Ep. 124: Drawing a Line on Technology

Jason and Dirk discuss how the advancements in technology may push the boundaries of ethics, fair chase, and how it is shaping the future of hunting. They tackle subjects like thermal, smart scopes/sights, cell cams, drones and AI.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today,
I've got maybe my favorite guest on my most my.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yeah, hey there he is, Hey Dirt, Oh hey there.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Uh no, I think I was looking. I said, you're
by far my most repeat guest. You've probably had twelve
or thirteen episodes with me that I've posted.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Holy count. Wow.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
I appreciate having me back.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Do What is this kind of like on YouTube when
you get so many appearances, you get like a little
cool plaque and yeah, mail, I can, I can put
it on social media and put hanging on my wall.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah yeah. No. In reality and all transparency, what happens
is when nobody else wants to be on my podcast
with me, I resort to Dirk so we can have conversations.
So you're playing second fiddle here, Dirk. But it's kind
of a pat on the back and a slap in
the face at the same time.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
There. Well, I mean, I mean you stood, you've been
my boss for how long? And then you're just like, hey,
you need to do this and that, and you just
boss me around and I'm like, yess.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
I felt like it was early this morning we're recording.
Here is all the Sportsman shows are getting kicked off,
and we've got got our workers traveling around and I
kind of came to you with my tail between my legs, like, Dirk,
do you mind hopping on the podcast here early this
morning so I don't just talk to myself? And here
we are.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, you interrupted my my morning procedure. You know, you
put you put the avovocado mask and the cucumbers on
your face, over your eyes and stuff and had to
wipe all that stuff off to do this. So I mean,
you look good.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
You look good. It's been working. Yeah, and then you're
right here avocado toast after you I did. Yeah, that's
such a weird, weird food, but I'm gonna leave that alone.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah, I wouldn't know what it tastes like, and I
never will.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
I do like avocados, I do like toast. I just
never thought that we put those two together, right, all right? No,
we got Dirk here, and it's actually probably the most
perfect episode, or one of the most we've We've disagreed
and debated, and we may disagree and we may agree
on a lot of these issues, but we want to
talk about technology and how it relates to hunting. If

(02:12):
there should be aligned drawn if there shouldn't be aligning
drawn how we should how we look at it. I
don't want to say how we should look at it
as a group because I think everybody's going to like
have their own opinions. Right, there's no right or wrong answer,
And ultimately it may be up to these fish and
wildlife departments that we all love to bag on. But
it's not a very easy decision at times, right, how

(02:34):
are you going to handle this? Or how you going
to handle that? And I think a lot of just
personal opinion, ethics, morals, your definition of fair chase comes
into these. So we got a list of things, and
it's going to be more like a yay, nay, a
discussion on the wire, how come, and then we'll move
on to the next one.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
So you realize, no matter what your opinion is, that
I'm going to take the opposite.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
I there's some of them you can't here though. I
don't think I think we're we're gonna have to agree
on some but I know right off about we're going
to disagree on on on the first topic, okay at time,
and we will have a good discussion. I think we've
had this discussion before and maybe.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
I'll even fight you a little bit and then secretly
agree with you.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Agree, like just real quick.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
So the first thing, and we've had a lot of
conversations on this. Some states have band that some haven't
like your own. To my knowledge, it's the thermal vision,
thermal scopes, thermal imagery movement. You know, there's I live
in the Pacific Northwest where if nobody's hunted here, similar
to probably how you hunt in northern I know, for
white tills, it's industrial timberlands, clearcut timber jackfur type country. Right,

(03:40):
You've got different stages of fur trees, hemlock trees in
different stages of growth. So the way we hunt typically
is you pull up to a landing where you're looking
across the canyon, across the draw and you're trying to
look into the face of the clearcut and spot deer. Well,
after three or four years, it gets very grown up.
And so like around home, the better blacktail hunters or

(04:02):
the guys that are able to spot you because you
could sit there all day and if these deers aren't
you know, these deers deer aren't moving, you may not
spot them. Versus if you can do a quick scan
with thermal, move to the next one, even behind somebody
that's already looked at first in the morning, you're more effective.
You know, we've we've talked to or met people that
are using them in Idaho like effectively. You know, you

(04:25):
might be on a hike in in the morning like oh, shoot,
here's deer here, like let's not disrupt them, or like
I'm having to make the decision, like I just need
to get to this point by daylight. Right, So there's
this thermal where it has its its pros. Collns. What's
your opinion on thermal? Should it be allowed? Should take uh?
Should states take that stand and start to limit them?

(04:48):
Are you? Are you in your opinion? Should it be
separated between big game versus predators? Like where you're at
on night vision or and thermal?

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Right? I think selfishly, I think they're awesome, and they
they're cool, and they're just they'd be really fun to
have a buddy of mine last fault, him and I
went deer hunting and in North Idaho, and there's just
you know, you just don't steal a lot of deer.
But in your mind you think, yeah, but these white tails,

(05:19):
you know, they're all, they're all caked up. You know,
they're nocturnal or this or that or you know, and
you can glass across the big canyon into some brushy
pockets and stuff, and you can sit there all day
and you're just like, I'm not seeing no deer. They're
just not moving today. Well, you pull out the thermal,
and you know, thermals have their limitations, you know, if
it's warm, you know, like in September, for instance, once

(05:40):
the sun rises, you'd have a hard time seeing stuff
to just the ground gets too warm. But when they're
snow on the ground and the sun comes up, you
can you have some you have time to to to
check things out. But you know, so you pull up
to one of these places and you start glassing around
with that thermal, and you you soon realize there are

(06:02):
no deer over there. If there were, I mean, you
can see rabbits, Like at eight hundred yards you can
see a rabbit. So it's they're kind of crazy. But
we did spot some deer and we were we would
sit there, we'd spot a deer and be like, oh man,
that one's in a brush pile somewhere. I bet it's
a really big old buck. Just hiding out. So you

(06:22):
get out the spotter and you can sit there for
thirty minutes with a spotter and just tear that piece
of brush apart, and then finally you catch an ear.
Oh yeah, that's a dough whatever. So I think, I
think if we weren't really successful finding a big well,
we did see some bucks and one was like a

(06:43):
butter light shooter, but then it was you know, too
far away. It was a cross. You know, we were
able to you know, find it with our glass and
and find it with the glass even in the open
sometimes can be hard. The deer really blend in and
you know, we've been hunting for a long time. We're
pretty good with spotting stuff, but you know, they blend
in good. But it was it was a no brainer,
super easy with the thermal. But the deer was still

(07:06):
a long ways away, so there was no shooting. But
I guess the point, like you know, selfishly, you know, yeah,
heck yeah, you know, when especially when there's not a
lot of deer a large deer population, you really you
really want any legal advantage you can get. But ethically, man,
I always liked, I always like to err on the

(07:26):
side of the deer, and I know, I know you've
always said this, and you and I've had a lot
of debate about this, and I just egg you on
because I want to piss you off, because you feel
pretty passionate about it. So I always take the I
always take the opposite side, just to wind you up,
just like you do sometimes with me. But honestly, you know, yeah,
I think, definitely think they should be out lowed. I

