July 10, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode, Jason sits down with Kyle and Steven Bradshaw, the innovators behind the Kyven Bugle Tube, the first truly collapsible, full-size bugle. They dive into the origins of the idea and the long road from prototype to full-scale production. Jason shares his perspective on recognizing a great idea when he sees one, and the humility it takes to partner with someone else and bring their vision to life. From design and production challenges and trade-offs to what the future holds for Kyven, this conversation is a must-listen for hunters, gear junkies, and creative minds alike.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome back to another episode of Cutting into This and
today I'm sitting down with Kyle and Stephen Bradshaw, the
inventors of what I honestly believe is one of the
most innovative ELK calling tools in recent years.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
In the KIVN Beagle Tube.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
If you haven't seen it yet, this is the first,
in my opinion, truly collapsible but still full sized Beegle
tube compresses down to about the size of an al
gene bottle, making it a dream for all of us
that are minimalist ELK hunters or guys just running and
gunning in the in the rough country. And as a
call designer myself, I'm always looking for great ideas, and
sometimes that means recognizing when somebody else has maybe one
(00:45):
nailed down or one a little better than I've come
up with. And I'm also a user of all this gear,
right so I look at it and try to figure
out how it worked with what we've got going on,
and I knew right away it was special. And it
takes a little humility to admit that, you know, as
a call designer, you know Dirk brought this idea to
me on the heels of the twenty twenty four Western
(01:09):
Hunt and so today we're going to talk about where
this idea came from, the struggles with it, how to
get it mass produced, how we came in contact with
these guys, and uh, you know this tube launch three
days ago, and kind of what it took to get
it from where they took it and to where we
got it.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So welcome to the show, Kyle and Stephen.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Thanks Jason for having Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Go ahead, no, go ahead, Yeah, no, We're we're very excited.
And I like that at the end there, how you mentioned,
you know, where it first started to where we've taken
it today and attributing to all of your success, Like,
it is so great to have the Phelps brand back
us on this product. And apart from you know, everything
(01:52):
else that we've been working on, this was like our
staple product that we wanted Hunters to use and we
knew that working with you this thing was going to
make it all the way way. So we're really excited
about that.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, and uh, to be completely transparent, you know, there
were there were a few people starting to use it
and I had caught win you know, anything that's new
in the honting industry. You start to get pictures and
what and I'm like, I'm gonna root against these guys.
I'm gonna root against some hard right, Like I don't
want It's a good idea, but I hope it doesn't
get any legs. And you know, and a little back history,
you know, you see things are three D printed.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You're like, well, that's not sustainable or not profitable.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
You're like, you're like, you're trying to come up with
all these ideas on why this thing's not going to
take off. And at the same time, I'm scared to
death that somebody maybe have a better idea, you know,
has a better idea than I do.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That's funny. And you know when people say that, they'll say,
it's just three D printed. And I've always hated that
term because, as you know, a new designer, when you're prototyping,
that's it's just the most feasonable way to go. And
we didn't have the means to you know, injection mold
or manufacture it any other way. So we were just
three D printing. And that was something that when we
(02:56):
started talking with you, We're like, Okay, this guy knows
how to create product.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Yeah, three D printing is not easy.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
It's a you could dive into it, and it is
a lot to it.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So whatever, yeah, yeah, no, And that's not a dig
like we do tons of three D printing. I've just
always felt and we've learned through this, like you know,
we don't we're not going to talk numbers here anything,
but you see like where the margins start to come from,
and how you can like peel this thing back to
a point where it can be a high production profitable
because I would be lying to say that ninety nine
(03:26):
percent of what I produce here doesn't come into three
D print in some form or fashion. You know, anything
we've did in silicone. You know, they can print three
D silicon, and they can three D print titanium. They
can three D print all of these things now. And
so that wasn't a dig at you guys. It was
the idea that if it's going to always be production
three D printed, it's going to be rough because I
you know, having three D printers in the past and
(03:48):
and ordering stuff from them just you know, time on
the machines and unless you're a mass mass produced So
now that that was just more of a joke and
this as Dirt came home from that Western hunt and said, hey,
these guys are pretty good guys.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It's got good back pressure, it's got good.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Sound, and I'm like, all right now, now this, you know,
the relationship kind of changes one ady from rooting against
You're like, hey, let's see if we can get this
thing to work together.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah, no, that's fun. And you know, kind of a
backstory on that. We'd worked on it for two years
before we'd let anyone see it, and that was just
between Steve and I. I was going to Utah State
at the time and they allowed for students to use
their three D printers and wed I was printing something
for my brother that he was working on, and Steven
(04:31):
wanted to get into three D modeling and I'll let
him get in on that. But we started kind of sampling,
just smaller pieces there, and then we got the courage
to buy our own, which was an Ender was it an.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Ender V two three pro?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, And Steven kind of tell him how you got
into modeling, Well, you.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Came to me and said, hey, I'm gonna we're gonna
buy this printer. It's going to be at your house
and you're gonna become the editor, And I said, uh, okay,
so I did. We put it together other one night
and we started tinkering with it. I think I remember
the first time we ran at it. I think the
gears grinded and it made a weird noise. I think
I stayed up all night because I was worried I
was going to catch the house on fire.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
I didn't know what to expect. So but yeah, it
was just.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
A lot of a lot of tinkering and a lot
of learning as you go, a lot of YouTube and
for the modeling side, I was fortunately I work as
a like a manufacturing engineer for a while, and uh
I was learning how to three D model as like
a work goal, and so we were able to kind
of talk and I was able to kind of implement
(05:33):
some designs and kind of learn as I go with this.
I always kind of laugh because a lot of the
design was made. You know, I'd be sitting at work
and I'm I'm learning and I'm I'm modeling.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
But my boss would walk by and look at my computer.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
And good job, you know, good for taking on a
skill and a work goal, and just I said, yeah, absolutely,
I'm I'm taking this all the way.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Meanwhile, I'm making a bugle tube.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So yeah, there's a lot of similar beginnings there were.
You know, I just designed roads, you know, interstates and
bridges and stuff, which wasn't near I find what you
guys do a lot more complex where it's more mechanical.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
But it frustrates me that.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, but I learned a lot of my drafting to
get some of my more simple parts done just the
same way through my cad at worked, but it gave
me just enough skills to be able to design some
of this stuff. But yeah, so let's jump into the origin. Like,
we're all hunters, we all want new gear, we all
buy the fanciest new gear.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
But where did this idea come from?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Originally like the very the very first mustard seed that
grew this thing into what it is now.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So I grew up in Salt Lake and we'd only
ever hunted meal deer, grown up. Our opportunities in Utah
for over the counter elk just aren't super great, but
we'd had We have some elk. We have an Elkurd
on our wall, sets front range, and I'd set up
some trail cameras and there were legal at the time
during the season, and I was looking for meal there
(07:04):
and I kept getting the six point bowl on there
and I turned on video mode and he'd still be
in that same meadow. And I come to work and
I'm showing the guys because they were all from a
smaller town campus just right here, and they were all
big ELK guys. They're like, I don't know why you're
here at work in September when you have a bowl
in an area that's stuck there on some cows, Like
what are you doing? And so I'm like, ah, you know,
(07:24):
and I've watched some YouTube videos, but I just didn't
know anything about ELK. And so I went to cal
Ranch and forty dollars ELK tag and I bought a
Ucci Mama, so I it's a little bit of a
shout out doing a Huci Mama. Of sense. Then grown
from the UCI Mama and realized that having being able
to use a diaphram or some of these other tools
are way more effective when you're ready for the shot
(07:47):
and you're in the zone, you know. But I'd gone
up there and I'm standing that meadow and I and
I'm like, this is like a dog toy. This is
not making any sense. And I heard a bugle and
I'm like, that's no way. So I'm standing in the
middle of this meadow and the sixth point bull comes
running out, all muddy, breathing heavy, and I was like,
oh my gosh, this is this is insane. You know,
this is awesome. And so then I went and bought
(08:08):
some diaphragms and started and started to learn. And so,
I mean, this isn't very long ago. This was twenty
seventeen nineteen, and uh, you know. From there, I went
and bought a bugle tube lost it and always wanted
that extra volume, and so I bought yours, which is
funny because Dirk doesn't know this. I talked to Dirk
(08:29):
at one of the hunting expos I mean it was
maybe twenty nineteen or something, and he had his bugler
with the gray cover on it and you had the
first light cover and he's sitting there and yeah, this,
this and that, and he sold me from some diaphragms
and I looked over. I'm like, oh, what about that one.
He goes, oh, yeah, that one's good too. I'm like, well,
I like the camera on that one. And he goes,
(08:49):
so he sells me that one, and I heard him
when I walked away. He goes, there's another one just
to the camo. Okamurmer that and but you know, and
I love the the volume that comes out of that.
But unfortunately, if you know anything about the wasass that's front,
it is so heavily populated with just recreators. I mean
it's an archery only, and they did that just because
(09:11):
of the high prevalence of people. And so I'd get
up there and I'd first, like you know, I'd hike
six miles and I'd rip a bugle and I'd sit
there and listen. Then I'd hear, hey, Dave, do you
hear that this? Don't look at ilk We're just hear that.
And I'm like, my health cutting's over for the day.
But I still got a deer tag, so maybe I
can hunt deer. And I got my spotting scope. So
I just wanted the space. I just wanted the room
(09:33):
in my pack. And you know, this was about the
same time that Steve and I were tinkering with three
D printing and we were printing some other things and
I was like, Stephen, I wonder if I could make
a bugle tube that would just you know, make it smaller.
And so his first prototype, which I'd like to share
one day with everyone, is maybe it was what ten pieces,
and yeah, it was that had a mouthpiece on it
(09:54):
and then the rest just look like one of those yeah,
like star war swords that you fling out.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Like those little cups of the kids have that backed
down flat is they got like five sections that make
them into a cup and exactly, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
All it was, and that's what it was. And then
I mean we really went from there. It was it
was fun and through the process. I mean we could
talk a long time about each in each individual Stephen,
how many did you say we had? Rev?
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Thirty two?
Speaker 5 (10:27):
I think plus that's big changes, you know, minor teams.
You don't mark those, and that's something I learned along
the way. But a lot of the tubes, you know,
we would would we'd make it and then we we
could do this, and most design manufacturing you would make
several changes and review it and then print. But the
way Kyle and I would work would make one subtle
change and let's print that sucker. So I have a
(10:49):
basement full of plastic bugle tubes that my kids will
grab and hit each other with all the time.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
So it's great, nice, nice funny.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So, uh, that first part of type A bunch of
extendable circle sections of tube. When did you guys what
led to like what we're calling our coil lock technology.
You know that the patent is actually filed around Like
when did that come into play? Like when did you
guys decide that was like a more positive system? When
(11:19):
did it come you know, when did it get decided
to make it? The three pieces? Like, tell us about
that process on. Yeah, we don't need to go through
every revision, but just kind of how we got there
and like where where the final idea came from.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, So this was I think it was twenty twenty two.
I'd gone out cunting by myself and I'd had one
of his. We called it friction fit because you would
pull the ends as tight as you could and it
would cause enough friction to stay put and when you
would go to collapse it, you'd have to push so
hard that the mouthpiece would end up shooting out. And
(11:50):
so what the first end cap, which really ended up
being one of the biggest, you.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Know, challenging pieces, is out there, right.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And you've seen, yeah, the magic. And so the first
end cap was actually looked like a crosshair to keep
the other pieces from falling out. And so that's what
I went hunting with was that, and I killed an
elk with it, and there's a little video of me
showing it. But I kind of knew that it just
wasn't like there's just well first off the root. You
(12:18):
can hear it, and I remember.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Walking you know it's yeah, it's that material in the
sunlight will warp. So we just knew right away that
three D printing is great for prototyping, but it can
never be like, at least for PLA, you can't use
it outside.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Sorry, oh you're fine. And I remember walking in on
like an elk and I was worried about it collapsing,
and I'm like, this is not with my gear, right,
you just you need to know that it's gonna you
can trust it out in the field, especially when it counts.
And so I'm like, Stephen, this thing has to lock.
And then when it's closed, I don't need it rattling.
(12:56):
It has to lock there and so and then from
then we started playing with other prototypes and we tried
some other snap fit models, but again you'd have that
you'd need that defining snap to where each piece would
go snap snap, and then it would the force to
set it down. I don't care what material you have,
it's just too loud for the type application that I'd like.
