Encore: S04 Ep 08 - Grace and Finn’s Escalating Arguments

This week, we’re in session with Grace and Finn, a young married couple who struggle to keep their disagreements from turning into full-blown arguments they later regret. We help them identify what goes wrong and give them practical tools for substituting faulty assumptions and accusations with openness and vulnerability.

 

If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at [e-mail].

 

Subscribe for free to Dear Therapists to stay up to date on all the latest episodes.

 

Follow us both online:

 

LoriGottlieb.com and on Twitter @LoriGottlieb1 and Instagram @lorigottlieb_author

 

GuyWinch.com and on Twitter @GuyWinch and Instagram @Guy Winch

 

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Deo Therapists.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront the problems in their lives and
then give them actionable advice and have them report back
to let us know what happened when they did what
we suggested.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week, a young married couple wants to learn how
to stop their arguments from escalating into destructive screaming matches.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
My sister moved in with us and there's been rules
that need to be set in place for the household.
We've had certain disagreements and it always ends with arguments
to where we don't even want to talk to each
other anymore.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
First, a quick note, Deo Therapists is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's
not a substitute for professional health health care advice. Diagnosis
or treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to
let iHeartMedia use it in part or in full, and
we may edit it for length and clarity. In the
sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed for the
privacy of our guests. Hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do

(01:19):
we have in our mailbooks today?

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Today we have a letter from a woman who wants
to know how she and her fiance can learn to
not turn every discussion into a screaming match. And we're
actually going to have both of them on to talk
about that. And here's the letter. Dear Therapists. I am
in a ten year relationship with my now fiance, Finn.

(01:42):
We have grown up together and he's my best friend.
I absolutely love him. He is a police officer and
his line of work has trained him not to show emotions.
I work as a therapist. Great combination.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Recently his sister moved in with us, and that has
really pushed us to argue about household rules. Sometimes I
feel so alone, and I've expressed this to him. He
is receptive, but I worry that the stressors we face
now are minimal compared to the ones that we may
face later. On down the line when we get married
and have children. We have gone through so much change
over the last ten years, but I feel like we

(02:17):
argue like our teenage version of ourselves. Sometimes we say
things that really hurt each other and we don't communicate well.
I really want us to fight better, because I know
we feel like we are both losing sometimes. I would
love your support in helping us to connect and identify
unhealthy communication patterns. We'd like to learn how to have
a discussion without turning it into a screaming match. Thank you, Grace.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Grace and Finn have been together since they were young,
and it sounds like they might have grown and evolved,
but their communication together has not. So they really do
need to learn very different habits than habits they've already
established over ten years. And I'm very glad we have
both of them here because it really does require two

(03:00):
to change your communication style.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
And what I like too about this letter is that
she's not saying the problem is with my partner. A
lot of times we get these letters and people say,
my partner does this, How do I get them to change?
And what she's saying is we both do this, and
we both need to learn how to change. So let's
go meet them and see how we can help. You're

(03:24):
listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be
back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
So Hi Grace, Hi Finn.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Thanks for coming on the show.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Thanks for having us.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yes, thank you so much for having us.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
You're very welcome. We'd love to hear a little bit
about how you guys got together when, and just how
the relationship has been over the past ten years.

Speaker 4 (03:58):
We started dating high school, so we've been together since
we were teenagers, and there's just been a lot that
has happened throughout the last ten years, like surviving like
long distance while I was in college. Finn is from
out of state and so he has family over there
in so just having to juggle like visiting them too.

(04:20):
We've had a lot of successes in our careers and
also like in our personal lives of getting a house
and getting engaged, and so I think it's been really good,
but there's also been like really difficult moments too.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Tell us about the difficult moments.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
There's just a lot of things that happened growing up together,
just having to figure out how to be in a
relationship and like stay in one, but also being able
to find like our own identities and that now we
have a house and Finn's sister recently moved in, and
that's just been a little bit difficult because we haven't
lived together for a terribly long time. I think it's

(04:59):
been be.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
A year to no, about two years now.

Speaker 4 (05:03):
Two years, so eight of those years that we were
together we didn't live together. It's just been kind of
difficult navigating that different dynamic of having somebody else there.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
You were tearing up when you talked about that You've
been through some hard things. Could you give us an
example of what some of those hard things were and
what makes you feel emotional when you think about them.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
I think just when me and Finn were younger, I
was off in college and there was just a lot
of things that I did that I wasn't like super
proud of. Lying a lot there was just I think
a lot of pain cause because of that. And so
even though there had been a lot of really good

(05:48):
and beautiful moments, there's also been a lot of difficult
ones as well, including that period of time.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Can you tell us what the lies were about and
how the two of you got through that.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
Sure, we were young teenager and as most teenagers do,
we experiment with most commonly like marijuana, and I was
heavily against drinking alcohol, smoking, and some of the difficult
things that we went through were I guess Grace wanted
to experiment a little more with that, and when I

(06:19):
would ask her questions about it, she would lie to
me and say that she was home, when in reality
she was with friends smoking stuff like that that created
trust issues between us, and then when she went off
to college a couple hours away, I just feel like
that there were still trust issues, which created more issues
within our relationship, and it just made it difficult as

(06:40):
we got older.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's interesting because in your letter, Grace, you said that
the two of you don't know how to disagree without
something turning into a screaming match. And I think that
this is an example early on where instead of something
turning into a scream match, you disagreed about something and

(07:02):
you both kind of avoided it. I don't want to
talk to you about the fact that I want to
do something different, so I'm going to lie. So that
we don't have to have some kind of confrontation.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yeah, I think that happened, and so sometimes does happen.
I've tried to really encourage Finn and even myself to
have really difficult conversations because avoiding them hasn't helped us.
But sometimes it's really difficult because when we get into arguments,

(07:35):
I feel like I'm usually the one having to bring
them up, and sometimes I just get tired of it
because I like want Finn to bring up the things
that he is feeling and experiencing, but that doesn't always happen.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
When these lies were happening, how did you deal with
the fact that the lies were discovered? And then how
did the two of you prepare that?

Speaker 3 (08:03):
So as far as discovering it, I feel like I
would just ask a lot of questions and the answers
wouldn't add up to me. So I'd ask further questions
like where are you here, let me FaceTime you, and
I'd get a response It's like, well, I'm in my room,
I'm falling asleep, it's dark, and I'd say, well, turn
on the light. It was just questions like that that

(08:23):
would give me the answers to tell me that I
was being live to. In reference to how we got
through it, I feel like maybe communication. I remember talking
about it, apologies, tears as I'm being told it's not
going to happen again.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Did you believe that that it wouldn't happen again?

