Growing up Black with Amber Coleman-Mortley

Amidst Black Lives Matter protests this year, The Ellises had to face one of their biggest challenges as parents raising Black boys. Having the Black talk. Khadeen and Devale are joined by civics educator Amber Coleman-Mortley to help them have the talk about race in America with their boys. Dead Ass.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up, good people. Our kids are lucky to
grow up in the error of the Internet, where information
is available right at their fingertips. But sometimes the Internet
and even in school curriculums leave our kids with more questions,
and they look to us for the answers. The Ellis
Is and the Time Machine is a book for kids
and adults that answers the questions our kids have been
asking all year. Why do we say Black Lives Matter?

(00:22):
We answer this question while looking back in American history
through the eyes of our young black children. Get your
kids a copy of The Ellises and the Time Machine
Why Do We Say Black Lives Matter? Available now at
Amazon dot com. Hey, we're the Ellises. You may know

(00:49):
us from posting funny videos with our boys and reading
each other publicly as a form of therapy. Wait, I'll
make you need therapy most days. And a more important
thing to mention, we're married, Yes, sir, we are. We
created this podcast to open dialogue about some of life's
most taboo topics, things most folks don't want to talk

(01:10):
about through the lens of a millennium married couple. Dead
ads to the term that we say every day. So
when we say dead ass. We're actually saying facts, the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. We're about
to take pillow toof to a whole new level. Dead
ass starts right now. So on this this story time

(01:36):
is a very important to me because this story time
we'll bring everybody to the point in my life when
I realized that my blackness mattered to me and to
everybody else. I remember walking into the living room when
I was seventy eight years old. My parents were sitting
in look on the couch where they typically are, but
my mom looked a little bit more pensive, you know
when your parents typically on the couch and you're like,

(01:58):
I don't know if they fight in the man he's
my way in there. So I walk in there and
it seems a little tense and I'm like, I don't
know if I don't understand. But I see my mom
doing the church rock, you know, you do the church rock,
So I'm like, what's she looking at. I look on
on TV and I see the video plane was a
grainy video of a man just being beaten with with
sticks and rods, and I was like, yo, who are

(02:20):
they beating like that? And my mom was just like,
you know, we're not sure yet. And I said, well,
who you know who's beating that man like that? And
he's like, it's the police. So I was like, yeo,
they're gonna get in trouble. Like they're on camera beating
somebody like this, They're gonna get in trouble. And I've
seen the uncertainty in my mom's eyes when I said that,
and she, you know, she kind of gave me the

(02:40):
and then she was just like, you know, hopefully fast forward,
you know, months later, Um, we're watching the news and
my mom is real pensive. Again. Of course I'm not
old enough to understand what's going on, but I see
her this time. She's pensive, her eyes are little watery.
She's talking to my father, my father's you know, I
can't believe this. I can't believe this. They start calling
my aunt to my uncles and I can't remember hearing

(03:02):
them saying that, can you believe they got off? And
I was like, what how? And it was at that
point that my mom had to explain to me what
the situation was in America with black people and the police.
And it was at that point where she started talking

(03:22):
to me about everything had trans that had transpired prior
to where we are now, and I remember feeling mad.
I remember feeling like I couldn't trust white people, and
then I remember being hurt that someone would consider me
less than because of the color of my skin. And
it was at that point that I realized what my

(03:42):
blackness was in America. So when I think about your
story time and the feelings that you felt, it feels
as though a piece of innocence is taken from you,
after you're robbed of a certain care free living that
you once had. And to think that we have to
have these conversations with our children at eight and nine

(04:03):
years old or is whatever age you feel like they
can comprehend it, it was something that was heartbreaking just
for us. So Deval and I did plan to have
the conversation with the boys um at the time, it
was just all parents plan on having that cover having
the conversation exactly, And I remember the two of us
being very like teary eyed about having to even do
that and wondering when the right time was going to be.

(04:25):
So considering everything, I felt like our hand was forced,
and it came down to Devol sitting the boys down.
Of course, with me um and having the talk. So
what was going through your mind like leading onto those moments.
I mean to be honest, it caught me off guard
because first, as a parent, I'm trying to process it.
You know, we had I'm on all get shot in

(04:45):
broad Daylight's gunned down, Then we had the Brianna Taylor's
story come out. Then we watched George Floyd be murdered
at the hands of a cop. So if my first
thing is I'm just I'm fucking pissed, I don't I
don't want to have to sit down and compartmentalize taking
this anger, putting it aside so I can then speak
to my child. What made me even more angry was
that my eight year old is now asking me questions

(05:08):
about why everyone is so angry, you know, why did
the cop do that? And I'm like, oh my gosh,
now I have to try to explain to him what
is going on. And it kind of reminded me of
when I had to explain to him about Santa Claus.
You know, this is when your parents there's a certain
level of innocence you try to protect because you don't
want to tell your your kids the truth. And then

(05:28):
once the innocence is going, you see them like lose hope,
you know what I'm saying. So I was like, damn,
we had to Santa Claus talk. You know, he cried
about that. That was hot breaking, you know, regardless of
how you feel about Santa Claus or religions, it was
a way for them to be happy. That's all I
cared about, you know. So now he's asking me questions
and I'm explaining to him the way my mom explained

(05:50):
it to me. We started with history, we went we
went back to slavery, and then from slavery, we went
to the Civil War, and the Civil War, we went
to Jim Crow and and I went through the whole gamut. See,
not to cut you off, but I think it was
super important that we take the approach as parents to
bring the historical, factual information behind it when approaching this