(07:47):
don't think that should be legal. I mean, and they're expensive,
you know, for the good ones. They're eight thousand, ten
thousand dollars for one, So then it becomes back to
that game of only rich guy can afford to do
it right. So it's just it's bad all the way across.
In my opinion, it's bad. It's bad optics, it's not ethical,

(08:10):
and it's not you know there again, you're excluding the
everyday hunter, the every day working Joe who can't afford
that kind of crap, and so it's just an unfair
advantage in my opinion. Definitely.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, And then we're gonna talk about some of these
other things. But when you couple thermal in with maybe
long range ability or a scope that can dial itself,
You're like, at what point did I do anything that
required some skill or some hunting ability. You know, when
when we talked to Grandpa, you know, he was always like,
you know, working in the woods, being a good woodsman,
being able to walk on logs, being able to be

(08:45):
absolutely silent in his white new balanced tennis shoes, white elkhunts,
like those were the things that made him successful. And
now you're like, somebody shows up scans with thermal, gets
their long range you know, five thousand dollars long range
gun out clicks their scope so it adjusts the radical form.
They didn't have to do that. They ordered their AMMO

(09:05):
from some custom Ammo place that maybe you know, so
you know where I'm getting is like this person did
nothing but ultimately squeeze the trigger and maybe they drove
to that spot at some point, right, And that's where
I struggle, And not that I've I've been. I've gotten
a lot better over the last five years of like

(09:26):
hunting no longer competition, So I'm not jealous of these guys, right,
I've I do have the means. If I wanted to
have a ten thousand dollars thermal, I would have one.
I mean it's just the reality I could. I could
do it if I wanted to. So it's the jealousy
of that. It's just it goes back to what you
just touched on, and I'm getting better recognizing it and

(09:47):
hopefully it doesn't go full swing and I end up
on peda side protecting the animals. But like I'm I
root for the animals even when I'm hunting them. And
it's crazy for a hunter to be like rooting for it.
But like last year Idaho, you know, you know where
we were at and on that buck hunt, mildiar hunt,
I got whipped a couple of times by by this

(10:08):
big buck and why it sucked at the time, and
I was trying to do everything in my power to
figure it out. Like at the end of that day,
or you know, even the next day when you're reflected,
you're like, man, that that's a cagyal buck. I'm glad
I get a chance to hunt him. Yeah, and he
may win and I may never kill him, but it
was cool that he lived and I could get a
chance to hunt him, and maybe it'll make a great
story for next year when I come back and find him,

(10:29):
you know, And and I just I feel like and
this is where where do you draw the line? Like,
all right, well, then should I be able to use
a three by nine scope on a seven mag Should
I have to use open sites in a lever gun?
Like at some point in this and this is where
this conversation always goes. Well then it's like all right,

(10:50):
and we're gonna get there in a little bit, but
like where do you draw the line? And so that's
what we're going to kind of look at as we
go through these these next few topics.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah, well hit the thermal thing again too. It's like
you know, I said, you know, I didn't. We didn't
see a lot of deer and we didn't see any
any real big bucks. We saw one shooter. But have
other people with thermals been hunting that and they did
shoot the big ones? I mean you have to think
that too. Like that always went through my mind. It's like, man,

(11:20):
did somebody already already cream these bucks out?

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Because they had thermals and they knew, Like, you know,
So I don't like it. I don't. I don't. I
don't like I say I always vote for the deer.
I was always advocate for the deer. If that means
shortened my season a little bit. That means, you know,
making some radical changes. That way we still have deer
to hunt. You know, I will help protect those deer.

(11:46):
That way we can hunt them tomorrow. Like I'm not
enjoyed to be to like you said, but yeah, but
damn it, I I really I want there to be
to deer here tomorrow or elk here tomorrow to hunt.
But now for predators during non big game if it's
not big game season and you're out there with one
of those or it's like nighttime and you are really

(12:07):
doing it, I mean, I feel like poachers are gonna proach.
You know, if you didn't have a thermal rifle scope,
you'd be out there with a spotlight shooting deer or
elk at night. Yeah. But like I'm all for that,
you know, shooting, you know, predator management because those you know,
that needs to happen, you know, they those numbers need
to be kept in check so they don't eat too
many of our deer milk.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah. And then the culmbination of those two is what's
creating the issue in Washington right now, is because thermals
are legal for predators, not legal for big game but yet,
who's going to just shove one in the center console
of their truck? And oh, I was just in here
from my hunt the other night. You know, the only
thing we don't allow is thermal scopes to be used

(12:48):
to shoot you know, the animals at night is the
only thing protecting them. But you know, as long as
you can have daylight optics joined in with those, like, yeah,
it's illegal, but I don't know, it's a slippery slope
of is it being it can't be managed And there's
there's you know, I didn't just make up this, uh
you know this example of the thermals being shoved in
the center council like that's how it's being done for

(13:09):
people to exploit that.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Right right, Well, they have to draw a hard line,
you know for the bad apples. The bad apples, they
ruin everything all in every case of every everything you
talk about, there's always some jerk that ruins it for everybody.
So there you go. I mean, if if it means,
you know, during big game season, you're not allowed to
have one of those on your person, possession in the
field at all, period, zero zip, that's the only way

(13:32):
to manage it.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yep, yep, and the only thing is if this was
legal for everybody, which it makes it an unfair advantage
once again to people with money, is we ma end
up with a two day year season, and I don't.
I love being out there more than that, like, and
that's the you know, so yeah, and all of these
things could ultimately affect you know, it's just the effectiveness
of of a hunter is ultimately the only result if

(13:54):
the fish and wildlife is doing their job is the
limit seasons shortened dates, limit tags, reduce to take because
of the effectiveness. And that's my biggest concern is I'd
rather be out there if you told me I could
hunt all three months, you know, September, October, November, but
I'd use a thirty thirty. I might pick that, you know,
get prime seasons or whatever. Oh yeah, you told me

(14:16):
if you use the rifle, we can only hunt for
four days. I'd be like, Ah, that doesn't sound near
as cool, you know. And so that's where my head's
at on all of this is I just want opportunity
for people, and the kill isn't necessarily does not outweigh
the time, the adventure, the experience. For me.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, absolutely, I agree.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
Okay, moving into range finding scopes that you know, the
precision is at an unfair advantage, should technology be removed? Now,
I know some states do have laws, and I apologize
I didn't go look at like every state. This is
just a discussion about the ethics and our own opinions
on this. But like I know, like range finding scopes.
You know, I believe Buris has like an optical or

(14:57):
oculus or something. Sour has one that talks and automatically
moves radicals correctly. Yeah, correct, I'm not fully up, but
I do know there's technology, a burst eliminator, the bd
X from SIG coupled with weather stations takes any hold

(15:19):
on I'm gonna choose my words carefully. They take the
skill out of being the marksman that, like, you know,
just range finding, you know, find a true line of sight,
whether the elements putting it into a calculator. But then
some may say that that in itself, just having the
ability to shoot that far accurately is the advantage. What's
your take on? Like specific to range finding scopes that

(15:41):
adjust radicals, there's no dialing, no math being done well.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
First and foremost, I think you have to be a
good enough shot a good enough guy pulling the trigger
to actually make some of these shots, right. I know,
you know you can take ten people, line them up
and say, right, grab your old hunting rifle, bess, and
shoot that that gong at three hundred yards and you