Speaker 3 (08:42):
I did. This was towards the end of high school. Yes,
and then when she went to college, we were about
a two and a half hour drive away from each other.
And what I'm saying is incidents like those just didn't
make it easier being in a long distance relationship.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Grace mentioned that she brings up difficult conversation and she
wishes you would do more of that. In terms of
the trust and repairing that rupture from late high school
and the colleges. Do you feel that's repaired on your end,
and if not, do you bring it up as something

(09:17):
to discuss and figure out.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
I don't bring that topic up, per se. I feel
like we do trust each other. I feel like that
was our high school selves that made those mistakes, and
I know that people grow and mature, they become different
people as they get older. We haven't had any recent
issues when it comes to lying, So I feel like,
in reference to me trusting Grace. That's gotten a lot better.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
You know, the patterns get set up really early in
a relationship, and the two of you got together at
a certain time in life when you're still figuring out
who you are, you're still developing emotionally. You haven't had
a lot of experience in relationships because you guys were
a primary relationship very early on. And so I'm thinking

(10:04):
about not only the lies, but this question of what
do you do when you fundamentally disagree about something? How
do you tolerate difference in the relationship. You've Finn said
I'm not okay with smoking and drinking, and Grace thought,
this is the time that I want to experiment with that.

(10:26):
And I'm sure over the course of the last ten
years you've had other fundamental disagreements about things, because two
different people will have different ideas at times. So how
did the two of you deal with those times when
you have different ideas about things? You're both looking at
each other and smiling.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
And maybe you can tell us about one more recent
example of a disagreement and how you've dealt well or
not with it.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
Right.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
I feel like, for example, when Grace mentioned that my
sister moved in with us, and there's been rules that
need to be set in place for the household. We've
had certain disagreements and it always just ends with just
arguments to where we don't even want to talk to
each other anymore.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
And to be clear with both of you, when we
talk to couples, couples never argue about world peace. They
argue about the towel on the floor, the suck in this.
So we know it's going to sound trivial. That's what
couples argue about. But give us an example of house
rules that you'd argue about.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
The most recent one was I've really struggled with food
and body and people's bodies. And something that's been really
difficult is Finn's sister used to make a lot of
comments about people's bodies. And it was really difficult because
sometimes Sin, me and his sister would be home and

(11:50):
she would make these comments, but Finn wouldn't hear them.
And I think, like just growing up, that was always
something that was in my household, so I just didn't
want it and like my and so it was something
that I had talked to her about and something that
she said she was going to work on but then
it continued to happen. And I know that when you
set a boundary sometimes it needs to be restated, but

(12:12):
I just felt really unheard. That's what happens a lot
when we disagree. I just feel very unheard. And so
that time we had like a really bad argument because
I had told him she had made a comment and
I would really appreciate if he would say something when
those things would come up as well, not just me.

(12:35):
And then something that made me really upset was he
had said that she had gone to him and whispered
in his ear that she had lost weight. And even
though I had told him that's something that I don't
want to be discussed here, I just got really upset
because why didn't you say something about like stopping it?

(12:56):
And he did it? And I don't know. That was
just a really hard argument. I had left the house
that night just because I didn't want to talk about it.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Then can you tell us you a side of that, please?

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Sure? So she's always struggled with her weight, and if
somebody makes any negative comments towards anybody's body type, she
does not like it, which is understandable. I guess it
wasn't aware that she had this conversation with my sister about, hey,
in our household, we're not going to speak about body types,
body weight, anything like that. So my sister one day
came up to me and said, I've lost some weight,

(13:29):
which was her goal, and I said, oh, well, hey,
good for you. You know, she's telling me about one
of her accomplishments. So I told her a good job.
And later on, Grace and I had this conversation about, hey,
we don't want these conversations being brought up in the household,
so I brought it to her attention. I said, well, hey,
my sister recently made this comment to me, and I
told her congratulations because she was telling me of one

(13:51):
of her accomplishments. And I just started this massive argument
that why did I say congratulations? Why did I put
a stop to it? That she felt like I was
going against her. I felt like, WHOA, I didn't have
any bad intentions. My sister came up to me to
tell me something. I said, I'm just so I'm good
for you for your accomplishments.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
When you had that disagreement as teenagers, Grace decided to
do what she wanted to do and just not tell
you and you're the opposite, Finn. Your sister said that
to you without Grace there, So technically you didn't have
to tell Grace that your sister had that private conversation
with you, but you did. And then it turned out

(14:33):
that there was a very negative consequence to telling the truth.
If Grace back then had told you the truth, there
probably would have been a very negative consequence too. Actually,
I'm in the backyard smoking with my friends. You would
have gotten really upset, so so you're smiling. So I
just want to point out that pattern that it's kind

(14:55):
of like, if you don't tell the truth, you create
a trust issue, and if you do tell the truth,
you get into a huge argument. So there's no good
solution here in the current way that the two of
you communicate.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
And my question would be, were you arguing the same
points twenty times, which is how arguments tend to escalate.
You just make the same point again and louder, or
with more of an exclamation point. I just want to
get a sense of how that escalated into you not
sleeping in the house.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
I was just working really hard to set boundaries with
his sister about what was allowed and not allowed in
the house. I just wanted Fenn to say, hey, Grace
has already set that boundary, but the fact that he
didn't just made me feel like he didn't respect the
boundaries that I was trying to set.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Finn was saying that he didn't think that violated the
boundary because it was said in confidence. Maybe he shouldn't
have conveyed that to you, but that was just something
between he and his sister. They could have discussed it
on a walk or something not in the house. The
boundary is really about her saying things in front into view.
That's where the disagreement is on the principle between the
two of you in this case, did you talk about

(16:06):
that principle?

Speaker 3 (16:08):
I feel like she just doesn't want any conversations about
weight or body types. And what I was trying to
explain to her was I didn't feel right telling my sister, Hey,
I know you're coming up to me. You're confiding in
me with your accomplishments about losing weight, which was your goal,
and I didn't want to answer and just say, well,
stop stop, I don't want to hear anything. We're not

(16:28):
having these conversations here in this household. It's not allowed
because if that was me, and I was trying to
reach a goal, and I finally told somebody like, hey,
this is my goal and I've accomplished it. I would
feel really bad if somebody told me, don't tell me
about that price.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Just to be clear, is your request that these conversations
not happen in front of you, or that these conversations
never happen at all?

