January 6, 2026 • 56 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. Liam has just come out to his family as a transgender man and begun hormone replacement therapy. His sister is getting married soon and he promised to be her Maid of Honor, and while he no longer feels comfortable wearing a dress, he also doesn't want to make things awkward for his sister and the rest of the family. We discuss his struggle over his gender expression and help him to see that being true to himself is what will ultimately make everyone most comfortable.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Hey, fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy Collumn for TED. And this
is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
This week, a trans man deals with family pushback as
he begins transitioning right before his sister's wedding.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
My mother will go march for gay rights and all
of these things. But you know, as soon as her
son comes out to her that he is part of
the transgender community, that's where issues start arising. And then
it's like, Okay, well, maybe you're not as accepting as
you think that you are.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice,
and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a
letter you are agreeing to. Let iHeartMedia use it in
(03:28):
partner and full and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hey Laurie, Hey guy, Well this week
our letter is time sensitive.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Oh well, in that case, let's get right to it.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Indeed, let's do that. Dear therapists, I come to you
both begging for help on a tough issue I'm facing.
Last month, I came out to my family as transgender
and began my hormone replacement therapy in the lengthy conversion
of female to male. My sister is getting married, and
because of COVID, the wedding was postponed for months. The
(04:03):
wedding was originally planned for April and now will commence
next month. I'm serving as my sister's maid of honor,
and I'm expected to wear a dress and make up.
I've suffered from body dysphoria since a young age, constantly
covering up my body when swimming, dressing more masculine, and
it has been getting worse with the wedding drawing closer.
(04:24):
Finally allowing myself to wear what I feel comfortable in
has really made me so much happier, and I feel
like this wedding is throwing me back into the old discord.
I spoke to my sister about alternative options, but she
gave me an ultimatum. Wear the dress and stand on
her side, or wear the same thing as the men
and stand on his side standing next to a slough
(04:45):
of since gendered males in nice formal wear will only
make my body dysphoria worse. I've spoken to my other
sister about the matter, but she does not know what
to do or have any suggestions besides not being in
the wedding altogether. Please let me know if you have
any advice or even something I can do to try
and ease my anxiety about this day coming soon. The
(05:05):
plane at the moment is to endure the mental depression
and to just do this one thing for my sister,
even though it's really taking a toll on me. Liam.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
This is a really tough situation for Liam, and it's
especially hard because I think that he's in uncharted territory
and I think that his family has just gotten this
news and they are trying to be supportive, but Liam
(05:36):
is not feeling supported, and it's hard for them to
communicate about what would make Liam feel supported.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
We are at a place now in society where we're
recognizing that gender is not binary. And here Liam is
faced with a binary choice when he really doesn't want
to have to make a binary choice one way or
the other at the moment. And so there's this very
literal translation of where society is in terms of coming
to terms with the fluidity of gender.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I think you're right that this really underlines how aey
has not caught up. And you can see that on
the smaller level within families where people say this is
who I am and there are no rules, people don't
know what to do. And I think that we need
to help Liam to get his voice heard.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Here, let's go talk to him. You're listening to Deo
Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break.
I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is
Deo Therapist.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
So Hi Liam, Hi, Thank you guys so much for having.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Me, Thank you so much for coming on. So Liam,
we know this was time sensitive. Tell us if there's
been any developments since you wrote your letter.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Yeah, absolutely so. Initially, upon touching on this subject, I
feel as though I reached a point where I kind
of gave in to, yeah, I will go with what
you truly want, and then we kind of left it,
and I started to talk to my other sister, Tina,
(07:21):
and she really had no advice on where to go.
It was still bothering me. And then it just so
happened that my sister Sarah called, and it kind of
seemed like, oh, she called, let me just lightly bring
the subject back up, and at the mere mention of
this subject, she got very defensive and very touchy. I
(07:43):
reiterated that I was just trying to have a conversation,
but it was very clear her frustration about it. It
was I thought we dealt with it already. I thought
we had discussed what we were doing. So I was
met with a lot of emotion.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So Sarah's the one who's getting married, right, and what
is the birth order?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Tina is the oldest, She's about seven years my senior,
and then Sarah's two years my senior, and then I'm
the youngest.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Okay, And before this wedding stuff came up, and before
you told them that you were transitioning, what was your
relationship like with both of your sisters.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
We had a bit of a rocky childhood, so we
got very close, very quickly. I was closer with Sarah
because we shared a room for majority of our childhood.
I mean, we've always been really close. I don't think
there's a day that I go without speaking to both
of them.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Tell us about the rockiness of the childhood.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
We had abusive parents, so we stuck together through a
lot of hard times. We constantly were ripped out of
our home, stayed with other people. Some of our friends
couldn't know where we lived, so that was kind of hard.
We kind of looked at Tina like the mother sometimes,
(09:12):
if you will. She did a lot because she was
the oldest. I think everything affected her a little bit differently.
She kind of took on this leadership role and me
and Sarah kind of were waiting on her word, doing
what she thought would be best.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
When you say you were ripped from your home, do
you mean that child services took you out of the home.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
I don't want to say child services ever came, but
family members would come. My aunt would come and grab
us and we'd stay at her house. A lot of
my best friends in school, they weren't allowed to know
whose house we were staying at, just in case it
were to get back to my father, but we still
went to the same school, so he was able to come,
and he had lunch with me a couple times, so
(09:57):
that I feel like alienated me a little bit because
I would be sitting at the lunch table with my
father crying at the end, while the rest of my
class was happy eating lunch, and they're like, why is
why is his dad coming and sitting with them? And
all they do is cry.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Oh wow, can you Can you tell us a little
bit about your parents and what might have been going
on with them and what kind of abuse you had
to endure.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
The physical abuse was towards my mother. We witnessed it
and heard it a lot. We often were the ones
that had to call the cops, so that was terrifying.
We also had family members that would stop us from
calling the cops and tell us to go back in
our room and everything was fine, So then we would
(10:46):
have to crawl on the floor to get to the
phone to call for help. We were in a really
underdeveloped neighborhood, so it wasn't like we could run to
the neighbor's house and go, you know, ask for help
or anything like that, So that kind of banded us
all together. I feel like, in unfortunate ways.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
There were other family members living in the home. They
were just visiting so of this and then told you
not to intervene.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
They would be visiting. My maternal grandmother was majority of
the time the one to say, put the phone down,
go to your room. They're having a discussion.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
You a maternal grandmother, No.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
I'm sorry, I think I misspoke my paternal that makes
my grandmother. And then because of that going on, my
then maternal grandmother came and stayed with us, kind of
acting like a guard dog almost to make sure that
none of that was going on with her daughter being involved.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
And at what point did you leave the home the.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Final time that we left and did not come back,
I was seven, so that would make Sarah nine and
Tina must have been around fourteen.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And where did you go? What happened?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
We went to one of my aunt's houses. It wasn't
the same town, it wasn't too inconvenient, but that was
one of the addresses that I wasn't allowed to have
friends over, and we kind of all crammed in this
two bedroom house and tried to live as completely normal
as everything was with your mom with my mother, when.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Did the body dysphoria start?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Honestly, when I was speaking to my mom about it
the first time. The way that I introduced the topic was,
do you remember when I was about five and every
time I would go in the pool, I would wear
this giant T shirt. Numerous times it was the reason
that I would be drowning, where it was like, why
(12:48):
do you wear that? That's not going to help you.
You know, wearing a bathing suit would be easier for
you to swim in. So I remember from a young
age I was constantly covering myself when I was going
in the pool. Also, I mean just dressing in general.
I was always I was very famous for wearing soccer
shorts to school, the same boyish outfits, if you will.
(13:09):
So I would say, as young as I can remember,
around like five or six, I was tending to cover up.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
How old are you now, Liam, oh? Eight twenty eight?
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
So what was it about the last maybe year when
you decided you were ready to transition?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
I think the biggest factors that allowed me to be
true to myself was that I just bought my first
house this year, so I have a perfectly safe environment
I have a great job that I work for amazing
people that don't treat me any different. They don't make
me feel as though I'm jeopardizing my job by being honest.
(13:57):
So really those main things is just having my shelter
that I don't have to worry about, and having my
job that isn't going to terminate me for any of
these reasons.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
When did you first start to realize that you were
a transgender and when did you come out and how
did that go?
Speaker 4 (14:16):
I think I've always really known. I was always wishing
on my birthday candles that I was a boy for
as long as I can remember. I thought that it
was something that nothing could be done. I just had
to deal with it. I had to suppress it. I
had to come to terms with this is the way
(14:39):
I was born, this is the way I'm going to die.
There's really nothing you can do about it. But really
seriously got into the idea of transitioning back in twenty fourteen.
As soon as I got out of college. I went
to a big university, so it was very diverse. I
went to a lot of the LGBTQ community meetings, met
(15:00):
a lot of people through that, and twenty fourteen, I
spoke to one friend about it, one person I confided
in and really rest my true feelings, and he was great,
He was amazing, and he encouraged me to take the
next step. I set up all of the appointments that
I needed to with the doctors, and to be honest,
(15:22):
at the last second, I just did not go to
any of them. At the time, when I moved back
from college, I was living with my mother again, regrouping
on where to go now. I just finished college. What
kind of career am I going into? And I think
by that pressure it kind of teared me from taking
(15:42):
this route any sooner.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
When you say that pressure, you mean you came home
from college, you told your mom and she didn't react.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Well, I didn't tell anybody back in twenty fourteen except
that one friend. The one friend. By skipping those appointments,
I think that was me weaseling out of actually addressing
the issue and talking about it with any of my
famis family. So I recently just came out to her
(16:13):
last month, and she is legally deaf. She relies heavily
on reading lips. We have a house phone that when
you call it will type the dialogue, so that she
can read it back. So I actually had her come
and stay with me, and I wanted to have this
(16:34):
conversation face to face with her.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
How did that conversation go?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
So I explained to her about the body dysporias since
I was young, you know, the bathing suit, the covering up.
