March 20, 2025 • 55 mins
Ever wonder what it's like having a "Shed Antler" dog? Dirk and Idaho hunting guide and outfitter Chris Cabral talk about Chris' labs and what it's like shed hunting with a dog. They also take a deep dive into bear baiting, and talk hunting mountain lions and elk in Idaho's rugged back country.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance podcast.
I'm Dirk Durham and this week's guest is a family man,
an outfitter and guide and all around outdoorsman. Welcome to
the show. Chris Cabralhi's a villain, Dirk Good, Did I
say your last name right?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yep? Cabral that's correct?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Perfect? Perfect. So how's winter treated you so far? At
your Instagram shows, You've been pretty busy.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
It's pretty slow early December just because of lack of
snow cat hunting. But after that, once about Christmas hit,
we had a really good season, ended up killing seven real.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Nice cat Holy cal that's awesome. How many cat clients
do you typically take out every week?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I try to take between eight and ten usually.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Okay, yeah, Now do you guys are you guys camping
at your remote base camp out there? Are you?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Like? No, We run all of our cat hunts out
of Avery, Idaho, that little town, and we can start
hunting just nine miles out of town, so we actually
stay in an apartment or a house that we ran
every winter, and we got Wi Fi and running water
and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Okay, Okay, on off snowmobiles or do you guys using
side by sides or tracks or anything.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
No, we use We use snowmobiles and trucks for all
our cat hunts. Side by sides of tracks are just
too slow. We need to cover up as much ground
as we can.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah. Yeah, I've heard guys talk about the side by
sides with tracks. They're cool, but man, they use a
lot of fuel and they're just not very fast.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah. It's a maintenance thing on the bearings and fuel
is just incredibly you know, they're just not economical at all.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah. Do you guys get any any really big cats
this year?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah? About the biggest one was probably one ninety five
Cole Tom.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's a giant.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a good one.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Do you think do you think taking that many cats
out of the picture is really helping the elk and
dear herds up there?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I mean, I think so definitely. You can see the
kills drop down from the end of the beginning of
the season to the end. By the end, there's no
next to no cat kills, you know. And we've been
hut in the same area for twenty five years, so
we've definitely saved a lot of you know, deer and
milk for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, that's nice. And then after cat season you got
trade shows. How many of those do you typically do?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Man with social media and the website now, we've downsized
so much. We only do the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania show anymore,
and we do. We've done that show for thirty eight
years and we do really well there.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Holy cow, Yeah that's a long time. That's a long
show too. Is it like ten days?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah? Nine nine days yep?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh wow, Yeah, those those are kind of marathon days.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah. I wish they would shut it down to like
maybe the first weekend to Wednesday, But I don't know.
We do really well at.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
It, yeah, perfect. You get a lot of return clients
or picking up new guys all the time.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
We get new guys, but our biggest thing is eighty
to ninety percent repeat clientele. So some of them guys
haven't hunted with us in twenty years. They bear hunted
twenty years ago, and then they'll come back on a
cat hunt now, you know, or elk hunt, you know
whatever it be.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Sure sure are you guys running bears with dogs? Are
you guys strictly bear baiting?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I do mostly bear baiting. I run it with dogs.
I run them with dogs for my repeat clients and
guys that are in shape that know they can make
it to the tree. The hard part is our areas
are so remote. Not everybody can make it to a
bear tree. Bears run so much further than cats do
in our country.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, I notice that going out with Bradley here on
bear hunts. I never really realize how much much ground
American cover on it when they're pursued by dogs.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, most people have no clue how far they can
run there, Like a cat can run less than a bear.
Cats are really short winded. A barrel run for twelve
hours straight.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, it's incredible. And then some of that country, like
you say, it's very remote and if this kind of
if you get into that roadless stuff, then you kind
of you're risking like maybe not getting your dogs till
the next day or something.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, And I mean, honestly, there's enough roadless stuff where
you can get your dog. Never get your dogs back, honestly,
the GPS callers die and then you're in a predicament.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Oh yeah, do you when you are running dogs for
cats and bears, do you kind of pregame it a
little bit checking for wolf sign to see if there's
any wolves in the area.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Always. I'm probably one of the luckier guys in Idaho
when it comes to hounds and wolves because I run
all my roads seven days a week and I don't
mess around if there's wolves in the area, I just
won't turn loose on a cat track.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah. Yeah, for the listeners.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Oh go ahead. I was just gonna say a lot
of my good friends I've had dogs hurt by wolves,
but I knock on woods still to this day. I've
been very lucky.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
That's good. Yeah for our listeners that don't know. You know,
if if wolves here baying hound dogs, then that's like
a big attractment and they'll go and they'll go fight them,
kill them. Is it kind of a territorial thing.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It's territorial things, same thing they do to coyotes. They
just don't want any other canine in their areas.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, that's crazy. I've seen a lot of really really
sad posts where folks have had their dogs chewed up
or killed and eaten, and it's devastating. Say you have,
you know, you spent years building your your dog pack
up and you know, lots of training you know, hour,
thousands of hours of training to have them, you know,
(05:54):
eaten by a wolf. That's that's pretty harsh. It's pretty rough. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, they're pretty much family when you raise from pups.
And we're just like Brad, we raise all our own
dogs from pups, you know, most of our own bloodlines.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah. So with all your all your irons in the fire.
So your you're working, you're guiding, you're hunting. You like
to hunt yourself, Yeah, yeah, you shed you shed hunt.
I see you are always doing some honey dues, home
improvements and and and then hanging out with your little buddy,
your son. And how do you how do you balance
(06:29):
your work with your play and then your family time.
How do you make balance that all out? Man?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
It's definitely tough. I know when I was young, my
dad was gone all the time in the woods, and
I said to myself that I didn't want to be
that way. I didn't want to miss every little league
game and every basketball game. So I think a lot
of it's having the right employees, hiring the right people
so you don't have to micromanage all the time, and babysit.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I do love taking my three year old shed hunting.
He loves every day, he says, go horn hunting today.
Every day he wakes up, that's all he wants to
do is shed hunts.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So yeah, so your your outfitting business? What's it called?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Russell Pond and b bar C Outfitters. We actually have
two different names. The Russell Pond name started thirty eight
years ago. In about nineteen eighty six. My dad bought
a bear hunting business in Maine and we just did
bear hunts, moose hunts, and whitetail hunts, and that's where
it all started. And then he wanted to stay going
full time and the only way to do that was
to move out west and have spring bear hunting also.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Okay, but nowadays got you guys, are you know branched
out to you know, kats and elk and do you
guys outfit for deer as well? Not?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
You know, mainly by choice. I just choose not to.
We let our elk hunters buy deer tags and they
can shoot them if they want to, but we don't
do strictly deer hunts just because of that reason. We're
just I loved whitetail hunting myself. I go down to Oklahoma,
Kansas the months of November, So I like to, you know,
get a little bit of time off myself.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Sure, I can relate, and I can imagine it's kind
of nice to you know that that's one kind of
thing that's kind of kept me out of guiding as
a young fellow, you know, a young buck. I was like, man,
I should get into guiding it, but then I won't
build a hunt as much, and then I just never
kind of pursued it. But did you always kind of
know that you'd wanted to be a guide or yeah,
(08:25):
part of the fire business.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, honestly, I think even in elementary school, when you know,
kids were asking what you want to be when you
grew up, or the teachers that ask you, I think
I wanted to be a hunt guid in my whole life.
I think that was just what I wanted to do.
I've been skinning bears since I was probably six seven
years old.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Man, man, So how many bear baits do you guys
typically run a year.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I'm run about seventy five now between two areas, and
I don't use them all. I always have plenty of
extra baits. A couple of years ago, I killed thirty
three off of just the less and baits. So that's
how good the baits are.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Wow. Wow. So if I were to say, you know, well,
you see, I hear this all the time, special with
dogs and wan baits, like that's the lazy man's way. Yeah,
what do you got to say about that?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
No, Northern Idaho we pack eighty pounds all day long,
every day from you know, daylight till dark. And I
do think it's a little different than Canada or main
They got a little easier than we do. Everything's work
and Idaho.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, it's funny, like that's kind of I don't. I
don't really bear bait at all, just because it's so
much work and time. It's kind of a time suck, right,
I mean, you have to like make sure you got
bait on bait on your baits, food on your baits,
and if you don't have enough time to dedicate, then
it seems like them things kind of you know, they'll
(09:50):
go they'll go dry on you, to go south on you.
So yeah, I just don't. I haven't had a lot
of time to do that. And you know, and then
collecting of bait, that's that's a lot of work too. Like,
what do you guys put on your baits?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So everything we do now we get it all out
of semi loads from Wisconsin, and we've done that for
twenty years probably, But I mean a seven semi load
with shipping and everything, it's about twelve grand. So that's
a lot of money too. I got about two hundred
and eighty barrels being delivered the first week of April,
and that two hundred and eighty barrels will only last
(10:24):
this year and this you know, this spring in this fall.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Okay, So what kind of food is in there?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Oh? I'm sorry? Yeah, cookies, cookies, and a lot of
like mixed they'll mix chocolate, popcorn, ganola, gummy bears, all
kinds of stuff. They put in a big cement mixer
and mix it together. So we get barrels of that.
So the bears we keep them fed well and they
don't get sick of the bait as much as just
using like dog food and grease.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Sure. Sure, how do you pack that? Do you guys
put it in like a big burlap sack or what
do you know?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So since I was a little kid, the way we've
always carried it's been five gallon buckets, and it's probably
not the smartest to do on your shoulders and elbows,
but that's the way we're done. We brought up, we're
brought up into it, and that's the way we still
do it now. A lot of times, if it's a
really good bait with big bears on it, I will
pack two buckets in my hand, and I'll put fifty
pounds on a frame. I'll pack for him too. So
(11:19):
but yeah, you're just trying to keep him fed the
best you can do. You.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Okay, there's a lot of guys that say you got
to keep your bears hungry or no, you put it
but as much bait on that pile as you can
and and and that'll get them. Which do you subscribe to?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
One hundred percent? Feed them as much as you possibly can.
And the more these guys with the barrels with the
little tiny holes in it, and they got to roll
it around and all they get is a little piece
of popcorn. Big bears don't want to stay there and
fool with that for very long. You're gonna get a
lot of little ones that just live there. And that's
what you're gonna see a lot of. But a big
bear will come, eat a couple bites and then they're
(12:00):
going to walk to somebody's bait that's much easier to
eat out of you. That's and that's my opinion. But
I mean we do. We kill a lot lot of
big bears by just feeding them as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah. I've seen pictures of guys who who subscribe to
the put a ton of bait out. You know, they'll
put hundreds of pounds out and big barrell come and
they'll just lay on it and just they hang out
and defend it. And those guys are always the ones
killing the really nice bears too.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, and that's one of the reasons I kind of
I kind of stay away from barrels because I think
big bears don't like to fight for food. So one thing,
like when we put our baits out, say April fifteenth,
we'll go with three guys. We'll have five hundred pounds
of bait before the first bear even hits it. So
those bears just come and live there. They they eat
on that till it's almost gone, and then you know,
(12:51):
then we're kind of trying to keep up with them
after that because obviously when their digestive plug is still in.
They don't eat nearly as much as they will a
couple weeks into the sea, So we'll have five six
hu pounds there to get them started. They'll just kind
of live there. And that's what makes them so patternable,
you know, and you know consistent.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, well, they're they're smart. They probably remember year to
year the like like, Okay, it's springtime, I'm gonna go
over there, and there's that guy that just puts out
yummy food for us to eat.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, well that's the other thing too. And you're always
covering trees with grease and stuff. They know it's there.
A lot of times when we're walking in the snow,
the bear tracks already there in the snow.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Oh yeah, yeah. Do you guys hunt out a stands
over bad or do you guys?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I have exactly fifty to fifty. I do tree stands
for the bow guys and ground blinds for the gun guys.