(13:18):
So so then we started playing with this this coil
lock and Steve and you can yeah, well, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
I experimented with threads and with the diameter.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
The modeling program I was using at the time wouldn't
let me put threads on it. Plus something little details
we got into was we called it, you know, the illusion,
But basically in the inside you'd have a straight and
then an angle, and so it kind of looked like
it was angled, but it wasn't. We were really excited
about it, but it was hard to get threads at
an angle. But anyways, we ended up with this coil
(13:49):
feature that we were just kind of using as a
thread and it was very subtle, very thin, but it
worked really well. And as soon as we did it,
you know, there was a bunch of prototypes where the
coil wasn't tight enough, it was too loose, and I
had to learn about offsetting it and add to fill
its and all kinds of grease and just all these
different things to try to get a coil fitment to work.
And then once you had that working and then you
(14:11):
were on threading in, it would bind all all kinds
of fun stuff. So but yeah, it was just a
coil feature that we kind of found and then we
found out how to make that coil feature lock and
tension fit tightened. And yeah, it's been quite a quite
a lot of prototypes, so we figured it out.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, and then you know those original materials you mentioned
PLA which, for those that don't know, it's a type
of plastic resin that was specifically designed for three D printing,
if my memory serves me correct, And and we'll talk
about the recognition of the idea and then how we
ultimately changed materials. But yeah, I can remember the first
prototype once Dirk said we should look into this. You
guys were open to the idea. You mentioned grease. You know,
(14:50):
I opened the first one up and my hands are
all grease. You now, yeah, like like something happened, and
then you're like, you know, the first one, we knew it.
But you know, sometimes you could overtighten them because pla.
Once again, no matter how high quality of a three
D printer, you've got their ridges and it creates like
additional friction that you you know, didn't necessarily want.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
But regardless of all of that, I was stoked about
the performance.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Like great back pressure is a guy that you know
roots myself and being a high high quality caller, a
guy that's very very picky on the back pressure. I
get very very picky about the volume I get. I said,
regardless of the grease on my hands right now, and
regardless of you know, any of these other things, regardless
that you know that it's only three D printed right now,
(15:34):
like this thing has got some legs. I'm we can
work with this. And then so that kind of leads
us to the recognition of the great idea. Right It's like, ah,
we can do this now. It's like, are these guys
that I didn't know at the time, Kyle and Steven
willing to talk to us? Are they interested in this?
Are they are they going to bring this thing out?
You know, you guys had already filed for your pat
(15:56):
and your provisional at that time, Like how do we
deal with that? Like we're not going to get into
the nuts and bolts of all of that, but I
will say I'm gonna say I wanted to do a royalty,
which would have saved me lots of years of my
life for months and hours, and we ended up, you know,
doing this contract thing and nobody needs no other details,
(16:18):
but basically, you know, coming out the other side, we're
building a legal to with Kiven's name on it. We'll
just put it that way. So the recognition of the
great idea, Dirk was fully on board. I was fully
on board. You guys were open to entertaining the idea
as long as it made quote unquote business sense for
you guys. Now let's move because with my experience and
(16:40):
my understanding of schedules, tooling everything, we're gonna have to
get into place like we're already kind of behind right
in order to release it this year. So that was
where like my concern lied at that point. And then
this this process drug out and drug out, and we
were unwilling to start spending you know, lots of money
on tooling until this was like a for sure thing.
(17:03):
We don't need to get into that as much because
it's gonna boor everybody. But I'm not a legal expert.
I don't like dealing with that side. I just want
to design cool stuff and use cool stuff and make
it the best we can. But in this process there
I do want to touch on. There's a little bit
of that humility, and anybody that knows me knows and
(17:25):
I hate being a proud guy, but I would be
lying to say, like, I'm not pretty prideful at times
in in my my know how when I'm able to
do my skill, and there was a lot of humility
in order for me to be like, yeah, you guys
got a great idea, like, let's make this happen. And
so that uncomfortable situation that I'm not good in is
where a lot of growth happens, right, And so just
(17:46):
kind of adding to the podcast a little bit of
sentimental stuff here, like when you're uncomfortable, when you don't
necessarily like it, but you're willing to get over that
is where you know, some cool stuff happens.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And Jason, I have to I don't. You don't know that,
but I was I'd gotten some advice from, you know,
some other people in the industry, and when we'd first
talked to Dirk, he was like, guys, I like it
sounds like Jason's on board. I was wondering if I
could take one of your calls right now. This is
at the expo, and he goes, you know, I think
we could jump on this quick, in a hurry, and
I'm like, okay, And so I went and talked to
(18:18):
my advice and they're like, you know, usually when someone's
in a hurry, it's you know, and see, we were
kind of like a little standoffish because I would say,
anybody and maybe you were this way at the start.
When you have like a new product or you're trying to,
you know, get a patent application, you feel like you're
being chased, and especially when you're very small, it almost
(18:40):
seems like somebody can just squish you quick. But then
we're like, we're talking to one of the big dogs,
and so let's have that conversation. And as soon as
we start talking with you, we realized Steve and I
would joke, he's just like us. He you know, he
he's a hunter, he makes movie quotes, he's funny, and
then you know he's a family man. You're constantly you know,
(19:00):
you would all right, guys, we're gonna do this, this
and that and Okay, I gotta go to basketball practice
or stuff like that. One of the very first conversations
you said was I my goal as a businessman and
in life is to not screw anyone over. And just
you saying that made us so much more comfortable through
the whole process, and since then it was I mean,
(19:20):
I didn't have any sort of stress through it.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
I hope you know not that this is where the
podcast needs to go.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
But like in the process, I'm not the old man
by any means, but like been through this for fifteen
years now, Like I just wanted to make sure that
you guys were comfortable and knew like the pros and
cons and hopefully through that process, like, hey, guys, we
can do this. This is what we're proposing, but you
should maybe think about this right And and so I
really wanted, I truly want the best for you guys.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You guys had a great idea.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
There's no sense in you know, me coming in and
make and all the money, you know, doing I wanted it.
You know, we've got our calculators to make sure margins
are where they are. Like, I wanted to take care
of everybody, and I feel like having the inventors of
this stay on board still want to be involved. Is
more important to me than me just being because then
the story turns in like oh, the big guy with
(20:17):
the money Boden idea and ran with it right where
it's like no, you guys literally and we're going to
get into this, Like you guys helped me. You guys
were my design team the whole way through this process.
Like I'm helping, I'm providing ideas, but you guys are
the ones as well, you know, sitting down in these
you know meetings, figuring out how to fix the issues,
everything that's going on, you know, as we go to
(20:38):
mass production. So to me, that teamwork is way more
important than me grabbing it running with it. And it's
it's not how I wanted to tell the story.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
And this whole deal.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I didn't want it to be like we bought an idea,
you guys got cut out and here here phelps is
like crushing the KIV and tube, you know, wanting not
I didn't do it for publicity, even though I'm telling
it on the podcast. It was very important to like
keep your guys' name on it, right, It doesn't make
sense to like wipe out Kivan and it's Phelps' transformer
tube or Phelps's coil lock, like it didn't feel right,
(21:11):
and so really wanted to make sure we did this
thing right just as much as like bring a cool
product to market.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
So yeah, that was that was important.
Speaker 5 (21:21):
Really, we were super excited when we saw that, and
we're like, also we were kind of mad because we're like, oh,
that logo is way cooler.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Than what we.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Well, that's that's so funny. And Jason, it's cool to
see your team and I've been able to work with
some of your team at the expo and uh see
you know, and I don't know if you knew this.
I was actually in a small meeting with was Sondie
and she's great, and it's just it takes a village
right to build what you've built. And when it was
(21:50):
just Steven and I, you know, we I built my
first logo just playing on a Photoshop and Stephen was
is this product started from a line? You know, and
any any feature or anything he had a YouTube and
so I kind of wanted to touch on right before
when we'd had a pretty solid prototype that I wanted
(22:10):
to maybe show some friends or take hunting and not
be hiding it all the time because I kind of
knew we had something. We were talking with my grandpa
and and with your family, you're always trying to get like, hey,
is this a good idea? You think I'm going to
be successful? And they're always like, oh, yeah, you're so great.
Everything you do is great. And so you're almost like,
am I like a kid on a trampoline who like
does a front flip? And they're like you're the best,
(22:32):
you know, And so like, is this really a good idea?
But I can't ask anyone? And so we asked my
grandpa and he goes, he's looking at it. He goes, well,
what I know of elk hunters is I know guys
will buy wafers that's covered and pissed. So if they're
willing to buy that, I'm sure they're willing to buy this.
And that got me like right, you know, And so
(22:52):
I went to go file that provisional or that non
provisional patent, which is the first step in the patent process.
And I'd looked and we were trying to cut money
anywhere we can, and so I looked at what it
would take to have a patent attorney drapped up and
it was like twelve hundred. But then through you, you know, YouTube,
university and other forms, I learned that that's a that's
(23:13):
one of the things that you can do on your
own that like legally, and so I filed it and
I would just advise anyone to save yourself a year
two three of just stress have a patent attorney doing it,
because the whole time, I'm like, this is what's going
to screw this up. Yeah, I filed that wrong. I
didn't put in the right information. Jason. I don't think
you realized how stressed I was. And then talking with
(23:34):
you guys, and then you know, it was it was
just funny because I'm like, this whole deal is going
to go down and crumble because I was being cheap.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Now our patent our council actually gave you kudos for
they didn't believe that just two guys that didn't have
any counsel.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
That was your guys applications. So you got good job.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I'll hear that you didn't want that felt better than
getting my like college diploma. When she said that, I
was like shit, I was like, I don't know. I
kind of up in the meeting was like, hey, so
will you just tell me what you thought that. She goes,
oh it was great.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah, I can work with this.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I can work with this.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
That was funny. So fast forward.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
We get all the business done, we're moving forward, right,
we've signed on all the dotted lines, we're able to
invest in tooling. Now is when like I can finally
start to help in this process besides just being a
reviewer of the product. When you've taken something that's three
D printed, and for those that don't know, three D
printing is awesome because anything you dream up can be made. Well,
(24:33):
guess what in the real world when you want to
mass produce these with automated parts, it doesn't work that way. Right,
there's coils. Now you've got coils. Well, how the heck
do you twist these things and get these coils into
a piece.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Of hard plastic? How do you.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Blow molding, which we've used on a lot of our
other tubes, isn't accurate enough to line up coils and
make sure that you know blow molding. You get good
external dimensions, but you are really limited to your shot
and how the shot spun on the inside or like
where the materials at so you know, the idea of
coils and all this stuff wasn't gonna work. So this
ended up being I've did lots of plastic injection before
(25:09):
on our smaller parts, but this is my first like
plastic injection beegle tube, Like, how are.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
We going to do this?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
What?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
What materials are available?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
And so we go through a process called DFM, which
is design and manuft Design for Manufacturability process, which you know,
you get these big reports on every part you make.
So on this tube we basically get what I call
the mouthpiece, the mid body, the main body, and then
the end cap correct and so we get a report
(25:40):
on each one of those parts. They're letting us know
concerns on sync, where parts are too thick, they're letting
us know where there's not enough draft. And so for
a lot for ninety nine percent people out there, draft
doesn't mean anything. But you can't slide a bar out
if something gets cast over like an underhook, right, So
you imagine, you know, a part that gets wrapped around,
(26:01):
you can't pull the bar back out, or you can't
slide a poll bar back out, And so we have
to make sure we've got at least a half a
degree or you know, sometimes more sometimes less logos become
a pain, right because you can't slide something past the
positive logo, so you're always looking at pulling the part
like skinny to big, you know. But then that doesn't
(26:22):
always work because if you've got recess or you know,
like this tube's got two corrugations in it, so now
you're looking at all, right, if we split the tool
in half and then start sliding stuff right, and so
it becomes a very very complex tool. And I we
fought sync a lot, which is ultimately when you guys,
you know, if you checked out this kuive intube, by
(26:44):
now we've got little hexagon you know, hexagonal pieces at
varying depths, right, And that was our solution to aesthetics.