(16:06):
guys got you know, we've had this debate since elementary school, right,
And I bet there'd be a very few that would
just be able to like, you know, grab grab their
old hunting rifle and hit that, you know, with without
movable turrets, without you know, uh, without a smart scope
or whatever. That's gonna gonna change the point of impact,

(16:29):
you know, for for trajectory, for wind, et cetera. So
but those same people I still think would struggle with
you know, they had a ten thousand dollars rifle and
all the program and all the stuff. I still think
they would struggle to maybe make a good make a
good shot. They might make a bad shot. And I
think this is kind of where it kind of goes

(16:49):
a little right for me, is maybe people push the
envelope of their actual effective range. Of course, ethics is always,
you know, ethics, it's kind of got to be something
you judge on your own. You know, your own perceived ethics.
But then again, like some people don't have that moral

(17:09):
compass inside their heads, so they may take a you know,
it's like, oh, it's eight hundred yards. I'm really good
to six hundred, but it's eight hundred and that's a
really big buck or a really big bull. So I'm
gonna push it. I'm gonna take that. I'm gonna try
for it. Yeah, and they make a bad hit or
maybe they miss. But the the ones that you're talking about,

(17:32):
that that are self, that the redical, you know, you
range it like the range finding scopes or the range
finding You have a rangefinder connected to the scope and
the radical and you you range it and then the
lights up on the radical lights up and the correct
hold over in the scope. Those kind Yeah, they they

(17:56):
work pretty good. They're they I've seen them work before.
I've seen them work good in Idaho. They're illegal, and
I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. I feel
like I feel like there still has to.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Be some.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Mystery and some do your own do your own diligence
and do your own work on the side to where
it's like, Okay, I'm gonna make a very very accurate shot,
and maybe that kind of sort of filters out some
people that maybe would would it, wouldn't put in the practice,
wouldn't put in the time, you know, to make it

(18:32):
a good clean shot. Just personally, I know, you know,
I don't know if I can sit here and back
it up and just say, you know, this is why
I don't like it. But I just don't really like
that myself. I feel like there's yeah, I don't I'm
not for it.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, I don't like the idea of it. But then
I also think when I go into my ballistics app
entering all the data that either I have to get
off of weather station or something I do at the
beginning of the day, and I'm gonna be hunting for
this elevation. It's about this temperature, it's about this humidity.
And then I've got to go in there and make
the adjustments based on you know, what I what I
feel is right, and what I feel the wind is
make the wind call. And one thing that I do

(19:12):
recognize is up and down or drop is a very
simple calculation, right right, bullet drop is It's the art
all comes into win for the most part, unless you
know you're in steep canyon country overridges, and you got
ups and downs you're trying to figure out, but the
majority of the skill comes in your left and right
and wind. So I just I don't know if it's

(19:36):
the skill because you just enter in parameters. But there's
something about going to an app that's on a you know,
the iPhone fifteen, so like you're trying to take technology
out of it, but at the same time, like I'm
going to an iPhone to do my calculations. Why I'm hunting.
I just I don't know. I don't I don't like

(19:57):
the idea of like instantaneous adjustments so that a guy
that maybe you said was proficient at five hundred, but
he's like, oh, this scope will just move to eight
hundred for me. I'll just shoot it wherever that dot
ends up or the crossair ends up, I'll be fine.
Like the you know, I don't like it. I don't
like where it's you know that it takes that little

(20:17):
bit of skill out. And one thing that you talked
about people overshooting, I've always wondered about this. I don't
know how you administer it and if it's too much overreach,
but I would love to have like some shooting efficiency test,
but then I don't know how you you.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
But then, yeah, if the guy only wants to shoot
a hundred yard deer in the timber, why should he
have to take that test necessarily? Maybe he needs to,
But then the guy that wants shoot five hundred needs
to take a test. But then it's not like when
you get out in the woods, it stops you from
shooting that seven hundred yard you know, shot that you're
only proficient to five hundred. I just sometimes I wonder,
like I wish there was a way, but there isn't

(20:54):
until you start to limit optics, grains of powder like
in a piece of brass, Like there's there's ways, But
then then you may just be forcing people to like
test their six and a half creed more on a
you know, fifteen hundred yard shot. I don't know it
because if people have the ethics or morals they do,
you may never change at And so I know, I
know the conversations going a little sideways here, but I don't.

(21:15):
I just don't like the idea of range finding scopes
for the reasons that there's doesn't seem like there's a
lot of skill involved.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Right, right, I feel like maybe people put a little
less time and effort into mastering the craft, and maybe
there's the potential for making a bad shot or pulling
off a bad shot. I don't know. I think for predators, absolutely,
you bet use them on predators all you want. It's
like wolves, coyotes, bobcats, whatever, because typically you're not going

(21:45):
to eat those, right, you know, big game but big
game animals, yeah, they deserve I think they deserve more.
And then one more little little point like to throw
in to like dial in your turrets and stuff. But
the guy that said, oh yeah, I'm really good at
six hundred yards, but eight hundred yards but still might
make try to take that shot, he's probably the same

(22:05):
guy that had the old three by nine with a
duplex radical and holding that thing, you know, seven feet
over its back saying I think I can hit that thing.
Like I feel like there's always going to be those people, unfortunately,
But but I don't know how you police that. I mean,
I mean, teacher sons and daughters better, right, and you know,

(22:26):
just create a we I think as hunters we need
to to. That's how you make your changes is educate
and instill those values in the young the next generation.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
All right, let's move into maybe one of the newer,
newer things we've seen, and it's going to be a
two part in our our I think our answers would
be a little bit different. Drones for scouting and then
drones for recovery. What's your opinion on on these.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
I haven't really thought about it too much. I know
drones are cool for all the cool shots for cinematography,
you know, and there's laws that say you can't use
those for hunting, which I agree with. I mean, like,
if you're let's say, your standing at the very bottom
of River Valley and it's a two thousand vertical climb
up to where the elk may live, I mean, you

(23:22):
could just shoot your drone up there. I guess if
it had those if it had those abilities, your drone,
particular drone, shoot it up there. Scope arounds like, oh yeah,
there's no elk around here, Well let's not. Let's go
to the next place. I mean that you definitely could
use it in that in that way. Now is that
I don't I don't think that should be legal. I
think that's you know, you're just letting excuse me you're

(23:45):
letting the drone do the dirty work, and you know
you don't have any skin in the game. I'm there again.
Let's let's give these animals a chance. Now, let's say
you did hike up there, you still got to hike up,
find them again and kill them, which can sometimes still
be very, very difficult. But since they do move, it's
not like they're tied up. But still, I don't really

(24:08):
like that, honestly. Yeah, now, now for now, And then
you said for recovery. So let's say you have a
drone with a thermal and you want to runt around.
Let's say you had a marginal hit or a bad
hit on an elk or a deer or whatever. You
want to rent it around. I think that's permissible, right.
You know, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're trying to you're

(24:28):
trying to make sure that animal doesn't go to waste.
You know, the law says, you know, I'd go to
every every legal length to get that animal taken back home,
and I and I would think that would be that
would be fine. It would be a slippery slope though,
for the folks who are going to try to use
that drone again. To scout. You know, they got that

