May 22, 2023 • 37 mins
Today’s arraignment for Bryan Kohberger will be the first time the accused killer has been in court since his initial appearance after his arrest.
Kohberger was indicted last week as a grand jury found there was sufficient evidence to move forward with formal charges. That evidence will not be revealed at this hearing. Kohberger will be required to enter a plea on the 5 charges against him, four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary.
During the arraignment, the judge will reiterate Kohberger’s rights and read the charges against him, asking for a plea on each charge. In Idaho, there are only two pleas, guilty or not guilty, and a date for trial will be set. If Kohberger refuses to enter a plea or fails to appear, the court will enter a not-guilty plea on his behalf. Kohberger’s attorney has repeatedly said his client looks forward to clearing his name.
New information has been uncovered in the days before the arraignment. Bryan Kohberger was involved in another crime that happened before the student murders. This incident reportedly involved a female co-worker at Washington State University, according to a Dateline Report. Someone allegedly broke into the woman's apartment and moved things around.
Instead of calling police, the co-worker called Kohberger, who suggested and helped her, install security cameras. The report says Kohberger was behind that break-in and used those cameras to spy on her.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Tara Malek - Bosie, ID Attorney and Co-owner of Smith + Malek, Former State and Federal Prosecutor; Twitter: @smith_malek
- Dr. Joni Johnston - Forensic psychologist and private investigator (performs risk and threat assessments on violent offenders); Author: “Serial Killers: 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask”
- Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, and Host of YouTube Channel, "The Interview Room"
- Bill Daly - Former FBI Investigator and Forensic Photography; Security Expert
- Dr. Jan Gorniak - Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV), Board Certified Forensic Pathologist
- Nicole Partin - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter; Twitter: @nicolepartin (Naples, FL)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. In just moments, we expect
Brian Coburger, charged in the murders, the brutal murders of
four Beautiful University Idaho students, will be in a court
(00:29):
of law to enter a plea. Why because in the
last days, a grand jury, a secret grand jury, has
met and handed down a trivial indictments. But that's not
enough for Brian Coburger. Because in the last days, we
also learned that Brian Coburger, remember the pH d, the
(00:56):
doctoral student in criminal justice, apparently installed surveillance video cameras
and a female colleague's home that he could tap into
any time he wanted. Let me throw a technical legal
(01:18):
term at you, perv I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
and Serrius XM one eleven. First of all, take a
listen to our friends at kri em So.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I just got off the phone with the Leaytak County
District Court Clerk's office. They told me a grand jury
indicted Brian Coburger on all counts. That means the grand
jury found there was enough evidence in the case for
it to go to trial. Now, Coburger will have his
arrayment on Monday at nine o'clock in the morning. That
is where he will likely enter his plea of either
guilty or not guilty. This grand jury process replaces the
(01:55):
preliminary hearing process that was scheduled for the end of June.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
That's what we know right now and more from our
friends at ABC, just hours away from Brian Coberger's official
arraignment for the murders of Kailee Gonsolves, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle,
and Ethan Chapin.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
The twenty eight year old suspect facing four counts of
murder in the first degree after his indictment by a
Leta County grand jury. Right now, although we seem to
have mounting evidence against mister Kohlberger, it's still anyone's game
because there's a lot of information that the defense is
going to hold and not release to the public. Coburger
is expected to plead not guilty. Authorities alleged Coburger orchestrated
(02:32):
and carried out the deadly attack and then returned to
work pursuing his PhD in criminology before making a cross
country trip home to Pennsylvania with his father a.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Lot of evidence the defense is going to withhold and
kp private. What does the defense have in their back
pocket any more? Women with surveillance cameras in their bathroom
and their dead and their kitchen and their bedroom with
me and all Star panel sins of what we know
right now? First of all, I want to go out
(03:03):
to Tara Malik out of Idaho, the jurisdiction where Coburger
is about to be arraigned, a former state federal prosecutor,
and you can find Tara at Smithmlick dot com. Tara,
thank you for being with us an arrayment. It sounds confusing,
it's not. The defendant is brought over from jail. If
(03:25):
they are on bond, they get a summons and they
come to court or else they're in bond forfeiter, and
they are taken to a podium. Their attorneys are with
them and they are read their formal charges, and at
that time they enter a plea of guilty or not guilty.
If they won't speak, their lawyer can enter the plea
for them, and if they refuse to do that, then
(03:49):
the judge will enter a not guilty plea on their behalf.
What do you expect at the arrangement. You're a veteran
trial lawyer.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
What about it, Tara, Well, I think we are going
to see a very boring process. Most likely he's going
to show up with his attorney, Ann Taylor. He'll enter
a guilty or not guilty please. You know, he may
have some interesting body language. It'll be interesting to say
if he has any facial expressions during the hearing, but
(04:19):
it'll be rather straightforward, like you said, Nancy.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You know Chris mcdonnet joining me, Director the Cold Case Foundation,
former homicide detective, host of the interview Room, and you
can find him at the Coldcase Foundation dot org. Chris,
thank you for being with us. I am not found
one thing about this investigation to be the least bit routine, boring.
(04:48):
As expected, nothing has happened the way one would expect
it to happen, and that's after I guess I handled
close to ten thousand cases either investigating pleading out trials.
When you're in a major metropolitan city handling felonies day in,
(05:09):
day out, that's not unheard of. There will be many
other people, most likely on the arrangment list. Typically, well,
in big cities, you'll have arrangements throughout the week. We
would typically have them twice a week, with one hundred
and fifty new cases on the on the arrayment calendar
each day. So when I talk about what's happening at arrangment,
(05:34):
this could be special set for Coburger, just Coburger, but
you never know what Coburger is going to do.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 6 (05:45):
McDonough absolutely, Nancy, and we have been talking about this
right on your show for months now, and every opportunity
that he gets it is always a surprise relationship to
if it's his legal team, you know, putting the affidavits
together to kind of circumvent the gag order. We now
(06:06):
find out that information was pretty much a tactic, and
now we have this other information that's floated to the top.
It won't surprise me if he raises his eyebrows just
for the attention, because he needs that attention. It's part
of his makeup right now, you know.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
It's another interesting thing.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And I to go back out to Charle Malleck, high
profile lawyer joining us out of the Coburger jurisdiction of Idaho.
For so long we were told there was going to
be a preliminary hearing and I started screaming at the
get go, don't do it, don't do it.
Speaker 5 (06:44):
Don't do a.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Preliminary hearing, because a preliminary hearing serves the same function
as a grand jury proceeding, which is held in private.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
Do we have to say the name OJ.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Simpson preliminary hearing, which was a huge orcus the states
witnesses were really not ready to undergo cross examination as
if they.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
Were at a jury trial.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
A preliminary hearing of grandjury hearing is just to put
enough evidence up for a judge to say, yes, I see,
there's an issue of fact. You brought on this evidence
such as the DNA found on the knife sheath that
matches Coburger. Coburger says he wasn't there. He's not guilty,
So that's an issue of fact, and the jury is
(07:30):
the sole judge of the facts.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
That's all it's supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
But somehow preliminary hearings somehow get out of control every
single time they happen.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Tara, Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
I mean, every time you open it up into this
full kind of adversarial process you're going to have, you're
going to have things happen that happened during trial, you
can't predict perfectly what every witness is going to say.
