August 20, 2024 • 55 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. In Haley's mind, her sister Jill has always been the "perfect" one. When Jill visits their aging parents, she's like Mary Poppins, bringing sunshine and rainbows and even labeling their antiques. Haley is tired of never measuring up to Jill, but we help her to see that her problem is different from what she believes it to be—and that it's actually her greatest strength.
If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at LoriAndGuy@iHeartMedia.com.
Follow us both online:
LoriGottlieb.com and on Twitter @LoriGottlieb1 and Instagram @lorigottlieb_author
GuyWinch.com and on Twitter @GuyWinch and Instagram @Guy Winch
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy column for Ted. And this is Deatherapists. This week,
a woman struggles with resentment toward her sister, who always
(00:23):
seems like the perfect sibling to their parents. Sometimes I think, oh,
I should be better at this. I should ask them
more questions, because that's what Jill does when she's there.
She writes questions for the night and has people discuss
memories and labels, the antiques and oh my goodness, she
is Mary Poppins. Yeah, and it's like, all, I can't
(00:44):
compete with that. I don't know how to do that.
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
THEO Therapists is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not to substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
(01:06):
health professional, or uther qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition, By submitting a letter,
you are agreeing to let ihop media use it in
potter and full, and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hi Laurie, how are you. What do
we have today? Hey guy? Well, today we have a
letter about conflict between siblings. Oh that's always interesting because
(01:30):
that can go in many ways. Yes, so let me
go ahead and read you the letter. Dear therapists. I'm
having an issue with my sister Jill over the care
of our parents. I'm feeling resentful that she flies in
for week long visits, makes a big splash, then leaves
me to the never ending slog. When my sister comes
(01:50):
to town, she busies herself cleaning their house, archiving family history,
and in general being Mary Poppins, a regular ray of
sunshine and rainbows while she's here, or my parents are
happy and bright gone, or my mother's weepiness and my
father's grumpiness. It's nice that she's here to share the load,
but she will soon fly home, phone every other day
and return to her life far away, while I will
(02:12):
continue to carry the load up close. I've been grumbling
for months about needing help, but now I'm resentful of
the sunshine and rainbows, while I would like to escape
while she's here, hand over the rains and disappear. My
sister needs me to make the two five hour round
trips to the airport, so I'm bookended by needing to
be present. Plus my life continues unabated. My husband says,
(02:33):
I'm like the starting pitcher who carries the game, while
my sister's the closer who has a particular strength cleaning
in rainbows. The analogy helps, but it makes me wonder
how many starting pitchers sit in the dugout seething while
the closer gets the credit for winning the game, silently steaming.
I played eight innings and set this guy up for victory.
I'd love whatever advice you have for redirecting my resentment
(02:55):
into something more useful. Thanks for your time and attention, Hayley.
I'd say lovely request for advice there at the end,
because she's not saying i'd like your help and not
feeling resentful. She's saying, I'd like to redirect it into
something useful that sounds good to me, just as a
way to frame things. Resentment is interesting because it's really
(03:17):
about a feeling of unfairness. This balance that you're putting
out something and not getting enough back, or someone else
is getting more than you. There's real math in people's heads,
whether they're aware of it or not. When they're resentful,
there's accounting going on in their heads. Yeah, And I
wonder whether this counting, or this feeling of unbalanced is
(03:39):
just specific to this situation, or whether that's something that
has gone on between the sisters before when they were
growing up. The other interesting thing about the resentment here
is if she's resentful towards her sister, then it's because
the response the parents are giving her sister versus her.
And in that case, why is not resentful towards the parents?
(04:02):
Now there is the sister actually doing something to engender
the resentment other than just being herself. Right, I think
we need to explore the resentment more with her, So
let's go talk with her. Yes, you're listening to Dear
Therapist from my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a
(04:22):
quick break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and
this is Dear Therapists. Hi Hailey, Hello, thank you for
coming on the show. Thank you so much for choosing
(04:44):
my letter. I am such a fan of both of you.
I feel like I won the lottery. I'm very honored.
Thank you. We hope we can help you today. So hey,
you use the word slog. The slog with your parents,
what are you doing for them? And how much of
us log is it for you? The slog is that
they live an hour south of me by their own choice,
(05:08):
and both of my sisters live several states away. They're
both in their mid eighties. So when this quarantine hit
and the pandemic, I became the person to deliver groceries
for them, Like my husband does the grocery shopping, and
he's very good about that, but to keep them safe,
(05:30):
he does not go and visit, and I just go.
So it's just the three of us, and it has
been since March, and I go every week, sometimes twice
a week, and I often spend the night, and I
cooked dinner and I take desserts and just try to
be entertaining and keep their spirits up and keep them
(05:52):
fed and entertained. Was this an issue before COVID in
terms of feeling like you were the only person responsible
for being there for your parents, Yes, I do feel
that way. I'm always concerned about how my mother is
(06:13):
entertained and what they're doing. So it was an issue
before this, but I would only see them about every
other week, and that would be at a get together
or a party. None of this shopping, none of this
cooking that type of thing. Were you feeling this kind
(06:34):
of resentment when the situation was more normal and you
didn't have the shopping and the cooking involved. Not really,
Maybe a little bit when COVID started, and obviously when
it did, knowing you how long able to go on.
But since then have there been any conversations with you
and your two sisters about Hey, guys, look it's COVID
(06:55):
there in the really high risk group. I know you
live far away, but can we make a plan in
which we somehow ship the responsibilities. Is that conversation, a
three way conversation ever had? No it? Never did. They
took it upon themselves to initiate. I guess a foam
(07:16):
tree where one calls my mom one night and the
other one the next. But the three of us never
did have that conversation. Can you tell us a little
bit about what your relationship is like with both of
your sisters? You mentioned Jill in the letter. Can you
tell us the birth order, and what your relationship has
(07:37):
been like growing up, and what it's like as adults. Okay,
my oldest sister is Eve, and Jill is the middle,
and I'm the youngest. I think we all get along
in different ways. Eve is sort of politically different than
me and Jill. We don't have hard conversation. I guess
(08:00):
we just get along. I suppose that they're pretty good relationships.
Does Eve participate in this rotation in any way? Because
you mentioned joke flying in and doing the Mary Poppins thing.
What about Eve? No, she stays at home. It sounds
like you get along, but you're not necessarily super close.
Where you claimmates as kids, were your friends as kids
(08:22):
or were you just very different from one another? I
was very different from them, so they got along much
better and they actually ended up in the same grade.
And I was two years younger in school and was
always the black sheep. To be honest with you, they
would tell on me. I would get in trouble and
(08:44):
sort of the scapegoat for things that were going wrong
in the family. Can you give us an example of that.
I think an example would be that I think I
see my father more clearly for who he is, and
neither one of them sees any faults in him. So
I would be the one sort of saying the emperor
(09:04):
has no clothes, and they would be the people saying, no,
he's perfect, and he might be a perfect man, but
he wasn't a perfect father for me because I'm artistic
and he was military. So there was always that conflict.
So I stood outside of the four of them quite
a bit for that way of thinking. It was punished
for it. So you were feeling left out in your family.
(09:28):
It sounds like from pretty early on when you say
I was outside of the four of them, it wasn't
just your two sisters then who was seeing eye to eye,
But it sounds you're saying the four of them were,
and I was the one that felt left out in
a way, right right. It was always my fault when
things didn't work. My mother was always very angry with
(09:50):
me for not getting along with my dad. What did
she want you to do to get along better with
your dad? That's a good question. Just think he was
a nice guy, see him for his positive characteristics. Well, yeah,
if he's military, you just needed to match information as
(10:13):
it were with your sisters. That then you were not
marching information with your family, perhaps not just your sisters. Yeah,
So what did that feel like growing up? Because that's
quite stark what you're describing. It's not just oh, yes,
I had two older sisters and they would sometimes going
up on me. It was this feeling like I'm really
different from the entire family. There's something that I'm seeing
(10:35):
that I'm feeling that's different. What was that like for
you growing up with that feeling? It was probably very lonely,
But in a way I didn't mind being alone because
I didn't want to be with them. It was better.
It was better to be alone. You know, sometimes when
(11:00):
people are in your situation, On the one hand, they
feel like it's better to be alone because you're glad
to have the freedom to feel how you feel, to
think how you think, you sound like you were more
artistic and creative, to be able to acknowledge that side
of yourself. But sometimes there's also, at the same time
(11:20):
another part that feels almost envious of them because they're
not seeing what you're seeing, they're not thinking more deeply,
and so it just feels easier for them because they
all just get along and it just seems so easy,
and so sometimes it's like, I'm glad that I see
the world in this way, but wouldn't it be easier
(11:42):
if I didn't? Definitely, that was definitely there. The letter
you wrote to us is about resentment, and it's about
resentment for the current very specific situation, but it sounds
like they might have been cause for you to feel
resentment long ago as well, for being marginalized or fore
feeling a part for your sisters giving you a hard time.
(12:07):
Do you recall feeling resentment as a child or as
an adolescent. I mostly resented my mother forcing me to
get along with my dad when he wasn't nice to me.
They didn't see that, but he wasn't and he was
(12:28):
good about doing it when nobody else was around. So
I resented that nobody took my side. Can you give
us an example of the kind of thing he would
do when no one was around to you. It was
never physical. He would just speak very sternly to me,
yell at me when I wasn't getting the point. Up
(12:49):
into my twenties, we would be alone in the house
and he would just come and say, Tommy, you know,
very in your face, in my face, kind of like
a drill sergeant. And he would not do that to
your sisters. No, no, no, no, he didn't have a
reason to do it to them. They got along with him,
(13:11):
and you know when he said jump, they said how high?