I kind of was allowing her to connect her own
dots there. And as soon as I said the words
like I'm going to transition, the first thing that she
said was I knew you were going to say that.
(17:02):
In that moment, she told me everything that I did
want to hear. I still love you. I will never
cut you out of the family or stop talking to
you or stop loving you. And I felt very relieved
and very happy at that time. She was actually the
last person that I told even though I have a
(17:22):
great relationship with her. It was the hardest because she
was brought up very Catholic and I just was very
unsure of how she would take it. So I left
the best for lax.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Have you discussed it since? I mean, sometimes there's the
coming out conversation and then things get kind of shelled
or ignored or dismissed. Has it been discussed.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Since with her it has actually, so when she got
back from the vacation here, it was as if she
flipped a switch and everything she said was null and void.
She tried to talk me out of it, as if
it was something that one could be talked out of.
She told me that I need to be true to
(18:06):
who I am, in which case I responded, I'm trying
to be who I really am. She asked why I
had to alter my body with hormones, why I have
to look differently, ultimately pointing out that my biological makeup
isn't going to ever be the way that I really
truly want it to be. So hearing all of that
(18:30):
made me frustrated at first, because these would have been
things that I wanted to discuss face to face. Again,
she is deaf, so all of this is being portrayed
through text messages, which tone can be interpreted differently out
of context, and I really didn't want to make her
feel as though I was attacking her or anything. But
(18:54):
on the other hand, I felt very attacked and very
lied to. I felt like she was saying that because
she was in front of me, not because she was
really accepting and really loved me and really didn't want
me to feel alienated.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
You know, what happens sometimes with parents in these situations
is that when she's face to face with you, she
is in that moment living how much she loves you
and how much she cares about you. And I believe
that what comes out in those moments can be more
authentic because she's with you. This is how she truly
feels about you. Yes, I want you to be happy.
(19:30):
But then when she goes home and you're not in
front of her, then she deals with the consequences of
having to deal with telling the people around her and
the community and the family knowing, and what feedback she
will get from that, and she starts to think about
herself perhaps and what she's going to say to people,
how she's going to feel, And then she takes a
step back. And I think what's important to remember is
(19:52):
that you've had many, many years to process this, and
she needs a little bit of time to go through
that process as well. She's hearing this for the first time,
even though she's suspected that's not the same as really
processing it.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I can understand why you feel hurt, because what you
want from your parent is I'm really happy for you
that you are finally going to get to live in
the way that it's true to you, right, and now
you get to live who you actually are. She does
have some catching up to do it, but at the
same time, there's this ticking clock of this wedding, and
(20:29):
so I wonder how your sisters since you told them first,
how did your sisters react? Who did you tell first,
and how did those conversations.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Go and when.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah, so honestly, this was the second time that I've
come out to my family. I identified for the first
twenty eight years of my life as a lesbian, So
the first time around, Tina was the most accepting, and
she was also the one that was like, yeah, I know,
it's okay. It's okay that you finally are okay with it.
(21:04):
That meant the world to me. That made me feel
exactly how I feel she intended to make me feel. Sarah,
on the other hand, was very surprised, which it made
me giggle. It was funny because I'm like, you know
me better than anyone. We've shared a room for almost
twenty years together, and this is catching you off guard.
But sure, all very accepting about coming out as gay
(21:28):
in high school The second time was harder for me,
but I feel like they were both very very accepting,
very supportive, and encouraging, actually very encouraging.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You came out to Sarah and Tatino? When was there
second time?
Speaker 4 (21:48):
A month ago?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Okay, so very recent, very recent. Yeah, I wanted to
tell them before I actually started my hormone replacement therapy.
I wanted to clear the air so everybody would be
on the same page. I anticipated needing a lot of support,
so I wanted everybody to be caught up in well aware.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Can I ask you who else is there in your
life that gives you support?
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Plot twist? My father is actually a huge part of
my life now.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
That is a blood twist.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Yeah. I've always considered myself like a well from before
this point, a daddy's girl, right. I am very much
my father's son. I've connected through my childhood, even through
all of the horrible things that I've endured because of him,
our relationship now is truly better than ever when I
(22:42):
came out to him. My father is very open minded.
When I first told him that I have always felt
like his son, he responded to that by saying, I've
always felt you were my son, and he normalized it
and made me feel as though this was a realization
that maybe I was just coming to but he had
thought about before. But he treated me with nothing but
(23:06):
respect and love and support. And it really caught me
off guard because I thought the reactions between my mother
and father would have been crisscrossed if you would have
asked me who was going to react? Which way?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Can you fill us in on what happened? So once
you moved out and there was this abuse going on,
how did you reconcile with your father after that?
Speaker 4 (23:31):
There was a lot of time that I didn't. There
was a lot of time that I would see him
and I would give him the silent treatment and the
cold shoulder. Christmas would come and go, my Birthday would
come and go, and I would have no contact with him, nothing,
And those were really what hurt me. So mostly I
responded by not speaking to him and kind of just
(23:54):
pushing him further away.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Did you ever have a conversation as you got older
about the abuse and did he ever take responsibility for it?
Speaker 4 (24:04):
I actually did the last time that he was here.
My whole family still resides in Florida, So he came
up here and We had been great the entire time
that he was here, but plans got mixed up because
of COVID and my mother was supposed to come up
as well, and my father was still here, so they
(24:26):
went ahead. The plan was that my father was going
to leave and before my mother came, so there was
going to be no overlap. Unbeknownst to me, they went
ahead and made plans in which my mother was now
coming up while my father was still here, and then
they were going to drive back to Florida together while
(24:46):
staying at my house for another seven days. Now, I
work an overnight job, so I tend to leave my
house at six pm and I don't get home until
around five thirty six am. So those feelings started to
resonate with me. Oh my gosh, my parents are going
to be alone in my house while I'm not there,
(25:09):
and all the memories started flooding back. Everything started making
me anxious, and I didn't feel like I really had
a say in it at all until I really sat
with my feelings and spoke to both of my sisters, like,
why are our parents acting like this is normal that
(25:30):
they're going to come and stay with me? That would
be perfectly normal if they were a couple and they
were still together, and you know, our childhood didn't happen.
But I feel like I was being extremely gaslighted into
thinking that this was not only okay but normal. I
hate to use that word safe. Safe is better?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, absolutely, So clearly they had been in touch and
had some kind of understanding. Were you aware of that?
Speaker 4 (25:57):
When I addressed my mother, she told me your father
and I have had a relationship for the past two years.
We are friends, we know where we stand with each other.
And then she went on to say during the hurricanes,
he stayed at the house with me. Now, that was
more than I really needed to hear. I appreciate that
(26:18):
they have been honest throughout this entire thing, but it
didn't ease any of my anxiety or make me feel
safe at all.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
So what happened when you addressed it? Did that give
you an opening to have a conversation about the abuse
that had happened.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
When I told my mother, I don't feel okay with this,
it was very what we told you about this, Well
you were fine about this, Well, why is it a
big deal now? And I persisted to tell her it
doesn't make me feel okay, I've been very anxious, and
then that led to just inevitably my father being like,
what's going on? You don't want your mother to come
(26:55):
up here, very innocently, very you know, testing the waters,
and that was kind of just the last straw, I
would say. I went off on him in the sense
of saying, I'm I think my opening remark is I'm
finished calling the police. I'm finished doing that. I do
not want to do that again. And he was taken
(27:17):
back by it, and the ball started rolling, everything started
coming out. I've told him how everything he's done in
the past had manipulated the way that I turned out,
and maybe he didn't realize it because he wasn't around
to see the effects that he had then had on
my life. I even apologize halfway through it, saying, look,
(27:38):
I'm sorry to dump all of this on you, but
you have been gone for almost twenty years. You never
had to sit here and listen to what has happened
to me, and you never got to hear what you
did to me. I have thrown all of that on
mom for the past twenty eight years. She has heard
(27:58):
everything because she was there. You weren't there, And I
told him how it felt that I was abandoned and
my dad isn't a bad guy. I know the reason
that this all had occurred was due to heavy drug use.
And I told him I felt every day you had
a choice, and every day you walked right past your
(28:20):
family and you chose the lifestyle that you wanted. And
I told him how that made me feel. And honestly,
I think that is why we have a great relationship now.
I never had that cathartic release of look at what
you did.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
How did he respond?
Speaker 4 (28:40):
A few tears? He was really taken back. He was
very silent. I remember saying, do you have anything to say?
Because now I feel like I had just spilled my
heart out to somebody and then them just be like silent.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Was he able to talk to you about what had
happened and was he able to take responsibility?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
He did say sorry. He never touched on any subjects
of abuse or drug use or anything. It was just
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
So you've really been practicing being authentic over the past
couple of years, having you because you're laying it on
out there in terms of friends or a partner, other
other people in your life who support you.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Unfortunately, I moved up here out fresh out off of
a breakup. Our plans were to move here together, and
then I was dumped and I continued on and I said, okay, well,
this is the plan that I had been working towards.
