On Our Best Behavior with Elise Loehnen

Chelsea is joined in-studio by author Elise Loehnen to talk about fixing our societal head trauma, how to stop stunting our emotional growth, and taking down the patriarchy - one step at a time.  Then: A twenty-something discovers her ex cheated on her the whole time.  A mom is horrified at her teenager’s trampy clothes.  And a gym-rat wonders if she has the right body to step into the instructor’s spot.

*

Get your copy of On Our Best Behavior here!

*

Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail]

*

Produced by Catherine Law

Edited & Engineered by Brandon Dickert

*

*

*

*

*

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, Catherine.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Hi Chelsea, you were telling me you added some second
shows in some cities.

Speaker 3 (00:05):
What do you have going on?

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Okay, guys, I have added more second shows to my
Little Big Bitch tour. I added second shows in Hollywood
at the Pantagious. I am going to be there two
nights October twelfth and thirteenth. I added another show at
the Chicago Theater October twenty seventh and October twenty eighth,
one of my favorite places to perform. I added another

(00:27):
show in Portland, so I'll be there November second and third.
And I added a second show in Boston at the
Weighing Center, so I will be there November sixteenth and seventeenth.
I also have two shows in Seattle, San Francisco, New
York at the Beacon and Washington, d C. I will
be there October fifth and sixth. And a special shout

(00:49):
out to Phoenix, Arizona, where I'm coming Saturday, October fourteenth.
And then I'm coming to Cleveland Columbus in Pittsburgh, So
suck on that, you guys. I can't wait to set everybody.
Oh and I'm coming to Eugene, Oregon too, everybody. That's
November ninth, twenty twenty three, and I will be at
the Clubhouse in East Hampton, which is going to be

(01:11):
a very intimate show on Saturday, August twenty sixth, So
if you are in the Long Island area, that's where.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
I'll be awesome. Well, we have a great guest today
and she talks all about women and the patriarchy and
it's very exciting.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
But I have a question for you.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
You've talked about how you know your mom and your
sisters were big influences in your life. But I'm curious,
who are some other powerful women in your life, either
growing up or early on, and what did they teach you?

Speaker 1 (01:41):
I mean, I guess I would start with my third
grade teacher, missus Sheckman. She was a big influence on
me because she loved me and she just showed me
such like maternal love. And I went and stayed with
her a couple times at her beach house with her husband,
and my mom loved them, and she just really took
me under her wing. I think she sensed how to
neglected I was, and she must have felt for me,

(02:03):
and she was just so sweet. I still talk to her.
I talked to her. I haven't talked to her in
a few months, but she calls me every once in
a while and she's just she lives in Florida, and
she just extended love to me and tenderness, and I
really that made an impact on me to extend love
and tenderness to others who or who who I could
see were neglected. Yeah, so I and my mom was

(02:24):
very much like that. My mom was very sweet to
people when she knew they had issues or even my
girlfriend growing up was really in a bad home situation,
and my mom sensed it always told her she loved her,
because my friend's parents had never told her that they
loved her, And so that was nice. But as far

(02:45):
as powerful women like, I don't know that anyone I
looked up to like the lessons I learned were powerful.
I think I I wanted to always be powerful because
I didn't feel like enough women were in my life
were powerful, and it made me, just as by instinct,
want to be more than what I was seeing, Like

(03:07):
I was like, this isn't good enough. Why does? Why
are all like I want to be like a boss
bitch from a young age. And it's not even that
I wanted to be. I just inherently was it was
in your nature, Like I just wanted to be in
control of my own destiny, not reliant on anybody. And
I think that's the always been the theme in my
own experience, is that I'm dependable. That's all I wanted

(03:30):
to do, because I saw so many people in my
life that were not dependable. In my mind, however, I
interpreted my brother dying, my mom not picking me up
from school, blah blah blah, I wanted to be dependable,
and so growing up that was always like, I wanted
to be the friend. If you call me, I will
be there. If you need me, I will be there.
You know you can always count on me. And that

(03:50):
was more than the idea of power or looking to
someone who you know, in a powerful position. I just
wanted to be a soft person.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, it's interesting because you it sounds like you grew
up knowing you wanted to be independent, but also be
someone others could depend on.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Well, excuse me while I burb well, said Catherine. Great, Yes,
that's it, that's exactly right. And what about you? Who
did you look up to?

Speaker 2 (04:21):
I was really lucky where I grew up with a
really great mom who sort of like brought in all
kinds of other people. Like so many people in my
life are are like your mom is like my mom,
you know, like she's she's adopted everyone around her. But
I also feel like I had so many other like
friends moms who were like a second mom to me.
My best friend's mom always was like fun to talk

(04:44):
to and interesting and like really wonderful and always had
this like a bubbly charismatic energy and cared what us
kids had to say.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
You know, yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
Think that's such an important quality.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Is just like listening and being interested, and she always
was that for sure.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah. I remember I had an uncle growing up, and
he was always interested in everything with the kids had
to say. Like I remember loving going over to his
house because he would spend time with me and be like, Okay,
tell me what you think about this. And I was
such a young girl and I got so much attention
from him. And then last summer, we were all at
our family vacation on Martha's Vineyard and some of our
cousins came over and then they told us that that

(05:25):
uncle had so many affairs growing up with all of
his girlfriends. I was like, oh, he was probably hitting
on me, so I was like, well, you just blew
that whole fucking memory that I had anyway, So well, okay.
So our guest today is the host of the podcast
Pulling the Thread, an author of On Our Best Behavior,

(05:48):
Elise Lonein. Hi, Elise, look who's here today? Hello?

Speaker 4 (05:53):
This is exciting for me, you know, I love you.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Oh, thank you, honey. And this is Catherine, my producer. Hello,
and we are here to celebrate the launch of I
don't know why I'm holding this up like I'm Oprah
Winfrey because I don't have the studio owns, but I
guess I'm holding it up for Catherine, who's also read it.
Your new book which is called On Our Best Behavior,
The Seven Deadly Sins and The Price Women Pay to
Be Good, which is a very important book for every

(06:20):
woman and man to be reading. So that took me
a while because it's a heavy book, Like there's a
lot of information in there and a lot of history.
I think you do a good job of really kind
of bringing it back to yourself a lot, and the
ways that it's kind of imprinted itself in you and
your experiences in this world. And I think all women
should have to understand or should want to gain, I

(06:43):
guess a better understanding of where all of these ideas
that we have about our responsibilities in society came from
and how many millennia they have been making their mark
on us. Yeah, And what we are able to do
as women to kind of take our our own agency
back and stop the art of performing for others, Yes,

(07:05):
while also remaining true to who you are in the
idea that by doing that it even gives yourself more
room to give. Like, when we take care of ourselves,
we are able to take care of others in a
more impactful way. And if that's what we're trying to
do in the first place, is take care of everybody,
then we should really start with ourselves.

