Ep. 114: Unpacking the Trophy vs. Meat Hunting Controversy

Jason and Dirk sit down to discuss trophy hunting. The conversation starts with the two struggling even to define what it is. They then make a strong case for what people consider trophy hunting. They discuss the value that hunting brings to the animals, they talk about the selective management taking place because of self-imposed maturity, as well as the amount of meat you "put in the freezer" because of harvesting more mature animals. The two also made sure to talk about where they feel trophy hunting may be hurting the genetics and age structure of the herd as well.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today.
I'm here with my good buddy Dirk Durham and co host,
and we're gonna we're gonna jump into a topic that, uh,
you know, its sparks a lot of debate, you know,
within the hunting community, outside the hunting community, maybe even
more so trophy hunting versus meat hunting. And I don't
even understand what the difference is, but it's also being

(00:32):
thrown around now, you know, in potential legislation and bills.
I know it was specifically put in the Colorado bill
that just thankfully got you know, shot down by the voters,
you know, trophy hunting, and it's in my opinion, it's
used to romanticize and pull the heartstrings of the voters
and then some of what I would call like the
over the top, crazy, protect animal at all costs types

(00:52):
of people. So welcome to the show, Derek.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah, Yeah, how's it going?

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Good? Good hunting season for the most parts, all wrapped
up for us and getting back to some normal topics
that don't that that are a little bit different than
our normal you know, tips and tactics, technical stuff. So
kind of kind of excited to jump into this one.
I was reading the social post the other day and
it was from a newspaper, you know, so I'm sitting
there thinking, oh, I'm I'm I'm not overly dramatic, but

(01:19):
I like to see both sides, right, you know. From
when it's a newspaper, you're gonna get the hunters and
the anna hunters. So I mean, not being able to
help myself, I click on the comment section just because
I like a good you know, some mudslinging and like
to see that. I like to see the pigs wrestle
in the mud a little bit. And and I kind
of seen how some of the hunters responded, you know,
back and forth, and why the other side, you know,

(01:42):
the trophy hunting, the protect trophy hunting. Trophy hunting is
bad type people. They they're completely wrong. They do a
better job at talking at time versus you know, the
majority of hunters are just like, trophy hunting is good.
I'll shoot what I want and I'll shoot as much
as I want. Now my list isn't good messaging either,
So I'm like, uh, let's throw it on the podcast.

(02:02):
And I've always had a lot of thoughts and confusion
and h just what is trophy hunting? You know, I
think that's where you have to kind of start. If
we're going to throw a word out there, we should
all be able to understand, you know, what it means.
So in your opinion, what would you or how would
you define what is trophy hunting?

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Or once it's you, I think that's almost like a
loaded question. It's kind of like one of those it
means something to everyone differently. It's almost like to me,
it's almost like ethics, right, So if you ask one
person to say, okay, what's ethical behavior there, you get

(02:42):
get a room full of people and you ask each person.
Each person's going to give you a different, you know,
take on it. And I think trophy hunting is a
lot like that. If it's coming from an anti hunting perspective,
Trophy hunting is basically you're killing an animal for its
antlers or skull, hide, whatever whatever its attributes are. You're

(03:07):
killing it for that physical attribute and discarding anything else about,
you know, with the animal, which from a hunting perspective,
that's not necessarily accurate because a lot of people will
say trophy hunting is you know, they're they are looking
for the largest biggest measuring animal they can find for

(03:31):
their tag. But they're not they're not wasting meat, you know,
they're not just shooting an animal and leaving you know,
taking you know, taking the antlers or the hide or
the head and just leaving it to waste. That's not
that's that's actually poaching, you know, because you know that's
that's illegal. So so as hunters, you know, you know,

(03:55):
we're going to shoot a big elk, for instance, the
big like a trophy a trophy hunt or a trophy hunter.
You're try to shoot the biggest one you can get
because it's probably a limited opportunity, maybe almost a once
in a lifetime chance for you to kill a really mature,
big antlered elk. But you're going to take that meat

(04:15):
home too, or share it with friends, but the meat
will be harvested as well. Now you're going to put
that that set of antlers on your wall, whether you
put on a shoulder mount or a European mount. And
you know, the anti hunters feel that's disgusting. They don't
understand though, that we're at that point you're honoring that animal,

(04:38):
right you're putting it on the wall. I mean that
that animal's life will be remembered for as long as
those antlers are in existence. Right that that animal's life
is honored. It's the hunt was honored. You know, everything
about it is honored. Whereas they don't see it that way.
They don't have that understanding of it. I guess they

(04:59):
just look at as a like a prize or a trophy,
like like a trophy that you would win at a
you know, race or or something.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
So let me in this. I have to apologize. I
told Dirk before this podcast, but this one, this whole
topic is like a soup sandwich because I've tried to
like how am I going to organize this? How are
we not going to go left and right and keep
this thing in the middle. So I'm gonna apologize. But
so by that definition, so my son's got his first buck,
which is a fork and horn on his wall, is

(05:27):
he now a trophy hunter or is it just that
he's proud? You know? So it's like, how do you
you know, defining it by by antlers on the wall.
It's like similar to you, I, you know, we have
a lot of family gatherings at my house. We you know,
we built my house to do that. Sort of thing.
And I've got quite a few animals on the wall,
but those more than the trophy. Yeah, it's an higher call,

(05:47):
you know, higher caliber type animal. You know that that
we but there's not a single uncle or dad or
somebody involved in that hunt that doesn't come in my
house and we can sit and tell a thirty minute
story about that and how cold it was or how
hot it was, or who ran out of water, who
forgot their lunch, you know which one of my overweight
uncles ran out of food and had to beg for somebody.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
You know.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
It's like those sort of things. So it's like trophy
hunting in that aspect, Like in a roundabout way, it
met some sort of criteria that I had to get
it on the wall, but those are the me you know.
It somehow, in a roundabout way still leads the memories
and everything. So it's it's very hard to describe, and