And I mean we can do bow ground blinds, but
most of the time we try to put them in
a tree stand.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Okay, do you think it's better for evening hunts or
morning hunts?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
For bad Always we only do evening hunts. Our thermals
blow uphill during the day. You know, in the morning,
as soon as that sun comes up, the wind starts
blowing up the hill and that just gives away all
the trees, stands and blinds. We put out all our
people from one to two pm and then they sit
till dark. That's the best way to do it.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Do you try to put your your baits and stands
lower though than and the like draws, so you're taking
advantage of those downhill terminals.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
It's not always that it's the only place you can
get early spring like snow. Wise, so a lot of
our baits are in the bottom anyway, just because it's
the only place you're not stomping in three four feet
of snow at it, you know, when you put them out.
April fifteen, Okay, do you guys.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Do like a bear, like a grease burn, or like
a burn a bunch of like marshmallows and bare crafts.
Just do your shit on the ground.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
We've tried everything, so everything I use. Now my baits
are established for probably twenty five years now. They're all
big pits in the ground. They're three four foot holes
and huge logs on them. You know, every We're trying
to keep the elk in the deer out the best
we can. So everything we got is huge chainsawed logs
on them, and the bears will just come in and
fling them. Kind of keeps the mule, deer and the
(15:01):
elk out of it. The ravens too.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Okay, Yeah, do you ever have any wolves on your bait?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Oh? Yeah, not so much in you know, the you know, Panhandle,
but over in the Lolo we get collared ones on
camera a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Wow. You ever see any grizzlies? Do you guys ever
have grizzlies in that country?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
No? I don't know how. You know how many cameras
we've had out and they passed through, But no, we
have not. If I did have a grizzly around, I
would shut the bait down instantly, just not the chance it,
but I have it. I had one real bad black
bear a couple of years ago that was digging everything,
and we would have swore it was a grizzly, And
finally I slapped a camera up there and it was
just a big old, twenty one year old bore and
(15:40):
we ended up killing him.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Wow. Wow, that's crazy. How how old bears live like
you know, twenty one years like, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
The old the oldest that I one of my clients
has got back to me with their tag slip on
was twenty three. You know, I'm sure they get a
little older than that, but at twenty three years old,
that bear had no okay, nine is left and all
his teeth are rounded out.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Okay, And do they do They kind of like plateau
and then go down hill and regress as they get
that old, you.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Know, yeah, but you know it's kind of like you
just kind of see the muscle on their skulls kind
of diminish a little bit. They'll still have a big head,
but they won't have nearly as much muscle around where
the crease of their head would be. But yeah, that's
that's really all I've noticed. Yeah, I don't. I guess
it's hard to let them get to twenty one when
you're killing them all at six seven and eight, right, right?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You know, what's an average size bear? There's people that
throw around big numbers and what's an average size.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
But we tell everyone one fifty. You know, that's an
average bear in any state. I think obviously ours hibernate
for six months a year, so they take a lot
longer to grow. But we killed a three hundred and
thirty pound chocolate several years ago, and fishing game aged
at six years old, which is that's not real old
to be three hundred and thirty pounds. Yeah, so I
guess some can grow faster. No, there's even where we are.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Well, you look at people. You know, there's one dude
that's six seven and one dude that's five seven, And
you know, one guy's three hundred pounds, that next guy
is one hundred and twenty five. So I think you know.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Diversity, right, Yeah, I think they're a lot like people. There.
There's a lot that just don't ever get big.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, hey, this week's pendled and Whiskey Question
and answer. Before we get too much further, I want
to ask you this. I want you to put these
in order from your very favorite at the top of
the list, and then down the line and we'll see
how it kind of shakes out. So there is no order.
(17:35):
This is just random cat hunting, bear hunting, elk cutting,
deer hunting, and shed hunting. What's your favorite and then two, three, four, five.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Six, All right, I'm gonna go with obviously archer l
cunting first, then I'm gonna have to go with white
tail hunting. Then I'll probably have to go cat hunting,
shed hunting, bear hunting. Okay, but the cat hunting and
shed hunting was tough because I grew up as a houndsman,
(18:07):
and I love my hounds more than anything, and I
hate to shy away from them. But antlers, an elk
and deer. Really, since I was turned about eighteen years old,
I really got into that.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
How do you find time to go hunting? Do you
like just block out a week to go elk high
to yourself?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, so September for archery elk, I take the first
two weeks, which are probably the slower two weeks. I
hunt from August thirtieth til whatever it falls on the fourteenth,
and then that guy the fifteenth and the twenty second.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Usually yeah, yeah, you've done pretty good on that early season.
Do you find like sometimes you get some decent bulls
reacting to calls?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah? Man, I spend from about fourth of July till
September scouting, so I really have an upper hand of knowing.
I usually have the elk out I want to shoot
before I even start. Last year was probably the first
tag eight and fifteen years. Yeah, it's eating away at me,
but no, I've done really well with that early season.
Usually by September fourth, I have an opportunity at a
(19:14):
good herd bowl.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah. How many cams do you run on ELK?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I think I got about I think I had fifteen
out last year, about fifteen, and I'm running reconises and
bare boxes now, so I get a lot of picks
before having to change the batteries. As long as bears
don't hit them, my cameras will take almost all winter long.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Oh yeah, what kind of batteries are you using?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Lithium energizers?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Okay? And then what size SD cards are.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
You Yeah, I'm putting thirty twos or sixty fours and
everything now. Yeah, thirty twos used to fill up before
the batteries would die with the other cameras, but now
I think I can run sixty fours. Those are conics.
They take ten batteries and they last forever.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Okay. Yeah, I know some of my older cameras that
you couldn't put nothing, But you know the biggest you
could put in as a thirty two. Yeah, exactly hard,
which is frustrating sometimes sure, yeah, I had to play
with like settings like Okay, how often can I this
does this thing need to take a picture? You know,
instead of every you know, ten seconds, you know, every
three minutes or whatever, which kind of sucks, especially like
(20:22):
during September, because you get a bulk that just chases
through the area real quick on a cow and you
made that may have been your only chance to get
a shot of him, you know, it's they're so quick
on the draw.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Sometimes, yeah, one hundred percent. You got to look through
every pick, and you can't just look through the thumbnails.
You got to look at the background because you miss
a lot of those. Especially I keep everything on one
minute delay, but usually in September, if I'm going through
the area, I will change them to ten or thirty seconds,
just through the rut, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, I've a lot of times I'll like to put
one camera on the main main spot where I want
him to focus, and then like the trail leading to it,
I'll put one on video mode or something, and man,
it seems like I'll pick some I'll pick bulls up
that I never got on the other camera, and vice versa,
like you'll never see them on video. But but then
(21:11):
sometimes you'll see one on video you never saw on
the other camera, so it's kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I agree with that completely.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So back to shed hunting. I'm seeing you out with
your dogs. You got labs, you're hunting sheds with?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yep? I have two males and a female.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Okay, what kind of dogs you run?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
For?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Cats? Walker?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Hounds? Mostly? I've got a couple of plots, but walkers
are my dogs of choice.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Okay, So male or female lab? Which which do you
see like one like better than the other? Or do
you prefer like a male dog to a female dog?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Man, I prefer males. I know they're a pain with sniffing,
you know, and pain on everything, but I don't. I
like my males, and I'm the same way with hounds though.
I just like my male dogs better. But yeah, my
both my lab I have two black male labs and
a yellow female, and both those males are they put
the female to shame, and she looks good and she
(22:10):
finds sheds and everything. I just feel like she doesn't
use her nose as much as they do.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Right, do you think? So she's more of a sight
so she's looking for sheds with her eyes and the
boys are sniffing more.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yep, you can tell. You can watch her shed hut
with her eyes. And one thing you can one reason
you can tell is when they're using their nose, they're
moving a lot slower. When they're just running with their eyes,
they run full speed, and she's full speed everywhere.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Oh yeah, So did you train your dogs or did
you like half and half or would.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
You so my very first one I bought, my first two,
my male and my female I bought started at four
months old. So basically they know the command search, they
like to chew on horns, but they're not really finished,
you know. So I got them both out of Antler
Dogs and Missouri from Roger c. And the guy's a
heck of a dog trainer, and uh yeah, I just
(23:03):
bought two started ones that way and I finished them up.
And then this last one I did it. I trained
him moment.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
So so I've seen guys train dogs before, and sometimes
they'll do like they take like I don't know, a
big piece of like plastic or like construction paper, and
they'll cut out like a huge antler shape, and then
they'll put an antler by it and then let their
dogs go of like seat they like to catch their attention,
(23:31):
and then you know, the antler will have you know,
the I guess there's this stuff you can look almost
like in a persprint, Like it's like a wax, like
a antler base wax. They smear on the the butd
of the antler or the base of the antler, and
then once the dog's key into like seeing like oh,
there's an antler shaped thing over there, then they take
that away and then they just the dogs find the
antlers and then they start hiding them, like I don't know,
(23:54):
like I feel like that would encourage like site searching
by by looking for those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Don't Yeah, I agree with that one hundred percent. That's
what I was going to say. So, like mine were
actually training the search command on like just little kernels
of dog food. So it's getting them to use their nose.
Like when so when you go get a dog from
Roger and Missouri takes you in his little classroom and
he teaches you how they you know, teach him to
use their nose, and they teach bomb dogs and you know,
(24:22):
you know, drug dogs the same way. They teach them
the search command. And then they change whatever they're searching for. So,
like my guy used it pieces as a dog food
and it gets them using their nose and you know,
climbing around and have to find it. And then you know,
it's reward mineor all reward based training. So when they
do good, you give them a tree to pet them up,
you know, and you know they're you can't really be
(24:44):
that hard on them, they're you know, it's just it's
better to give them a reward than it is to
yell at him when they're doing something wrong, you know
what I mean. And I think a lot of mine
where my first dog was trained in cut corn fields
where you have the cornstock stick up everywhere, so they
had to use their nose because everything looks like an antler.
(25:04):
So I think that's a better way to train them
than yeah, like you just said, kind of leaning towards
using their eyes more. If they're in a you know,
a cut cornstock field where everything looks like an antler,
they have to use their nose.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah. Do you have any other experience with other breeds
of dogs and you have any buddies or anybody that
uses like let's say, a blue healer or no or something.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I don't. But the guy I bought mine from him,
he did. He had I think it was a bulldog
or a pit bull train and another different breed. And
that's the same guy I got my first lab from,
and no I haven't. I think one thing that labs
obviously love to retrieve. Obviously they're easy to train. I
think that's two of the reasons it's good for him.
(25:47):
They may not have the best nose, but they definitely have,
you know, a good nose for hunting. The hard part
about labs is antlers are boring. You know, a ball bounces,
a bird, flies, deer run. The hard part is keeping
them interested in a horn and not letting them go
out in the woods and flush grouse, chase ducks, run deer.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I think that's the hard part, is keeping them more
interested in a horn. So when they bring me one,
you know as a young dog, you know, you give
them a treat, pet them up, let them know they
did good, and then you know, throw it out there
and make them fetch it a few more times, and
just keep them interested in the horn like the horn
does something, rather than just sit there. You know. I
think that's the best way to explain it balls bounce,
(26:28):
you know, Like I said, birds fly, everything's more exciting
than an antler. Naturally, they like to chew on them
because they smell more like a bone, you know, and
they like the way it feels on their teeth. But
to actually go find them, you have to keep them,
you know. Interested.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah. I worked with my old lab that had passed
away here a couple of years ago. I worked with
him a lot when he was a pup to try
to get him to do sheds, and I didn't give
him any toys other than a shed antler, like from
the time we got him, and he loved antlers, and
he would fetch him and stuff like when we'd go
shed hunting, then I don't know, maybe we're in the
(27:04):
wrong spot probably where we probably get already got picked over.
But every now and then he'd find one. But sometimes
we would go camping, we'd just be sitting around the
fire and then here he'd come and he'd had a shed.