(24:49):
thermal thing on there, they're gonna fly it up. Look around,
hold man, there's a whole field full of deer over there,
and we'll just go on over there or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, no, that we're agreeing way too much. This isn't
how I intended this podcast to go.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
But maybe you should give your opinion first and then
I can I can chop you out at the knees.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
No, No, I'm a kidding. Yeah, here, I'll try this,
but it's I'm lying. Yeah, I think you should be
able to just sit in a spot in the unit
and fly your drone until you find elk and then
finally walk up that. No, I'm in complete agreement with Dirk.
I hate the idea of not having to sweat have
a little bit of sweat equity, and like Dirk said,
there is I do recognize there is a difference between

(25:28):
knowing where elk are at and killing them, but I
don't think that the advantage of the knowing and killing.
You shouldn't just get to go be an elk right
away because you didn't climb up the ridge, or you
didn't climb up maybe the ridge acrossway that's only a
five hundred foot gain, but you needed to be able
to glass over something. And like, in my opinion, there
should be some work required before this is gonna sound weird,

(25:51):
like have a chance, like take that Elk's life. Like,
I don't feel that it's fair or fair chase that
that Elk quote unquote gets found under exposed because you
can run two little controllers from your truck and you know,
and imagine if you did do that and we're always
on elk, like, it changes the game, right because even

(26:13):
with our you know, people think we're always on Elk. Right,
I can go a day or two and just be
like riding the struggle bus of not being able to
find an elk, not hearing a bugle. Yeah, there are
real times versus like hell with this, I'm gonna go
back to my truck, get my drone all charged up.
I'm gonna have four batteries ready so I can take
four to twenty five minute flights. And by god, next
time I get out of this truck, I'm hiking straight

(26:34):
into Elk.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Right, I mean, how hard would it be just to
send that thing just open over a ridge, you know,
a thousand feet or or whatever, you know, especially in
open country, you could just shoot it over the next
ridge and oh, shoot, there's elk right there. I had
no idea elk even lived there.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, yeah, and that's I don't like that now. I'm
I'm also on board with drones for recovery, especially the
use of thermal drones at the point where that deer
is wounded, wounded or dead dead for sure, I was.
I was questioning my stance on wounded because there is
some escapement on marginal shots that like, maybe that deer

(27:09):
will leaven live and be just fine. Maybe it's bettered down,
Maybe we shouldn't let people know where it's at. But
if I had to just make a decision and wounded
had to be in there, because you don't know whether
it's dead or wounded or you made a good shot,
I would air towards thermal recovery or drone recovery if if,
if you have the access to it, because I just

(27:30):
I'm not for one like to let the animal's life
go to waste. You know, if you did make a shot,
you do have blood by all means, you know, get
the drone up, see if you can find it, and
if it's maybe then the rule is, I don't know
how you police that either, you know, wounded, you can't
go after it dead, you can go recover it, but
going to go yeah, people are good. I guess if

(27:51):
it's sitting up versus laying on its side, would be
the only way.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Right, Well, maybe you have to like, Okay, I have
to come back in three hours and check it in and.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Check on it. I can check it in the daylight
maybe or whatever it might be daylight, you know, and
then have to sneak up on and give another shot.
But I'm all for that. I would love to see,
you know, critters, you know, be recovered end up on
somebody's table versus turn into coyote bait or you know,
die a miserable death over the next week, two weeks, month,

(28:20):
whatever it may take.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Right right, No, I agree. Now, I will say some
naysayers would be like, yeah, but now with you saying
that I can take those marginal shots, all I have
is a butt shot. It's okay, I'm gonna shoot that
thing square in the butt and then I'm gonna use
my drone and find it and then I'll get it later.

(28:41):
People will say that, but I think those same people
that would do that are the same people that are
gonna shoot too far. They're gonna be the You know,
you can't. It's really hard to change the heart someone's
heart and change their personal ethics unless back back to
the point of we have to teach our sons and
daughters better and then that that's where change starts. But

(29:06):
I mean, there's there's there's the people have bad hearts
in every situation, whether you're talking about mugging somebody or
whatever it is. You know, there's people have a bad heart.
So you know, you can't let it change the law
that much.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
I think, yep. Yeah, And you know, and some of
these seem easy to talk about. You're like, I'm not
a lighted knock guy, but I know, like you're a
big proponent of lighted knocks, And that isn't one of
my topics because I feel like that one's well past
the point of controversy. It just it just lets you
know whether or not you It lets you see your
arrow right right, and no happened, versus you just dug

(29:45):
it into the ground and can't find the thing and
you need to go start blood trailing, or maybe there
isn't blood but you got blood on your arrow. Some
of these things, like drone recovery seems to be clean cut.
We should allow it just like that. But there's always there.
I think there's all going to be a group that
just wants it to be as like traditional and primitive
as possible.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Oh yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
They don't want a drone, you know, flying over deer
country even you know, maybe we should allow it on
private not I don't know. I don't know what you
do there. But my point is like I feel like
thermal recovery should be an easy one to allow, But
I can also see the other side on why they
wouldn't want, you know, drones and technology involved in hunting
at all.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, and I almost feel like maybe they make rulings
like excuse me, on the drones, almost like flying flying
an airplane and then hunting. You know, you have a
tont you can't hunt again for twenty four hours, yep,
you know once you try, and then the drones are
going to log all that in right there. They they

(30:45):
log your sessions. They know when you fly. So let's
say you fly it, well, you can't hunt for twenty
four hours. I mean with that that would be totally admissible. Yeah, Unfortunately,
like for recovery, loose some heat, you would lose you know,
you may not you may lose your animal. It may
may go bad on you.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
So yeah, okau. This next one's kind of a combo
AI and kind of that AI powered scouting and we're
going to tie that into cell trail cams to kind
of tackle this all at once. So so there's apps
and AI models. You know, when we go to when
we go to Kansas, some of those guys run an
app like Drewy's Whitetail app. I think Onyx has like

(31:28):
conditions and and you know people have time, moon phase
and whatever it may be. But like apps that tell
you when dear movement should be best. All of these
things based on all of these environmental factors coupled with
some of these things. And I don't claim to know
all of multi mobiles, Like I just use their cameras,

(31:48):
love I love their cameras. But like there's there starts
to be like patterning, you know, whether all you're getting daylight, nighttime,
you know, if they're on these what's your opinion on that?
Like AI generated planning and then sell cams and we'll
kind of it might be a complex one, but we'll
kind of chunk it up and go through that.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Well, I think you can, like, let's say your white
tail on and I think you can log in and
get like any kind of information you want as far
as like, oh, this is the best time, this is
the best day, or this is the best two days
to hunt. You should do this, you should do that.
I've never seen that be consistently accurate with any of
that kind of stuff, So I don't know, I mean,

(32:32):
until they get the kinks worked out, I guess I'm
not really against it.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, And I think just looking at it, trying to,
you know, kind of peek over somebodys shoulder, like how
does this app work? I think the biggest driving factor
is just weather. And I think most white tail hunter
know you get that big you know, weather push like,
oh now it says it's gonna be great deer hunting
for three days. Well, yeah, it's because you've got a
big cold front moving in.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, weather change, the barometric pressure changed. I mean, all
the signs that Grandpa used, they're the same stuff. It's
just maybe maybe delivered in a different manner.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
But let's roll to the next level, like you've got
a camera set up it I think the you know,
you're getting to the point where they've identified certain deer
and it's starting to tell you like, yeah, I think you.
I don't know how it works exactly. I wish I
was more versed on this, but basically like, oh, if
you want to hunt George, George would be best hunted
at this time because this is this is a showing