(06:30):
I've always struggled with especially when you let so let's
go back to trophy hunting versus meat hunting, and not
to get overly scientific, they both obviously have the word
hunting in it, but then it's like you go and
treat trophy hunting like it's some separate thing you know
out in the woods or out in the mountains or
out in the tree stand. Like if your trophy hunting,
you're doing something different than the meat hunter, right, which

(06:52):
I've always struggled like how do you make that connection?
Because I'm doing the same regardless of I'm doing the
same thing, and and so it's not like this separate thing.
When you hear somebody say, oh, they're going trophy hunting
or they are trophy hunting, It's like, no, it's the
same damn thing as the meat hunter. I just upset

(07:13):
a different a different Like I've moved the bar, right,
I've moved the bar to a different level. And we're
gonna get into it, like a lot of times for
me if you want to lay, you know, we're gonna
be labeled a trophy hunter versus a non It's like
what tag do I have? What what is available on
this hunt? Like what's the odds of killing something better
or bigger? Or is it a unit that's managed for

(07:37):
certain things. So I've always struggled with like, it's not
a separate thing. It's the same dang thing. You know,
it's you're hunting, it's just whether you've put a certain
a certain limitation on what you're willing to not your
tag on. And so I've struggled with that, you know,
a lot, and then you alluded to it. You know,
there's this idea that you know, and this is I

(07:58):
think this is what the anti hunts, the animal lovers
whatever we're going to refer to them as, Like, this
is the picture that they want to paint, is the
idea that trophy hunters go out there, they're there for
nothing but the horns, and then they basically walk away
from the meat. Right, Like you know, we've talked about that.
It's I don't know anybody that considers themselves a hunter
or somebody that I would consider a hunter, that would

(08:20):
ever do that, even if you want to consider yourself
a trophy hunter. That and this is where I get
a little little on the fence about it is, you know,
and then you get the word thrill killer out there,
like are you just hunting for strictly the sport? Like
you just want to challenge to kill an animal that's
got you know, these senses and eyesight and all this

(08:41):
stuff to challenge you, and then you donate the meat. Right,
So you're out there, You're not gonna eat any of it,
you don't want to deal with it. But even then
I would question, like, is there a more charitable act
than that? Like that person went out there, spent their
own money, use their own resources, and then most of
the time they donate to a food bank, people and
more needs. So it's like, is there a more charitable

(09:02):
selfless act than feeding someone else with your own money?
And so I can't really shy at that either.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Well, I mean, which is harder buying a couple of
turkeys and taking them to the food bank and getting
that and spending money or whatever it is buying half
of a beef and taking it to the food bank,
spending a bunch of money donating the food bank, or
just making a monetary donation. I mean that's a good feeling, sure,
but the effort that took for that donation is I

(09:31):
mean you had to earn the money, Yeah, of course,
but to go on a trophy hunt, let's say you
don't want to eat the meat, or don't like wild game,
or can't transport it whatever, you had to like earn
the money. You had to acquire the license tag, then
you had to show up and then do all the work.
And let's face it, sometimes these trophy hunting units as

(09:53):
some call them, it's not an easy hunt. You still
have to show up and hunt hard, and it's physically demanding.
You have to you have to break the animal down,
keep the meat clean, keep it sanitary, remove it from
the field, have it packaged, process and then put it
to take it to the food bank. I mean, I

(10:15):
don't know any of that. That's way harder than just
giving a charitable, charitable donation to the food bank. From
a non hunting.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
Perspective, yep. And I can't. I can't frown upon somebody
wanting and I would be lying to say that at
times I don't hunt for the support of it right.
To be honest, I'd be four hundred pounds and still
six foot three if it wasn't fronting. So I'm out
there to get in shape. I love seeing new places.
I love you know, all of this, and so it's

(10:43):
like that there's part of me that that loves the challenge,
like I could. How am I going to say in it?
My intention is not to put down meat hunters at all,
because anybody that knows my background, you know, my my upbringing,
we never passed a legal ball. We would sometimes, you know,

(11:04):
growing up, we'd let some smaller bucks go depending on
what the meat situation was, how much meat we had
left over from last year, what the cooler was looking like.
So in no way, but I would say every time
meat hunting is easier, right, meat hunting is always going
to be easier. It's always going to be easier than
trophy hunting, and so so from a conservation and I'm

(11:26):
not trying to sit on a high horse here by
no means, but by me being and I wouldn't consider
myself a trophyuntner. I'm just a guy that's out there
wanting to find something above average. We'll say that by
doing that, I'm actually helping out on the conservation side, right,
Like I'm I'm letting a younger animal, you know, live

(11:47):
another day. I'm letting that animal grow up to be
a little bit older. I'm helping keep the numbers up
for the chance that I may not kill something by
the end of that hunt. And so you know, so
when it comes to this conservation side, it's like, all right,
I feel that trophy hunting or is better for for
for the animals on the landscape. It's it's going to

(12:07):
give you more more numbers. It's you know, you you
give them a chance to get a little bit older
and a little bit smarter, which I think helps it.
You know, these anybody that toned for very long. You know,
your your does and fawns always feel the safest. Your
small bucks, you know, sometimes feel more safe than that.
I guess as well. But you know, those animals are

(12:28):
the low hanging fruit and and uh yeah, there's that
argument as well that, uh, you know, by not being
a meat hunter, you're actually helping keep more animals on
the ground as well.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
When I was a kid, we had a lot of
deer around where I lived, and I mean there were
a ton of deer. And after the first couple of
years of deer hunting, it became apparent that, you know,
with just a little bit of effort, I'd be able
to go out and shoot a deer for meat. My family,
you know, it's always been you know, meat hunters, and

(13:04):
my dad, like especially, he's like, I don't want to
stinking bucks or I don't know want those stinking bulls.
You know, he only shot one antlered animal my entire life.
You know, when he was a young man. I think
he shot some, but most of his life he shot
you know, cow's cow, elk and doe deer. But I
loved to hunt. I hunted. I wanted to hunt every

(13:26):
single day. I didn't play sports. I wanted to hunt
every single day. I'd go out before school, I'd go
out after school. So if I tagged out on the
first nice dough, I saw my season was going to
be over. So selfishly, I wanted to hunt more. So
I'm like, I want to hold out for a big buck.