Speaker 4 (16:49):
I guess she's not in front of me, but it
makes it really difficult to hear that. Finn. I guess
was praising weight loss specifically with his sister because she
had told me I'm skipped meals, I'm not eating, so
it wasn't accomplished in like a very healthy manner, and
in my head, it was like perpetuating in eating disorder.
But he didn't have that information.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
Finn, what was your purpose in telling Grace that you
had had that private conversation with your sister.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
I believe the topic had came up somehow that night,
and I told her, well, hey, I just want to
tell you just so it doesn't come up later on.
She says, well, why don't you tell me? And then
it just blew up, like if I had just completely
betrayed her.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
You know what's interesting about this specific argument, and I'm
not sure this one's typical, but your sister, Finn, actually,
by coming to you when Grace isn't in the room,
whispering it just in case she's in earshot, she's actually
abiding by the boundaries Grace, that you set, because she
did interpret them to me, not in front of you.
She was trying to abide by those boundaries by having

(17:54):
it as a private conversation with her brother. And I
just want that to be there as well, because Grace,
your feeling is I don't feel heard and I don't
feel seen. But in this case, she was actually doing
it because she had you, and that's why it was
in a whisper even when you went in the room.
Do you see that, Yeah?

Speaker 4 (18:15):
I do.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
I'm wondering if the two of you would try a
little experiment right now, could you have that conversation again
right now, just so we can hear what it sounds like, Finn,
If you could start at the point in the conversation
where you told Grace that this had happened with your sister,
don't try to recreate what actually happened. We want to
hear you just right now. How would it sound if

(18:38):
you had the conversation right now.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
So with what we're recently talking about, I just want
to let you know that my sister did come up
to me. She told me that she had lost some
weight and she whispered it to me, and she was
excited about her goal. So I told her, good job, congratulations.
I just thought i'd let you know, thank you for
leving me.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
Now, where are you at right now, Grace, because you
seen him and that obviously is not how the original
discussion went. So this issue goes, what are you feeding
right now?

Speaker 4 (19:06):
When Laurie asked about why Finn had brought that up,
I don't think that it was to let me know
in case I found out. We were in a really
like heated argument.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Already about what.

Speaker 4 (19:19):
So we had brought her a donut and she had said,
yike's two donuts in one day, like not a good thing.
And so then I went to the room told him,
and she makes comments like that, would you mind helping
me reinforce the boundary? And then he kind of paused

(19:39):
and he said yeah. But then I took that as
he didn't actually like want to do that, even though
he was saying he did. He said, so, do you
just not want any conversations to be had about this?
I said, well, yes, like I don't want that to happen.
And He's like, she actually came up to me and
was said this and like secret because she didn't want

(20:01):
you to hear it, And so it sounded more of
like because of the way that you think this is
now the consequence of that of people having to tiptoe
around you, and so it didn't seem like it was
I'm telling you this because I don't want you to
find out later. It was more I'm telling you this
because I'll get the disruption that you're causing.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
This is really tricky and nuance to be clear, because
this was almost like a provocation. He is a donut
and then she responds to the doughnuts spontaneously by saying, oh,
it's too in one day, so she had her own
reaction because she has her own issues, perhaps with weight
and food. And my question for you, Finn is, if
you disagree about where the boundary is or what's a

(20:40):
reasonable boundary, do you feel comfortable if you have a
different position to voice it on a topic that's a
really sensitive topic for Grace.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
I don't feel one hundred percent confident.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Can you tell Grace your point of view?

Speaker 3 (20:53):
So that night I had explained that my point of
view was if somebody came to me telling me their
goals and their achievements and they were happy about it,
I didn't want to shut them down. Now if it
was having some sort of negative impact where they were
disrespecting you, I would have immediately put a stop to it.
The other thing I explained to you was, for example,
if I was working toward my goals and I was

(21:15):
finally reaching them, it would feel really good if somebody said, hey,
good job. And then when you told me that that
still wasn't okay, I just felt like, okay, Well, then
I don't want to say anything around you.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
You guys are talking about the content, and what we
would like you to talk about is the process. So
you can argue the different points about anything. We happened
to be talking about this weight boundary, but we could
be talking about any of the many arguments that the
two of you have had, And the process is what

(21:45):
Grace was picking up on earlier, which is that she
suspects and I suspect that she's right that you feel
a bit constrained by this boundary, and you're also not
sure where the boundary begins and where it ends. So
can you talk to her about what the two of
you do when you feel like I want to help
make you feel comfortable and at the same time this

(22:08):
is making me so uncomfortable that we need to find
someplace where we both feel comfortable.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Something that we've argued about which I feel like everything
ties in together has been jealousy. We've recently had arguments
about jealousy and coworkers texting me where there was no
the conversation ever went anywhere other than work related conversations.
There was this big argument to where she went through

(22:36):
my phone, went through my social media pretty much, and
I explained to her this goes back to the trust
issues as well. I said, you can look through my phone,
but I just want to let you know that if
you go through that, you're telling me how much you
trust me. I know I'm not hiding anything. After I
explained that to her, she still went through it, and
I said.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Okay, can you tell Grace how you feel about what happened?
And then Grace, I want you to tell Finn how
you feel about these texts. And what you see. We
want to stick with, not the facts and not whether
nobody's right or wrong here. So there's no let me
tell you why I'm right. It's let me tell you

(23:12):
how this makes me feel. That's all we want to hear.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
So when you want to go through my phone, are
you started questioning me about text messages? I feel like
maybe you just don't trust me, and I don't know.
It makes me question whether I'm doing something wrong. I
go through my messages, I go through my phone, and
it's just I feel like a bad person for some reason,

(23:37):
even though I feel like I'm not doing anything wrong.

