September 3, 2024 • 46 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. Maria doesn't want to interfere in her kids' lives, but when she hears that her son wants to have children but his wife doesn't, she wonders if her son will have regrets later if she doesn't say something now. But what should she say, and how? We help her to see that her fears about her son's lack of a voice in his marriage is something she's familiar with herself, and that acknowledging the unspoken will open the door to a new family dynamic.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy column for Ted. And this is Dea Therapists. This
week we'll talk to a mother trying to forge a
more open line of communication with her adult children after
(00:25):
years of turmoil. I don't want to be a wedge
between him and his wife. I want them to figure
it out. And so I think part of what's been
holding me back is saying I don't want to be
in charge of my children making personal decisions on such
a huge scale because of a comment I might have made.
I want them to make the decisions based on how
(00:47):
they feel about things and where you know where their
heart is at about it. Listen in and maybe learn
something about yourself in the process. Dear Therapists is for
informational purpose is only, does not constitute medical advice, and
is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
(01:07):
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter, you
are agreeing to let Ihart Media use it in partter
and fall, and we may edit it for length and
or clarity. Hey guy, Hi Laurie, So I have a
confession to make. I actually took a peek at this
(01:28):
week's letter. Oh very good. Then we can get going,
all right, dear therapists. My son has been married for
five years. I've heard from my daughter that he wants children,
but his wife does not. I would like grandchildren, but
I feel it's not my place to ask them to
have children for me. However, I would like to talk
(01:48):
to him about it, but I am afraid to do so. Also,
if he wants children and she doesn't, what should he do.
I know they are seeing a counselor, but I don't
want to get involved. Alto seems to think that he
cannot stand up to her. Signed Maria. You know what
comes to mind when I see that letter is that
(02:09):
as a parent, but I think there's always that line
of how much can I get involved where I'm helping
and where is that line that I cross over to
where I'm being intrusive? And a much of what she's
saying seems secondhand from the daughter. She hasn't had the
conversation directly, so I think she's been really respectful in
(02:30):
terms of not crossing the boundary, but it is leaving
her a bit in the dark and then a bit
frustrated about, well, how do I have this conversation without
stepping on toes Potentially, Yeah, And I think the other
question is when she thinks about her son having kids,
is it because she wants grandkids or is it that
(02:51):
he had talked about wanting to have kids one day
and she had this idea of him with that kind
of life. And there's a loss there, the loss of
my son would make a great father. And maybe he's
making this compromise for his wife, but he's going to
lose out on this experience that I, as a parent,
found so gratifying and I'm sad that my son won't
(03:11):
have that because it was a very rich part of
my life. And it's also very possible that she has
friends in an age group who are grandparents now and
they're telling her, oh, my goodness, you can't imagine how
great this is. So it's possible that she's also hearing
Rave Reviews about grandparenting and eager to have the experience herself. Well,
(03:33):
we need to get some more information from her, so
let's go talk to her. Yes, you're listening to Deatherapists
from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break. I'm
Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is dea Therapists.
(03:55):
Hi Maria, Hi, how are you good? Thank you for
coming on the show. Welcome, welcome, Thank you. I'm a
little bit nervous, but I'm happy to be here. Good.
So we read your letter and we're wondering if you
can tell us a little bit more about your relationship
with your son. Well, he's forty years old. He got
(04:17):
married about five or six years ago. He seems pretty
happy in his relationship. I was afraid to ask him
about children because I feel like it's none of my business.
But enough time has gone by that I thought maybe
I should say, what are your feelings about having children?
(04:41):
And I was too nervous to do that. So I
talked to my daughter about it, and she said that
he would like them, but his wife would not. So
I was a little bit stymied about that. And so
it's not my decision on how people choose or not
choose to have children, especially my own children, but I
(05:05):
kind of wish they would. We've been pretty close all
our lives, but I just feel like it's so personal.
I've been afraid to sort of find out what's going on.
So you say you've been pretty close all your lives,
But do you not broach really personal topics with one another?
Is that not something you talk to him about? You know?
I think you're right, It is kind of hard to
(05:26):
ask a super personal question like that. I think as
time goes by, I'm trying to be a little more
open minded about that sort of thing, so I can
ask more personal questions. He did mention a couple of
years ago that he and his wife were going through canceling.
He didn't want to say what it was about. He
(05:47):
just said, I want you to know we're fine, but
I just wanted to let you know we're doing that. Maria,
How did that come up? In what context? Did he
bring that up with you? I think he wanted me
to know for some reason, because I never asked him.
He just brought it up during a phone conversation, and
(06:07):
I was a little surprised, but I thought, well, maybe
it's a good thing. People do need to talk about
their issues and what's going on. And I know my
husband and I tried to do that a couple of
times and we didn't really get very far with it,
so I was happy to hear that he was doing that.