(13:48):
This is when I first started hunting deer. I didn't
have I didn't hunt helk yet, and I just wanted
to shoot a really big buck. And I'm mature deer
because I wanted to keep hunting, right, so I was.
So I started passing little bucks, started passing doughs and
stuff until I could kill a big buck. And it
made my season longer. And just for the love of

(14:10):
being out there. You know, I loved being outdoors. I
love I loved seeing lots of animals, I loved I
loved everything about it. And then you know, with the
possibility of like maybe getting a big one, and there
was lots of little ones, that got away and some
big ones that got away too, because you're like someone
picking up Oh he's gone yep. So I don't see it.

(14:31):
I don't see a problem with it.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, so let's get We'll start with in my the
arguments for trophy hunting. And I hate when we talk
about wildlife and it comes down to funding for conservation. Right,
So funding all of our states, I believe all are
managed by a fishing game agency of some sort. You know,
trophy hunts or trophy hunting is you know, conducted through

(14:57):
a regulated system where there's permits and fees. Those funds
are then used to support the wages, you know, the biologists,
the legislative people, the concert you know, that money goes
the conservation initiatives, you know, your anti poaching efforts, you know,
even local communities trophy hunting or what. And throughout this,

(15:21):
throughout this podcast, I'm gonna use trophy hunting just so
we can stay on topic. I don't necessarily consider it
trophy hunting, but for you know, the keep us on.
So trophy hunting, you know, you go to some of
these places in rule New Mexico, trophy hunting and the
good units that funds an entire community that funds most
of our fishing game agencies. You know, I always me

(15:42):
and Dirk argue all the time about non residence funding
Idaho's fishing game. But if there wasn't a potential for
me to draw a good tag, there are years I
wouldn't buy one hundred and fifty dollars license. So then
I could put my whatever it is, twelve fifteen dollars absent, right,
So that one hundred and seventy dollars, whether it's a
donation or not, I've drawn one take there. But you
give them that money, and that is what runs that states.

(16:07):
You know, whether it's winter feed. I don't even know
if you guys want her feed. I'm just going through
things in other states that do that sort of stuff.
So that funding for conservation is and I believe I
heard Clay newcom our good buddy Clay, who has a
great podcast over there at Bear Grease, when he was
on the Rogan podcast. Rogan brought up the topic of

(16:29):
trophy hunting, and I Clay did a great job on
this topic. Trophy hunting, the idea of trophy hunting is
maybe what saved our big game herds. Anyways, right, because
and the same thing that saved African game animals, it
finally put a value on them, which then detoured the
poachers because the people that put value on them now

(16:50):
protected those animals, right, And so without that protection of
being labeled a trophy animal or the animal itself now
having some intrinsic value more than the meat, actually help
save the popular you know, help in in in a way,
save that population. So there's funding in conservation. But then
that funding or the value that we put on bait.

(17:12):
You know, if you can imagine a deer walking around
with a five hundred dollars bill, you know, above their head,
like on the cartoons or on video games, like that
deer has value now because of what's the potential that's
on his head. Whether that's right or wrong or maybe
that's where you know, meat hunters can say, like, but
it shouldn't have a value like that because of what's
on its head. But I would I would love to
debate them or challenge them. Would that deer exist in

(17:36):
that place? If we just let meat hunters go and
you know, go gather all the meat they want, there
wouldn't be a whole lot left, right, We wouldn't have
anything to hunt, So there's got to be some sort
of management, which, in a round about way, I'm getting
back to the funding. Because the trophy animals and the
value that these these critters.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Do have, yeah, absolutely, you know it put it put
big game animals on a pedestal to where people respected
them and respect to their value instead of just considering
them just a food source. Which, yeah, you're you're you're
one hundred percent right.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
I'm not a biologist by any means, but I've been
around hunting my whole life. I've talked to you know,
I've interviewed tons of biologists here. You've been around animals
your whole life. I feel that once again we're going
back to trophy hunting. Trophy hunting is good for managing populations.
That's selective hunting of mature animals, whether they're past their
breeding prime, whatever we want to get into on that.

(18:38):
It's a it's a good method. Like we've in areas
where it's managed very well. And I have to I'm
not a very experienced whitetail hunter. I'm three years in.
But I let's go to like the Midwest where I
would say you're able to manage a a tight knit
population very very well. Right, They've shown through years and

(18:59):
years of doing this that it aids in the health
of your herd. You've got better animals on the landscape,
you've got and so by shooting these these younger animals
and then you've got older animals die off well, by
shooting the older animal that would die off within a
couple of years, you give the a chance for that
younger buck to escape into all of these things. And
I think out west, like we should just be able

(19:20):
to translate, you you know, transpose and move that out here. Now.
I know there's other factors. You know, we've got more predators,
we've gotten more of this or that, But I feel
like the trophy hunting mindset, killing that older, you know,
animal that's rutted hard, it's more susceptive to dying off
on a bad winter. It's going to help manage populations,

(19:41):
which gives people more opportunity, more tags, longer seasons, all
of the things that we all love, whether you're a
meat hunter or or a trophy hunter. Oh.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Absolutely, it's It's very apparent. If you look at any
any Western state, southwestern state, anywhere they have we have elk,
mule deer, and you look a limited entry units, limited
entry areas like or even like Arizona for instance, that
you know they got fantastic elk in the areas they're