I'm just going to go ahead and do it myself.
Then so I packed up and moved out here, and
(29:55):
not too long ago, I was contacted again and I
was given the whole I'm so sorry. I really messed up.
I'd really like to try again. I'm going to move
up there. Can we work this out? And me, being
the one that never lost the love in the first place,
was like, of course, yeah, I've been working on myself
(30:16):
for the past year. I'm not the same person. I'm
sure you're not the same person. But if it's true,
it'll work. And we started to see each other, and
then when I came out as transgender, she told me
that this wasn't what she wanted, and then that was
the last time we spoke.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
I'm sorry to hear that. Are you in touch with
any other transgender people? In terms of getting support through this.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Process, I've heavily relied on social media to allow me
to have visibility into this community. But I can't say
that I have one in person, real life friend that
I see or talk to. Just people that are visible
for other people that can't be that want to provide
(31:03):
information and support, and YouTube has really been a life
saving tool for me for just any type of information
or education.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Really, yeah, I think about when I'm hearing all of this,
is how difficult your childhood was, and how you were
so resilient throughout all of this, and at the same
time you were struggling with this knowledge, this place of
(31:36):
knowing in yourself that you are male, and so there's
something in you that has been so able, even with
this last breakup, to say this is who I am.
And so when I fast forward to the wedding and
I think about the trouble you're having, You've been through
so much and gotten through so much and stayed true
to yourself. So let's talk a little bit about why
(31:58):
this wedding makes it so hard for you to stay
true to yourself.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
As much as my family is very accepting, I think
that this issue really shows that people can be accepting
and supportive, but I think once that person is involved
in their inner sphere, that is where the really it
shows that they aren't as accepting as they think they are. Like,
(32:26):
my mother will go march for gay rights and all
of these things, but you know, as soon as her
son comes out to her that he is part of
the transgender community, that's where issues start arising. And then
it's like, Okay, well maybe you're not as accepting as
you think that you are. And I think that that
is showing a little bit with my sister, and I
(32:47):
don't want to hurt her feelings by saying that she's
not accepting as she may think she is. I just
think that she has traditional values and there's absolutely nothing
wrong with that. I just think it's harder for me
to fit those traditional values and still be true to myself.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So let me ask you this in your mind, and
what would it look like to be true to yourself
at Sarah's wedding.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
So I am her maid of honor, so I know
that I'm going to be at her side. What would
make me feel comfortable would be wearing men's formal wear.
The day of her wedding, I will be taking my
seventh testosterone shot, So my mind is somewhere, and then
(33:38):
my outer appearance is I feel is being stuffed back
into a closet.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Well, so you're saying you want to wear men's formal wear.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Right, I mean she pointed out that the mother of
the bride and the grandmother of the bride are usually
in a pants suit or you know, something different than
a formal gown. And even that I would feel a
little bit less out of place. I would feel a
little bit more aligned if I was wearing anything, honestly,
(34:10):
other than address.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Didn't Sarah offer to Didn't she say to you one
of the options was that you could wear what the
men are wearing.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Yeah, so I think that that was not a very
genuine option, and only because they are having a man
handstitch these beautiful Italian suits and they had to start
this process because they are being handmade so long ago.
(34:43):
She may have meant it genuinely, but in actuality, I
don't think there was any way of that truly happening.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
If there was a way to make it happen. Does
that excite you the idea of wearing this custom made suit?
Speaker 4 (34:56):
Honestly, it actually pushed me more towards okay, just conform
to this female appearance, because all I could think about
when she said that was standing next to a bunch
of cisgendered males that are going to look great in
their formal wear. And then you have me going through
(35:18):
my second puberty, only like six to seven weeks on testosterone,
still very female presenting, and I think that that would
do more harm to my mind than anything. I think
it would make me feel even worse out of place,
like I don't fit.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
So you want to wear men's formal wear, but you
don't want to wear something that's such a direct comparison
to those men.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
And I think standing on his side also, I was against,
and not because I don't like him. He's a great guy.
This is where I guess my values don't align with
traditional values, because in my mind, the perfect way this
wedding would go would be me wearing this nice suit
or blazer or whatever, matching her standing on her side.
(36:06):
Whereas she sees it as okay, if you want to
be male presenting, stand on the male side. If you
want to be female presenting, stand on my side, which
is fine, it's just more traditional, whereas an I could
see me very well wearing men's formal wear but standing
on her side.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Have you had a discussion with her about this whole
idea of gender being non binary, and that she's actually
asking you to revert to one or the other, and
your feeding is I would like to do something that's
a little bit more in the middle, stand on your side,
but where something that has a jacket to it or
(36:43):
something like that. Have you had that discussion with her
so she can connect it not just to the visuals
of the wedding, but to the feelings you have about
gender and about yourself and what you want to present
to the world.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Yeah. So in the very first conversation we spoke about this,
there was a point in the conversation where we were
discussing me wearing something other than the dress that I
already bought. We already have it. I mentioned wearing the
same color but something different, and her response, which I
took as the most authentic, raw emotion of how she
(37:21):
truly felt, was her saying, I don't want my photos
to look weird. And once she said that, I felt
something in me shut down. I was like, Okay, nope,
I'm not doing this. I don't want her to feel
any type of way. This is her special day. I
will choke down any feelings I have. I can do
this one thing for her, and I knew that no
(37:42):
matter how many times if she were to say I
take it back or I don't think photos would look weird,
I knew that that was how she truly felt. And
I was like, it's over in my mind. I'm going
to do this for her. She told me how she really.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Feels, is that where you are right now when you're
thinking yes.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Because the second time that we spoke about it, where
I was kind of just trying to talk to her
about it, she, after all, is my best friend. And
I went to the depths of saying, you know, I
haven't been shaving my legs or shaving under my arms,
and I was explaining to her how it felt so relieving.
(38:21):
I was finally able to express how I feel. Things
were actually starting to align, and I told her, if
this may sound very trivial to you, but I don't
want to shave, and of course I'm going to need to.
I mean not of course, but I guess I would
be expected to. And I was telling her how those
little things may not mean much at face value, but
(38:44):
they really did mean something to me. At that time,
she was like flustered again, and I feel bad because
I know that this was all just another issue that
she had to deal with, the makeup people, canceling, the
hair people. You know, it's a crazy time to have
a wedding. So when I brought it back up, I
think that's where some of the frustration went, because she's like, great,
(39:06):
another thing I have to deal with.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
So was there any closure on that? Did she have
what you would do in that regard?
Speaker 4 (39:13):
I think she realized that she was being a bit harsh,
that she was maybe coming across as unwilling to move
her position or look for a solution, And after leaving
the conversation like that, giving herself time to reflect, I
then got a text message later at work saying, look,
(39:33):
I'm really sorry if you feel like I'm not supporting you.
I want you to be happy, and I know you're
going along with this because you want me to be happy.
And then she followed that up by saying, let's fix this,
let's do something about this. But I see where she's
going with it, and I really just think that I
(39:54):
need to just do this for her.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
What do you mean you see where she's going with it.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
I think she wants me to know that she would
maybe sit with some uncomfortable feelings that she had if
I were to, Okay, yeah, let's change it up now,
which I don't feel like I can do because of
time constraints, and just truly knowing that she wouldn't be
as happy with her photos.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
She might not be as happy with her photos if
she thought you weren't happy in them.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
And that's another thing. She was saying. She doesn't want
her photos to look weird. And what's going through my
head is, I'm never gonna want to look at those
photos because it's not going to be who I am.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
So when she said to you, let's fix this, have
you given any thought to what that might be on
urine that would make you feel less dysphoric? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (40:49):
Absolutely. I did suggest that maybe after the ceremony I
could change and then wear something that involves pants as
opposed to the dress, and she went for that, and
she said, of course, whatever you want. And I guess
that has kind of just been the middle ground that
we're leaving there. I don't know if I actually will
(41:13):
end up going to change. I guess I'm kind of
waiting to really see how I feel in it.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I'm thinking about how it was only a month ago
that you revealed that you were transitioning, And with weddings,
there's a lot of planning that takes months and months
and months, and so I'm just curious to know if
you thought about that while she was planning the wedding,
(41:43):
while all this was going on, how you thought about
the timing of that and what you thought would be
realistic given the tight timing.
Speaker 4 (41:53):
So, originally the wedding was supposed to take place in
April pre COVID, so I thought I wouldn't even come
out until after the wedding was already finished, and then
it being pushed back presented obviously more problems. When I
did initially come out to Sarah, I told her, I
(42:14):
can wait to even begin my transition until after your wedding,
if that would make you feel better, make anybody feel better.
I was a little bit worried about how his family
might react, and she was quick to say, absolutely not.
(42:34):
You've waited long enough. You do what you want to do,
and it's okay.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Both of you are sort of saying we want to
make sure the other person is happy, and yet you
are holding on to those words about the photos that
I think she's come around in a lot of ways
where maybe in a perfect world for her, she would
like her photos to look a certain way, But she
(43:02):
also says I love you so much and I want
you to be happy, and I want you to be
who you really are. And yet you're saying, yeah, I'll
just wear the dress to make her happy.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
Do you see?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
So it's almost like you're putting yourself in a prison
that you're not actually in.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
I agree.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
What stands out for me is how much you and
Sarah love each other. You've been through this really difficult
traumatic childhood. You shared the room, you were there for
having to call the police. You clearly really love each other.