Speaker 4 (07:26):
Can you just do my book tour for meat?

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, no problem. Yeah, I just need a ton of
wee to constantly talk about the same thing. That's how
I make things exciting. Is I just add weed to it.
I'm like, okay, I can talk about this again, because
the book tour becomes very monotonous too. I know you
have to repeat yourself a little, So talk to me
and talk to us about your impetus for writing this
book and tell us a little bit about all of

(07:48):
your research and history.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
Well, unsurprisingly, you may know this about me, but I
am a good girl. I have spent my life achieving
and trying to be the best at everything and every
sphere of my life. And I hit a point several
years ago where I have a recurring panic disorder. I
have a chronic hyperventilator and I hyperventilated for more than

(08:16):
a month and just hit a wall of trying to
understand what it was in me that was driving me
to try to reach some invisible finish line where I
would have safety and security and be loved and be enough.
And I recognized, despite everything that I had achieved and

(08:40):
how much I had done for other people, my family,
my coworkers, that I was only driving myself deeper into
a hole. I was the farthest I'd ever felt from
emotionally free or comfortable, and so I knew I needed
to address this, whatever it was in me, these invisible
voices that were telling me that I was bad, that

(09:03):
I wasn't enough, And that sort of began the journey
of what would it look like to actually turn and
face this rather than trying to continue to outrun it
and In that process, I came across this code of
goodness that is so obvious it's invisible, I think, to

(09:26):
all of us, and this punch card of goodness that
women specifically try to fulfill in our culture. Regardless of
whether you're raised in any religion or know anything about religion,
these are cultural rules at this point, and if you
actually don't achieve them, you deny them sloth, pride, envy, gluttony, greed.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Because we're treating they're so bad right to practice any
of these things.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
Yes, that I recognized in that all the ways that
I was policing myself and sadly policing other women.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
M hm.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yes, that very much struck a chord with me. When
you're talking about the judgment we have, I'm a very
judgmental person, so I struggle with this a lot because
I'm always trying to just go at everybody with love
and no judgment. But I'm so opinionated. So it's just
a fucking pain in the ass. But it's not fair
to judge everybody. It's not fuch fair to judge anybody.
You're supposed to be looking at people with sympathy and
compassion and empathy and no judgment. I mean, I can't

(10:22):
wait till one day feel that, you know for more
than a couple of fleeting seconds. So talk to me.
How you recognize that in yourself?

Speaker 4 (10:29):
Yeah? Well, the big question that I feel like I've
been circling for most of my adult life, definitely since
twenty sixteen and the election, is why do women have
so much trouble getting on side with each other? What
is it in us that makes us so it feels instinctual.

(10:49):
I don't think it's instinctual. I think it's culture. But
why do we slap each other down? And why is
it so acceptable to dismiss each other with comments like
I just don't like her, or who does she think
she is? Or she's too big for her breches? And
these are all cultural refrains we've said, we've heard, most

(11:10):
likely we haven't interrupted them in ourselves and in conversation
with each other. And I really wanted to understand that
in myself. Why did I have that reaction to specific women,
not all women? And what I realized I sort of
started with envy. It's a gateway drug. I realized that
those women that were bothering me were women who were

(11:32):
pushing on a dream I had for myself and they
had something. It was envy, They had something that I
wanted for myself, and I just couldn't actually admit my
own wanting or acknowledge it. And I think we're all
conditioned to suppress it. It comes up, and we suppress
that wanting and we just attack. That's what I think

(11:53):
is happening.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yes, I think that's a great way to describe it,
because you can, I mean, anyone listening to this can
relate to feeling envious of another person and then what
those feelings bring up for you or that you're supposed
to shove them away, And it's like that's actually part
of your psyche or you can call it your shadow
self or whatever you want to refer to it as.
But those are natural thoughts that have that happen, and
it's your job to put them in the right compartment,

(12:17):
you know, not to act on them, not to behave
in a jealous way or behave in an envious way,
but to acknowledge I mean, or you can. I mean,
it's really up to how you want to play this
game of life. It is like, how do you want
to operate within all of these dynamics and self agency
and self respect allow you to acknowledge that you even
have those feelings and they're not the most powerful feeling. Yes,

(12:39):
or what that feeling leads to, which is a truth
that you're not willing yet to admit to yourself. Yes,
which is I want that.

Speaker 4 (12:46):
One thousand percent. It's full of really essential information. I
think that our envy is our soul knocking on a
door asking us to pay attention to what we want.
And in our culture, unfortunately, women have been conditioned to
subjugate what we want to other people's needs. It's just
being a woman, one a one. We don't have great

(13:10):
models culturally of identifying what you want and then going
after it, and there aren't that many women also culturally.
I'm sure it can relate to this, and I write
about this in the chapter on pride. We don't have
very many examples of highly visible women, women who have
dared to be seen, women who are really living their dream,

(13:33):
who have managed to escape cultural destruction. Right like so
many women, business leaders, athletes, actresses, singers follow this trajectory
where we love them when they're coming out, we applaud them,
we celebrate them. They reach a certain pinnacle and then
we destroy them, and we can say that those people

(13:58):
have nothing to do with us, like people like you
and me, Catherine. We can say, oh that we can
get a little hit of schadenfreude or just find it
kind of entertaining. But the reality is that lives in
us too. It lives in all young girls. This is
a playbook. This is what happens to women, and when

(14:18):
we celebrate it, we're inhibiting ourselves from being seen too.
It has really really deep implications I think for all women.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yes, it's something that it would be nice to have
a language for young little girls, you know, and boys,
everybody really, because who doesn't get envious of another person's accomplishments.
But there's this dismantling that needs to be done about
the way that we're taught about those feelings and all
the seven deadly sins that we're not supposed to feel.
I mean it, basically, your book speaks to the fact

(14:48):
that patriarchy was invented with religion. You're not saying that,
but that's what I'm saying. That's where all of everything
started to get murky. And even in this book, I
read Short History on Humanity, a few weeks ago, and
that goes back to like two million years ago, and
it goes back to when civilization began and the migration pattern,
and it starts to understand when women became property because

(15:11):
of burial sites like you can see that there was
a change in civilization and when it's what started out
equally ended up being they ended up being subjugated, and
that was definitely because of religion.

Speaker 4 (15:23):
Yeah. Well, and I would say I'd take that one
step farther and say, you have sort of the Hamarabi's code.
This for early patriarchal ideology, which was all about destroying women,
like drowning women and penalizing men slightly with like a
slap in the hand. And then you when your hand job, yeah,
or hand job if you really transfer the penal code exactly.

(15:47):
But then with Judeo Christian religion in Rome just really
taking over, you see this moralizing that comes into it
as well. So it's not just about oppressive dominance, subjec
subjucation of women. It's about you are bad and base
and maybe you'll make it to heaven if you spend
your life trying to prove your goodness.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
Well, interestingly enough, there's also evidence to show or direct
you to the idea that this is one stage of
civilization and then so it started out with patriarchy, then
went to patriarchy, and then the next stage it could
be some conjecture, will be androgeny.