(20:10):
you know, it's very limited and people are trying to
kill a trophy bowl, you know, a very mature bowl
utah mule deer in anywhere or in eastern Montana, we're
very limited access and they have giant elk and huge
olcrds everywhere. It's if they just let people go shoot
those indiscriminately, like okay, here's your general tag, go ahead,

(20:31):
those herds would not be what they are. I mean,
there's no argument about it, because you can reference other
areas where they do have a general over the cat
over the countertype tag and the herds are not as flourishing.
There's just not as many elk or deer on the landscape.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, I mean, we a lot of people in the
hunting community, like the rag on or or you know,
instantly say that fishing game offices or agencies don't do
a good job managing I think across the West they
did a pretty good job of giving us a pretty
good balance of opportunity versus like trophy. So I think,
you know, there's there's over the county units where you're
gonna go, you know, ride the struggle bus and you're

(21:09):
gonna have a ten percent chance, and then there's gonna
be units where you have a forty percent chance of
success and have a chance at a giant bowl. So
the one thing in this big and I don't I
don't envy their position at all because they're trying to balance,
you know, the extreme meat hunter to the extreme trophy
hunter and everybody in between. You everybody wants something different,
everybody hunts with a different weapon. But yeah, it's they there.

(21:32):
There's drastic differences on the landscape when a unit's managed
for trophy potential and trophy quality versus opportunity, you know,
a meat hunter's opportunity. And I would maybe, I don't know,
I didn't think very much about this argument, but I'd
almost make the argument that more meat is harvested from
these trophy units with a lot less tags, and more

(21:53):
meats harvested from these meat eater units, you know, or
meat hunter units that are over the counter, wide open
to everybody. I didn't do any fact checking on that,
but just my understanding and just you know what we see,
like all right, percentages are way higher. Yeah, there's less tags,
but you know, when you add success and it might
be close to If we're truly talking about meat ending
up in somebody's freezer, trophy units might do just as

(22:16):
good a job.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
An animal size, Right, A ten year old bull elk
is a lot bigger than a two and a half
year old bull elk. I mean, let's let's just face it.
I mean, there's a lot more meat there.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
No Dirk's getting into that one like little another little
slippery slope in here is. And trust me, I come
from a place where you know, we we you know,
the youngsters kill spike bucks and as you get older,
you kill bigger. But so I'm not I'm not saying anything.
But that's the one argument I struggle with. And I
don't know how to how to expand on it or

(22:47):
talk about it without putting somebody down, which is what
I don't want to do. You know, Switzerland, when it
comes to stuff, I just want to be in the middle.
I want everybody to do what they want to do
as long as it's legal. So I'll put that out there,
But don't make the meat hunter argument when you drove
across the state with gas prices where they are to
shoot a one and a half year old deer and
tell me that you don't care because you're a meat hunter. Now,

(23:10):
there's an argument to be made that is wild organic meat.
And but I've been there, I've I've cut open, I've skinned,
I've cut up a lot of deer and elk and
it's drastic. You know, you're getting half the deer if
that on, or you're getting half the elk on a
spike bowl versus six and a half or seven and
a half year old bowl. Maybe less maybe less meat,

(23:32):
And so.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, definitely. Well I used to work with some guys,
you know, and they were, you know, I'm just a
meat hunter. I'm like, well, I'm a meat hunter too,
and just I just like to hopefully get a more
mature animal. But like this year, I shot a spike kelk.
I mean, I'm not I'm not that much of a
trophy hunter. But i will say, you know that those

(23:54):
guys are like they would you know, by they would
shoot the first dough or the first thing, and I'm like,
why why did you shoot that thing so fast? Well,
I need the meat I need the meat. I'm like, oh,
you guys make like steaks and burger and roasts out
of it. No, no pepperoni and jerk. And I'm like, dude,
that's snacks. You're making freaking snacks. That's don't don't bullshit me.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Man. Yeah you're not. You're not sustaining your family off
of that, right.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
But you just spent to kill that deer. You could
have went to Pepperidge Farms at the mall and spent
that same money and and came away with a lot
more a lot more meat. So don't don't blow smoke
up my tailpipe.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, And so I'm gonna I'm not done with managing populations.
I think it's only fair to give both sides. And
like I say, I hopefully don't touch on this again.
I feel trophy hunting does hurt genetics in some areas,
and my example is eastern Montana. Your meal deer hunting.
Everybody wants a perfect four point, right, Yeah, they will

(24:51):
shoot a two and a half year old perfect four
point that scores one hundred and ten inches before they'll
shoot the seven and a half year old buck that's
a two by three or a crab claw buck right right.
And so this idea of trophy hunting without people maybe
fully understanding. Once again, do whatever you want if it's
legal and you got your own tag. But I feel
like sometimes we're chasing the wrong trophy at times, Like

(25:13):
if somebody pulls out a big, old, gnarly eight and
a half year old buck that has no forks and
you know, there's a big slick to you know, whatever
it may be, I feel like at times that's better
for the herd than us taking out you know, these
young four points, you know, same thing we just got
back from Kansas. I don't want to go, you know,

(25:34):
go back into that. But there's times where maybe you're
chasing an inches number and you got bucks running by that,
are you know, bucks that are way older than that,
way smarter than that, more meat than that, Like should
you take those out? And so I do think that
trophy hunting has hurt us, or hurt some people, or

(25:54):
some might not. Some people have have skewed some people's
perception of what the trophy or the challenge really is.
Like killing that two and a half year old perfect
four point was not tougher than killing one hundred and
twenty inch seven and a half year old buck that
doesn't have any forks.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, no, absolutely absolutely, So.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
That's that's one thing I wish. I wish we as
a collective group, if you are, you know, setting a
standard or setting something you're after, like let's cross really
young four points, you're really young, ten point white tails,
whatever it may be, you're really small six points with
short times, Like, hey, those things are young, Like let's
go chase a big old giant five point. Let's go

(26:35):
you know a five point bowler. Let's go chase a
big slick two point that's legal in your area. That's
you know, a bowlie buck and running all your good
you know, your good breeder bucks off and I even
have to back up, like that's assuming you care about
the future of the genetics. And maybe I'm completely off
base and this is like unbiological, you know, this isn't

(26:57):
like bi biologically founded. Like maybe it doesn't matter because
it was carried fifty percent as well. But I think
in our heads were like we want the bucks with
good forks, and we want the bucks with long times.
We want the bucks and bulls with good masks to
carry on and spread their jeans where maybe it doesn't
work that way. But that's one thing like as I've
got older and and paid more attention, like, let's just

(27:18):
kill the older, more mature deer than chasing a few
more inches on a deer that's half its age or
buck or bowl.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah. No, absolutely. Well here a couple of years ago
when we were in Montana, we were hunting with your family,
and everybody got an ice buck and we started skinning
heads out. Who had the oldest deer? I think was
it was it?