He'd just go grab one from somewhere bringing into camp.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
So yeah, I feel like I love that up at
camp when they just bring you on you don't know existed.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, yeah, like, and sometimes it's just like an old
you know, chalk, like, hey, wow, good, fine, where did
you find that thing? So I feel like, you know,
they they're driven to do it, you know. And I
let all my dogs play with play with sheds, and
they really prefer those to chew on those. Then a
lot of other things and even bones, like giving an
(27:43):
old alko boone or something. They'll chew the crap out
of that thing for a while, but eventually it's they
always go back to that shed antler mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah. I think that they. I don't know what it
is that draws them to It's got to be the
scent and the smell. One thing that people have the
miss conception of. I think they think that it's a
lot easier for a dog to find a fresh one
because they're trying to smell the actual deer scent on
the button of the horn, or the blood or the
wax ring on it. And I don't think, you know,
(28:10):
that's not always true. I'm sure that that horn, when
it freshly falls off, has that deer sent there and
puts off more scent than a horn that has been
out there a week and washed off. But like old horns,
like you were saying, the chalky, the green, the ones
that start to stink, those are the ones the dog's
really fine. Like, my dog doesn't miss an old horn
though we're on three four hundred yards, because they can
smell it from that far away and they'll bring it
(28:31):
back to you.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, I think. Also, I'm not a dedicated shed hunter,
and probably to disservice my dogs. Like you know, it,
probably could have had great shed dogs had I like
took them out all the time. But it seemed like
that was always a whenever I was doing this. It
was a tough time with kids, sports and whatever else.
You know, it's a busy time year, and I worked
(28:53):
a job that was really busy that time year. But
nowadays I have no excuse other than I just need
to get out there more.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, it is one hundred percent the time you put
into the dog, for sure. Even the guy that I
got my first one from Roger, he told me, you know,
you gotta almost take them every day. The more you
use them, the more their nose works. Just like hound dogs.
It's the same thing. Their nose kind of just goes
dead on them if they're not being used much. Right,
How I got into it originally was I'm a hunt
(29:21):
guy obviously, and was laid off every March in February
right after cat season, and I never had anyone to
shed hunt with. My buddy's always at nine to five jobs,
and you know, I never had anyone to go with.
So that's why I bought my first one. And you know,
within the first few years he got really good because
that's all we did from February tomorrow. You know, the
end of March was just shit hunt.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, it's pretty hard to hard to beat it. A
good companion dog, you know that's in the woods. Like, man,
they're such good they're just such good company, and they
don't talk back, and they're just game, like you want
to go over here? Heck yeah, they want to go
over there. They're just like they're like the ultimate hunting buddy.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah. And when they bring you the hornback, it goes
in your pile, not your best friends, you know, with
your best friend.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Right, you match up a set, you know, not oh.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Man, there's no fighting over it.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah. You don't have to trade any other good ones
to exactly to make the set. That's that's fun. Yeah.
How many sheds do you think to your average do
you say, do the dogs add to your your shed
antlerge average that you guys bring home.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I think the best, uh you know, my best years.
I think we go about fifty to fifty. It just
seems like they find more older ones and I'll pick
up more of the fresher ones. I don't try to
take multiple dogs at a time because it seems like
they just want to mess with each other, follow each
other around. If I take so my old one, now
he's thirteen, so he's really slowing down. My good years
(30:47):
were you know two, I think one nine, two d
and twenty horns one year two hundred and twelve. Those
are the good years. I'm not finding quite that many anymore.
But man, there's so much more competition now. It's in
North Idaho. You got obviously competition. You got way less
animals than we used to have. So it's it's really
tough training a dog now. I've been. I got a
(31:09):
couple buddies that want to get into it now, and
I told them I just don't think it's the right
time to train a dog in North Iido too. We
get some of our deer and oak numbers back.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah you know, yeah, good point, good point. How do
you keep track of your dogs while you're hunting with them,
so that the shed dogs so they don't run off
and get eaten by wolves do. They stay pretty pretty
close to you.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So my thirteen year old these really good. He'll range
out to like four hundred yards to grab a horn.
But I keep the garment the same system I'm running
on my hound dogs. I run on them. And it
wasn't ever because I was afraid of losing them or
they go too far won't find me. It was nothing
like that. It's just if they find one side of
a big set, you want to see where they pick
that up because a dog doesn't register, oh the other
(31:53):
side'es there. I got to run right back to there
and get that other side. You know, maybe my thirteen
year old would, but I know my young dogs are
just going to go looking somewhere else, you know. Sure,
So you see, you can tell right on the map
where they stopped at shows they sat down or stopped,
and then you just go to that point and start calming.
You know, you can see where they picked it up
from on them. Oh yeah, so that really helps out
(32:15):
big time. That's a game changer. When I started running
satellite collars on the shed dogs.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Oh yeah, that's that's really, really, really smart. I wondered
about that, which leads to another question. How big of
an elk antler can one of those dogs pack back?
Let's say they got a big old six point it's heavy, heavy,
horned bowl like and it's steep brushy country. How far
will will those seem kind of like packing for a
(32:40):
while and struggle or maybe abandon.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Them or no, My mails, they got so much drive
they won't give up. If they can't get it out
from underneath the blowdown or a tree, they will just
stay there. And then I'll eventually I'll just stare at
the collar and make sure they stay there, and I'll
walk to them. But my thirteen year old, I'll grab
a twelve pound thirteen pound elk corn and he will
carry it as far as he can. Wow, And I
mean he'll be exhausted when he gets their wagon's tail.
(33:04):
But I try to cut to him as fast as
I can when I know they're struggling, you know, just
because you don't want to tire them out either, you know,
and make them lose interest with fighting with a horn.
But those two males, they'll carry any size horn they
can get in their mouth. But my female, she'll pick
up a five point carry at two feet, spit it out,
just stare at me telling me to come get it.
You know. She definitely doesn't carry him like they do.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, well, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
One thing that I learned too from my guy is
when they go through the teething when they're real young.
He told me they lose interest in horns for a
couple of months when they when they're teething because it
hurts their teeth, and he wasn't kidding, And after those
couple of months they go right back to an antler.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Really okay, yeah that makes sense. I kind of see
that with my pupp that like he shied kind of
well he was teething, he kind of shied away from
hard stuff. But yeah, exactly starts shredding pillows and crap
like y yeah, love that stuffed animals and stuff. Yeah, yeah,
that that's really cool. What is your best tip if
(34:10):
you were to like give someone a tip for training
shed dogs.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Basically, probably number one is obviously just being patient. Don't
get mad at them. You know, you got to keep
them into it, give them rewards, pet them up and
I would use I don't know, you brought up the
you know, the antler scent stuff that you can put
on horns or put on stuff. I stayed clear of
all that stuff. I froze fresh horns, is what I did.
(34:36):
I wouldn't touch them with my hands. I froze fresh horns,
so you get the wax ring and the flood and
that stuff stays on there. And then when I threw
them out in the woods to trade them, you know,
I would use rubber gloves. I wouldn't walk near it.
And a lot of times I would do it the
day before, like in the rain, and then let it
rain overnight, so I knew there was no human scent
anywhere around them. And I think that helps out a lot,
(34:57):
because you know, when you're sitting there playing fetch with
a dog, obviously you got your human scent on it,
and they're they're saliva, you know, they smell all that stuff.
The number one thing is not have any of that
kind of stuff on it. And just like it fell
off the deer's head, you know, or elk's head.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Oh yeah, that's that's really good. Have you ever tried
to have them track blood trails like I haven't, Okay,
I was just wondering. As a as a guide an outfitter,
then you probably have clients sometimes make not the most
perfect shot and didn't didn't know if they were there's
any if you've ever used a blood tracking.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Dog to no. So like with obviously with our bears,
we just use our hounds, you know, and we'll want
them on a leash to retrieve them, but we never
with with deer and olt. Well, I don't even they
just kind of legalized it, didn't they for us for
to track deer and elk with dogs. When I was younger,
we couldn't do.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
It, right, Yeah, I think that, yeah, you have you
have to be on a leash or whatever.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah. Yeah, they've changed over the last few years.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah. I did a podcast with a guy here a
month or so ago, Matt gagn And he he works
with a blood trail of dog dog and and and
he's in part of an organization that that's they train,
they compete, they promote, and then I think they even
have like a website on the on the internet. You
can go log in or not log in. You just
(36:18):
go to it and like look for people and within
that organization, within your area, and he said, shoot, guys
will drive six hours sometimes to to Let's say, you
like hit an help and you wanted to have some
help find it with a dog. Then then guys will
drive six hour hours to come up and help. So
it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I know, it's really big in Oklahoma and Kansas. Now,
well the dogs got big and now it's the drone thing.
Now they're using drones to find their deer for them.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Oh yeah, those thermal drones. Those are crazy crazy. Speaking
about thermals, that's kind of a big topic these days.
What what's your take on those thermal like just binoculars, monoculars.
(37:08):
I know they're legal right now in Idaho, you know,
but I know Washington's not. What's your take on that? Man?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I kind of go both ways. I don't own any.
Every one of my friends has one, and you know,
shows me cool videos and stuff. I think it's cool,
but I think it's getting outlawed soon. Honestly, I don't
think it'll be legal very long.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like you say, it's it's cool,
but sometimes I like to cheer for the animal, you know,
the deer they help whatever, and it's like, yeah, you
gotta look, you gotta give them a chance, you know.
But but even so, I've been around it a little bit,
and you know you can you can spot deer and
elk with them. But that doesn't mean you're gonna kill one.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
But yeah, I don't. I didn't run out and buy
one like everyone else did, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Well, they're expensive. It's a big investment to to to
risk having it be outlawed. And you're like, okay, well
now what, yeah exactly, I guess scouting maybe during the
off season. Maybe they're legal. I'm not sure what.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah, Honestly, I don't know. There's so much great even
with the drones. You don't know if it is it
legal to find hunting season? Can you not? You know,
if you read the law.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Book, it's confusing, right, I know. Anytime we ever use
like a drone for those cool drone shots for videos
and stuff, it'll be like, all right, after we're all
done hunting, we're tagged out, you know, we're no longer hunting,
and then we'll fly the drone just in case there's
ever ever any kind of like issue or whatever. And honestly,
film permit, we got to, you know, we always do
(38:32):
things right. We got to go through film permits to
the for Service, and they're expensive, and if you add
a drone on there, then it's adds another layer of expense.
So so sometimes if you know, I hate to give
away my secret, but if you go on online, there's
all these different video and photo companies that have stock video,
stock stock photos, and you can you can buy download
(38:54):
these these videos of areas that looked similar or whatever
to where you're hunting to where you can have those
and not have to worry about the extra expense of
a drone license or pilot or whatever. They usually cost
you more money anyway with your gut your camera guy
if he's a drone guy.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
So yeah, it's crazy how many people don't know about
the Forest Service permits for filming, and you know, you
tell them like cause they come into camp like yeah,
I'm gonna do this for my YouTube channel. It's like
you gotta pay. They get you fifty bucks a day,
don't they for filming?
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I think, yeah, it's something like that. It used to be.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah, I used to do a lot of hunting shows
and then we kind of tapered down on them now yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, well they say you know, it's this much a day,
but then they can charge an application fee, and some
national forests will be like, you know, it'll be a
five hundred dollars fee, and other places it won't be
any fee at all. It's just weird. And then some
national forests they're just like, you don't need to permit
for what you're doing, and they'll cite some some you know,
article seven blah blah, you know, some article in the
(39:55):
rule book, and they won't even charge it because you're
not really impacting the environment by a couple of guys
going hunting with a camera. But there's been some new
legislation come through. I think it's called part of the
Explorer Act or something to where it's not required to
have a like a big expensive film permit. And then
(40:17):
I wonder with all this for service cutbacks, you know, man,
it's like pulling teeth to get one anyway with a
full staff for a service. Now that there's they've had
all these jobs eliminated, a cutback or whatever, I don't
even know if you could get one. There's nobody at
a desk to to to reply even so I don't
know how that's going to play into this fall. I
(40:38):
guess we'll kind of see.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
But yeah, I think we're going to experience a bunch
of that here coming up, because you've got to get
your bait permits. You know, we got to do all
of our use stuff in the beginning of the season,
and if there's not a buoys, everything's going to take longer.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Oh yeah, like film permits. We kind of figure out
where we're gonna l hunt or whatever by the time,
you know, by let's say June, and what's June, Well,
that's the beginning of fire season, or it's fire season
in some other state. Let's say. You know these and
love for service folks travel around for that, you know, Yeah,
they do to assist in the fires. And I think
(41:13):
that's a lot of our issues. Like a lot of
folks are just out of the office during that time
year they're busy with fires and whatever else. So yeah,
be an interesting year for sure. So ELK, are you
a call guy or are you a spot in stock guy?