And as Laurie was saying, she wants you to be
happy and you want her to be happy. You really
(43:43):
have done such a remarkable job of being authentic and
speaking your truth and really telling people how you feel
and who you are over these past years. And I
think there has to be elements of that in this
wedding where you feel authentic to you. But when you say, well,
(44:03):
I'll do it for her, that is you not giving
yourself the authenticity have to be pictures you can look
at and be happy.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
I mean, when Tina got married. I wore a dress,
and I love those pictures. I think maybe I'm a
very anxiety written person. Maybe I am just letting my
thoughts get the better of me, and that when I
do see myself in that dress, and when I do
see how happy my sister is, maybe I don't feel
(44:33):
the way that I anticipate that I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
You know what, Liam, I hear you talking yourself out
of your truth. And when you say that you were
happy looking at the pictures at Tina's wedding, you were
in a different place. Yeah, And this is where you
are now, and all of you siblings have gone through
(44:58):
so much together, and here's a really happy occasion. And
what's so happy about it is that your sister is saying, Look,
I'm human. I have reactions to this thing. You are human,
You have reactions to things. But in the end, we
always come back to we love each other and we
want each of us to be true to ourselves. And
(45:20):
you keep fighting that she has come back to you
multiple times. You've recounted in this conversation how many times
she has come back to you and said, I want
to fix this, I want to make it right. I
want you to be comfortable and every time you argue
with it, and so this conversation with her just gets
prolonged and it becomes almost an argument where you're arguing
(45:40):
against yourself, and then she has to be the person
who is arguing on your behalf. And I think what's
happening is you're externalizing an internal argument. So you're making
this internal argument that you're having with yourself about well,
how public should.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
I be about this?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
And how do I feel about being public about this
in front of my family, in front of all of
these people. And you may have some fear around that,
but don't make Sarah the bad guy.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
In this, because she's not right.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
So we're thinking about your situation and we have two
pieces of advice that we'd like you to try this week.
And the first is that we would like you to
have a different conversation with Sarah than the one that
is getting nowhere. This just keeps going back and forth,
and that is for you to say to Sarah, I
(46:40):
am so excited for your big day. I am so
excited for this new chapter of your life, and I
want it to be everything that you want it to be.
And the reason that it's hard for me to either
wear a bridesmaid dress or to wear men's formal wear.
Is because I am transitioning and I am in the
middle right now, and I would like to go to
(47:02):
your wedding in a way that reflects that middle ground
where I actually am in life. And you have been
so gracious and supportive and I so appreciate that, and
I would like to figure out with you what would
make you comfortable that I can wear that reflects the
(47:22):
actual place that I am right now, which is in
that middle ground. And you talk about colors, and you
talk about style, and you talk about whatever it is,
and by the end of that conversation, you say, this
is the tailor we have to call, this is the
thing we're going to order, and you get that order
in by next week. Okay, So none of this back
(47:46):
and forth, none of this is what do we do?
And oh no, she's going to be displeased. Oh no,
then she thinks, so I'm going to be displeased. I
think you both actually agree. You've already resolved this. You're
not taking away anything from her day. The spotlight is
on her and you're in the middle, and you want
to wear something that reflects that. I think you're both
in agreement on that, So now you just have to
(48:06):
execute that. So instead of having this internal argument with
yourself that you're now externalizing to Sarah, you can say,
wait a minute, I need to look at why this
is so hard for me to accept her offer.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Laurie Setti that you're having this argument in your own
head that you're then externalizing with Sarah. I think that's
primarily because you don't have other trans people to talk
to about very specific situations. You're on a journey that's
a marathon, it's not a sprint, and you really need
(48:43):
to have people who've been through it, who understand it,
who are going through it, that you can talk to
and you can share some of these feelings so that
you can get clear in your head that what you
feel is completely valid and legitimate and important. So the
(49:03):
second part of the advice we're giving you that we'd
like you to do this week is to find some
kind of trans support group where you're talking about these
things you need to have around you. People who really
truly get you from experience, are not just from love,
which is what you have right now, and that's great,
(49:24):
by the way. So those are the two things. How
do you feel about doing those things.
Speaker 4 (49:30):
I've actually found a group that meets every other Sunday
with a focus on the transgender community. I just have
not yet made it to a meeting just because of
work constraints. But it is worth it to take a
day off of work to make this happen and to
get the support of people in my shoes. And it
(49:52):
really pained me to hear the first bit of advice
because I'm realizing that I did not say any of
those things. I'm so happy for you. I'm so excited
for your big day, and I really am thrilled for
her and I am excited for her, and it makes
me sad that I haven't a vocal that yet. So
I think both bits are very doable and I think
(50:15):
this will definitely get us past, like you said, this
back and forth of really not getting anything done.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
And it will be helpful to hear it too, because
there's so much stress before a wedding, and to say, listen,
I think this got lost in all of the logistics.
I just want to let you know that I am
so excited you found this great person and I hope
to find a great person, and that you are there,
just as she has supported you, you are there to
(50:45):
support her that day and just say it's been hard
for me to accept your support because I'm so worried
about your feelings and I realize that not accepting your support,
I'm actually making it harder for you.
Speaker 4 (50:57):
Yeah. Absolutely, well, we wish you luck with this this week.
Thank you guys, appreciate it so much.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
What I really liked about Liam was that he was
so resilient. He had been through so much in his life,
and yet at every turn he was able to stay
true to himself to get to the point where he
got to today. And I think there's still a part
of him, because this is so new that he's gone public,
(51:33):
that isn't so sure about how to navigate this. And
I think because he's been so resilient, he thinks he
should just know how to do this. And that's why
it's so important for him to be able to talk
to other people and have some community around him.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
I think what's blocking him a little bit is that
he loves his sisters so much and his mom, and
he's been able to forgive his dad, and he was
able to forgive is from a partner and try again.
Is so empathetic that I think that that's what's bloging him.
He's thinking a little too much of other people's feelings
(52:08):
and not prayer to himself quite enough, and being on
the path that he's on will help him find balance
between his own needs and the feelings of the people
around him.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
You're listening to Dear Therapist from My Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a quick break.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
So, Laurie, we heard from Liam. Let's hear what happened.
Speaker 4 (52:45):
Hi Laurie. Hi guy. So I spoke with Sarah one
last time, and we've come to the conclusion that I
will wear the dress throughout the ceremony and after the
ceremony when we all go to sit down to eat
and then dance later, I'm going to change into a
really nice mauve color blazer with just some nice pants
(53:08):
and a nice shirt underneath. That way, I can also
get a bunch of photos in that outfit that I
feel more comfortable in, and also my sister can get
her ceremonial pictures how she likes it. And I did
try to go to an in person support group, but
it does look like the COVID restrictions are still a
(53:30):
little too strict to have those in person meetings. I
did contact the group and they did say that they
do think that they'll be open soon, but I am
continuing to look for a virtual support group until I
can make those meetings. So again, I just wanted to
thank you guys so much for listening and sharing my
story and providing me with some really great advice. So
(53:51):
thank you guys so much.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
I'm really glad that Liam talked to Sarah. I remember
that one of the things we wanted him to get
across to her was how excited he is for her wedding,
and I think that that somehow maybe got lost in here,
even though there's so much love between the two of them,
(54:15):
and so we didn't hear from Liam. Whether that happened,
I don't know. If it's just hard for the two
of them to communicate because of the discomfort they're having
around talking about something that's hard for both of them.
And this might be hard for Sarah in ways that
they haven't been able to talk about, or Sarah hasn't
been able to talk about for fear of hurting Liam's feelings.
(54:38):
So I'm glad they came to a compromise. I'm not
convinced that the sentiment that we hoped Liam would get
across happen. And I also think it's very common that
something very concrete like a wedding becomes the focus of
a deeper conversation that needs to be had, and so
(55:00):
this just happened last month. Everybody is all of a
sudden talking about, Okay, Liam is transitioning. What does that
mean for how is going to be at the wedding?
And that's one conversation, but it opens the door for
the many conversations that are going to happen after this.
Speaker 3 (55:20):
I completely agree. The one great service this wedding did
is it forced him to have several conversations about Liam's transitioning,
which meant that in the early stages, they already established
this is something we're going to be able to talk about,
we're going to need to talk about, and they already
established that president which will be so valuable going forward
(55:41):
with the process for Liam especially, but for his sisters
and family as well.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
It's great that Liam is looking into local support groups
because it's really important for him to be able to
talk with other people who are going through what he's
going through. I think Liam is setting the stage for
creating the kind of support around him that will make
this process go as smoothly as possible for him.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Yeah, it's going to be an exciting time ahead for Liam. Hey,
fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice from
the podcast in your own life, send us a quick
voice memo to Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell
us about it. We may include it in a future show.
(56:25):
Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show,
please take a moment to rate and review it.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (56:42):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small, email us
at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Our executive producers, Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by
Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairygodmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 3 (57:06):
Next week we'll talk to a mother trying to forge
a more open line of communication with her adult children
after years of turmoil.