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Sandy Ye scored by far the les Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
It was like the small one of the smallest racks,
but it was the oldest deer. That thing's teeth were
almost gone. And some of the youngest deer, you know,
we're we're had bigger antlers, you know, so it was
it was interesting to see that, you know, you you
you judging you know, an animal a trophy animal by
antler size only it can be kind of kind of

(28:08):
deceiving and it you got to kind of look at
everything we we we face this in Kansas when we
go whitetail, honey, you know, it's it's like, wow, that's
a great ten point, you know, a five by five,
But look he's kind of narrow in the withers. His
his chest isn't as deep, he doesn't have a giant brisket,
his neck isn't huge, he's not sway back. You start
looking at all these other factors, like, let's not shoot

(28:30):
that one. Let's let him live and wait till, wait,
till he lives to his potential because he's not quite
old enough. He's just not old deer, even though he's
got a beautiful rack yep.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, but I I love That's why I love that,
you know, private land white Tail, because you truly can
manage a herd to the level, you know. And and
when we go there, it's it's five and a half
the goal and Randy, Randy managed it pretty strict. But
at the end of the day he's like, it's just
a deer, right, the shoot what you want, but he
wants to kill five and a half year old deer
so you can see their potential. And and I love

(29:02):
Kansas because a lot of times out West, and maybe
it's my own fault for getting in a hurry and
not looking at them through the spotter, you know long enough.
But you know, you're, like you said, you're evaluating how
old is that dear, how big is its head? How big?
You know, if you take the horns out of the
picture and you're just looking at a body, but you
know it's a buck, Like how big is he? You know,
barrel chested? You know, sway in his back? And maybe

(29:23):
I should do more of that out west. You know
a lot of times if you look at their face
long and if you can just tell how old that
buck is or his head, and you start to look
at those things, and that's a back to my you
know that The original point is I think we should
manage more on age, class or or a potential. Like
we've seen the potential of this animal. Now let's you know,

(29:45):
kill it at that point, you know, whether regardless of
what it has up there. I know it's tough. I'm
a hypocrite because I don't necessarily follow through with that.
I just think, you know, I know it would be
probably a better way to manage the herd for health
and all of that.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah. Absolutely so.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Some of the criticisms of trophy hunting, I want to
get into those. We've we've kind of already talked about that.
You know that that wasteful, the belief that it prioritizes,
you know, the vanity over the utility. I we've already
kind of wrote this one off. I don't I think
that that's smoking mirrors. It's drummed up by the anti hunters,
and it's all a bunch of hogwash. And I don't

(30:25):
I don't even think we need to spend any more
time on that, unless you got any other points you
want to throw in.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
I just think it's mud slinging from their point. You know,
they don't want us shooting anything. You know, let's just
be honest. They don't want us to kill any animals.
They want this perfect utopian world where animals run free
and nobody ever kills them. They die of old age,
curled up and next to a bed of flowers, and
you know, pass peacefully in the night. But you know

(30:49):
they're gonna try to you know, look at the work
show examples of the worst scenario. Some rich fat cat
went and paid a bunch of money and and shot
this animal for its for its antlers or its rhinoceros
horn or whatever it is. You know, you know, just
trying to make it look as bad, make the optics

(31:11):
as bad as possible. And then they go ahead and
you know, we'll just go ahead and leave out all
these other details that that I know that that that
guy paid a whole bunch of money, just kept that
whole local community of people alive for the next year,
and kept a whole bunch of other rhinos alive for
tomorrow as well. You know, they just don't paint the

(31:32):
picture that like what all that everything that's considered into hunting,
trophy hunting what it does. So it's just mud slinging,
you know.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
And they these people are very surgical and strategical right
when when they go after trophy hunting. So Disney is
the worst offender on romanticizing these animals that we've hunted
forever from the dawn of time, that we've survived on food.
I would be willing to bet nobody on the face
of this planet right now, and their entire lineage has

(32:03):
got here because of vegetables and fruit, right you wouldn't
have made it through winners. Everybody's eight bear, cougar, der, elk, sheep, buffalo, beef,
whatever it has been to be at the point there
their life. Somewhere in their lineage. I'm gonna I'm gonna
guess I'm sure somebody could show some examples. But what

(32:24):
Disney and and other cartoon makers and book writers have
did is they've romanticized these same critters into their their books.
You know, their their kid books, and you know their stories.
You know, you got you've got movies made about you know,
pet bears or bears that save people, and you got

(32:44):
movies that are and then all of a sudden, so
they use that against us and then they go after Hey,
we're gonna go after bears and cat hunters first, right,
if you like to hunt cougars, if you like to
hunt bears, if you're one of those really really bad
hunters need to use dog to kill those, Like, we're
really gonna go out for you, because that's number one.
You hate your own pack.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Of dogs because it's animal abuse.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Right, you're gonna use your hounds, and then you're gonna
chase this poor critter up into a tree and then
you're gonna kill it because you suck really bad at hunting,
And so they go after I don't want to call
it the low hanging fruit, but I feel like society
is like set this scenario up, like we're gonna put
these cute little critters we're gonna make cougars and bears
cute little critters. We're gonna put them in these books
and put them in movies, and then we're gonna go
get rid of those first, right, or I mean, we