Speaker 4 (23:40):
Yeah, I feel like because of the history that we've
had with lying, sometimes I think that you're going to
do something back because I hurt you like years ago.
And so when I see a reoccurring coworker's name pop up,
I just start to put in information that isn't there

(24:04):
and makes me wonder about a lot of things, even
though you've never given me a reason to feel that way.
Sometimes those thoughts are so big that I have to
do something and check and make sure.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Grace, you're sitting with a lot in that moment, and
you do have to do something about those feelings. Does
it occur to you that one of the things you
could do is come to Finn and say, hey, you know,
I sometimes get these feelings that you haven't totally forgiven
me or gotten over those lies I told you years ago,
back in high school and college, and it makes me

(24:41):
worry that you're still holding some kind of anger or
resentment and that that will be expressed in some kind
of way. So when I see a coworker's name come up,
immediately go to is that how it's being expressed. I
have these worries and fears, and I thought I should
tell you about them, because I know you haven't given
me any reason to be concerned or suspicious, but I

(25:02):
thought you should know where my mind goes. Has it
a goed to you that you can just go with
the feeling without actually the behavior that signals I don't
trust you, But to convey I do trust you here,
I'm sharing.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
This what you're saying to you guys obviously the most ideal,
but I think that Finn has sometimes a difficult time
with receiving emotions and expressing them, and so if I
think it will be met with while I'm not doing
anything or the emotion won't be touched on.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
Can you tell him what would be a response that
would feel really comforting and reassuring to you?

Speaker 4 (25:43):
Yeah. I think if I were to come to you
and tell you about what was coming up for me,
I think something that would be helpful is I think
sometimes like when I come to you, you ask like, well,
why why do you feel that way? And I think
it would just be helpful for you to respond with

(26:04):
I would never want to like hurt you in that
way of having that reassurance, I think like that would
be helpful in those moments.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Would it help if he give you a hug in
those moments?

Speaker 4 (26:20):
Yeah? And I think it would be helpful if you
gave me like a.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Hug, Finn.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
How does that sound to you?

Speaker 3 (26:27):
I hear what she's saying, and what I've expressed in
the past is almost like if I were to apologize
to what she says, I feel like I'm kind of
accepting what she's saying as to you know what, You're right,
I am.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
Did you hear that she was asking for you to
apologize for something? Is that how you heard it?

Speaker 3 (26:48):
I heard she wants to be heard. I know that actually.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
She wants to be reassured. M that's what she wants.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
But also there's going to be a critical difference, Grace,
in terms of how Finn hears it. If you say
it the way I suggested, in which you say, I
have these worries and concerns, they might not be reasonable.
I'm going back so many years, but I'm sharing my
anxiety with you. Sounds very different than sometimes I worry

(27:19):
if you're doing such and such, if you come from
the place of this might be me as opposed to
it's you. Because when Finn hears as I'm feeling suspicious,
he hears that as therefore you did something that triggered that,
as opposed to I'm still dealing with some of these feelings,
and this is what comes up, which sounds much less
an accusation, And I think that's what would make it

(27:40):
much easier for Finn to just stay with reassurance if
he knew that's what you needed, as opposed to feeling
like he has to defend himself because there's a subtext
of accusation.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
I do catch myself often trying to defend myself, and
that's been another argument in itself. For example, if she'll
ask me questions, why is she texting you? Why does
her name always pop up? Why does she always ask
you questions? Why does she call her husband? And I
answer her questions, I say, well, I have more experience
than my career to what I could help this person out.

(28:16):
And after I get my explanation, and she'll say, I
just don't understand why she's texting you, though I feel
it's almost like I'm being interrogated.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Or it's an attack.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
Correct, an attack? That was the word I was about.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
To say, Greece. It's interesting that the trust issues come
up because you were the one who lied to Finn,
and yet you question whether he's going to retaliate and
be dishonest with you. So he hasn't done anything that

(28:47):
has made you question whether you can trust him. And
I'm wondering, given that some of this has to do
with your insecurity, have you ever explored any of that
your own history in therapy?

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
I currently go to therapy every week, and that's something
that has been the focus most recently, the history of
my confidence, because I feel like something that I've discovered
in therapy is engaging in self sabotaging behaviors, and I
know that it can be like overwhelming for Finn sometimes,

(29:22):
and so I have expressed I hope that you don't
get tired and like leave. He has never said he
was going to, but you know, I just feel like
sometimes people can only take so much.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Well, that's the self sabotaging. Though. You're worried that he's
going to leave, so then you try to control him
in all these different ways, which might actually not make
him leave, but make him feel less close to you. Yeah,
So the very thing that you're afraid of, by trying
to control him so that it doesn't happen, might actually

(29:58):
make him feel overly controlled, and then he's going to
feel distant from you. So we're suggesting that there are
other ways. It sounds paradoxical, but to be less controlling
will actually allow him to come closer to you. Yeah,
And that's where you're going to have to deal with
your anxiety, because it's your anxiety that you're bringing to him.

(30:21):
It's not anything that he's done. It's this anxiety about
whether you are worthy of his interest, and he's not
doing anything. And you agree with that, I think in principle, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
I do agree. I do agree that he isn't doing
anything and hasn't done anything.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Finn, how does that feel to hear that? For her
to say he isn't doing anything and he hasn't done anything.
This huge smile swept over you.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
She's acknowledged that in the past, And what makes me
smile is that I feel like, although that's been acknowledged,
the argument have still come up.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
And Finn, have you acknowledged to Grace how that makes
you feel in those moments? Have you been able to
say to her something like, you know, Grace, I'm trying
really hard to understand how you feel. But sometimes when
it it's about your anxiety, and it comes out in
a way that makes me feel that I'm defending myself

(31:21):
a lot. And I don't feel resentful, but I might
if this continues.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
I think we've had that conversation.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
You've said those things.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
So we have this huge walking closet and it's in
our bedroom and one time we were sitting in there
and we actually had a calm conversation. We were expressing
our feelings about this topic. In particular, from what I remember,
I thought I had explained that to her about how
I felt about this.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yes he did, he did, Yea, what happened where you
were able to go into the closet and have a
really calm conversation. Is that a place that the two
of you can go and have home or conversations. What
happened that time that went so well, that went so
differently from all of these other conversations that escalate into

(32:08):
screaming matches.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
I might have been getting ready for bed, I don't remember,
but she walked into the closet and she just said, hey,
take a seat. We sat down and we just started talking.
She apologized about things that she has said, and I
believe I also apologize.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
He did express. I just feel like when I'm accused
of these things, it just really upsets me because I'm
doing X y Z to try to build like a
future for us, and it just doesn't feel great. There
was like really deep conversations about emotions I really really like,
and so when I have them with Finn, it just

(32:46):
makes me really like happy when I hear about his
feelings and what's coming up for him. But I feel
like that's very rare.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
But that's why it's so important, Grace and Finn that
we come back to this question that we're asking you
what allowed that to happen in the closet at that time.
What allowed you, Finn, to feel comfortable enough not to defend,
but to actually be vulnerable and talk about your feelings.
What was that?