But then also it was really to remove material, not
removing material for any other reason that it costs anymore
that it needed to look this way. It was that
if the plastic was that thick there, we were going
to get bad sinc which we'll touch on here in
(27:05):
a little bit. Like one of our major issues. When
we tested the first one, we had thin so it's
not thin metal on the part itself, but it's thin
metal on the tooling. Right, So if you can imagine,
in order to make this exact replica this part, your
part may make the tooling be very very thin or
(27:25):
like razor edged, and it's not gonna last. It's not
gonna be durable. So we were moving coil spacings back.
We were doing what else, guys did we run into
We ran into sinc We were run in the you know,
moving the coils back.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
We tried to make the pieces we mane to make. Yeah,
positive stops.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
We kind of added those positive stops, and so the
pieces don't really ever we I call them a positive stop,
but it really prevents us from like, cause the coil
can just keep going, but this will prevent it from
like it gives it kind of a bottom out, right,
so it doesn't want to keep, you know, pushing it
off out of itself.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Yeah, and a lot of a lot of the changes
that we would make. And I'm gonna kind of speak
like Kyle and I throughout the whole process, not only here.
There's a lot of times when people will have a
great idea, but it's getting that idea to the guy
who knows how to work at the computer. Kyle and
I would sit there and kind of argue about making
a change like the hexagonal shake to get rid of
the sync.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
He was telling me.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
I remember, I wanted to look like like a was
it a diamond that you'd press in? And I remember
looking at what are you talking at?
Speaker 3 (28:31):
What?
Speaker 4 (28:32):
And we would just try and model.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Like and diamond would need different and I'm trying to
tell him you would press it in further, and I clicked.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
I was like, oh, might know exactly what we're talking about.
And well, I ended up kind of making this part
that was almost like a mold piece that I combined
in the feature and it cut and it worked perfectly,
and we offset it and I gave it angles. And
as soon as I understood what draft was, because first
of all, what is draft? I remember you brought that up,
I thought, what is this crap? This draft thing? Yeah,
as soon as we figured that out, it was it
(29:02):
was great. You know, that was that was a big
learning curve for me. So I really really enjoyed that process.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Yeah, and I and you know that's something that I
feel like we would make changes over and over again,
and then we would stop and be like, we're making
changes for this material. So if we were sitting there
and making changes for PLA over and over again, we're like, well,
what we're about to make is not PLA, And so
you almost waste your time a little bit because there's
(29:28):
different cooling rates and there's different ways that material interacts
after it's it's built, and so that was something that's
extremely hard. Even I feel like I thought it would
be more streamlined, but you even when they send those
products over, you don't know exactly how it's going to interact.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, and we're doing our best on our side, right
because we've got a lot of money at stake.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
We're putting a lot of money into this tooling. I
keep my finances or my.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Company finance and myself, but this is by far the
most expensive tooling we've ever built.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Time sixt we're still paying on it, but very expensive.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
But at some point, like you're saying, you know, you
have to, we had a very good liaison, my design
team that works between ourselves and the manufacturer, also an engineer,
also a materials engineer. Like we're all putting our heads together,
like is this gonna work? Is it gonna shrink at
the right rate? And we're gonna end up in the
right spot. Are we gonna if we do get some sync,
(30:22):
like where does this end up?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
And so and me being like the one beating the drum.
Hey guys, we're running out.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Of time, right, So this not only not only do
we have to make changes, but I need them like
very quick because I'm I'm helping with some of the
ideas on the changes, not a lot of them, trying
to keep the scene on schedule, checking in daily, Like
all right, if.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
We get these you know, we get these changes d
by thursday, can we go?
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Well?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Then the thing that.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I feel like when I was just designing roads or bridges,
I would make the change once and it would just stick.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
It's like we'd make changes what would create another set
of issues. So we get the DFM report back and like, well,
that's great, we've the thin metal issue. Now we've got
this other issue that's popped up or a brittle edge
or something. Yeah, And so it was what three or
four or five iterations, We're finally ready for our first
T zero sample. We we get through all of this,
(31:14):
we're testing stuff, we're trying to train up the facility,
and it's making them kind of how things should fit
you know, the end cap and I get the first
part shipped to me, and this if I remember at
the small and threaded into the medium end pretty well
it fit.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
The middle body will not go through.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
The large end is extremely tight, and I'm like, well,
this is not this is not gonna work like and
this is not functional for a hunter. And then the
worst part was I wanted to put the end caped
on and it fell in like it was way too
the end cap was oversized or our end cap was undersized,
or the end of the tube was oversized or a
combination thereof. Well, this is like the most frustrating part
(31:58):
for me because I I've got all kinds of ID
gauges OD gauge's calipers. But now we're sitting here in
task with like how did this happen? Like what is
the cause? What part needs fixed? Does both of them?
Is it stacking tolerances? Is it one or the other?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Like?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
What caused this?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
You guys got I sent I overnighted yours to you.
I can remember swinging by some FedEx store. Get them
to you guys, so we can start to work on
this together. You guys realized we did get some like
sink in the one area that got tight. We we
realized that we got some sync on the end cap.
And we're all kind of sitting there like, huh, because
(32:38):
now you have the idea to either go back and
spray weld your tool if you want to, if you
want to add material, or you can keep machining and
going out. So we're trying to like with with keeping
the schedule as close as we can, like what's the
right solution here, quickest, cheapest, all of those things to
get us a workable, serviceable product.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, and I YouTube stressed, and since I wasn't the designer,
I was like, what do you guys gonna do? I will,
but I could tell like Steven was stressed, and I
we we'd sit there in his basement and just like
we've done before and just iterations and we'd come up
with five ten different solutions and then throw you out
the best three and just having that experience through you know,
(33:20):
years of you doing this, and it was like you've mentioned, like,
this isn't my first rodeo dealing with tolerances, you know,
some some of the other. And I it's funny too,
because when you go through the process, you start to
really appreciate what other people accomplished in products or some
of the other products you have, and how you know
the reads the way that you can get them to
fit into some of your other products and stuff. So
(33:41):
and that's where Steve and I and it was so
cool that you kept us involved because you're totally you
are totally you know, capable of doing that, but you
helped you allowed us to to still stay in the
mix and and help fix our own problems.
Speaker 5 (33:57):
Always kept me really nervous because I'd be modeling stuff
and making a change and I send it to you
and be like, man, does he know I'm not a
mechanical engineer. Does he know this isn't what I do
for this is a hobby, you know, So I'd be
kind of nervous about it. But everything worked out pretty well.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
No, you you crushed it, steven On.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
You know a lot of times just an idea guy,
or I do have a mechanical engineer that I've consulted
with in the past, but I didn't want to.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I wanted this to be you guys. And we we
powered through and got there.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
So I'm stoked at how everything turned out. But let's
so fast forward we're trying to come up with a solution.
It's not really going to be in the design. The
design is what it is. Like we know that works
on a piece that is can stick to spec. We
know that, but we've either got it, We've got to
just we've got to either make a guess amant on
if well, if that shrinks too much, then we need
(34:47):
to open it up another five thouur tenth thou to
get it to fit. Right, is there are the coil
still going to hook? Like now I start to feel
nervous because there's some risk and in our decisions we
go back. I call it the material board, like are
there some materials that just get you out of this?
And this is where I'm not gonna I've told everybody
in the past our tubes are all HDPE. You're not
(35:09):
gonna get to find out what this one was. So
we this tube ended up being a result of something
that shrunk a little bit less but could still fit
in the same tool and it would react in the tool,
and it was a little bit of a blessing in disguise,
maybe a little bit of a godsend. But why what
we were trying to do is always worked for a
(35:29):
tube in the past. This new material that we use
on this is, in my opinion, and I'm not I
get a chance to use carbon fiber beegle tubes. I
use metal aluminum bugle tubes. Plastic. We kind of got
backed into a material that makes an amazing beegle tube.
Louder I feel it's a little more rich than what
(35:50):
we had been testing previously, and so in order to
create less shrink, we ended up landing on a material
that in my opinion, is a little bit better on
an elk tube and ultimately solved all the issues basically
there at the end.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
So like just it's how it works.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Sometimes it doesn't always work that way, but through material
selection we cleaned up some of our issues. We did
have to make us what we did have to make
the end cap a little bit bigger, got the snap
fit to be very very positive. We were also nervous
that if it snapped, the original material we were using
has more of a memory. So as we were worried,
(36:28):
all right, your stuff an end cap and it's not
quite tight enough.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
It gets hot.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Now that end CAP's going to mold that or the
the end of the barrel is going to mold the
end cap. Is it going to fall out next time?
Very very positive, click, We've got now materials tough. We
got rid of as much of the sticking on overtightening
on both ends, and really just ended up on hopefully
(36:52):
a product that you guys can be super proud of
your guys's brain child that I was able to maybe
just polish along the way or luck into some decisions
that made it even better.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Well, and that's what was so cool was when you'd
gotten that sample of that new material. We the initially
the material was to avoid all the problems that were
taking place with with tolerancing or sticking or this or
that and another. And then the text we got was
got the new material, and the first thing you said
was it's loud. Yeah, And that was like sweet, like
(37:23):
that icing on top of the cake and you're like,
oh yeah, and everything else works. And so that was
because first and foremost, we're trying to create a product
that that functions, but then what's the product do? Yeah,
we're trying to be out there and be loud. So
that was great.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
I do a lot of what I would call like
standard testing in my office, in my you know, step
out of my office door on the upstairs of our shop.
And it's the same place, same reads. And I told
my wife after the very first one, the final final
production in olive Green, I came up here and cranked
on it for five six minutes make sure everything worked.
I'm like my ears hurt, you know, for a couple
(38:07):
hours afterwards. And so it's the same tubes I use
up here now. The metal the carbon are both loud,
but this kivin is every bit as loud, and it's
it's got great back pressure.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
And I love that back pressure terminology because you know,
being I like to you know, Kyle's the big elk
hunor he's taken me. I'm not as you know, experienced
as he is, but I remember when we were we
get some feedback. It's got really good back pressure, that
end cap, you know. And it's hilarious because the one
I was initially when we were kind of making that
that end cap was had a different purpose.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
It had nothing to do with back pressure, but the.
Speaker 5 (38:43):
Shape of it and the way that it holds the
pieces in it just seems to be a really really
good and it kind of it kind of amplifies and
bounces anyways, it ended up being really really good with
that back pressure and that you know I like to
walk around.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
So oh yeah, that was intentional. Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Now it's a it's a home run. Like I say,
it's got our logo on one side, but truly, you know,
you guys did the heavy lifting and we're we're stoked
to bring it out.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Uh. One last thing we started.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
We got those tea what i'd call T one samples,
the second set of samples, and I'm like, these things
are way too shiny, Like I've ordered everything in like
a C three finished. So just these things that keep
coming up when you're trying to get stuff out, like days,
you know, every single day matters, and so we had
to have them go back and like, well, that is
truly a C three, which I don't believe you because
(39:33):
it's literally it's it's a it's what was left when
you mild the tool out like you guys, it's it's
got shiny sections, it's got doll sections, it's.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Whatever tool you know, end mill, ball, mill and ball
and mill whatever they were using to make that section.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
You guys didn't spray it after, so you know, kind
of kind of fought with the manufacturer a little bit like, no,
you guys didn't.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I'm not paying for that.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
You guys did not give us a C three finish,
But now that we're here, give me like a D
one finish.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
So we've got this thing.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
So one of the downsides, maybe the only downside to
the Kiven Tube is its modularity prevents any cover from
going on up besides a short section of the big end,
which we don't provide at this point. So that's why
me being a hunter making sure we get everything out
of this weekend, we go to that very very dull,
olive green matt finish. You know, maybe somewhere in the
(40:24):
future we provide some little cover for it, but as
of now, the Kiven Tube will be completely exposed plastic
on the outside, which is just a nature of the function.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Yeah, yeah, and that intention being that it'll fit anywhere
in its backpacks and a couple holders, I mean they
were they're all built to spec for kind of that
Nalgene bottle that that outdoorsy water bottle size, and so
the bezel is built around that size, so it'll fit
in any of any your your pack pockets. And that's
where that's where it stays. And and it h you
(41:01):
can you can even take that piece out and keep
it on the end of the call. I've had I've
had some people do that and tighten up because there's
a little strap around some of those pieces and keep
that on there if you wanted to keep the camera
on the end.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
But yeap, And one of the cool things is you
don't got to extend all three sections. You can just
extend the mouthpiece and the middle section if you want
less volume, a little tighter sound.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
So it's it's got a ton of a ton of utility.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I kind of joke at the sportsman shows or play
around with it like it's a great gobble tube. If
you're trying to gobble in the turkey and you have
it completely condensed, you know, if you have it half
if you have it halfway out, you know, it's a
great coyote call.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
So it truly is a good call. Might they are
available now, you know, at all of.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Your your favorite outdoor retailers, and then also on the
website a little shameless plug there. But our team crushed it.