You know, you don't know what the defense will try
and elicit out of them. So I think the best
(08:03):
way to go in these types of cases is grand
jury proceeding. There's no reason why you shouldn't do a
grand jury. Like you said, it's in private. You know,
the defense gets a transcript of it later on they
can attack it if they think the prosecutor did something wrong.
So there's still that due process element. But to open
it up to this full addressllual, you're going to get
(08:25):
the same issues that are kind of coming up or
started to come up in Coburger, where defense is going
to demand all sorts of you know, information prior to
the preliminary hearing and move to compel that information. We
haven't even gotten to discovery really yet.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, And when Taro Malick is saying discovery, what that
means is that before you go to trial strike because
you already start putting up evidence. The state has to
hand over, for instance, all scientific reports like DNA fingerprints, fibers,
shape prints.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
Anything that went to the lab. They have to handover.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Defendant statements, they have to handover names and addresses of
all the witnesses, plus a witness list. All that has
to be handed over by the state to the defense,
and in many jurisdictions the defense has to hand over
limited information to the state, so nobody is ambushed at trial.
So it's truly a trial based on the evidence, not
(09:27):
on ambush techniques. Guys, this is what's happening right now.
Coburger expected in a courtroom at any minute to enter
a plea of guilty or not guilty, to have his
charges formally read out loud in a court of law.
We're probably going to hear a flory of motions announced.
The defense, I'm sure, is going to want a slew
(09:49):
of motions to be heard, and then we begin setting
down the groundwork for the trial. We are also learning
at this hour that Coburger is an out accused of
planting video cameras that he could access and a colleague
a female colleague's place. But first take listen to Aaron
(10:11):
McLoughlin NBC.
Speaker 7 (10:12):
Brian Coburger, the man charged with stabbing four college students
to death, now indicted.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
By a grand jury.
Speaker 7 (10:19):
The indictment includes four counts of murder in the first degree,
and one count of burglary. If found guilty, he could
be sentenced to death. Coburger has yet to enter a plea,
but his previous attorney said he believes he'll be exonerated.
The indictment follows his December arrest at his family home
in Pennsylvania, more than forty five days after Matti Mogan,
Kaylee Gonsalvez, Xana Karnodle, and Ethan Chapin were found brutally
(10:44):
murdered in this college house.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Kri And reporting that the victims' families have issues with
what's happening right now.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Listen. Gray says he found out about the indictment. Up
until then, he says, the Gonzalvez family has been preparing
to see Coburger in June. A timeline you already had
a problem with.
Speaker 8 (11:02):
Once you charge someone with an information, you normally a
plumb their hearings within a couple of weeks out, and
they said six months out, you know, And I don't
think that really was of you know, It's that's hard
for a victims families, for all the victims families, that's hard.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Prime Stories with Nancy Grace to doctor Johnson joining as
forensic psychologists private investigator, performs assessments on violent offenders and
is the author of Serial Killers.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
One hundred and one questions.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
True crime fans ask doctor Joni Johnson, thank you for
being with us. I hear what the victims are saying.
It seems as if they were prepared to attend the
preliminary hearing. Instead, there is a grand jury proceeding that's
already happened, which I think is in the best interest
(12:09):
of the state and the victims families.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
And they say that this is difficult.
Speaker 9 (12:16):
I can't even imagine how difficult.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Here's the reality.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
The grand jury move was the best thing strategically for
the state and for the victim's families. I think basically
anything at this juncture is going to be really hard
on the victim's family. Talking about the murders having to
see Coburger in court, going to a preliminary hearing, that
there's been a grand jury indictment. Anything is going to
(12:43):
be hard for them because they're having the worst time
that they will ever have in their lives.
Speaker 9 (12:48):
You're absolutely right, and I think that just shows probably
the disconnect between what is best strategically from a legal
standpoint and what the family's feeling, and you're absolutely right.
I mean, this is the worst case scenario. They've had
no control over anything in their lives. They've lost the
most important people in their lives, and now they're getting surprised,
you know, and so nothing is going to feel good.
(13:10):
Everything is going to be painful, and I'm sure every
bump in the road for them, and of course a
surprise is going to be a bump in the road
no matter how much the big picture says, yes, this
is the best thing. It must feel like again once again,
the rug is being pulled out from under them.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, this is a lose lose scenario for the state
because no matter what they do, it's going to hurt
the victims, their feelings, their emotions, and there's no way
around it. I want to play that one more time,
exactly what the victims and and this is specifically the
gonsalvast family. They are the ones speaking out against what's happening. Listen,
(13:49):
Gray says he found out about the indictment. Up until then,
he says, the Gonzalvez family has been preparing to see
Coburger in June, a timeline he already had a problem with.
Speaker 8 (13:58):
Once you charge someone with an on an information, you
normally plumb their hearings within a couple of weeks out,
and they said six months out, you know, and I
don't think that really was of you know, it's that's
hard for a victim's families, for all the victims families,
that's hard.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Okay, someone is not explaining this properly to the victims
family number one, and Tara jump in if I've got
the Idaho law incorrectly. An information is when a prosecutor
gets their notepad all on their own and they went, okay,
I've read the police report. I'm charging Coburger with four
(14:38):
council murder, and that's the formal charge. You don't want that. Yes,
it's acceptable in a court of law, but you don't
want that on appeal. A grand jury is much more reliable.
A grand jury of say thirty or forty people, hearing
the evidence and hearing witnesses is much more reliable and
(14:59):
solid on appeal when it's being attacked by a defense lawyer,
then a single prosecutor going eh, I think I'll go with.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
Murder and four accounts. No, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So initially drawing this up as an information was basically
a placeholder. I think they knew all along they were
going to have a grand jury.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
So that needs to be explained to the family.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
We want a conviction, as victims' families, we want a
conviction that will hold up on appeal, not a quick
answer that we'll do for today. We want something lasting,
that is tried and true, that can stand the test
of fire on appeal when it is questioned and poked
and prodded. So the state absolutely did the right thing,
(15:48):
not proceeding on what it's called an information or an
informational They went to a grand jury. Now again, the
reason not to have a preliminary hearing is because it
subjects your witnesses is to cross examination far in advance
to the jury trial. Why do that? Why put them
through that? And why show the defanced your whole playbook at.
Speaker 5 (16:09):
A preliminary hearing?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Again, does anybody remember, I mean, Chris mcdunno, do you
remember the Orenthal James sent some preliminary hearing. It truly
was like a circus. There should have been one witness,
the lead detective, who can speak hearsay at a grand
jury and that's okay at a grand jury. Instead it
(16:32):
turned into a debacle. We don't want a debacle in
the Coburger trial.