Speaker 2 (41:35):
No, I'm a call guy. I'm probably blowing calls when
I shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Be, Like you, right right right, I probably I probably
do it too much. But the kind of country I know,
you hunt a lot of the same kind of stuff
I do. And man, I just probably wouldn't kill any
ELK if I didn't call.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, man, I have a really good luck calling. I
have a really good luck calling for myself. I think,
are you know there I hunt are where my honey
holes are? They're they're not real call shy. They're more
shy of wolves and predators than are people. So I
think I have that advantage. But no, I'm I'm definitely
a huge call guy. I think I've called in every
bull that I've shot pretty sure.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yeah. Yeah. If it wasn't for calls, i'd probably have
only killed maybe one or two elk. Yeah. So, and
it's funny like you dive into calling ELK in different
opinions on ELK, and some guys will say, oh, never
chuckle at a bowl because that tells him this, and
never col call it a bowl only calf call, and
(42:36):
only do this one certain bugle at a at a bowl.
What what's your take on calling in ELK?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
I mean, can you My My one take is only
chuckle if you can. But no, I think I call
in a lot of bulls with chuckles because there's not
a lot of people that can do it, and I don't.
I think it fires them up where I am. I mean,
I don't use it even as a last resort. I'm
I mean, I've watched you hung enough on your you
know your shows. I do a lot of calling. I'm aggressive,
(43:06):
you know. When I get in there, I get in
there quick. I think a lot of times they're not
used to people coming in as on them as fast.
So when I come in like I do, loud and fast,
you know, then they think I'm another Elk. And you know,
a lot of times I get them close shots. You know,
I'm close and personal nice bulls because of the I'm
definitely not one to shy away from a chuckle or
(43:26):
a bugle on anything. I try try everything really.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
So you don't just elm or fud it through the
woods like nice and quiet, like like you're slipping on
white tails. You're like breaking brush and just moving hard
and fast.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Going over blowdowns like I heard elk is you know, yeah,
I'm not. I mean there is, don't get me wrong.
You know there's times when you need to be quiet.
There's times when you're guys behind you call them and
you need to slip in. But when I'm calling for myself,
and I'm the one running in a lot of times
i'm drawn, you know, coming around a tree and they're
already standing there. I'm pretty I'm pretty aggressive. I don't
(44:02):
think I would have the trophy room I have if
I wasn't in the country we hunt, you know, that
same thing, that thick brush country, you know what I Meantime,
I'll run in, you know, have them at twenty where
I can't see him for an hour, and then finally
just get fed up, draw my bow and run in.
And sometimes they'll stand there and stare long enough for
you to get a shot on a three ten twenty bowl.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
You know. Yeah, they're like, what is that?
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Nobody's dumb enough to run in on us right here?
You know? Yeah? Yeah, so very good luck calling.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, I know you've hunted New Mexico a fair amount.
How much different is elk hunting in New Mexico versus Idaho?
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Man, it's you know a lot of fun days, a
lot of bugling. You hear a lot more bugles down there,
but every bugle you hear is running away from you.
Typically I'm not the only one. Yeah, I will admit
those elk are harder to call it's not. It's night
and day. I get down there. I'm so used to
calling everything in in Idaho, and I get on there,
and those elk just they'll scream and they answer every call.
(45:04):
But they're they're moving away When it sounds like they're
coming in and getting closer, Nope, that's them moving up
out of the draw on the next ridge. That's why
they got louder. It's tough hunting down there too. For
how many elk there are anyway?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
Yeah, do you find once they go to bed, do
they stick in that same bed for very long? Do
they stay there all day like Northido elk do, or
they they move?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
They move? Well, okay, so let me let me say this.
The last time I was there, which was the toughest
hun I had, and I was in the Hila, I
think people move them around all day, more so than
the elk wanting to get up and move. There was
a lot of hunters on the same mountain last time
I was hunting in the HeLa. You're talking about one
hundred and fifty tag holders trying to hunt the same
(45:50):
you know, oh man acres. Geez. Yeah, that's tough. So
I think our elk and and and Idaho are a
lot more predictable to me, you know, but that's just
because we've hunted them our whole lives.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Probably, Yeah, And I think I think they kind of
stick tight to bed a lot longer for us in
New Mexico. Man, you would we would put them things
to bed and be like, all right, we're gonna let them. Okay,
this is ten am. We're gonna wait till like twelve,
like those winds change, you get, let them get you know,
all settled in, and then we'll make a move. And sometimes,
like more times than not, by waiting a couple hours,
(46:27):
we go over there and they're long gone. They've just toot.
They're just like.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
I know. What's tricky is a lot of times there
you think they're bedding, but they're not. They move ten
to fifteen miles, you know what I mean. It's like
not just over the ridge, they moved ten miles. Oh yeah,
you know which we're in Idaho. I think that our
are really you know, rugged country keeps them from going
so far, you know what I mean, Right between betting
(46:53):
and feeding.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Yeah, And I think ideal betting and feeding areas are
a lot closer together in Idahovas is New Mexico. Maybe
they're like, all right, we have a water tank over here,
but we really like this place over here to bed
and they just like cover so much ground.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Yeah, it's just it's like, yeah, if you laid Idaho
flat with a rolling pin, I'm sure elk would move
a lot further. It's just they definitely seem to go
five miles on a straight line there. Like you said,
you think they're bed and then then all of a
sudden they're just gone gone.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
One thing that was crazy we found out is the
sound travel so much better in New Mexico. So we
would be like, oh man, there's just bulls on the
other side of this ridge over here, and we'd walk
to the other side of the ridge only to figure
out that there's still like a half a mile away
over onto the next across this huge drainage over on
the next you know ridge. It's like, holy, like, how
(47:44):
am I so far off? But it just like seemed
like the sound travels well, like you say, it's a
lot flatter, but there is some topography in certain areas,
But those little trees, those pinion juniper seedars, they don't
seem to like stifle the sound like bugles like they
do in big timber country up north. Have you kind
of yes?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I agree, one hundred percent. I think Idaho so thick
we hear a bugle, we know it's in you know range,
you know it's probably a lot closer than you think
a lot of times even. Yeah, but yes, I agree
with that. Down there sound carry is a long way,
especially when they're higher than you and you know they're
you know, going up over the canyons.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Yeah. Do you are you a gutless method guy or
you like an old school like these hatchets and split
him up into four being ginormous quarters.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
No, man, I don't use anything but an outdoor edge
and ife, and I'm gutless on pretty much everything nowadays.
I take the inners out through the last room there
and I try not to get anything. If I got
to go back and get pack mules far away or
something I had to do that, I'll get them. But
most of the time, if we're packing on our backs there,
the mules are pretty close. Ill. Uh, gutless.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah. How many mules do you guys run?
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Man? I had about around thirty. We've had a rough winner.
I think we just lost four of old age. So
oh man, we're gonna be looking for some new ones.
We get a lot of years out of them. Man,
we'll use them till they're you know, low to mid thirties.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
So if we get them at five six years old,
we get them, you know, a lot of use out
of them.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
So are your elk camps? Are those all like a
pack in like with with stock?
Speaker 2 (49:22):
So everything used to be used to be all spike camps,
wall tank camps. The way the wolves hit us so
bad in the back country, everything is done out of
our base camp. Now, Okay, our elk numbers are better
closer to the roads than they are in the back country.
I mean, you go way back when I was a
kid where it was really killer, and you know, you know,
nineteen ninety eight, you know, ninety nine, two thousand, there's
(49:43):
not even animals back there anymore. The wolves hit us
so hard, and so the stuff that was great back
then is desolate now. And you know, it's kind of crazy.
I think they'lk stick to where the fishermen all are
all summer. I think the fishermen keep the wolves.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Away from the wolves are scared of fly rods.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, that's it's funny you say that, Like all of
my hunting spots that like, the further you go back,
that will like less elky get into and the closer
to civilization in town you get then there's there's more help.
There's just more animals.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Yeah, And it kind of sucks because a lot of
the people you know that want to book a hunt
stall of the old school mentality they need to be
in the back country. The further back, the better the
hunt is. But I and I have to go to
the shows explaining to them it's not that way in
northern at least in Idaho anymore.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
It's yeah, yeah, and there's something romantic about going to
the back country and staying in a wall tant way
back and horses and mules and you know, just that's
that's American dream like for the quintessential elk hunt. You know,
you know, it's a lot less romantic to hunt out
of a truck every day. And some people even thumb
(50:54):
their nose out a little bit like, ah, you guys
aren't true back country elkhunty. Okay, all right.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yeah, I do it all. I'll do whatever it takes
to kill elk.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yeah, yeah, me too. I'm the same boat you see. Guys.
It's funny too, Like I'll talk to folks who'll go
to Colorado. You know, they've got such you know, a
lot of wilderness country and a lot of really great
trail systems, and they'll be like, I'm gonna pack in
seven miles or eight miles with my backpack hunt, you know,
and we're gonna stay there at ten days. And man,
(51:24):
they'll go back there and they're like, man, I didn't
we were back there for like seven days and didn't
see an elk. You know, they kind of just go
all in on that instead of that one spot. That
one spot. It's like, man, you just don't know what
happened the week before. There could have been another big
group of people that shot elk and blew them all
out of there, you know. Or or maybe there's just
a lot of blue haired weirdos backpacking, you know in
(51:47):
the summertime, a lot of hikers. Yeah, no doubt. You
heard a lot of crazy stories about about all the
three hikers. You know, you'd be begging a bowl or something.
You hear something look on the trail and there's a
here's a guy or a gall and spandex, you know,
walking along and it's like, what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (52:05):
Yeah, my buddy, one of my best friends, lives in
Denver and they all cut a Colorado of a lot
of years, and he's got some good stories about hikers
screwing up his hunts.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Yeah, I was. I was in central Idaho el hunt
in one time and had this bull going and man,
he was just kind of hung up, but I was.
I was like, man, any minute, he's gonna like break
loose and come in. And I heard the weirdest noise.
And I was off of this old logging road, you know,
and I heard the weirdest noise behind me. It's like,
what the hell is that noise? I turned around and
this dude on a mountain bike and he was wearing
(52:34):
bright like fluorescent blue like spandex tops and bottoms. He
had a helmet on and everything it comes zip and
just like through on a mountain bike. Of course, the
bull spooked out of there. I'm like, what the hell, what,
what's the what are the chances of that happening?
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Yeah, definitely less than northern Idaho.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Well, most of the trails up there, you can't get
it by sickle on them anyway, let's the dirt biker's
cut it out and seemed like the for service never
cut trails anymore like these two.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Yeah, no, we cut all our own trails. They don't
do anything in our area anymore. That's why when I
run into hunters, you know, and they're asking me this,
and I'm like, I cut every trail here. There wouldn't
be a trail here if you didn't, you know, if
I wasn't out here all summer.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's brutal. It's brutal. Well man, thanks
so much for coming on the podcast. And know I
had to twist your arm just a little bit to
get you on here, but but I appreciate it. We're
where can folks find your outfitting website? Uh?
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Yeah, just go to the website www dot Russell Pond
Outfitters dot com and we have the new website there,
or you can find us on face, Facebook or Instagram.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
Okay, and then your personal social media account.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Yeah, Chris Cabral just C h R S C A
B R A L. And yeah, I'm the head guy
pretty much operator of everything.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Yeah, head cook and bottle washer and everything. Huh yeah, do.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
It too much to cook. I away from the cook.
Oh that's good.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
You may not want to eat it.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
No, I can cook, I just choose not to.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Yeah that's good. So well, thanks again for coming on
and appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
Man, all right, no problem. Hope to see you soon.