Speaker 5 (57:13):
I don't want to be a wedge between him and
his wife. I want them to figure it out. And
so I think part of what's been holding me back
is saying I don't want to be in charge of
my children making personal decisions on such a huge scale
because of a comment I might have made.
Speaker 1 (57:31):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Hey, fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy Collumn for TED. And this
is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
This week, a trans man deals with family pushback as
he begins transitioning right before his sister's wedding.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
My mother will go march for gay rights and all
of these things. But you know, as soon as her
son comes out to her that he is part of
the transgender community, that's where issues start arising. And then
it's like, Okay, well, maybe you're not as accepting as
you think that you are.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice,
and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a
letter you are agreeing to. Let iHeartMedia use it in
(03:28):
partner and full and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hey Laurie, Hey guy, Well this week
our letter is time sensitive.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Oh well, in that case, let's get right to it.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Indeed, let's do that. Dear therapists, I come to you
both begging for help on a tough issue I'm facing.
Last month, I came out to my family as transgender
and began my hormone replacement therapy in the lengthy conversion
of female to male. My sister is getting married, and
because of COVID, the wedding was postponed for months. The
(04:03):
wedding was originally planned for April and now will commence
next month. I'm serving as my sister's maid of honor,
and I'm expected to wear a dress and make up.
I've suffered from body dysphoria since a young age, constantly
covering up my body when swimming, dressing more masculine, and
it has been getting worse with the wedding drawing closer.
(04:24):
Finally allowing myself to wear what I feel comfortable in
has really made me so much happier, and I feel
like this wedding is throwing me back into the old discord.
I spoke to my sister about alternative options, but she
gave me an ultimatum. Wear the dress and stand on
her side, or wear the same thing as the men
and stand on his side standing next to a slough
(04:45):
of since gendered males in nice formal wear will only
make my body dysphoria worse. I've spoken to my other
sister about the matter, but she does not know what
to do or have any suggestions besides not being in
the wedding altogether. Please let me know if you have
any advice or even something I can do to try
and ease my anxiety about this day coming soon. The
(05:05):
plane at the moment is to endure the mental depression
and to just do this one thing for my sister,
even though it's really taking a toll on me. Liam.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
This is a really tough situation for Liam, and it's
especially hard because I think that he's in uncharted territory
and I think that his family has just gotten this
news and they are trying to be supportive, but Liam
(05:36):
is not feeling supported, and it's hard for them to
communicate about what would make Liam feel supported.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
We are at a place now in society where we're
recognizing that gender is not binary. And here Liam is
faced with a binary choice when he really doesn't want
to have to make a binary choice one way or
the other at the moment. And so there's this very
literal translation of where society is in terms of coming
to terms with the fluidity of gender.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I think you're right that this really underlines how aey
has not caught up. And you can see that on
the smaller level within families where people say this is
who I am and there are no rules, people don't
know what to do. And I think that we need
to help Liam to get his voice heard.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Here, let's go talk to him. You're listening to Deo
Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break.
I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is
Deo Therapist.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
So Hi Liam, Hi, Thank you guys so much for having.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Me, Thank you so much for coming on. So Liam,
we know this was time sensitive. Tell us if there's
been any developments since you wrote your letter.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Yeah, absolutely so. Initially, upon touching on this subject, I
feel as though I reached a point where I kind
of gave in to, yeah, I will go with what
you truly want, and then we kind of left it,
and I started to talk to my other sister, Tina,
(07:21):
and she really had no advice on where to go.
It was still bothering me. And then it just so
happened that my sister Sarah called, and it kind of
seemed like, oh, she called, let me just lightly bring
the subject back up, and at the mere mention of
this subject, she got very defensive and very touchy. I
(07:43):
reiterated that I was just trying to have a conversation,
but it was very clear her frustration about it. It
was I thought we dealt with it already. I thought
we had discussed what we were doing. So I was
met with a lot of emotion.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So Sarah's the one who's getting married, right, and what
is the birth order?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Tina is the oldest, She's about seven years my senior,
and then Sarah's two years my senior, and then I'm
the youngest.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Okay, And before this wedding stuff came up, and before
you told them that you were transitioning, what was your
relationship like with both of your sisters.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
We had a bit of a rocky childhood, so we
got very close, very quickly. I was closer with Sarah
because we shared a room for majority of our childhood.
I mean, we've always been really close. I don't think
there's a day that I go without speaking to both
of them.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Tell us about the rockiness of the childhood.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
We had abusive parents, so we stuck together through a
lot of hard times. We constantly were ripped out of
our home, stayed with other people. Some of our friends
couldn't know where we lived, so that was kind of hard.
We kind of looked at Tina like the mother sometimes,
(09:12):
if you will. She did a lot because she was
the oldest. I think everything affected her a little bit differently.
She kind of took on this leadership role and me
and Sarah kind of were waiting on her word, doing
what she thought would be best.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
When you say you were ripped from your home, do
you mean that child services took you out of the home.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
I don't want to say child services ever came, but
family members would come. My aunt would come and grab
us and we'd stay at her house. A lot of
my best friends in school, they weren't allowed to know
whose house we were staying at, just in case it
were to get back to my father, but we still
went to the same school, so he was able to come,
and he had lunch with me a couple times, so
(09:57):
that I feel like alienated me a little bit because
I would be sitting at the lunch table with my
father crying at the end, while the rest of my
class was happy eating lunch, and they're like, why is
why is his dad coming and sitting with them? And
all they do is cry.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Oh wow, can you Can you tell us a little
bit about your parents and what might have been going
on with them and what kind of abuse you had
to endure.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
The physical abuse was towards my mother. We witnessed it
and heard it a lot. We often were the ones
that had to call the cops, so that was terrifying.
We also had family members that would stop us from
calling the cops and tell us to go back in
our room and everything was fine, So then we would
(10:46):
have to crawl on the floor to get to the
phone to call for help. We were in a really
underdeveloped neighborhood, so it wasn't like we could run to
the neighbor's house and go, you know, ask for help
or anything like that, So that kind of banded us
all together. I feel like, in unfortunate ways.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
There were other family members living in the home. They
were just visiting so of this and then told you
not to intervene.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
They would be visiting. My maternal grandmother was majority of
the time the one to say, put the phone down,
go to your room. They're having a discussion.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
You a maternal grandmother, No.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
I'm sorry, I think I misspoke my paternal that makes
my grandmother. And then because of that going on, my
then maternal grandmother came and stayed with us, kind of
acting like a guard dog almost to make sure that
none of that was going on with her daughter being involved.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
And at what point did you leave the home the.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Final time that we left and did not come back,
I was seven, so that would make Sarah nine and
Tina must have been around fourteen.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And where did you go? What happened?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
We went to one of my aunt's houses. It wasn't
the same town, it wasn't too inconvenient, but that was
one of the addresses that I wasn't allowed to have
friends over, and we kind of all crammed in this
two bedroom house and tried to live as completely normal
as everything was with your mom with my mother, when.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Did the body dysphoria start?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Honestly, when I was speaking to my mom about it
the first time. The way that I introduced the topic was,
do you remember when I was about five and every
time I would go in the pool, I would wear
this giant T shirt. Numerous times it was the reason
that I would be drowning, where it was like, why
(12:48):
do you wear that? That's not going to help you.
You know, wearing a bathing suit would be easier for
you to swim in. So I remember from a young
age I was constantly covering myself when I was going
in the pool. Also, I mean just dressing in general.
I was always I was very famous for wearing soccer
shorts to school, the same boyish outfits, if you will.
(13:09):
So I would say, as young as I can remember,
around like five or six, I was tending to cover up.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
How old are you now, Liam, oh? Eight twenty eight?
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
So what was it about the last maybe year when
you decided you were ready to transition?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
I think the biggest factors that allowed me to be
true to myself was that I just bought my first
house this year, so I have a perfectly safe environment
I have a great job that I work for amazing
people that don't treat me any different. They don't make
me feel as though I'm jeopardizing my job by being honest.
(13:57):
So really those main things is just having my shelter
that I don't have to worry about, and having my
job that isn't going to terminate me for any of
these reasons.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
When did you first start to realize that you were
a transgender and when did you come out and how
did that go?
Speaker 4 (14:16):
I think I've always really known. I was always wishing
on my birthday candles that I was a boy for
as long as I can remember. I thought that it
was something that nothing could be done. I just had
to deal with it. I had to suppress it. I
had to come to terms with this is the way
(14:39):
I was born, this is the way I'm going to die.
There's really nothing you can do about it. But really
seriously got into the idea of transitioning back in twenty fourteen.
As soon as I got out of college. I went
to a big university, so it was very diverse. I
went to a lot of the LGBTQ community meetings, met
(15:00):
a lot of people through that, and twenty fourteen, I
spoke to one friend about it, one person I confided
in and really rest my true feelings, and he was great,
He was amazing, and he encouraged me to take the
next step. I set up all of the appointments that
I needed to with the doctors, and to be honest,
(15:22):
at the last second, I just did not go to
any of them. At the time, when I moved back
from college, I was living with my mother again, regrouping
on where to go now. I just finished college. What
kind of career am I going into? And I think
by that pressure it kind of teared me from taking
(15:42):
this route any sooner.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
When you say that pressure, you mean you came home
from college, you told your mom and she didn't react.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Well, I didn't tell anybody back in twenty fourteen except
that one friend. The one friend. By skipping those appointments,
I think that was me weaseling out of actually addressing
the issue and talking about it with any of my
famis family. So I recently just came out to her
(16:13):
last month, and she is legally deaf. She relies heavily
on reading lips. We have a house phone that when
you call it will type the dialogue, so that she
can read it back. So I actually had her come
and stay with me, and I wanted to have this
(16:34):
conversation face to face with her.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
How did that conversation go?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
So I explained to her about the body dysporias since
I was young, you know, the bathing suit, the covering up.