(33:29):
can even take it to the extent of Bambi like
that thing did Hunter is the biggest disservice in the world, right,
because there's a family a deer, and and in that
movie the family and the mom and the dad gets
separated and whatever it is that you know where I'm
going with it. But then they they take that and
then use the word trophy hunting and then try to
take some of that away from us.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
And then they depict hunters as these drunken buffoons, you know,
you know, just low iqbe drunken buffoons, stumble in through
the forest shooting everything indiscriminately.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
You know, they just demonize hunters that way. So immediately
as a child, you know like, oh, hunters they're bad.
Look at that guy's a jerk.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
You know, yep. And I mean it's funny and you
can't look at the extremes all the time, but you're
like the you know, who would they want to have
around if if they couldn't grow a garden and all
you know, the world went the hell in a handbasket.
Tomorrow you're gonna need the we've got. The hunters have
the skills, whether you're a trophy hunter or meat hunter,

(34:28):
to like feed you and keep you alive. So it's
like you can depict this as as drunken buffoons and
idiots that can't but most hunters I've met are pretty
damn handy. They can take care of themselves. And but
it's it's one of those you know the criticism of
trophy huntings that were out there, you know Spring Bear
in Washington, like, Oh, these guys suck so bad at

(34:49):
bear hunting in the fall that they've got to go
kill these lethargic bears when they get out of the den. Yeah,
well that's that doesn't help us, like they but but
it's not founded in science, Like, oh, a new study
just came out the bears are more active as soon
as they come out of the den to like quickly
replenish their calorie deficite. You're like, well that, you know,
but they throw a trophy on in they throw false

(35:11):
information and it's a it's a campaign and it seems
to be more out West. They just leave the white
tails and stuff alone. But it's like out West, you know,
these these predators, these alpha predators, whether it's you know,
wolves or if you're a wolf hun or your trophy hunter,
because you're not gonna eat the meat right like, or
I'm trying to balance wildlife since they're out of balance,

(35:31):
or you're, you know, a bear hunter, and so like perception,
I feel like as a trophy hunter, and it's not
even really trophy hunting. They're just they're using that wording
to target things that they don't want to see us do,
and they're just they're trying to pick the easiest one
to get because of those voters or because of those

(35:53):
lawmakers that will side with them because they're cute and cuddly, yeah,
which has got lumped into trophy on. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
They just take everything out of context, is what they do.
You know, they love all hunters in with trophy hunting,
and we'll have a whole bunch of people, the majority
of people will probably be like, now, man, I'm just
gonna take the first legal animal I can and go
home with some meat, you know, And so they take
offense by that, which they should, but they the media

(36:22):
and the anti hunting crew, they're they're just trying to
demonize hunting in general. And I think, you know, like
what we saw here in Colorado with the whole trying
to get rid of mountain lion hunting there, it didn't pass,
and I almost think it might have backfired a little
bit because so much information got put out into the

(36:43):
world about what mountain lion hunting and management is all about,
and might have enlightened a lot of new people that like,
oh I didn't know about that, you know, maybe they'd
even vote vote on it, maybe, you know, but they
like they got a different perspective. So I think if
anything good came out of that, then I think just

(37:06):
more information out there in the world from another side
instead of that one sided media.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
So I got a question for you, you know, kind
of rolling the meat hunting. If we had to separate
the two, which I have a hard time doing, I
think it's a very blurred line. I just think it
met you know, the only difference is the age or
the quality of animal you're willing to take. Why is
meat hunting, seeing it as more in your opinion, more
universally acceptable, why does it face less, you know, backlash
from the public.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
I don't know. I think that because they, like I say,
they kind of there try to paint that narrative of
some rich jerk going out and just killing stuff with
his check book instead of you know, just you know,
they don't even talk about the meat being utilized, you know,
like any of these African animals. They it matt about.
You know, the villagers eat every bit of that animal,

(38:04):
like everything, They use every bit of it. They use
the hide, they use the bones, they use everything. But
you'll never see that, you know, on their narrative. They'll
just like, oh, this guy paid three hundred thousand dollars
to shoot Cecial the lion.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well I'm pretty sure the villagers ate Cecil the lion, yeah,
and made something out of your skin.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Or they were able to use or they're able to
use that money to create a new water system like
you know or whatever schools you know, vital Yeah, like, oh,
we'll forget about like the good deeds that are done
to the you know. And and obviously the biologists at
some point had said this lion needs to or it
can be taken out of the the you know, the area. Yeah,
and it was acceptable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
It helped those local folks live another year, you know,
in a in a hostile environment where food and money
doesn't come easy.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
You know.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, our Western opinion, in Western culture, we we don't
even understand what those poor folks go through over there
to to live every day. And I think nobody ever
thinks about that when they get incensed about oh that
guy killed it a zebra or that guy killed a
giraffe or what? How dare them? You know, that's it's

(39:17):
a different world there, yep.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
And I've always just struggled why does it face less
public backlash than trophy hunting. I've got a tag, I'm
making a decision again, and the chances that there's I'm
reiterating a lot of my points, there's a chance that
more animals are going to survive by me, you know,
setting setting a bar than not. So why is there
less public backlash? Is it because the word we put

(39:42):
in front of hunting is I'm out there for a
different reason though No, I'm still out there to fill
the freezer. I just like it's just baffling to me,
and it's it's the most quick reduction, Like a lot
of times things are more complex or nuanced, like all right,
there's a lot of you know, stuff to navigate here.
I'm like, no, it's literally me doing the exact same thing.
I just pulled the trigger on something a little different

(40:03):
that that you know has a higher probability that something lives.
Like you should hate meat hunting more than trophy hunting
if you had to, if you had to pick something,
like you should you know, anti hunters should hate meat
hunting way more than they hate trophy hunting.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Right, because there's more lives, animal lives being lost to
meat hunting than the trophy hunting.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Because I don't understand it's more selective, right, yep, yep,
you know it's like, oh, meat hunters they have a
better connection to nature. I'm like no, Usually I'm out
in the woods longer if i'm if I'm after it,
So my connection to nature is better. I feel like
I'm more in tune, Like I've got to think more,
Like I can go to as I'm just not meant
to sound that way. I'm not saying I'm that good,

(40:42):
but like I can go to most places and kill
something that's legal very quickly. Right, I've got to be
dialed in, like where's the most mature animal in the
mountain gonna live? Or like where's a nook and cranny,
Like it's sometimes a harder place to get to, not always,
but like I'm having to think more versus so in
my opinion, that's bilding a deeper appreciation for the wildlife
and what it takes to get to that age and maturity.

