January 19, 2021 • 33 mins
Holly and Maria were curious if poisoners and their crimes would look different with a little distance on the timeline, and even whether any of the perpetrators would emerge as sympathetic characters. And in season 1 they found out, YES. On both counts.
Executive Producers: Maria Trimarchi and Holly Frey
Producer & Editor: Casby Bias
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shonda Land Audio in
partnership with I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the
final episode of the first season of Criminalia, where we've
been exploring lives and motivations of some of the most
notorious lady poisoners in history. I'm Maria Tremarqui and I'm
(00:23):
Holly Frying. So when we started Criminalia, we were curious
if crimes would look different with a little distance on
the timeline, and whether any of these perpetrators would emerge
as sympathetic characters. And we found out yes on both counts.
So this first season was all about poison and poisoners,
specifically women poisoners, and we looked at a few dozen
(00:46):
of them and their motivations to see what patterns might develop,
and there were definitely patterns. Mainly we saw three first.
The star of the season, yes, Arsenic, the big character
of them all. Truly, we could have called this the
Arsenic Files and it would have been accurate. So that
(01:07):
is a surprise to no one who's been listening that
that was a big theme throughout the season. It is
probably the most common link among all of these women,
and it seems like just one woman, Bell Gunnis, chose
Strycht nine instead of arsenic, but she was, like way
way an outlier in that regard, and both of us
will now always recognize the symptoms vomiting, an abdominal cramping, fever,
(01:34):
bloody diarrhea, a burning sensation throughout the body. You know
them too, as I'm saying them, You're like and will
think every malady someone around us has is in fact
arsenic poisoning. Of course, of course, now I'm gonna be like,
I have a fever, somebody poisoned me. It's gonna be
like living in ancient realm uh so actually speaking of
(01:56):
from the second pattern that we saw was the quest
for money and power, so financial and political gain. They
were definitely motivation for many women this season. Um. If
you remember early on we we talked about Julia Agrippina,
and she was I think in our second episode we
(02:17):
highlighted her anyway, she was referred to as and I
these are all quoted descriptions of her ambitious, ruthless, violent,
domineering um. And as it turns out, she lived up
to every single thing that she was described as, and
she may have in fact poisoned half of Rome, you know,
like she was busy. She was busy as long as
(02:39):
you were in power, she was definitely your rival. Yes.
And the third theme that came up a lot is
really mental illness. And this one's tricky, right. We don't
want to stigmatize mental illness because obviously there are plenty
of people who would be diagnosed as having some sort
of mental illness that are not in any way violent
(03:00):
or dangerous, of course, but there definitely are instances where
someone could have used the benefit of modern medicine or treatment.
And not all of these poisonings were because it was
just part of life or time and place that it
just happened. And so it is a little bit more
difficult to talk about women like Lydia Sherman and Vilma Barfield,
(03:23):
those shows where it was really really hard to ignore
the fact that there were mental health issues in the mix,
and for some of those those were really hard to
get through. They weren't doing this for money or for power,
or really for any reason that we could readily discern.
And these women lived in time periods where there wasn't
help available if you had a mental illness, and it
(03:44):
often wasn't even recognized as having been that or there
was a stigma as well, so you might not want
to seek out any sort of help, right, And so
in those there is a certain level of desperation that
you kind of can't help but feel. As we talked
through some of their victims and what had played out,
those are some hard stories, but there's actually there's a
good butt that comes down the the the first season
(04:08):
as well. Um, there were a few women who really
didn't do it, and I was actually surprised. I wasn't
sure that we were going to come out of this
season with anyone who really didn't do it. Uh. Sarah Chesham,
for instance, she went on trial for like three different
times before I forget exactly, and I mean it may
as well just have been like the court of public
(04:30):
opinion rather than real justice. And when we learned that
she her descendants right now are trying to clear her
name because of that, I swear it was like I
cheered at my computer. I was like, somebody's looking out
for this woman who the town just didn't really like
and you know, lined her up for a death sentence
(04:51):
knowing that she really didn't do what they were saying. Um,
she was my my, my first example of that, I
think who came up And then the biggest surprise for
me was Lucretia Borgia. Okay, so the Borges are infamous
for poisoning, but um, I love knowing that one she
(05:12):
was not a poisoner at all. Despite her family's reputation,
there's no evidence that she ever poisoned anyone do there's
no evidence she slept with any member of her family.
And three, um, she seems to just generally have been
a smart and decent woman who happened to just be
born into a really politically driven, corrupt, and frankly poisonous family,
(05:33):
you know, but she wasn't. You know. History has not
been kind to her, so it is interesting to really
look at at the record a little more closely and
find that that's not the case. I was really disappointed
that she didn't have that poison ring, but at least
we know that her brother it existed. Poison rings are
(05:53):
a real thing, just not for her, just not for her.
But with all of this said, and having looked at
all of these, we eat definitely had some favorites in
the mix of sometimes very toxic women, so favorite stories
that is, And we also had some favorite drinks. So today,
what we're gonna do is our finale to the season
(06:14):
is each talk about our favorite three stories and our
favorite three cocktails. Yes, I kind of figured that we
might be a little loose on this, and I don't
know if we Holly and I have not discussed what
our favorite three and three are, so I don't know
if we're gonna old it's gonna be a one big
circle ven diagrams. It's true. It's true. So for me,
(06:37):
I actually thought the whole season that I knew who
my favorites were. But when I sat down to think
about the not just the women, but the favorite shows
that we did, UM, I liked small facts about some
of these women, you know, like rap poison in the eggnog,
but I didn't really you know, it wasn't my favorite show. Um.
(06:57):
A lot of the Deadly Gossip was pretty good. Uh.
I landed on for one of my first favorite women,
Bell Gunness. Now actually didn't like Bell at all. Um.
I always thought that in my top three I would
have like maybe a Lucretia Borgia or Julia Tafauna, And
as you can see now they're not on my list. Um.
(07:19):
Here I am with Bell, right, And so it's a
little bit of a weird pick, but she really had
me at her correspondence, Like I thought that Bell was
so perfectly manipulative and her writing of triflers need not
apply one my poison her heart. But ultimately, not only
(07:41):
did she plays great personal ads across the Midwest, you know,
please come I and her love letters, and um, I
think I liked her the best because she just vanished.