So back to the schedule, we get this, we pull
the trigger. They found one more issue right that the
end of one of the coils was collapsing, and once
again we had to make like a split second decision.
They basically proposed us with three options. You know, I
(42:08):
just like our stuff to look good as well as function.
They said one would just be a cosmetic issue. But
we ended up you know, cleaning it up with option three,
making it kind of slide in better. So that was
like one last second thing, and then got the tubes in.
We built three thousand of them, assembled them, boxed them
in two days, and yeah, they're shipping out. Matter of fact,
(42:29):
as we're recording the email, I just got a report
that a very large chunk of them went out today
to all the retailers. So today is July first, so
we're this will air on July tenth. So yeah, it's
just kind of cool to see the process, see everything moving, and.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
You know, praise the.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Lord whatever you whatever you believe in. But uh, this
thing like barely made it in by the skin of
our teeth.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
You know.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
I was worried that some of these big retailers would
cancel us.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
You know, they had canceled dates by July one, but
we today is July one, and everything made it and
is out and going to be available.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
No cool, and it was. It was so fun watching
everyone's effort and the fact that you know, and I
mentioned this before, you kept us in the loop and
that was so cool to see because from a base
from where we started and Steven's basement just designing that
that Star Wars sword Style tube, being able to watch
a product go to market, I cannot express the amount
(43:26):
of steps and challenges and everything that are faced. And
then when you're Steven and Kyle Bradshaw and then you
have Jason Phelps, who are who's helping you to the
finish line, and then watching you go through this process,
it was it was a huge learning experience and I'm
it it was such a good decision for us because
for us to finish this thing off without your expertise
(43:50):
and to watch you, you know, you're saying, by the
grace of God, but that Jason, that watching you got
it there at the end. I mean the way that
you can push in your business sense working with the
manufacturers and everything, and then your business relationships with the
with the distributors. I'm sure you know everything that you've
built from Phelps game calls is really what I think
(44:10):
got this same are in time.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
And it's just I don't want everybody to be an
engineer or an entrepreneur or think they can do this.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
But you guys got to see it.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
It's weird, like until you know, you don't know right,
it's it's but now that you've gone through the process once,
like I could probably do that again, Like it's not
that scary anymore. There's a lot of work that, don't
get me wrong, there's a lot of work between you know,
us talking and where we got to. But what else
you're gonna do with that time anyways, You're gonna be
working somewhere else. So it's just it's just a process.
And and I think a lot of people and this
(44:43):
this this extends the life and and any tough situation
is like you just don't give up on it, like
we from the time I knew it was a good
idea and had some merit in the ELK cunning world,
like that was all I needed, Like I can navigate this.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
It's just time effort.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Sometimes it could be too much money, don't get me wrong,
but you know, as long as as long as the
finances all make sense, it's just effort and I'm gonna
be doing I have to show up to this place
ten hours a day anyways, might as well be working
on something that I like and passionate about.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
And so, yeah, it is a it is a.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
A difficult process, sometimes nuanced, sometimes complex, a lot.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Of moving parts.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
But once you've went through it once, hopefully this will
give you guys confidence to uh, you know, tackle anything
else that that comes your way. And and that's that's
a great segue into like the future of Kyvan because
we we have the Kyvin Beagle two.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
But you guys are doing other stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
I'm knowing you guys, getting to know you better over
the last year a year plus, Like, I'm sure you
guys got more stuff like what's next on the in
the basement of Stephen Bradshaw and Kyle dreaming of crazy ideas.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
Top secret.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
You're still trying to still trying to file those pat
provisional patents.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
You know that.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
So we definitely have like a bundle of ideas things
that we've been prototyping and something that Steve and I
have looked at and I really haven't aired this out
to anywhere or anyone else, would be that you know,
maybe kind ofn turns into a business that helps other
people get their ideas to Like maybe it's something that
(46:18):
you come to us and we have the knowledge to
know how to get your product to market, you know,
maybe creating different business relationships and rapid prototyping, you know,
along the side of some of the things that we
have in the works which I won't won't use. I
won't sell anything I haven't used, So a lot of
things that we've created, I'll be you know, hunting with
(46:39):
this fall and and maybe even handing out to some
other people I know. But uh, but that's kind of
where that's kind of where we're at with it. We're
really excited because this just initial product, this our flagship
product is what we call it. You you really do
need a little bit of capital to start. Like everyone
(47:00):
you know you can you can go out and get
business loans and do this, that and another, but to
have the initial startup and I think you mentioned this
in one of your podcasts, like you need you need,
you do need some money to get in front of
people right and and to sell your product and do
it right. We definitely.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
Know that there's.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Some challenges to just getting out there in the hunting space.
Like you know, there's always room for entry, but to
be loud and to for people to know your name.
And you got to go to the expos. You got
to go to the TACK events and and and create
all those relationships and stuff. And and we're I think
we're we're I think you'll see us.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Around Yeah good good, So yeah, I think you guys
are you know, this is this is my uh my,
not you guys. You know, you guys are great guys
and uh some you know people I wouldn't has stated
to tell other people to do business with. You know,
seen your guys' thought process and and this this is
you know, this is not not to blow smoke to anybody,
(48:03):
but like I've always felt like the people.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Now, you gotta have a good product. But once there's
a good product.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Like the people behind it are more important to me
than than maybe the product itself.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
And so I'll vouch for you guys any day of
the week.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Stoke to get to know you guys work on this
and then yeah, now we just got to crush this
thing and and uh, you know, take care of take
care of our marketing side and make sure everybody you
know has one of these moving forward.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Maybe kill some elk along the way.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Yeah, yeah, well we'll see if I can, if I
can figure out figure that out.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
That's what I joked with you. I was like, so
now that everything now that is for sale, right, I
think Steven he said he had a plan for us
all to go hunting hunting together on the hick read.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
Or on the.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah, we'll have to if this, if this thing takes
off like we think it will, well maybe put that
in the budget for next year. We go down and
gate and hickorya tags. No, it's been awesome getting to
know you guys. Now, well now you kind of told
a hunt story about your first dog. You guys have
any hunting stories you want to share before we close
this thing up and wrap it up. It seems like
(49:07):
we've been stuck on the tube the whole time, which
is cool, but I want to give you guys a
chance to talk about your favorite hunts or anything you
guys have did the school or that you have coming up.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
Yeah, you know we're I've never drawn heck, I've never
really drawn a good tag. Everything we've done over the
counter and hunt Idaho, Wyoming, I've bounced all around I'm
always dragging Stephen long too. He's got he's got kids,
young kids, so his priority.
Speaker 5 (49:34):
Struggle shifted struggle to get away a ton. But I
try to go at least once or twice a years. Luckily,
le basically my guide. We have said any many elk
and many many deer, and I won't say where. But
it's been a lot of time.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think it'd be
fun just to give a snidbit into like I think,
just some advice, if that's okay, Jason, Yeah, yeah, I mean,
so if I were to think of an elk hunting story,
and like I said, I haven't been elk and very long,
I mean twenty seventeen and started watching after that initial
call in that I mentioned, I started watching YouTube videos
(50:08):
and started watching you know, how to call, how to
make those different noises? And there's no secret sauce. But
there's so much hunting information out there right now. I mean,
I mentioned YouTube University is a real thing. The amount
of information that you can get just watching YouTube videos
and reading books. And in a short time. You know,
I've killed elk every year since then, I've killed a bowl.
(50:31):
There was one year I did not my brother William.
He drew a limited entry elk tag down on the Mantai,
and I would encourage anyone if you want to learn
stuff about elk, you can do all that. But in
the field, especially when you have a tag opportunity or
someone in your family or friend has a tag opportunity,
and you can utilize the experience that goes along with
(50:54):
being in areas with elk. You know, I mean a
lot of these over the counter units, they're just so
hard to be into elk every day and to learn
their habits, especially when they're heavily pressured. But on that
on that Manti hunt, you know, we it was a
ten day hunt at the time. We hunted just just
about every day, and going into different canyons and calling
(51:15):
in different bowls and walking up to maybe where elk
used to be and learning, okay, this is why they're here,
you know, this is these are the features that you
should be looking for, and and then then talking to
elk and okay, why is it, why did that elk
come in versus where this one didn't, And just having
an abundance of elk that you can learn from really
in in in the sense that you just wouldn't get
(51:37):
that on every over the counter hunt. So if you're
just trying to learn how to elk hunt, and I
would say, go go on somebody's limited entry elk hunt
and and get out there and do that. That's where
most my my elk hunt knowledge I think came from
was was doing that and then jumping into those over
the counter units and taking all that. But like Jason,
(52:02):
you know, any of these shows, Dirk, they're very willing
to help you to on. Like I remember, Dirk doesn't
know this too. I went up to him one time.
I was like, hey, how do I sound. You just
run up and you blow in their face and they go, oh,
well look I would try this maybe a little bit,
or do this that another and it's fun.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
But no, no, that's great advice.
Speaker 4 (52:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
I always tell everybody. Number one, which piggybacks on yours,
is don't go out there and expect to kill the
biggest bulls right off the bat, Like there's steps.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
There's levels to this game.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
So you know, you hear all these kids nowadays there's
levels of the game, like there are levels to hunting,
Like that's it's not near as easy to go kill
and now it can't happen. You know, go kill the
big six point, you know, the biggest bowl in the mountain. Go,
you know, kill kill a cow. First kill a small bowl,
and then work your way up. And like you said,
great units opportunity where you can work a bowl every morning,
(52:54):
every evening, so much more valuable than spending three days
trying to even find an oak. Now there's there is value.
And what did it take to find those elk? And
where did you finally find them? But you know, when
you do that, you only get to work three, four
or five bowls a year. Where where I grew up,
I would get the hard to you know, even not
necessarily such special units, but like very hard to get
(53:15):
to spots where I would see twenty thirty legal bowls
in a day.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
Like I got lots of opportunity.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
I could screw up two or three times in a morning,
two or three times at night and just run through
that over and over, which definitely flattens that learning curve,
which there aren't over the counter spots like that around
here anymore. But those special units that have lots of
elk can still produce that sort of an experience. And
I can I agree one hundred percent that you want
to get better elk hunting and YouTube university is a
(53:43):
is a real thing, but sometimes it doesn't translate real well.
It can give you the basis and the knowledge, but
I have just found over talking to a lot of
people and sometimes year after year, five years after five
years after you know, over a long period of time,
some of these people are just reluctant to do it
no matter how many times I say, well, you need
do this or you know, think about doing that. There's
like I can't bugle when I'm that closed, you know,
(54:04):
and or whatever it may be, not saying that's always
right answer. But yeah, you still go out there and
develop your own system the way you want to l hunt.
Make sure you have a little bit of success along
the way. Otherwise you should probably change what you're doing.
But you figured it out for yourself, you know, go
out and try something, does it work, does it not?
(54:24):
Did it work again, did it not? And eventually just
you know, reel it in. So no, great great advice, Kyle,
That's great.
Speaker 3 (54:32):
Yeah, and kind of a closing note. I wanted to
just I can't. I could sit here and lift list
off people. But the hunting industry has an immense amount
of support, and we had support from family members, to friends,
to influencers in the community and just people in the
hunting space. It's a good it's a good place to
(54:52):
be in it. People want to see succeed and if
anybody out there has ideas and the ideas to make
products better, I'd say just try it, you know, get
out there, go to some of these events, and I
think you people would be surprised how supportive the hunting
industry is. It's great.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
Yeah, that's it's a pretty cool group.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
So once again, can't thank you guys for coming on
the podcast, and enough can't thank you guys for giving
us a chance to be a part of your your
flagship product, your first product. And here's the kind of
crushing it here in the next two or three ten
years to have a feeling the idea and the technology
behind that, Kuyvin Coyle lock is what we're going to
(55:33):
build a lot of our new stuff on. I'm moving
forward so excited about that. You guys have a great
summer and we'll stay in touch for sure, as.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
You know, fall approaches.