(33:24):
patterns like are you okay with that? Or is that
something somebody come up on their own? Should they have
to figure that out on their own? Or should they
just be hunting whenever they can and it might just
happen to be during that time.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Well, I guess if you're looking at your pictures, you
would know I already know what the best time, Like
you would see like okay, he's daylighted now at this time,
you know it's time stamped on your on your on
your images. I I guess. I mean if you if
you were running seventy five cameras and you were you know,

(33:54):
you didn't have time to go through all that data,
which I'm sure a lot of people do run a
lot of cameras and might be hard to manage all
that Sure right, I mean, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well, and for instance, the cell phone cameras, that's kind
of a hot hot topic whether you should be able
to use them or not.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, and cell phone cameras or cell trail cameras are
going to roll into that. I think we're going to
get a big technology push and AI here in the
next three years where they can identify specific deer by
horn configuration, their time. And then what we're just looking
at is maybe when we look at a trail cam picture,
we don't know whether bariometric pressure. It's going to add
all that in and start to create this recipe to

(34:35):
kill that deer.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, especially if you have a network of cameras that
it would be too hard to manage, you know, just
you know, just checking them all. If you had like
let's say, twenty cameras, thirty cameras whatever, on every trail,
on every point pinch point, on every food source, and
then collaboratively your AI generated Okay, if you want to

(34:58):
shoot this deer, be at this pinch point at x
y Z time on XYZ you know, I feel like, yeah,
that could probably that it'll probably work.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Having a tracking collor on the thing. If he shows
up on multiple cameras too, you know. And then one
thing I talked with a guy that hunts blacktails around
here is like he does it on his own, but
he always looks at like when a deer, what direction
a deer approaches from? And then if he's not getting
there early enough, So if it's a nighttime picture, he
will go in that direction and set out like he'll
scatter three more cameras and like, but if the AI

(35:31):
tells you, like go put a camera four hundred and
seventy yards in this direct, you know, like it starts
to take all of that out, you know, versus just
being a skilled hunter and trying to like reduce it
down to like how the hell do I kill this
deer in daylight or elk or whatever. Yeah, people can
do it on their own, but like just using the
technology sometimes I hate it, Like I want the guy

(35:52):
if you're out there smashing one hundred and eighty ins
whitetail bucks every time, like I would love to be like, yeah,
Dirk Man, he gets into Excel, he's got all this plotted,
like he's got his own system, Like I don't know,
I like that story better versus like, yeah, this technology
told them to be at pinch point you know X,
you know X at such and such time, and right.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
I feel like I don't like the don't I don't
like the theory of it. Let's say, you know, the
theory of that working like we've just described, that's an
unfair advantage. I don't like it. And I typically I
typically don't like the poo poo on things unless I've
had some experience with it. You know, for instance, you know,

(36:35):
some states outlawed trail cams of any kind during hunting season,
and you know, because wildlife managers like, oh, you'll just
an unfair ad mantager. But have you even ran trail cameras,
Like they tried this in Idaho? They wanted out LOHM
in Idaho. Now I was like, well, the cell phone ones,
I'd probably be fine because that's more real time. You're
getting messages, Hey there's a deer or elk over here,

(36:57):
blah blah blah. But they're just just standard when where
you have to walk in, you have to commit the
time you got to walk in and check that camera
and be like okay, well by then. A lot of
times that from my experience because I run a lot
of trail cameras. By that time it's old data. It
may be a week week gone by, And especially for
like elk Rut, right, they may be there for two
or three days and then they're gone. You don't see

(37:19):
them again until next September. So I don't I feel
like I hate to like poo poo on something I
don't have any real experience with. But I don't like
the concept what we're talking about this AI and I
think that'll be one of those things until they it
gets clicked and it's refined and it's working good, don't
I don't think we know it might sound good on paper,

(37:42):
but the guy go sits his tree stand, he's like, yeah,
this is stupid, this doesn't work at all. Who cares
then at that point? But if it is working, if
it does work like they say it would work, I
wouldn't be a good I wouldn't be for it now.
I mean. And also maybe if it was public land
versus private land, you know, of a land, people maybe
have the advantages say hey, what's my property? Should all

(38:04):
do whatever I want with it? In America? Right? And
I do kind of feel for those folks too. It's
like you know it is private, you know, but overall
I don't like it.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah, yeah, okay, this is my This was my first year.
Everyone in cell cams. Everything else was like all right,
you know, boot leather butt, grease, you know, I gotta
go check my check my camera. And it was really
just to see what elk we're in the area or
deer we're in the area before and so I'm not
gonna lie like cell cams were nice. It was in
an area I didn't want to hike too. Every time
I happen to have some cell service there. But one thing,

(38:37):
I'm gonna kick this one off. One thing I wasn't
expecting was almost additional anxiety of nothing's there for a week,
what's going on right, you know? Versus I'm sure if
I was there, like I would just spot the elk
up bedding on a slightly different slivery timber for that week,
and then they'd chow back up right like, oh this
is a bad spot during huntings. You know, it is

(38:59):
legal in Washington to have them up during season. Like
they had me doing the wrong thing. More so than
just letting my eyes tell me what to do, right,
we would make a play based on what was in
such and such basin, and then you'd go over there
and like, ah, this isn't what we thought it was there.
You know, they're they're back, but the right bowl isn't there.
We should have stayed there. What's what's your opinion on

(39:21):
cell cams and the states that allow it, where you
can make instantaneous decisions on where you need to be
and what's probably within quarter mile half mile of that location.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
So I have have a little experience with cell cameras.
For instance, our buddy Randy, he runs a pretty good
network of cell cameras in Kansas. Let's talk about turkey season.
He's like, hey, you boys need to go down to
the the four hundred there and there's those turkeys in
that one spot. You'll go down there and you'll kill them,
all right, Well, because he's been seeing them on camera, Like,

(39:54):
and I don't know how many times we've gone down
there set up call, we're not even seen a turkey.
It's like it's almost like you're kind of chasing, like
chasing your tail, like you go from this one to
that one, of this one of that one. It's not
always it's not always a slam dunk. I guess what
I'm saying. You still got to hunt them up right,
And it's back to your point. Like you know, I

(40:17):
sometimes feel like you make some bad decisions just because like, Okay,
they should be here, but they were there, but where
did they go? Well, it doesn't mean they're just hanging
around that camera. You know, they could be two miles
away in a complete different drainage. If you're talking about elk.
This last fall, I had to sell camera out like
the first time in history, well for a lot in

(40:39):
my adult life, I've hunted where you would be able
to get cell phone service. And I had a camera
out and the elk. You know, all September there'd been
bowls and cows in there. But I wasn't hunting that
unit at all. I'm just kind of I was more
scouting it. But I did have a rifle tag for
that unit. But I go up to the trailhead to
a completely different area where I had thought like, all right,

(41:01):
we're gonna go back in here and and and you know,
it's not the kind of the front country. It's kind
of the back country, and we're gonna go hiking, We're
gonna stay all night and hunt. Well, we get there,
there's seven pickups and lots of dirt bike tracks and
people's bootprints, and there's it looked like there was a
lot of people going to the into the spot that
I intended to go. I'm like, we gotta go waiting.