And when he said jump, I said why. He's not
good at giving reasons. He just wants you to do it.
It's interesting that your letter talks a lot about your sister,
and right now you're talking about your resentment towards your mother,
and I wonder if there was also a resentment towards
(13:31):
your sisters for blaming you for things. They got me
in trouble. Like one time when I was a teenager,
I snuck out of the house and it was New
Year's Eve, I think, and I was coming back in
and they noticed and they locked the door, and instead
of what I thought a good sister would do, which
would be to help me get inside, they woke up
(13:54):
my dad and they got me in trouble. So that
was nice. It's almost like they got pleasure from seeing
you get in trouble. What it does is it solidifies
the family dynamic. It solidifies your position as the outsider. There.
You're literally the outsider. You were locked out of the house.
(14:15):
That's very true. The thing that's interesting about resentment is
that it's truly about this feeling of a lack of fairness,
that you're not getting something that you deserve, or someone's
getting more than you, and when they don't deserve getting
more than you. And when you're describing your childhood with
(14:37):
your parents and your sisters, it sounds like there's this
thread of a lack of fairness that's going on because
they all seem to get along. And it's not just
that they got along, but they seem to see eye
to eye and kind of agree with each other and
have the same philosophy and the same approach and the
same understanding of what one should do, and so it
(14:59):
was almost easy for them to get along. They didn't
really have to bend themselves into a pretzel. And you
not only didn't fit in, but you also didn't want
to bend yourself into a pretzel, so you stood out
even more. And that's why I was asking about whether
you've had this feeling of unfairness for a really long
time in your family. Well, it's funny because I never
(15:24):
thought that that was an issue of mine until I
got married and I was dating my husband, and he said, wow,
so everything's got to be fair. And I realized, then,
how often I say that's not fair? Why did she
get to do that? That's not fair? So it probably
has been there. I don't remember feeling it as a kid,
(15:47):
but he definitely brought it to my attention. When you
were younger and you felt that things weren't fair, who
did you go to to talk about that? It sounds
like you probably didn't go to your father. Did you
go to your mother? I might have, but she was
very invested in having him be right, so I don't
(16:13):
think she ever agreed with me and said you're right,
that's not fair. It was just more of a well
that's what he said. Was there ever a time when
there was something that your mother did that you felt
was not fair? So it wasn't about your father, Well,
it was related to him. Like I got a ticket
once and they mailed it to the house and she
(16:34):
opened it up and read it and said what did
you get this ticket for? And I said why did
you read my mail? And she said, well, the envelope
wasn't sealed. So I said, well, don't tell dad, and
she said, oh, I have to tell your father. I
tell your father everything. And I thought that's not fair,
like A, you read my letter and B you're telling him.
(16:55):
And see I was an adult. I think I was
in my twenties, and it wasn't fair when you said
to her, you know, please don't tell him, and she said,
I have to tell him. What did you do at
that point? What did those conversations look like? Do you
just back down or do you actually Oh? I probably
got pretty mad, but she was equally firm. And this
(17:19):
was marriage, and this is what married people do. They
don't have secrets from each other, and she couldn't keep
this secret from him, so she had to tell him.
You know, I think I realize why you're feeling so
resentful about the current situation because you have no allies
that you can go to. In other words, you can't
(17:40):
express it to your mom, or to your dad, or
to your sisters, because that will just be you drawing
a line between you and them again, because they all
seem fine with the arrangement. You're the one that doesn't. Again,
you're the one that doesn't fit in. And so is
it that's something that's going on that the resentment, the
frustration is not just about the unfairness of the current
(18:03):
situation and the heavy load that's on your shoulders. You
would think, given the relationship and how close your sisters
were to your parents and how much they think like
them even today, they would be the ones carrying that load.
But because of the geography, it falls on you. And
yet if you complained about it or said something, then
they might close ranks again and be like, nope, that's
you being different. I think that's very true. That's a
(18:28):
very good point, because I have felt very alone in this,
and when I would ask my husband back in March,
I would say, oh, please come with me, just please
come and have dinner with us. It's just so hard
with just the three of us, it's just so hard
to have the conversation twice a week. And he would say, well,
I can't a grocery shop. I'm keeping them healthy, I'm
(18:49):
keeping them safe. And so I couldn't even talk to
him about it. Even though he couldn't come with, you
feel like he's an ally in the sense of understanding
how you feel about the situation and the added layer
of perceived unfairness. It seems like often when you were
(19:12):
growing up, people pointed out the things you did wrong,
and they didn't protect you, they didn't have your back
when things went wrong like New Year's Eve or like
getting a ticket, and some your left with being the
person who's in the trenches, who's doing the daily slog.
(19:33):
And I wonder if your husband understands that aspect of it.
Do you feel like you have some emotional support from him,
or does he also feel like, well, that's just how
it is and you just have to deal with it.
He's probably getting a better idea of it. I think
he has trouble relating to my situation because he didn't
(19:56):
grow up with his dad, so whenever I complain about
my dad, he thinks, well, at least you had one.
But I was talking to him more about it the
other night because he did come to dinner with me finally,
and I got the chance to tell him more about
how it had been for me when I was young
(20:18):
with my dad yelling at me, and I think he
heard it for the first time and didn't kind of
defend it and say that I was lucky to have
a dad in the house. Yeah, because it almost repeats
the pattern that was going on in your house when
you go to your husband for support, and he says, well,
you know, you don't have it that bad. Yeah, it
(20:41):
was not helpful because I wouldn't wish it on anybody,
but it wasn't very understanding on his part. But I
think we're getting past that. Do your parents express appreciation
for the incredible efforts that you're putting forth to really
prove right for them, to keep them safe? They do,
(21:02):
They do. My mother is very appreciative, and she thanks
me and sends me emails and sends me notes, and
my dad says thank you, And they are appreciative, and
it's really great that they're appreciative. That helps a lot.
But I think that there's something else that you still
(21:24):
want from them, which is an acknowledgement of your goodness.
And I see you nodding there, right. You weren't really
seen and appreciated for who you are when you are
growing up, and so what they're appreciating right now is
what you're doing for them, which again is good. But
(21:46):
I think that there's still a yearning for you to
have them appreciate who you are as a person, your creativity,
how artistic you are, your ways of being an independent person,
in being able to think for yourself, even devotion and loyalty, right,
(22:09):
her generosity, her devotion, her loyalty, all of that, but
to appreciate who you are as a person, your essence.
And so when your sister comes in and you said,
like Mary Poppins, and what they see is not just
everything she's doing that weak, but I think that you
have a sense they see something else in her that
(22:31):
they haven't really looked hard enough to see in you.
They really like her essence because it mirrors their own.
I think you're fighting here not just for recognition of
what you're doing for them now, but recognition of your personhood. Haley.
(22:52):
I see you nodding a lot, and I guess I'm
wondering when you're there, when you're talking to them, are
you telling them about your life? Are they asking questions
about what's going on with you? Are they getting to
know you the adult you, and what your life is
about and what you are about? Other opportunities for that
(23:12):
when you spend time there, there are I feel like
I talked too much about myself, though you know it's
not that interesting. Day to day. I'm a writer. I
sit in this room and sometimes I think, oh, I
should be better at this I should ask them more questions,
because that's what Jill does when she's there. She writes
(23:36):
questions for the night and has people discuss memories and labels,
the antiques and oh my gonness, she is Mary Puppins. Yeah,
I can't compete with that. I don't know how to
do that. Do they ask you at all about what
you're writing? Do they show an interest in your writing?
My mom does more than my dad, to the point
(23:59):
that I kind of try not to talk to her
about it because she's always begging me to read it
and she gets really weepy because I don't let her
read my work anymore. It's a little bit of a
touchy subject. And I think they didn't like the work
I did when I was in graduate school because they
were some pretty raw poems about my life and they
(24:24):
didn't really care for that. So the whole thing, whenever
I start talking about poems, they look like deers in
the headlights, like, oh God, please don't talk about your poems.
They're painful. That is something I could talk about. I
can talk forever about writing, but that's not their favorite subject.
But it sounds like you're the truth speaker in the family, right, Like,
(24:46):
you're the one that speaks the truth and everyone else
just kind of folds Anne and doesn't address things. Right,
you're the one that speaks about what's actually going on. Right,
You're exactly right. And that's been my role my whole life.
And I had a counselor once and she said to me,
but you need to realize nobody likes the person who
tells the truth. That's not a way to be popular.
(25:09):
So I was like, wow, okay, I'm not popular. Well
yet another person who wasn't seeing it your way. No,
and this one was your counselor. That's unfortunate. There's something
very liberating about being the truth teller, and it's hard
to see when you're on the outside and you felt
like an outsider for so long. But what you're not
(25:33):
seeing are their struggles, because if the truth is so
threatening to them, if the truth feels so painful to them,
there's a struggle going on there. It just looks very
different from the way yours is expressed. You mean, it's
a struggle for them to keep the truth hidden. So
(25:54):
you think they know it, You think they don't need
me to say it, like they already know it's not
about keeping the truth. It's about not even asking questions
to uncover it a lot of the time. Right, So
it's not that they're sitting there thinking, oh, I agree
with her totally, but I don't want to admit it.
They're not doing that exploration. They're not asking those questions
(26:15):
that they would have to answer with truths. And that's
because any time they might go there just kind of
tiptoe over there in their minds, they immediately retreat. And
you are saying, wait a minute, I'm not just tiptoeing
over there. I'm running full force over there. Yeah, I'm
going to stop my way over there and stop my
(26:35):
way back and tell you what I found out when
I was over there, and you said it in your letter.