(06:13):
to talk about it's not just based off of feelings
or just oh I just don't like you because of
your skin color, like, there are systems in place that
will keep us down, you know what I mean. So
us as parents realized that it was important for us
to do that, to make it about facts and about history.
So the children know that this is not just something

(06:34):
that's going off of emotion. And I remember, you know,
the way we teach our kids now is differently than
our parents told us. Our parents still taught us with
a way of trying to protect us. But you know,
my mom. I remember my mom saying to me everything
that happened in the country happened, you know, since slavery.
And then she also said there are certain people in
the world who are just evil. And to hear that

(06:54):
kind of left things abstract for me, and man had
me thinking that people just didn't like me because of
my black this which there are some people who are
just evil. But what I did differently was I explained
Jackson through economics and said the reason why they marginalized
black people from slavery to uh Jim Crow or to
mass incarceration was to make money. So then it kind

(07:15):
of gives him a reason as to why things were happening.
And I saw it like a lightbulb kind of go
off from wait a minute, so all this has to
do with money and saying, yes, it's classism, but no,
one just doesn't like that. They didn't, just God didn't.
Just because I remember having this this feeling if God
is real, And I remember being nine years old and saying,
if God is real, why would he choose my people

(07:36):
to be oppressed? If God loves us, why would he
allow us to go through all of this pain? And
I couldn't. I couldn't reconcile that at nine, So then
you start to have those feelings of God can't be
real because God would not allow us as people to
be tortured here on earth. This kid out of here?
Where did he come from? I questioned everything and I

(07:59):
got bub But it all started from that, like, you know,
having to hear that my people were chosen to be slaves,
and it was just like why why? You know? And
then you know, they tell us about the Hebrews being
slaves and they sent Moses to save them, and I'm like, well,
y'all sent Dr King and they killed him, so like
so what I mean, we stuck in this like these

(08:19):
are the things that are happening in my mind until
I started to educate myself as I got older. And
I want to approach Jackson with the same type of
education so he can reconcile within themselves and income to
terms with the fact that there was a reason why
things are and it's not just just because I hate,
because it really isn't just because they hate. And we
also talked about the context of which our children's experience

(08:39):
will be with race now that we've moved across country
from Brooklyn, New York to you know, California. It's just
it's such a different experience for our children now, UM,
just based off of the schooling that their their experience
and differences that that UM Jackson, of course, because he's enrolled.
He was in the fourth grade now, but um, being

(09:01):
in a diverse class situation, which he was, he's the
only black child in his class, you know what I mean,
So there's always the conversation has to be had when
he's the only one. Of course, because he didn't experience
that coming from Brooklyn, is school was super diverse. That's
what Brooklyn is. Where a huge melting pot. We're known
to be that in New York. So we m actually

(09:23):
have someone coming on shortly, our guest today, UM, who
is going to speak with us a little bit more
about unpacking racism and how we can do that with
our children. It's hard to educate them and I think
it's it's an amazing thing for sure, to be able
to bring somebody in who's kind of like an expert
on because we have so many people asking questions and

(09:45):
you know, how did you After we did the conversation
with Jackson and we decided to record it, and we
decided to put it on our YouTube channel, and when viral,
a lot of people were asking about you know, like, wow,
I can't believe you guys recorded that. And I will
say I was very apprehensive at for is because I
do still feel like a lot of things I want
to keep personal. And I always laugh and joke and
say that we're the most personal private people, private public

(10:08):
people because there's a lot of things that we don't share,
you know, But I think that had to be ship.
I got a lot of feedback from even some white
families who were like, I had never in my life
thought about having to have that conversation with my kids
and having to see what it did to them was
eye opening. Yeah, you know what I'm saying, because when

(10:30):
when in history have we ever really seen a black
dad having the talk with his sons and you're seeing
the emotional aspect of them breaking down and crying. Typically
when they showed the talk. It's like the proud talk.
This what you have to do when the sun gets
angry and he walks out and he feels confident that
he can conquer the world. No, and that should be
traumatizing you hear that and you're like, what, So I

(10:52):
could literally just be out minded my business and if
a cop approaches me and it's having a bad day,
I could be murdered and nothing may happen. And it's like, yes,
that's the reality. In America. People will villainize you if
you're murdered. If you're an unknowned black man and you
get murdered by a police officer, there is a large
probability that the media will villainize you, regardless of what

(11:13):
your history is, to make sure that it seems as
if it's okay that you will murdered and it's unfair.
And that's the reality of what we have to tell
our boys. So here to help us understand why it's
important to have these conversations with our children and give
us some tips on what to say, because I think
that's the biggest issues. What do we say to these
four babies of ours. We have Amber Coleman mortally, Amber

(11:36):
how argue I am doing well or as best as
you can during these times. How are y'all? Absolutely we're
doing well? Can complain? Amber is the director of Social
Engagement at a tech nonprofit, is Civics parenting expert and
a mom of three, and on her blog Mom of
All Capes, she covers practical strategies for parenting in social

(11:59):
and sational development, and most recently, Amber has been having
conversations about how we can acknowledge what's going on around
us on the podcast that she hosts with her kids,
Let's K twelve Better. Thank you so much for coming
back again with this Amber. We had a couple of
technical difficulties last time, but this was definitely a topic

(12:21):
and a conversation that I felt was so absolutely necessary
that I've set to devour on the team. We have
to have Amber back on. So thank you for the repeat. No,
thank you, guys. I'm huge fans of y'all, Like I
think you guys are doing amazing things out here, so
I'm honored that you guys have asked me back, So
thank you so very much. Pleasure is all, no doubt, Yes, awesome, awesome.