Speaker 4 (16:26):
Yes, isn't that I love this idea.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
I also love this idea.

Speaker 4 (16:31):
Yeah, And I feel like that's what the contemporary trans
movement is moving us toward, this idea of transcending gender
and gender identities and living balanced between energies the masculine
and the feminine. Regardless of gender, we all have both energies.
I think women can really identify with this. The masculine

(16:52):
being order, structure, truth, when you're directing, when you're organizing,
when you're making stuff happen. The feminine is nurturance, care, creativity,
and men have feminine energy and desperately need to be
living that in their lives fully in the creative, nurturance

(17:15):
carrying component of self. And so I think with the
trans movement, we're seeing like it doesn't matter what your
body parts are, these are universal human values and it
is incumbent on all of us to be balanced in both.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
And imagine the lack of gender discrimination when there is
no gender Yeah, like hello, that's what we need to like.
I mean, there's so many advantages to understanding this movement
and learning about this movement instead of rejecting it. Because
if you only think there's a boy and a girl,
which is so dumb, in certain places in the world
they already have a third sex. Yes, so that makes sense.

(17:54):
And knowing that everything is a spectrum also, I think
it's really fascinating to understand that and how you know
our conditioning and what you're supposed to do. Even with
the little decisions in our lives every single day and
the minutia, we do what everybody else is doing most
of the time without having our own original ideas or
thoughts about counteracting that kind of behavior or making a

(18:16):
decision not based on what other people made their decision
on yes.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
No.

Speaker 4 (18:21):
And I think like you, for example, to me, are
sort of a post hratriarchal person, and you're an incredibly
good interrupter of this programming that runs in US. I
feel like you have an ability to sort of stop
it and question it and evaluate it and then take
it or leave it in a way that I think
the rest of us need to develop this ability to

(18:43):
sort of say, is this what's running me? Is this me?
Or is this just some sort of conditioning that is
informing my behavior? And if we could do that and
get closer to ourselves and say, yes, I'm a woman
and I'm a mother or in your not a mother,
that doesn't mean that I am that that identity defines me,

(19:05):
that I am only those things. You know, we have
a lot of trouble with sort of the complexity. We
really want women to be only caring and nurturing and
men to only be this and it's a cage.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
It's a terrible cage.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
What were you saying, Catherine, You were saying something about
our book before when we were talking.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, I was telling Chelsea, you know one of the
most meaningful parts of your book was that first introductory
portion where you're talking about the history of where patriarchy
comes from, having grown up very religious and basically going
to church seven days a week between.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
School, and so sorry about that. Is it's you? Thank you.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
I've been spending the last couple of years sort of
dismantling a lot of this stuff and being able to
see where this stuff comes from. You know that Mary
magg Delane was you know, called a prostitute, even though
that was like maybe not not what was going on.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
It wasn't what was going on right, right.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
She was exonerated by the pope a couple of years ago.
But like the damage has already done. But like between
your book, it's like when you see these things, when
you read these things, your eyes are opened to like, oh,
here's what's these thoughts are coming up in me, and
they're just it doesn't mean they're true just because they're
coming up. It's because of something I learned when I
was very young that's maybe based on nothing.

Speaker 4 (20:27):
Yes, my friend calls it Bible fanfic. Uh huh. I
mean the deadly sins weren't in the Bible, and I
think most people never make that connection. It just these
things are passed down to us, like law, and when
you actually start to look at and you look at
something like the New Testament, and we could nerd out
on it, but just the number of mistranslations of the

(20:50):
New Testament are higher than the number of words, and
like some devastating ones, you know, like the Creation of
Virginity was translation from Hebrew to Greek, and Beulah means
young woman. It has nothing to do with sexual state.
That's the original hubut rub has nothing to do with

(21:10):
whether you're married or not. Just means young woman. That
was translated as virgin. Oh nice, thanks for that, it's great.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Wow. Could you also talk a little bit about I
know in your book you include sadness, which was originally
one of the seven deadly sins? There were eight.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Can you talk a little bit about that and did
they cut that one?

Speaker 4 (21:34):
It just well convenient. So briefly, the history is that
they were called eight thoughts, as you said, demonic thoughts,
but demon meaning distraction, and they were first written down
by this by.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
The way, at least speaks fluent Latin, so watch your back.

Speaker 4 (21:48):
Oh oh god. So they were first written down by
this monk in the Egyptian desert, Evagrius Ponticus, as eight
thoughts and these distracting thoughts. They didn't have this moral tone.
This is at the same time that the New Testament
was being canonized. This is fourth century, and this little
chap book he wrote it as like a spell book,

(22:09):
almost of pits of scripture. It was passed around and
then it wasn't until five ninety that Pope Gregory the
first turned these thoughts, he dropped sadness, and he turned
the thoughts into the cardinal vices, the seven deadly sins,
And as you said, Catherine, in that same homily, he
assigned them all to Mary Magdalen, conflated her with a

(22:32):
woman who anointed Jesus's hair, and turned that woman into
a prostitute. So that's when Mary Magdalene miraculously became a prostitute,
and that's how they entered sort of mainstream religion and sadness.
We don't know why it went away. The way that
Evagris Pontikus wrote about.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
It, he probably abolished it.

Speaker 4 (22:55):
They abolished it exactly so it had a feminine soul.
So I think it fell off because these were assigned
primarily to women, and I write I really wanted to
include it in the book because I feel like our
culture is drenched in grief, and I think sadness, fear

(23:15):
of sadness is lodged primarily in the minds of men,
and that being cut off from our feelings. The primary
symptom of that is toxic masculinity, and this inability to
experience grief and to cycle and alloud death is why
we're all so screwed.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Even guys that are really sweet that don't have the
vocabulary to talk about this stuff end up having toxic
masculinity episodes when they are challenged with a difficult conversation
or they don't understand it because they think they're you know,
they don't have It's like there's like a major disconnect.
And I think in the book what you also talk
about very necessarily is even women are conditioned to push

(23:56):
their boys to grow up and be men and act
tough because there's a certain age where, you know, the
cuddling is diminished and the kids start to understand that
maybe holding my mommy's hand isn't what a big boy does,
and then they're not coming to you for comfort and
they're not having emotional outbursts anymore because they're told that's
not what little boys or big boys yeah do.