Jill comes in with rainbows and sunshine and sunshine and
rainbows and unicorns and who knows what, And that's so
much more repeating to them, Yes, let's let's have the
sunshine and the rainbows, not this truth thing that you,
(26:56):
Haley keep peddling. Albeit now that I'm saying that, the
fact that you'll's curious to see the writing when she
knows that you're the truth teller, when she's had the
experience of reading your poems and going like yikes. That
means there's a part of her that does want to know,
even if it's to be able to mount a very
strong defense against what you're saying. But there's a part
of her that's curious. She might be the only one. Yeah,
(27:19):
you're probably right, but there have been enough conversations about
I can't believe you see me that way. It's like
I can't be your psychiatrist too, you know, I can't
help you come to peace with how I feel. It
sounds like she feels blamed as opposed to being curious
(27:41):
about your experience. Yeah, I would agree, and that makes
it hard for her to hear it. And I wonder
if your sisters feel the same way. What is their
relationship to the things that you've written. They haven't read
anything in a long time. It's like being a teenager
in the house. I go in my room and that's
(28:02):
kind of where I am in my writing stays, which
isn't a good place to be as a writer, because
I'm torn about getting it out into the world. I
think this whole thing holds me back in that way,
because then we'll have to explain defend directed toward you. Yep,
yep that you said they hadn't seen your writing in
(28:26):
a long time, meaning they used to read your writing. Yeah.
I used to publish little chat books when I was
in graduate school. The poems I had written each semester
I would print out and make covers for and I
would sell them at these readings I did and give
them to my family. So what did'd your sister say
about the poems? Usually never much. My one sister, Eve
(28:50):
was really into it, and she always says, I can't
wait till you publish a book. I can't wait to
read it. And I think Jill just didn't know what
to say. What was it like for Eve to be
interested in your writing? It was good, It was nice.
She kept all my chap books. It was an interesting
(29:13):
place for us to meet on that level. Did you
talk at all about the content of the poems? It
sounds like they were about your family and you said,
she's the one you politically disagree with the most. Is
she the person that you disagree the most with about
what the reality is in your family? Did she find
(29:35):
anything in there and say, oh, yeah, I felt that
way too, or I can see how you saw that. No,
never any of that. We never talked about the issues.
What we do align on is how tiresome Jill is sometimes,
how even I both get tired of this sort of
(29:56):
Mary Poppins aspect, and we can roll our eyes about
that together. She complains to me about Jill's kids, and
Jill complains to me about Eve's kids, and so that's
kind of where we meet on this level. Had nothing
to do with my writing where is Eve? In terms
(30:17):
of taking care of your parents? Jill comes in and
does the Mary Poppins thing, and you there on the
daily grind, Where's Eve? Eve stays at home. Her family
isn't quarantining very much. She can't come visit, or she won't.
My mom doesn't enjoy her as much as she enjoys
(30:38):
Jill because they're politically different too. And Eve has a
bit of a hot temper. She's a little a little
more difficult to be around, a little angry. She's a
little bit of an angry person. So I don't think
Mom misses her not coming. I'm sure she misses her,
(31:01):
that's a terrible thing to say, but she stays where
she is. So the resentment you feel there are these
four people in your family, to whom do you feel
most resentful, to whom least? I'm okay at the resentment pie.
And let's see who gets what portions. That's a really
(31:21):
good question. I think I give fifty percent to my parents,
because you separate your parents, Okay, I would give my dad.
I'm just gonna give it all equally. Everybody gets twenty
five percent of the pie. Is that a math phobia
(31:43):
or is that how you really feel? It's because I'm
not good at math. But it's also then just rank them.
Can you rank it from most to least? Where the
resentment is the most and where the resentment is the least.
I think I resent my dad the most, but he
is honestly tied with my mom. Because they had this
(32:05):
opportunity to live closer to where I live, on more
of a family compound. And when they were making this choice,
I said to them, and this was ten years ago,
I said, I really think you should move on that
family compound. It'll just be better for you. It'll be
closer to people that you know. And they refused, and
(32:28):
so they moved to this other house and now they
live an hour away. And I sit here thinking I'm
the one who knew you should have moved to this place,
and now I'm the one that's got to drive two
hours every time to this place you moved to that
I didn't think you should move to in the first place.
So that's a lot of my resentment about all of this.
(32:51):
And when I told my husband that the first time,
he said, you know what, I worry about you resenting
something that you can't change. So I just kind of
shut up about that and thought, okay, well, I'll resent
that quietly. Then it sounds like it's so hard for
(33:11):
you to talk about your resentment because every time you
talk about it, you get shut down. Even with your husband,
he's not trying to shut you down, but he's not
making space for it either. I agree, I want to
go back because we didn't finish on that ranking scale.
(33:32):
It was hard for you to say, I'm resentful that
they didn't consider me in the move, and now I'm
bearing the burden of that. Yeah. Yeah, And so you
put them first in the ranking? Where do Eve and
Jill fall? Who falls next in terms of your resentment?
Probably because she doesn't really seem to be doing anything,
(33:55):
like she sent me some bottles of wine at the
very beginning, like here, you're doing a job, which I
really appreciated. But that was like April. So now I
think she calls my mom. I think she feels like
she's doing her part that way, but it's it's not
a lot. So Jill is the person that you're least
(34:16):
resentful of in your family. But your whole letter was
about Jill. Yeah, I know that's very true. And I
think it was because she was here and I could
see it firsthand, like how bright my mom was and
how bubbly and how excited they were, and I thought, wow,
I come here and it's like, hey, you know, you
(34:38):
don't get the same reception. Yeah, I'm the food that
they eat every day. They're just tired of this dish
and then they got something new and exciting. But I
did see it the other day with my husband when
he came and he was talking to my dad, and
my dad just lit up and he's telling my husband
all these stories about his career, and I I try
(35:00):
to ask my dad questions like that because I'm curious,
and I just get a I don't know, I don't remember.
I just got furious because my dad was sitting on
the floor beaming up at my husband, and my husband
was asking him questions, and I was like, where's this
guy When I'm around, I ask him questions. I want
to know that stuff about his career. And I don't
(35:22):
get that. You do so much for them. You go there,
you cook, you shop, you buy, you prepare, you tell
them stories, you stay over. You do so much, and
it seems like you get so little back from them
in terms of their enthusiasm. Right. You know, your sister
Mary Poppins come into town and they're all smighty, but
when it's you, they're weepy. And your husband comes and
(35:44):
now they're all chatty, but when it's here, they're not.
I guess I'm wondering, Haiti, if part of the reason
you do so much is that you have the hope
that if you keep doing more, maybe they'll finally start
to treat you the way they've treated your sisters and
see you with the same eyes with which they see Jill.
(36:06):
I totally agree with that. I totally agree with that.
And as a matter of fact, this week, after this
dinner with my husband the other night, I thought, how
do you stop caring? You know, how do you stop
caring if your parent likes you, you know, how do
you get to that point? How do you make peace
with that? Right? But that seems so painful? Right, so
(36:28):
how do you stop? Well, maybe that's where the problem
has been, is that your solution to this has been, well,
I don't care, you said earlier. I was glad that
I was the outsider because I was the person who
saw the truth and I was talking about the both
and of that that, yes, and there's something very painful
(36:51):
about being the person on the outside, even if there
are benefits to it, and there were benefits that helped you,
you would not have survived if you just told the line.
It would have taken away every shred of your identity
to pretend to be a person that you weren't. So
the good news is you saved yourself by saying I
(37:13):
am going to be the person that I am. But
the consequence of that was that it became very lonely
and you started to wonder about how you were loved
in your family, and it's something that you still wonder.
And so I think the problem is that your solution
is how do I learn how to not feel? How
(37:36):
do I learn how to not care? To so at
odds with the essence of who you are. You're a
feeling person, you're a caring person, you're a writer. You observe,
you emote, you see the truth, you don't pretend. So
maybe we can come up with a solution for you
that doesn't involve trying not to care. That would be great,
(38:01):
because I'm not good at that. They're not caring, yes,
And we're not trying to get you to not care,
because that would be asking you to not be human. So, Henny,
we have some advice for you, and it's related to
your essential question about resentment. Great, And here's how resentment works.
(38:27):
It is an equation of what you give versus what
you get, and there's a deficit and that's what engenders resentment.
And with your parents, what your resentment is about is
that you have been putting in truly extraordinary efforts. Right
you go down there, you shop for them, you cook
for them, you spend the night, you try and talk
(38:49):
about yourself and tell them stories. And you said, I
try and entertain them. And you know, if you were
to say, like in the Gladiators, are you not entertained,
they're unfortunately, And then what's really making you resentful is
that then Jill sweeps into town and entertains the shit
out of them so easily. Even when your husband comes down,
(39:11):
your dad gets all animated, and so in order to
balance that equation, because what you're doing is not working right,
investing more and more to try and get that response
from them is not working. So therefore the only way
to lower the resentment is to address the other half
of the equation, and that is to do less. But
(39:32):
they're elderly. The cooking is important, the shopping is important.
The one piece we think you can withdraw your efforts
from and as you said in your letter, redirect them
to something more useful is the entertainment piece, because that's
the least successful piece. You can recruit both sisters to
(39:52):
do zoom evenings with them and have them watch the
grandkids and whatever it is to take over some of
the entertainment piece, but we you to redirect that piece. Great.