Get the hell hunt together sometime.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yeah, that'd be awesome. I love the country you're in
and man it's I've hunted around it a little bit,
and uh, yeah, someday it'd be really fun to come
up and go do this and do an elk hunt.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah, for sure. So I have to work it out, yep.
Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance podcast.
I'm Dirk Durham and this week's guest is a family man,
an outfitter and guide and all around outdoorsman. Welcome to
the show. Chris Cabralhi's a villain, Dirk Good, Did I
say your last name right?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yep? Cabral that's correct?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Perfect? Perfect. So how's winter treated you so far? At
your Instagram shows, You've been pretty busy.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
It's pretty slow early December just because of lack of
snow cat hunting. But after that, once about Christmas hit,
we had a really good season, ended up killing seven real.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Nice cat Holy cal that's awesome. How many cat clients
do you typically take out every week?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I try to take between eight and ten usually.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Okay, yeah, Now do you guys are you guys camping
at your remote base camp out there? Are you?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Like? No, We run all of our cat hunts out
of Avery, Idaho, that little town, and we can start
hunting just nine miles out of town, so we actually
stay in an apartment or a house that we ran
every winter, and we got Wi Fi and running water
and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Okay, Okay, on off snowmobiles or do you guys using
side by sides or tracks or anything.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
No, we use We use snowmobiles and trucks for all
our cat hunts. Side by sides of tracks are just
too slow. We need to cover up as much ground
as we can.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah. Yeah, I've heard guys talk about the side by
sides with tracks. They're cool, but man, they use a
lot of fuel and they're just not very fast.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah. It's a maintenance thing on the bearings and fuel
is just incredibly you know, they're just not economical at all.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah. Do you guys get any any really big cats
this year?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah? About the biggest one was probably one ninety five
Cole Tom.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's a giant.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a good one.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Do you think do you think taking that many cats
out of the picture is really helping the elk and
dear herds up there?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I mean, I think so definitely. You can see the
kills drop down from the end of the beginning of
the season to the end. By the end, there's no
next to no cat kills, you know. And we've been
hut in the same area for twenty five years, so
we've definitely saved a lot of you know, deer and
milk for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, that's nice. And then after cat season you got
trade shows. How many of those do you typically do?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Man with social media and the website now, we've downsized
so much. We only do the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania show anymore,
and we do. We've done that show for thirty eight
years and we do really well there.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Holy cow, Yeah that's a long time. That's a long
show too. Is it like ten days?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah? Nine nine days yep?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh wow, Yeah, those those are kind of marathon days.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah. I wish they would shut it down to like
maybe the first weekend to Wednesday, But I don't know.
We do really well at.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
It, yeah, perfect. You get a lot of return clients
or picking up new guys all the time.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
We get new guys, but our biggest thing is eighty
to ninety percent repeat clientele. So some of them guys
haven't hunted with us in twenty years. They bear hunted
twenty years ago, and then they'll come back on a
cat hunt now, you know, or elk hunt, you know
whatever it be.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Sure sure are you guys running bears with dogs? Are
you guys strictly bear baiting?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I do mostly bear baiting. I run it with dogs.
I run them with dogs for my repeat clients and
guys that are in shape that know they can make
it to the tree. The hard part is our areas
are so remote. Not everybody can make it to a
bear tree. Bears run so much further than cats do
in our country.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, I notice that going out with Bradley here on
bear hunts. I never really realize how much much ground
American cover on it when they're pursued by dogs.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, most people have no clue how far they can
run there, Like a cat can run less than a bear.
Cats are really short winded. A barrel run for twelve
hours straight.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, it's incredible. And then some of that country, like
you say, it's very remote and if this kind of
if you get into that roadless stuff, then you kind
of you're risking like maybe not getting your dogs till
the next day or something.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, And I mean, honestly, there's enough roadless stuff where
you can get your dog. Never get your dogs back, honestly,
the GPS callers die and then you're in a predicament.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Oh yeah, do you when you are running dogs for
cats and bears, do you kind of pregame it a
little bit checking for wolf sign to see if there's
any wolves in the area.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Always. I'm probably one of the luckier guys in Idaho
when it comes to hounds and wolves because I run
all my roads seven days a week and I don't
mess around if there's wolves in the area, I just
won't turn loose on a cat track.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah. Yeah, for the listeners.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Oh go ahead. I was just gonna say a lot
of my good friends I've had dogs hurt by wolves,
but I knock on woods still to this day. I've
been very lucky.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
That's good. Yeah for our listeners that don't know. You know,
if if wolves here baying hound dogs, then that's like
a big attractment and they'll go and they'll go fight them,
kill them. Is it kind of a territorial thing.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It's territorial things, same thing they do to coyotes. They
just don't want any other canine in their areas.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, that's crazy. I've seen a lot of really really
sad posts where folks have had their dogs chewed up
or killed and eaten, and it's devastating. Say you have,
you know, you spent years building your your dog pack
up and you know, lots of training you know, hour,
thousands of hours of training to have them, you know,
(05:54):
eaten by a wolf. That's that's pretty harsh. It's pretty rough. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, they're pretty much family when you raise from pups.
And we're just like Brad, we raise all our own
dogs from pups, you know, most of our own bloodlines.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah. So with all your all your irons in the fire.
So your you're working, you're guiding, you're hunting. You like
to hunt yourself, Yeah, yeah, you shed you shed hunt.
I see you are always doing some honey dues, home
improvements and and and then hanging out with your little buddy,
your son. And how do you how do you balance
(06:29):
your work with your play and then your family time.
How do you make balance that all out? Man?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
It's definitely tough. I know when I was young, my
dad was gone all the time in the woods, and
I said to myself that I didn't want to be
that way. I didn't want to miss every little league
game and every basketball game. So I think a lot
of it's having the right employees, hiring the right people
so you don't have to micromanage all the time, and babysit.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I do love taking my three year old shed hunting.
He loves every day, he says, go horn hunting today.
Every day he wakes up, that's all he wants to
do is shed hunts.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So yeah, so your your outfitting business? What's it called?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Russell Pond and b bar C Outfitters. We actually have
two different names. The Russell Pond name started thirty eight
years ago. In about nineteen eighty six. My dad bought
a bear hunting business in Maine and we just did
bear hunts, moose hunts, and whitetail hunts, and that's where
it all started. And then he wanted to stay going
full time and the only way to do that was
to move out west and have spring bear hunting also.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Okay, but nowadays got you guys, are you know branched
out to you know, kats and elk and do you
guys outfit for deer as well? Not?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
You know, mainly by choice. I just choose not to.
We let our elk hunters buy deer tags and they
can shoot them if they want to, but we don't
do strictly deer hunts just because of that reason. We're
just I loved whitetail hunting myself. I go down to Oklahoma,
Kansas the months of November, So I like to, you know,
get a little bit of time off myself.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Sure, I can relate, and I can imagine it's kind
of nice to you know that that's one kind of
thing that's kind of kept me out of guiding as
a young fellow, you know, a young buck. I was like, man,
I should get into guiding it, but then I won't
build a hunt as much, and then I just never
kind of pursued it. But did you always kind of
know that you'd wanted to be a guide or yeah,
(08:25):
part of the fire business.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, honestly, I think even in elementary school, when you know,
kids were asking what you want to be when you
grew up, or the teachers that ask you, I think
I wanted to be a hunt guid in my whole life.
I think that was just what I wanted to do.
I've been skinning bears since I was probably six seven
years old.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Man, man, So how many bear baits do you guys
typically run a year.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I'm run about seventy five now between two areas, and
I don't use them all. I always have plenty of
extra baits. A couple of years ago, I killed thirty
three off of just the less and baits. So that's
how good the baits are.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Wow. Wow. So if I were to say, you know, well,
you see, I hear this all the time, special with
dogs and wan baits, like that's the lazy man's way. Yeah,
what do you got to say about that?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
No, Northern Idaho we pack eighty pounds all day long,
every day from you know, daylight till dark. And I
do think it's a little different than Canada or main
They got a little easier than we do. Everything's work
and Idaho.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, it's funny, like that's kind of I don't. I
don't really bear bait at all, just because it's so
much work and time. It's kind of a time suck, right,
I mean, you have to like make sure you got
bait on bait on your baits, food on your baits,
and if you don't have enough time to dedicate, then
it seems like them things kind of you know, they'll
(09:50):
go they'll go dry on you, to go south on you.
So yeah, I just don't. I haven't had a lot
of time to do that. And you know, and then
collecting of bait, that's that's a lot of work too. Like,
what do you guys put on your baits?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So everything we do now we get it all out
of semi loads from Wisconsin, and we've done that for
twenty years probably, But I mean a seven semi load
with shipping and everything, it's about twelve grand. So that's
a lot of money too. I got about two hundred
and eighty barrels being delivered the first week of April,
and that two hundred and eighty barrels will only last
(10:24):
this year and this you know, this spring in this fall.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Okay, So what kind of food is in there?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Oh? I'm sorry? Yeah, cookies, cookies, and a lot of
like mixed they'll mix chocolate, popcorn, ganola, gummy bears, all
kinds of stuff. They put in a big cement mixer
and mix it together. So we get barrels of that.
So the bears we keep them fed well and they
don't get sick of the bait as much as just
using like dog food and grease.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Sure. Sure, how do you pack that? Do you guys
put it in like a big burlap sack or what
do you know?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So since I was a little kid, the way we've
always carried it's been five gallon buckets, and it's probably
not the smartest to do on your shoulders and elbows,
but that's the way we're done. We brought up, we're
brought up into it, and that's the way we still
do it now. A lot of times, if it's a
really good bait with big bears on it, I will
pack two buckets in my hand, and I'll put fifty
pounds on a frame. I'll pack for him too. So
(11:19):
but yeah, you're just trying to keep him fed the
best you can do. You.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Okay, there's a lot of guys that say you got
to keep your bears hungry or no, you put it
but as much bait on that pile as you can
and and and that'll get them. Which do you subscribe to?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
One hundred percent? Feed them as much as you possibly can.
And the more these guys with the barrels with the
little tiny holes in it, and they got to roll
it around and all they get is a little piece
of popcorn. Big bears don't want to stay there and
fool with that for very long. You're gonna get a
lot of little ones that just live there. And that's
what you're gonna see a lot of. But a big
bear will come, eat a couple bites and then they're
(12:00):
going to walk to somebody's bait that's much easier to
eat out of you. That's and that's my opinion. But
I mean we do. We kill a lot lot of
big bears by just feeding them as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah. I've seen pictures of guys who who subscribe to
the put a ton of bait out. You know, they'll
put hundreds of pounds out and big barrell come and
they'll just lay on it and just they hang out
and defend it. And those guys are always the ones
killing the really nice bears too.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, and that's one of the reasons I kind of
I kind of stay away from barrels because I think
big bears don't like to fight for food. So one thing,
like when we put our baits out, say April fifteenth,
we'll go with three guys. We'll have five hundred pounds
of bait before the first bear even hits it. So
those bears just come and live there. They they eat
on that till it's almost gone, and then you know,
(12:51):
then we're kind of trying to keep up with them
after that because obviously when their digestive plug is still in.
They don't eat nearly as much as they will a
couple weeks into the sea, So we'll have five six
hu pounds there to get them started. They'll just kind
of live there. And that's what makes them so patternable,
you know, and you know consistent.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, well, they're they're smart. They probably remember year to
year the like like, Okay, it's springtime, I'm gonna go
over there, and there's that guy that just puts out
yummy food for us to eat.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, well that's the other thing too. And you're always
covering trees with grease and stuff. They know it's there.
A lot of times when we're walking in the snow,
the bear tracks already there in the snow.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Oh yeah, yeah. Do you guys hunt out a stands
over bad or do you guys?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I have exactly fifty to fifty. I do tree stands
for the bow guys and ground blinds for the gun guys.