(12:41):
So yeah, we've been just talking a little bit about
you know, UM, the current times racism, how it's been
affecting our children. UM, what's going on in the country
right now, because so many of us have children who
are aware of the fact that something is happening. So UM,
So Amber, what is the approach that you feel, UM
parents should be taking when it comes to having the

(13:02):
conversations about racism with their children. Yeah, So, first and foremost,
age appropriate honesty, right, UM, you know, you want to
make sure that you are honest and open with your kids.
You want to also make sure that you're vulnerable with
your kids, like it's okay to expose your feelings a
little bit about you know, how you feel about what's

(13:24):
going on. UM. You also want to center your identity,
so you know, black parents centering their identity, non black
parents of color centering their identity, White parents centering their identity. UM.
To talk about these issues with our kids to make
them more real, and then also to ensure that our
kids are connecting because these are serious, UM concerns that

(13:45):
all of us have right right, right. So we want
to make sure that you know, we're not only just
being vulnerable and touchy feely, but we're also like you know,
being practical as well. They are kids, so we don't
want to overwhelm them with too much information, um, but
we want to give them the space to talk right
with us in in a in a vulnerable way, you know.

(14:05):
You know what I've learned in during this time is
giving people grace to understand because even though my wife
is black and her parents are but her mom is black,
her dad is Indian. They come from a different culture.
So even in trying to get them to understand what
Black Americans have gone through on this soil, to me,
there was there was a little bit of gap. And

(14:25):
we talked about this in culture Clash when they came
time to have the talk with Jackson, and Kay kind
of like shut down a little because she was pissed,
like she just didn't want to talk to anybody about it.
So I had to give her grace. And knowing that
my wife is also dealing with the fact that she's watching,
you know, black men and when we're murdering the street.
She got a husband and she got kids, So the

(14:45):
way she wants to discuss it may not be the
same as the way I want to discuss it. So
how important is it to give your partner grace when
trying to find a way to articulate that to your
kids together, because that's what we went through. We spent
weeks trying to figure it out before we actually and
I think it was for me too. I was just
very I was just of course, very upset, very emotional
about it, and I know that children can pick up
on that, so I had to find a way to

(15:08):
center my emotions so that way, I was in a
whole basket case because then of course it's going to
feed off onto the children. They're gonna worry. Like Mom
seems to be super you know, upset right now. So
how is it that you know we're going to get
past this that I felt that was gonna be a
question Jackson would have for me. I think that that's
something that especially within the black community, we forget the
diversity of experiences right within the black community. You know,

(15:31):
like my kids father, he's from Trinidad and Tobago, so
same thing, right, Like, he's from mixed race heritage. So
he's got a lot going on in his head right
now about this moment and providing your partner grace, but
also like speaking truth to power, right like you know,
develout telling to knein right, like, this is how I'm

(15:51):
viewing this moment right now, and this is why I'm
experiencing it this way, and you know, laying it out right,
like having a history lesson together, watching Eyes on the
Prize together, right, like learning about the Black American experience
and relearning about about the Black American experience together. It's
one way that you guys can grow closer because again,

(16:12):
there's a diversity of experiences. You know, I'm fortunate to
live in a community where there's seventy two different countries
represented at my kids school, So I know, like in
those different homes, like people are having all of these
different like ways of grappling with what's going on in
the world, um, very different from my own, right, And
I have to allow even my friends you know, and

(16:35):
associates to have that space to process and say, how
does this impact me personally? Right? How does this impact
what I already know? Right? How does this challenge what
I already know right about America and about growing up
in America and America being this place of great promise, etcetera.
Right that were here, you know, so you do need

(16:55):
to have that space in your home and outside of
your home to give people time to process, and then
the learning process has to be communal and familiar. So
so I have a question, right, And this is where
I struggled. I used to always ask, Kay, every time
I had a conversation with Jackson, did you think I've
gone too far? Do you think I've told him too much? Um?
And I'll be a d honest as a black man.

(17:17):
I'm not afraid of making my son cry, like this
is gonna go this is gonna sound crazy. But I
was talking to Katie other day. Jackson can't go to
martial arts, he can't go to jiu jitsu because of COVID.
So now I have to manufacture adversity. Right. So we've
been doing pull ups, push ups and squats. Right, so
we have this thing where is cold? Get me too?
Where you know he punched me in his stomach twice.
I punched him in his stomach twice, so he's actually

(17:40):
getting big and strong. So the two times I punched
him in his stomach, he don't even flinch. So I'm like,
I'm gonna hit him and see if he can take it.
So I hit him boom, and he crumbled over. But
then he got up and I was like, you better
not cry. Write something like you better not cry. So
he didn't cry. I said, you gotta learn how to
suck it up and compartmentalize when you have people around.
So I said, so now you know you got it together? Saidyea,
got together. So I said, come with me. We went

(18:02):
to my bedroom. I said, do you want to let
it out? Do you want to let the cry out?
So he's just like, yes, I do. So finally he
breaks down to my arms. He cries, right, and I'm like, yo,
it's good for you to be able to cry in
a safe space wards me and you, but you, as
a black man, do not have the liberty to be
emotional and reactionary in the world. And then I'm done