The thing about entertaining them is that you get hurt
every time because you aren't just trying to make sure
that they're entertained, but you're trying to have them see
(40:15):
your essence, and that's not happening. And so every time
you put your efforts there, you're setting yourself up for
disappointment and resentment. We think that you should redirect your
energies toward your husband and your adult relationship. In terms
(40:38):
of being appreciated for who you are in your family,
there was not a lot of appreciation shown for who
you are. There was a lot of don't be like that,
get in line march with the rest of us. There
wasn't a lot of, Oh, you're so interesting. Oh that's
an interesting perspective. Oh, let me look at your writing. Right,
(40:59):
There wasn't a lot of that. There wasn't a lot
of Oh, I'm so glad you're telling the truth, right,
I'm so glad you're brave. Yeah, none of that. You
weren't appreciated for your courage, for your bravery, for your perceptiveness, Nope,
for your creativity, that was not appreciated. And so what
(41:23):
we'd like you to do is to redirect that into
your adult relationship. And for the next week, we would
like you and your husband to each write down, once
a day, one thing that you truly appreciate about the
other person's essence, Okay, and then we would like you
(41:44):
to share that with the other person. Maybe it's at bedtime,
maybe it's at dinner, and we'd like you to spend
just five minutes sharing what that thing is for that
day and then telling them about it. That's so fun
because last night he just said people would kill for
your creative mind than I said. So yeah, that's his
(42:07):
first one. And at the end of the seven days,
we would like you to report back to us and
let us know first of all, how it felt to
know that you're taking good care of your parents, but
also not trying to bend over backwards to get something
(42:30):
from them that makes you feel bad every time. And
then secondly to let us know how it felt to
give and get that with your husband. Okay, so can
I ask you a question? Yes, how do I stop
(42:52):
trying to be entertaining with my parents? What does that
look like? You spend less time there? I don't know.
If you have to spend the night there, you can
do groceries and shopping and cooking for the week and
make one trip and drop things off and hello and
(43:13):
get them a hug, do some cooking, leave things in
their freezer. Freezers are great, and get that done for them,
and then you can zoom in one day during the
week instead of making a two hour drive. Hey, just
checking in. How are you guys doing. How's everything going
right right? And it's also possible, Hayley, that if they
get bored, they might say, you know, maybe we should
(43:37):
move to that place nearer you, where we can be
among other people, our age, et cetera, because we're getting
a little bored here with one another, and they might
start to notice your absence and they might start to
say to each other, wow, we really miss Haley. We
(44:01):
didn't appreciate how much we enjoy her company. And they
might even seek it out. And I think that will
feel a lot better to you to have them seek
you out because they enjoy your company and they miss it,
they notice the absence than for you to say, see me,
hear me, look at me, appreciate me. That would feel different,
(44:27):
and then in the meantime, you'd be getting that and
focusing your energies on that in the relationship that you
have as an adult with your husband. That makes sense.
And you were saying with your husband that recently you
started talking a little bit more about your childhood and
your relationship with your parents, and he said, wow, I
didn't know that about you, and that he had a
(44:49):
new appreciation of the dynamics and patterns in your family,
and this might give you an opportunity to be seen
more by him, and to see him more and get
even closer with him, which is where your energies really
should be directed at this point in your life. That's good,
I agree. How do you feel about doing that? I
(45:11):
think it makes perfect sense. I don't need to keep
trying to remake this relationship with my parents and to
deepen the one with my husband. Seems a much more enjoyable,
be much more hopeful, useful, And there's more of a
(45:32):
chance that he'll see me in a way that I
want all of me. He sees me better than they
do to begin with. So it's like starting with a
giant step forward. So we look forward to hearing back
from you great. Thank you both so much. I really
appreciate it, all right, thanks so much so. The letter
(46:00):
that she sent us was all about her sister, But
it turned out that when she ranked people on the
hierarchy of resentment, her sister was lowest down on that list.
And so I'm curious to see what happens now that
she's looking at this a little bit differently how she's
(46:20):
going to feel when she starts addressing some of the
underlying issues that she hadn't realized were there. And family
dynamics are like that, where you think the strong emotion
you have towards one person is really directed towards them,
but when you explore it, it turns out it's actually
directed towards someone else. And I'm hoping that with this exercise,
(46:43):
and obviously it's going to take more than one week
to feel the difference in terms of the relationship with
her parents, but that she will be on a path
now so she can really change the balance of that
dynamic so that she's not the one that keeps trying
to get something from them that they're not offering. Yeah,
so let's see what happens when she redirects those energies
toward her relationship with her husband and then also stops
(47:07):
directing so much energy toward something that really causes her
a lot of pain. And what I like about the
exercise we gave Hu is that it sounds like a
simple exercise to have something you appreciate about a person
every day, but since it's about who they are and
what they do, it's actually a little tricky. By day
five or six, you're like, hmm, what can I say that?
(47:29):
So it actually is going to Yeah, it's not so
much about you know, I appreciate it that you brought
me tea, but it's like I appreciate that you're a
truth teller. Right, those are very different. But it really
does make you investigate a little bit and dig a
little bit deeper. So I think that'll be really nice
for her to put effort into a relationship that actually
gives back. You're listening to dear Therapists from iHeartRadio, so
(48:06):
we heard from Haley, who, to remind you, is Mary
Poppin's sister. Hey, Laurie and Guy, it's Haley. Thank you
for your insightful questions and your helpful advice. The homework
assignment to do less and to direct my attention more
(48:28):
to my husband was actually a delight. Last weekend, I
didn't go to visit my parents when I could have,
like I usually do, But when I thought of making
the trip, I sent the resentment that Guy defined the
imbalance in the equation. So I went with groceries only
(48:48):
on Monday instead when I would have gone both days
before you told me to do less, and that felt
very good. It actually felt very RESTful. While I was
at my parents, I allowed myself to be a bit
less needy in terms of their approval, and miraculously enough,
(49:12):
as I believe you predicted, they came toward me more.
They gave me many more compliments and many more words
of appreciation, and that, of course felt very good too.
The other part of the homework, to give and receive
more praise for our good qualities with my husband was
(49:34):
equally transformative. After our talk, I went outside and explained
to him what we were supposed to be doing, and
I told him how much I appreciated his drive to
finish this very hard project he's got going on in
the yard, and he in turn express appreciation from my
(49:54):
thoughtful nature, and just in those few words, in that
one instant, it was like a long closed door between
the two of us opened, And through the week I
was thinking about that and doing the homework opened my
eyes to seeing my husband again as the man who
(50:15):
sees me clearly and who loves me very deeply, and
that felt like the greatest gift ever and one that
keeps on giving. And while I thought a lot in
metaphors all week. I came to see my best qualities
as a type of currency like euros, and I came
(50:39):
to see my father, especially as a man from another country,
one where they spend rupees or pasos, so he doesn't
see the value of my currency. And that led me
to take their lack of interest in me, their lack
of appreciation for my value much less personally. From there,
(51:01):
I saw that when I begin to feel this need
to quote entertain, that I should take it as a
sign that I'm trying too hard to win someone's approval,
and that it will likely be a failed effort no
matter how hard I try, because they see no value
in what I have to offer. For instance, I'm currently
(51:24):
at a writer's residency where we shared dinner distantly every evening,
and there's a woman here who's slightly disdainful of me,
or it feels that way, And I remembered my metaphor
of a currency that someone doesn't value. And I lay
(51:44):
there and I visualize the rest of the table, and
I saw the seven other people there and how I
got along with them, and I was able to let
this one person go, and that felt incredibly liberating for
turning it around for me, well, I thought that was beautiful.
And what I loved especially was the fact that she
(52:11):
had felt, like many people do, that she was still
trapped in the childhood dynamic and she wasn't able to
see her husband clearly, and so partly this opened up
a whole new avenue for her and her husband. But
the other part that was so beautiful was she's a
writer and she thinks in metaphor, and that metaphor was
so apt and helped her not only to understand her
(52:34):
relationship better with her parents, but also to understand herself
when she goes into that childhood place in other situations.
We can tell as therapists how well somebody internalizes our
message based on whether they're able to a apply it
in the situation in which we discussed it, but more importantly,
if they can generalize it to other situations, because if
(52:57):
they can, then they not only got it for that situation,
they've got something that was behind it. And here she
is generalizing it and coming to all these insights, and
some of them we didn't touch upon. They're just completely
her connections that she made. So to me, that is
a mark of someone who's not just a great writer,
but she listens so well, you know. And she mentioned
(53:19):
that she feels like her parents don't value her currency.
And what we saw happened, though, was that when she
became less invested in making them see something, it gave
them the space to acclimate to this new land, to
this new culture, to this new place that maybe isn't
(53:40):
their place of comfort. It's a land where it's about truth,
it's about creativity, it's about seeing things. And all of
a sudden they started getting used to it. They expressed
more interest in her. They started to say, Hey, what
are these coins that were not so familiar with? So
I thought that was beautiful. Hey, fellow travelers, if you've
(54:07):
used any of our advice from the podcast in your
own life, send us a quick voice memo to Lori
and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell us about it.
We may include it in a future show. Thank you
so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please
take a moment to rate and review it. You can
follow us both online. I'm at lorigotlib dot com and
(54:29):
you can follow me on Twitter at Lori gottlieb I
or on Instagram at Lorie Gottlieb, underscore author, and I'm
at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram
at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd like to
discuss with us, big or small, email us at Lorie
and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis,
(54:52):
were produced and edited by Mike Johns. Special thanks to
Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Kerr.