Speaker 4 (24:16):
Yes, there is this idea, this cultural remnant, that we
have to turn boys into men. And you don't hear
that about women and girls, but there is this masculinization,
this pulling them away from their mother, so that if
you don't do that, they'll be enmeshed or entrapped and
the science actually shows that little baby boys are more feeling,

(24:41):
have more attachment than girls. And so it is a
horrible crime the way that so many boys and I
feel like it's getting better, but we think about our
generation and a lot of empathy for that severing and
that severance, and it's it goes beyond family, right, This
is all cultural re enforce that with each other. So

(25:04):
you're mocked on the playground for crying, you learn fast
right to not do that.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
And I love that you conflate toxic masculinity with like
keeping men away from those feelings of sadness, because what
do we do when we're having an argument. We use
anger as like a shield from what's really underneath, which
is hurt and sadness. You know, That's why so often
you might be upset or you know, shouting or whatever,
and what's really underneath there when you actually get to
it is tears, it's crying, it's you know, it's the

(25:32):
hurt underneath.

Speaker 4 (25:33):
Yes, a thousand percent, anger is often secondary to grief, shame, fear,
and anger is also essential and animating, but it can
often be a protective, a piece of armor.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
But it's also not useful, maybe at times it may
seem useful, like coming from somebody who's naturally pretty angry,
it seemed useful for a long time, but it is
not the way to make my point anymore. And I
down that calm, collected and thoughtful yields to much better results.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
And don't you think, though, that you have learned over
time to metabolize your anger process it, Listen to it,
you don't just suppress it.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
No, no, no, And usually I'm not angry when I
have any time to think about anything.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, when you do skip the anger part, or you
get past the anger part and you get to that
vulnerability and that hurt, Like, that's where resolution can come.
That's the only place resolution can come, is when you're
honest with whatever the hurt is.

Speaker 4 (26:31):
Yeah. But I do think we're so hard culturally on
angry women, and so so many women are swallowing it
their resentment, frustration, rage.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah. Yeah. My friend used to be like, you're so
so rage She's like, why are you so angry? I'm like,
you're more angry than me. I'm just saying it, and
you're fucking suppressing it and talking about everybody behind their back.
What is that a more honorable way? To live.

Speaker 4 (26:57):
Yes, well, and this is this is our conditioning. I mean,
you might be again like an example for all of
us of how to live beyond these sins. But boys
and girls have a lot of aggression. It's very natural
and very human, and boys we let them express it
physically and verbally, and girls we don't. When we don't
teach any kids proper conflict resolution or how to have

(27:18):
healthy conflict, which is an essential life skill, but girls
are taught that they shouldn't be angry. It's not feminine,
it's inappropriate, and so it comes outsideways, gossip, alliance building, backstabbing, exclusion, triangulation, triangulation.
Really it's killing us. And then what's most painful about

(27:40):
that is that it's then ascribed to us as our
natural instinct like this, that's how you are, That's how
you are. And it's no, we're just not interrupting these
cycles and talking about learning how to talk about our
feelings and our aggression and our frustration openly and productively.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
I heard this couple talking on Instagram, this older couple
talking about their child coming forward about you know, being
born a boy but identifying as a girl from the
time she was a little girl and her parents resisting this,
and you know, their church going and they believed everything
in church and that it was a phase and that
they could you know, they just ignored her. And the

(28:19):
mother had something really powerful to say about when she
finally was able to accept it and sit down and
hear her, which I think is really what it comes
down to, is everybody being seen and heard. When you
are heard by the people that love you like, that
sets you off on the road to love and acceptance.
It sets you up for success, to be accepted by

(28:42):
your parents and loved and encouraged no matter what you are,
just for that embrace and the rejection of that sets
you on the road that can be irreparable. Yes, and
this woman said, as soon as I accepted what my
child was telling me, and as soon as I sat
down and listened to her, and my husband and I
stopped fighting and just started hearing, she goes, the love

(29:06):
that my daughter had like lit her up. She goes,
she felt so loved by us, and she her whole
energy and dynamic changed and she finally was like happy
and joyful just by the act of her parents accepting.

Speaker 4 (29:20):
Yes. Yes, I mean it's so powerful and that's all
that any of us want is to be seen, heard,
but more intensely understood, I think.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Not labeled, understood, you know. And this is a conversation
that came up around that video because I watched it
with a friend of mine and she was like, I said,
don't you think most people's fear about their children being
trans is that they're going to endure all this abuse
and that they're you know, they're going to be subjected
to such discrimination and you know, bad behavior. And she said, no,
I think some parents that a parent's outlook should be

(29:54):
oh no, I'm going to make sure that everybody knows
as much as they know about this, and I'm going
to protect you and I'm going to be there right
by your side. That's the way they could be looking
at it. And I thought, oh wow, yeah, that is right.

Speaker 4 (30:06):
Yeah, no, And I'm sure it's a whole wash. I mean,
my brother is gay and we grew up in Montana,
and I remember when he came out it was right
around Matthew Shepherd, right, and so my parents, who are
really progressive, were we all knew, right, But a big
part of it was major understandable fear about what would

(30:26):
happen to him Ben in the wider world, and he
didn't say in Montana or yeah, no, of course he.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Didn't say Montana. Why would you. I wouldn't go to Montana.
Montana's beautiful, I think, by the way, Actually, so I
guess I do just go there. I'm not sure.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
I think that's where I did my back to schools shop.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Oh right, right, right, right right on the other side
of the path. Okay, Well, we are going to have
some callers, Catherine, are you gonna get us up for
this episode?

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yes, We've got some overwhelmed moms, We've got some people
who need love advice, we've got some cheating boyfriends. A
lot of different stuff and all kind of relates to
the patriarchy. So great, We'll take a quick break and
we'll be right back with Elisa and Chelsea.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
And we're back.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
We're back.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, our first question comes from Carter. Carter writes, Dear Chelsea,
for the last eight years, I've devoted most of my
time and energy to my career and family. My parents
and my sibling depend on me for emotional and often
financial support, which puts me under immense pressure. Feeling stretched
thin has become normal for me, and I realized that

(31:34):
I haven't had any real fun in a very long time.
I'm thirty two, single and way too responsible for my age.
How do I start to bring joy back into my life?
What are some easy ways to begin to make joy
a habit? Thank you both for the wisdom you share
on the podcast.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Carter to practice joy, Well, I guess that is a practice.
But once you get it, you have it. So you
got to start practicing because it is a practice. It's
like for my practice is patients, I have to practice that.
I have to practice that, and now it's coming much
more naturally. I think joy is about finding what brings
you the joy, Like what lightens you up where you

(32:11):
feel kind of tingly? Like is it nature? Is it exercises?
It work? Is it reading? Like? What is your passion?
You have to identify certain passions that you have. And
I think when you realize, you know you don't have
to be good at a million different things or like
a million different things, Like you can be drawn to
two or three things, but make them a bigger part
of your life. Like if you're an artist, you need

(32:32):
to create. But I think if you're having trouble finding joy,
then I think instead of looking harder, I would actually
advise you to just be a little bit lighter about
it and take note of yourself, like be in your
body a little bit more and see what brings you joy,
because that's what you have to surround your day around,
you know, Like I love to read books. I need

(32:54):
to read at least like an hour or two hours
a day that brings me deep satisfaction and sometimes joy.
But sometimes you know, it's heavier stuff like reading your
book was so informational and so helpful, but I came
away with such a bigger breadth of knowledge than I
had started your book with, so so worthwhile. But I
think that's what you have to find about out about yourself.