(18:23):
with all of that and I go and I was like, hey,
do you think I went too far? How do you
know when you're going too far? Like I don't know,
you don't, You don't know untill they're grown out of
your house, and like sitting on somebody so fucking and
like counseling, Like like I look at my daughters every
day and I'm like, mommy is just doing the best

(18:43):
she can, you know, right, like Mommy's got her own
issues and baggage too, right, Right, I would say this
like as far like you know, kudo se y'all raising
like young black men in America during this time right now,
Like my sister is also raising black aways, and I'm
like every day I'm like, I don't know how y'all
are doing this right, you know, So I mean any

(19:04):
black child right at this moment, like, I don't know
how we're doing it right. We've gotta do what we gotta.
I think the most important thing is establishing with your sons,
and I'll say with the listeners, with your children, is
that you love them and that you're a place of refuge. Right.
You're not at an abling place, You're not a place
of enable, but you're a place of refuge. Like you,
my arms are always open, I can come to you.

(19:27):
You know, I'm here for you. Right. I'm not always
gonna make it easy for you, right, but I'm always
going to make sure that you know that you are
loved in this space for who you are, right and
no matter no matter who you grow up to be,
you're gonna be loved here. Right. So that's the number
one thing which I think you'll already do with your kids.
And then secondly, like with adversity and challenges. You know,

(19:52):
we're athletes and we're not doing sports right now. So
it's it is so hard, right, That is the truth.
Because if he was, if he was in jiu jitsu
or karate, I wouldn't be hitting him in the stomach
to test him and see if he could take it.
I'd let him go with his tears and maybe maybe
down the mile, maybe run the mile instead, you know
what I'm saying. Like you know, like like I'll run

(20:13):
my kids, and I'll say, this is the time that
you need to make it in like I'm not making
there's no excuses, you know, get down and back, you know,
down the neighborhood and then back in this time period.
And if you don't, then here's ten extra set ups
and push ups, you know, so that that pushes them
a little bit, that that puts the goals in their mind.
You know. Unfortunately, within America as it's constructed right now,

(20:36):
at this point in history, there is no space for
black children too unfortunately, be soft and vulnerable, which you know,
but I'll say it one more time, there is within
this space right now in America historically contemporarily, up to
this point, there has not been a space that has
allowed Black children to be vulnerable, to be soft, to

(20:59):
be compassion it, to be um. You know, I hate
to say it this way, but like deserving of love,
and black children deserve love just like every other child. Right.
So you know we want to as parents provide this
crusty layer, right, but we can't forget to provide the
softness of heart because when you're sending your child out

(21:19):
in the world, you know, maybe they will but they
or maybe they won't, but they're gonna be in a
relationship with someone. So you can't send someone out there
that's so encrusted that they can't be loved and they
cannot love another person. Right that that that there's the balance, right.
You want you want to provide realism. You want to
be realistic, but you also want to show them through

(21:39):
modeling and show them through other means that you know what,
your vulnerable, soft loving spirit and heart is extremely valuable
and someone is going to appreciate that. You know, I
say that to my daughters all the time. You know,
someone's gonna love you, and you're gonna want to love
someone else and you actually open to that, and you're
deserving of that, and you have to respect another right.

(22:00):
So we're teaching kids how to love, and so we
don't want to forget that. That's just one thing I
would add right there, but you know it's hard. Yeah, no,
And and saying that makes me think about our first
conversation that we had when you talked about speaking positive
affirmations to our children and when they actually first experienced
the the idea of race. So when they start school,

(22:23):
so as early as you know, it could be daycare
centers at like you know, two and three, or starting
nursery school or kindergarten at four and five. The importance
of speaking positive affirmations into our children when they are
introduced to race, i e. Being in school with a
diverse amount of people, making sure that they know exactly
who they are and they're proud of it. Like you
gave the story about your daughter going to school and

(22:45):
her hair and things like that, So can you tell
us a little bit about that beginning phase of the
introductory you know, conversation about racism and where it goes
from there? Yeah, totally. So you know, I am a
firm believer I think I said this the last time.
Love is a revolutionary act, right, like you know, just period,
love is a revolutionary act. The idea of loving someone

(23:07):
and being loved is a revolutionary thing. Unfortunately, historically, you know,
black people did not have access to that on plantations
and then growing up and up to this moment. So
we have to speak to our black and brown children
that they are valuable, right, they are lovable, that they
are you know, that they can do it. That they

(23:29):
will face adversity, whether it's because of race or class,
or a myriad of other things, learning differences, able is
um or or disabled. Right like your children are gonna
face a variety of experiences. You have to continue to
affirm their humanity when they walk out the door. Again,
we're not enabling our children. We are empowering, empowering, empowering right,

(23:52):
different e word right, because mama's want to coddle and love.
You know, it's needed, right, you know, but we got Yes,
I'll be trying out and you are strong a balance
and I struggle with that, but thank God for Devouce
to be the voice of reason and time like that,
because it sounds like y'all got a good balance y'all

(24:12):
got a good balance. Well, we have a balance now, right,
And this is this is my concern because I've always
been around young man. My father had a young man's
group in a church called the Junior Ayman where he
meantor a young man. I watched how he he mentor them.
You know, it was like He's like, you punch them
in the stomach and then you kiss him on the forehead.
You know you have to, you know, give them that

(24:33):
tough love, but then give them the soft love that
they know that, Hey, I'm here, but for a young woman.
Hopefully I have a daughter. Hopefully I have a daughter.
Hopefully I have a daughter. Yes, you can't do that
to your your daughter. You can't just put your daughter.