Next week, a trans man deals with family pushback as
he begins transitioning right before his sister's wedding. My mother
will go march for gay rights and all of these things,
(55:12):
but you know, as soon as her son comes out
to her that he is part of the transgender community,
that's where issues start arising. And then it's like, okay, well,
maybe you're not as accepting as you think that you are.
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy column for Ted. And this is Deatherapists. This week,
a woman struggles with resentment toward her sister, who always
(00:23):
seems like the perfect sibling to their parents. Sometimes I think, oh,
I should be better at this. I should ask them
more questions, because that's what Jill does when she's there.
She writes questions for the night and has people discuss
memories and labels, the antiques and oh my goodness, she
is Mary Poppins. Yeah, and it's like, all, I can't
(00:44):
compete with that. I don't know how to do that.
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
THEO Therapists is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not to substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
(01:06):
health professional, or uther qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition, By submitting a letter,
you are agreeing to let ihop media use it in
potter and full, and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hi Laurie, how are you. What do
we have today? Hey guy? Well, today we have a
letter about conflict between siblings. Oh that's always interesting because
(01:30):
that can go in many ways. Yes, so let me
go ahead and read you the letter. Dear therapists. I'm
having an issue with my sister Jill over the care
of our parents. I'm feeling resentful that she flies in
for week long visits, makes a big splash, then leaves
me to the never ending slog. When my sister comes
(01:50):
to town, she busies herself cleaning their house, archiving family history,
and in general being Mary Poppins, a regular ray of
sunshine and rainbows while she's here, or my parents are
happy and bright gone, or my mother's weepiness and my
father's grumpiness. It's nice that she's here to share the load,
but she will soon fly home, phone every other day
and return to her life far away, while I will
(02:12):
continue to carry the load up close. I've been grumbling
for months about needing help, but now I'm resentful of
the sunshine and rainbows, while I would like to escape
while she's here, hand over the rains and disappear. My
sister needs me to make the two five hour round
trips to the airport, so I'm bookended by needing to
be present. Plus my life continues unabated. My husband says,
(02:33):
I'm like the starting pitcher who carries the game, while
my sister's the closer who has a particular strength cleaning
in rainbows. The analogy helps, but it makes me wonder
how many starting pitchers sit in the dugout seething while
the closer gets the credit for winning the game, silently steaming.
I played eight innings and set this guy up for victory.
I'd love whatever advice you have for redirecting my resentment
(02:55):
into something more useful. Thanks for your time and attention, Hayley.
I'd say lovely request for advice there at the end,
because she's not saying i'd like your help and not
feeling resentful. She's saying, I'd like to redirect it into
something useful that sounds good to me, just as a
way to frame things. Resentment is interesting because it's really
(03:17):
about a feeling of unfairness. This balance that you're putting
out something and not getting enough back, or someone else
is getting more than you. There's real math in people's heads,
whether they're aware of it or not. When they're resentful,
there's accounting going on in their heads. Yeah, And I
wonder whether this counting, or this feeling of unbalanced is
(03:39):
just specific to this situation, or whether that's something that
has gone on between the sisters before when they were
growing up. The other interesting thing about the resentment here
is if she's resentful towards her sister, then it's because
the response the parents are giving her sister versus her.
And in that case, why is not resentful towards the parents?
(04:02):
Now there is the sister actually doing something to engender
the resentment other than just being herself. Right, I think
we need to explore the resentment more with her, So
let's go talk with her. Yes, you're listening to Dear
Therapist from my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a
(04:22):
quick break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and
this is Dear Therapists. Hi Hailey, Hello, thank you for
coming on the show. Thank you so much for choosing
(04:44):
my letter. I am such a fan of both of you.
I feel like I won the lottery. I'm very honored.
Thank you. We hope we can help you today. So hey,
you use the word slog. The slog with your parents,
what are you doing for them? And how much of
us log is it for you? The slog is that
they live an hour south of me by their own choice,
(05:08):
and both of my sisters live several states away. They're
both in their mid eighties. So when this quarantine hit
and the pandemic, I became the person to deliver groceries
for them, Like my husband does the grocery shopping, and
he's very good about that, but to keep them safe,
(05:30):
he does not go and visit, and I just go.
So it's just the three of us, and it has
been since March, and I go every week, sometimes twice
a week, and I often spend the night, and I
cooked dinner and I take desserts and just try to
be entertaining and keep their spirits up and keep them
(05:52):
fed and entertained. Was this an issue before COVID in
terms of feeling like you were the only person responsible
for being there for your parents, Yes, I do feel
that way. I'm always concerned about how my mother is
(06:13):
entertained and what they're doing. So it was an issue
before this, but I would only see them about every
other week, and that would be at a get together
or a party. None of this shopping, none of this
cooking that type of thing. Were you feeling this kind
(06:34):
of resentment when the situation was more normal and you
didn't have the shopping and the cooking involved. Not really,
Maybe a little bit when COVID started, and obviously when
it did, knowing you how long able to go on.
But since then have there been any conversations with you
and your two sisters about Hey, guys, look it's COVID
(06:55):
there in the really high risk group. I know you
live far away, but can we make a plan in
which we somehow ship the responsibilities. Is that conversation, a
three way conversation ever had? No it? Never did. They
took it upon themselves to initiate. I guess a foam
(07:16):
tree where one calls my mom one night and the
other one the next. But the three of us never
did have that conversation. Can you tell us a little
bit about what your relationship is like with both of
your sisters? You mentioned Jill in the letter. Can you
tell us the birth order, and what your relationship has
(07:37):
been like growing up, and what it's like as adults. Okay,
my oldest sister is Eve, and Jill is the middle,
and I'm the youngest. I think we all get along
in different ways. Eve is sort of politically different than
me and Jill. We don't have hard conversation. I guess
(08:00):
we just get along. I suppose that they're pretty good relationships.
Does Eve participate in this rotation in any way? Because
you mentioned joke flying in and doing the Mary Poppins thing.
What about Eve? No, she stays at home. It sounds
like you get along, but you're not necessarily super close.
Where you claimmates as kids, were your friends as kids
(08:22):
or were you just very different from one another? I
was very different from them, so they got along much
better and they actually ended up in the same grade.
And I was two years younger in school and was
always the black sheep. To be honest with you, they
would tell on me. I would get in trouble and
(08:44):
sort of the scapegoat for things that were going wrong
in the family. Can you give us an example of that.
I think an example would be that I think I
see my father more clearly for who he is, and
neither one of them sees any faults in him. So
I would be the one sort of saying the emperor
(09:04):
has no clothes, and they would be the people saying, no,
he's perfect, and he might be a perfect man, but
he wasn't a perfect father for me because I'm artistic
and he was military. So there was always that conflict.
So I stood outside of the four of them quite
a bit for that way of thinking. It was punished
for it. So you were feeling left out in your family.
(09:28):
It sounds like from pretty early on when you say
I was outside of the four of them, it wasn't
just your two sisters then who was seeing eye to eye,
But it sounds you're saying the four of them were,
and I was the one that felt left out in
a way, right right. It was always my fault when
things didn't work. My mother was always very angry with
(09:50):
me for not getting along with my dad. What did
she want you to do to get along better with
your dad? That's a good question. Just think he was
a nice guy, see him for his positive characteristics. Well, yeah,
if he's military, you just needed to match information as
(10:13):
it were with your sisters. That then you were not
marching information with your family, perhaps not just your sisters. Yeah,
So what did that feel like growing up? Because that's
quite stark what you're describing. It's not just oh, yes,
I had two older sisters and they would sometimes going
up on me. It was this feeling like I'm really
different from the entire family. There's something that I'm seeing
(10:35):
that I'm feeling that's different. What was that like for
you growing up with that feeling? It was probably very lonely,
But in a way I didn't mind being alone because
I didn't want to be with them. It was better.
It was better to be alone. You know, sometimes when
(11:00):
people are in your situation, On the one hand, they
feel like it's better to be alone because you're glad
to have the freedom to feel how you feel, to
think how you think, you sound like you were more
artistic and creative, to be able to acknowledge that side
of yourself. But sometimes there's also, at the same time
(11:20):
another part that feels almost envious of them because they're
not seeing what you're seeing, they're not thinking more deeply,
and so it just feels easier for them because they
all just get along and it just seems so easy,
and so sometimes it's like, I'm glad that I see
the world in this way, but wouldn't it be easier
(11:42):
if I didn't? Definitely, that was definitely there. The letter
you wrote to us is about resentment, and it's about
resentment for the current very specific situation, but it sounds
like they might have been cause for you to feel
resentment long ago as well, for being marginalized or fore
feeling a part for your sisters giving you a hard time.
(12:07):
Do you recall feeling resentment as a child or as
an adolescent. I mostly resented my mother forcing me to
get along with my dad when he wasn't nice to me.
They didn't see that, but he wasn't and he was
(12:28):
good about doing it when nobody else was around. So
I resented that nobody took my side. Can you give
us an example of the kind of thing he would
do when no one was around to you. It was
never physical. He would just speak very sternly to me,
yell at me when I wasn't getting the point. Up
(12:49):
into my twenties, we would be alone in the house
and he would just come and say, Tommy, you know,
very in your face, in my face, kind of like
a drill sergeant. And he would not do that to
your sisters. No, no, no, no, he didn't have a
reason to do it to them. They got along with him,
(13:11):
and you know when he said jump, they said how high?
And when he said jump, I said why. He's not
good at giving reasons. He just wants you to do it.