(33:15):
But that's me sounding off. What do you have to say, Elise.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
Well, I'm glad to hear Carter use the word joy
because I think in our culture we're taught to look
for happiness as a steady state, which drives me crazy.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yes, absolutely, that's that's stupid. Also, I want to say
that it's impossible to be happy all the time. Joy
is something separate than happiness.

Speaker 4 (33:35):
It is and it's I think joy can be brief,
fleeting it is that, you know, Catherine's laugh it.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Is overwhelming gratitude for something in your life that can
bring you joy.

Speaker 4 (33:46):
Yes, just that sort of It can be five seconds,
but I think that that's where you start. And finding
those moments where you do laugh out loud or you
have a nice moment with a barista is a great
place to start. And that's the reality of our lives
ups downs, that sort of emotional durability. So that's great
that Carter wants joy and not happiness, because we all

(34:08):
need to unplug from the toxic positivity.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
That's toxic positivity. That's good. Yeah, Yeah, some people are
really annoying with that.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
Yeah, And I think because it's hard. It sounds like
things are hard for Carter. You understand the underside, and
so just developing the upside sort of what you were
talking about, Chelsea. Just a great song. A quick walk
reminds you of what it is to have that full
emotional expression.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, and also to recognize it, you know, take your
time throughout your day to recognize what are the things
that perk you up, even if it's your coffee in
the morning, When you have that moment and you sit
with that moment and experience it, Like even the littlest
of joys, they start to kind of multiply and then
you start to understand and enjoy more and more of them.
So just pay attention to what you're feeling and thinking

(34:59):
for the next few days and pinpoint some of the
things that bring that feeling into your life.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
I think it goes right back to what Alice and
Chelsea were saying at the beginning of the episode, which
is you can't pour from an empty cup. So if
you're giving all of this to your family, to your friends,
to whoever else needs stuff from you, you actually have
to do what you need for you first. Yes, well, Carter,
thank you for writing in and let us know what
solutions you find.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
To give you more carters.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yes, we have our first caller. This is Emily and
she's in her late twenties.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
Is it Emily Dickinson?

Speaker 2 (35:32):
It is, Uh, she's a lie.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
I told her. She texted me earlier. I told her
to call in good. We're on the text thread.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Well, she writes, Dear Chelsea, I'm writing in because I
need some powerful woman love and advice. I just found
out my boyfriend of a year has been dating another
girl almost the entire time. I found photos in his
phone of them together, not snooping, and it makes me
sick to my stomach. She's trashy and she knew about me,
which makes them both disgusting. We were planning our future together,

(36:04):
we were talking about having babies and getting married, and
he was with her the whole time.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Gross.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah, he would go on trips with her and tell
me it was a boy's weekend or he was out
with his family. I need some advice on how to
move on from this and get my power back. And yes,
I dumped his ass, but my heart is broken and
I can't stop picturing them together. Cheers Emily, Oh.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Emily, Hi, Emily, Hi, Hi, this is our guest Elise.
Say hi to Lalise and Catherine.

Speaker 5 (36:31):
Hello, honest to meet you.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
I'm so sorry, honey, that is such a betrayal like
ew that makes me so I can't even imagine how
painful that must be for you.

Speaker 5 (36:41):
Yeah. I was very, very shocked, and he gave me
no warning signs at all, Like I never went through
his phone, like he never gave me any suspicion, So
I was pretty shocked. He also gave me a fake
Instagram account that said it was her and it wasn't her.
So I actually ended up finding out who actually was.
And they've been seeing each other for a couple of

(37:03):
months now, so yeah, I was. I was pretty shocked,
to be honest.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
And so what did he do when you confronted him?

Speaker 6 (37:09):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (37:09):
He gasled me quite a bit. I was like, who
is this girl? And he said that it was his
ex from six years ago and he randomly ran into
her at Harrison Hot Springs together. So I did some
more and he was like, I knew that you would
do this. I know that you would do this, and
it was the U you used that he got me like,
I knew that you would go to Instagram and find
the cell blah blah blah. I'm like it makes no

(37:30):
fucking sense, Like who is she? Just fucking tell me
who she is, you know, And I was just shocked.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah. No, that's traumatizing to have somebody lie to you
on that kind of level.

Speaker 4 (37:40):
Yeah, it's deep betrayal.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
Are you in therapy? No?

Speaker 5 (37:44):
And I actually I listened to your podcast all the time.
I know you love therapy. I have never been to therapy.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
You need to go, I know you need to go.
Because like, that's a terrible thing to have happened to you.
That's a major betrayal of trust, and in order to
work through that in a healthy, really adult way so
that you get through it sooner and you're not holding
onto resentment three or four years down the line. You
need somebody, like a really solid professional to talk you
through this on a regular, consistent level, because nobody deserves

(38:12):
to be treated like that, including yourself. Obviously, you know
that because you broke up with him. So that's the
first best news, is that you broke up with him
and that you have enough strong enough sense of yourself
to know that that's not acceptable to you. So great
for doing that. Good for you. It's hard to break
up with somebody when you love them, but like you
stood up for yourself and you respect yourself, so like

(38:32):
you're already on your road to recovery just by that action. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (38:37):
No, I ripped up his orchid. He got me. I
put all his love letters and I put her on
a box of my patio, and so get your shit.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
So good.

Speaker 5 (38:44):
I'm doing a lot better. I'm in school now to
be a teacher, so I'm just focusing on that and
I'm really, I'm getting back into running and stuff, so
I'm doing a lot better, but I do think I
should probably go to therapy here, right.

Speaker 4 (38:55):
Yeah, because you also need to restore trust in yourself,
and betray is hard in that you think that you
should have seen something or known something that was being
held from you. So you need to primarily restore your
own faith and your intuition and your sense. And then
I heard you also say it doesn't make any sense.

(39:17):
It doesn't make any sense. And so as you heal,
part of it is to disconnect from him energetically and
to stop trying to figure it out or justify it
or wonder what you missed. And it takes a lot
of self control to interrupt that. But you're not going
to figure it out. It doesn't make any sense, No.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
It doesn't. It's not your problem. Really, anybody that duplicitous
isn't your problem. Like that's he's a liar, You excited
him from your life, and like it doesn't matter, and
you picturing him with that girl also doesn't matter. Who
gives a shit? Thank god you're not fucking with him,
thank god. Yes, Like what she did you a fucking
huge solid, So reframe the way you're looking at that

(39:59):
divine intervention. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (40:01):
I even messaged her on Instagram and I said, the
girl a girl, can you just tell me?

Speaker 3 (40:05):
And she just blocked me.