(41:23):
I don't want to hunt here. I don't want to
compete with these guys, these other guys for this hunt.
So we go back out. So we drive, you know,
an hour back into service and and I check my
trail cam and oh, holy cow, this big six point
that I've been seeing in September that kind of disappeared.

(41:43):
He's back and he'd been all he had been nocturnal
all September. He's back hunting. He's on he's daylighted. Look
at him like, wow, I know we're hunting tomorrow. We're
gonna go hunting up there. So we get up there.
There's people everywhere hunting, but we I do hear in
bugle and it's over in the area by the cell
cell cam. So we go over there hone him up.

(42:05):
Of course, you know, as great of an elk kinter,
I like to consider myself ha ha, oh guess what
the elk give us? The slip? Right? You know, and
bugling during rifle season. I would just worry that there
was enough people around that that thing bugling his head
off was gonna, you know, drag in another person. So
I got too aggressive and blew him out of there.

(42:28):
And guess what, my cell camra my cell camera said,
these elk are long gone. They're not here anymore. So
we stopped hunting that spot and went on to another one.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
Yeah, so I mean, maybe debate you a little bit here,
but not so my we we we've talked about this,
like knowing the animals there doesn't necessarily get it dead,
but then we can maybe make that argument, and you
might you might agree, you might tell me I'm I'm
an idiot, but I would make the argument like, but
if you didn't have the cell camera there, would you

(42:59):
even went to spot? You know? And so that's the
other thing.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
That's a good argument.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
It's it's fifty percent, but it's not one hundred percent.
So it does expose that elk or put pressure on
them at that time, versus like if you would have
had to walk in there or you're like, you know,
we've all been there, like, oh, this camera's been dead cold,
Like I'll just get it at the end of season
versus like, no, I actually had to walk in there,
put some scent on the ground. You know, potentially, you know,

(43:22):
risk blowing the spot out for a day or two
to check that SD card and then get back out,
Like is there a difference? And then some people may
may argue like, well, you shouldn't even have the SD
card camera up, like no cameras just ton of them
where they're at.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Right right, which, yeah, and I can I can see
that point. Definitely. Would I have gone to that spot
or what have I? You know, I have you know,
just like everybody, I got ABC d EFG spots that
I'm gonna go for opening morning. Yeah, that that did
steer me to that spot. Now also you know past

(43:56):
data showing that I did. I did know that there
was ELK equitting the area ll September. I probably would
have went in there now. One thing though, it's kind
of that front country, easy accessible, a lot of people around.
I was almost even with that one debate with that
one daylight. I was debating its like I don't know
if I want to go in there because I don't

(44:17):
want to compete for ELK with other people. I just
don't like I just want to go find my own spot,
but I did, so I feel like, yeah, it does
give you an unfair advantage, like you know, you still
have to hunt them up, but it puts you in
the right area at the right time. And so I
feel like if they said in Idaho they said next
year you can't use cell phone trail cameras, it wouldn't

(44:40):
hurt my feelings. I mean, well it would just a
little bit because it's still fun. Because man, there's nothing
better than checking trail cameras and like being like Christmas, well,
it's like Christmas every day when you got one of
them things. Every morning, I'd wake up the first thing
I had to open up. I open up my multie
app and I'm looking. I'm like, oh, oh, yeah, there's

(45:00):
elk oh look at that little deer. Oh there's a weasel.
Like you know, it's like Christmas. Every day. I'm still
getting messages, you know, I left them up there at
this one or there's a rabbit that's been going by
this one. The other one's completely snowed in.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yeah, so yeah, oh mine are buried in snow now.
But I I was the same way, like I loved
it and then it gave me anxiety more than I thought,
because if I just didn't know what was up there,
i'd be doing better at times. And then you're like, oh,
that bowl's not quite big enough yet, like we'll leave
it alone, like a bigger one will show up eventually,
you know, more into September. And so, yeah, it let
you kind of. I loved everything about it. But then

(45:32):
if you really just take back and like it does
give you more information and having to put some boot leather,
you know, similar to plying a drone up. Besides, you're
locked to one location on a tree, I guess right,
but you are technically scouting over and over and over
without having to climb back into a spot. So I
like them. I don't think I'm in a position to
say like I would be like an advocate for outlawing them.

(45:54):
I don't think I would like you. I would be
necessarily upset if they went away, But I do. I
do love using them for now, and I honestly felt
like at least how I worked, they didn't give me
like a huge advantage. And I'm stoked to keep running
those those cell cameras as long as I can here
in Washington.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Okay, we're gonna go to our final two. We're kind
I don't want to say we run out of time,
but we got two big ones left. We'll save the
biggest one for last. But this next one, we're gonna
switch to bow hunting, which is considered by most to
be more of a primitive weapon. But then you start
to see technology show up on that. We're talking like
the new smart bow sites. You know, the Garment zero.

(46:43):
I think we got the Burists Oracle for that. That's
the one that they put on like the crossbows and stuff.
But you got these range finding sites that will instantaneously
give you a range. And I don't even know. Does
you know if the the the pin actually moves on
that like holographic type.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
I think it does. And there again, like I said,
I have I've never I've never even held a held
one in my hand that wasn't on a bow. I've
never even looked at one, honestly.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Yeah, yeah, but I do know they're they're expensive, eight
and nine hundred bucks and they let you know right now,
I mean everybody knows in order to get a range,
you pre range everything trees, and then you got to
try to remember the seven trees you range and try
to build. I build like little semi circles out in
front of me, Like these trees all connect for thirty
these trees connect for forty yep, build mountain. Try to

(47:36):
remember it and hope he doesn't walk somewhere else. And
if he does, then I've got to, like sneakily, like
get to my range finder, lift it up, get a
new range on the elk, put it back down, draw
my bow and do all of that. Where now the
only thing you got to focus on is drawing your
bow and getting a range right on that elk in
clear view. I don't like that. Is like I'm more

(48:00):
opposed to smart bo sites. I like the idea of
it being more primitive, if we're getting the best seasons.
Once again, I like the idea that not every elk
I call in I'm gonna get to kill because of
brush or because of range, or because he doesn't go
into the the perfect spot I had planned for him.
What's your opinion on on you know, these smart bo

(48:21):
sites and UH and their use in in archery.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, Like I said, I've never used one, but the
concept if it were, if it's just like anything you know,
any kind of gadget seems like does it work like
they say at work or was intended to work? Now,
if that thing is works flawless, it's like worked really
really good. Yeah, I just I'm not I'm I'm against it.

(48:45):
I don't. I don't like it. I don't. I think
I think you still have to you know, fixed sites
are good. I don't think you should be able to
use that, but you know, who knows. I know I
know people who have had those and like, yeah that
things sucked. Don't like it, but who knows they might
have got better. I don't know, but I I personally

(49:06):
have no no qualms about I don't want to use them.
I don't want to see I don't want to see
those in the marketplace. Yeah, in Idaho, you know, we
you know, they try to keep things as primitive as
they can. You can't have any kind of battery anything
on your boat. So if you want to film yourself
shooting your bow hunting, well you're hunting, you know, put
a goprol on your camera or on your on your bow.