It's interesting that your letter talks a lot about your sister,
and right now you're talking about your resentment towards your mother,
and I wonder if there was also a resentment towards
(13:31):
your sisters for blaming you for things. They got me
in trouble. Like one time when I was a teenager,
I snuck out of the house and it was New
Year's Eve, I think, and I was coming back in
and they noticed and they locked the door, and instead
of what I thought a good sister would do, which
would be to help me get inside, they woke up
(13:54):
my dad and they got me in trouble. So that
was nice. It's almost like they got pleasure from seeing
you get in trouble. What it does is it solidifies
the family dynamic. It solidifies your position as the outsider. There.
You're literally the outsider. You were locked out of the house.
(14:15):
That's very true. The thing that's interesting about resentment is
that it's truly about this feeling of a lack of fairness,
that you're not getting something that you deserve, or someone's
getting more than you, and when they don't deserve getting
more than you. And when you're describing your childhood with
(14:37):
your parents and your sisters, it sounds like there's this
thread of a lack of fairness that's going on because
they all seem to get along. And it's not just
that they got along, but they seem to see eye
to eye and kind of agree with each other and
have the same philosophy and the same approach and the
same understanding of what one should do, and so it
(14:59):
was almost easy for them to get along. They didn't
really have to bend themselves into a pretzel. And you
not only didn't fit in, but you also didn't want
to bend yourself into a pretzel, so you stood out
even more. And that's why I was asking about whether
you've had this feeling of unfairness for a really long
time in your family. Well, it's funny because I never
(15:24):
thought that that was an issue of mine until I
got married and I was dating my husband, and he said, wow,
so everything's got to be fair. And I realized, then,
how often I say that's not fair? Why did she
get to do that? That's not fair? So it probably
has been there. I don't remember feeling it as a kid,
(15:47):
but he definitely brought it to my attention. When you
were younger and you felt that things weren't fair, who
did you go to to talk about that? It sounds
like you probably didn't go to your father. Did you
go to your mother? I might have, but she was
very invested in having him be right, so I don't
(16:13):
think she ever agreed with me and said you're right,
that's not fair. It was just more of a well
that's what he said. Was there ever a time when
there was something that your mother did that you felt
was not fair? So it wasn't about your father, Well,
it was related to him. Like I got a ticket
once and they mailed it to the house and she
(16:34):
opened it up and read it and said what did
you get this ticket for? And I said why did
you read my mail? And she said, well, the envelope
wasn't sealed. So I said, well, don't tell dad, and
she said, oh, I have to tell your father. I
tell your father everything. And I thought that's not fair,
like A, you read my letter and B you're telling him.
(16:55):
And see I was an adult. I think I was
in my twenties, and it wasn't fair when you said
to her, you know, please don't tell him, and she said,
I have to tell him. What did you do at
that point? What did those conversations look like? Do you
just back down or do you actually Oh? I probably
got pretty mad, but she was equally firm. And this
(17:19):
was marriage, and this is what married people do. They
don't have secrets from each other, and she couldn't keep
this secret from him, so she had to tell him.
You know, I think I realize why you're feeling so
resentful about the current situation because you have no allies
that you can go to. In other words, you can't
(17:40):
express it to your mom, or to your dad, or
to your sisters, because that will just be you drawing
a line between you and them again, because they all
seem fine with the arrangement. You're the one that doesn't. Again,
you're the one that doesn't fit in. And so is
it that's something that's going on that the resentment, the
frustration is not just about the unfairness of the current
(18:03):
situation and the heavy load that's on your shoulders. You
would think, given the relationship and how close your sisters
were to your parents and how much they think like
them even today, they would be the ones carrying that load.
But because of the geography, it falls on you. And
yet if you complained about it or said something, then
they might close ranks again and be like, nope, that's
you being different. I think that's very true. That's a
(18:28):
very good point, because I have felt very alone in this,
and when I would ask my husband back in March,
I would say, oh, please come with me, just please
come and have dinner with us. It's just so hard
with just the three of us, it's just so hard
to have the conversation twice a week. And he would say, well,
I can't a grocery shop. I'm keeping them healthy, I'm
(18:49):
keeping them safe. And so I couldn't even talk to
him about it. Even though he couldn't come with, you
feel like he's an ally in the sense of understanding
how you feel about the situation and the added layer
of perceived unfairness. It seems like often when you were
(19:12):
growing up, people pointed out the things you did wrong,
and they didn't protect you, they didn't have your back
when things went wrong like New Year's Eve or like
getting a ticket, and some your left with being the
person who's in the trenches, who's doing the daily slog.
(19:33):
And I wonder if your husband understands that aspect of it.
Do you feel like you have some emotional support from him,
or does he also feel like, well, that's just how
it is and you just have to deal with it.
He's probably getting a better idea of it. I think
he has trouble relating to my situation because he didn't
(19:56):
grow up with his dad, so whenever I complain about
my dad, he thinks, well, at least you had one.
But I was talking to him more about it the
other night because he did come to dinner with me finally,
and I got the chance to tell him more about
how it had been for me when I was young
(20:18):
with my dad yelling at me, and I think he
heard it for the first time and didn't kind of
defend it and say that I was lucky to have
a dad in the house. Yeah, because it almost repeats
the pattern that was going on in your house when
you go to your husband for support, and he says, well,
you know, you don't have it that bad. Yeah, it
(20:41):
was not helpful because I wouldn't wish it on anybody,
but it wasn't very understanding on his part. But I
think we're getting past that. Do your parents express appreciation
for the incredible efforts that you're putting forth to really
prove right for them, to keep them safe? They do,
(21:02):
They do. My mother is very appreciative, and she thanks
me and sends me emails and sends me notes, and
my dad says thank you, And they are appreciative, and
it's really great that they're appreciative. That helps a lot.
But I think that there's something else that you still
(21:24):
want from them, which is an acknowledgement of your goodness.
And I see you nodding there, right. You weren't really
seen and appreciated for who you are when you are
growing up, and so what they're appreciating right now is
what you're doing for them, which again is good. But
(21:46):
I think that there's still a yearning for you to
have them appreciate who you are as a person, your creativity,
how artistic you are, your ways of being an independent person,
in being able to think for yourself, even devotion and loyalty, right,
(22:09):
her generosity, her devotion, her loyalty, all of that, but
to appreciate who you are as a person, your essence.
And so when your sister comes in and you said,
like Mary Poppins, and what they see is not just
everything she's doing that weak, but I think that you
have a sense they see something else in her that
(22:31):
they haven't really looked hard enough to see in you.
They really like her essence because it mirrors their own.
I think you're fighting here not just for recognition of
what you're doing for them now, but recognition of your personhood. Haley.
(22:52):
I see you nodding a lot, and I guess I'm
wondering when you're there, when you're talking to them, are
you telling them about your life? Are they asking questions
about what's going on with you? Are they getting to
know you the adult you, and what your life is
about and what you are about? Other opportunities for that
(23:12):
when you spend time there, there are I feel like
I talked too much about myself, though you know it's
not that interesting. Day to day. I'm a writer. I
sit in this room and sometimes I think, oh, I
should be better at this I should ask them more questions,
because that's what Jill does when she's there. She writes
(23:36):
questions for the night and has people discuss memories and labels,
the antiques and oh my gonness, she is Mary Puppins. Yeah,
I can't compete with that. I don't know how to
do that. Do they ask you at all about what
you're writing? Do they show an interest in your writing?
My mom does more than my dad, to the point
(23:59):
that I kind of try not to talk to her
about it because she's always begging me to read it
and she gets really weepy because I don't let her
read my work anymore. It's a little bit of a
touchy subject. And I think they didn't like the work
I did when I was in graduate school because they
were some pretty raw poems about my life and they
(24:24):
didn't really care for that. So the whole thing, whenever
I start talking about poems, they look like deers in
the headlights, like, oh God, please don't talk about your poems.
They're painful. That is something I could talk about. I
can talk forever about writing, but that's not their favorite subject.
But it sounds like you're the truth speaker in the family, right, Like,
(24:46):
you're the one that speaks the truth and everyone else
just kind of folds Anne and doesn't address things. Right,
you're the one that speaks about what's actually going on. Right,
You're exactly right. And that's been my role my whole life.
And I had a counselor once and she said to me,
but you need to realize nobody likes the person who
tells the truth. That's not a way to be popular.
(25:09):
So I was like, wow, okay, I'm not popular. Well
yet another person who wasn't seeing it your way. No,
and this one was your counselor. That's unfortunate. There's something
very liberating about being the truth teller, and it's hard
to see when you're on the outside and you felt
like an outsider for so long. But what you're not
(25:33):
seeing are their struggles, because if the truth is so
threatening to them, if the truth feels so painful to them,
there's a struggle going on there. It just looks very
different from the way yours is expressed. You mean, it's
a struggle for them to keep the truth hidden. So
(25:54):
you think they know it, You think they don't need
me to say it, like they already know it's not
about keeping the truth. It's about not even asking questions
to uncover it a lot of the time. Right, So
it's not that they're sitting there thinking, oh, I agree
with her totally, but I don't want to admit it.
They're not doing that exploration. They're not asking those questions
(26:15):
that they would have to answer with truths. And that's
because any time they might go there just kind of
tiptoe over there in their minds, they immediately retreat. And
you are saying, wait a minute, I'm not just tiptoeing
over there. I'm running full force over there. Yeah, I'm
going to stop my way over there and stop my
(26:35):
way back and tell you what I found out when
I was over there, and you said it in your letter.