Oh yeah, that's a good one. I understand completely why
you ended up landing on her. Initially it took me
by surprise, but because you are a writer by trade,
(08:03):
I can see where that was the thing that you
were like, yes, girls, okay, I'm like, look at her letters,
her love letters. I was like, man, I could get
some inspiration here, right. My first pick was actually Sarah
Bassett or Sally Bassett, though she was that she's a
great pick. She's not on my list, but she was
on my longer list. I love her story for a
(08:25):
couple of different reasons. One, I think that's so clearly
an instance of someone who is in a completely disadvantaged
situation finding power and agency however they could. I absolutely
love that. I love that right up to the end.
She was I don't even know how to describe it.
(08:47):
I almost called her a sass pants, but that's not
it's not not reverend enough for the gravity of who
she was. It's not quite right. But I know what
path you're going down, right when she's like the show starting,
can I'm here? I come, as she literally walked to
what she knew was her execution. Um. And I love
that she, at least we suspect, encouraged her granddaughter to
(09:11):
turn her in as a way to save her descendants
and be like, this system is messed up, and I
don't want you to get punished any more than you
need to be for this. It's disheartening, of course, that
there are still people having racist arguments about whether or
not there should be a monument to her. I was
not surprised. I have to say that I was disappointed
(09:34):
exactly exactly. No part of me is like, really, I'm shocked,
but but I was like, damn it, can't people get
past this? So but I do love that she now
is a full hero as well. I love that too.
I am I'm going to jump ahead and say that
the white Toad, which you made for her episode landed
(09:56):
on my top three drinks list mine too. But we'll
come back to ye, Welcome back to Criminalian. Who was
(10:17):
your next favorite story? Um so my next year story
was Locusta. Um. I liked her because she came up
in a few different episodes, like like she lurked in
the shadows of a few different episodes before we actually
ever talked about her, and um, you know, it didn't
(10:40):
really matter to me that there wasn't that much information
about her growing up or where she came from. I
was really intrigued that somebody could work with Nero for
fourteen years and come out of it alive. Well ultimately, yeah,
once he was dead, so was she. But you know, um,
(11:02):
but he wasn't the one who killed her, right you know.
So it was kind of um amazing, you know. And
she was at a time when I mean she was
in Rome and Romans loved their poisons, and you could
see that she was in Nero's eyes sort of this
this poisonous assassins celebrity that he just wanted to Uh,
I forget what he called her, like he had an
official title that he gave her, and um, but mainly
(11:27):
I really like I was saying I really dug the
fact that her name never appeared in other episodes, but
she was there. She was in Julia Agrippina and she
was also in an episode um where it was I
believe it was where she was Exactly. She would she
would like ride through the streets with her lover, and
(11:47):
you know, like it was kind of like like the
the like I always called the prom moment where they're
like in their limo and their arms at the top
of the sun room and their dad didn't approve. But
her lover when to prison because her parents didn't approve
of him, and his cellmate was an Italian chemist who
was schooled in the art of poison and allegedly learned
(12:09):
his poisons from Locusta. So like she kept coming up
and I just found that to be really interesting, and
the fact that she she only poisoned her money as well.
She didn't really seem to care about much else. She
had no vendetta's. She just was trying to make a living. Exactly.
She didn't even care what you want, you know, like
how who whatever? You know she's I can get to
(12:31):
that by Friday, you know, like like in the dude,
you know, like get you to let me see when
I have a moment to work on that poison. Right,
My second choice, I think might overlap with yours because
it's love, wasn't. She is my third voice, my third
So let's talk about her. There are a million reasons
(12:53):
to love her, right, I mean, first, there were a
million Catherines to go through, like, but she's my favorite Catherine.
And you're right, I mean for me obviously, like those
red velvet robes with the golden eagles on, she was
right there. She hit all the check marks for me, right,
It's like the clothes, the theatricality, the beautiful garden, palm readings,
(13:15):
all of that. I want a garden like that. But
for me, one of the reasons that I love her
is very similar to what you were just talking about
with lok Housto. I had told you prior to this, Like,
while I was doing an episode of research for my
other show, Stuff You Missed In history class, I was
studying a piece of Parisian history from the sixteen sixties,
(13:38):
and lo and behold what comes up? But love wasn't
And it was completely, almost completely unrelated to that story,
but it came up as one of those scene setters
of like, no, you have to understand Love wasn't. It
was the name that people were whispering in Paris everywhere,
and it was almost like a a boogeyman story, a
(13:58):
boogey woman's story. I suppose in this instance of you know,
of course there are poisons. You know, lovois't is plying
her trade, and she's taught other people, and anybody could
be poisoning anyone. And so when you think about that
level of influence in a city that was at that
point in time really making a play. France in the
(14:22):
reign of Louis the fourteen there was a very calculated
effort for it to become a global leader, and so
in a place that was kind of really bolstering its
own science, industry and textiles, many of the things that
we still think of France as being a leader in today,
right style absolutely was part of it, The arts was
(14:43):
absolutely part of it. And yet here is this one woman.
She is not part of any of that. She has
her own thing, and her reputation is still so huge
that it eclipses all of those other social issues going on,
and she just becomes this dark, fearful figure in the
shadows of Parisian society, right. And one of the things
(15:05):
that I like to juxtapose with that is the fact
that like when she would have her I'm going to
go quote unquote black masses. You know, we learned that
basically she was just putting a mattress on a set
of chairs, turn out the lights, and like telling her
guests that they're drinking you know, the blood of infants,
you know, but that they weren't, you know, just a
bunch of pigeons. You know. She was so into the
(15:28):
theatrics of it, which I think what sucked everybody into her.
I mean, it's not like she was the only fortune
teller in Paris, right, And I'm sure like her next
level abilities in that regard to create atmosphere and like
this sense of nearness to another world was part of
how she became that scary story you would tell people
(15:51):
to frighten them. It's kind of one of the all
I could think of now is publicity is good publicity.
I think she told it was one of those people,
you know, like I think she did what she did.
You know, She's like if I just turned down the lights,
it's all gonna be fine. Um. But she did have
(16:12):
skill in that area. She started fortune telling when she
was a kid, like cold reading, which um, you know
apparently is the more difficult way to kind of get
information out of people and use it against them. But um,
you know, she was like learning palmistry when she was nine, Like,
I think she was really in tune with how her
clients worked and what their motivations were. Oh right, Like
(16:34):
if she were living today and decided not to pursue
a career that she she would have been like an
A plus psychologist, absolutely, you know, if she went legit
like she opted not to pursue a life of crime, Well,
we we had I'm going to jump back to the
Custer for a second, because we had talked. I remember
(16:54):
in that episode that she could have been an apothecary
in a heartbeat, but she chose to be an assassin.