(49:26):
You can't do it, which to me is stupid. But
their opinion is, well, if we allow that, then it
allows other things to creep in, which I don't agree
with that concept or mentality. I mean, you guys make
the laws right, just say a camera is fine as
long as it you know. But no rangefinders know this,
no that I mean, just define it. But they kind

(49:47):
of just like to take the easy route sometimes.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Yeah, yeah, no, I that's kind of where I'm at
on on smart bo sites like it is. We're the
same in Washington, like no electronics, so you can't run
attacked camra o pro or any any like you know.
Back I think it was even seven eight years ago,
somebody was trying to like mount the range finder on
your stabilizer. You click a little button on your riser
and it would report on a little screen. And I'm like,

(50:11):
I just I mean, it's cool, but I don't like it.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
It's just more crap. I mean, it's it's a it's
a gimmick, it's a gadget.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yeah yeah, I I want there to be some skill
in that moment of truth as an archer, like you
either know the range, you don't know the range, and
you don't take the shot. You take the risk of
reaching for your range finder and getting a new range.
Like all that's part of the game. And I think
when you if you can take that out it it

(50:40):
changes the chance for escapement on the rules that were
put in place for that season for that opportunity. I
don't like the hunter having that much advantage.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
I guess, yeah, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Then we're we're gonna let the elephant in the room
speak and yeah, well we'll just talk about it. Long
range hunting and the technology changes over the last fifteen
years on long range hunting? Can you police it? Can
you not police It's it got to be self policed.

(51:14):
It would almost be impossible to police. But like, how
do you deal with long range hunting or do you
just let it run its course and start to shorten
seasons and limit opportunity. And I don't even have my data,
but I'm just got to speculate, like as a as
just common sense, and maybe somebody's gonna correct me. I
hope you do if I'm wrong. But I've got to

(51:36):
imagine that more animals die because of the increased accuracy
and performance of rifles than they did before when we had,
you know, a seven mag with a three by nine,
no ability to move radical like that's what you had.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Right I kind of look at it like this, we
haven't seen, at least in Idaho. I don't have the
numbers in front of me, but we haven't seen some
giant leap in success rates since people have been able
to shoot a thousand yards, you know, for the last
twenty years, people have been able to shoot long range

(52:12):
and beyond that. But they'll be able to shoot long
range here in Idaho. But we haven't seen a dramatic
uptick in some success rates in any of the units.
I don't think so. To me, like some hunters, and
I don't want to sound like a condescending jerk. Like

(52:33):
some hunters, you could almost like do just about anything
to give them an advantage, and they're still not going
to get it done. They're not going to get an elk.
You know. It's you know, they say, you know, uh,
ten percent of the hunters are killing ninety percent of
the elk, and the success rates they hover depending on
the units. Some units are ten percent, some are more
than that, depend on the weapon, depend on the units.

(52:55):
Some of the units, you know, they're really good, you know,
trophy class management units. You know, success rates are high,
but there's also you know, uh, you know, less hunters
in the in the average, and then there's more animals
than average, so your your success rates go up. So
I'm not one hundred percent against it, I think I

(53:17):
think the biggest disparency or the biggest line that gets
drawn here is the people who can't shoot long range
and have no desire to shoot lang range. They'd like
they like to hunt traditional with a three three by
nights go. That's why they hunt. If they if they

(53:38):
want to, they want to get closer. If they can't
shoot from where they're at, they just want to get closer.
And that's that's how they like to hunt. And they
think it's not good if somebody can shoot along a
longer shot. The long range aspect. Back what I said
earlier in the beginning of the podcast. It does open
up opportunity for people to shoot, you know, past their

(54:02):
effective range, But so does shooting the old three by
nine scope without moveable turrets. Like I grew up in
an era, everybody had a three by nine scope or
a four power scope or whatever. And when you've seen
a buck or at a bowl at a long range,
we didn't have rangefinders, we didn't have movable turrets, and
people just held over and most people didn't hit anything

(54:26):
unless they had one on a big open hill side
and they emptied two boxes of shells on it and
they shot it and the ass or and then finally
they would go over there and finish it off. So
I mean back to like, you can't change the hearts
of people, right, So people there were bad apples doing
bad stuff before we could have the capability to shoot
in long range. And now we still have some of

(54:49):
those same people around. But I feel like a lot
of the guys who were like doing it right and
are successful at it and doing it they do it right.
They're not like, you know, we know some of the
best shooters, you know, long range shooters in the world,
and those guys would be like, they can shoot a
thousand yards, no problem, they can shoot fifteen hundred yards
no problem. But they'll say when I'm hunting, I really

(55:10):
like to reel that back and I don't really feel
like I should be shooting far on an animal, and
they usually won't. They they don't. So I don't know,
and I don't know how you would police it.

Speaker 1 (55:21):
Would you couldn't?

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Would you outlaw range finders? Well, if you outlawed range finders.
Then people with radicals and a first focal plane scope
would be able to measure well even the second focal
plane scope, you would be able to measure distance by
counting the the tics on your on your on your radical,
like there's a there's a way around every everything, unless

(55:43):
you just outlawd moveable turret scopes, and then somebody would
then we're back to holding over seven feet with your duplex.
So I don't know what the right answer it is.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Yeah, I struggle with it because I've got custom built
guns and I haven't shot an animal over a thousand
yards yet, but I shoot regularly over one thousand yards
with you know, on paper and make sure I've got
all my my dope charts and drop charts and everything
figured out and wind drifts. But yeah, I try, you know,
similar to those others. I try to reel in as
much as possible. It's still on a hunt. And one

(56:17):
thing that like I try to check off of my
brain is like, did I challenge that animal? Did I
you know his senses? Did he you know, did I
sneak into three hundred yards? Well, then he had a
chance to see me, or smell me, or do some
of these things, and you some people will say, well,
like the whole point is not to challenge any of
their senses right and climb up over the ridge. And
I'm like, yeah, but you know what I mean, Like
if I got within three hundred yards, like I feel

(56:37):
better about that versus if I shot him from nine
hundred and he didn't know I existed, you know, or
had no no reason to be concerned. But yeah, I've
always taken things to extremes, like where do you draw
the line? Like let's say some new weapon and it's
not outlied by any game commission, Like your gun shoots
a laser or something, right, and you can shoot something
at four thousand yards and you're like, well, does the

(57:00):
guy have the skill? Are we gonna let that happen?
Like is it a choice? Like is is it a
range thing? Is it effectiveness thing? Like how do we
where do we police it? Because let's just say, for instance,
I'm just gonna talk through this, it won't ever happen
because of the math and the physics involved. But you
know there's these like extra long range matches right where
people are making hits at four thousand yards or something. Yeah,

(57:23):
you know, two and a half miles.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
And the king of two mile.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
Yeah, what if that becomes common technology or there's an
app that like, oh, yeah, these guys have figured this
all out. There's a lot of environmental factors, but like
we got it dialed, like you know, let's say and
I'm I'm this is me and my imagination, but like,
all right, we build the AI in the on X
in the wind and weather, and like they know that

(57:48):
we're shooting over these ridges from this elevation to that elevation.
This is what the wind's doing in all those draws. Like, oh,
we'll come up with a solution for you. Just your
scope's going to move right to this. Like do we
let everybody take a shot at a four thousand the
yard animal and kill it? Like I don't know if
we ever get there, I don't know, but it's like
at some point there's gotta be some self policing. And
I don't know if it's a yardage thing, if it's

(58:09):
a season length thing, how will that work. So I
love long range hunting for the fact that it really
sharpens your skills and it makes my three hundred you know,
my typical three hundred yard hunting shots very easy. With
the equipment that I have that's built for a thousand
plus yards. But I don't know, it's a tough one
to tackle. I don't got the right answers. I don't know.