I kind of was allowing her to connect her own
dots there. And as soon as I said the words
like I'm going to transition, the first thing that she
said was I knew you were going to say that.
(17:02):
In that moment, she told me everything that I did
want to hear. I still love you. I will never
cut you out of the family or stop talking to
you or stop loving you. And I felt very relieved
and very happy at that time. She was actually the
last person that I told even though I have a
(17:22):
great relationship with her. It was the hardest because she
was brought up very Catholic and I just was very
unsure of how she would take it. So I left
the best for lax.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Have you discussed it since? I mean, sometimes there's the
coming out conversation and then things get kind of shelled
or ignored or dismissed. Has it been discussed.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Since with her it has actually, so when she got
back from the vacation here, it was as if she
flipped a switch and everything she said was null and void.
She tried to talk me out of it, as if
it was something that one could be talked out of.
She told me that I need to be true to
(18:06):
who I am, in which case I responded, I'm trying
to be who I really am. She asked why I
had to alter my body with hormones, why I have
to look differently, ultimately pointing out that my biological makeup
isn't going to ever be the way that I really
truly want it to be. So hearing all of that
(18:30):
made me frustrated at first, because these would have been
things that I wanted to discuss face to face. Again,
she is deaf, so all of this is being portrayed
through text messages, which tone can be interpreted differently out
of context, and I really didn't want to make her
feel as though I was attacking her or anything. But
(18:54):
on the other hand, I felt very attacked and very
lied to. I felt like she was saying that because
she was in front of me, not because she was
really accepting and really loved me and really didn't want
me to feel alienated.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
You know, what happens sometimes with parents in these situations
is that when she's face to face with you, she
is in that moment living how much she loves you
and how much she cares about you. And I believe
that what comes out in those moments can be more
authentic because she's with you. This is how she truly
feels about you. Yes, I want you to be happy.
(19:30):
But then when she goes home and you're not in
front of her, then she deals with the consequences of
having to deal with telling the people around her and
the community and the family knowing, and what feedback she
will get from that, and she starts to think about
herself perhaps and what she's going to say to people,
how she's going to feel, And then she takes a
step back. And I think what's important to remember is
(19:52):
that you've had many, many years to process this, and
she needs a little bit of time to go through
that process as well. She's hearing this for the first time,
even though she's suspected that's not the same as really
processing it.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I can understand why you feel hurt, because what you
want from your parent is I'm really happy for you
that you are finally going to get to live in
the way that it's true to you, right, and now
you get to live who you actually are. She does
have some catching up to do it, but at the
same time, there's this ticking clock of this wedding, and
(20:29):
so I wonder how your sisters since you told them first,
how did your sisters react? Who did you tell first,
and how did those conversations.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Go and when.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah, so honestly, this was the second time that I've
come out to my family. I identified for the first
twenty eight years of my life as a lesbian, So
the first time around, Tina was the most accepting, and
she was also the one that was like, yeah, I know,
it's okay. It's okay that you finally are okay with it.
(21:04):
That meant the world to me. That made me feel
exactly how I feel she intended to make me feel. Sarah,
on the other hand, was very surprised, which it made
me giggle. It was funny because I'm like, you know
me better than anyone. We've shared a room for almost
twenty years together, and this is catching you off guard.
But sure, all very accepting about coming out as gay
(21:28):
in high school The second time was harder for me,
but I feel like they were both very very accepting,
very supportive, and encouraging, actually very encouraging.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You came out to Sarah and Tatino? When was there
second time?
Speaker 4 (21:48):
A month ago?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Okay, so very recent, very recent. Yeah, I wanted to
tell them before I actually started my hormone replacement therapy.
I wanted to clear the air so everybody would be
on the same page. I anticipated needing a lot of support,
so I wanted everybody to be caught up in well aware.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Can I ask you who else is there in your
life that gives you support?
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Plot twist? My father is actually a huge part of
my life now.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
That is a blood twist.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Yeah. I've always considered myself like a well from before
this point, a daddy's girl, right. I am very much
my father's son. I've connected through my childhood, even through
all of the horrible things that I've endured because of him,
our relationship now is truly better than ever when I
(22:42):
came out to him. My father is very open minded.
When I first told him that I have always felt
like his son, he responded to that by saying, I've
always felt you were my son, and he normalized it
and made me feel as though this was a realization
that maybe I was just coming to but he had
thought about before. But he treated me with nothing but
(23:06):
respect and love and support. And it really caught me
off guard because I thought the reactions between my mother
and father would have been crisscrossed if you would have
asked me who was going to react? Which way?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Can you fill us in on what happened? So once
you moved out and there was this abuse going on,
how did you reconcile with your father after that?
Speaker 4 (23:31):
There was a lot of time that I didn't. There
was a lot of time that I would see him
and I would give him the silent treatment and the
cold shoulder. Christmas would come and go, my Birthday would
come and go, and I would have no contact with him, nothing,
And those were really what hurt me. So mostly I
responded by not speaking to him and kind of just
(23:54):
pushing him further away.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Did you ever have a conversation as you got older
about the abuse and did he ever take responsibility for it?
Speaker 4 (24:04):
I actually did the last time that he was here.
My whole family still resides in Florida, So he came
up here and We had been great the entire time
that he was here, but plans got mixed up because
of COVID and my mother was supposed to come up
as well, and my father was still here, so they
(24:26):
went ahead. The plan was that my father was going
to leave and before my mother came, so there was
going to be no overlap. Unbeknownst to me, they went
ahead and made plans in which my mother was now
coming up while my father was still here, and then
they were going to drive back to Florida together while
(24:46):
staying at my house for another seven days. Now, I
work an overnight job, so I tend to leave my
house at six pm and I don't get home until
around five thirty six am. So those feelings started to
resonate with me. Oh my gosh, my parents are going
to be alone in my house while I'm not there,
(25:09):
and all the memories started flooding back. Everything started making
me anxious, and I didn't feel like I really had
a say in it at all until I really sat
with my feelings and spoke to both of my sisters, like,
why are our parents acting like this is normal that
(25:30):
they're going to come and stay with me? That would
be perfectly normal if they were a couple and they
were still together, and you know, our childhood didn't happen.
But I feel like I was being extremely gaslighted into
thinking that this was not only okay but normal. I
hate to use that word safe. Safe is better?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, absolutely, So clearly they had been in touch and
had some kind of understanding. Were you aware of that?
Speaker 4 (25:57):
When I addressed my mother, she told me your father
and I have had a relationship for the past two years.
We are friends, we know where we stand with each other.
And then she went on to say during the hurricanes,
he stayed at the house with me. Now, that was
more than I really needed to hear. I appreciate that
(26:18):
they have been honest throughout this entire thing, but it
didn't ease any of my anxiety or make me feel
safe at all.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
So what happened when you addressed it? Did that give
you an opening to have a conversation about the abuse
that had happened.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
When I told my mother, I don't feel okay with this,
it was very what we told you about this, Well
you were fine about this, Well, why is it a
big deal now? And I persisted to tell her it
doesn't make me feel okay, I've been very anxious, and
then that led to just inevitably my father being like,
what's going on? You don't want your mother to come
(26:55):
up here, very innocently, very you know, testing the waters,
and that was kind of just the last straw, I
would say. I went off on him in the sense
of saying, I'm I think my opening remark is I'm
finished calling the police. I'm finished doing that. I do
not want to do that again. And he was taken
(27:17):
back by it, and the ball started rolling, everything started
coming out. I've told him how everything he's done in
the past had manipulated the way that I turned out,
and maybe he didn't realize it because he wasn't around
to see the effects that he had then had on
my life. I even apologize halfway through it, saying, look,
(27:38):
I'm sorry to dump all of this on you, but
you have been gone for almost twenty years. You never
had to sit here and listen to what has happened
to me, and you never got to hear what you
did to me. I have thrown all of that on
mom for the past twenty eight years. She has heard
(27:58):
everything because she was there. You weren't there, And I
told him how it felt that I was abandoned and
my dad isn't a bad guy. I know the reason
that this all had occurred was due to heavy drug use.
And I told him I felt every day you had
a choice, and every day you walked right past your
(28:20):
family and you chose the lifestyle that you wanted. And
I told him how that made me feel. And honestly,
I think that is why we have a great relationship now.
I never had that cathartic release of look at what
you did.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
How did he respond?
Speaker 4 (28:40):
A few tears? He was really taken back. He was
very silent. I remember saying, do you have anything to say?
Because now I feel like I had just spilled my
heart out to somebody and then them just be like silent.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Was he able to talk to you about what had
happened and was he able to take responsibility?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
He did say sorry. He never touched on any subjects
of abuse or drug use or anything. It was just
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
So you've really been practicing being authentic over the past
couple of years, having you because you're laying it on
out there in terms of friends or a partner, other
other people in your life who support you.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Unfortunately, I moved up here out fresh out off of
a breakup. Our plans were to move here together, and
then I was dumped and I continued on and I said, okay, well,
this is the plan that I had been working towards.