I jumped on your your third choice? Did you have
any runners up? I loved the story of Lucretia Borgia,
although she wouldn't have made it into my top three,
but um, I honestly really always thought that Julia Tafauna
would make it into my top three to be um
(17:16):
and uh, you know, and not because she's Sicilian and
not because we made a great drink about her and
not me. I I just thought, I mean, she was
one of the first women who popped up who wasn't
doing her poisoning for power. You know, she was doing
it because she was helping women who were in dangerous
abusive situations. And this is going to sound odd because
(17:38):
she was helping people in dangerous abusive situations, but it
was almost refreshing to have someone to talk about who
was using her skills not to kill off the emperor
and his cousin and his brother and his you know,
like that piece of her was just so new and different.
In one of the episodes that we were doing that
(17:58):
that she really stood out to me. Yeah, oh, Juliet.
My last one was Tilly. I loved the episode of Tilly.
I do too. I feel like she would have been
very difficult for me to connect with as a person,
but her story is very fascinating and rough on rats
(18:19):
I will never forget. I think we need shirts that
have the rough on rats. I just want a shirt
with like arsenic on it. It could be the chemical symbol.
I'm okay, right, our snack, just our snack. There is
that beautiful piece of art from the eighteen hundreds called
(18:41):
the Arsenic Waltz. That's like a man and woman. Um,
he's like asking her to dance, and she hasn't a
beautiful gown, but they're both skeletons. I have it printed
on a handbang. But yeah, tilly story is so just
bizarre and interesting. And because she's a little bit later
on the timeline, we have a little more information, so
we get to hear about how her strange trial played out.
(19:05):
But also because it's such I think, an important examination
of human perception and what we think of as good
and bad when you compare her to other women at
the time who were doing very similar things and walking
free because they were pretty, whereas she was not considered,
you know, attractive in the conventional way. She really had
(19:28):
the book thrown at her. She did well. We saw that.
We saw that a couple of times, I think, um,
but much earlier than Tilly. You know, in periods of
time when I wouldn't say that you would necessarily expect it,
but you didn't kind of expect it. There was one
when one woman I remember who was about to be tortured,
and I think her name was Marie, and I remember
her exclaiming like, there are hundreds of women in this
(19:49):
town that you could be, you know, torturing, and I'm
not going to name any of them, but I could.
You know, Tilly was not that kind of woman. She
got a hard sentence where other people would have been
it would have been lighter as a woman. Welcome back
(20:11):
from Analia. Do you want to move to the more
delightful part of the party? I would um, And I actually,
since I already mentioned White Toad, I will come up
with an actual fourth. I guess you don't have to
for me. You know, it's super fun to be creative
in the kitchen obviously, like I love playing with this stuff.
(20:32):
But White Toad was almost, like accidentally, way better than
I ever would have anticipated. Delicious. If anyone has not
tried it, try it, you know, Like Holly and I
have had conversations about this drink and it maybe are
I think both of our favorites from this season. I'm not.
I don't mean to speak for you, but I know
it's in your tops. It is in regular rotation at
my house at this point, and the most fun part
(20:53):
for me has been I have a couple of friends
who are like, yeah, we make white toads all the time,
and there even been a few people that have reached
out to me on Twitter that have really liked it,
and I just I love the idea of it. One day,
two hundred years from now, someone may find someone's scribbled
recipe for a white toad, and that will be the
(21:13):
thing I have left for future. It'll be like, I
wonder why it's named white toad, ginger cocktail called the
white Toad. I love it so much. Um So, we
were just talking about Tilly and um so, I actually
have a question about Tilly's drink. Okay, I know that
you bought special vodka for it, which I think was
(21:34):
Bison grass vodka. Yeah, Zubrowka, it's a Polish vodka. Yes,
so I read on the internet. It's always a good opener.
I read it. I always tell people to you know, like,
don't even I don't even want to hear about what
you read on the internet. Right, But like I read
that they put a blade of grass in each bottle.
(21:56):
Is that true? Yes, that's that's fantastic. I read something
true on the internet. I know, right, Yeah, they put
a blade of grass, and I think this is the case.
I haven't really chased down a lot of information about it,
but if you buy it in Europe, the ones that
are distributed, they are sometimes come in this cute shaggy
bottle cover that looks like grass has grown on it.
(22:18):
Mine did not. Mine just came in a very beautiful,
simple clear bottle with the blade of grass in the middle.
I guess we're gonna have to take a trip. Oh no,
you've twisted my own as soon as we can go. Yes,
but yes, it does have a blade of grass in it,
and I have used it in other cocktails sense and
I continue to really love it. I didn't put the
(22:40):
Polish Kiss on my list of favorites, but that is
one of my favorite spirits I have discovered throughout this one.
It is a little bit different flavor profile than most vodkas,
and it just adds a little nice botanical essence to
other drinks that you don't get with a regular vodka.
Refresh my memory. This was a vodka apple juice. Yes,
(23:03):
it's called a polish kiss, so it's zubrowka and apple juice,
and it is supposed to taste like apple pie. Mine didn't,
but it tasted delightful. But I also mentioned that I
used hippie unsweetened like right, organic apple juice, so I
may have taken away some of that yummy dessert flavoring,
right right, you took away the pie. Yes, I am
(23:28):
always um wished that you would called it um rough
on rats or or don't die in the house, Die
in the house. Well, it's a drink that actually existed.
I didn't invent that. That's true. True, that is true.
This was very early on um Tillie, I believe was
our first episode. Yeah, yeah, I don't think you were
(23:49):
experimenting as much then. Well, I was working on the
one the crazy Mushroom drink, so I was very frink
that drink is crazy. I still haven't tried it. Actually,
it is one of the few that I have not tried.
I say, I love mushrooms and I think it's gonna
be great, and it's just that I haven't picked up
(24:09):
the ingredients that I need to do it because I'm lazy.
There's there's no shame in that game. I will say
most of ours that we brewed, our mushroom garlic liqueur
that we made has largely gone into Bloody Mary's, which
is something I drink a lot of but my husband
likes them, so they go in his bloody Mary's. That's
actually great to know, because I do like a bloody
mary from time to time. It could probably go into
(24:31):
sauces and things too, absolutely, And it does do an
interesting thing to bloody mary's because since you're working with
roasted garlic, there's a little bit of butteriness to it
that you wouldn't normally get in a liquor, and so
it makes your bloody mary kind of taste like a
sauce in another food item. It tastes very foodie at
that point. Okay, now you've convinced mass is the next one.