(24:53):
As a father, I can't go into a punch in
the get up, you know, I can't do that. So
then the roles might switch. And I always wonder how
do I, as a father, empower my daughter without coddling
her and making her feel like, oh, you can always
run to daddy, you know, because I know words mean
a lot, so I know you can empower them, But
what other ways can I empower her? Yeah? About the

(25:16):
actual daughter that we don't have I love I was
a person. Here you go like you having to listen, listen, Okay,
well I will address this imaginary awesome daughter that you
all have. Thank you, and why thank you? Because I'm

(25:42):
I am also raising daughters. And I will say, you know,
I tell my girls all the time. You know, you
guys are black women, right like you are strong, you
are capable. Right, you need to challenge yourselves, right, challenge
yourselves and push yourselves outside of the things that you
and I would say, I guess this is what all kids.
But challenge and push yourselves outside of the box of

(26:05):
things you know that you can do. That's the first thing,
right because when you when when we're learning coding, so
like some of them are loving it, some of them
are not. And in that challenge and push, you build
the capacity for resilience, right, You're building the capacity to
like hang onto something even if it gets hard and challenging,
you know, So that's what you want for girls. And

(26:26):
and unfortunately, like the world has a way of like
just I don't even know, like reminding you of your
of your perceived place within society. You have to challenge that, right,
like you have to say, like, okay, you think that
this is what I deserve, But this is actually what
I think I deserve, and I'm gonna go for it
despite what anyone says. So, you know, daughters, sons, whoever,

(26:49):
pushing your kid to see their value right outside of
how the world values them, and I would say son
or daughter, son or daughter? You know, I keep notes right,
Two things that you said already that I think I'm
going to start to presenting my kids all the time.
First of all, is love is a revolutionary in particular

(27:11):
black love. And this is this is funny because we
were on the show Black Love and people ask all
the time, why has it got to be black love?
Why can't it just be loved? And I said, well,
if you understood the history of this country, you would
understand that black people were not allowed to love for
a long time. So showing love to each other is
a revolutionary yet. And then secondly, building the capacity to

(27:33):
be resilient. I say this all the time to Candeian.
She's like, why do you do that? Why you just
trip the kids for no reason when they walked by.
I'm like, I do that because they got to be resilient.
All right, Get your ass back up all right, another level. Listen,
growing up in Brooklyn, you had like we went through
this welfare services that our door, Like we heard you

(27:54):
been tripping your kids, and I would be up to that. No,
I'm not cleaning up. I'm gonna be honest. Black people
have had to raise their kids differently than the rest
of America. And for the things that we have to
do to our kids, people always want to say that
we're doing we're parenting the wrong way. Well, I'm sorry.

(28:15):
I don't have the leniency to let you go out
there in the world and make mistakes. Because you make
a mistake, you could be I'm saying, so I have
to make you more resilient within my own home. And
that's in part where you said earlier, Amber, was that
black people don't have black kids, don't have an area
to be compassionate. Sometimes I find myself trying to teach

(28:37):
resiliency more than compassion. And that's because I feel that's
that's that's the community. Community community. Well, you know what
I'm saying, Like your home is a civic space. You
know here I go on the civics train, But like
your house is a civic space. We have a family constitution,
so we've all agreed that there are like four tenants

(28:58):
that like, you know, respect think each other, you know,
respecting technology. You know, there's two more that have evaded me.
But like you know, like there are four tenants that
we live by and so within our family constitution because
we treat our home like a community. If someone doesn't
do the dishes, they're failing the community for breakfast time
the next morning because now someone else has to come

(29:21):
waste time to pick up where you left off. So
when you raise your family unit like a community, you're
building resilience, You're building compassion to intertwined together at the
same time. So like all you have to do is
just kind of shift. I call it rebranding obviously, because
you know, I'm thinking always like, oh, like, how can
how can we market this idea for my kids? Like

(29:41):
you just want to rebrand it? Like, y'all, this is
a team, this is a community, right, You're not being
a good teammate right now, Like, how can you pick
it up as a bet to make yourself a better
teammate to be stronger for this family when you challenge
your kid to be stronger for the family. And I
say this to my daughters all the time. You've got
to be stronger for this family. You know, you're you're
you're putting someone else in a position to be strong

(30:03):
for you right now, and that is unfair to them,
you know. Now, we all have our moments of weakness
and where that's why we are a family, because we're
here to help each other. But you're taking up more
space than you need to write. And so when you
push them to think that way, like, oh, man, like
I don't want to let down the team, like right, like, well,
I don't want to, you know, let down the community,

(30:24):
then you're pushing them to be resilient and to have compassion,
to think outside themselves, to value their contributions to a
larger ideal. Right, you're pushing them forward, right And I
say to my kids also, to like, the three of
y'all are like I made you for each other, right,
like I made you guys for each other. Y'all gotta

(30:44):
have each other's back when we come out in this
world because mommy and Daddy aren't gonna be here for
the rest of your life. So you gotta be able
to learn how to survive outside of this space. When
it's all said and done when I'm gone, and you
all gotta be able to support each other when I'm gone. Yeah,
I know you're saying. And because one of my questions
to you was like, how do we teach our children
to continue to advocate for themselves when we are not around?