(58:34):
I like it, but I wish it was like could
be policed or managed somehow.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, I was just thinking about what you were saying
about that, you know, the AI figured out atmosphere conditions
between you and the target. Man, I would have to
think there's some smart person out there already working on this,
like be able to project a beam or project something
between you and the target and somehow of measurable feedback

(59:01):
of atmospherics between you and there, and then have the
AI calculate all that. I mean, maybe somebody already the government,
the government probably already has Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
I'm sure Brian Lets is working on it for the government. Yeah,
that's why when that's why our buddy John, Brian probably
has that in that new applied ballistics app. And that's
why John couldn't figured it out the other day. It's like,
all right, you you've you've got all this extra stuff.
He's parameter. But yeah, I mean there's there are geniuses
out there, like you know those guys, And I'm sure
at some point or maybe we just gave them their

(59:30):
next idea is like, yeah, if you had like a
rangefinder that could report back environmental conditions at one hundred
yards two hundred yards to hundred yards and you could
get like a whatever, it would be like a mean difference,
you know, and like, well, this is what you really
need to dial for even though you're shooting two thousand
yards across these canyons, like I can't. I would not
be surprised if we got a Facebook announcement tomorrow that says,

(59:54):
look what's now developed right right? You know, It's just
it's not beyond you know, beyond that level of technology
right now. I don't believe.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
But one thing, you know, people have to consider too,
and I think a lot of people do. But shooting
long range is actually what you I mean, hitting the
animal is one thing, but then recovering it. Let's say
you're by yourself, you don't have a spotter, or maybe
you do have a spotter. For instance, I kind of
talked about earlier in the thing about the thermal and

(01:00:25):
we spotted a shooter, but we did is too far
to shoot? Well, it wasn't that we couldn't hit it
at that far it was like seven hundred yards. But
this buck, it was late in the evening. You shoot it,
it goes down. We got to drop eight hundred vertical feet,
climb six hundred vertical feet and try to find that

(01:00:45):
thing in the dark. That's just irresponsible and unethical. Like, no,
that's stupid, Like we could we have found it. I'd
like to say maybe probably, but I'm not going to
gamble on that. I respect the animal too much. All
I feel like there again, you know, long range shooting,
you have to be able to recover it too without

(01:01:07):
just losing animals.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Yeah, I I feel like you were taking a job
at me. Direk on that mountain view Elk count there
with some of those last comments, because we shot it
and then had to leave it overnight, but we had
specific environmental things working for us. But yeah, that is
it was a concern. You know. We we thought about
it and where it died, and we're like, well, you know,
we had to make the decision for the safety of
all of us in the rocky country and where it

(01:01:31):
was at. We had to come back. But thankfully we
had fifteen degrees at night and the elk landed on
its belly, you know. And you know we didn't waste
hardly any of that meat. You know, a little bit
around the hip sockets, but not much. But yeah, that
that is a major concern, you know, especially in the mountains.
You know, being able to shoot long range is great,
but recovery and recovery in a time where you don't

(01:01:52):
waste any meat is also a big concern.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
But I will give a plug to one of our partners,
Loopole's got a great new spotter that helps in this process.
If you do shoot that thing, go ahead and range,
find it and mark it on your on X and
then just walk over to that point.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Bama.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Hey, there you go. That's a that's as as sponsorshippy
as I'm gonna get or a plug in a product.
But no, it is that it is a game changer.
Like I didn't think I would necessarily use that as
much as I have, but man, it makes it awesome.
And if your friends don't know you have that technology,
it makes you look like a freaking genius.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
How you you're that good?

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Yeah? Hey, I looked at the point of the ridge
and I knew where this tree was and that, and
use it on my muzzle at or Bowl Recovery, used
it on a few ques deer last year when we
were testing it, and makes you look way smarter than
you really are. Yeah, No, I appreciate you having you on,
you know, and just walking through these Some of these
things are tough and there's no right or wrong answers.

(01:02:51):
I think, you know, we we use some of this technology,
we we grow with it, and sometimes I'm a hypocrite
because it's like, well, I'm gonna use it until it's illegal,
even though I don't necessarily agree with it. But yeah,
everybody's got to make their own decision on what's too much,
how much is too much, and then you know, make
their decisions on that. But yeah, I appreciate having you on,

(01:03:13):
and I do want to let everybody know don't forget
the sportsman shows we've got going on. We will this.
This is airing on the thirteenth, I think is a Thursday,
Is that correct? Yeah, which both shows will be active.
Will be at Western Hunt in Salt Lake City, Utah,
and then we'll also be at the Pacific Northwest Sportsman
Show in Portland, Oregon. So if you're in the area, board.

(01:03:36):
Head on out, you can take a look for the
first time at some of our new products. We will
have the new carbon fiber Beagle tube. At these shows.
We will have a select amount for sale other carbon
fiber tubes, fifty of them each show. Nice. We've got
our new Kivian tube, which is collapsible, smaller than an
algaene bottle, extends out into a full sized tube. Sound

(01:04:02):
amazing in my opinion, amazing sound and good back pressure.
We've got a new product, the Easy One, that will
accompany kind of be the the Little Brother, little Sister,
whatever you want to call it to the Easy Sucker.
And then we will have some new trial packs of
some new diaphragm frames that we have at all these shows.

(01:04:22):
So a big year for Phelps on our ELK category.
I don't want to say we've stayed away from it,
but I would say this has like been the big
you know since twenty sixteen we brought the unleashed to
the ANT frames, Like this is probably our biggest This
is probably our biggest you know year category expansion for ELK.
I would say, so pretty stoked to see see what

(01:04:43):
everybody thinks on those. And yeah, head out the show,
pick yourself up a new tube or you know, at
least just talk to us, and yeah, we'd appreciate seeing you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
And if you see Jason Phelps please he'll be at
the Portland show. Please ask him, Hey, are you gonna
address I call Cocain again and go all hunting? Give
the people what they want, Jason. I mean, you really
need to make it. But if we got enough people
going up and asking for him to hunt in a
call Cogain outfit again, we might get to see it again.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Oh we might not get to see it again. No,
if I get here, I'll say, if I get fourteen
thousand people tell me I should hunt in a in
a whole Cocain outfit, I'll do it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
So you know the email to send it into what
is it?

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
But let's not let's not get an overwhelming there with emails. Yeah,
we'll see, we gotta we'll have to see see how
much Oak Coming I get to do this year. We've
got some pretty big plans in the cooker that I
might have to say for a future episode.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
So all right, appreciate it, Dirk, take care and we'll
catch up with you later.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Yeat