(24:56):
The next drink that I liked was the Botanists Latte.
That's on my list too. I had Locusta as a
favorite show and a favorite drink. You know, it's like
all around. I'm sort of surprised by that, I guess,
but in general, she just became my favorite um And
I didn't pick it because she was one of my
favorite women. I begged him because I just really like it.
(25:18):
Like there's culinary rosebuds in it, you know, I mean,
I had to pick this drink. It's fantastic. It's the
latte I always wanted, right, same, I mean, I love
anything that tastes like flowers. We're from the wrong time period. No,
I'm good. Now we have all the options. Are you
well stocked? Oh yeah, I mean, here's what happened. When
(25:41):
I was ordering culinary rosebuds. The first place I ordered from,
the order got lost, and so I ordered from another
place and had them rush ship. I got that second order,
and then the next day the first order came, so like,
of course, that's how I just ordered both in bulk amount.
So I have a lot of culinary rosebuds to with.
(26:01):
So I'm drinking Botanist latte is on the regular at
the moment. That's that's certainly fine. I also tried it
with oat milk, which is also delicious. Yes, I love
that one. And like I have said before, like I
really like a coniac or a brandy in a warm drink,
and so it just to me that is like a
great way to wind down the day, just like on
the nights, and I'm not just drinking coffee until all hours,
(26:23):
and I actually think, hey, it would be great to
actually take a moment where I'm not constantly taking in
the stimulant and have a quiet drink that is relaxing.
That's when the botanist latte gets made. Yeah, I've done
it with oat milk, and I have also replaced because
I don't usually have Earl Gray around, but I always
have Lady Gray, which is a citrusy version of earl Gray.
All good, all good changes nice. I was going to ask,
(26:46):
because you never know with them, but I guess citrus
and brandy goes fine together from some people. Yeah, I
mean it's it's really a light difference. The only difference
between Earl Gray and um, Lady gray is really I
think it has like some orange in it. I think
that's the only thing. Mm hmm. I know you and
give me all the citrus sound getting better listen. I
(27:12):
had to have a tie for the third position, Okay.
I kept trying to decide and I just couldn't. And
I'm hoping that you will, um, just let me have it. Yeah,
So these were two. A part of why I liked
them is I don't think I ever would have like
(27:32):
tried to make these on my own just to make
a drink. It was definitely one where I was trying
to come up with something new to go with the story.
And so the first one is the one that I
did for Las Bara, which is the Poison Society punch Yes,
which I actually thought was greatly named, Like I mean
they really just first before you even get to the drink,
(27:52):
Like it just invokes like all these women who are
at poison School, like dipping, like Magsinty, like don his
giant punch bowls for me, right, And it is so
simple to make, and it is so absolutely delicious um
for me, almost dangerously delicious because I can drink a
lot of it. But for anybody that doesn't recall that
(28:13):
was a combination of cranberry juice, champagne, and amoretto, and
you can scale it up to make a big punch
bowl size serving of it. It's so simple. It doesn't
taste heavy, so like if you are in a social situation,
it just doesn't make you feel like you're really really
drinking heavily and weighed down. And oh, I just love it,
(28:33):
I think. And the one that it tied with for
me is again another I probably never would have made
on my own, which is the one that we made
for Lucrezia Borgia, This rice wed Yes because it's full
of nutritious fruit. But this was the This was the smoothie, right,
I say that in you know, like I quote around that,
(28:54):
you know, the the alcohol the smoothie. Yeah. So that's
the one with watermelon, plum and apricots all blended together,
purred together with prosecco and Elma Coolie tiky bitters added.
And that's another one where similar to Poison Society punch,
it is a very bright, light flavor even though there's
a lot of fruit in it. I'm reluctant to call
(29:16):
a cocktail nutritious feeling, but it is. It is, as
I said on the show, full of antioxidants. I'm sure
some are more nutritious than others. Yes, but yeah, those
are like both drinks that I literally like earmarked and
I'm like next party, right, because you could also make
the thrice wed in pretty large quantities and serve it
(29:36):
as a punch or just make multiple glasses of it
at a time to bring out on trays. And it
is so beautiful and yummy, and it it feels like
you're you know, getting your fruit serving in for the
But also it's a way for me to find a
drink that includes prosecco that I like because I don't
always love prosecco, But in this Lulea Doria I did
(30:04):
not include it, but I did sort of have a
tie as well. My tie was the pimpanella. Um, I
think was maybe your least favorite drink of the season.
I mean I mean it had it had granppa and
n a syrup and you know, lime juice. I think
there was one other thing in there, and for me,
(30:24):
I felt like it was all the right flavors. I
spent a little time in Italy and it made me
want to be in my backyard drinking it with the
old man who used to give me greens on from
his walk, you know, like he lived upstairs for me.
He didn't speak any English. He would just yell my
name down, you know, Like I feel like that drink
would have been perfect for that atmosphere. So she didn't
(30:46):
really make my list, but this was Julia Tafaunas, and
but it did because I like the drink quite a bit.
It's yummy. What was that tied with for you? Um?
It was the fourth you know, I ended up slotting
in the Botanist slatte instead of the pimpanella. Because the
(31:06):
botanist latte to me and I didn't say this earlier,
but it's so easy to prepare and yet feels so
comforting when I put flowers and things that always just
feels fancy somehow. And it's just a latte, you know,
like just a warm milk drink, you know, heat up
some almond milk, and I'm pretty much done. You know,
(31:29):
that one landed in there because it's just I just
really really like it. So I will say it didn't
make my list, but I still am very, very proud
of the Estra Carlson because that was the one if
you remember, that had a flavor change as you're drinking it,
and I was just proud that I figured out how
to do it. I have to say, I have watched
(31:52):
you grow in the kitchen over the last couple of
months in your alcohol endeavors, and uh, some good drinks
can out, I know. I um, I can't. I can't
wait to see what we come up with for next
season because there will be more cocktails. We promise there
will always be a cocktail and more more Criminalia is coming.
(32:13):
Now is a great time if you want to catch
up on this first season, jump on it. You can
binge it because we are about to jump right into
a season on historical Stalkers. Once again. Thank you to
everyone who has been on this wacky, toxic, poisonous journey
with us so far. Uh, it's really really been an
absolute delight to work on this season with you. Maria,
(32:34):
thank you, thank you. Be where the arsenic colleague. Yes,
and we hope that since we are now in a
brand new year that is way better for most people
than and that we all have a lot more fun together.