(31:06):
You know what I mean? Because racism as they get
older is going to start to look different. You know,
as they get older, we start to explain to them
systemic racism. Don't know, you can say it again, racism
is going to look different because it will. Our form
of racism is not the racism that our parents for
it against, well, our ancestors for it against. That doesn't
mean it doesn't exist. It just looks different. It looks
different for them. So it's like, that's a way to

(31:28):
continue to tell our children that, you know, how do
we teach them to advocate for themselves when we're not around?
Naturally as parents and our children are younger now, so
we feel like we can be the voice for them
if need be, you know what I mean. If we
feel like, say, for example, our children are out in
this world at an extracurriculativity and we're seeing that there's
some unfair of treatment going on with the kids on
the team or with a coach, like, we feel like

(31:49):
we can step in and intervene, But how do we
then kind of allow our children to be their advocates?
How do we teach them to responsibly advocate for themselves?
And you know, some people were taking their children to
protests so they can see and be on the front
line and see what that felt like. You know, Um,
they're different ways to protest. And I think my issue
in the very beginning of all of this was finding
out where I fell in this ecosystem of change, right,

(32:12):
what was gonna be my role? And at first, all
I wanted to do was take care of my household.
I wanted to be the comfort and support from my
my boys and my husband. That's what I wanted to be.
And then trying to figure out, okay, so how am
I going to evoke the change that I want to see?
So do you have any tips for people with children
that were just like you know what, how do we
continue to teach them to be empowered? And yeah? Older, So,

(32:34):
first of all, like the idea of being a comfort
right to your kids and your husband is not an
a noble idea. That is still a noble, very noble idea.
That's awesome, that's super dope. Um, don't downplay that because
especially right now, everybody right, Like I'm sorry, but like

(32:54):
women are doing a lot of the lifting to keep
everybody staying in the home and that where is when
you do so, do not think that that's anoble. That's amazing. Um.
I would say though, like if you want to like
take it a step further. We we actually had a
podcast about like what's next. Right, Um, you know there's
a lot that you can just do in your home,
obviously donating, obviously, um, you know, just lifting up the

(33:17):
voices of other people, educating yourselves and your kids. Right,
Like I went into hardcore like African American studies light
with my daughters, right. I pulled out the history of
the Caribbean because they have Caribbean ancestry. You know, I talked,
you know, I pulled out documentaries and you know, I
just wanted them to be ground firmly grounded in who

(33:38):
they were. Right, you do not want to have a
black child leave your home. And this is for anyone
raising black kids, right, even if you are white raising
a black child, listening to this, you are doing your
child at disservice if you let them leave your home
and they don't understand the history of who they are
and who they really are, right, So I would say
that like, that's that is a revolution scenary act that

(34:01):
there in ourself leaving raising a confident, well aware black child,
that is part of adding to forward progress for this country. Um.
I will also challenge like teaching your kids to speak
up for themselves, right, My daughters that see super dope.
My daughters are super comfortable calling out injustice, right, and

(34:25):
they're not doing it in a way that's like, you know, rude,
but but they'll just say, um, you know, hey, I
think that that's kind of like not cool or not fair,
Like can we or that person sitting over there by themselves?
I tell my daughter, I'm like, hey, was there someone
at the lunch room? And this was back when school
was in session, was there anyone at the lunch room
who was sitting by themselves? Did you invite them to
your table? You know? Was there a kid playing by themselves?

(34:47):
So advocacy it doesn't always have to be racially motivated
or racially charged, but teaching your kid to speak up
for others, teaching them that they have a responsibility to
include others in what they're doing doing right and and
they don't. They're not obligated, but you should write like,
if someone's playing by themselves, bring them in, right. Um.
That helps you grow as a leader, That helps you

(35:10):
grow as an ally. You know, other people look to
you like, oh man, that that person is super dope.
Like let me, you know, see what I can do
to support what they're doing, right um. You know, also,
like you know, my daughter was recently um in The
Times for a video she made on digital black face.
She researched digital black face, she researched black face in America.
Her friends, her friends were changing their Roadblocks avatars to

(35:33):
black people in supportive black Lives matter, and so she
didn't feel like, okay, what in the world. So she
I said, look, you can handle this. However, these are
your friends. So she made a video instead of making
those people feel bad, she made a video about it,
and educational video about it. Put it out there and

(35:54):
it was picked up. So like I I'll say, you know,
like teaching them to use the voice in creative ways too,
that's also part of this process, right, So you know,
hopefully I provided a few examples. I think you've definitely
provided a few examples. And I know we're going to
keep you wrong because we have to do listen. Yeah,

(36:15):
do you have like a couple of minutes just for
us to do. Yeah, as we have to. Okay, great,
but I think I think this was good. There's a
lot of good information, you know, because as a father,
you wake up every morning hoping that you won't mess
your kids up yesterday. So hearing from a professional, you
know that, Okay, you're doing all right. You know, I
feel like you know what naturally. Devalue and I we've

(36:35):
spoken about the fact that we were those children back
in the day where we would see someone alone or
by themselves. For I wasn't clicky with one particular group.
I kind of like spread the love through everyone we
moved around, and I can see that already in Jackson.
He's the same exact way. I've told the story before
about a child in his class feeling sick. Jackson went
to the bathroom with him, he had a little accident,

(36:56):
and the person that that the child came back and
told his mom. The reason why I actually accent to
go with me was because I know that he wouldn't
make fun of me or tell anybody, you know. So
that made me feel good because I was like, look,
my baby having competion layers of empathy. I love that. Alright,
So we're gonna take a quick break and then we're
gonna come back more with Amber um as we get

(37:17):
into our listener Letters, which is now devours favorite portion
of the show. He likes to say that's my favorite
part because I'm nosy. However quiet and it's kept. It's
devous favorite portion. So we'll be right back. Thanks for