(41:04):
And they've got an ability to think different. So I
don't understand how a meat hunter, you know, the argument,
Oh they're they're really connected to nature, or they've got
a more appreciation for the wildlife they're hunting. Like, No,
I don't buy it. Like it can be equivalent but
not more.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, And I think it's just pure and simple that
it's a lot harder to demonize someone who is hunting
for sustenance, you know. And I think the last I
don't know, five years or better, I'm like there's a
lot of I think a lot of more people who
are more enlightened and like less against hunting. Now now

(41:42):
that the kind of the everybody's all the meat industry
and everything, they'll have the whistle blown on them, right,
everybody's starting to see all the crap they put in
our food. They're poisoning us with all this stuff. That's
a completely different rabbit hole. But I think a lot
of people are awakening to the fact that like the
stuff you buy it at the store isn't maybe necessarily

(42:03):
that healthy. So wild meat, wild game is a lot
healthier for you. And the conditions at livestock are held
in you know, feed yards, all these different places. It's
not the it's not a pretty picture. It's not a
it's not a great picture. Whereas a deer or elk,
they lived a beautiful free life their whole life, and

(42:24):
finally one day a hunter took their life, put them
down humanly. They didn't get eaten to death while they're
eaten alive by coyotes, wolves, bears, cougars, whatever. They didn't
get killed in a brutal fashion by nature per se.
They're taken down by a hunter. But as humans, we

(42:46):
are part of nature. We've been part of nature since
the dawn of time. So to take to say that
it's not natural for a hunter to kill an animal
is hogwash. It's preposterous. You know, we've been here since
the animals have been here, yep, And so it is natural.
It is a natural thing for us to kill, to

(43:07):
kill an animal. But back to your point, Yeah, it's
just easier to demonize, you know it. You can make
trophy hunting look bad and and poo poo on that
way easier than you can just someone sustin it's hunting.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah, now it's it's a it's a tricky subject. I
feel like those that hunt, whether for me or trophy hunting,
like understand it very clearly. It's not that you know,
it's not that different. I feel like the the the
the shade has been cast from outside the arena and

(43:42):
we're kind of left to deal with it. But I
I do kind of to go back to my point,
I feel like as hunters, we need to do a
better job of explaining why we do exactly what we
do and and you know, to kind of kind of
wrap this thing up. It was just kind of a
conversation on trophy hunting in our own opinions, but we
just need to do a better job as hunting, you know,

(44:02):
as hunters as a collective group, explaining why we do
what we do. And back to my opinion, and it's
the easy way out, But as long as the biologists
agree that there should be tags. You've got to tag
for that unit and the animal that you shoots legal
and you're not wasting anything. Like who am I to
say what you should be doing while you're out there.
If you want to shoot a spike that's a you know,
a year and a half old or a the button buck,

(44:25):
because that's what you want to do, or you need
to meet by all means do it. If you want
to go out there and never shoot, you know, you
you could have killed hundreds of animals and you shoot
one every ten years because you only want the biggest
thing ever to put on your wall. As long as
you're taking the meat home, by all means, do it.
But I I always kind of joke these meat hunters.
I would love to be there with a meat hunter

(44:46):
and set a big old, you know, four point a
giant four point buck alongside of a spike and see
which one they shoot. And I would even take it
as far as put a giant four point buck next
to a spike bowl, maybe a little more meat on
the spike bowl, and we'll see which one they shoot.
We're all meat hunters, quote unquote meat hunters until something
BIG's around I think there's a very few, very few

(45:08):
guys that they are gals or hunters in general. They
were like, yeah, I'll take the less the less mature,
or the less impressive animal. You can talk a big
game until you're in the situation that everybody turns into
a trophy hunter.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Right right, I mean that would probably be true in
most cases. I will say my dad would tell me
every time i'd leave the house to go hunting when
I was a kid, he'd be like, Hey, now, don't
be shooting none of them big stinky bucks or big
stinky bulls. Try to get a nice dry dough or
a nice dry cow if you can. He would tell
me that every time, And when I'd come home with
a bowl or a buck, He's just like, Ah, what'd

(45:44):
you kill this thing for? Oh, this thing's been rotten.
It's stakes, you know, the hair, the fur stinks or whatever.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's a tricky subject. I just uh,
like I say, there's trophy honting in my opinions, just
meat hunting. Uh. For a little more meat and a
little better warns is all. That's the only difference. Umanized
demonized by the outside and anything you have to add
Dirk or anything we need to close off with. I

(46:11):
know this is you know, Christmas is right around the corner.
I'll let you do your spill. You're you have a
better like ADS marked you.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
I need to use my my announcer, radio announcer.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
You can use whatever voice you want. I don't want
to steal your thunder here at you.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
No, no, not yeah. With Christmas around the corner, you know,
don't forget your favorite elk hunter or deer hunter. We
do have stocking stuffers at Phelipsgame Calls dot Com. Don't
want to be a big pushy salesman here, but don't Yeah, yeah,
I think of your your favorite hunter and and we've
got some cool stuff that doesn't break the bank and
can fill stocking or or you know, maybe they want