Speaker 5 (40:06):
So I'm like, you have them, honey, he's yours. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, I mean you know what they say if you
wind up with the guy you were like having an
affair with, you were just creating a job opportunity.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
So you know, I think that you are like a
great example of somebody getting through a relationship. I mean, listen,
you still should go to therapy, absolutely, but you seem
very solid and like this is good for women to
be hearing that you're already through the thick of it
in a short amount of time and that you are
identifying all of this kind of self awareness.

Speaker 5 (40:36):
Yeah. No, I let myself cry for a couple of
days and then I was like through this, Like I'm
getting back on my shit. I wrote into you, I
talked to my mom, I talked to my friends, like
I have a really good circle.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
So it just it sucked, you know, Yeah, No, it
does suck, and like, like, listen, that sucked, and hopefully
that will never happen to you again.

Speaker 5 (40:54):
So I won't hopefully I'm not going Yeah, I was
just confused how I didn't see it.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
But that doesn't matter. You can't see things when you're
in them. It. Don't self flagulate or blame yourself for
not identifying a situation as it was like. It may
not have been that way the whole time. It may
have been that you know, it may have developed like
it doesn't matter either. That doesn't matter either. All you
have to know is moving forward, like what you're willing
to tolerate and what you aren't. And you already said

(41:21):
that to the world by breaking up with him, which
is again a strong move, and your headed already in
the right direction.

Speaker 4 (41:27):
Yeah, and don't go forward defended, So do whatever you
can to heal that so that you can go through
life heart open.

Speaker 5 (41:36):
Yes, yeah, no, you're right. I'm just said of hitting
this summer to me and only me and all of
my goals and what I want to do.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
So I love it. Okay, Well, take care. Thank you
so much for calling it, and best of luck to you.
We're sending you total good vibes.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Thank you.

Speaker 5 (41:51):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Thanks Emily, Bye, Emily Bye. That I mean that goes
right back to what we were talking about before with
right now she's in the anger part and she's in
the like fuck that guy whatever. Like that's where she's
at right now, and you know, getting into therapy to
get past that a little bit and into the hurt
processing the heart like that will help her not carry
it with her. Yes, well, should we jump to another caller?

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (42:15):
Our next caller is Amy.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
She is thirty four.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Dear Chelsea, first of all, I adore you both. I'm
writing in because I probably need a swift kick in
the rear. I'm a former high school teacher who left
the profession after ten years, feeling completely beaten down by
the demands of the overall system of what we like
to call public education.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
God, I don't fucking blame you. What a joke.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
I have since focused on my two young children, who
are four and twenty two months. I love being a
stay at home mom, but eventually, sooner rather than later,
I would love.

Speaker 4 (42:46):
To go back to work.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
One career path I can't seem to get out of
my head is to be a personal trainer, more specifically
a coach at Orange Theory Fitness. I've been attending this
gym for about eight years. I have almost nine hundred
classes to my name. The problem is I don't have
the body type you envision when you imagine a personal trainer.
I'm short and chubby, but I'm in great shape. I'm
afraid Jim's won't hire me over this fact, as well

(43:08):
as clients not taking me seriously or believing I don't
know what I'm talking about because I'm in a slightly
bigger body. What do you ladies think? What a slightly
larger bodied person make you not want to take workout
advice from them? Or would it be refreshing to see
a different body type in the gym? Any advice or
opinions are appreciated. You both are doing amazing things and
inspire me Weekly Amy thirty four Nevada.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Hi, Amy, Hi, Hi, how are you?

Speaker 3 (43:33):
I'm amazing, couldn't be better? How are you? Guys?

Speaker 1 (43:36):
This is our special guest at Leise loan In today.

Speaker 4 (43:38):
Yay, so nice to see to meet you.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
Thank you well.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
Have you actually applied or are you still just contemplating this?

Speaker 6 (43:46):
I'm so contemplating. I'm still in this kind of awkward
place in my life where I'm trying to embrace the
stay at home mom life a little bit, but it's
already starting to get to me one year in. So
I'm thinking of avenues to you venture down and I
was thinking, what do I enjoy doing?

Speaker 3 (44:00):
And I really enjoy working out.

Speaker 6 (44:03):
I'm kind of the silly one in my friend group,
and you know, the coaches at my gym are really
upbeat and fun and they like really get you into
your workout.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
And I was like, I could do this. You know,
I was a teacher for ten years.

Speaker 6 (44:14):
I'm really good at being able to delegate my attention
and everything like that. So I was thinking, like, this
might be something I could really do. But I'm worried
about how I look. People might not take me seriously
just because I'm not in the best shape, you know
when you just look at me.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
But I'm in the best shape for myself. But you know,
some people are.

Speaker 6 (44:31):
Really judgmental, and I don't know if I kind of
want to get an outsider's opinion, just if they think
that that would be an issue I would come across.

Speaker 4 (44:39):
Basically, I think you have to go for it. I
think that that whole scene. I think the way that
we equate health with an exterior representation is so profoundly
and deeply flawed. Some of the least healthy people I
know are walking time moms. And I think we're at

(45:01):
the beginning of this culturally. So I'm not going to
say that it's going to be easy, but body diversity
and different experiences of health have got to be present
in places where we work on ourselves and work on
our bodies and think about a lot more women look
like you than they look like you know, a tiny

(45:22):
little spin instructor at that point, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
I think there's a huge opportunity for you to attract
people who are intimidated by a perfectly fit trainer. A
lot of people that turns them off because they feel
like they're being judged by their trainer. So you have
a whole group of women, especially moms, who probably feel
that way and feel intimidated, so they can find somebody
that looks a little bit more like them. It's they're

(45:47):
going to be a little bit more I guess, you know,
feel more comfortable I would say working out. I would
think that would apply to a lot of people. Yeah,
there's a group of people that want their trained to
look a certain way. Then there's a group of people
that want to feel comfortable working out with somebody that
makes them feel good about themselves.

Speaker 4 (46:02):
Yes, a thousand percent.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
Yeah, that's what I was banking on too.

Speaker 6 (46:06):
I was like, you know, if I saw someone like
me when I started out my journey with working out
about eight nine years ago, I think I wouldn't have
been as intivity. I kept putting it off. You know,
I don't want to go to this gym, you know,
it looks scary. But then I finally went and it
was fun. But you know, maybe if I did walk
in and see someone that looked more like myself, maybe
I would have been more inclined to start sooner.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
That's a really good point.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, And I think that's also how you sell it
to someone when you're in a job interviews. It's like,
when I walked in here, I wanted to see somebody
who looked like me, like not just like a size
double zero. I wanted to see somebody who's like an
average size person.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
Without apologizing about your size. And you can advocate for
what they They may have their guardrails up about what
they deem as somebody that can teach there. But I
also wouldn't even limit yourself to orange theory Like this
is great marketing. I could already see like you marketing
to women in your neighborhood and moms, Like, do other
moms want to work out without being judged by everybody
in the gym? Do you guys want to and figure

(47:01):
out fun ways to do that around the neighborhood walking
around or going to a park and meeting up. So
it's not so that there's a fun vibe and there's
kind of movement in the movement, not you know, literally
and physically, like you're actually changing it up and offering
different places to go or different activities. I think you
could just not limit yourself to only thinking you can
just fit yourself into somebody others operation and potentially create

(47:22):
your own business.