Speaker 6 (16:37):
One percent agree with you, Nancy that you know, in
the Oja trial, as we remember, you know, you're one
hundred percent right, it did turn into you know, it's
just this unbelievable flow of information going one way. And
I think one of the challenges that the PD has
(16:57):
had here, I mean from an investigative aspect is, you know,
they really do need to assign a liaison. I don't
know what they have or haven't, but it sounds like
they haven't. And you know, you've got to do that
immediately when these high profile things go, you know, take place,
and you've got to get everybody in the same room
and say, look, we need to go into that courtroom
(17:19):
and you know, armed arm in arm with the district attorney.
I mean, how many families have you seen in your career, Nancy,
where you're fighting the family and you're trying to fight
the defendant at the same time.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
That is awful. Chris McDonough.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
The family needs to be in lockstep with the prosecutor,
and that is not the family's responsibility. You're right, there
needs to be a liaison because remember what I just
played you from the Gonsolvest family lawyer Gray Gray found
out about the indictment through an email. That's all wrong
(17:57):
right there.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
Yeah, that's that's horre.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Prosecutor or the liaison that you're referring to, should have
called the family look and said, look, we're having a
grand jury, and this is why this is the best thing.
Because I'm miss screaming since day one. They do not
need to do a preliminary hearing. N Oh, just fraught
with danger. Guys, that's not the only thing happening in
the news right now regarding Coburger. As we wait for
(18:20):
him to come into the courtroom, let's take a listen
to our friend Kelly Beeson.
Speaker 10 (18:26):
Rian Coberger was involved in another crime that happened before
these murders. Now, this incident involved his female coworker at
Washington State University, where someone allegedly broke into the woman's
apartment and moved things around. Instead of calling police, the
coworker called Coburger, who suggested and helped her install security cameras.
But the report says Coburger was behind that break in
(18:50):
and use those cameras to spy on her. It just
gets worse It's not that he just helped his doll
these security video cameras.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I actually think he faked a break in to get
her to get the cameras.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
It's very intricate in the planning. Joining me right now.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Nicole Parton. You can
find her on Twitter at Nicole Parton. Nicole, What happened?
Speaker 11 (19:20):
So Nancy? Brian Colberger, he befriended this colleague of his
at Washington State University, and then it's alleged that he
went to her home, broke into her home and would
move things around. He didn't steal anything, but imagine going
into your home and now your sofa is moved from
one place to the other, or your phone or things
(19:40):
that you've had placed in a particular spot or moved around.
It spooked the lady. So she comes back to work
and she talks to her friend Brian, and he of
course suggests that he come over and he saved the
day when he got there. His suggestion was surveillance. You
need cameras installed in your home and get guess what,
(20:00):
I'm the guy for the job. I can install those.
It's alleged that he installed the security surveillance videos, and
because he had access now to the passwords and to
her WiFi, he was able to log in and spy
on her throughout her home.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Every person in this studio has a is making a
face right now, and I know it horrible face. Uh,
and it's very very I believe probed to proves something.
Chris McDonough that this alleged incident of him moving the
woman's objects around inside of her apartment to make her afraid.
(20:42):
Then she comes and tells him at work, and just
as he is expected for, he expects this.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
Scenario to happen.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
He then, as Nicole Parton says, saves the Dan goes
let's install video cams. Finish that sentence, so I can
snoop and spy on you and watch you change clothes
and take a shower whenever I feel like it. Here's
the critical part as it relates to the four murders.
This incident allegedly took place just a few months before
the four murders.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
So what does that mean to you?
Speaker 6 (21:16):
To Chris McDonough, well, there's a high probability this is
information that indicates pre incident behavior. And you know a
Leffard doesn't lose its spots, right, Nancy. When we've talked
about this, you've talked about this, You've stood on that
driveway looking in look through those windows in the back
(21:38):
of that house, and I think you and I both
had the shame feeling of, oh my gosh, this is
so exposed here. And now we learn that he potentially
allegedly used his cloud based technology skills to go into
a colleague house and up the ante, as Greg Cooper says,
(22:00):
and it just makes you, It just puts chills down
your spine of what other incidents are we going to
find about learn about that this guy was, you know,
really deep into his planning and the fact that he
could move those items around potentially if it's him, and
(22:21):
have that control over her. And then ultimately we now
get to the homicides. You know, within a month or
two after this particular incident's reporter.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Mini would argue it the installing of the cameras and
the spying on the woman in various states of undress,
puttering around her apartment doing whatever people do in private,
was simply a step in the progression leading up to
the four murders, where many people believe he spied on
(22:53):
the three female victims end up killing a fourth as well,
Ethan Chapin. But the progression to step in the progression, guys,
take a listen to our friend at NBC, Keith Morrison.
Speaker 12 (23:09):
Our source says Coberger had befriended a woman in his
graduate criminology cohort. The woman had returned to her apartment
one evening and found some things amiss, items moved from
where she'd left them in the kitchen, in the bath.
Quite bizarre. So what did she do?
Speaker 4 (23:30):
Well?
Speaker 12 (23:31):
Our source tells us that since nothing had been taken,
the woman did not call the police. Instead, she called
her new friend, Brian Coberger, who our source says, volunteer
to come over and take a look, and he soon
recommended the installation of a video security system, and he
Coburger volunteered to do the work.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I mean, doctor Joni Johnston, forensic psychologist, can you believe that?
Speaker 9 (23:57):
Well, I'm fortunately I can't believe that. I mean, it
just speaks to so many things about him in terms
of his neediousness and his ability to act. I mean,
this is somebody who befriends a coworker and pretends to
be this nice guy that's up a situation where she's
vulnerable and then takes advantage of it. And I think
it definitely does speak to him progressing. I mean, this
is a guy who even when he was an undergraduate,
(24:19):
people were saying he was staring at them, and there's
issues of stalking and those kinds of things, and potentially
going to the victims homes and looking in. I mean,
this is somebody who just really does get off on
being in control and not people don't even have to
know that he's in control. It's enough for him to
know it.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, just take a listen to our friends at NBC.
This is Keith Marson.
Speaker 12 (24:40):
After the installation. Our spur says police believe Colberger, if
he was close enough to the woman's apartment, could pull
up the cameras himself for a look, because Coldberger knew
the woman's Wi Fi passwords. Our source tells us that
Brian Kolberger is now considered a strong suspect in the
(25:01):
hearing that retired FBI profiler Greg Cooper offers this theory.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
What does that say to you? I would expect that
he orchestrated the whole.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Thing, Okay, orchestrating a break in, not to take anything
but to manipulate items move them around inside his female
colleagues apartment, knowing she would come tell him about it
and he could offer to put in a surveillance system.
Joining me right now is Bill Daily, former FBI investigator
(25:34):
and expert in forensic photography security expert Bill Daily.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
Have you ever heard anything like this, well, Nanjie.