I'm just going to go ahead and do it myself.
Then so I packed up and moved out here, and
(29:55):
not too long ago, I was contacted again and I
was given the whole I'm so sorry. I really messed up.
I'd really like to try again. I'm going to move
up there. Can we work this out? And me, being
the one that never lost the love in the first place,
was like, of course, yeah, I've been working on myself
(30:16):
for the past year. I'm not the same person. I'm
sure you're not the same person. But if it's true,
it'll work. And we started to see each other, and
then when I came out as transgender, she told me
that this wasn't what she wanted, and then that was
the last time we spoke.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
I'm sorry to hear that. Are you in touch with
any other transgender people? In terms of getting support through this.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Process, I've heavily relied on social media to allow me
to have visibility into this community. But I can't say
that I have one in person, real life friend that
I see or talk to. Just people that are visible
for other people that can't be that want to provide
(31:03):
information and support, and YouTube has really been a life
saving tool for me for just any type of information
or education.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Really, yeah, I think about when I'm hearing all of this,
is how difficult your childhood was, and how you were
so resilient throughout all of this, and at the same
time you were struggling with this knowledge, this place of
(31:36):
knowing in yourself that you are male, and so there's
something in you that has been so able, even with
this last breakup, to say this is who I am.
And so when I fast forward to the wedding and
I think about the trouble you're having, You've been through
so much and gotten through so much and stayed true
to yourself. So let's talk a little bit about why
(31:58):
this wedding makes it so hard for you to stay
true to yourself.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
As much as my family is very accepting, I think
that this issue really shows that people can be accepting
and supportive, but I think once that person is involved
in their inner sphere, that is where the really it
shows that they aren't as accepting as they think they are. Like,
(32:26):
my mother will go march for gay rights and all
of these things, but you know, as soon as her
son comes out to her that he is part of
the transgender community, that's where issues start arising. And then
it's like, Okay, well maybe you're not as accepting as
you think that you are. And I think that that
is showing a little bit with my sister, and I
(32:47):
don't want to hurt her feelings by saying that she's
not accepting as she may think she is. I just
think that she has traditional values and there's absolutely nothing
wrong with that. I just think it's harder for me
to fit those traditional values and still be true to myself.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So let me ask you this in your mind, and
what would it look like to be true to yourself
at Sarah's wedding.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
So I am her maid of honor, so I know
that I'm going to be at her side. What would
make me feel comfortable would be wearing men's formal wear.
The day of her wedding, I will be taking my
seventh testosterone shot, So my mind is somewhere, and then
(33:38):
my outer appearance is I feel is being stuffed back
into a closet.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Well, so you're saying you want to wear men's formal wear.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Right, I mean she pointed out that the mother of
the bride and the grandmother of the bride are usually
in a pants suit or you know, something different than
a formal gown. And even that I would feel a
little bit less out of place. I would feel a
little bit more aligned if I was wearing anything, honestly,
(34:10):
other than address.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Didn't Sarah offer to Didn't she say to you one
of the options was that you could wear what the
men are wearing.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Yeah, so I think that that was not a very
genuine option, and only because they are having a man
handstitch these beautiful Italian suits and they had to start
this process because they are being handmade so long ago.
(34:43):
She may have meant it genuinely, but in actuality, I
don't think there was any way of that truly happening.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
If there was a way to make it happen. Does
that excite you the idea of wearing this custom made suit?
Speaker 4 (34:56):
Honestly, it actually pushed me more towards okay, just conform
to this female appearance, because all I could think about
when she said that was standing next to a bunch
of cisgendered males that are going to look great in
their formal wear. And then you have me going through
(35:18):
my second puberty, only like six to seven weeks on testosterone,
still very female presenting, and I think that that would
do more harm to my mind than anything. I think
it would make me feel even worse out of place,
like I don't fit.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
So you want to wear men's formal wear, but you
don't want to wear something that's such a direct comparison
to those men.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
And I think standing on his side also, I was against,
and not because I don't like him. He's a great guy.
This is where I guess my values don't align with
traditional values, because in my mind, the perfect way this
wedding would go would be me wearing this nice suit
or blazer or whatever, matching her standing on her side.
(36:06):
Whereas she sees it as okay, if you want to
be male presenting, stand on the male side. If you
want to be female presenting, stand on my side, which
is fine, it's just more traditional, whereas an I could
see me very well wearing men's formal wear but standing
on her side.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Have you had a discussion with her about this whole
idea of gender being non binary, and that she's actually
asking you to revert to one or the other, and
your feeding is I would like to do something that's
a little bit more in the middle, stand on your side,
but where something that has a jacket to it or
(36:43):
something like that. Have you had that discussion with her
so she can connect it not just to the visuals
of the wedding, but to the feelings you have about
gender and about yourself and what you want to present
to the world.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Yeah. So in the very first conversation we spoke about this,
there was a point in the conversation where we were
discussing me wearing something other than the dress that I
already bought. We already have it. I mentioned wearing the
same color but something different, and her response, which I
took as the most authentic, raw emotion of how she
(37:21):
truly felt, was her saying, I don't want my photos
to look weird. And once she said that, I felt
something in me shut down. I was like, Okay, nope,
I'm not doing this. I don't want her to feel
any type of way. This is her special day. I
will choke down any feelings I have. I can do
this one thing for her, and I knew that no
(37:42):
matter how many times if she were to say I
take it back or I don't think photos would look weird,
I knew that that was how she truly felt. And
I was like, it's over in my mind. I'm going
to do this for her. She told me how she really.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Feels, is that where you are right now when you're
thinking yes.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Because the second time that we spoke about it, where
I was kind of just trying to talk to her
about it, she, after all, is my best friend. And
I went to the depths of saying, you know, I
haven't been shaving my legs or shaving under my arms,
and I was explaining to her how it felt so relieving.
(38:21):
I was finally able to express how I feel. Things
were actually starting to align, and I told her, if
this may sound very trivial to you, but I don't
want to shave, and of course I'm going to need to.
I mean not of course, but I guess I would
be expected to. And I was telling her how those
little things may not mean much at face value, but
(38:44):
they really did mean something to me. At that time,
she was like flustered again, and I feel bad because
I know that this was all just another issue that
she had to deal with, the makeup people, canceling, the
hair people. You know, it's a crazy time to have
a wedding. So when I brought it back up, I
think that's where some of the frustration went, because she's like, great,
(39:06):
another thing I have to deal with.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
So was there any closure on that? Did she have
what you would do in that regard?
Speaker 4 (39:13):
I think she realized that she was being a bit harsh,
that she was maybe coming across as unwilling to move
her position or look for a solution, And after leaving
the conversation like that, giving herself time to reflect, I
then got a text message later at work saying, look,
(39:33):
I'm really sorry if you feel like I'm not supporting you.
I want you to be happy, and I know you're
going along with this because you want me to be happy.
And then she followed that up by saying, let's fix this,
let's do something about this. But I see where she's
going with it, and I really just think that I
(39:54):
need to just do this for her.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
What do you mean you see where she's going with it.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
I think she wants me to know that she would
maybe sit with some uncomfortable feelings that she had if
I were to, Okay, yeah, let's change it up now,
which I don't feel like I can do because of
time constraints, and just truly knowing that she wouldn't be
as happy with her photos.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
She might not be as happy with her photos if
she thought you weren't happy in them.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
And that's another thing. She was saying. She doesn't want
her photos to look weird. And what's going through my
head is, I'm never gonna want to look at those
photos because it's not going to be who I am.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
So when she said to you, let's fix this, have
you given any thought to what that might be on
urine that would make you feel less dysphoric? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (40:49):
Absolutely. I did suggest that maybe after the ceremony I
could change and then wear something that involves pants as
opposed to the dress, and she went for that, and
she said, of course, whatever you want. And I guess
that has kind of just been the middle ground that
we're leaving there. I don't know if I actually will
(41:13):
end up going to change. I guess I'm kind of
waiting to really see how I feel in it.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I'm thinking about how it was only a month ago
that you revealed that you were transitioning, And with weddings,
there's a lot of planning that takes months and months
and months, and so I'm just curious to know if
you thought about that while she was planning the wedding,
(41:43):
while all this was going on, how you thought about
the timing of that and what you thought would be
realistic given the tight timing.
Speaker 4 (41:53):
So, originally the wedding was supposed to take place in
April pre COVID, so I thought I wouldn't even come
out until after the wedding was already finished, and then
it being pushed back presented obviously more problems. When I
did initially come out to Sarah, I told her, I
(42:14):
can wait to even begin my transition until after your wedding,
if that would make you feel better, make anybody feel better.
I was a little bit worried about how his family
might react, and she was quick to say, absolutely not.
(42:34):
You've waited long enough. You do what you want to do,
and it's okay.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Both of you are sort of saying we want to
make sure the other person is happy, and yet you
are holding on to those words about the photos that
I think she's come around in a lot of ways
where maybe in a perfect world for her, she would
like her photos to look a certain way, But she
(43:02):
also says I love you so much and I want
you to be happy, and I want you to be
who you really are. And yet you're saying, yeah, I'll
just wear the dress to make her happy.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
Do you see?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
So it's almost like you're putting yourself in a prison
that you're not actually in.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
I agree.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
What stands out for me is how much you and
Sarah love each other. You've been through this really difficult
traumatic childhood. You shared the room, you were there for
having to call the police. You clearly really love each other.