Speaker 5 (47:23):
Have you.

Speaker 4 (47:25):
Yeah, not that everyone needs to be a digital influencer,
but I also wonder if you started making some content
just for your friends and family. I think you would
get a lot of positive reinforcement. It might be what
you need confidence wise to see the market for this
and move into it. You don't have to keep doing
it or build a profile, but yeah, I think you

(47:45):
get a lot of feedback.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
That's a really good idea. I didn't even think about.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Thank you, and I love what Chelsea said too. When
my mom was like in her fifties, she and several
of her friends started working out with a gal who
was about your age. She'd built like a whole gym
in her basement, which like depending on your weather situation
where you live, you know, basement outside whatever. But like
that was where they love to go because it was
like a normal person with great equipment, and they would

(48:10):
go and have a great time and chat with the
other ladies. And it wasn't like this like gem gem
gem experience.

Speaker 4 (48:15):
And where our culture is awash with unattainable bodies and
if that's what people need in order to feel inspired,
they have a plethora of opportunities to feel bad about themselves.
And no, but I think it would be revolutionary to
disrupt that narrative and to get comfortable. For people to

(48:38):
see someone who's healthy, strong and has a body that's
attainable and equivalent is really powerful.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
And I think exactly picking off off of what at
least said earlier, make that part of your narrative too,
Like how we define health has been misinterpreted for eons,
and actually healthy and strong and fit are the most
important things to be. It's not about being a size
zero or a size two, especially not for everybody. Nobody.

(49:08):
People aren't naturally like that, and you know, are forcing themselves.
There are people that are naturally like that, good for them,
but that's not natural for most people. So I think
you have a huge opportunity here too, So get get going,
get working.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (49:20):
And I also like how when you had Ben Bruno
and he talked more about how women should be doing
more like weight training, how we're always we go straight
for the cardio, and.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
I was thinking, like, because that's.

Speaker 6 (49:29):
Where I found my passion. I used to hate lifting weights,
and now it's like I look forward to it. Can
I beat my personal record and things like that, And
I want to get people excited like that, and women
excited about that, because I think there's a misinterpretation of
you know, lifting weights for women too. They don't want
to look too bulky or whatever. And I'm like, that's
not a thing like that, It's not a thing.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
I also this just kind of keeps popping into my
mind too. You may want to talk to a therapist
or somebody as well, just to see if there's somebody
dys morphias stuff going on, because if you're limiting yourself
so much like having this question about like am I
good enough to do this? Am I the right side
to do this? There might be just some extra like
body stuff that you need to work out with a therapist.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Yeah, I grew up with an almond mom.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
If you guys know, so, I try to an almond
joy mom. So I have the opposite set of problems.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
You got a trademark that Chelsea. That's great almond joy.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
I see a new commercial.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Yeah, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

Speaker 6 (50:26):
Absolutely, I've all yeah, this was all great advice if
I never thought of so, I just I feel inspired.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
Thank you, I really awesome.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
Great, Well, job is here, problem solved. Everybody can go
home now.

Speaker 6 (50:37):
I will keep you updated on my future endeavors.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Okay, let us know the name of your jim when
you start it.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Your mantra is think Bigger, Think bigger.

Speaker 6 (50:45):
I gotta pick up a gym name with that has
nugget incorporated into it somehow, like you know, nugget.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
Nobody wants to work out with a nugget. But you
could call that think bigger too. That's a good gym name.
Think bigger.

Speaker 4 (50:56):
Bigger is a great name. We are like you have
three CM right now doing your marketing plan.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Love it, love it. Thank you. I appreciate your time,
I really do. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Oh thanks for calling in my pleasure?

Speaker 3 (51:07):
Thank you?

Speaker 4 (51:08):
Why this is so fun?

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Anything we want to expound on?

Speaker 4 (51:11):
I ask her a question?

Speaker 1 (51:13):
Oh yes, oh yes, would you like to ask me
a question? At least? I'm so sorry, how rude of me.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Well, we can take a quick break and we'll be
back with more Alice and Chelsea.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
And we're back.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
We're back, Alisa.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Did you have a question for Chelsea?

Speaker 4 (51:31):
I sure do. Thanks for asking. Catherine. You have a
fearlessness about you, and I'm assuming you've always been a
brave person, but you are someone who says it anyway, right,
you see something, you say something. Do you ever feel
scared and what do you do in those.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Moments scared of saying something, just being.

Speaker 4 (51:55):
Who you are in the world.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Oh, I have fears. But everyone always asks me this question,
and I take it as a compliment that people think
I'm so fearless. I think I'm not really sure. I
haven't digested it fully because I don't feel fearless. I
definitely feel brave, but I have lots of fears, and
I make it my business to kind of work push
through like go you can do it, like every time

(52:18):
you get over a fear, the level of the confidence
that you feel, and the I think self security is
the biggest thing that I have. Like, I know I
can depend on myself. I know I'm not going to
let anything get too carried away, not for anybody else
and not for myself, and that if someone asks me
to do something, I have complete confidence in my competence.

(52:40):
You know, as long as it doesn't involve technology, like
anything emotional, any sort of draatic thing, Like I can
help somebody and I can actually deal with it myself.
But I think it's from stepping through fear over and
over and over again. I think there's so many different
nuances of fear and how that plays out in your life.
You know, you can be fear full, you can live
in fear, or you can just have a fear of

(53:02):
certain things. You know, it depends how and do you
let it run you? And no, I do not let
it run me.

Speaker 4 (53:09):
Yeah, And how do you interrupt it in that moment
or do you just feel it or do you do
you have a practice?

Speaker 1 (53:15):
Yeah, I mean I'm very into like meditation. For the
past like five years, I've been really practicing meditation. And
this isn't fear based necessary, Yes, it is fear based.
This is a good example. Then last week I thought
I got some bad news about something. I just looked
at it and thought, oh, that's not good, Like I
was expecting more from this or a better outcome from that.

(53:38):
And then I had a phone call and I and
that was based on my fear of not being good
enough at delivering something. Right, Like, I was like, wait,
I thought I did a better job at that. They
should have gotten more for that, whatever the net result
of it is, right, And I was like, huh, maybe
I'm not doing a good enough job. And then I
had a phone call assessing the information we got, and
it turns out I did a fucking great job, right.

(53:59):
It turns everything was great. We did everything we wanted
we set out to do, and it worked in many ways,
multiple levels that I hadn't even seen yet until everyone
got together told me. But I chose to go down
the negative route for some reason. And that's fear based.
That's because you think you're not good enough, you're not whatever.
And I remember getting off that call and sitting with

(54:19):
myself for about twenty minutes and saying, next time you
do that, you need to recognize that A you don't
have all the information. B where is this coming from?