Jill comes in with rainbows and sunshine and sunshine and
rainbows and unicorns and who knows what, And that's so
much more repeating to them, Yes, let's let's have the
sunshine and the rainbows, not this truth thing that you,
(26:56):
Haley keep peddling. Albeit now that I'm saying that, the
fact that you'll's curious to see the writing when she
knows that you're the truth teller, when she's had the
experience of reading your poems and going like yikes. That
means there's a part of her that does want to know,
even if it's to be able to mount a very
strong defense against what you're saying. But there's a part
of her that's curious. She might be the only one. Yeah,
(27:19):
you're probably right, but there have been enough conversations about
I can't believe you see me that way. It's like
I can't be your psychiatrist too, you know, I can't
help you come to peace with how I feel. It
sounds like she feels blamed as opposed to being curious
(27:41):
about your experience. Yeah, I would agree, and that makes
it hard for her to hear it. And I wonder
if your sisters feel the same way. What is their
relationship to the things that you've written. They haven't read
anything in a long time. It's like being a teenager
in the house. I go in my room and that's
(28:02):
kind of where I am in my writing stays, which
isn't a good place to be as a writer, because
I'm torn about getting it out into the world. I
think this whole thing holds me back in that way,
because then we'll have to explain defend directed toward you. Yep,
yep that you said they hadn't seen your writing in
(28:26):
a long time, meaning they used to read your writing. Yeah.
I used to publish little chat books when I was
in graduate school. The poems I had written each semester
I would print out and make covers for and I
would sell them at these readings I did and give
them to my family. So what did'd your sister say
about the poems? Usually never much. My one sister, Eve
(28:50):
was really into it, and she always says, I can't
wait till you publish a book. I can't wait to
read it. And I think Jill just didn't know what
to say. What was it like for Eve to be
interested in your writing? It was good, It was nice.
She kept all my chap books. It was an interesting
(29:13):
place for us to meet on that level. Did you
talk at all about the content of the poems? It
sounds like they were about your family and you said,
she's the one you politically disagree with the most. Is
she the person that you disagree the most with about
what the reality is in your family? Did she find
(29:35):
anything in there and say, oh, yeah, I felt that
way too, or I can see how you saw that. No,
never any of that. We never talked about the issues.
What we do align on is how tiresome Jill is sometimes,
how even I both get tired of this sort of
(29:56):
Mary Poppins aspect, and we can roll our eyes about
that together. She complains to me about Jill's kids, and
Jill complains to me about Eve's kids, and so that's
kind of where we meet on this level. Had nothing
to do with my writing where is Eve? In terms
(30:17):
of taking care of your parents? Jill comes in and
does the Mary Poppins thing, and you there on the
daily grind, Where's Eve? Eve stays at home. Her family
isn't quarantining very much. She can't come visit, or she won't.
My mom doesn't enjoy her as much as she enjoys
(30:38):
Jill because they're politically different too. And Eve has a
bit of a hot temper. She's a little a little
more difficult to be around, a little angry. She's a
little bit of an angry person. So I don't think
Mom misses her not coming. I'm sure she misses her,
(31:01):
that's a terrible thing to say, but she stays where
she is. So the resentment you feel there are these
four people in your family, to whom do you feel
most resentful, to whom least? I'm okay at the resentment pie.
And let's see who gets what portions. That's a really
(31:21):
good question. I think I give fifty percent to my parents,
because you separate your parents, Okay, I would give my dad.
I'm just gonna give it all equally. Everybody gets twenty
five percent of the pie. Is that a math phobia
(31:43):
or is that how you really feel? It's because I'm
not good at math. But it's also then just rank them.
Can you rank it from most to least? Where the
resentment is the most and where the resentment is the least.
I think I resent my dad the most, but he
is honestly tied with my mom. Because they had this
(32:05):
opportunity to live closer to where I live, on more
of a family compound. And when they were making this choice,
I said to them, and this was ten years ago,
I said, I really think you should move on that
family compound. It'll just be better for you. It'll be
closer to people that you know. And they refused, and
(32:28):
so they moved to this other house and now they
live an hour away. And I sit here thinking I'm
the one who knew you should have moved to this place,
and now I'm the one that's got to drive two
hours every time to this place you moved to that
I didn't think you should move to in the first place.
So that's a lot of my resentment about all of this.
(32:51):
And when I told my husband that the first time,
he said, you know what, I worry about you resenting
something that you can't change. So I just kind of
shut up about that and thought, okay, well, I'll resent
that quietly. Then it sounds like it's so hard for
(33:11):
you to talk about your resentment because every time you
talk about it, you get shut down. Even with your husband,
he's not trying to shut you down, but he's not
making space for it either. I agree, I want to
go back because we didn't finish on that ranking scale.
(33:32):
It was hard for you to say, I'm resentful that
they didn't consider me in the move, and now I'm
bearing the burden of that. Yeah. Yeah, And so you
put them first in the ranking? Where do Eve and
Jill fall? Who falls next in terms of your resentment?
Probably because she doesn't really seem to be doing anything,
(33:55):
like she sent me some bottles of wine at the
very beginning, like here, you're doing a job, which I
really appreciated. But that was like April. So now I
think she calls my mom. I think she feels like
she's doing her part that way, but it's it's not
a lot. So Jill is the person that you're least
(34:16):
resentful of in your family. But your whole letter was
about Jill. Yeah, I know that's very true. And I
think it was because she was here and I could
see it firsthand, like how bright my mom was and
how bubbly and how excited they were, and I thought, wow,
I come here and it's like, hey, you know, you
(34:38):
don't get the same reception. Yeah, I'm the food that
they eat every day. They're just tired of this dish
and then they got something new and exciting. But I
did see it the other day with my husband when
he came and he was talking to my dad, and
my dad just lit up and he's telling my husband
all these stories about his career, and I I try
(35:00):
to ask my dad questions like that because I'm curious,
and I just get a I don't know, I don't remember.
I just got furious because my dad was sitting on
the floor beaming up at my husband, and my husband
was asking him questions, and I was like, where's this
guy When I'm around, I ask him questions. I want
to know that stuff about his career. And I don't
(35:22):
get that. You do so much for them. You go there,
you cook, you shop, you buy, you prepare, you tell
them stories, you stay over. You do so much, and
it seems like you get so little back from them
in terms of their enthusiasm. Right. You know, your sister
Mary Poppins come into town and they're all smighty, but
when it's you, they're weepy. And your husband comes and
(35:44):
now they're all chatty, but when it's here, they're not.
I guess I'm wondering, Haiti, if part of the reason
you do so much is that you have the hope
that if you keep doing more, maybe they'll finally start
to treat you the way they've treated your sisters and
see you with the same eyes with which they see Jill.
(36:06):
I totally agree with that. I totally agree with that.
And as a matter of fact, this week, after this
dinner with my husband the other night, I thought, how
do you stop caring? You know, how do you stop
caring if your parent likes you, you know, how do
you get to that point? How do you make peace
with that? Right? But that seems so painful? Right, so
(36:28):
how do you stop? Well, maybe that's where the problem
has been, is that your solution to this has been, well,
I don't care, you said earlier. I was glad that
I was the outsider because I was the person who
saw the truth and I was talking about the both
and of that that, yes, and there's something very painful
(36:51):
about being the person on the outside, even if there
are benefits to it, and there were benefits that helped you,
you would not have survived if you just told the line.
It would have taken away every shred of your identity
to pretend to be a person that you weren't. So
the good news is you saved yourself by saying I
(37:13):
am going to be the person that I am. But
the consequence of that was that it became very lonely
and you started to wonder about how you were loved
in your family, and it's something that you still wonder.
And so I think the problem is that your solution
is how do I learn how to not feel? How
(37:36):
do I learn how to not care? To so at
odds with the essence of who you are. You're a
feeling person, you're a caring person, you're a writer. You observe,
you emote, you see the truth, you don't pretend. So
maybe we can come up with a solution for you
that doesn't involve trying not to care. That would be great,
(38:01):
because I'm not good at that. They're not caring, yes,
And we're not trying to get you to not care,
because that would be asking you to not be human. So, Henny,
we have some advice for you, and it's related to
your essential question about resentment. Great, And here's how resentment works.
(38:27):
It is an equation of what you give versus what
you get, and there's a deficit and that's what engenders resentment.
And with your parents, what your resentment is about is
that you have been putting in truly extraordinary efforts. Right
you go down there, you shop for them, you cook
for them, you spend the night, you try and talk
(38:49):
about yourself and tell them stories. And you said, I
try and entertain them. And you know, if you were
to say, like in the Gladiators, are you not entertained,
they're unfortunately, And then what's really making you resentful is
that then Jill sweeps into town and entertains the shit
out of them so easily. Even when your husband comes down,
(39:11):
your dad gets all animated, and so in order to
balance that equation, because what you're doing is not working right,
investing more and more to try and get that response
from them is not working. So therefore the only way
to lower the resentment is to address the other half
of the equation, and that is to do less. But
(39:32):
they're elderly. The cooking is important, the shopping is important.
The one piece we think you can withdraw your efforts
from and as you said in your letter, redirect them
to something more useful is the entertainment piece, because that's
the least successful piece. You can recruit both sisters to
(39:52):
do zoom evenings with them and have them watch the
grandkids and whatever it is to take over some of
the entertainment piece, but we you to redirect that piece. Great.