Speaker 3 (55:43):
Thanks Jason, Thanks appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
Yeah, take care
Speaker 4 (56:00):
The back hand s
Welcome back to another episode of Cutting into This and
today I'm sitting down with Kyle and Stephen Bradshaw, the
inventors of what I honestly believe is one of the
most innovative ELK calling tools in recent years.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
In the KIVN Beagle Tube.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
If you haven't seen it yet, this is the first,
in my opinion, truly collapsible but still full sized Beegle
tube compresses down to about the size of an al
gene bottle, making it a dream for all of us
that are minimalist ELK hunters or guys just running and
gunning in the in the rough country. And as a
call designer myself, I'm always looking for great ideas, and
sometimes that means recognizing when somebody else has maybe one
(00:45):
nailed down or one a little better than I've come
up with. And I'm also a user of all this gear,
right so I look at it and try to figure
out how it worked with what we've got going on,
and I knew right away it was special. And it
takes a little humility to admit that, you know, as
a call designer, you know Dirk brought this idea to
me on the heels of the twenty twenty four Western
(01:09):
Hunt and so today we're going to talk about where
this idea came from, the struggles with it, how to
get it mass produced, how we came in contact with
these guys, and uh, you know this tube launch three
days ago, and kind of what it took to get
it from where they took it and to where we
got it.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So welcome to the show, Kyle and Stephen.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Thanks Jason for having Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Go ahead, no, go ahead, Yeah, no, We're we're very excited.
And I like that at the end there, how you mentioned,
you know, where it first started to where we've taken
it today and attributing to all of your success, Like,
it is so great to have the Phelps brand back
us on this product. And apart from you know, everything
(01:52):
else that we've been working on, this was like our
staple product that we wanted Hunters to use and we
knew that working with you this thing was going to
make it all the way way. So we're really excited
about that.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, and uh, to be completely transparent, you know, there
were there were a few people starting to use it
and I had caught win you know, anything that's new
in the honting industry. You start to get pictures and
what and I'm like, I'm gonna root against these guys.
I'm gonna root against some hard right, Like I don't
want It's a good idea, but I hope it doesn't
get any legs. And you know, and a little back history,
you know, you see things are three D printed.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You're like, well, that's not sustainable or not profitable.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
You're like, you're like, you're trying to come up with
all these ideas on why this thing's not going to
take off. And at the same time, I'm scared to
death that somebody maybe have a better idea, you know,
has a better idea than I do.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That's funny. And you know when people say that, they'll say,
it's just three D printed. And I've always hated that
term because, as you know, a new designer, when you're prototyping,
that's it's just the most feasonable way to go. And
we didn't have the means to you know, injection mold
or manufacture it any other way. So we were just
three D printing. And that was something that when we
(02:56):
started talking with you, We're like, Okay, this guy knows
how to create product.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Yeah, three D printing is not easy.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
It's a you could dive into it, and it is
a lot to it.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So whatever, yeah, yeah, no, And that's not a dig
like we do tons of three D printing. I've just
always felt and we've learned through this, like you know,
we don't we're not going to talk numbers here anything,
but you see like where the margins start to come from,
and how you can like peel this thing back to
a point where it can be a high production profitable
because I would be lying to say that ninety nine
(03:26):
percent of what I produce here doesn't come into three
D print in some form or fashion. You know, anything
we've did in silicone. You know, they can print three
D silicon, and they can three D print titanium. They
can three D print all of these things now. And
so that wasn't a dig at you guys. It was
the idea that if it's going to always be production
three D printed, it's going to be rough because I
you know, having three D printers in the past and
(03:48):
and ordering stuff from them just you know, time on
the machines and unless you're a mass mass produced So
now that that was just more of a joke and
this as Dirt came home from that Western hunt and said, hey,
these guys are pretty good guys.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It's got good back pressure, it's got good.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Sound, and I'm like, all right now, now this, you know,
the relationship kind of changes one ady from rooting against
You're like, hey, let's see if we can get this
thing to work together.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah, no, that's fun. And you know, kind of a
backstory on that. We'd worked on it for two years
before we'd let anyone see it, and that was just
between Steve and I. I was going to Utah State
at the time and they allowed for students to use
their three D printers and wed I was printing something
for my brother that he was working on, and Steven
(04:31):
wanted to get into three D modeling and I'll let
him get in on that. But we started kind of sampling,
just smaller pieces there, and then we got the courage
to buy our own, which was an Ender was it an.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Ender V two three pro?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, And Steven kind of tell him how you got
into modeling, Well, you.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Came to me and said, hey, I'm gonna we're gonna
buy this printer. It's going to be at your house
and you're gonna become the editor, And I said, uh, okay,
so I did. We put it together other one night
and we started tinkering with it. I think I remember
the first time we ran at it. I think the
gears grinded and it made a weird noise. I think
I stayed up all night because I was worried I
was going to catch the house on fire.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
I didn't know what to expect. So but yeah, it
was just.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
A lot of a lot of tinkering and a lot
of learning as you go, a lot of YouTube and
for the modeling side, I was fortunately I work as
a like a manufacturing engineer for a while, and uh
I was learning how to three D model as like
a work goal, and so we were able to kind
of talk and I was able to kind of implement
(05:33):
some designs and kind of learn as I go with this.
I always kind of laugh because a lot of the
design was made. You know, I'd be sitting at work
and I'm I'm learning and I'm I'm modeling.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
But my boss would walk by and look at my computer.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
And good job, you know, good for taking on a
skill and a work goal, and just I said, yeah, absolutely,
I'm I'm taking this all the way.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Meanwhile, I'm making a bugle tube.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So yeah, there's a lot of similar beginnings there were.
You know, I just designed roads, you know, interstates and
bridges and stuff, which wasn't near I find what you
guys do a lot more complex where it's more mechanical.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
But it frustrates me that.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, but I learned a lot of my drafting to
get some of my more simple parts done just the
same way through my cad at worked, but it gave
me just enough skills to be able to design some
of this stuff. But yeah, so let's jump into the origin. Like,
we're all hunters, we all want new gear, we all
buy the fanciest new gear.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
But where did this idea come from?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Originally like the very the very first mustard seed that
grew this thing into what it is now.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So I grew up in Salt Lake and we'd only
ever hunted meal deer, grown up. Our opportunities in Utah
for over the counter elk just aren't super great, but
we'd had We have some elk. We have an Elkurd
on our wall, sets front range, and I'd set up
some trail cameras and there were legal at the time
during the season, and I was looking for meal there
(07:04):
and I kept getting the six point bowl on there
and I turned on video mode and he'd still be
in that same meadow. And I come to work and
I'm showing the guys because they were all from a
smaller town campus just right here, and they were all
big ELK guys. They're like, I don't know why you're
here at work in September when you have a bowl
in an area that's stuck there on some cows, Like
what are you doing? And so I'm like, ah, you know,
(07:24):
and I've watched some YouTube videos, but I just didn't
know anything about ELK. And so I went to cal
Ranch and forty dollars ELK tag and I bought a
Ucci Mama, so I it's a little bit of a
shout out doing a Huci Mama. Of sense. Then grown
from the UCI Mama and realized that having being able
to use a diaphram or some of these other tools
are way more effective when you're ready for the shot
(07:47):
and you're in the zone, you know. But I'd gone
up there and I'm standing that meadow and I and
I'm like, this is like a dog toy. This is
not making any sense. And I heard a bugle and
I'm like, that's no way. So I'm standing in the
middle of this meadow and the sixth point bull comes
running out, all muddy, breathing heavy, and I was like,
oh my gosh, this is this is insane. You know,
this is awesome. And so then I went and bought
(08:08):
some diaphragms and started and started to learn. And so,
I mean, this isn't very long ago. This was twenty
seventeen nineteen, and uh, you know. From there, I went
and bought a bugle tube lost it and always wanted
that extra volume, and so I bought yours, which is
funny because Dirk doesn't know this. I talked to Dirk
(08:29):
at one of the hunting expos I mean it was
maybe twenty nineteen or something, and he had his bugler
with the gray cover on it and you had the
first light cover and he's sitting there and yeah, this,
this and that, and he sold me from some diaphragms
and I looked over. I'm like, oh, what about that one.
He goes, oh, yeah, that one's good too. I'm like, well,
I like the camera on that one. And he goes,
(08:49):
so he sells me that one, and I heard him
when I walked away. He goes, there's another one just
to the camo. Okamurmer that and but you know, and
I love the the volume that comes out of that.
But unfortunately, if you know anything about the wasass that's front,
it is so heavily populated with just recreators. I mean
it's an archery only, and they did that just because
(09:11):
of the high prevalence of people. And so I'd get
up there and I'd first, like you know, I'd hike
six miles and I'd rip a bugle and I'd sit
there and listen. Then I'd hear, hey, Dave, do you
hear that this? Don't look at ilk We're just hear that.
And I'm like, my health cutting's over for the day.
But I still got a deer tag, so maybe I
can hunt deer. And I got my spotting scope. So
I just wanted the space. I just wanted the room
(09:33):
in my pack. And you know, this was about the
same time that Steve and I were tinkering with three
D printing and we were printing some other things and
I was like, Stephen, I wonder if I could make
a bugle tube that would just you know, make it smaller.
And so his first prototype, which I'd like to share
one day with everyone, is maybe it was what ten pieces,
and yeah, it was that had a mouthpiece on it
(09:54):
and then the rest just look like one of those yeah,
like star war swords that you fling out.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Like those little cups of the kids have that backed
down flat is they got like five sections that make
them into a cup and exactly, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
All it was, and that's what it was. And then
I mean we really went from there. It was it
was fun and through the process. I mean we could
talk a long time about each in each individual Stephen,
how many did you say we had? Rev?
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Thirty two?
Speaker 5 (10:27):
I think plus that's big changes, you know, minor teams.
You don't mark those, and that's something I learned along
the way. But a lot of the tubes, you know,
we would would we'd make it and then we we
could do this, and most design manufacturing you would make
several changes and review it and then print. But the
way Kyle and I would work would make one subtle
change and let's print that sucker. So I have a
(10:49):
basement full of plastic bugle tubes that my kids will
grab and hit each other with all the time.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
So it's great, nice, nice funny.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So, uh, that first part of type A bunch of
extendable circle sections of tube. When did you guys what
led to like what we're calling our coil lock technology.
You know that the patent is actually filed around Like
when did that come into play? Like when did you
guys decide that was like a more positive system? When
(11:19):
did it come you know, when did it get decided
to make it? The three pieces? Like, tell us about
that process on. Yeah, we don't need to go through
every revision, but just kind of how we got there
and like where where the final idea came from.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, So this was I think it was twenty twenty two.
I'd gone out cunting by myself and I'd had one
of his. We called it friction fit because you would
pull the ends as tight as you could and it
would cause enough friction to stay put and when you
would go to collapse it, you'd have to push so
hard that the mouthpiece would end up shooting out. And
(11:50):
so what the first end cap, which really ended up
being one of the biggest, you.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Know, challenging pieces, is out there, right.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And you've seen, yeah, the magic. And so the first
end cap was actually looked like a crosshair to keep
the other pieces from falling out. And so that's what
I went hunting with was that, and I killed an
elk with it, and there's a little video of me
showing it. But I kind of knew that it just
wasn't like there's just well first off the root. You
(12:18):
can hear it, and I remember.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Walking you know it's yeah, it's that material in the
sunlight will warp. So we just knew right away that
three D printing is great for prototyping, but it can
never be like, at least for PLA, you can't use
it outside.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Sorry, oh you're fine. And I remember walking in on
like an elk and I was worried about it collapsing,
and I'm like, this is not with my gear, right,
you just you need to know that it's gonna you
can trust it out in the field, especially when it counts.
And so I'm like, Stephen, this thing has to lock.
And then when it's closed, I don't need it rattling.
(12:56):
It has to lock there and so and then from
then we started playing with other prototypes and we tried
some other snap fit models, but again you'd have that
you'd need that defining snap to where each piece would
go snap snap, and then it would the force to
set it down. I don't care what material you have,
it's just too loud for the type application that I'd like.