Speaker 3 (33:15):
I feel like it was when I would tell her
pretty much how I felt, she would look at me
and listen. I remember her specifically just nodding her head
to reassure me that she was listening to what I
was saying.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
I think that what allowed you to say it is
that she says, let's talk, and the talk started with
an apology rather than an accusation. The minute you don't
feel you have to defend, you have more access to
your feelings because you're not busy defending, and you have
a little bit more ability to express them, and then grace,

(33:49):
you have the ability to hear them and appreciate them.
And that's really important to note that when you start
with the anxiety, which finnu here as an accusation or
an attack, then you get defensive. Then those conversations don't
go well. But when you start with a vulnerability and
you respond with vulnerability, then you connect. And that is

(34:13):
key for the two of you to remember that each
being vulnerable is going to allow you to have much
more productive and connective conversations than being defensive or accusatory.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, makes sense, Chrace, what is going on for you
right now?

Speaker 4 (34:31):
I think I just like appreciate guy saying that, I
just want then to be more open.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
To doing that, and I think that he is open
to doing that when he doesn't feel like a big
argument is about to break out. Going back to the
weight issue, for example, do I tell her this? Do
I not tell her this? What do I do? In
this moment? He can't really talk about his experience of

(35:05):
what it's like when he feels like there's no way
to please you. Yeah, because I think ultimately he wants
you to feel good. But sometimes what you're asking of
him feels impossible, confusing, unrealistic. That's where these conversations are
so important. That you, in an ideal world might like

(35:29):
there to be zero discussion of weight, and it's particularly
in your home, and then you have this other person
living with you, and you might reasonably say, look, I
don't want people to discuss diets and weight and their
insecurities in front of me, Okay, but they have to

(35:51):
be able to talk about things amongst themselves because otherwise
they can have their own independent relationship. Yeah, and that
conversation just escalated because there's no room for both of
the perspectives. So I'm wondering if we can just go
back and see if you guys can have a different
discussion right now about weight and what that might look like,

(36:12):
and if you can really invite Finn to share his
feelings about what this is like for him as someone
who thinks you're beautiful, knows your history and wants to
be able to create some harmony in the household and
make you feel comfortable, but also create an environment where

(36:35):
he feels comfortable too. Can you ask him offer an
invitation to him. Both of you need to keep that
in mind that when you're talking to the other person,
you're offering them an invitation. You're not trying to sway them.
You're trying to invite them from a place of curiosity.
Can you make that invitation to him?

Speaker 4 (36:55):
So I want to, I guess, talk about conversation and
how can I make you feel more comfortable.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
How can I reassure you that I'm okay with listening
to what you have to say, that I'll really try
and understand it and hear it with my ears rather
than with my gut.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
I feel like when you ask me questions, especially difficult
topics like this, if I give you a response, you
can't tell me that my feelings are wrong. I feel
like that's what makes it tough.

Speaker 4 (37:27):
So what would make it comfortable or I guess like
more reassuring for you in those moments?

Speaker 1 (37:34):
How can I reassure you that I'm listening and I'm
taking in how you feel.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
I'm thinking about the conversation that we had when we
were sitting in the closet. It was a calm voice,
eye contact. We were not cutting each other off.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
So Finn, can you tell her how you feel about
the boundaries right now that are in the household and
what you would like to see that take into account
Grace's feelings but also yours.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
I know the boundaries that you want set in the household,
to a point, I feel like they were a little vague.
I want more clarification because I feel confused to where
it's like, well, what can be said and what cannot
be said?

Speaker 4 (38:17):
What do you think you would be comfortable with what's
being said.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Me personally if I feel like it's not attacking you,
For example, I've used to say clean food. Right, if
I were to eat certain foods like hey, I don't
want to eat junk food or dirty food, not get
attacked and say, well, food's not dirty. You can't say that.
Comments like that just make me say, okay, well I
don't want to say anything then never mind.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
What was good there, Grace is that you were intent
on following up and understanding. You stuck with it until
he did get to some specificity. You mentioned feedings a
couple of times, and I think it would be good
for you, Finn, to have more of that. For each
of the positions you have. You can have a feeling
behind it. You can say, for example, or try and

(39:03):
stay away from the things I know are problematic. But
if something comes out and it's in the gray area,
it would be great if you just let it go.
So I didn't have to feel like I'm self conscious
about talking about the stop because then I just don't
want to talk about it. So you add a layer
of the emotional impact before the request comes, and that
makes it much easier for Grace to hear and understand,

(39:26):
and you kind of know how you feel. It wasn't
very difficult for you to articulate to get to the feelings,
and that phrasing you use Grace about what would be comfortable.
It's a really useful one, what would be comfortable, because
it's a really considerate question to ask, So there's something
generous in the question alone.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Yeah, and I'm thinking back to that original disagreement that
you guys had about whether Grace could experiment or not
experiment with smoking and drinking, and that's another place where you'
finn felt very strongly the way Grace now feels very
strongly about the way conversations and you tried to control

(40:07):
her and it didn't work out too well. She ended
up lying, She ended up going behind your back. She
wasn't able to say to you, I really want to
experiment with this, saying no, you don't really feel comfortable
with it. I don't want to lie to you, but
I also feel like this is something that I want
to do right now. And maybe she would have or
maybe she wouldn't have. Maybe you would have had a

(40:28):
better conversation about it, and it wouldn't have caused so
much anxiety on both sides because there would have been
room for you to talk about we have this difference
and we're different people and we want to make each
other comfortable, but we also need to live in the world.

(40:48):
Every couple has to manage those questions. How much do
we make the other person comfortable, how much do we
make ourselves comfortable? Where can those overlap where we're both comfortable,
and where are the ways where we have to tolerate
a little bit of difference. And that might be where
you don't like the terminology he uses around something, and
he can be aware of that and try to change that,

(41:09):
But he's also saying, if I happen to use this
terminology because that's what I'm used to, can we just
not make a big deal out of it. I'm trying
in all of these ways, and I want to be
recognized for all the ways that I'm trying to make
you comfortable. But at a certain point I become uncomfortable
because I feel like I can't say anything without me
being bad in your eyes. And same with this question

(41:32):
around the texting and the coworker, where he's saying, I
need you to trust me on this, and I will
be there and give you the hug and give you
the reassurance. But if it happens every single time it's
going to push me away. It's going to be hard
for me to do the thing that you want that
makes you feel comfortable. Grace, which is me being vulnerable

(41:53):
and opening up with you.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, and grace also to recognize that when he said
to you, you can look at my phone whenever. If
you look at it too much, it's going to imply
that you don't trust me, and that will make me
feel all kinds of things. It's the principle of the
access that's reassuring, rather than having to verify that however
regularly by going through the phone. The fact that you

(42:17):
have access should be the reassuring thing and the thing
that you then convey appreciation for.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
And maybe what you're really asking underneath all that is,
can you give me more reassurance that you find me attractive?
Regardless of these texts, I'm, for whatever reason, feeling insecure,
and here are the ways that I would love to
be reassured. Maybe it's verbally, maybe it's nonverbally through touch.