So come on back because we'll be here. It will
be a fun season. Criminalia is a production of Shonda
(32:55):
land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more
podcasts from Shawonda land Audio, please visit the i Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. H
Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shonda Land Audio in
partnership with I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the
final episode of the first season of Criminalia, where we've
been exploring lives and motivations of some of the most
notorious lady poisoners in history. I'm Maria Tremarqui and I'm
(00:23):
Holly Frying. So when we started Criminalia, we were curious
if crimes would look different with a little distance on
the timeline, and whether any of these perpetrators would emerge
as sympathetic characters. And we found out yes on both counts.
So this first season was all about poison and poisoners,
specifically women poisoners, and we looked at a few dozen
(00:46):
of them and their motivations to see what patterns might develop,
and there were definitely patterns. Mainly we saw three first.
The star of the season, yes, Arsenic, the big character
of them all. Truly, we could have called this the
Arsenic Files and it would have been accurate. So that
(01:07):
is a surprise to no one who's been listening that
that was a big theme throughout the season. It is
probably the most common link among all of these women,
and it seems like just one woman, Bell Gunnis, chose
Strycht nine instead of arsenic, but she was, like way
way an outlier in that regard, and both of us
will now always recognize the symptoms vomiting, an abdominal cramping, fever,
(01:34):
bloody diarrhea, a burning sensation throughout the body. You know
them too, as I'm saying them, You're like and will
think every malady someone around us has is in fact
arsenic poisoning. Of course, of course, now I'm gonna be like,
I have a fever, somebody poisoned me. It's gonna be
like living in ancient realm uh so actually speaking of
(01:56):
from the second pattern that we saw was the quest
for money and power, so financial and political gain. They
were definitely motivation for many women this season. Um. If
you remember early on we we talked about Julia Agrippina,
and she was I think in our second episode we
(02:17):
highlighted her anyway, she was referred to as and I
these are all quoted descriptions of her ambitious, ruthless, violent,
domineering um. And as it turns out, she lived up
to every single thing that she was described as, and
she may have in fact poisoned half of Rome, you know,
like she was busy. She was busy as long as
(02:39):
you were in power, she was definitely your rival. Yes.
And the third theme that came up a lot is
really mental illness. And this one's tricky, right. We don't
want to stigmatize mental illness because obviously there are plenty
of people who would be diagnosed as having some sort
of mental illness that are not in any way violent
(03:00):
or dangerous, of course, but there definitely are instances where
someone could have used the benefit of modern medicine or treatment.
And not all of these poisonings were because it was
just part of life or time and place that it
just happened. And so it is a little bit more
difficult to talk about women like Lydia Sherman and Vilma Barfield,
(03:23):
those shows where it was really really hard to ignore
the fact that there were mental health issues in the mix,
and for some of those those were really hard to
get through. They weren't doing this for money or for power,
or really for any reason that we could readily discern.
And these women lived in time periods where there wasn't
help available if you had a mental illness, and it
(03:44):
often wasn't even recognized as having been that or there
was a stigma as well, so you might not want
to seek out any sort of help, right, And so
in those there is a certain level of desperation that
you kind of can't help but feel. As we talked
through some of their victims and what had played out,
those are some hard stories, but there's actually there's a
good butt that comes down the the the first season
(04:08):
as well. Um, there were a few women who really
didn't do it, and I was actually surprised. I wasn't
sure that we were going to come out of this
season with anyone who really didn't do it. Uh. Sarah Chesham,
for instance, she went on trial for like three different
times before I forget exactly, and I mean it may
as well just have been like the court of public
(04:30):
opinion rather than real justice. And when we learned that
she her descendants right now are trying to clear her
name because of that, I swear it was like I
cheered at my computer. I was like, somebody's looking out
for this woman who the town just didn't really like
and you know, lined her up for a death sentence
(04:51):
knowing that she really didn't do what they were saying. Um,
she was my my, my first example of that, I
think who came up And then the biggest surprise for
me was Lucretia Borgia. Okay, so the Borges are infamous
for poisoning, but um, I love knowing that one she
(05:12):
was not a poisoner at all. Despite her family's reputation,
there's no evidence that she ever poisoned anyone do there's
no evidence she slept with any member of her family.
And three, um, she seems to just generally have been
a smart and decent woman who happened to just be
born into a really politically driven, corrupt, and frankly poisonous family,
(05:33):
you know, but she wasn't. You know. History has not
been kind to her, so it is interesting to really
look at at the record a little more closely and
find that that's not the case. I was really disappointed
that she didn't have that poison ring, but at least
we know that her brother it existed. Poison rings are
(05:53):
a real thing, just not for her, just not for her.
But with all of this said, and having looked at
all of these, we eat definitely had some favorites in
the mix of sometimes very toxic women, so favorite stories
that is, And we also had some favorite drinks. So today,
what we're gonna do is our finale to the season
(06:14):
is each talk about our favorite three stories and our
favorite three cocktails. Yes, I kind of figured that we
might be a little loose on this, and I don't
know if we Holly and I have not discussed what
our favorite three and three are, so I don't know
if we're gonna old it's gonna be a one big
circle ven diagrams. It's true. It's true. So for me,
(06:37):
I actually thought the whole season that I knew who
my favorites were. But when I sat down to think
about the not just the women, but the favorite shows
that we did, UM, I liked small facts about some
of these women, you know, like rap poison in the eggnog,
but I didn't really you know, it wasn't my favorite show. Um.
(06:57):
A lot of the Deadly Gossip was pretty good. Uh.
I landed on for one of my first favorite women,
Bell Gunness. Now actually didn't like Bell at all. Um.
I always thought that in my top three I would
have like maybe a Lucretia Borgia or Julia Tafauna, And
as you can see now they're not on my list. Um.
(07:19):
Here I am with Bell, right, And so it's a
little bit of a weird pick, but she really had
me at her correspondence, Like I thought that Bell was
so perfectly manipulative and her writing of triflers need not
apply one my poison her heart. But ultimately, not only
(07:41):
did she plays great personal ads across the Midwest, you know,
please come I and her love letters, and um, I
think I liked her the best because she just vanished.
Oh yeah, that's a good one. I understand completely why
you ended up landing on her. Initially it took me
by surprise, but because you are a writer by trade,
(08:03):
I can see where that was the thing that you
were like, yes, girls, okay, I'm like, look at her letters,
her love letters. I was like, man, I could get
some inspiration here, right. My first pick was actually Sarah
Bassett or Sally Bassett, though she was that she's a
great pick. She's not on my list, but she was
on my longer list. I love her story for a
(08:25):
couple of different reasons. One, I think that's so clearly
an instance of someone who is in a completely disadvantaged
situation finding power and agency however they could. I absolutely
love that. I love that right up to the end.