And I mean we can do bow ground blinds, but
most of the time we try to put them in
a tree stand.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Okay, do you think it's better for evening hunts or
morning hunts?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
For bad Always we only do evening hunts. Our thermals
blow uphill during the day. You know, in the morning,
as soon as that sun comes up, the wind starts
blowing up the hill and that just gives away all
the trees, stands and blinds. We put out all our
people from one to two pm and then they sit
till dark. That's the best way to do it.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Do you try to put your your baits and stands
lower though than and the like draws, so you're taking
advantage of those downhill terminals.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
It's not always that it's the only place you can
get early spring like snow. Wise, so a lot of
our baits are in the bottom anyway, just because it's
the only place you're not stomping in three four feet
of snow at it, you know, when you put them out.
April fifteen, Okay, do you guys.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Do like a bear, like a grease burn, or like
a burn a bunch of like marshmallows and bare crafts.
Just do your shit on the ground.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
We've tried everything, so everything I use. Now my baits
are established for probably twenty five years now. They're all
big pits in the ground. They're three four foot holes
and huge logs on them. You know, every We're trying
to keep the elk in the deer out the best
we can. So everything we got is huge chainsawed logs
on them, and the bears will just come in and
fling them. Kind of keeps the mule, deer and the
(15:01):
elk out of it. The ravens too.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Okay, Yeah, do you ever have any wolves on your bait?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Oh? Yeah, not so much in you know, the you know, Panhandle,
but over in the Lolo we get collared ones on
camera a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Wow. You ever see any grizzlies? Do you guys ever
have grizzlies in that country?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
No? I don't know how. You know how many cameras
we've had out and they passed through, But no, we
have not. If I did have a grizzly around, I
would shut the bait down instantly, just not the chance it,
but I have it. I had one real bad black
bear a couple of years ago that was digging everything,
and we would have swore it was a grizzly, And
finally I slapped a camera up there and it was
just a big old, twenty one year old bore and
(15:40):
we ended up killing him.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Wow. Wow, that's crazy. How how old bears live like
you know, twenty one years like, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
The old the oldest that I one of my clients
has got back to me with their tag slip on
was twenty three. You know, I'm sure they get a
little older than that, but at twenty three years old,
that bear had no okay, nine is left and all
his teeth are rounded out.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Okay, And do they do They kind of like plateau
and then go down hill and regress as they get
that old, you.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Know, yeah, but you know it's kind of like you
just kind of see the muscle on their skulls kind
of diminish a little bit. They'll still have a big head,
but they won't have nearly as much muscle around where
the crease of their head would be. But yeah, that's
that's really all I've noticed. Yeah, I don't. I guess
it's hard to let them get to twenty one when
you're killing them all at six seven and eight, right, right?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You know, what's an average size bear? There's people that
throw around big numbers and what's an average size.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
But we tell everyone one fifty. You know, that's an
average bear in any state. I think obviously ours hibernate
for six months a year, so they take a lot
longer to grow. But we killed a three hundred and
thirty pound chocolate several years ago, and fishing game aged
at six years old, which is that's not real old
to be three hundred and thirty pounds. Yeah, so I
guess some can grow faster. No, there's even where we are.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Well, you look at people. You know, there's one dude
that's six seven and one dude that's five seven, And
you know, one guy's three hundred pounds, that next guy
is one hundred and twenty five. So I think you know.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Diversity, right, Yeah, I think they're a lot like people. There.
There's a lot that just don't ever get big.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, hey, this week's pendled and Whiskey Question
and answer. Before we get too much further, I want
to ask you this. I want you to put these
in order from your very favorite at the top of
the list, and then down the line and we'll see
how it kind of shakes out. So there is no order.
(17:35):
This is just random cat hunting, bear hunting, elk cutting,
deer hunting, and shed hunting. What's your favorite and then two, three, four, five.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Six, All right, I'm gonna go with obviously archer l
cunting first, then I'm gonna have to go with white
tail hunting. Then I'll probably have to go cat hunting,
shed hunting, bear hunting. Okay, but the cat hunting and
shed hunting was tough because I grew up as a houndsman,
(18:07):
and I love my hounds more than anything, and I
hate to shy away from them. But antlers, an elk
and deer. Really, since I was turned about eighteen years old,
I really got into that.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
How do you find time to go hunting? Do you
like just block out a week to go elk high
to yourself?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, so September for archery elk, I take the first
two weeks, which are probably the slower two weeks. I
hunt from August thirtieth til whatever it falls on the fourteenth,
and then that guy the fifteenth and the twenty second.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Usually yeah, yeah, you've done pretty good on that early season.
Do you find like sometimes you get some decent bulls
reacting to calls?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah? Man, I spend from about fourth of July till
September scouting, so I really have an upper hand of knowing.
I usually have the elk out I want to shoot
before I even start. Last year was probably the first
tag eight and fifteen years. Yeah, it's eating away at me,
but no, I've done really well with that early season.
Usually by September fourth, I have an opportunity at a
(19:14):
good herd bowl.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah. How many cams do you run on ELK?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I think I got about I think I had fifteen
out last year, about fifteen, and I'm running reconises and
bare boxes now, so I get a lot of picks
before having to change the batteries. As long as bears
don't hit them, my cameras will take almost all winter long.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Oh yeah, what kind of batteries are you using?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Lithium energizers?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Okay? And then what size SD cards are.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
You Yeah, I'm putting thirty twos or sixty fours and
everything now. Yeah, thirty twos used to fill up before
the batteries would die with the other cameras, but now
I think I can run sixty fours. Those are conics.
They take ten batteries and they last forever.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Okay. Yeah, I know some of my older cameras that
you couldn't put nothing, But you know the biggest you
could put in as a thirty two. Yeah, exactly hard,
which is frustrating sometimes sure, yeah, I had to play
with like settings like Okay, how often can I this
does this thing need to take a picture? You know,
instead of every you know, ten seconds, you know, every
three minutes or whatever, which kind of sucks, especially like
(20:22):
during September, because you get a bulk that just chases
through the area real quick on a cow and you
made that may have been your only chance to get
a shot of him, you know, it's they're so quick
on the draw.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Sometimes, yeah, one hundred percent. You got to look through
every pick, and you can't just look through the thumbnails.
You got to look at the background because you miss
a lot of those. Especially I keep everything on one
minute delay, but usually in September, if I'm going through
the area, I will change them to ten or thirty seconds,
just through the rut, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, I've a lot of times I'll like to put
one camera on the main main spot where I want
him to focus, and then like the trail leading to it,
I'll put one on video mode or something, and man,
it seems like I'll pick some I'll pick bulls up
that I never got on the other camera, and vice versa,
like you'll never see them on video. But but then
(21:11):
sometimes you'll see one on video you never saw on
the other camera, so it's kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I agree with that completely.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
So back to shed hunting. I'm seeing you out with
your dogs. You got labs, you're hunting sheds with?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yep? I have two males and a female.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Okay, what kind of dogs you run?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
For?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Cats? Walker?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Hounds? Mostly? I've got a couple of plots, but walkers
are my dogs of choice.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Okay, So male or female lab? Which which do you
see like one like better than the other? Or do
you prefer like a male dog to a female dog?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Man, I prefer males. I know they're a pain with sniffing,
you know, and pain on everything, but I don't. I
like my males, and I'm the same way with hounds though.
I just like my male dogs better. But yeah, my
both my lab I have two black male labs and
a yellow female, and both those males are they put
the female to shame, and she looks good and she
(22:10):
finds sheds and everything. I just feel like she doesn't
use her nose as much as they do.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Right, do you think? So she's more of a sight
so she's looking for sheds with her eyes and the
boys are sniffing more.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yep, you can tell. You can watch her shed hut
with her eyes. And one thing you can one reason
you can tell is when they're using their nose, they're
moving a lot slower. When they're just running with their eyes,
they run full speed, and she's full speed everywhere.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Oh yeah, So did you train your dogs or did
you like half and half or would.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
You so my very first one I bought, my first two,
my male and my female I bought started at four
months old. So basically they know the command search, they
like to chew on horns, but they're not really finished,
you know. So I got them both out of Antler
Dogs and Missouri from Roger c. And the guy's a
heck of a dog trainer, and uh yeah, I just
(23:03):
bought two started ones that way and I finished them up.
And then this last one I did it. I trained
him moment.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
So so I've seen guys train dogs before, and sometimes
they'll do like they take like I don't know, a
big piece of like plastic or like construction paper, and
they'll cut out like a huge antler shape, and then
they'll put an antler by it and then let their
dogs go of like seat they like to catch their attention,
(23:31):
and then you know, the antler will have you know,
the I guess there's this stuff you can look almost
like in a persprint, Like it's like a wax, like
a antler base wax. They smear on the the butd
of the antler or the base of the antler, and
then once the dog's key into like seeing like oh,
there's an antler shaped thing over there, then they take
that away and then they just the dogs find the
antlers and then they start hiding them, like I don't know,
(23:54):
like I feel like that would encourage like site searching
by by looking for those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Don't Yeah, I agree with that one hundred percent. That's
what I was going to say. So, like mine were
actually training the search command on like just little kernels
of dog food. So it's getting them to use their nose.
Like when so when you go get a dog from
Roger and Missouri takes you in his little classroom and
he teaches you how they you know, teach him to
use their nose, and they teach bomb dogs and you know,
(24:22):
you know, drug dogs the same way. They teach them
the search command. And then they change whatever they're searching for. So,
like my guy used it pieces as a dog food
and it gets them using their nose and you know,
climbing around and have to find it. And then you know,
it's reward mineor all reward based training. So when they
do good, you give them a tree to pet them up,
you know, and you know they're you can't really be
(24:44):
that hard on them, they're you know, it's just it's
better to give them a reward than it is to
yell at him when they're doing something wrong, you know
what I mean. And I think a lot of mine
where my first dog was trained in cut corn fields
where you have the cornstock stick up everywhere, so they
had to use their nose because everything looks like an antler.
(25:04):
So I think that's a better way to train them
than yeah, like you just said, kind of leaning towards
using their eyes more. If they're in a you know,
a cut cornstock field where everything looks like an antler,
they have to use their nose.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah. Do you have any other experience with other breeds
of dogs and you have any buddies or anybody that
uses like let's say, a blue healer or no or something.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I don't. But the guy I bought mine from him,
he did. He had I think it was a bulldog
or a pit bull train and another different breed. And
that's the same guy I got my first lab from,
and no I haven't. I think one thing that labs
obviously love to retrieve. Obviously they're easy to train. I
think that's two of the reasons it's good for him.
(25:47):
They may not have the best nose, but they definitely have,
you know, a good nose for hunting. The hard part
about labs is antlers are boring. You know, a ball bounces,
a bird, flies, deer run. The hard part is keeping
them interested in a horn and not letting them go
out in the woods and flush grouse, chase ducks, run deer.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I think that's the hard part, is keeping them more
interested in a horn. So when they bring me one,
you know as a young dog, you know, you give
them a treat, pet them up, let them know they
did good, and then you know, throw it out there
and make them fetch it a few more times, and
just keep them interested in the horn like the horn
does something, rather than just sit there. You know. I
think that's the best way to explain it balls bounce,
(26:28):
you know, Like I said, birds fly, everything's more exciting
than an antler. Naturally, they like to chew on them
because they smell more like a bone, you know, and
they like the way it feels on their teeth. But
to actually go find them, you have to keep them,
you know. Interested.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah. I worked with my old lab that had passed
away here a couple of years ago. I worked with
him a lot when he was a pup to try
to get him to do sheds, and I didn't give
him any toys other than a shed antler, like from
the time we got him, and he loved antlers, and
he would fetch him and stuff like when we'd go
shed hunting, then I don't know, maybe we're in the
(27:04):
wrong spot probably where we probably get already got picked over.
But every now and then he'd find one. But sometimes
we would go camping, we'd just be sitting around the
fire and then here he'd come and he'd had a shed.