Speaker 13 (25:42):
And unfortunately, yes, I mean it is something that over
the years, let's say specifically with somebody manipulating someone, but
people going in and putting cameras in to be observing
individuals and doing that in a way that doesn't suggest
it was a crime preceding it, meaning that in this case,
he didn't go in and rob the apartment, which would have,
(26:03):
as as mentioned in the story just a few months ago,
would have precipitated more police involvement, but but yet relied
on him then as kind of this kind of savior
to come in and allegedly, you know, help this individual.
So I have heard of cases and it worked on
cases in the past where where they have been surreptitious
placement of cameras for various purposes, and so it's not
(26:27):
surprising that in this particular case, and I'm going to
kind of draw a little bit on from my my
friends and the behavioral science part of the FBI, But
this does demonstrate and could demonstrate leakage and leakage in
this in this phase is really talking about kind of
this progression, this kind of behavioral kind of uh kind
of progression towards potentially those crimes that took place involving
(26:51):
these students. So I think what we're all talking about
here is that it's not just creepy, it's not just unsettling,
but it does go to a kind of a state
of mind and a manner in which she would behave
by perhaps watching someone at a distance. And maybe that
also ties into some of the reports Nancy, that we
heard of him canvassing the home of the victims and
(27:13):
doing some observation remotely and having actually been there to
know what the layout of the flow plan was.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
You just mentioned, not just creepy, not just un settling.
I agree.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
In fact, I find it primitive because if you really
analyze what he's accused of doing, Bill Day, you see
a fingerprint, you see a similar modus operandi method of operation,
watching your victim at a distance, driving close enough to
(27:46):
her home, her apartment, to be part of her WiFi,
logging in possibly from remote, to watch her whenever he
felt like it, praying on some one he knew, much
as he thought he knew the victims at Idaho University
(28:06):
of Idaho from contacting them digitally, spying on them, showing
up at a restaurant where they were being around them.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
The victims.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Also young females, likely similar in appearance and age, in
the same area, in a similar housing situation, connected to
him tangentially that he talks. In my mind, it's an
outright similar transaction, thought jump Chris, Right, This.
Speaker 6 (28:47):
Is all in behavior very consistent with obviously dispossession, right,
And it's kind of a build up for them. I mean,
there's I've talked to suspects that first incident. It's almost
as if, you know, the most exciting part was not
necessarily the kill, but it was building up to that kill.
(29:09):
And one of the things that we talked about on
your show a while ago was the fact that the
first thing the defense did when they went into that house,
remember what they took, the first thing that smart TV. Okay,
and that's on their affidavit, and the cops stood there
and said, okay, all they did. You know, they took receipts,
(29:32):
they took a couple other things, but they took that
TV out of there. That makes one wonder what do
they know and what's on that TV? I know they
did a hard drive dump on it through the through
the the what's it called the Firefox or whatever, the
Amazon stick or something to that effect. So they did
(29:54):
a hard dive or a dump on it, but they
got that TV. And so you and I have talked
about this. You just wonder what in the world, you know,
was he really doing from his own apartment that his
team comes in and says, let's get this quickly.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I want to give a uh, let me just say,
I want to refresh your recollection as it relates.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
To what this is all about.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
This is about Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, Xana kernodle In
Gellico'savice Kelly, Zana, Madison and Ethan lost their lives brutally
(31:00):
Prime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 5 (31:05):
With me.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Doctor Janet Gorniac, renowned medical examiner joining us out of
Clark County Office of the Medical Examiner.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
That's Las Vegas.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Doctor Gorniac, could you remind us of the brutality inflicted
on these four young, possibly sleeping university students.
Speaker 9 (31:31):
You know, you keep going back to the oj trial, right,
And when I first heard about this, I too, along
with other other people, who was surprised that one person
was able to accomplish, you know, these injuries on all
these people, whether they were sleeping or not. I'm just
imagining how stealth he was getting into the house and
(31:56):
just brutally, you know in size who established our force
injuries on these on these young victims. And I just
can't I just can't imagine obviously knowing that the brutality
that he was able to inflict on each of these
young people without any fight back, that makes any sense.
(32:19):
And I, like I said, I was shocked that one
person was able to do this.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
The degree brutality was immeasurable. What were the injuries these
four victims sustained, Doctor Gorniac.
Speaker 9 (32:32):
They had multiple start force injuries. So when you talk
about the stab wounds and size wounds, so obviously in
cases like this, it's just a lot of blood loss. So,
like I said, it's it's unimaginable that they could have
all these wounds about their body without being able to
(32:55):
wake up or fight back. It must have been so fast,
you know. I mean, I'm just trying to figure out
how fast and rapid it could have been to be
able to to injure these young people like that. And
it's interesting because I hear you talking about the preminary
hearing versus a grand jury, and actually from where I
(33:17):
sit because as an independent witness, even though most of
the times we are called by the prosecuting the prosecutor,
but I myself prefer the pliminary hearing as an expert
because then you know where the defense is coming from.
And it's interesting to see how we're different players in
(33:39):
the whole legal system sit and how we approach it differently.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Oh Mett, Doctor Gorniac, I understand what you're saying as
a witness at trial, yep, that you want to know
what's going to happen, and you can at trial, and
you can find that out at a preliminary trial on
your own cross examination. But most witnesses, doctor Garniac, I know,
(34:05):
and I'm not even being a tiny bit sarcastic, doctor Garniac.
Most of us are just mere mortals that probably would
not hold up to cross examination as well as you, right,
and as the prosecutor, I don't want to put a
let's just say, a fearful witness or an easily intimidated witness,
an easily confused witness up on the stand, so the
(34:27):
defense can have not one but two cracks Adam at
preliminary and the trial.
Speaker 5 (34:33):
I mean you would like make you.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Know, child's play of a defense lawyer on cross exam.
I'd like to see that cross exam myself. I get
a bag of popcorn for that. But for most witnesses,
you don't want to subject them to two cross exams.
Speaker 9 (34:48):
And that's what I would say. I mean, so for me,
as like you said, as the witness, absolutely, but I
can only imagine, as someone who's intimately involved in the case,
how mentally challenging and you know, I mean devastating that
that could have lasing effects.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I mean, having testified doctor Garneac at my fiance's murder trial,
I know I wouldn't want to do it twice. I
absolutely would not want to do it twice.
Speaker 9 (35:14):
I agree, And so I see both sides. I see
both sides, and I just want.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
To you know what's interesting, But jumping off what doctor
Garneac just said, Chris McDonough, I'm just thinking about what
the witnesses are going to have to go through at
the actual trial. But I'm thinking about this female witness,
the colleague that was tricked into having Brian Coburger of
all people in small a security system in her home,
the video cameras. You know what christmacdonna think about it.
(35:39):
It was building in him even at that time. This
is just like a tiny taste of what he was
capable of. She should thank her lucky stars, thank Heaven
that she was not murdered, this female colleague of his.
Speaker 6 (35:54):
Yeah. Absolutely, And so when we think through that, he
is fantasizing in relationship to you know, the big event.