She was I don't even know how to describe it.
(08:47):
I almost called her a sass pants, but that's not
it's not not reverend enough for the gravity of who
she was. It's not quite right. But I know what
path you're going down, right when she's like the show starting,
can I'm here? I come, as she literally walked to
what she knew was her execution. Um. And I love
that she, at least we suspect, encouraged her granddaughter to
(09:11):
turn her in as a way to save her descendants
and be like, this system is messed up, and I
don't want you to get punished any more than you
need to be for this. It's disheartening, of course, that
there are still people having racist arguments about whether or
not there should be a monument to her. I was
not surprised. I have to say that I was disappointed
(09:34):
exactly exactly. No part of me is like, really, I'm shocked,
but but I was like, damn it, can't people get
past this? So but I do love that she now
is a full hero as well. I love that too.
I am I'm going to jump ahead and say that
the white Toad, which you made for her episode landed
(09:56):
on my top three drinks list mine too. But we'll
come back to ye, Welcome back to Criminalian. Who was
(10:17):
your next favorite story? Um so my next year story
was Locusta. Um. I liked her because she came up
in a few different episodes, like like she lurked in
the shadows of a few different episodes before we actually
ever talked about her, and um, you know, it didn't
(10:40):
really matter to me that there wasn't that much information
about her growing up or where she came from. I
was really intrigued that somebody could work with Nero for
fourteen years and come out of it alive. Well ultimately, yeah,
once he was dead, so was she. But you know, um,
(11:02):
but he wasn't the one who killed her, right you know.
So it was kind of um amazing, you know. And
she was at a time when I mean she was
in Rome and Romans loved their poisons, and you could
see that she was in Nero's eyes sort of this
this poisonous assassins celebrity that he just wanted to Uh,
I forget what he called her, like he had an
official title that he gave her, and um, but mainly
(11:27):
I really like I was saying I really dug the
fact that her name never appeared in other episodes, but
she was there. She was in Julia Agrippina and she
was also in an episode um where it was I
believe it was where she was Exactly. She would she
would like ride through the streets with her lover, and
(11:47):
you know, like it was kind of like like the
the like I always called the prom moment where they're
like in their limo and their arms at the top
of the sun room and their dad didn't approve. But
her lover when to prison because her parents didn't approve
of him, and his cellmate was an Italian chemist who
was schooled in the art of poison and allegedly learned
(12:09):
his poisons from Locusta. So like she kept coming up
and I just found that to be really interesting, and
the fact that she she only poisoned her money as well.
She didn't really seem to care about much else. She
had no vendetta's. She just was trying to make a living. Exactly.
She didn't even care what you want, you know, like
how who whatever? You know she's I can get to
(12:31):
that by Friday, you know, like like in the dude,
you know, like get you to let me see when
I have a moment to work on that poison. Right,
My second choice, I think might overlap with yours because
it's love, wasn't. She is my third voice, my third
So let's talk about her. There are a million reasons
(12:53):
to love her, right, I mean, first, there were a
million Catherines to go through, like, but she's my favorite Catherine.
And you're right, I mean for me obviously, like those
red velvet robes with the golden eagles on, she was
right there. She hit all the check marks for me, right,
It's like the clothes, the theatricality, the beautiful garden, palm readings,
(13:15):
all of that. I want a garden like that. But
for me, one of the reasons that I love her
is very similar to what you were just talking about
with lok Housto. I had told you prior to this, Like,
while I was doing an episode of research for my
other show, Stuff You Missed In history class, I was
studying a piece of Parisian history from the sixteen sixties,
(13:38):
and lo and behold what comes up? But love wasn't
And it was completely, almost completely unrelated to that story,
but it came up as one of those scene setters
of like, no, you have to understand Love wasn't. It
was the name that people were whispering in Paris everywhere,
and it was almost like a a boogeyman story, a
(13:58):
boogey woman's story. I suppose in this instance of you know,
of course there are poisons. You know, lovois't is plying
her trade, and she's taught other people, and anybody could
be poisoning anyone. And so when you think about that
level of influence in a city that was at that
point in time really making a play. France in the
(14:22):
reign of Louis the fourteen there was a very calculated
effort for it to become a global leader, and so
in a place that was kind of really bolstering its
own science, industry and textiles, many of the things that
we still think of France as being a leader in today,
right style absolutely was part of it, The arts was
(14:43):
absolutely part of it. And yet here is this one woman.
She is not part of any of that. She has
her own thing, and her reputation is still so huge
that it eclipses all of those other social issues going on,
and she just becomes this dark, fearful figure in the
shadows of Parisian society, right. And one of the things
(15:05):
that I like to juxtapose with that is the fact
that like when she would have her I'm going to
go quote unquote black masses. You know, we learned that
basically she was just putting a mattress on a set
of chairs, turn out the lights, and like telling her
guests that they're drinking you know, the blood of infants,
you know, but that they weren't, you know, just a
bunch of pigeons. You know. She was so into the
(15:28):
theatrics of it, which I think what sucked everybody into her.
I mean, it's not like she was the only fortune
teller in Paris, right, And I'm sure like her next
level abilities in that regard to create atmosphere and like
this sense of nearness to another world was part of
how she became that scary story you would tell people
(15:51):
to frighten them. It's kind of one of the all
I could think of now is publicity is good publicity.
I think she told it was one of those people,
you know, like I think she did what she did.
You know, She's like if I just turned down the lights,
it's all gonna be fine. Um. But she did have
(16:12):
skill in that area. She started fortune telling when she
was a kid, like cold reading, which um, you know
apparently is the more difficult way to kind of get
information out of people and use it against them. But um,
you know, she was like learning palmistry when she was nine, Like,
I think she was really in tune with how her
clients worked and what their motivations were. Oh right, Like
(16:34):
if she were living today and decided not to pursue
a career that she she would have been like an
A plus psychologist, absolutely, you know, if she went legit
like she opted not to pursue a life of crime, Well,
we we had I'm going to jump back to the
Custer for a second, because we had talked. I remember
(16:54):
in that episode that she could have been an apothecary
in a heartbeat, but she chose to be an assassin.