He'd just go grab one from somewhere bringing into camp.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
So yeah, I feel like I love that up at
camp when they just bring you on you don't know existed.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, yeah, like, and sometimes it's just like an old
you know, chalk, like, hey, wow, good, fine, where did
you find that thing? So I feel like, you know,
they they're driven to do it, you know. And I
let all my dogs play with play with sheds, and
they really prefer those to chew on those. Then a
lot of other things and even bones, like giving an
(27:43):
old alko boone or something. They'll chew the crap out
of that thing for a while, but eventually it's they
always go back to that shed antler mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah. I think that they. I don't know what it
is that draws them to It's got to be the
scent and the smell. One thing that people have the
miss conception of. I think they think that it's a
lot easier for a dog to find a fresh one
because they're trying to smell the actual deer scent on
the button of the horn, or the blood or the
wax ring on it. And I don't think, you know,
(28:10):
that's not always true. I'm sure that that horn, when
it freshly falls off, has that deer sent there and
puts off more scent than a horn that has been
out there a week and washed off. But like old horns,
like you were saying, the chalky, the green, the ones
that start to stink, those are the ones the dog's
really fine. Like, my dog doesn't miss an old horn
though we're on three four hundred yards, because they can
smell it from that far away and they'll bring it
(28:31):
back to you.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, I think. Also, I'm not a dedicated shed hunter,
and probably to disservice my dogs. Like you know, it,
probably could have had great shed dogs had I like
took them out all the time. But it seemed like
that was always a whenever I was doing this. It
was a tough time with kids, sports and whatever else.
You know, it's a busy time year, and I worked
(28:53):
a job that was really busy that time year. But
nowadays I have no excuse other than I just need
to get out there more.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, it is one hundred percent the time you put
into the dog, for sure. Even the guy that I
got my first one from Roger, he told me, you know,
you gotta almost take them every day. The more you
use them, the more their nose works. Just like hound dogs.
It's the same thing. Their nose kind of just goes
dead on them if they're not being used much. Right,
How I got into it originally was I'm a hunt
(29:21):
guy obviously, and was laid off every March in February
right after cat season, and I never had anyone to
shed hunt with. My buddy's always at nine to five jobs,
and you know, I never had anyone to go with.
So that's why I bought my first one. And you know,
within the first few years he got really good because
that's all we did from February tomorrow. You know, the
end of March was just shit hunt.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, it's pretty hard to hard to beat it. A
good companion dog, you know that's in the woods. Like, man,
they're such good they're just such good company, and they
don't talk back, and they're just game, like you want
to go over here? Heck yeah, they want to go
over there. They're just like they're like the ultimate hunting buddy.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah. And when they bring you the hornback, it goes
in your pile, not your best friends, you know, with
your best friend.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Right, you match up a set, you know, not oh.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Man, there's no fighting over it.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah. You don't have to trade any other good ones
to exactly to make the set. That's that's fun. Yeah.
How many sheds do you think to your average do
you say, do the dogs add to your your shed
antlerge average that you guys bring home.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I think the best, uh you know, my best years.
I think we go about fifty to fifty. It just
seems like they find more older ones and I'll pick
up more of the fresher ones. I don't try to
take multiple dogs at a time because it seems like
they just want to mess with each other, follow each
other around. If I take so my old one, now
he's thirteen, so he's really slowing down. My good years
(30:47):
were you know two, I think one nine, two d
and twenty horns one year two hundred and twelve. Those
are the good years. I'm not finding quite that many anymore.
But man, there's so much more competition now. It's in
North Idaho. You got obviously competition. You got way less
animals than we used to have. So it's it's really
tough training a dog now. I've been. I got a
(31:09):
couple buddies that want to get into it now, and
I told them I just don't think it's the right
time to train a dog in North Iido too. We
get some of our deer and oak numbers back.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah you know, yeah, good point, good point. How do
you keep track of your dogs while you're hunting with them,
so that the shed dogs so they don't run off
and get eaten by wolves do. They stay pretty pretty
close to you.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So my thirteen year old these really good. He'll range
out to like four hundred yards to grab a horn.
But I keep the garment the same system I'm running
on my hound dogs. I run on them. And it
wasn't ever because I was afraid of losing them or
they go too far won't find me. It was nothing
like that. It's just if they find one side of
a big set, you want to see where they pick
that up because a dog doesn't register, oh the other
(31:53):
side'es there. I got to run right back to there
and get that other side. You know, maybe my thirteen
year old would, but I know my young dogs are
just going to go looking somewhere else, you know. Sure,
So you see, you can tell right on the map
where they stopped at shows they sat down or stopped,
and then you just go to that point and start calming.
You know, you can see where they picked it up
from on them. Oh yeah, so that really helps out
(32:15):
big time. That's a game changer. When I started running
satellite collars on the shed dogs.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Oh yeah, that's that's really, really, really smart. I wondered
about that, which leads to another question. How big of
an elk antler can one of those dogs pack back?
Let's say they got a big old six point it's heavy, heavy,
horned bowl like and it's steep brushy country. How far
will will those seem kind of like packing for a
(32:40):
while and struggle or maybe abandon.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Them or no, My mails, they got so much drive
they won't give up. If they can't get it out
from underneath the blowdown or a tree, they will just
stay there. And then I'll eventually I'll just stare at
the collar and make sure they stay there, and I'll
walk to them. But my thirteen year old, I'll grab
a twelve pound thirteen pound elk corn and he will
carry it as far as he can. Wow, And I
mean he'll be exhausted when he gets their wagon's tail.
(33:04):
But I try to cut to him as fast as
I can when I know they're struggling, you know, just
because you don't want to tire them out either, you know,
and make them lose interest with fighting with a horn.
But those two males, they'll carry any size horn they
can get in their mouth. But my female, she'll pick
up a five point carry at two feet, spit it out,
just stare at me telling me to come get it.
You know. She definitely doesn't carry him like they do.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, well, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
One thing that I learned too from my guy is
when they go through the teething when they're real young.
He told me they lose interest in horns for a
couple of months when they when they're teething because it
hurts their teeth, and he wasn't kidding, And after those
couple of months they go right back to an antler.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Really okay, yeah that makes sense. I kind of see
that with my pupp that like he shied kind of
well he was teething, he kind of shied away from
hard stuff. But yeah, exactly starts shredding pillows and crap
like y yeah, love that stuffed animals and stuff. Yeah, yeah,
that that's really cool. What is your best tip if
(34:10):
you were to like give someone a tip for training
shed dogs.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Basically, probably number one is obviously just being patient. Don't
get mad at them. You know, you got to keep
them into it, give them rewards, pet them up and
I would use I don't know, you brought up the
you know, the antler scent stuff that you can put
on horns or put on stuff. I stayed clear of
all that stuff. I froze fresh horns, is what I did.
(34:36):
I wouldn't touch them with my hands. I froze fresh horns,
so you get the wax ring and the flood and
that stuff stays on there. And then when I threw
them out in the woods to trade them, you know,
I would use rubber gloves. I wouldn't walk near it.
And a lot of times I would do it the
day before, like in the rain, and then let it
rain overnight, so I knew there was no human scent
anywhere around them. And I think that helps out a lot,
(34:57):
because you know, when you're sitting there playing fetch with
a dog, obviously you got your human scent on it,
and they're they're saliva, you know, they smell all that stuff.
The number one thing is not have any of that
kind of stuff on it. And just like it fell
off the deer's head, you know, or elk's head.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Oh yeah, that's that's really good. Have you ever tried
to have them track blood trails like I haven't, Okay,
I was just wondering. As a as a guide an outfitter,
then you probably have clients sometimes make not the most
perfect shot and didn't didn't know if they were there's
any if you've ever used a blood tracking.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Dog to no. So like with obviously with our bears,
we just use our hounds, you know, and we'll want
them on a leash to retrieve them, but we never
with with deer and olt. Well, I don't even they
just kind of legalized it, didn't they for us for
to track deer and elk with dogs. When I was younger,
we couldn't do.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
It, right, Yeah, I think that, yeah, you have you
have to be on a leash or whatever.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah. Yeah, they've changed over the last few years.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah. I did a podcast with a guy here a
month or so ago, Matt gagn And he he works
with a blood trail of dog dog and and and
he's in part of an organization that that's they train,
they compete, they promote, and then I think they even
have like a website on the on the internet. You
can go log in or not log in. You just
(36:18):
go to it and like look for people and within
that organization, within your area, and he said, shoot, guys
will drive six hours sometimes to to Let's say, you
like hit an help and you wanted to have some
help find it with a dog. Then then guys will
drive six hour hours to come up and help. So
it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I know, it's really big in Oklahoma and Kansas. Now,
well the dogs got big and now it's the drone thing.
Now they're using drones to find their deer for them.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Oh yeah, those thermal drones. Those are crazy crazy. Speaking
about thermals, that's kind of a big topic these days.
What what's your take on those thermal like just binoculars, monoculars.
(37:08):
I know they're legal right now in Idaho, you know,
but I know Washington's not. What's your take on that? Man?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I kind of go both ways. I don't own any.
Every one of my friends has one, and you know,
shows me cool videos and stuff. I think it's cool,
but I think it's getting outlawed soon. Honestly, I don't
think it'll be legal very long.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like you say, it's it's cool,
but sometimes I like to cheer for the animal, you know,
the deer they help whatever, and it's like, yeah, you
gotta look, you gotta give them a chance, you know.
But but even so, I've been around it a little bit,
and you know you can you can spot deer and
elk with them. But that doesn't mean you're gonna kill one.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
But yeah, I don't. I didn't run out and buy
one like everyone else did, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Well, they're expensive. It's a big investment to to to
risk having it be outlawed. And you're like, okay, well
now what, yeah exactly, I guess scouting maybe during the
off season. Maybe they're legal. I'm not sure what.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah, Honestly, I don't know. There's so much great even
with the drones. You don't know if it is it
legal to find hunting season? Can you not? You know,
if you read the law.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Book, it's confusing, right, I know. Anytime we ever use
like a drone for those cool drone shots for videos
and stuff, it'll be like, all right, after we're all
done hunting, we're tagged out, you know, we're no longer hunting,
and then we'll fly the drone just in case there's
ever ever any kind of like issue or whatever. And honestly,
film permit, we got to, you know, we always do
(38:32):
things right. We got to go through film permits to
the for Service, and they're expensive, and if you add
a drone on there, then it's adds another layer of expense.
So so sometimes if you know, I hate to give
away my secret, but if you go on online, there's
all these different video and photo companies that have stock video,
stock stock photos, and you can you can buy download
(38:54):
these these videos of areas that looked similar or whatever
to where you're hunting to where you can have those
and not have to worry about the extra expense of
a drone license or pilot or whatever. They usually cost
you more money anyway with your gut your camera guy
if he's a drone guy.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
So yeah, it's crazy how many people don't know about
the Forest Service permits for filming, and you know, you
tell them like cause they come into camp like yeah,
I'm gonna do this for my YouTube channel. It's like
you gotta pay. They get you fifty bucks a day,
don't they for filming?
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I think, yeah, it's something like that. It used to be.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah, I used to do a lot of hunting shows
and then we kind of tapered down on them now yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, well they say you know, it's this much a day,
but then they can charge an application fee, and some
national forests will be like, you know, it'll be a
five hundred dollars fee, and other places it won't be
any fee at all. It's just weird. And then some
national forests they're just like, you don't need to permit
for what you're doing, and they'll cite some some you know,
article seven blah blah, you know, some article in the
(39:55):
rule book, and they won't even charge it because you're
not really impacting the environment by a couple of guys
going hunting with a camera. But there's been some new
legislation come through. I think it's called part of the
Explorer Act or something to where it's not required to
have a like a big expensive film permit. And then
(40:17):
I wonder with all this for service cutbacks, you know, man,
it's like pulling teeth to get one anyway with a
full staff for a service. Now that there's they've had
all these jobs eliminated, a cutback or whatever, I don't
even know if you could get one. There's nobody at
a desk to to to reply even so I don't
know how that's going to play into this fall. I
(40:38):
guess we'll kind of see.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
But yeah, I think we're going to experience a bunch
of that here coming up, because you've got to get
your bait permits. You know, we got to do all
of our use stuff in the beginning of the season,
and if there's not a buoys, everything's going to take longer.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Oh yeah, like film permits. We kind of figure out
where we're gonna l hunt or whatever by the time,
you know, by let's say June, and what's June, Well,
that's the beginning of fire season, or it's fire season
in some other state. Let's say. You know these and
love for service folks travel around for that, you know, Yeah,
they do to assist in the fires. And I think
(41:13):
that's a lot of our issues. Like a lot of
folks are just out of the office during that time
year they're busy with fires and whatever else. So yeah,
be an interesting year for sure. So ELK, are you
a call guy or are you a spot in stock guy?