You know, as doctor Gary Bricado says, you know, he's
he's eventually going to get to the place where he's
the punisher. And you know, imagine sitting having her sit
(36:18):
in that prelim and in front of him, not knowing
what he's thinking about her while she's on that stand.
Remember in the oj trial, Barry Sheck had doctor you know,
the criminalist Fong on the stand and every time, you know,
he didn't say he put two sets of pairs of
(36:40):
gloves on Barry Sheck would say what about that mister Fong,
And that resonated through the law enforcement community back in
that time because I was there where we all started
talking about not getting fonged.
Speaker 5 (36:57):
Oh my goodness, I've never heard that before.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
I remember what about that mister Fong, but I've never
heard about not getting fun I'm hearing right now. Everyone
is headed to the courtroom for the formal arrayment.
Speaker 5 (37:10):
We'll bring it to you as we hear it. Goodbye, friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. In just moments, we expect
Brian Coburger, charged in the murders, the brutal murders of
four Beautiful University Idaho students, will be in a court
(00:29):
of law to enter a plea. Why because in the
last days, a grand jury, a secret grand jury, has
met and handed down a trivial indictments. But that's not
enough for Brian Coburger. Because in the last days, we
also learned that Brian Coburger, remember the pH d, the
(00:56):
doctoral student in criminal justice, apparently installed surveillance video cameras
and a female colleague's home that he could tap into
any time he wanted. Let me throw a technical legal
(01:18):
term at you, perv I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
and Serrius XM one eleven. First of all, take a
listen to our friends at kri em So.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I just got off the phone with the Leaytak County
District Court Clerk's office. They told me a grand jury
indicted Brian Coburger on all counts. That means the grand
jury found there was enough evidence in the case for
it to go to trial. Now, Coburger will have his
arrayment on Monday at nine o'clock in the morning. That
is where he will likely enter his plea of either
guilty or not guilty. This grand jury process replaces the
(01:55):
preliminary hearing process that was scheduled for the end of June.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
That's what we know right now and more from our
friends at ABC, just hours away from Brian Coberger's official
arraignment for the murders of Kailee Gonsolves, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle,
and Ethan Chapin.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
The twenty eight year old suspect facing four counts of
murder in the first degree after his indictment by a
Leta County grand jury. Right now, although we seem to
have mounting evidence against mister Kohlberger, it's still anyone's game
because there's a lot of information that the defense is
going to hold and not release to the public. Coburger
is expected to plead not guilty. Authorities alleged Coburger orchestrated
(02:32):
and carried out the deadly attack and then returned to
work pursuing his PhD in criminology before making a cross
country trip home to Pennsylvania with his father a.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Lot of evidence the defense is going to withhold and
kp private. What does the defense have in their back
pocket any more? Women with surveillance cameras in their bathroom
and their dead and their kitchen and their bedroom with
me and all Star panel sins of what we know
right now? First of all, I want to go out
(03:03):
to Tara Malik out of Idaho, the jurisdiction where Coburger
is about to be arraigned, a former state federal prosecutor,
and you can find Tara at Smithmlick dot com. Tara,
thank you for being with us an arrayment. It sounds confusing,
it's not. The defendant is brought over from jail. If
(03:25):
they are on bond, they get a summons and they
come to court or else they're in bond forfeiter, and
they are taken to a podium. Their attorneys are with
them and they are read their formal charges, and at
that time they enter a plea of guilty or not guilty.
If they won't speak, their lawyer can enter the plea
for them, and if they refuse to do that, then
(03:49):
the judge will enter a not guilty plea on their behalf.
What do you expect at the arrangement. You're a veteran
trial lawyer.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
What about it, Tara, Well, I think we are going
to see a very boring process. Most likely he's going
to show up with his attorney, Ann Taylor. He'll enter
a guilty or not guilty please. You know, he may
have some interesting body language. It'll be interesting to say
if he has any facial expressions during the hearing, but
(04:19):
it'll be rather straightforward, like you said, Nancy.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You know Chris mcdonnet joining me, Director the Cold Case Foundation,
former homicide detective, host of the interview Room, and you
can find him at the Coldcase Foundation dot org. Chris,
thank you for being with us. I am not found
one thing about this investigation to be the least bit routine, boring.
(04:48):
As expected, nothing has happened the way one would expect
it to happen, and that's after I guess I handled
close to ten thousand cases either investigating pleading out trials.
When you're in a major metropolitan city handling felonies day in,
(05:09):
day out, that's not unheard of. There will be many
other people, most likely on the arrangment list. Typically, well,
in big cities, you'll have arrangements throughout the week. We
would typically have them twice a week, with one hundred
and fifty new cases on the on the arrayment calendar
each day. So when I talk about what's happening at arrangment,
(05:34):
this could be special set for Coburger, just Coburger, but
you never know what Coburger is going to do.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 6 (05:45):
McDonough absolutely, Nancy, and we have been talking about this
right on your show for months now, and every opportunity
that he gets it is always a surprise relationship to
if it's his legal team, you know, putting the affidavits
together to kind of circumvent the gag order. We now
(06:06):
find out that information was pretty much a tactic, and
now we have this other information that's floated to the top.
It won't surprise me if he raises his eyebrows just
for the attention, because he needs that attention. It's part
of his makeup right now, you know.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
It's another interesting thing.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And I to go back out to Charle Malleck, high
profile lawyer joining us out of the Coburger jurisdiction of Idaho.
For so long we were told there was going to
be a preliminary hearing and I started screaming at the
get go, don't do it, don't do it.
Speaker 5 (06:44):
Don't do a.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Preliminary hearing, because a preliminary hearing serves the same function
as a grand jury proceeding, which is held in private.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
Do we have to say the name OJ.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Simpson preliminary hearing, which was a huge orcus the states
witnesses were really not ready to undergo cross examination as
if they.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
Were at a jury trial.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
A preliminary hearing of grandjury hearing is just to put
enough evidence up for a judge to say, yes, I see,
there's an issue of fact. You brought on this evidence
such as the DNA found on the knife sheath that
matches Coburger. Coburger says he wasn't there. He's not guilty,
So that's an issue of fact, and the jury is
(07:30):
the sole judge of the facts.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
That's all it's supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
But somehow preliminary hearings somehow get out of control every
single time they happen.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Tara, Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
I mean, every time you open it up into this
full kind of adversarial process you're going to have, you're
going to have things happen that happened during trial, you
can't predict perfectly what every witness is going to say.
You know, you don't know what the defense will try
and elicit out of them. So I think the best
(08:03):
way to go in these types of cases is grand
jury proceeding. There's no reason why you shouldn't do a
grand jury. Like you said, it's in private. You know,
the defense gets a transcript of it later on they
can attack it if they think the prosecutor did something wrong.