I jumped on your your third choice? Did you have
any runners up? I loved the story of Lucretia Borgia,
although she wouldn't have made it into my top three,
but um, I honestly really always thought that Julia Tafauna
would make it into my top three to be um
(17:16):
and uh, you know, and not because she's Sicilian and
not because we made a great drink about her and
not me. I I just thought, I mean, she was
one of the first women who popped up who wasn't
doing her poisoning for power. You know, she was doing
it because she was helping women who were in dangerous
abusive situations. And this is going to sound odd because
(17:38):
she was helping people in dangerous abusive situations, but it
was almost refreshing to have someone to talk about who
was using her skills not to kill off the emperor
and his cousin and his brother and his you know,
like that piece of her was just so new and different.
In one of the episodes that we were doing that
(17:58):
that she really stood out to me. Yeah, oh, Juliet.
My last one was Tilly. I loved the episode of Tilly.
I do too. I feel like she would have been
very difficult for me to connect with as a person,
but her story is very fascinating and rough on rats
(18:19):
I will never forget. I think we need shirts that
have the rough on rats. I just want a shirt
with like arsenic on it. It could be the chemical symbol.
I'm okay, right, our snack, just our snack. There is
that beautiful piece of art from the eighteen hundreds called
(18:41):
the Arsenic Waltz. That's like a man and woman. Um,
he's like asking her to dance, and she hasn't a
beautiful gown, but they're both skeletons. I have it printed
on a handbang. But yeah, tilly story is so just
bizarre and interesting. And because she's a little bit later
on the timeline, we have a little more information, so
we get to hear about how her strange trial played out.
(19:05):
But also because it's such I think, an important examination
of human perception and what we think of as good
and bad when you compare her to other women at
the time who were doing very similar things and walking
free because they were pretty, whereas she was not considered,
you know, attractive in the conventional way. She really had
(19:28):
the book thrown at her. She did well. We saw that.
We saw that a couple of times, I think, um,
but much earlier than Tilly. You know, in periods of
time when I wouldn't say that you would necessarily expect it,
but you didn't kind of expect it. There was one
when one woman I remember who was about to be tortured,
and I think her name was Marie, and I remember
her exclaiming like, there are hundreds of women in this
(19:49):
town that you could be, you know, torturing, and I'm
not going to name any of them, but I could.
You know, Tilly was not that kind of woman. She
got a hard sentence where other people would have been
it would have been lighter as a woman. Welcome back
(20:11):
from Analia. Do you want to move to the more
delightful part of the party? I would um, And I actually,
since I already mentioned White Toad, I will come up
with an actual fourth. I guess you don't have to
for me. You know, it's super fun to be creative
in the kitchen obviously, like I love playing with this stuff.
(20:32):
But White Toad was almost, like accidentally, way better than
I ever would have anticipated. Delicious. If anyone has not
tried it, try it, you know, Like Holly and I
have had conversations about this drink and it maybe are
I think both of our favorites from this season. I'm not.
I don't mean to speak for you, but I know
it's in your tops. It is in regular rotation at
my house at this point, and the most fun part
(20:53):
for me has been I have a couple of friends
who are like, yeah, we make white toads all the time,
and there even been a few people that have reached
out to me on Twitter that have really liked it,
and I just I love the idea of it. One day,
two hundred years from now, someone may find someone's scribbled
recipe for a white toad, and that will be the
(21:13):
thing I have left for future. It'll be like, I
wonder why it's named white toad, ginger cocktail called the
white Toad. I love it so much. Um So, we
were just talking about Tilly and um so, I actually
have a question about Tilly's drink. Okay, I know that
you bought special vodka for it, which I think was
(21:34):
Bison grass vodka. Yeah, Zubrowka, it's a Polish vodka. Yes,
so I read on the internet. It's always a good opener.
I read it. I always tell people to you know, like,
don't even I don't even want to hear about what
you read on the internet. Right, But like I read
that they put a blade of grass in each bottle.
(21:56):
Is that true? Yes, that's that's fantastic. I read something
true on the internet. I know, right, Yeah, they put
a blade of grass, and I think this is the case.
I haven't really chased down a lot of information about it,
but if you buy it in Europe, the ones that
are distributed, they are sometimes come in this cute shaggy
bottle cover that looks like grass has grown on it.
(22:18):
Mine did not. Mine just came in a very beautiful,
simple clear bottle with the blade of grass in the middle.
I guess we're gonna have to take a trip. Oh no,
you've twisted my own as soon as we can go. Yes,
but yes, it does have a blade of grass in it,
and I have used it in other cocktails sense and
I continue to really love it. I didn't put the
(22:40):
Polish Kiss on my list of favorites, but that is
one of my favorite spirits I have discovered throughout this one.
It is a little bit different flavor profile than most vodkas,
and it just adds a little nice botanical essence to
other drinks that you don't get with a regular vodka.
Refresh my memory. This was a vodka apple juice. Yes,
(23:03):
it's called a polish kiss, so it's zubrowka and apple juice,
and it is supposed to taste like apple pie. Mine didn't,
but it tasted delightful. But I also mentioned that I
used hippie unsweetened like right, organic apple juice, so I
may have taken away some of that yummy dessert flavoring,
right right, you took away the pie. Yes, I am
(23:28):
always um wished that you would called it um rough
on rats or or don't die in the house, Die
in the house. Well, it's a drink that actually existed.
I didn't invent that. That's true. True, that is true.
This was very early on um Tillie, I believe was
our first episode. Yeah, yeah, I don't think you were
(23:49):
experimenting as much then. Well, I was working on the
one the crazy Mushroom drink, so I was very frink
that drink is crazy. I still haven't tried it. Actually,
it is one of the few that I have not tried.
I say, I love mushrooms and I think it's gonna
be great, and it's just that I haven't picked up
(24:09):
the ingredients that I need to do it because I'm lazy.
There's there's no shame in that game. I will say
most of ours that we brewed, our mushroom garlic liqueur
that we made has largely gone into Bloody Mary's, which
is something I drink a lot of but my husband
likes them, so they go in his bloody Mary's. That's
actually great to know, because I do like a bloody
mary from time to time. It could probably go into
(24:31):
sauces and things too, absolutely, And it does do an
interesting thing to bloody mary's because since you're working with
roasted garlic, there's a little bit of butteriness to it
that you wouldn't normally get in a liquor, and so
it makes your bloody mary kind of taste like a
sauce in another food item. It tastes very foodie at
that point. Okay, now you've convinced mass is the next one.
(24:56):
The next drink that I liked was the Botanists Latte.