Speaker 2 (41:35):
No, I'm a call guy. I'm probably blowing calls when
I shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Be, Like you, right right right, I probably I probably
do it too much. But the kind of country I know,
you hunt a lot of the same kind of stuff
I do. And man, I just probably wouldn't kill any
ELK if I didn't call.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, man, I have a really good luck calling. I
have a really good luck calling for myself. I think,
are you know there I hunt are where my honey
holes are? They're they're not real call shy. They're more
shy of wolves and predators than are people. So I
think I have that advantage. But no, I'm I'm definitely
a huge call guy. I think I've called in every
bull that I've shot pretty sure.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yeah. Yeah. If it wasn't for calls, i'd probably have
only killed maybe one or two elk. Yeah. So, and
it's funny like you dive into calling ELK in different
opinions on ELK, and some guys will say, oh, never
chuckle at a bowl because that tells him this, and
never col call it a bowl only calf call, and
(42:36):
only do this one certain bugle at a at a bowl.
What what's your take on calling in ELK?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
I mean, can you My My one take is only
chuckle if you can. But no, I think I call
in a lot of bulls with chuckles because there's not
a lot of people that can do it, and I don't.
I think it fires them up where I am. I mean,
I don't use it even as a last resort. I'm
I mean, I've watched you hung enough on your you
know your shows. I do a lot of calling. I'm aggressive,
(43:06):
you know. When I get in there, I get in
there quick. I think a lot of times they're not
used to people coming in as on them as fast.
So when I come in like I do, loud and fast,
you know, then they think I'm another Elk. And you know,
a lot of times I get them close shots. You know,
I'm close and personal nice bulls because of the I'm
definitely not one to shy away from a chuckle or
(43:26):
a bugle on anything. I try try everything really.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
So you don't just elm or fud it through the
woods like nice and quiet, like like you're slipping on
white tails. You're like breaking brush and just moving hard
and fast.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Going over blowdowns like I heard elk is you know, yeah,
I'm not. I mean there is, don't get me wrong.
You know there's times when you need to be quiet.
There's times when you're guys behind you call them and
you need to slip in. But when I'm calling for myself,
and I'm the one running in a lot of times
i'm drawn, you know, coming around a tree and they're
already standing there. I'm pretty I'm pretty aggressive. I don't
(44:02):
think I would have the trophy room I have if
I wasn't in the country we hunt, you know, that
same thing, that thick brush country, you know what I Meantime,
I'll run in, you know, have them at twenty where
I can't see him for an hour, and then finally
just get fed up, draw my bow and run in.
And sometimes they'll stand there and stare long enough for
you to get a shot on a three ten twenty bowl.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
You know. Yeah, they're like, what is that?
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Nobody's dumb enough to run in on us right here?
You know? Yeah? Yeah, so very good luck calling.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, I know you've hunted New Mexico a fair amount.
How much different is elk hunting in New Mexico versus Idaho?
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Man, it's you know a lot of fun days, a
lot of bugling. You hear a lot more bugles down there,
but every bugle you hear is running away from you.
Typically I'm not the only one. Yeah, I will admit
those elk are harder to call it's not. It's night
and day. I get down there. I'm so used to
calling everything in in Idaho, and I get on there,
and those elk just they'll scream and they answer every call.
(45:04):
But they're they're moving away When it sounds like they're
coming in and getting closer, Nope, that's them moving up
out of the draw on the next ridge. That's why
they got louder. It's tough hunting down there too. For
how many elk there are anyway?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
Yeah, do you find once they go to bed, do
they stick in that same bed for very long? Do
they stay there all day like Northido elk do, or
they they move?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
They move? Well, okay, so let me let me say this.
The last time I was there, which was the toughest
hun I had, and I was in the Hila, I
think people move them around all day, more so than
the elk wanting to get up and move. There was
a lot of hunters on the same mountain last time
I was hunting in the HeLa. You're talking about one
hundred and fifty tag holders trying to hunt the same
(45:50):
you know, oh man acres. Geez. Yeah, that's tough. So
I think our elk and and and Idaho are a
lot more predictable to me, you know, but that's just
because we've hunted them our whole lives.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Probably, Yeah, And I think I think they kind of
stick tight to bed a lot longer for us in
New Mexico. Man, you would we would put them things
to bed and be like, all right, we're gonna let them. Okay,
this is ten am. We're gonna wait till like twelve,
like those winds change, you get, let them get you know,
all settled in, and then we'll make a move. And sometimes,
like more times than not, by waiting a couple hours,
(46:27):
we go over there and they're long gone. They've just toot.
They're just like.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
I know. What's tricky is a lot of times there
you think they're bedding, but they're not. They move ten
to fifteen miles, you know what I mean. It's like
not just over the ridge, they moved ten miles. Oh yeah,
you know which we're in Idaho. I think that our
are really you know, rugged country keeps them from going
so far, you know what I mean, Right between betting
(46:53):
and feeding.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Yeah, And I think ideal betting and feeding areas are
a lot closer together in Idahovas is New Mexico. Maybe
they're like, all right, we have a water tank over here,
but we really like this place over here to bed
and they just like cover so much ground.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Yeah, it's just it's like, yeah, if you laid Idaho
flat with a rolling pin, I'm sure elk would move
a lot further. It's just they definitely seem to go
five miles on a straight line there. Like you said,
you think they're bed and then then all of a
sudden they're just gone gone.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
One thing that was crazy we found out is the
sound travel so much better in New Mexico. So we
would be like, oh man, there's just bulls on the
other side of this ridge over here, and we'd walk
to the other side of the ridge only to figure
out that there's still like a half a mile away
over onto the next across this huge drainage over on
the next you know ridge. It's like, holy, like, how
(47:44):
am I so far off? But it just like seemed
like the sound travels well, like you say, it's a
lot flatter, but there is some topography in certain areas,
But those little trees, those pinion juniper seedars, they don't
seem to like stifle the sound like bugles like they
do in big timber country up north. Have you kind
of yes?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I agree, one hundred percent. I think Idaho so thick
we hear a bugle, we know it's in you know range,
you know it's probably a lot closer than you think
a lot of times even. Yeah, but yes, I agree
with that. Down there sound carry is a long way,
especially when they're higher than you and you know they're
you know, going up over the canyons.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Yeah. Do you are you a gutless method guy or
you like an old school like these hatchets and split
him up into four being ginormous quarters.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
No, man, I don't use anything but an outdoor edge
and ife, and I'm gutless on pretty much everything nowadays.
I take the inners out through the last room there
and I try not to get anything. If I got
to go back and get pack mules far away or
something I had to do that, I'll get them. But
most of the time, if we're packing on our backs there,
the mules are pretty close. Ill. Uh, gutless.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah. How many mules do you guys run?
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Man? I had about around thirty. We've had a rough winner.
I think we just lost four of old age. So
oh man, we're gonna be looking for some new ones.
We get a lot of years out of them. Man,
we'll use them till they're you know, low to mid thirties.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
So if we get them at five six years old,
we get them, you know, a lot of use out
of them.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
So are your elk camps? Are those all like a
pack in like with with stock?
Speaker 2 (49:22):
So everything used to be used to be all spike camps,
wall tank camps. The way the wolves hit us so
bad in the back country, everything is done out of
our base camp. Now, Okay, our elk numbers are better
closer to the roads than they are in the back country.
I mean, you go way back when I was a
kid where it was really killer, and you know, you know,
nineteen ninety eight, you know, ninety nine, two thousand, there's
(49:43):
not even animals back there anymore. The wolves hit us
so hard, and so the stuff that was great back
then is desolate now. And you know, it's kind of crazy.
I think they'lk stick to where the fishermen all are
all summer. I think the fishermen keep the wolves.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Away from the wolves are scared of fly rods.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, that's it's funny you say that, Like all of
my hunting spots that like, the further you go back,
that will like less elky get into and the closer
to civilization in town you get then there's there's more help.
There's just more animals.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Yeah, And it kind of sucks because a lot of
the people you know that want to book a hunt
stall of the old school mentality they need to be
in the back country. The further back, the better the
hunt is. But I and I have to go to
the shows explaining to them it's not that way in
northern at least in Idaho anymore.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
It's yeah, yeah, and there's something romantic about going to
the back country and staying in a wall tant way
back and horses and mules and you know, just that's
that's American dream like for the quintessential elk hunt. You know,
you know, it's a lot less romantic to hunt out
of a truck every day. And some people even thumb
(50:54):
their nose out a little bit like, ah, you guys
aren't true back country elkhunty. Okay, all right.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yeah, I do it all. I'll do whatever it takes
to kill elk.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yeah, yeah, me too. I'm the same boat you see. Guys.
It's funny too, Like I'll talk to folks who'll go
to Colorado. You know, they've got such you know, a
lot of wilderness country and a lot of really great
trail systems, and they'll be like, I'm gonna pack in
seven miles or eight miles with my backpack hunt, you know,
and we're gonna stay there at ten days. And man,
(51:24):
they'll go back there and they're like, man, I didn't
we were back there for like seven days and didn't
see an elk. You know, they kind of just go
all in on that instead of that one spot. That
one spot. It's like, man, you just don't know what
happened the week before. There could have been another big
group of people that shot elk and blew them all
out of there, you know. Or or maybe there's just
a lot of blue haired weirdos backpacking, you know in
(51:47):
the summertime, a lot of hikers. Yeah, no doubt. You
heard a lot of crazy stories about about all the
three hikers. You know, you'd be begging a bowl or something.
You hear something look on the trail and there's a
here's a guy or a gall and spandex, you know,
walking along and it's like, what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (52:05):
Yeah, my buddy, one of my best friends, lives in
Denver and they all cut a Colorado of a lot
of years, and he's got some good stories about hikers
screwing up his hunts.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Yeah, I was. I was in central Idaho el hunt
in one time and had this bull going and man,
he was just kind of hung up, but I was.
I was like, man, any minute, he's gonna like break
loose and come in. And I heard the weirdest noise.
And I was off of this old logging road, you know,
and I heard the weirdest noise behind me. It's like,
what the hell is that noise? I turned around and
this dude on a mountain bike and he was wearing
(52:34):
bright like fluorescent blue like spandex tops and bottoms. He
had a helmet on and everything it comes zip and
just like through on a mountain bike. Of course, the
bull spooked out of there. I'm like, what the hell, what,
what's the what are the chances of that happening?
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Yeah, definitely less than northern Idaho.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Well, most of the trails up there, you can't get
it by sickle on them anyway, let's the dirt biker's
cut it out and seemed like the for service never
cut trails anymore like these two.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Yeah, no, we cut all our own trails. They don't
do anything in our area anymore. That's why when I
run into hunters, you know, and they're asking me this,
and I'm like, I cut every trail here. There wouldn't
be a trail here if you didn't, you know, if
I wasn't out here all summer.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's brutal. It's brutal. Well man, thanks
so much for coming on the podcast. And know I
had to twist your arm just a little bit to
get you on here, but but I appreciate it. We're
where can folks find your outfitting website? Uh?
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Yeah, just go to the website www dot Russell Pond
Outfitters dot com and we have the new website there,
or you can find us on face, Facebook or Instagram.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
Okay, and then your personal social media account.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Yeah, Chris Cabral just C h R S C A
B R A L. And yeah, I'm the head guy
pretty much operator of everything.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Yeah, head cook and bottle washer and everything. Huh yeah, do.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
It too much to cook. I away from the cook.
Oh that's good.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
You may not want to eat it.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
No, I can cook, I just choose not to.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Yeah that's good. So well, thanks again for coming on
and appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
Man, all right, no problem. Hope to see you soon.
Get the hell hunt together sometime.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yeah, that'd be awesome. I love the country you're in
and man it's I've hunted around it a little bit,
and uh, yeah, someday it'd be really fun to come
up and go do this and do an elk hunt.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah, for sure. So I have to work it out, yep.
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