(42:46):
Do you know what those ways are that you like
to be reassured that you feel desired by him? He
looked right at you, like, Oh, I really want to
hear this. So this would be really good information for him.

Speaker 4 (42:56):
I think through touch, but also your words. I know
that you say like you love me, we say that
a lot, but I think just being able to express,
like wristuff, you do find me attractive, not just when
I get my eyebrows done or something. I'm not saying
that you only do it with them, but like that
reaction that you do where you're like, dang, I like

(43:19):
onet that more.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
When she gets like her eyebrows done, her eyelashes, I
just did this exaggerated hype pretty much. I'm like, day,
that looks so good. Let me see it. Can take
a picture of this that looks good.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
And look at the expression on her face when you
do that. Yeah, right, and so that's great that all
kinds of other ways to do that. You can do
that that way, but it gets a really strong response,
and Race is saying she needs more of that and
not just eyebrows day. It can be a regular day,

(43:54):
and it can be passing by and just touching her
as you pass by and whispering something to her little
moment that can really convey that would be good to amplify.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
That's definitely something I'm going to try more.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
And I have one last question. You mentioned in your
letter that sometimes you say things that you don't mean.

Speaker 4 (44:15):
We don't call each other names, but we do attack
each other. Last night, for example, I was talking to
him about starting a couple's therapy and I had brought
up like something about entrance and the cost, and he
said something along the lines of it's going to be
X amount a month, So how long do you think
it's going to take? And I said, well, it just

(44:38):
depends on how invested we are, I guess. But when
he asked the question of well how long is this
going to take? Guy shut down. I stopped talking because.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
You heard it as we are not worth investing in.
How did you hear it?

Speaker 4 (44:54):
Yeah, like it's going to be that much, so we
can just work on it by ourselves.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
Like I don't prioritize our marriage. That's what you heard.
That's not what he said, but that's what you heard, right, Yeah, okay, right,
I don't think you were saying to Grace, I don't
prioritize us for our marriage. Can you tell Grace what
you meant when you said that?

Speaker 3 (45:15):
Well, I feel like the conversation came up about the
insurance not taking it for couple's therapy. And as I
was driving, you were giving me all these numbers about
how much it might be, and I just said, okay,
so how much would it be a month? I was
just asking for our financial information pretty much. And the
reason I was asking you is because what you do

(45:36):
for work, I feel like you'd have more information. So
I was pretty much asking, Okay, we'd be paying this
much a month, how long would you like to keep
going to this person? And when I kind of got
the negative response to it, where I was like, hey,
that's not what I meant, I feel like that's when
I got upset. And something Grace didn't mentioned is I

(45:57):
told her, you know what, it doesn't matter what the
price is. I'm willing to pay X of money just
so I could finally ask you questions in peace.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
I'm laughing because that is the core of what happens
both ways. You both interpret each other's behavior as an attack.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
The interpret questions as an attack.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Yes, you interpret questions like tell me about the text. Oh,
you're bad, right, you're cheating on me. So when you
think about how we make stories up in our heads
about what something means. We try to make meaning and
we tell a story and your story there, Grace was
he doesn't prioritize our relationship. This is a burden. He's
kind of grudgingly thinking about can we put a price

(46:41):
on our marriage, right or does he want to spend
the money on something else that's not as valuable. And
I think what he was saying is I'm trying to
protect us. Of course, I value our marriage and I'm
trying to take care of our financial picture at the
same time. So I'm trying to be responsible by figuring out, Okay,
how can we make this work? And so I need

(47:02):
information because of your profession. You might have an idea
about how long this might go on, and that can
help me budget. So let's try to think about this.
His interpretation was, I'm asking these questions for the good
of us, and you heard, oh, I'm not invested in us.

Speaker 4 (47:18):
Yeah. I do think that that happens a lot when
we argue, Finn. We'll often say like, I'm not trying
to attack you, like I'm on your team, but it
doesn't feel that way. Sometimes both like we're on completely
opposite teams.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
Well that's mutual, right, you both feel attacked in the
conversations that you have then we're going to suggest ways
for you to change some of that dynamic. And the
new thing to do would be to say, I'm beating
that a little bit as an attack. Do you mean
that this way? Or how do you mean that? And
you need to be much slower in how you have

(47:55):
these discussions because you say one short thing and another
short thing, and then the ten assumptions in between those things,
and a lot of them are wrong. You really have
to put assumptions aside, slow it down and go, wait,
I was feeding that that might be wrong. I just
want to check. So the slowing down, the rushing forward
based on faulty assumptions, which you each have plenty of

(48:18):
as we've seen today, will be very helpful.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
So, Grace and Finn, we have some advice for you,
and we were thinking about how you met so young,
and how we all, no matter what age we meet,
bring things from our childhoods into our current relationships. And
what we would like you to do is to each
write down one thing that you think you bring in.

(48:50):
So Grace, what do you bring in? Finn? What do
you bring in that sometimes gets in the way of
being present in the moment. For example, Grace, you mentioned
that you have a history in your family of weight
being handled a certain way. So what part of that
gets in the way of these conversations with Finn and
Finn you probably have something, maybe you felt accused, but

(49:14):
whatever it was that you think sometimes gets conflated with
what's happening in the present in this relationship. Now, So
that's the first task. We always say, if it's hysterical,
it's historical, and that means that if you're having a
really big reaction to something, part of it is about
what's happening in the moment, but part of it is
also probably about what has happened in the past that

(49:36):
is getting layered onto the conversation in the present.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
Okay, do you want us to share it with each other?

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Yes, reflect on it separately, write it down, and then
share it with each other.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Another task would like you to do once a day
each of you initiate a flirtation. It can be very mild,
it can be acute text. It can be you paused
by and you caress the other person. It can be
you say something complimentary, or you leave a voicemail, you

(50:08):
left a note about AI miss your cute face. Something
that's flirty so it's romantic slash sexual, but one little
flirt that each give to one another once a day
because that will remind you of your romantic connection.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
I think you guys are much more excited about this
task than the first one. You guys are smiling so
much right now.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
I thought that was easier.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
And that's something that we know. Grace is really craving
and I'll bet you too.