That's on my list too. I had Locusta as a
favorite show and a favorite drink. You know, it's like
all around. I'm sort of surprised by that, I guess,
but in general, she just became my favorite um And
I didn't pick it because she was one of my
favorite women. I begged him because I just really like it.
(25:18):
Like there's culinary rosebuds in it, you know, I mean,
I had to pick this drink. It's fantastic. It's the
latte I always wanted, right, same, I mean, I love
anything that tastes like flowers. We're from the wrong time period. No,
I'm good. Now we have all the options. Are you
well stocked? Oh yeah, I mean, here's what happened. When
(25:41):
I was ordering culinary rosebuds. The first place I ordered from,
the order got lost, and so I ordered from another
place and had them rush ship. I got that second order,
and then the next day the first order came, so like,
of course, that's how I just ordered both in bulk amount.
So I have a lot of culinary rosebuds to with.
(26:01):
So I'm drinking Botanist latte is on the regular at
the moment. That's that's certainly fine. I also tried it
with oat milk, which is also delicious. Yes, I love
that one. And like I have said before, like I
really like a coniac or a brandy in a warm drink,
and so it just to me that is like a
great way to wind down the day, just like on
the nights, and I'm not just drinking coffee until all hours,
(26:23):
and I actually think, hey, it would be great to
actually take a moment where I'm not constantly taking in
the stimulant and have a quiet drink that is relaxing.
That's when the botanist latte gets made. Yeah, I've done
it with oat milk, and I have also replaced because
I don't usually have Earl Gray around, but I always
have Lady Gray, which is a citrusy version of earl Gray.
All good, all good changes nice. I was going to ask,
(26:46):
because you never know with them, but I guess citrus
and brandy goes fine together from some people. Yeah, I
mean it's it's really a light difference. The only difference
between Earl Gray and um, Lady gray is really I
think it has like some orange in it. I think
that's the only thing. Mm hmm. I know you and
give me all the citrus sound getting better listen. I
(27:12):
had to have a tie for the third position, Okay.
I kept trying to decide and I just couldn't. And
I'm hoping that you will, um, just let me have it. Yeah,
So these were two. A part of why I liked
them is I don't think I ever would have like
(27:32):
tried to make these on my own just to make
a drink. It was definitely one where I was trying
to come up with something new to go with the story.
And so the first one is the one that I
did for Las Bara, which is the Poison Society punch Yes,
which I actually thought was greatly named, Like I mean
they really just first before you even get to the drink,
(27:52):
Like it just invokes like all these women who are
at poison School, like dipping, like Magsinty, like don his
giant punch bowls for me, right, And it is so
simple to make, and it is so absolutely delicious um
for me, almost dangerously delicious because I can drink a
lot of it. But for anybody that doesn't recall that
(28:13):
was a combination of cranberry juice, champagne, and amoretto, and
you can scale it up to make a big punch
bowl size serving of it. It's so simple. It doesn't
taste heavy, so like if you are in a social situation,
it just doesn't make you feel like you're really really
drinking heavily and weighed down. And oh, I just love it,
(28:33):
I think. And the one that it tied with for
me is again another I probably never would have made
on my own, which is the one that we made
for Lucrezia Borgia, This rice wed Yes because it's full
of nutritious fruit. But this was the This was the smoothie, right,
I say that in you know, like I quote around that,
(28:54):
you know, the the alcohol the smoothie. Yeah. So that's
the one with watermelon, plum and apricots all blended together,
purred together with prosecco and Elma Coolie tiky bitters added.
And that's another one where similar to Poison Society punch,
it is a very bright, light flavor even though there's
a lot of fruit in it. I'm reluctant to call
(29:16):
a cocktail nutritious feeling, but it is. It is, as
I said on the show, full of antioxidants. I'm sure
some are more nutritious than others. Yes, but yeah, those
are like both drinks that I literally like earmarked and
I'm like next party, right, because you could also make
the thrice wed in pretty large quantities and serve it
(29:36):
as a punch or just make multiple glasses of it
at a time to bring out on trays. And it
is so beautiful and yummy, and it it feels like
you're you know, getting your fruit serving in for the
But also it's a way for me to find a
drink that includes prosecco that I like because I don't
always love prosecco, But in this Lulea Doria I did
(30:04):
not include it, but I did sort of have a
tie as well. My tie was the pimpanella. Um, I
think was maybe your least favorite drink of the season.
I mean I mean it had it had granppa and
n a syrup and you know, lime juice. I think
there was one other thing in there, and for me,
(30:24):
I felt like it was all the right flavors. I
spent a little time in Italy and it made me
want to be in my backyard drinking it with the
old man who used to give me greens on from
his walk, you know, like he lived upstairs for me.
He didn't speak any English. He would just yell my
name down, you know, Like I feel like that drink
would have been perfect for that atmosphere. So she didn't
(30:46):
really make my list, but this was Julia Tafaunas, and
but it did because I like the drink quite a bit.
It's yummy. What was that tied with for you? Um?
It was the fourth you know, I ended up slotting
in the Botanist slatte instead of the pimpanella. Because the
(31:06):
botanist latte to me and I didn't say this earlier,
but it's so easy to prepare and yet feels so
comforting when I put flowers and things that always just
feels fancy somehow. And it's just a latte, you know,
like just a warm milk drink, you know, heat up
some almond milk, and I'm pretty much done. You know,
(31:29):
that one landed in there because it's just I just
really really like it. So I will say it didn't
make my list, but I still am very, very proud
of the Estra Carlson because that was the one if
you remember, that had a flavor change as you're drinking it,
and I was just proud that I figured out how
to do it. I have to say, I have watched
(31:52):
you grow in the kitchen over the last couple of
months in your alcohol endeavors, and uh, some good drinks
can out, I know. I um, I can't. I can't
wait to see what we come up with for next
season because there will be more cocktails. We promise there
will always be a cocktail and more more Criminalia is coming.
(32:13):
Now is a great time if you want to catch
up on this first season, jump on it. You can
binge it because we are about to jump right into
a season on historical Stalkers. Once again. Thank you to
everyone who has been on this wacky, toxic, poisonous journey
with us so far. Uh, it's really really been an
absolute delight to work on this season with you. Maria,
(32:34):
thank you, thank you. Be where the arsenic colleague. Yes,
and we hope that since we are now in a
brand new year that is way better for most people
than and that we all have a lot more fun together.
So come on back because we'll be here. It will
be a fun season. Criminalia is a production of Shonda
(32:55):
land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more
podcasts from Shawonda land Audio, please visit the i Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. H
Hosts And Creators
Holly Frey
Maria Trimarchi
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