Speaker 4 (54:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Why do you care so much about this specific outcome?
Unless it's based on fear and that needs to be
identified in the moment, and then it's easier to deal with.
I think. Yeah, anyway, do we have time for one
more question from a caller too? Unless at least do
you have any more questions?

Speaker 4 (54:46):
So many?

Speaker 1 (54:47):
Well?

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Yeah, I just have one more email from Nicole. She
is in her forties. Dear Chelsea, I would love your
opinion on a recent dilemma with our thirteen year old daughter.
She and her friends are having a costume party and
are dressing in similar themes. Her costume idea was super cute.
She was going to be the Queen of hearts. However,
when she showed me her inspiration or esthetic board, I

(55:10):
was taken aback. We're talking corset, platform heels, miniskirt, thigh
high hose. To give you a little backstory of my daughter,
she's very independent, self motivated, and an incredibly smart eighth grader.
She prides herself in making straight a's even though I
think she's too intense about it. And she's a terrific
performer who's done musical theater since she was seven. She

(55:31):
started her period in sixth grade and her body changed
almost overnight. She has big boobs, just like her mama.
I have been very intentional about not body shaving my daughter. However,
when she tried on the corset she bought, I was
at a loss. I told her I thought it was
inappropriate for her age, and she freaked out. She even
said she wanted to dress slutty for the costume party

(55:51):
and knows it's a cliche but doesn't care. While I
appreciate her honesty and confidence, I just don't know how
to tell her she shouldn't dress this way without making
her feel ashamed of her body. Am I in the
wrong here? How do I help her stay age appropriate
and still love her body? Thanks Chelsea Nicole, Well.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
At least I know you don't have any daughters, but
you're the only parent here, so I have to let
you go first.

Speaker 4 (56:13):
Okay, I have a lot of feelings about this. Okay,
So Peggy Ornstein, he's an amazing journalist. She was telling
me a story about talking to a boy. She writes
a lot about kids and sexuality, and he was talking
about his girlfriend and he said she's sexy but not sexual.
And I thought that that distinction was so critical and key,

(56:35):
because I think with a lot of kids, girls specifically,
they are wanting to be sexy and they are not
yet really sexual. They don't have a full sense of
their own sexual power. I don't know, maybe they've all
maybe they're far more advanced than I was at that age,
but I worry a lot about the performance of sexuality

(56:59):
for an audience and the objectification when you don't even
know yet what it is. And then you know. I
know that we're in a time where which I respect
not slept shaming girls or talking about their bodies body
shaming them, But culturally we are not there. We still
live in a culture that is incredibly patriarchal, where of

(57:23):
one thousand sexual assault cases, only twenty five ever progressed
to trial. It is not safe for girls. You are
expected to be the babysitter of rapacious male desire. Whatever
happens to you is your fault. This is the culture
that we live in. And so I think not acknowledging

(57:47):
that and pretending that it's all fair for girls is
not is a gross to service. So it's not about
shaming her about her body. It's about making sure that
she can keep her self safe. And I recognize that
no girl should be responsible for keeping herself safe and
that it's fucked up, but unfortunately that's where we are.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
I think you said that so beautifully. There's also I know, Chelsea,
you can speak to this too, there's also a shitty
thing that happens when you have bigger boobs of like
you can put on the same exact dress as your
friend next to you with small boobs, and like you
look quote unquote sluttie. You look like you're trying to
be more sexual than your meaning to be because your
breasts are larger. Like that's definitely an experience I've had.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
For sure, I felt that way too, But I also
want to counter argue, like I get all those things,
and I understand you're saying. Everything you're saying is true,
But I also think at eighth grade, a girl who
has shown responsibility and shown good judgment should be given
the right to make these kinds of decisions on her
own and then see where that lands, Like see she's

(58:55):
going to school, you know, like hopefully that's a safe
place for her to try to exercise her freedom and
the way she wants to dress. And maybe she'll come
back from that and be like, oh, I don't want
to I don't like I don't like that kind of attention. Yeah,
or I don't like the way people are looking at me,
and maybe she won't. Maybe she'll come back and go
I liked that. I liked that a lot. But again,
you can't control her experience with that, like at a

(59:17):
certain age, especially the way girls dress now, they show
everything at a young age, you know that the things
that they're exposed to. And I agree with especially what
you're talking about regarding sexuality and sexy because I do
think girls are more innocent these days. They're exposed to
more on the internet, yet they have less experience in person,
which is I guess you know this has been a

(59:39):
hot topic of conversation with boys and girls, adolescents and
everything in between, and nine binary children as well, Like
you want your own agency, You want your kid to
be able to make decisions and understand what those decisions
lead to, especially something that I understand why you're asking,
but overall, this seems pretty innoc to me. I don't

(01:00:01):
think it's a major big deal. You know, it's not
like she's sexually active all of a sudden and you
don't know how to handle that, because that's something that
could also happen in the eighth grade. We're talking here
just about an outfit, and it might be worth the
experience of her wearing that to understand if she wants
to wear something like that again.

Speaker 4 (01:00:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Now, my sister calls that the natural consequences. She talks
about this with her kids a lot who are now teenagers,
Like my niece Lucy, she wanted to wear high heels
to school, and my sister was like, you know, the
natural consequence to that are you can, but your feet
are gonna hurt at.

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
The end of the day.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
And of course it came home with like terrible feeling
feet and blisters and all this stuff, and it's like,
that's the natural consequences. But yeah, letting her go to
school and see how she likes that attention, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
I think so. I think I mean it's nice to
give people some responsibility also instead of parenting them at
that age in that way, I think it's a good like,
that's a good self esteem booster to kind of be
have your own you make your own decisions on certain fronts,
to see how you make them, Yeah, and practice making them.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
Yeah. I think that's all fair And I don't want
to be sound so puritanical. I just like any girl
we can save from.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Sexual predatory behavior, toy behavior. Yeah, but can we save
anyone from that? You know what I mean? Like, can
you really save somebody from that?

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
I don't know, I know, I think I think it's
kind of both of these answers. It comes down to
like is it a safe sandbox to be playing in?
Like is she going to a safe place? Or is
she like going out into the city? Like not great?

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Okay, guys, this is your opportunity. The book is called
On Our Best Behavior, the Seven Deadly Sins, and The
Price Women Pay to Be Good. It's written by Elise Lonan.
Please order your books or go to your independent bookstores
and buy a copy of this book. It is very
important reading. Elise. Thank you so much for being here too.

Speaker 4 (01:01:50):
So fun.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
It's so nice to talk to real people right and
give advice. I love it. I love it. Thanks guys,
We'll see you next week, Bye bye, bye bye.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Katherine Law and
be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot
com