(46:47):
that beautiful beegle tube that you know that's their main present.
I mean I would kill for one of those. And
I was, you know, when I was a kid. You know,
somebody about me bugle tube.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
So so if you were a meat hunter, or what
elk you get, if you're a trophy hunter, what elk
called you get? I should have answered.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
That, Well, I'm just gonna be honest if if you
just want to take home, if you want to be
a tag notcher, you just need to get a Maverick.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Maverick. If you want to be a trophy hunter, then
you get.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
The pink no, you get the no, and you get
the Maverick. The I mean, the Maverick will do everything.
I mean you're dogging off. Get a Maverick. Wife left
your Maverick.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Boy, it's getting deep at Maverick. If you're listening right
now and you're in a safe spot, you should start
rolling up your pants because it's getting deep. Good. All right, Well,
thanks for jumping on, Derek. It was, like I said,
it was just something that popped up and wanted to
switch a little bit from tips and tactics and yeah,
just go out there and hunt because you love it.

(47:44):
You know, hunt because you want to fill the freezer
with organic meat that's not you know, add hormones injected it.
Whatever it is, just go out and hunt because you
love it. Whether it's family and friends, whether it's telling stories,
whether it's drinks around the campfire, whether it's whatever it is,
go out there and do it as long as it's legal,
and don't worry about what anybody else, you know, questions

(48:04):
you're reasoning for doing it.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Yeah, but but have self awareness to know that if
you're gonna put that stuff out there, if you're gonna
put share your pictures, your success photos or your hunting
trip photos, always give context, you know. Don't just say
guild this buck got her done, you know, tell tell

(48:26):
about it, why.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
What you know?

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Expand on it. This isn't just a bang bang, shoot
them up thing, you know. Expand why why do you
kill that? Why do you enjoyed the hunt? Why you
enjoyed your friends? Yeah, I mean you have to, you
have to you know. Yeah, we shouldn't have to answer
to anyone. Absolutely I agree with that, And I take
I take offense by trying to like have to appease
all these you know, anti hunting people. I'm not really

(48:51):
trying to appease any anti hunting. Those people are already gone.
There're no convincing them that hunting is good. But people
who who are watching silently, quietly, who are on the fence,
who don't hunt, And if you paint a really nice picture,
it's like, yeah, I like that. You know, camaraderie, family friends,
you know, found a you know, you know, want to

(49:12):
spend a full season hunting, trying to find a mature animal,
not just to kill and discriminately whatever. I mean, if
you can paint a great picture, it just leaves a
better taste in people's mouth. It just does.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah, and we're you brought up another point. We're trying
to wrap this up and we just keep going. We're
not the judge and jury. But I'd also urge people
that there's some stuff left that's left to be on
your phone and not meant for social media. Like like
Dirk said, he's not trying to pease anybody, but there
are things that can do harm. They keep it on
your phone, share it with friends and family, even if

(49:45):
you want to share it. Like some stuff, there's just
stuff I'm not proud of that happens, like life or
death out there. It's real. It affects me, like just
we don't.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Have to show it, right, you don't have to share
that with the world. Yeah, there's just something you know,
and I feel like, you know, just have a little decency. Hello,
respect for the animal, have a respect for the people
who Let's just say, you know, I've spent a lifetime
hunting and I grew up in a household with a
different mindset versus people who've never been hunting, and if

(50:16):
they see something that's like maybe commonplace, like a gratuitous
headshot of an animal or or something else, that is
beyond disturbing for them because they're not used to seeing
an animal die, they're not used to seeing someone take
a life, and what might be kind of commonplace or
like desensitized us because we've been there, done that, whatever,

(50:39):
It doesn't mean we should maybe share it with the world.
Those those I've and I've seen some and I've been around.
I've been around, I've shot a lot of animals, and
I've seen some videos where people like, you know, like
some gratuitous headshot of an animal. It's disgusting. I don't want.
I don't want to see that. I don't. I don't.
I can guarantee nobody else wants to see that. It's

(51:03):
it ain't cool.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Yeah, if you if you want to show us how
good of a shot you are, go shoot a paper
target and share that, like is it hunter? You can
give somebody a fist pump like great shot, but we
leave it at that, like that stays in the woods.
The the mess is there. You nobody needs to see it, nobody.
And as a hunter that you know, you know, just
like you dealt with a lot of life and death

(51:24):
and and and you know you wanted to be quick
and ethical, like just just leave it off there. I
know we're going down a different rabbit hole, but God,
I think sometimes we're our worst, our own worst enemies,
like clean ethical, you know, limit it to the the
I don't even I'm to the point maybe I'm getting softer.
Like I was watching something I was sick the other
day and I was watching a lot of white til
hunting on TV. Some people edit out. They'll show you

(51:46):
the shot, and then they'll like show you the animal
dead across the field, and then some people show you
like the deer running all over spinning or like staggering
for minutes with blood. I'm like, I don't want to
see that either.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Yeah, like disturbing just a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
I don't like that. I don't like that moment of
time between the shot hitting it and the animal being
like fully fully expired. Like I don't like that timeline
at all. I don't like anything about it.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
I don't I don't like watching it myself. I don't
like to see. I don't like to sit there and
watch the animal, you know, slowly let life slip from
its eyes or you know, from its body, like in
the blood whatever. I don't I don't take joy and
seeing that. I don't. I don't, I don't watch that.
It's it is disturbing. Even as a hunter, I've I've
killed lots of animals, and I don't take any kind
of joy in seeing that.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah. Yeah, So there's a public service announcement for everybody.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Let's let's go back to the trophy hunting things. They
will lump that right in with trophy hunt. They will
take those examples, say look at what this trophy hunter did. Yep,
and it just gives it gives us a bad name,
a bad bad look.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
Yeah. Well, thank you everybody for tuning into cutting in
the distance.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Thanks guys at