Speaker 3 (50:36):
Fit.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
It's nice to hear that your partner really desires you
as thinking about you, and they bring that sense of
fun back to the relationship, and so when you are
having more difficult conversations, you have that glue of the
fun and the enjoyment as well.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
The next thing is we know that sometimes your arguments
can escalate and go from zero to sixty very very quickly,
and especially on certain topics. We'd like you to both
recognize that the minute the escalation is happening, and you
know when it's happening because faces are getting read or
tones might get louder, emphasis might be stronger. The minute

(51:14):
that's happening, it means you're not understanding the other person,
you're getting defensive, you're getting combative, you've stopped listening and
trying to understand the other person, and you have a
history of making a lot of assumptions, some of which
might not be true. So every time one of you
catches both of you catch an escalation happening, you get

(51:35):
to come up with a ceasefire. And the instruction is
you go into curiosity mode, because at that point you've
stopped understanding the other person. So now that's the actual goal.
You pause whatever the argument is about and say, phinn,
I'm getting annoyed, I'm getting frustrated, but I'm putting that aside.
I really want to understand exactly what you think and

(51:58):
how you feel about it, and let's spend a little
bit of time on that, and then we can spend
time on you understanding me. But let's make sure we
really understand one another rather than making assumptions and now
giving on assumptions that are faulty in the first place.
It is very difficult to stop mid argument, but usually
be fine if one of you can take the initative
at some point and say the escalation time, curiosity time,

(52:21):
whatever the phrase that you would use that suits you,
and come up with the phrase that is the signal.
This is a way to really train yourselves to get
curious rather than get angry.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
And in both of your lines of work, as a
police officer, you know all about de escalation and how
to handle that. And as a therapist grace when things
start to escalate, you know how to help people de escalate.
So come up with something that feels familiar to both
of you in terms of how can we de escalate
with each other? What is the word? The action that

(52:55):
we know is just our shorthand. And now we're going
to get really curious because clearly we're not understanding each
other right now, and you might even need as part
of the de escalation. We're going to take a fifteen
minute break.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
And once you find the word that will get you
to stop what you're doing. Shake hands on the fact
that when somebody uses that word, it's like a timeout
you go to abide, So just be very clear that
you're agreeing to abide by that timeout.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
We find that if words are getting really loud and
people can't hear each other, sometimes the signal that they
have with each other is one person will just start dancing,
one person does a funny move for something with their body,
and then it's like, oh, whoa wait, Okay, got it,
and the other person has to mimic it, and you
just okay, we're on the same page. Now, this is
our de escalation, and that means this is our ceasefire

(53:42):
right now, and the other person does it in kind.
Maybe we need a little break to de escalate ourselves.
But we're going to come back to it and get curious.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
And we're going to recommend a book about couple's communication,
and we'd like you to this week read the chapter,
listen to the chapter together, and just discuss what you
took away from it how you can implement anything there
in your own lives. The book is called Seven Principles
for Making a Marriage Work, and it's by John Gottman.

(54:09):
You're smiling, Grace, you're familiar.

Speaker 4 (54:11):
Yeah, I have it on my Amazon curve, but I
haven't ordered it.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
Well, then it's going to be very easy to order.
We want you to each listen to the chapter or
each read and then discuss this week, because as you
will see, there there are four signs of poor communication.
They're called them the four horsemen of the apocalypse. All
couples have them, but when they are really the main
pattern of the communication, they're very problematic and they include criticism, contempt, stonewalling,

(54:42):
and defensiveness. And again it's about the dosage and the frequency,
but we want you to be aware so that you
can avoid them.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
And the next thing is we love the fact that
when you got into the closet together you were able
to have this really calm, open, vulnerable conversation with each other.
You could truly hear each other. It felt safe to
both of you. So we would like you to build
in to your relationship a once a week, very quick

(55:13):
relationship check in in the closet. Go in the closet
once a week, and make this like a date. It's
not going to feel burdensome because it could be five minutes.
And it's really that curiosity exercise. Tell me about you,
tell me about you, and it's just to really get
to know what's going on inside for each other, and

(55:37):
it's a place that you're associating with. We feel safe
to be open here. We don't escalate in here. We
know that we can go into curiosity mode in here,
and it's good for us to check in because sometimes
when we don't check in, things build up and then
we're already primed to have an argument because we're already upset.

(56:01):
We want you to talk about it before you get upset.
So the closet is a very sacred place. We do
not escalate in the closet.

Speaker 4 (56:08):
Okay, sounds good.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Okay. If you do get into an argument this week,
or you do have a disagreement this week, we would
like you to do the stop whatever that signal is
for you. We want you to go into the curiosity,
and then we want you to argue the other person's perspective.
And by argue, we don't mean get loud. We mean

(56:30):
we want you to articulate. If you are the other person,
tell your version of it from that person's perspective. You
don't have to agree with their perspective at all. It's
just now I really understand why they feel this way,
I understand why this is a big deal to that,
and then you can kind of come to Okay, now
what do we do now that we both really feel

(56:52):
that we understand the other person.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
It's very powerful to hear the other person argue your
perspective because then it makes you feel like, Okay, she
does get it. Ok he does get it, because he's
doing a good job about giving my side.

Speaker 4 (57:02):
I think that sounds pretty like doable and good.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
It sounds good. I really like the exercise, even though
it sounds like it'll be a little tough. I like
the one where we have to argue the other person's
point of view. I was like, Wow, that's I've never
thought about doing something like that. It seems interesting. So
I'm looking forward to trying that exercise out.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
Yeah, thank you so much for having Uslie really appreciate it.
I feel like you guys are really helpful and being
able to just get to I guess, the root of things,
and so I really appreciate you taking the time and
having us on here.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
You know, one of the things our listeners can't see
is how a couple, when they're sitting next to each
other are interacting during the session. And this couple was
so warm, and they were looking at each other, and
they were smiting at each other, they were touching each
other the entire time they had contact between them. It
was really an important facet that we certainly register very

(58:03):
much as therapists, and it makes us feel like this
is a couple that really cares about each other. And
that's always great to see because that's a strong foundation
to build in.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Yeah, I think it was clear how much love there
is between the two of them. They clearly care a
lot about each other, and they have a real enjoyment
of each other that they could smile, they could laugh
when Grace would start to tear up or cry. He
was very present. You know, when we think about couples