So there's still that due process element. But to open
it up to this full addressllual, you're going to get
(08:25):
the same issues that are kind of coming up or
started to come up in Coburger, where defense is going
to demand all sorts of you know, information prior to
the preliminary hearing and move to compel that information. We
haven't even gotten to discovery really yet.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, And when Taro Malick is saying discovery, what that
means is that before you go to trial strike because
you already start putting up evidence. The state has to
hand over, for instance, all scientific reports like DNA fingerprints, fibers,
shape prints.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
Anything that went to the lab. They have to handover.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Defendant statements, they have to handover names and addresses of
all the witnesses, plus a witness list. All that has
to be handed over by the state to the defense,
and in many jurisdictions the defense has to hand over
limited information to the state, so nobody is ambushed at trial.
So it's truly a trial based on the evidence, not
(09:27):
on ambush techniques. Guys, this is what's happening right now.
Coburger expected in a courtroom at any minute to enter
a plea of guilty or not guilty, to have his
charges formally read out loud in a court of law.
We're probably going to hear a flory of motions announced.
The defense, I'm sure, is going to want a slew
(09:49):
of motions to be heard, and then we begin setting
down the groundwork for the trial. We are also learning
at this hour that Coburger is an out accused of
planting video cameras that he could access and a colleague
a female colleague's place. But first take listen to Aaron
(10:11):
McLoughlin NBC.
Speaker 7 (10:12):
Brian Coburger, the man charged with stabbing four college students
to death, now indicted.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
By a grand jury.
Speaker 7 (10:19):
The indictment includes four counts of murder in the first degree,
and one count of burglary. If found guilty, he could
be sentenced to death. Coburger has yet to enter a plea,
but his previous attorney said he believes he'll be exonerated.
The indictment follows his December arrest at his family home
in Pennsylvania, more than forty five days after Matti Mogan,
Kaylee Gonsalvez, Xana Karnodle, and Ethan Chapin were found brutally
(10:44):
murdered in this college house.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Kri And reporting that the victims' families have issues with
what's happening right now.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Listen. Gray says he found out about the indictment. Up
until then, he says, the Gonzalvez family has been preparing
to see Coburger in June. A timeline you already had
a problem with.
Speaker 8 (11:02):
Once you charge someone with an information, you normally a
plumb their hearings within a couple of weeks out, and
they said six months out, you know, And I don't
think that really was of you know, It's that's hard
for a victims families, for all the victims families, that's hard.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Prime Stories with Nancy Grace to doctor Johnson joining as
forensic psychologists private investigator, performs assessments on violent offenders and
is the author of Serial Killers.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
One hundred and one questions.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
True crime fans ask doctor Joni Johnson, thank you for
being with us. I hear what the victims are saying.
It seems as if they were prepared to attend the
preliminary hearing. Instead, there is a grand jury proceeding that's
already happened, which I think is in the best interest
(12:09):
of the state and the victims families.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
And they say that this is difficult.
Speaker 9 (12:16):
I can't even imagine how difficult.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Here's the reality.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
The grand jury move was the best thing strategically for
the state and for the victim's families. I think basically
anything at this juncture is going to be really hard
on the victim's family. Talking about the murders having to
see Coburger in court, going to a preliminary hearing, that
there's been a grand jury indictment. Anything is going to
(12:43):
be hard for them because they're having the worst time
that they will ever have in their lives.
Speaker 9 (12:48):
You're absolutely right, and I think that just shows probably
the disconnect between what is best strategically from a legal
standpoint and what the family's feeling, and you're absolutely right.
I mean, this is the worst case scenario. They've had
no control over anything in their lives. They've lost the
most important people in their lives, and now they're getting surprised,
you know, and so nothing is going to feel good.
(13:10):
Everything is going to be painful, and I'm sure every
bump in the road for them, and of course a
surprise is going to be a bump in the road
no matter how much the big picture says, yes, this
is the best thing. It must feel like again once again,
the rug is being pulled out from under them.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, this is a lose lose scenario for the state
because no matter what they do, it's going to hurt
the victims, their feelings, their emotions, and there's no way
around it. I want to play that one more time,
exactly what the victims and and this is specifically the
gonsalvast family. They are the ones speaking out against what's happening. Listen,
(13:49):
Gray says he found out about the indictment. Up until then,
he says, the Gonzalvez family has been preparing to see
Coburger in June, a timeline he already had a problem with.
Speaker 8 (13:58):
Once you charge someone with an on an information, you
normally plumb their hearings within a couple of weeks out,
and they said six months out, you know, and I
don't think that really was of you know, it's that's
hard for a victim's families, for all the victims families,
that's hard.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Okay, someone is not explaining this properly to the victims
family number one, and Tara jump in if I've got
the Idaho law incorrectly. An information is when a prosecutor
gets their notepad all on their own and they went, okay,
I've read the police report. I'm charging Coburger with four
(14:38):
council murder, and that's the formal charge. You don't want that. Yes,
it's acceptable in a court of law, but you don't
want that on appeal. A grand jury is much more reliable.
A grand jury of say thirty or forty people, hearing
the evidence and hearing witnesses is much more reliable and
(14:59):
solid on appeal when it's being attacked by a defense lawyer,
then a single prosecutor going eh, I think I'll go with.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
Murder and four accounts. No, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So initially drawing this up as an information was basically
a placeholder. I think they knew all along they were
going to have a grand jury.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
So that needs to be explained to the family.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
We want a conviction, as victims' families, we want a
conviction that will hold up on appeal, not a quick
answer that we'll do for today. We want something lasting,
that is tried and true, that can stand the test
of fire on appeal when it is questioned and poked
and prodded. So the state absolutely did the right thing,
(15:48):
not proceeding on what it's called an information or an
informational They went to a grand jury. Now again, the
reason not to have a preliminary hearing is because it
subjects your witnesses is to cross examination far in advance
to the jury trial. Why do that? Why put them
through that? And why show the defanced your whole playbook at.
Speaker 5 (16:09):
A preliminary hearing?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Again, does anybody remember, I mean, Chris mcdunno, do you
remember the Orenthal James sent some preliminary hearing. It truly
was like a circus. There should have been one witness,
the lead detective, who can speak hearsay at a grand
jury and that's okay at a grand jury. Instead it
(16:32):
turned into a debacle. We don't want a debacle in
the Coburger trial.
Speaker 6 (16:37):
One percent agree with you, Nancy that you know, in
the Oja trial, as we remember, you know, you're one
hundred percent right, it did turn into you know, it's
just this unbelievable flow of information going one way. And
I think one of the challenges that the PD has
(16:57):
had here, I mean from an investigative aspect is, you know,
they really do need to assign a liaison. I don't
know what they have or haven't, but it sounds like
they haven't. And you know, you've got to do that
immediately when these high profile things go, you know, take place,
and you've got to get everybody in the same room
and say, look, we need to go into that courtroom
(17:19):
and you know, armed arm in arm with the district attorney.