The thing about entertaining them is that you get hurt
every time because you aren't just trying to make sure
that they're entertained, but you're trying to have them see
(40:15):
your essence, and that's not happening. And so every time
you put your efforts there, you're setting yourself up for
disappointment and resentment. We think that you should redirect your
energies toward your husband and your adult relationship. In terms
(40:38):
of being appreciated for who you are in your family,
there was not a lot of appreciation shown for who
you are. There was a lot of don't be like that,
get in line march with the rest of us. There
wasn't a lot of, Oh, you're so interesting. Oh that's
an interesting perspective. Oh, let me look at your writing. Right,
(40:59):
There wasn't a lot of that. There wasn't a lot
of Oh, I'm so glad you're telling the truth, right,
I'm so glad you're brave. Yeah, none of that. You
weren't appreciated for your courage, for your bravery, for your perceptiveness, Nope,
for your creativity, that was not appreciated. And so what
(41:23):
we'd like you to do is to redirect that into
your adult relationship. And for the next week, we would
like you and your husband to each write down, once
a day, one thing that you truly appreciate about the
other person's essence, Okay, and then we would like you
(41:44):
to share that with the other person. Maybe it's at bedtime,
maybe it's at dinner, and we'd like you to spend
just five minutes sharing what that thing is for that
day and then telling them about it. That's so fun
because last night he just said people would kill for
your creative mind than I said. So yeah, that's his
(42:07):
first one. And at the end of the seven days,
we would like you to report back to us and
let us know first of all, how it felt to
know that you're taking good care of your parents, but
also not trying to bend over backwards to get something
(42:30):
from them that makes you feel bad every time. And
then secondly to let us know how it felt to
give and get that with your husband. Okay, so can
I ask you a question? Yes, how do I stop
(42:52):
trying to be entertaining with my parents? What does that
look like? You spend less time there? I don't know.
If you have to spend the night there, you can
do groceries and shopping and cooking for the week and
make one trip and drop things off and hello and
(43:13):
get them a hug, do some cooking, leave things in
their freezer. Freezers are great, and get that done for them,
and then you can zoom in one day during the
week instead of making a two hour drive. Hey, just
checking in. How are you guys doing. How's everything going
right right? And it's also possible, Hayley, that if they
get bored, they might say, you know, maybe we should
(43:37):
move to that place nearer you, where we can be
among other people, our age, et cetera, because we're getting
a little bored here with one another, and they might
start to notice your absence and they might start to
say to each other, wow, we really miss Haley. We
(44:01):
didn't appreciate how much we enjoy her company. And they
might even seek it out. And I think that will
feel a lot better to you to have them seek
you out because they enjoy your company and they miss it,
they notice the absence than for you to say, see me,
hear me, look at me, appreciate me. That would feel different,
(44:27):
and then in the meantime, you'd be getting that and
focusing your energies on that in the relationship that you
have as an adult with your husband. That makes sense.
And you were saying with your husband that recently you
started talking a little bit more about your childhood and
your relationship with your parents, and he said, wow, I
didn't know that about you, and that he had a
(44:49):
new appreciation of the dynamics and patterns in your family,
and this might give you an opportunity to be seen
more by him, and to see him more and get
even closer with him, which is where your energies really
should be directed at this point in your life. That's good,
I agree. How do you feel about doing that? I
(45:11):
think it makes perfect sense. I don't need to keep
trying to remake this relationship with my parents and to
deepen the one with my husband. Seems a much more enjoyable,
be much more hopeful, useful, And there's more of a
(45:32):
chance that he'll see me in a way that I
want all of me. He sees me better than they
do to begin with. So it's like starting with a
giant step forward. So we look forward to hearing back
from you great. Thank you both so much. I really
appreciate it, all right, thanks so much so. The letter
(46:00):
that she sent us was all about her sister, But
it turned out that when she ranked people on the
hierarchy of resentment, her sister was lowest down on that list.
And so I'm curious to see what happens now that
she's looking at this a little bit differently how she's
(46:20):
going to feel when she starts addressing some of the
underlying issues that she hadn't realized were there. And family
dynamics are like that, where you think the strong emotion
you have towards one person is really directed towards them,
but when you explore it, it turns out it's actually
directed towards someone else. And I'm hoping that with this exercise,
(46:43):
and obviously it's going to take more than one week
to feel the difference in terms of the relationship with
her parents, but that she will be on a path
now so she can really change the balance of that
dynamic so that she's not the one that keeps trying
to get something from them that they're not offering. Yeah,
so let's see what happens when she redirects those energies
toward her relationship with her husband and then also stops
(47:07):
directing so much energy toward something that really causes her
a lot of pain. And what I like about the
exercise we gave Hu is that it sounds like a
simple exercise to have something you appreciate about a person
every day, but since it's about who they are and
what they do, it's actually a little tricky. By day
five or six, you're like, hmm, what can I say that?
(47:29):
So it actually is going to Yeah, it's not so
much about you know, I appreciate it that you brought
me tea, but it's like I appreciate that you're a
truth teller. Right, those are very different. But it really
does make you investigate a little bit and dig a
little bit deeper. So I think that'll be really nice
for her to put effort into a relationship that actually
gives back. You're listening to dear Therapists from iHeartRadio, so
(48:06):
we heard from Haley, who, to remind you, is Mary
Poppin's sister. Hey, Laurie and Guy, it's Haley. Thank you
for your insightful questions and your helpful advice. The homework
assignment to do less and to direct my attention more
(48:28):
to my husband was actually a delight. Last weekend, I
didn't go to visit my parents when I could have,
like I usually do, But when I thought of making
the trip, I sent the resentment that Guy defined the
imbalance in the equation. So I went with groceries only
(48:48):
on Monday instead when I would have gone both days
before you told me to do less, and that felt
very good. It actually felt very RESTful. While I was
at my parents, I allowed myself to be a bit
less needy in terms of their approval, and miraculously enough,
(49:12):
as I believe you predicted, they came toward me more.
They gave me many more compliments and many more words
of appreciation, and that, of course felt very good too.
The other part of the homework, to give and receive
more praise for our good qualities with my husband was
(49:34):
equally transformative. After our talk, I went outside and explained
to him what we were supposed to be doing, and
I told him how much I appreciated his drive to
finish this very hard project he's got going on in
the yard, and he in turn express appreciation from my
(49:54):
thoughtful nature, and just in those few words, in that
one instant, it was like a long closed door between
the two of us opened, And through the week I
was thinking about that and doing the homework opened my
eyes to seeing my husband again as the man who
(50:15):
sees me clearly and who loves me very deeply, and
that felt like the greatest gift ever and one that
keeps on giving. And while I thought a lot in
metaphors all week. I came to see my best qualities
as a type of currency like euros, and I came
(50:39):
to see my father, especially as a man from another country,
one where they spend rupees or pasos, so he doesn't
see the value of my currency. And that led me
to take their lack of interest in me, their lack
of appreciation for my value much less personally. From there,
(51:01):
I saw that when I begin to feel this need
to quote entertain, that I should take it as a
sign that I'm trying too hard to win someone's approval,
and that it will likely be a failed effort no
matter how hard I try, because they see no value
in what I have to offer. For instance, I'm currently
(51:24):
at a writer's residency where we shared dinner distantly every evening,
and there's a woman here who's slightly disdainful of me,
or it feels that way, And I remembered my metaphor
of a currency that someone doesn't value. And I lay
(51:44):
there and I visualize the rest of the table, and
I saw the seven other people there and how I
got along with them, and I was able to let
this one person go, and that felt incredibly liberating for
turning it around for me, well, I thought that was beautiful.
And what I loved especially was the fact that she
(52:11):
had felt, like many people do, that she was still
trapped in the childhood dynamic and she wasn't able to
see her husband clearly, and so partly this opened up
a whole new avenue for her and her husband. But
the other part that was so beautiful was she's a
writer and she thinks in metaphor, and that metaphor was
so apt and helped her not only to understand her
(52:34):
relationship better with her parents, but also to understand herself
when she goes into that childhood place in other situations.
We can tell as therapists how well somebody internalizes our
message based on whether they're able to a apply it
in the situation in which we discussed it, but more importantly,
if they can generalize it to other situations, because if
(52:57):
they can, then they not only got it for that situation,
they've got something that was behind it. And here she
is generalizing it and coming to all these insights, and
some of them we didn't touch upon. They're just completely
her connections that she made. So to me, that is
a mark of someone who's not just a great writer,
but she listens so well, you know. And she mentioned
(53:19):
that she feels like her parents don't value her currency.
And what we saw happened, though, was that when she
became less invested in making them see something, it gave
them the space to acclimate to this new land, to
this new culture, to this new place that maybe isn't
(53:40):
their place of comfort. It's a land where it's about truth,
it's about creativity, it's about seeing things. And all of
a sudden they started getting used to it. They expressed
more interest in her. They started to say, Hey, what
are these coins that were not so familiar with? So
I thought that was beautiful. Hey, fellow travelers, if you've
(54:07):
used any of our advice from the podcast in your
own life, send us a quick voice memo to Lori
and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell us about it.
We may include it in a future show. Thank you
so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please
take a moment to rate and review it. You can
follow us both online. I'm at lorigotlib dot com and
(54:29):
you can follow me on Twitter at Lori gottlieb I
or on Instagram at Lorie Gottlieb, underscore author, and I'm
at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram
at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd like to
discuss with us, big or small, email us at Lorie
and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis,
(54:52):
were produced and edited by Mike Johns. Special thanks to
Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Kerr.
Next week, a trans man deals with family pushback as
he begins transitioning right before his sister's wedding. My mother
will go march for gay rights and all of these things,
(55:12):
but you know, as soon as her son comes out
to her that he is part of the transgender community,
that's where issues start arising. And then it's like, okay, well,
maybe you're not as accepting as you think that you are.
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.