(58:33):
who have communication difficulties, but they also don't have the
glue that this couple has, there's another hurdle, and they
don't have that hurdle. I do really think that the
fact that they got together young it gave them one advantage,
which is that they on one hand, kind of grew
up together. On the other hand, they're still using communication

(58:54):
patterns and they still have childhood histories getting in the
way of adult communication. But I think that the tools
that we gave them are things that they can use
every single day and find that eventually, when they put
these into practice in a consistent way, that it's really
going to change the way they interact with each other

(59:15):
on a regular basis and they won't have those kinds
of escalations.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
And that's the thing that I think is also very encouraging.
They both seem so open to these tools and to
experiment with these things and even a little excited about it.
So that's very promising.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
You're listening to dear therapists. We'll be back after a
short break. So, guy, we heard back from Grayson Finn
and I'm excited to hear how their week went.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
Hi Laurie, Hi Guy, this is Grayson Finn. We were
just calling you to give you an update on the
tasks that you asked us to do, starting with the
cute text flirting. That was really fun. I feel like
receiving Finn's messages really made me feel loved and like
he was thinking about me, and just also being able

(01:00:16):
to do that with him too. I think really bridged
and furthered a connection between the two of us.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Yeah, same thing. Grace actually left a posted note on
the mirror one day that I saw when I woke up,
and I feel like that really meant a lot, even
though something really minor, made me feel a lot more
connected to her, And it's crazy how something so small
impacted my day. So I feel like that really helped.

Speaker 4 (01:00:42):
And then we were able to establish kind of like
we didn't argue this past week, which was kind of
really nice. There was a little bit of a we
were going to argue, but it ended up not being
an argument. It was something that again was filled with assumptions,
but we kind of talked about it a little bit.
We did establish that we were going to try to

(01:01:04):
hug when we were arguing, and Finn even said he
was going to break out in a dance move, so
I'm looking forward to seeing that. And we were able
to read the chapter of seven Principles of Making a
Marriage Work. It was really interesting to kind of reflect
on the things that I did and brought into the relationship,
and hearing Finn's perspective was helpful.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
The same thing on reading the book, I was able
to see some of the stuff that I bring into
the relationship that maybe I never realized and saw I
write this chapter. So I feel like reading this chapter
really did help out a lot. And the homework the
all assign actually, I feel like just really helped us out.
And we didn't argue.

Speaker 4 (01:01:45):
This week, And I think a lot of the reason
why we didn't argue, which me and Finn talked about,
was being able to be more connected and feel more
like friends almost even though we were never not friends,
but just being able to hear some vulnerabilities from Finn
and vice versa. We did go into the closet. We
actually sat there for quite a while, more than five minutes,

(01:02:06):
and we talked about some things about a relationship but
also some things that we need from each other, which
was really nice. And it was there. Yeah, and it
was fun to see Finn so excited to do the homework.
He like was actually like looking forward to it, and
it was really nice to see that. And we were

(01:02:28):
able to practice articulating the other person's perspective based off
of a previous argument, not based off of a current one,
since we didn't get into one, but we were able
to kind of see each other's sides and argue those points.
More than anything, we really want to thank you laur
and Guy because we feel like you guys did a
phenomenal job at being able to help us connect more

(01:02:50):
and help us communicate better.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
Yeah, I appreciate you guys so much. Thank you for
listening to us, thanks for giving us the opportunity to
come onto the podcast, and once again, just I feel
like it definitely improved our relationship with feeling more connected.
So again, thank you' all very much.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
You know, Finn is really getting curious about this relationship
now and getting curious about how things work, and she
is too. And when I hear that they had a
conversation about the fact that they didn't really have an
argument and what that's about, that's great. That's a couple
who are starting to be self reflective, looking at what
they're doing, how they're communicating, and getting curious about it.

(01:03:32):
It is the best ingredient for good communication and for
working on things.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
And that's so important. So we're not saying to them,
don't argue. We're saying, when you have a disagreement, can
you use the tools that we gave you curiosity looking
at the four horsemen from the Gotman book, what are
the assumptions? Can you articulate the other person's perspective? Can
you go into that space, which for them was the closet.

(01:03:58):
It was a nice safe place for them to go.
And can you then be more vulnerable in that space
of trust where you know it's not going to escalate?
And I love also that they decided they're going to hug.
That's going to be their signal to each other that
they're escalating, and that Finn might break out into a
dance move I think that's a brilliant strategy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
I love it too. Finn is the police officer, Grace
is a therapist. She's the one that's more emotional. But
as we always say, there's a difference between what we
express in terms of what we're feeling and what we're
actually feeling, and both of them had really similar emotional
responses to the assignment. Both of them felt really buoyed

(01:04:39):
by the flirtation. Finn really felt touched by the post
it on the mirror. They were both excited to read
the book and to discuss it. They both felt much
more connected to one another and felt that that was
important because they needed that. I think their emotional experience
under the hood, away from what they actually projected the
outside world, is really similar in that way, and which

(01:05:01):
is great because they're both emotional, they're both of the
capacity for it, and they both need that connection.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
I love guy what you say about connection, because when
people are arguing, they're completely disconnected. They're not connecting in
any way, shape or form. They're trying to prove their point.
They feel unheard, they feel misunderstood, and everything that they
did this week made them feel further connected. It built
up the trust and that allows the space for curiosity,

(01:05:28):
which is also why Grayson Finn, if you're listening, we'd
like you to still do that first task that we
gave you, which was to tell each other one thing
from your history that you bring into this relationship. But
I do think guy, that they made good steps in
starting to build trust and closeness and that that allows
the space to hear each other, and even the flirting exercise,
it just makes them feel more valued and held by

(01:05:51):
the other person, and that's the foundation that we all
need to feel understood in a relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Next week, a woman whose parents are pressuring her to
get married and have a baby wonders how to set
boundaries with her family.

Speaker 4 (01:06:08):
When I was twenty three, he would say, oh, no,
she doesn't need to get married yet. She's so young,
she has time. And then you know, in a couple
of years after that's all, you're too old.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
You don't have time.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
free so you don't miss any episodes, and please help
support your therapists by telling your friends about it and
leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help
people to find the show.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at Lauriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive
producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,
additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our
intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our

(01:06:52):
podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see
you at our next session. The Therapist is a production
of iHeart Radio, Fish Food, h