(13:18):
So so then we started playing with this this coil
lock and Steve and you can yeah, well, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
I experimented with threads and with the diameter.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
The modeling program I was using at the time wouldn't
let me put threads on it. Plus something little details
we got into was we called it, you know, the illusion,
But basically in the inside you'd have a straight and
then an angle, and so it kind of looked like
it was angled, but it wasn't. We were really excited
about it, but it was hard to get threads at
an angle. But anyways, we ended up with this coil
(13:49):
feature that we were just kind of using as a
thread and it was very subtle, very thin, but it
worked really well. And as soon as we did it,
you know, there was a bunch of prototypes where the
coil wasn't tight enough, it was too loose, and I
had to learn about offsetting it and add to fill
its and all kinds of grease and just all these
different things to try to get a coil fitment to work.
And then once you had that working and then you
(14:11):
were on threading in, it would bind all all kinds
of fun stuff. So but yeah, it was just a
coil feature that we kind of found and then we
found out how to make that coil feature lock and
tension fit tightened. And yeah, it's been quite a quite
a lot of prototypes, so we figured it out.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, and then you know those original materials you mentioned
PLA which, for those that don't know, it's a type
of plastic resin that was specifically designed for three D printing,
if my memory serves me correct, And and we'll talk
about the recognition of the idea and then how we
ultimately changed materials. But yeah, I can remember the first
prototype once Dirk said we should look into this. You
guys were open to the idea. You mentioned grease. You know,
(14:50):
I opened the first one up and my hands are
all grease. You now, yeah, like like something happened, and
then you're like, you know, the first one, we knew it.
But you know, sometimes you could overtighten them because pla.
Once again, no matter how high quality of a three
D printer, you've got their ridges and it creates like
additional friction that you you know, didn't necessarily want.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
But regardless of all of that, I was stoked about
the performance.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Like great back pressure is a guy that you know
roots myself and being a high high quality caller, a
guy that's very very picky on the back pressure. I
get very very picky about the volume I get. I said,
regardless of the grease on my hands right now, and
regardless of you know, any of these other things, regardless
that you know that it's only three D printed right now,
(15:34):
like this thing has got some legs. I'm we can
work with this. And then so that kind of leads
us to the recognition of the great idea. Right It's like, ah,
we can do this now. It's like, are these guys
that I didn't know at the time, Kyle and Steven
willing to talk to us? Are they interested in this?
Are they are they going to bring this thing out?
You know, you guys had already filed for your pat
(15:56):
and your provisional at that time, Like how do we
deal with that? Like we're not going to get into
the nuts and bolts of all of that, but I
will say I'm gonna say I wanted to do a royalty,
which would have saved me lots of years of my
life for months and hours, and we ended up, you know,
doing this contract thing and nobody needs no other details,
(16:18):
but basically, you know, coming out the other side, we're
building a legal to with Kiven's name on it. We'll
just put it that way. So the recognition of the
great idea, Dirk was fully on board. I was fully
on board. You guys were open to entertaining the idea
as long as it made quote unquote business sense for
you guys. Now let's move because with my experience and
(16:40):
my understanding of schedules, tooling everything, we're gonna have to
get into place like we're already kind of behind right
in order to release it this year. So that was
where like my concern lied at that point. And then
this this process drug out and drug out, and we
were unwilling to start spending you know, lots of money
on tooling until this was like a for sure thing.
(17:03):
We don't need to get into that as much because
it's gonna boor everybody. But I'm not a legal expert.
I don't like dealing with that side. I just want
to design cool stuff and use cool stuff and make
it the best we can. But in this process there
I do want to touch on. There's a little bit
of that humility, and anybody that knows me knows and
(17:25):
I hate being a proud guy, but I would be
lying to say, like, I'm not pretty prideful at times
in in my my know how when I'm able to
do my skill, and there was a lot of humility
in order for me to be like, yeah, you guys
got a great idea, like, let's make this happen. And
so that uncomfortable situation that I'm not good in is
where a lot of growth happens, right, And so just
(17:46):
kind of adding to the podcast a little bit of
sentimental stuff here, like when you're uncomfortable, when you don't
necessarily like it, but you're willing to get over that
is where you know, some cool stuff happens.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And Jason, I have to I don't. You don't know that,
but I was I'd gotten some advice from, you know,
some other people in the industry, and when we'd first
talked to Dirk, he was like, guys, I like it
sounds like Jason's on board. I was wondering if I
could take one of your calls right now. This is
at the expo, and he goes, you know, I think
we could jump on this quick, in a hurry, and
I'm like, okay, And so I went and talked to
(18:18):
my advice and they're like, you know, usually when someone's
in a hurry, it's you know, and see, we were
kind of like a little standoffish because I would say,
anybody and maybe you were this way at the start.
When you have like a new product or you're trying to,
you know, get a patent application, you feel like you're
being chased, and especially when you're very small, it almost
(18:40):
seems like somebody can just squish you quick. But then
we're like, we're talking to one of the big dogs,
and so let's have that conversation. And as soon as
we start talking with you, we realized Steve and I
would joke, he's just like us. He you know, he
he's a hunter, he makes movie quotes, he's funny, and
then you know he's a family man. You're constantly you know,
(19:00):
you would all right, guys, we're gonna do this, this
and that and Okay, I gotta go to basketball practice
or stuff like that. One of the very first conversations
you said was I my goal as a businessman and
in life is to not screw anyone over. And just
you saying that made us so much more comfortable through
the whole process, and since then it was I mean,
(19:20):
I didn't have any sort of stress through it.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
I hope you know not that this is where the
podcast needs to go.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
But like in the process, I'm not the old man
by any means, but like been through this for fifteen
years now, Like I just wanted to make sure that
you guys were comfortable and knew like the pros and
cons and hopefully through that process, like, hey, guys, we
can do this. This is what we're proposing, but you
should maybe think about this right And and so I
really wanted, I truly want the best for you guys.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You guys had a great idea.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
There's no sense in you know, me coming in and
make and all the money, you know, doing I wanted it.
You know, we've got our calculators to make sure margins
are where they are. Like, I wanted to take care
of everybody, and I feel like having the inventors of
this stay on board still want to be involved. Is
more important to me than me just being because then
the story turns in like oh, the big guy with
(20:17):
the money Boden idea and ran with it right where
it's like no, you guys literally and we're going to
get into this, Like you guys helped me. You guys
were my design team the whole way through this process.
Like I'm helping, I'm providing ideas, but you guys are
the ones as well, you know, sitting down in these
you know meetings, figuring out how to fix the issues,
everything that's going on, you know, as we go to
(20:38):
mass production. So to me, that teamwork is way more
important than me grabbing it running with it. And it's
it's not how I wanted to tell the story.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
And this whole deal.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I didn't want it to be like we bought an idea,
you guys got cut out and here here phelps is
like crushing the KIV and tube, you know, wanting not
I didn't do it for publicity, even though I'm telling
it on the podcast. It was very important to like
keep your guys' name on it, right, It doesn't make
sense to like wipe out Kivan and it's Phelps' transformer
tube or Phelps's coil lock, like it didn't feel right,
(21:11):
and so really wanted to make sure we did this
thing right just as much as like bring a cool
product to market.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
So yeah, that was that was important.
Speaker 5 (21:21):
Really, we were super excited when we saw that, and
we're like, also we were kind of mad because we're like, oh,
that logo is way cooler.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Than what we.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Well, that's that's so funny. And Jason, it's cool to
see your team and I've been able to work with
some of your team at the expo and uh see
you know, and I don't know if you knew this.
I was actually in a small meeting with was Sondie
and she's great, and it's just it takes a village
right to build what you've built. And when it was
(21:50):
just Steven and I, you know, we I built my
first logo just playing on a Photoshop and Stephen was
is this product started from a line? You know, and
any any feature or anything he had a YouTube and
so I kind of wanted to touch on right before
when we'd had a pretty solid prototype that I wanted
(22:10):
to maybe show some friends or take hunting and not
be hiding it all the time because I kind of
knew we had something. We were talking with my grandpa
and and with your family, you're always trying to get like, hey,
is this a good idea? You think I'm going to
be successful? And they're always like, oh, yeah, you're so great.
Everything you do is great. And so you're almost like,
am I like a kid on a trampoline who like
does a front flip? And they're like you're the best,
(22:32):
you know, And so like, is this really a good idea?
But I can't ask anyone? And so we asked my
grandpa and he goes, he's looking at it. He goes, well,
what I know of elk hunters is I know guys
will buy wafers that's covered and pissed. So if they're
willing to buy that, I'm sure they're willing to buy this.
And that got me like right, you know, And so
(22:52):
I went to go file that provisional or that non
provisional patent, which is the first step in the patent process.
And I'd looked and we were trying to cut money
anywhere we can, and so I looked at what it
would take to have a patent attorney drapped up and
it was like twelve hundred. But then through you, you know, YouTube,
university and other forms, I learned that that's a that's
(23:13):
one of the things that you can do on your
own that like legally, and so I filed it and
I would just advise anyone to save yourself a year
two three of just stress have a patent attorney doing it,
because the whole time, I'm like, this is what's going
to screw this up. Yeah, I filed that wrong. I
didn't put in the right information. Jason. I don't think
you realized how stressed I was. And then talking with
(23:34):
you guys, and then you know, it was it was
just funny because I'm like, this whole deal is going
to go down and crumble because I was being cheap.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Now our patent our council actually gave you kudos for
they didn't believe that just two guys that didn't have
any counsel.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
That was your guys applications. So you got good job.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I'll hear that you didn't want that felt better than
getting my like college diploma. When she said that, I
was like shit, I was like, I don't know. I
kind of up in the meeting was like, hey, so
will you just tell me what you thought that. She goes,
oh it was great.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah, I can work with this.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I can work with this.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
That was funny. So fast forward.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
We get all the business done, we're moving forward, right,
we've signed on all the dotted lines, we're able to
invest in tooling. Now is when like I can finally
start to help in this process besides just being a
reviewer of the product. When you've taken something that's three
D printed, and for those that don't know, three D
printing is awesome because anything you dream up can be made. Well,
(24:33):
guess what in the real world when you want to
mass produce these with automated parts, it doesn't work that way. Right,
there's coils. Now you've got coils. Well, how the heck
do you twist these things and get these coils into
a piece.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Of hard plastic? How do you.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Blow molding, which we've used on a lot of our
other tubes, isn't accurate enough to line up coils and
make sure that you know blow molding. You get good
external dimensions, but you are really limited to your shot
and how the shot spun on the inside or like
where the materials at so you know, the idea of
coils and all this stuff wasn't gonna work. So this
ended up being I've did lots of plastic injection before
(25:09):
on our smaller parts, but this is my first like
plastic injection beegle tube, Like, how are.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
We going to do this?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
What?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
What materials are available?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
And so we go through a process called DFM, which
is design and manuft Design for Manufacturability process, which you know,
you get these big reports on every part you make.
So on this tube we basically get what I call
the mouthpiece, the mid body, the main body, and then
the end cap correct and so we get a report
(25:40):
on each one of those parts. They're letting us know
concerns on sync, where parts are too thick, they're letting
us know where there's not enough draft. And so for
a lot for ninety nine percent people out there, draft
doesn't mean anything. But you can't slide a bar out
if something gets cast over like an underhook, right, So
you imagine, you know, a part that gets wrapped around,
(26:01):
you can't pull the bar back out, or you can't
slide a poll bar back out, And so we have
to make sure we've got at least a half a
degree or you know, sometimes more sometimes less logos become
a pain, right because you can't slide something past the
positive logo, so you're always looking at pulling the part
like skinny to big, you know. But then that doesn't
(26:22):
always work because if you've got recess or you know,
like this tube's got two corrugations in it, so now
you're looking at all, right, if we split the tool
in half and then start sliding stuff right, and so
it becomes a very very complex tool. And I we
fought sync a lot, which is ultimately when you guys,
you know, if you checked out this kuive intube, by
(26:44):
now we've got little hexagon you know, hexagonal pieces at
varying depths, right, And that was our solution to aesthetics.
But then also it was really to remove material, not
removing material for any other reason that it costs anymore
that it needed to look this way. It was that
if the plastic was that thick there, we were going
to get bad sinc which we'll touch on here in
(27:05):
a little bit. Like one of our major issues. When
we tested the first one, we had thin so it's
not thin metal on the part itself, but it's thin
metal on the tooling. Right, So if you can imagine,
in order to make this exact replica this part, your
part may make the tooling be very very thin or
(27:25):
like razor edged, and it's not gonna last. It's not
gonna be durable. So we were moving coil spacings back.