(37:41):
sticking around. We're back. We're gonna get into the listener
letters portion of the show. We kept Amber around because
of course, we love to have some expert opinions when
y'all write us in, you know, so we can give
you a nice, full answer. So I'm gonna jump into
the first question. All right, I am an interracial I
am in an inter racial same sex marriage. I'm Jamaican,

(38:02):
but but but yadi link up. I am Jamaican and
my wife is a white Caucasian. I was adopted and
raised by a white family, so growing up, I've always
been deemed the whitest black person, which drove me crazy
because I'm so articulate, she said, Jesus take the wheel.
We're looking to foster and adopt children in the future. However,

(38:23):
although my wife is aware of systemic racism against people
of color and has been present for racism that's taken
place against me, I don't know how prepared she'd be
to handle potential issues that take place when we have children.
I'm sadly prepared for the continued racism that we will
experience as an interracial lesbian couple and are aware that

(38:44):
we will likely place similar challenges when having children. My
question is, would it make sense for us to take
courses or work with coaches, etcetera to get us to
better understand how to navigate life as an interracial lesbian
couple and how we can do our best to protect
our family dynamics and children's identities in the future. I

(39:06):
thought that was three questions, but that was a whole
loaded question. A whole loaded question. Yeah, but um, I
think it was a very well thought out question, and
clearly the fact that she is already knowing that she's
going to have to have these conversations with her partner
with these future children. UM, Amber, can you chime in
and tell us what you're thinking. Maybe the best approach
he's asking, particularly courses or working with coaches. What would

(39:30):
be the approach here, you think, Yeah, the best approach, um,
I believe would be to do some sort of counseling
or coaching, right, just so that you guys all have
the same baseline, right, Like you want to make sure
you're speaking the same language. You want to make sure
that any feelings or emotions that you have, you have
the techniques and the skills to work through those, right. Um,

(39:55):
you know the fact that your wife is your wife
means that she's jumped in the trenches with you, So
she's about the life on some level already. Um, you know,
like right, like right, she's like, Yo, you're it, You're
the one. Let's do this. So like, you know, because
of that, like you're already marching in a somewhat uh

(40:16):
similar direction. I would I would definitely try to get
some sort of counseling, you know, just just to make
sure that y'all are all on one accord. Because when
you bring kids, when when it's two adults, you could
be like I don't like you, I don't like you, alright,
peace by it's over right, When you sprinkling kids into
a situation, you're sprinkling and nourish, nurturing. Love. Languages are

(40:39):
very different. Levels of understanding are different. You know, your
partner is going to be a white woman raising and
if you guys adopt children of color, like black or
non black children, Like, there's a lot that goes into
that understanding that you know, needs that aren't that might
not be intuitive, needs to this white your white female partner, right,

(41:00):
your wife, so like, there's a lot of education that
needs to go into it. And and you know, all
kids are the same, right, but society creates the differences
that are around each child. So hopefully that that's helpful.
You know what, I've noticed that this is very problematic
for me with interracial couples. It's not the couple, like

(41:22):
you said, it typically is not the couple. This person
loves that person. There's nothing wrong with that once you
sprinkle in children. I always tell the story about the
young man on my high school football team. His dad
was white, his mom was black. We're walking around um
King's Plaza during a half day and we all have on,
you know, our football stuff, but we were congregating in
more than groups of four and during the time, it

(41:44):
was stopping frisk So we're walking around King's Plaza and
they said to us, just the mall in Brooklyn, that
we look like a gang. So they detained all of us,
put us in handcuffs, and we're waiting there and they're like,
you know, we're calling parents. So his dad comes in,
and his father's white man comes in and just like,
what happened? What's the problem. So then his son was
just like, I, oh, no, we were just walking around

(42:05):
and they detained us, and he was just like, they
wouldn't just detain you for no reason. And I was like,
I was like, bro, he has no He's just like, no,
I don't want to hear that. What were you doing?
And he immediately treated his son as if he was
in the wrong. And then his son, you know, looked
confused and was just like, what do you mean, Like
this happens all the time, And he's like, that doesn't
just happen. You must have been doing something. Get your ship,

(42:27):
let's go. And here I am saying to myself, his
father's probably not racist, right, but his father probably doesn't
understand the black experience. And when you don't educate yourself
when your partner or what they've gone through when things
like this happened. It can be very problematic. Remember we
watched American Son. American Son. It was Kerry washington Um.

(42:50):
She played a black mom who was very protective over
her son, had a white father who was a police officer.
The son ends up getting pulled over by the police
and they haven't seen the child and about I think
it was like a day and a half, so they
were like, where is my son? Who was my son?
The cop is asking all of these questions as if
his son was going to be treated like a typical
white inmate, and he wasn't. His son would end up

(43:10):
being murdered, and I don't want to give the movie,
would end up being murdered at the hands of police
because he was moving in a manner that he thought
was okay, because as a young black man who didn't
realize his blackness, he thought he had the liberties to
speak back to police and reaching his glove compartment and
things happen, And I'm like, that becomes problematic for me
in this country when people say, oh, race doesn't matter,

(43:31):
Yes it does. We can't sit here and continuously act
as if we live in a freaking utopia. We don't like.
There are things that need to be addressed in this country,
and for people who do date interracially, there's a lot
of work that needs to be on both parts for sure.
And then and there shouldn't be a downplaying of one's