I mean, how many families have you seen in your career, Nancy,
where you're fighting the family and you're trying to fight
the defendant at the same time.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
That is awful. Chris McDonough.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
The family needs to be in lockstep with the prosecutor,
and that is not the family's responsibility. You're right, there
needs to be a liaison because remember what I just
played you from the Gonsolvest family lawyer Gray Gray found
out about the indictment through an email. That's all wrong
(17:57):
right there.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
Yeah, that's that's horre.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Prosecutor or the liaison that you're referring to, should have
called the family look and said, look, we're having a
grand jury, and this is why this is the best thing.
Because I'm miss screaming since day one. They do not
need to do a preliminary hearing. N Oh, just fraught
with danger. Guys, that's not the only thing happening in
the news right now regarding Coburger. As we wait for
(18:20):
him to come into the courtroom, let's take a listen
to our friend Kelly Beeson.
Speaker 10 (18:26):
Rian Coberger was involved in another crime that happened before
these murders. Now, this incident involved his female coworker at
Washington State University, where someone allegedly broke into the woman's
apartment and moved things around. Instead of calling police, the
coworker called Coburger, who suggested and helped her install security cameras.
But the report says Coburger was behind that break in
(18:50):
and use those cameras to spy on her. It just
gets worse It's not that he just helped his doll
these security video cameras.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I actually think he faked a break in to get
her to get the cameras.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
It's very intricate in the planning. Joining me right now.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Nicole Parton. You can
find her on Twitter at Nicole Parton. Nicole, What happened?
Speaker 11 (19:20):
So Nancy? Brian Colberger, he befriended this colleague of his
at Washington State University, and then it's alleged that he
went to her home, broke into her home and would
move things around. He didn't steal anything, but imagine going
into your home and now your sofa is moved from
one place to the other, or your phone or things
(19:40):
that you've had placed in a particular spot or moved around.
It spooked the lady. So she comes back to work
and she talks to her friend Brian, and he of
course suggests that he come over and he saved the
day when he got there. His suggestion was surveillance. You
need cameras installed in your home and get guess what,
(20:00):
I'm the guy for the job. I can install those.
It's alleged that he installed the security surveillance videos, and
because he had access now to the passwords and to
her WiFi, he was able to log in and spy
on her throughout her home.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Every person in this studio has a is making a
face right now, and I know it horrible face. Uh,
and it's very very I believe probed to proves something.
Chris McDonough that this alleged incident of him moving the
woman's objects around inside of her apartment to make her afraid.
(20:42):
Then she comes and tells him at work, and just
as he is expected for, he expects this.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
Scenario to happen.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
He then, as Nicole Parton says, saves the Dan goes
let's install video cams. Finish that sentence, so I can
snoop and spy on you and watch you change clothes
and take a shower whenever I feel like it. Here's
the critical part as it relates to the four murders.
This incident allegedly took place just a few months before
the four murders.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
So what does that mean to you?
Speaker 6 (21:16):
To Chris McDonough, well, there's a high probability this is
information that indicates pre incident behavior. And you know a
Leffard doesn't lose its spots, right, Nancy. When we've talked
about this, you've talked about this, You've stood on that
driveway looking in look through those windows in the back
(21:38):
of that house, and I think you and I both
had the shame feeling of, oh my gosh, this is
so exposed here. And now we learn that he potentially
allegedly used his cloud based technology skills to go into
a colleague house and up the ante, as Greg Cooper says,
(22:00):
and it just makes you, It just puts chills down
your spine of what other incidents are we going to
find about learn about that this guy was, you know,
really deep into his planning and the fact that he
could move those items around potentially if it's him, and
(22:21):
have that control over her. And then ultimately we now
get to the homicides. You know, within a month or
two after this particular incident's reporter.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Mini would argue it the installing of the cameras and
the spying on the woman in various states of undress,
puttering around her apartment doing whatever people do in private,
was simply a step in the progression leading up to
the four murders, where many people believe he spied on
(22:53):
the three female victims end up killing a fourth as well,
Ethan Chapin. But the progression to step in the progression, guys,
take a listen to our friend at NBC, Keith Morrison.
Speaker 12 (23:09):
Our source says Coberger had befriended a woman in his
graduate criminology cohort. The woman had returned to her apartment
one evening and found some things amiss, items moved from
where she'd left them in the kitchen, in the bath.
Quite bizarre. So what did she do?
Speaker 4 (23:30):
Well?
Speaker 12 (23:31):
Our source tells us that since nothing had been taken,
the woman did not call the police. Instead, she called
her new friend, Brian Coberger, who our source says, volunteer
to come over and take a look, and he soon
recommended the installation of a video security system, and he
Coburger volunteered to do the work.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I mean, doctor Joni Johnston, forensic psychologist, can you believe that?
Speaker 9 (23:57):
Well, I'm fortunately I can't believe that. I mean, it
just speaks to so many things about him in terms
of his neediousness and his ability to act. I mean,
this is somebody who befriends a coworker and pretends to
be this nice guy that's up a situation where she's
vulnerable and then takes advantage of it. And I think
it definitely does speak to him progressing. I mean, this
is a guy who even when he was an undergraduate,
(24:19):
people were saying he was staring at them, and there's
issues of stalking and those kinds of things, and potentially
going to the victims homes and looking in. I mean,
this is somebody who just really does get off on
being in control and not people don't even have to
know that he's in control. It's enough for him to
know it.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, just take a listen to our friends at NBC.
This is Keith Marson.
Speaker 12 (24:40):
After the installation. Our spur says police believe Colberger, if
he was close enough to the woman's apartment, could pull
up the cameras himself for a look, because Coldberger knew
the woman's Wi Fi passwords. Our source tells us that
Brian Kolberger is now considered a strong suspect in the
(25:01):
hearing that retired FBI profiler Greg Cooper offers this theory.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
What does that say to you? I would expect that
he orchestrated the whole.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Thing, Okay, orchestrating a break in, not to take anything
but to manipulate items move them around inside his female
colleagues apartment, knowing she would come tell him about it
and he could offer to put in a surveillance system.
Joining me right now is Bill Daily, former FBI investigator
(25:34):
and expert in forensic photography security expert Bill Daily.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
Have you ever heard anything like this, well, Nanjie.
Speaker 13 (25:42):
And unfortunately, yes, I mean it is something that over
the years, let's say specifically with somebody manipulating someone, but
people going in and putting cameras in to be observing
individuals and doing that in a way that doesn't suggest
it was a crime preceding it, meaning that in this case,
he didn't go in and rob the apartment, which would have,
(26:03):
as as mentioned in the story just a few months ago,
would have precipitated more police involvement, but but yet relied
on him then as kind of this kind of savior
to come in and allegedly, you know, help this individual.
So I have heard of cases and it worked on
cases in the past where where they have been surreptitious
placement of cameras for various purposes, and so it's not
(26:27):
surprising that in this particular case, and I'm going to
kind of draw a little bit on from my my
friends and the behavioral science part of the FBI, But
this does demonstrate and could demonstrate leakage and leakage in
this in this phase is really talking about kind of
this progression, this kind of behavioral kind of uh kind
of progression towards potentially those crimes that took place involving
(26:51):
these students. So I think what we're all talking about
here is that it's not just creepy, it's not just unsettling,
but it does go to a kind of a state
of mind and a manner in which she would behave
by perhaps watching someone at a distance. And maybe that
also ties into some of the reports Nancy, that we
heard of him canvassing the home of the victims and
(27:13):
doing some observation remotely and having actually been there to
know what the layout of the flow plan was.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
You just mentioned, not just creepy, not just un settling.