We were doing what else, guys did we run into
We ran into sinc We were run in the you know,
moving the coils back.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
We tried to make the pieces we mane to make. Yeah,
positive stops.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
We kind of added those positive stops, and so the
pieces don't really ever we I call them a positive stop,
but it really prevents us from like, cause the coil
can just keep going, but this will prevent it from
like it gives it kind of a bottom out, right,
so it doesn't want to keep, you know, pushing it
off out of itself.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Yeah, and a lot of a lot of the changes
that we would make. And I'm gonna kind of speak
like Kyle and I throughout the whole process, not only here.
There's a lot of times when people will have a
great idea, but it's getting that idea to the guy
who knows how to work at the computer. Kyle and
I would sit there and kind of argue about making
a change like the hexagonal shake to get rid of
the sync.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
He was telling me.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
I remember, I wanted to look like like a was
it a diamond that you'd press in? And I remember
looking at what are you talking at?
Speaker 3 (28:31):
What?
Speaker 4 (28:32):
And we would just try and model.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Like and diamond would need different and I'm trying to
tell him you would press it in further, and I clicked.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
I was like, oh, might know exactly what we're talking about.
And well, I ended up kind of making this part
that was almost like a mold piece that I combined
in the feature and it cut and it worked perfectly,
and we offset it and I gave it angles. And
as soon as I understood what draft was, because first
of all, what is draft? I remember you brought that up,
I thought, what is this crap? This draft thing? Yeah,
as soon as we figured that out, it was it
(29:02):
was great. You know, that was that was a big
learning curve for me. So I really really enjoyed that process.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Yeah, and I and you know that's something that I
feel like we would make changes over and over again,
and then we would stop and be like, we're making
changes for this material. So if we were sitting there
and making changes for PLA over and over again, we're like, well,
what we're about to make is not PLA, And so
you almost waste your time a little bit because there's
(29:28):
different cooling rates and there's different ways that material interacts
after it's it's built, and so that was something that's
extremely hard. Even I feel like I thought it would
be more streamlined, but you even when they send those
products over, you don't know exactly how it's going to interact.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, and we're doing our best on our side, right
because we've got a lot of money at stake.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
We're putting a lot of money into this tooling. I
keep my finances or my.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Company finance and myself, but this is by far the
most expensive tooling we've ever built.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Time sixt we're still paying on it, but very expensive.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
But at some point, like you're saying, you know, you
have to, we had a very good liaison, my design
team that works between ourselves and the manufacturer, also an engineer,
also a materials engineer. Like we're all putting our heads together,
like is this gonna work? Is it gonna shrink at
the right rate? And we're gonna end up in the
right spot. Are we gonna if we do get some sync,
(30:22):
like where does this end up?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
And so and me being like the one beating the drum.
Hey guys, we're running out.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Of time, right, So this not only not only do
we have to make changes, but I need them like
very quick because I'm I'm helping with some of the
ideas on the changes, not a lot of them, trying
to keep the scene on schedule, checking in daily, Like
all right, if.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
We get these you know, we get these changes d
by thursday, can we go?
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Well?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Then the thing that.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I feel like when I was just designing roads or bridges,
I would make the change once and it would just stick.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
It's like we'd make changes what would create another set
of issues. So we get the DFM report back and like, well,
that's great, we've the thin metal issue. Now we've got
this other issue that's popped up or a brittle edge
or something. Yeah, And so it was what three or
four or five iterations, We're finally ready for our first
T zero sample. We we get through all of this,
(31:14):
we're testing stuff, we're trying to train up the facility,
and it's making them kind of how things should fit
you know, the end cap and I get the first
part shipped to me, and this if I remember at
the small and threaded into the medium end pretty well
it fit.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
The middle body will not go through.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
The large end is extremely tight, and I'm like, well,
this is not this is not gonna work like and
this is not functional for a hunter. And then the
worst part was I wanted to put the end caped
on and it fell in like it was way too
the end cap was oversized or our end cap was undersized,
or the end of the tube was oversized or a
combination thereof. Well, this is like the most frustrating part
(31:58):
for me because I I've got all kinds of ID
gauges OD gauge's calipers. But now we're sitting here in
task with like how did this happen? Like what is
the cause? What part needs fixed? Does both of them?
Is it stacking tolerances? Is it one or the other?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Like?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
What caused this?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
You guys got I sent I overnighted yours to you.
I can remember swinging by some FedEx store. Get them
to you guys, so we can start to work on
this together. You guys realized we did get some like
sink in the one area that got tight. We we
realized that we got some sync on the end cap.
And we're all kind of sitting there like, huh, because
(32:38):
now you have the idea to either go back and
spray weld your tool if you want to, if you
want to add material, or you can keep machining and
going out. So we're trying to like with with keeping
the schedule as close as we can, like what's the
right solution here, quickest, cheapest, all of those things to
get us a workable, serviceable product.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, and I YouTube stressed, and since I wasn't the designer,
I was like, what do you guys gonna do? I will,
but I could tell like Steven was stressed, and I
we we'd sit there in his basement and just like
we've done before and just iterations and we'd come up
with five ten different solutions and then throw you out
the best three and just having that experience through you know,
(33:20):
years of you doing this, and it was like you've mentioned, like,
this isn't my first rodeo dealing with tolerances, you know,
some some of the other. And I it's funny too,
because when you go through the process, you start to
really appreciate what other people accomplished in products or some
of the other products you have, and how you know
the reads the way that you can get them to
fit into some of your other products and stuff. So
(33:41):
and that's where Steve and I and it was so
cool that you kept us involved because you're totally you
are totally you know, capable of doing that, but you
helped you allowed us to to still stay in the
mix and and help fix our own problems.
Speaker 5 (33:57):
Always kept me really nervous because I'd be modeling stuff
and making a change and I send it to you
and be like, man, does he know I'm not a
mechanical engineer. Does he know this isn't what I do
for this is a hobby, you know, So I'd be
kind of nervous about it. But everything worked out pretty well.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
No, you you crushed it, steven On.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
You know a lot of times just an idea guy,
or I do have a mechanical engineer that I've consulted
with in the past, but I didn't want to.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I wanted this to be you guys. And we we
powered through and got there.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
So I'm stoked at how everything turned out. But let's
so fast forward we're trying to come up with a solution.
It's not really going to be in the design. The
design is what it is. Like we know that works
on a piece that is can stick to spec. We
know that, but we've either got it, We've got to
just we've got to either make a guess amant on
if well, if that shrinks too much, then we need
(34:47):
to open it up another five thouur tenth thou to
get it to fit. Right, is there are the coil
still going to hook? Like now I start to feel
nervous because there's some risk and in our decisions we
go back. I call it the material board, like are
there some materials that just get you out of this?
And this is where I'm not gonna I've told everybody
in the past our tubes are all HDPE. You're not
(35:09):
gonna get to find out what this one was. So
we this tube ended up being a result of something
that shrunk a little bit less but could still fit
in the same tool and it would react in the tool,
and it was a little bit of a blessing in disguise,
maybe a little bit of a godsend. But why what
we were trying to do is always worked for a
(35:29):
tube in the past. This new material that we use
on this is, in my opinion, and I'm not I
get a chance to use carbon fiber beegle tubes. I
use metal aluminum bugle tubes. Plastic. We kind of got
backed into a material that makes an amazing beegle tube.
Louder I feel it's a little more rich than what
(35:50):
we had been testing previously, and so in order to
create less shrink, we ended up landing on a material
that in my opinion, is a little bit better on
an elk tube and ultimately solved all the issues basically
there at the end.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
So like just it's how it works.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Sometimes it doesn't always work that way, but through material
selection we cleaned up some of our issues. We did
have to make us what we did have to make
the end cap a little bit bigger, got the snap
fit to be very very positive. We were also nervous
that if it snapped, the original material we were using
has more of a memory. So as we were worried,
(36:28):
all right, your stuff an end cap and it's not
quite tight enough.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
It gets hot.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Now that end CAP's going to mold that or the
the end of the barrel is going to mold the
end cap. Is it going to fall out next time?
Very very positive, click, We've got now materials tough. We
got rid of as much of the sticking on overtightening
on both ends, and really just ended up on hopefully
(36:52):
a product that you guys can be super proud of
your guys's brain child that I was able to maybe
just polish along the way or luck into some decisions
that made it even better.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Well, and that's what was so cool was when you'd
gotten that sample of that new material. We the initially
the material was to avoid all the problems that were
taking place with with tolerancing or sticking or this or
that and another. And then the text we got was
got the new material, and the first thing you said
was it's loud. Yeah, And that was like sweet, like
(37:23):
that icing on top of the cake and you're like,
oh yeah, and everything else works. And so that was
because first and foremost, we're trying to create a product
that that functions, but then what's the product do? Yeah,
we're trying to be out there and be loud. So
that was great.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
I do a lot of what I would call like
standard testing in my office, in my you know, step
out of my office door on the upstairs of our shop.
And it's the same place, same reads. And I told
my wife after the very first one, the final final
production in olive Green, I came up here and cranked
on it for five six minutes make sure everything worked.
I'm like my ears hurt, you know, for a couple
(38:07):
hours afterwards. And so it's the same tubes I use
up here now. The metal the carbon are both loud,
but this kivin is every bit as loud, and it's
it's got great back pressure.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
And I love that back pressure terminology because you know,
being I like to you know, Kyle's the big elk
hunor he's taken me. I'm not as you know, experienced
as he is, but I remember when we were we
get some feedback. It's got really good back pressure, that
end cap, you know. And it's hilarious because the one
I was initially when we were kind of making that
that end cap was had a different purpose.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
It had nothing to do with back pressure, but the.
Speaker 5 (38:43):
Shape of it and the way that it holds the
pieces in it just seems to be a really really
good and it kind of it kind of amplifies and
bounces anyways, it ended up being really really good with
that back pressure and that you know I like to
walk around.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
So oh yeah, that was intentional. Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Now it's a it's a home run. Like I say,
it's got our logo on one side, but truly, you know,
you guys did the heavy lifting and we're we're stoked
to bring it out.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Uh. One last thing we started.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
We got those tea what i'd call T one samples,
the second set of samples, and I'm like, these things
are way too shiny, Like I've ordered everything in like
a C three finished. So just these things that keep
coming up when you're trying to get stuff out, like days,
you know, every single day matters, and so we had
to have them go back and like, well, that is
truly a C three, which I don't believe you because
(39:33):
it's literally it's it's a it's what was left when
you mild the tool out like you guys, it's it's
got shiny sections, it's got doll sections, it's.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Whatever tool you know, end mill, ball, mill and ball
and mill whatever they were using to make that section.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
You guys didn't spray it after, so you know, kind
of kind of fought with the manufacturer a little bit like, no,
you guys didn't.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I'm not paying for that.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
You guys did not give us a C three finish,
But now that we're here, give me like a D
one finish.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
So we've got this thing.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
So one of the downsides, maybe the only downside to
the Kiven Tube is its modularity prevents any cover from
going on up besides a short section of the big end,
which we don't provide at this point. So that's why
me being a hunter making sure we get everything out
of this weekend, we go to that very very dull,
olive green matt finish. You know, maybe somewhere in the
(40:24):
future we provide some little cover for it, but as
of now, the Kiven Tube will be completely exposed plastic
on the outside, which is just a nature of the function.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Yeah, yeah, and that intention being that it'll fit anywhere
in its backpacks and a couple holders, I mean they
were they're all built to spec for kind of that
Nalgene bottle that that outdoorsy water bottle size, and so
the bezel is built around that size, so it'll fit
in any of any your your pack pockets. And that's
where that's where it stays. And and it h you
(41:01):
can you can even take that piece out and keep
it on the end of the call. I've had I've
had some people do that and tighten up because there's
a little strap around some of those pieces and keep
that on there if you wanted to keep the camera
on the end.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
But yeap, And one of the cool things is you
don't got to extend all three sections. You can just
extend the mouthpiece and the middle section if you want
less volume, a little tighter sound.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
So it's it's got a ton of a ton of utility.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I kind of joke at the sportsman shows or play
around with it like it's a great gobble tube. If
you're trying to gobble in the turkey and you have
it completely condensed, you know, if you have it half
if you have it halfway out, you know, it's a
great coyote call.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
So it truly is a good call. Might they are
available now, you know, at all of.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Your your favorite outdoor retailers, and then also on the
website a little shameless plug there. But our team crushed it.