(43:52):
experiences versus the other experience, because I think that happens
as well to like, oh, developed, I can't experience what
you experienced as a black man, and i'm your wife,
and I don't attest to believe in and be able
to feel and understand every emotion that you may experience
as a black man, as a black father raising black son.
So I think having the compassion and having the foresight

(44:14):
to say, you know what, I may not understand your
particular experience, but I can at least empathize, I can listen,
I'm willing to learn. Those are some things that I
think would work, particularly in this scenario. I'll even go
stuff further because I was having a debate with one
of my castmates who was a black woman who was
talking about dating outside of her race, and she has
said it's not her responsibility as a black woman to

(44:35):
teach a white man her history, and I said that.
I said, let's listen. Now, if you choose to date
outside of your race, you also have a responsibility to
not only teach him, but learn his history so you
can understand where his blind spots, maybe because some of
his microaggressions may come from him not knowing. You know
how many people I know, white and black, growing up

(44:57):
in the public school system, do not know the true
history of this country. So when you say things like
systemic or systematic oppression, they're like, I don't even know
who that is, right, So you're expecting him to understand
your plight as a black person is kind of unfair.
You got to educate, you know. Can I just say,
I'm so glad that you said that, because I run

(45:17):
in a lot of circles where people are doing anti
racism work, and so you know, black people will say, well,
I'm not teaching white people, and I'm of the I
will teach whoever will learn, because that's one more person
who knows. Right, it's exhausting work, right, But we just
a friend of mine was like, we don't have the numbers,
and she's right, like, we can't just say assume that

(45:39):
people are going to magically learn about black culture history
just because the information is on Google. You gotta know
what key words to type in to get the right
information to begin there. So like, like, honestly, you don't
have to be that one person on your job teaching
every white person. Don't put like you don't do that

(46:00):
to you, don't like here she go again, here she's
coming again, right exactly. But I will say, like, yo, like,
if you're in a relationship with someone that's non black,
you know, whether Asian or Hispanic or white or whatever, like,
you got to bring them along because they've jumped into
this pit with you, right, Like they don't they might
not know what they got into. Yeah, right, thanks for

(46:23):
saying that. Thanks for saying that. Oh my goodness and births.
Thank you so much, you know, for taking time to
chat with us again. And I feel like there's so
many untouched areas that we can speak about. But we
may have to have her back because we have something,
we have some stuff I think you would be great
to chime in on. So um, so yeah, thank you

(46:44):
so much for your time. Go kiss those beautiful girls.
Yeah awesome you guys. First of all, thank you guys,
y'all are the best. I love you guys. Y'all are
amazing great examples of like just two people just doing
the best that they can parenting and relationship wise. Please
keep that up because we need more great examples, you know,
for real, for real? Um yeah, absolutely. People can find

(47:08):
me on Twitter. I'm better on Twitter than I am
on Instagram and TikTok. So I'm at mom of All
Capes everywhere, Mom of all capes. Um. And then also
check out our Let's K twelve Better podcast, you know,
so you know, we do my kids and I do
a lot of talking together as a family. So if
you want to learn how do I talk to my
kids about topics, check out our podcast. We do a

(47:30):
ton of modeling at the Let's K twelve Better podcast.
All right, so I think we should move into the
moment of truth. Babe, have you been taking notes science
that you had Japan and whatnot? We first of all,
because if you'd like to be featured as one of
our listening at gmail dot com, give them the email

(47:53):
one more time. The email is dead ass Advice at
gmail dot com. That's d E A D A S
S A d V I c E at gmail. There
you go, all right, So then I guess, is it
a moment of truth time? Now after I did all
the heavy lifting. You know what I'm saying. You know
what I'm saying. Okay, fine, Well my moment of truth

(48:16):
was actually pulled from something Amber said, which I think
is great because I love when we have somebody who's
an expert in a particular field. I can just learn
from an absorb. So my moment of truth is to
be not an enabler, but an empower when it comes
to my children, and that can work for so many
different areas of their life. Me be wanting to be

(48:38):
the comfort you know, for them and having to be
able to fight all their battles and you know, not
have racism or any of that being experienced by them, um,
but making sure that I am a place of comfort, yes,
but also empowering at the same time. So that was
my takeaway. That was a good moment of that school
School School. I guess its levels to the moment of truth.

(49:03):
So the first one for me is love is a
revolutionary act because you know, first of all, teaching your
children how to love can change the world. Teaching them
to love themselves literally change can change the world. And
teach them to love people who look like them and
don't look like them can change the world. So love
is a revolutionary act. The second one is building the
capacity to be resilient. Right the way I've learned to

(49:26):
build my children's capacity to be resilient is by giving
them their history. Because if you understand the history of
Black American people, you see that we are a resilient people.
And if you hear our history, and isn't it I mean,
if you think about where we came from in Africa,
only the strong survived to get here to the shores
of Jamestown. Then only the strong survived slavery, then slot

(49:50):
survived the Civil War, then survived Jim Crow, you know,
like the stronger here. So you have to think about
the fact that you're here means that you're a survivor.
And what that will do is in turn empower your
children to be resilient because they realize that we've come
a long way, we still have a long way to go,
but you can be a part of the fight. So
this is amazing in the capacity to be resilient for sure,

(50:10):
through history and through facts and through knowledge. And we
got some stuff coming up from we do got some
stuff coming up. I know, I know, I'm excited about
it as well too, So be sure to follow us
on social media at we have an Instagram page out y'all.
I'll be let me tell you see the floor as

(50:31):
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(50:53):
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