And as Laurie was saying, she wants you to be
happy and you want her to be happy. You really
(43:43):
have done such a remarkable job of being authentic and
speaking your truth and really telling people how you feel
and who you are over these past years. And I
think there has to be elements of that in this
wedding where you feel authentic to you. But when you say, well,
(44:03):
I'll do it for her, that is you not giving
yourself the authenticity have to be pictures you can look
at and be happy.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
I mean, when Tina got married. I wore a dress,
and I love those pictures. I think maybe I'm a
very anxiety written person. Maybe I am just letting my
thoughts get the better of me, and that when I
do see myself in that dress, and when I do
see how happy my sister is, maybe I don't feel
(44:33):
the way that I anticipate that I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
You know what, Liam, I hear you talking yourself out
of your truth. And when you say that you were
happy looking at the pictures at Tina's wedding, you were
in a different place. Yeah, And this is where you
are now, and all of you siblings have gone through
(44:58):
so much together, and here's a really happy occasion. And
what's so happy about it is that your sister is saying, Look,
I'm human. I have reactions to this thing. You are human,
You have reactions to things. But in the end, we
always come back to we love each other and we
want each of us to be true to ourselves. And
(45:20):
you keep fighting that she has come back to you
multiple times. You've recounted in this conversation how many times
she has come back to you and said, I want
to fix this, I want to make it right. I
want you to be comfortable and every time you argue
with it, and so this conversation with her just gets
prolonged and it becomes almost an argument where you're arguing
(45:40):
against yourself, and then she has to be the person
who is arguing on your behalf. And I think what's
happening is you're externalizing an internal argument. So you're making
this internal argument that you're having with yourself about well,
how public should.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
I be about this?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
And how do I feel about being public about this
in front of my family, in front of all of
these people. And you may have some fear around that,
but don't make Sarah the bad guy.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
In this, because she's not right.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
So we're thinking about your situation and we have two
pieces of advice that we'd like you to try this week.
And the first is that we would like you to
have a different conversation with Sarah than the one that
is getting nowhere. This just keeps going back and forth,
and that is for you to say to Sarah, I
(46:40):
am so excited for your big day. I am so
excited for this new chapter of your life, and I
want it to be everything that you want it to be.
And the reason that it's hard for me to either
wear a bridesmaid dress or to wear men's formal wear.
Is because I am transitioning and I am in the
middle right now, and I would like to go to
(47:02):
your wedding in a way that reflects that middle ground
where I actually am in life. And you have been
so gracious and supportive and I so appreciate that, and
I would like to figure out with you what would
make you comfortable that I can wear that reflects the
(47:22):
actual place that I am right now, which is in
that middle ground. And you talk about colors, and you
talk about style, and you talk about whatever it is,
and by the end of that conversation, you say, this
is the tailor we have to call, this is the
thing we're going to order, and you get that order
in by next week. Okay, So none of this back
(47:46):
and forth, none of this is what do we do?
And oh no, she's going to be displeased. Oh no,
then she thinks, so I'm going to be displeased. I
think you both actually agree. You've already resolved this. You're
not taking away anything from her day. The spotlight is
on her and you're in the middle, and you want
to wear something that reflects that. I think you're both
in agreement on that, So now you just have to
(48:06):
execute that. So instead of having this internal argument with
yourself that you're now externalizing to Sarah, you can say,
wait a minute, I need to look at why this
is so hard for me to accept her offer.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Laurie Setti that you're having this argument in your own
head that you're then externalizing with Sarah. I think that's
primarily because you don't have other trans people to talk
to about very specific situations. You're on a journey that's
a marathon, it's not a sprint, and you really need
(48:43):
to have people who've been through it, who understand it,
who are going through it, that you can talk to
and you can share some of these feelings so that
you can get clear in your head that what you
feel is completely valid and legitimate and important. So the
(49:03):
second part of the advice we're giving you that we'd
like you to do this week is to find some
kind of trans support group where you're talking about these
things you need to have around you. People who really
truly get you from experience, are not just from love,
which is what you have right now, and that's great,
(49:24):
by the way. So those are the two things. How
do you feel about doing those things.
Speaker 4 (49:30):
I've actually found a group that meets every other Sunday
with a focus on the transgender community. I just have
not yet made it to a meeting just because of
work constraints. But it is worth it to take a
day off of work to make this happen and to
get the support of people in my shoes. And it
(49:52):
really pained me to hear the first bit of advice
because I'm realizing that I did not say any of
those things. I'm so happy for you. I'm so excited
for your big day, and I really am thrilled for
her and I am excited for her, and it makes
me sad that I haven't a vocal that yet. So
I think both bits are very doable and I think
(50:15):
this will definitely get us past, like you said, this
back and forth of really not getting anything done.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
And it will be helpful to hear it too, because
there's so much stress before a wedding, and to say, listen,
I think this got lost in all of the logistics.
I just want to let you know that I am
so excited you found this great person and I hope
to find a great person, and that you are there,
just as she has supported you, you are there to
(50:45):
support her that day and just say it's been hard
for me to accept your support because I'm so worried
about your feelings and I realize that not accepting your support,
I'm actually making it harder for you.
Speaker 4 (50:57):
Yeah. Absolutely, well, we wish you luck with this this week.
Thank you guys, appreciate it so much.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
What I really liked about Liam was that he was
so resilient. He had been through so much in his life,
and yet at every turn he was able to stay
true to himself to get to the point where he
got to today. And I think there's still a part
of him, because this is so new that he's gone public,
(51:33):
that isn't so sure about how to navigate this. And
I think because he's been so resilient, he thinks he
should just know how to do this. And that's why
it's so important for him to be able to talk
to other people and have some community around him.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
I think what's blocking him a little bit is that
he loves his sisters so much and his mom, and
he's been able to forgive his dad, and he was
able to forgive is from a partner and try again.
Is so empathetic that I think that that's what's bloging him.
He's thinking a little too much of other people's feelings
(52:08):
and not prayer to himself quite enough, and being on
the path that he's on will help him find balance
between his own needs and the feelings of the people
around him.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
You're listening to Dear Therapist from My Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a quick break.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
So, Laurie, we heard from Liam. Let's hear what happened.
Speaker 4 (52:45):
Hi Laurie. Hi guy. So I spoke with Sarah one
last time, and we've come to the conclusion that I
will wear the dress throughout the ceremony and after the
ceremony when we all go to sit down to eat
and then dance later, I'm going to change into a
really nice mauve color blazer with just some nice pants
(53:08):
and a nice shirt underneath. That way, I can also
get a bunch of photos in that outfit that I
feel more comfortable in, and also my sister can get
her ceremonial pictures how she likes it. And I did
try to go to an in person support group, but
it does look like the COVID restrictions are still a
(53:30):
little too strict to have those in person meetings. I
did contact the group and they did say that they
do think that they'll be open soon, but I am
continuing to look for a virtual support group until I
can make those meetings. So again, I just wanted to
thank you guys so much for listening and sharing my
story and providing me with some really great advice. So
(53:51):
thank you guys so much.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
I'm really glad that Liam talked to Sarah. I remember
that one of the things we wanted him to get
across to her was how excited he is for her wedding,
and I think that that somehow maybe got lost in here,
even though there's so much love between the two of them,
(54:15):
and so we didn't hear from Liam. Whether that happened,
I don't know. If it's just hard for the two
of them to communicate because of the discomfort they're having
around talking about something that's hard for both of them.
And this might be hard for Sarah in ways that
they haven't been able to talk about, or Sarah hasn't
been able to talk about for fear of hurting Liam's feelings.
(54:38):
So I'm glad they came to a compromise. I'm not
convinced that the sentiment that we hoped Liam would get
across happen. And I also think it's very common that
something very concrete like a wedding becomes the focus of
a deeper conversation that needs to be had, and so
(55:00):
this just happened last month. Everybody is all of a
sudden talking about, Okay, Liam is transitioning. What does that
mean for how is going to be at the wedding?
And that's one conversation, but it opens the door for
the many conversations that are going to happen after this.
Speaker 3 (55:20):
I completely agree. The one great service this wedding did
is it forced him to have several conversations about Liam's transitioning,
which meant that in the early stages, they already established
this is something we're going to be able to talk about,
we're going to need to talk about, and they already
established that president which will be so valuable going forward
(55:41):
with the process for Liam especially, but for his sisters
and family as well.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
It's great that Liam is looking into local support groups
because it's really important for him to be able to
talk with other people who are going through what he's
going through. I think Liam is setting the stage for
creating the kind of support around him that will make
this process go as smoothly as possible for him.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Yeah, it's going to be an exciting time ahead for Liam. Hey,
fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice from
the podcast in your own life, send us a quick
voice memo to Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell
us about it. We may include it in a future show.
(56:25):
Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show,
please take a moment to rate and review it.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (56:42):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small, email us
at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Our executive producers, Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by
Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairygodmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 3 (57:06):
Next week we'll talk to a mother trying to forge
a more open line of communication with her adult children
after years of turmoil.
Speaker 5 (57:13):
I don't want to be a wedge between him and
his wife. I want them to figure it out. And
so I think part of what's been holding me back
is saying I don't want to be in charge of
my children making personal decisions on such a huge scale
because of a comment I might have made.
Speaker 1 (57:31):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
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