I agree.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
In fact, I find it primitive because if you really
analyze what he's accused of doing, Bill Day, you see
a fingerprint, you see a similar modus operandi method of operation,
watching your victim at a distance, driving close enough to
(27:46):
her home, her apartment, to be part of her WiFi,
logging in possibly from remote, to watch her whenever he
felt like it, praying on some one he knew, much
as he thought he knew the victims at Idaho University
(28:06):
of Idaho from contacting them digitally, spying on them, showing
up at a restaurant where they were being around them.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
The victims.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Also young females, likely similar in appearance and age, in
the same area, in a similar housing situation, connected to
him tangentially that he talks. In my mind, it's an
outright similar transaction, thought jump Chris, Right, This.
Speaker 6 (28:47):
Is all in behavior very consistent with obviously dispossession, right,
And it's kind of a build up for them. I mean,
there's I've talked to suspects that first incident. It's almost
as if, you know, the most exciting part was not
necessarily the kill, but it was building up to that kill.
(29:09):
And one of the things that we talked about on
your show a while ago was the fact that the
first thing the defense did when they went into that house,
remember what they took, the first thing that smart TV. Okay,
and that's on their affidavit, and the cops stood there
and said, okay, all they did. You know, they took receipts,
(29:32):
they took a couple other things, but they took that
TV out of there. That makes one wonder what do
they know and what's on that TV? I know they
did a hard drive dump on it through the through
the the what's it called the Firefox or whatever, the
Amazon stick or something to that effect. So they did
(29:54):
a hard dive or a dump on it, but they
got that TV. And so you and I have talked
about this. You just wonder what in the world, you know,
was he really doing from his own apartment that his
team comes in and says, let's get this quickly.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I want to give a uh, let me just say,
I want to refresh your recollection as it relates.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
To what this is all about.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
This is about Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, Xana kernodle In
Gellico'savice Kelly, Zana, Madison and Ethan lost their lives brutally
(31:00):
Prime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 5 (31:05):
With me.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Doctor Janet Gorniac, renowned medical examiner joining us out of
Clark County Office of the Medical Examiner.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
That's Las Vegas.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Doctor Gorniac, could you remind us of the brutality inflicted
on these four young, possibly sleeping university students.
Speaker 9 (31:31):
You know, you keep going back to the oj trial, right,
And when I first heard about this, I too, along
with other other people, who was surprised that one person
was able to accomplish, you know, these injuries on all
these people, whether they were sleeping or not. I'm just
imagining how stealth he was getting into the house and
(31:56):
just brutally, you know in size who established our force
injuries on these on these young victims. And I just
can't I just can't imagine obviously knowing that the brutality
that he was able to inflict on each of these
young people without any fight back, that makes any sense.
(32:19):
And I, like I said, I was shocked that one
person was able to do this.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
The degree brutality was immeasurable. What were the injuries these
four victims sustained, Doctor Gorniac.
Speaker 9 (32:32):
They had multiple start force injuries. So when you talk
about the stab wounds and size wounds, so obviously in
cases like this, it's just a lot of blood loss. So,
like I said, it's it's unimaginable that they could have
all these wounds about their body without being able to
(32:55):
wake up or fight back. It must have been so fast,
you know. I mean, I'm just trying to figure out
how fast and rapid it could have been to be
able to to injure these young people like that. And
it's interesting because I hear you talking about the preminary
hearing versus a grand jury, and actually from where I
(33:17):
sit because as an independent witness, even though most of
the times we are called by the prosecuting the prosecutor,
but I myself prefer the pliminary hearing as an expert
because then you know where the defense is coming from.
And it's interesting to see how we're different players in
(33:39):
the whole legal system sit and how we approach it differently.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Oh Mett, Doctor Gorniac, I understand what you're saying as
a witness at trial, yep, that you want to know
what's going to happen, and you can at trial, and
you can find that out at a preliminary trial on
your own cross examination. But most witnesses, doctor Garniac, I know,
(34:05):
and I'm not even being a tiny bit sarcastic, doctor Garniac.
Most of us are just mere mortals that probably would
not hold up to cross examination as well as you, right,
and as the prosecutor, I don't want to put a
let's just say, a fearful witness or an easily intimidated witness,
an easily confused witness up on the stand, so the
(34:27):
defense can have not one but two cracks Adam at
preliminary and the trial.
Speaker 5 (34:33):
I mean you would like make you.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Know, child's play of a defense lawyer on cross exam.
I'd like to see that cross exam myself. I get
a bag of popcorn for that. But for most witnesses,
you don't want to subject them to two cross exams.
Speaker 9 (34:48):
And that's what I would say. I mean, so for me,
as like you said, as the witness, absolutely, but I
can only imagine, as someone who's intimately involved in the case,
how mentally challenging and you know, I mean devastating that
that could have lasing effects.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I mean, having testified doctor Garneac at my fiance's murder trial,
I know I wouldn't want to do it twice. I
absolutely would not want to do it twice.
Speaker 9 (35:14):
I agree, And so I see both sides. I see
both sides, and I just want.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
To you know what's interesting, But jumping off what doctor
Garneac just said, Chris McDonough, I'm just thinking about what
the witnesses are going to have to go through at
the actual trial. But I'm thinking about this female witness,
the colleague that was tricked into having Brian Coburger of
all people in small a security system in her home,
the video cameras. You know what christmacdonna think about it.
(35:39):
It was building in him even at that time. This
is just like a tiny taste of what he was
capable of. She should thank her lucky stars, thank Heaven
that she was not murdered, this female colleague of his.
Speaker 6 (35:54):
Yeah. Absolutely, And so when we think through that, he
is fantasizing in relationship to you know, the big event.
You know, as doctor Gary Bricado says, you know, he's
he's eventually going to get to the place where he's
the punisher. And you know, imagine sitting having her sit
(36:18):
in that prelim and in front of him, not knowing
what he's thinking about her while she's on that stand.
Remember in the oj trial, Barry Sheck had doctor you know,
the criminalist Fong on the stand and every time, you know,
he didn't say he put two sets of pairs of
(36:40):
gloves on Barry Sheck would say what about that mister Fong,
And that resonated through the law enforcement community back in
that time because I was there where we all started
talking about not getting fonged.
Speaker 5 (36:57):
Oh my goodness, I've never heard that before.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
I remember what about that mister Fong, but I've never
heard about not getting fun I'm hearing right now. Everyone
is headed to the courtroom for the formal arrayment.
Speaker 5 (37:10):
We'll bring it to you as we hear it. Goodbye, friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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