So back to the schedule, we get this, we pull
the trigger. They found one more issue right that the
end of one of the coils was collapsing, and once
again we had to make like a split second decision.
They basically proposed us with three options. You know, I
(42:08):
just like our stuff to look good as well as function.
They said one would just be a cosmetic issue. But
we ended up you know, cleaning it up with option three,
making it kind of slide in better. So that was
like one last second thing, and then got the tubes in.
We built three thousand of them, assembled them, boxed them
in two days, and yeah, they're shipping out. Matter of fact,
(42:29):
as we're recording the email, I just got a report
that a very large chunk of them went out today
to all the retailers. So today is July first, so
we're this will air on July tenth. So yeah, it's
just kind of cool to see the process, see everything moving, and.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
You know, praise the.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Lord whatever you whatever you believe in. But uh, this
thing like barely made it in by the skin of
our teeth.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
You know.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
I was worried that some of these big retailers would
cancel us.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
You know, they had canceled dates by July one, but
we today is July one, and everything made it and
is out and going to be available.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
No cool, and it was. It was so fun watching
everyone's effort and the fact that you know, and I
mentioned this before, you kept us in the loop and
that was so cool to see because from a base
from where we started and Steven's basement just designing that
that Star Wars sword Style tube, being able to watch
a product go to market, I cannot express the amount
(43:26):
of steps and challenges and everything that are faced. And
then when you're Steven and Kyle Bradshaw and then you
have Jason Phelps, who are who's helping you to the
finish line, and then watching you go through this process,
it was it was a huge learning experience and I'm
it it was such a good decision for us because
for us to finish this thing off without your expertise
(43:50):
and to watch you, you know, you're saying, by the
grace of God, but that Jason, that watching you got
it there at the end. I mean the way that
you can push in your business sense working with the
manufacturers and everything, and then your business relationships with the
with the distributors. I'm sure you know everything that you've
built from Phelps game calls is really what I think
(44:10):
got this same are in time.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
And it's just I don't want everybody to be an
engineer or an entrepreneur or think they can do this.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
But you guys got to see it.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
It's weird, like until you know, you don't know right,
it's it's but now that you've gone through the process once,
like I could probably do that again, Like it's not
that scary anymore. There's a lot of work that, don't
get me wrong, there's a lot of work between you know,
us talking and where we got to. But what else
you're gonna do with that time anyways, You're gonna be
working somewhere else. So it's just it's just a process.
And and I think a lot of people and this
(44:43):
this this extends the life and and any tough situation
is like you just don't give up on it, like
we from the time I knew it was a good
idea and had some merit in the ELK cunning world,
like that was all I needed, Like I can navigate this.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
It's just time effort.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Sometimes it could be too much money, don't get me wrong,
but you know, as long as as long as the
finances all make sense, it's just effort and I'm gonna
be doing I have to show up to this place
ten hours a day anyways, might as well be working
on something that I like and passionate about.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
And so, yeah, it is a it is a.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
A difficult process, sometimes nuanced, sometimes complex, a lot.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Of moving parts.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
But once you've went through it once, hopefully this will
give you guys confidence to uh, you know, tackle anything
else that that comes your way. And and that's that's
a great segue into like the future of Kyvan because
we we have the Kyvin Beagle two.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
But you guys are doing other stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
I'm knowing you guys, getting to know you better over
the last year a year plus, Like, I'm sure you
guys got more stuff like what's next on the in
the basement of Stephen Bradshaw and Kyle dreaming of crazy ideas.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
Top secret.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
You're still trying to still trying to file those pat
provisional patents.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
You know that.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
So we definitely have like a bundle of ideas things
that we've been prototyping and something that Steve and I
have looked at and I really haven't aired this out
to anywhere or anyone else, would be that you know,
maybe kind ofn turns into a business that helps other
people get their ideas to Like maybe it's something that
(46:18):
you come to us and we have the knowledge to
know how to get your product to market, you know,
maybe creating different business relationships and rapid prototyping, you know,
along the side of some of the things that we
have in the works which I won't won't use. I
won't sell anything I haven't used, So a lot of
things that we've created, I'll be you know, hunting with
(46:39):
this fall and and maybe even handing out to some
other people I know. But uh, but that's kind of
where that's kind of where we're at with it. We're
really excited because this just initial product, this our flagship
product is what we call it. You you really do
need a little bit of capital to start. Like everyone
(47:00):
you know you can you can go out and get
business loans and do this, that and another, but to
have the initial startup and I think you mentioned this
in one of your podcasts, like you need you need,
you do need some money to get in front of
people right and and to sell your product and do
it right. We definitely.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
Know that there's.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Some challenges to just getting out there in the hunting space.
Like you know, there's always room for entry, but to
be loud and to for people to know your name.
And you got to go to the expos. You got
to go to the TACK events and and and create
all those relationships and stuff. And and we're I think
we're we're I think you'll see us.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Around Yeah good good, So yeah, I think you guys
are you know, this is this is my uh my,
not you guys. You know, you guys are great guys
and uh some you know people I wouldn't has stated
to tell other people to do business with. You know,
seen your guys' thought process and and this this is
you know, this is not not to blow smoke to anybody,
(48:03):
but like I've always felt like the people.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Now, you gotta have a good product. But once there's
a good product.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Like the people behind it are more important to me
than than maybe the product itself.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
And so I'll vouch for you guys any day of
the week.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Stoke to get to know you guys work on this
and then yeah, now we just got to crush this
thing and and uh, you know, take care of take
care of our marketing side and make sure everybody you
know has one of these moving forward.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Maybe kill some elk along the way.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Yeah, yeah, well we'll see if I can, if I
can figure out figure that out.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
That's what I joked with you. I was like, so
now that everything now that is for sale, right, I
think Steven he said he had a plan for us
all to go hunting hunting together on the hick read.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
Or on the.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah, we'll have to if this, if this thing takes
off like we think it will, well maybe put that
in the budget for next year. We go down and
gate and hickorya tags. No, it's been awesome getting to
know you guys. Now, well now you kind of told
a hunt story about your first dog. You guys have
any hunting stories you want to share before we close
this thing up and wrap it up. It seems like
(49:07):
we've been stuck on the tube the whole time, which
is cool, but I want to give you guys a
chance to talk about your favorite hunts or anything you
guys have did the school or that you have coming up.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
Yeah, you know we're I've never drawn heck, I've never
really drawn a good tag. Everything we've done over the
counter and hunt Idaho, Wyoming, I've bounced all around I'm
always dragging Stephen long too. He's got he's got kids,
young kids, so his priority.
Speaker 5 (49:34):
Struggle shifted struggle to get away a ton. But I
try to go at least once or twice a years. Luckily,
le basically my guide. We have said any many elk
and many many deer, and I won't say where. But
it's been a lot of time.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think it'd be
fun just to give a snidbit into like I think,
just some advice, if that's okay, Jason, Yeah, yeah, I mean,
so if I were to think of an elk hunting story,
and like I said, I haven't been elk and very long,
I mean twenty seventeen and started watching after that initial
call in that I mentioned, I started watching YouTube videos
(50:08):
and started watching you know, how to call, how to
make those different noises? And there's no secret sauce. But
there's so much hunting information out there right now. I mean,
I mentioned YouTube University is a real thing. The amount
of information that you can get just watching YouTube videos
and reading books. And in a short time. You know,
I've killed elk every year since then, I've killed a bowl.
(50:31):
There was one year I did not my brother William.
He drew a limited entry elk tag down on the Mantai,
and I would encourage anyone if you want to learn
stuff about elk, you can do all that. But in
the field, especially when you have a tag opportunity or
someone in your family or friend has a tag opportunity,
and you can utilize the experience that goes along with
(50:54):
being in areas with elk. You know, I mean a
lot of these over the counter units, they're just so
hard to be into elk every day and to learn
their habits, especially when they're heavily pressured. But on that
on that Manti hunt, you know, we it was a
ten day hunt at the time. We hunted just just
about every day, and going into different canyons and calling
(51:15):
in different bowls and walking up to maybe where elk
used to be and learning, okay, this is why they're here,
you know, this is these are the features that you
should be looking for, and and then then talking to
elk and okay, why is it, why did that elk
come in versus where this one didn't, And just having
an abundance of elk that you can learn from really
in in in the sense that you just wouldn't get
(51:37):
that on every over the counter hunt. So if you're
just trying to learn how to elk hunt, and I
would say, go go on somebody's limited entry elk hunt
and and get out there and do that. That's where
most my my elk hunt knowledge I think came from
was was doing that and then jumping into those over
the counter units and taking all that. But like Jason,
(52:02):
you know, any of these shows, Dirk, they're very willing
to help you to on. Like I remember, Dirk doesn't
know this too. I went up to him one time.
I was like, hey, how do I sound. You just
run up and you blow in their face and they go, oh,
well look I would try this maybe a little bit,
or do this that another and it's fun.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
But no, no, that's great advice.
Speaker 4 (52:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
I always tell everybody. Number one, which piggybacks on yours,
is don't go out there and expect to kill the
biggest bulls right off the bat, Like there's steps.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
There's levels to this game.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
So you know, you hear all these kids nowadays there's
levels of the game, like there are levels to hunting,
Like that's it's not near as easy to go kill
and now it can't happen. You know, go kill the
big six point, you know, the biggest bowl in the mountain. Go,
you know, kill kill a cow. First kill a small bowl,
and then work your way up. And like you said,
great units opportunity where you can work a bowl every morning,
(52:54):
every evening, so much more valuable than spending three days
trying to even find an oak. Now there's there is value.
And what did it take to find those elk? And
where did you finally find them? But you know, when
you do that, you only get to work three, four
or five bowls a year. Where where I grew up,
I would get the hard to you know, even not
necessarily such special units, but like very hard to get
(53:15):
to spots where I would see twenty thirty legal bowls
in a day.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
Like I got lots of opportunity.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
I could screw up two or three times in a morning,
two or three times at night and just run through
that over and over, which definitely flattens that learning curve,
which there aren't over the counter spots like that around
here anymore. But those special units that have lots of
elk can still produce that sort of an experience. And
I can I agree one hundred percent that you want
to get better elk hunting and YouTube university is a
(53:43):
is a real thing, but sometimes it doesn't translate real well.
It can give you the basis and the knowledge, but
I have just found over talking to a lot of
people and sometimes year after year, five years after five
years after you know, over a long period of time,
some of these people are just reluctant to do it
no matter how many times I say, well, you need
do this or you know, think about doing that. There's
like I can't bugle when I'm that closed, you know,
(54:04):
and or whatever it may be, not saying that's always
right answer. But yeah, you still go out there and
develop your own system the way you want to l hunt.
Make sure you have a little bit of success along
the way. Otherwise you should probably change what you're doing.
But you figured it out for yourself, you know, go
out and try something, does it work, does it not?
(54:24):
Did it work again, did it not? And eventually just
you know, reel it in. So no, great great advice, Kyle,
That's great.
Speaker 3 (54:32):
Yeah, and kind of a closing note. I wanted to
just I can't. I could sit here and lift list
off people. But the hunting industry has an immense amount
of support, and we had support from family members, to friends,
to influencers in the community and just people in the
hunting space. It's a good it's a good place to
(54:52):
be in it. People want to see succeed and if
anybody out there has ideas and the ideas to make
products better, I'd say just try it, you know, get
out there, go to some of these events, and I
think you people would be surprised how supportive the hunting
industry is. It's great.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
Yeah, that's it's a pretty cool group.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
So once again, can't thank you guys for coming on
the podcast, and enough can't thank you guys for giving
us a chance to be a part of your your
flagship product, your first product. And here's the kind of
crushing it here in the next two or three ten
years to have a feeling the idea and the technology
behind that, Kuyvin Coyle lock is what we're going to
(55:33):
build a lot of our new stuff on. I'm moving
forward so excited about that. You guys have a great
summer and we'll stay in touch for sure, as.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
You know, fall approaches.
Speaker 3 (55:43):
Thanks Jason, Thanks appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
Yeah, take care
Speaker 4 (56:00):
The back hand s
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