Can I ask me, real, why do you think he
mentioned it to you? Because the way you're saying he
(06:28):
mentioned it was kind of FYI, we're going to counseling.
Everything's fine, don't worry. But just thought you should know,
which is a kind of strange way to bring that
up because it brings up so many questions for you.
Why do you think he had told you about it?
Maybe he was trying to establish some sort of conversation
(06:51):
with me, but he really didn't want to get into
the particulars about it. So maybe it was just a
way for him being more open about who he is.
You're saying that he didn't want to get into the
particulars of it. Did he beyond what you just told us,
Did he indicate that in some way or did you
ask any question that was rebuffed? Or do you think
(07:12):
he might be making an assumption that he didn't. Oh, well,
he just said I just wanted to let you know
about it, and that's all I'm going to say about it.
But I want you and everything's fine, okay. So you
took that as and don't ask me any further questions, right,
I did. His wife is a very strong personality. I
(07:33):
like her a lot. I think she has a lot
of spunk, but she's very opinionated and she's very sure
about who she is and her ideas and comments. And
I'm just wondering if she's controlling him through this decision.
(07:55):
I heard they did want to have children before they
got married, or it was a possibility, but she's changed
her mind since then. Where did you hear that information
that they did want to have children is dissolving funneled
through your daughter? Yes, it was originally being funneled through
my daughter. I subsequently, since I wrote to you, I
(08:16):
did speak with him, and I finally cut up the
courage to say, well, you know what if you decided
about having children. I mean, I just mentioned it a
couple of times and he said, well, Susan doesn't want
to have any And I really had to deal with
that in my head, and I thought that maybe that
(08:38):
would be okay, and I really love her, and so
I worry about him speaking up for himself in the
relationship so that he can get what he wants out
of the relationship. Because I've been going through some counseling myself,
and I think we pick up on our parents' patterns
(08:58):
about how we relate and our birth family to then
our children in that family, they pick up on our
ways of communicating with each other, and I think that
he is maybe picking up on me. I was sort
of repressed and I wasn't maybe pushing too hard in
my relationship with my husband, so I just worried that
(09:21):
he might be doing the same thing. Can you tell
us a little bit more about your relationship with your husband.
You said that you went to counseling. Are you still married,
and were you ever able to find more of your
voice in that relationship? Not really. There's another component to this.
(09:42):
My husband passed away not quite a year ago, and
that's one of the reasons why I'm going through this counseling,
and just in dealing with going through the counseling and
understanding my relationship with him, I'm beginning to understand how
I was willing to have him be sort of like
(10:04):
the final arbitrator on quite a few things. And so
I'm wondering if my son has picked up on my
pattern and is doing this in the same way with
his wife. What were some of the things where you
felt like he was the arbitrator of certain decisions in
your marriage. How much money we would spend on things
(10:28):
he thought maybe I should not eat too much at
the dinner table, or we should sell the house. I
wasn't ready to sell the house, but you know, it
worked out. I grew up in a different state, and
then we moved and he wanted to make that move,
which I didn't want to do. I think we argued
a lot, and we never got anywhere with our arguing
because even though I would try to use communication skills
(10:52):
and give eye messages, it didn't really work very well
with him because he would sort of play the silence
game and he wasn't good at apologizing and things like that.
So I think our children pick up on those patterns
of communication. Maria, I'm so sorry for your loss. He
passed away recently. I'm so sorry for that, but it
(11:15):
sounds like that during the time that you were together still,
and really, even since he's passed and you've been in
therapy and kind of looking at things and that you're
on this path of trying to find your voice. Yes,
And I'm wondering whether that's a path you feel your
own with your son as well, and if you are
(11:36):
where on that path you might be positioned at this
moment because it sounds like with your son you're still
quite hesitant to voice your opinion or even to ask
questions when he's conveying personal information like you hear it.
You don't ask follow ups because you're trying to be respectful.
But in that way, you haven't expressed your voice. Do
(11:56):
you have a thought about that? I agree with you.
It's a hard thing to talk about these feelings. Are
you aware of the parallel? No, you just brought it up,
and I can see that now as you're bringing it up.
And usually when we're afraid to speak up, there's a
reason we have in our mind, like if I speak up,
(12:19):
this will happen. And I don't know what that reason was.
With your husband, you know, if I tell him how
I feel about this, it'll end in a big argument
or he'll get his way anyway, or whatever. You thought.
What is the fear when you think about bringing something
up with your son. That's a good question. In the
(12:44):
worst case scenario, what might happen. Well, in the worst
case scenario, he might say it's not of your business.
I mean that's I can do it with that. Or
he might say, well, it's not going to happen, or
I don't want to tell you. So I know, it
seems like I'm afraid of nothing. Well, actually, it sounds
(13:07):
like you're afraid that by talking to him about these things,
he will think that you're trying to cause a wedge
between him and his wife, and he will respond to
that and be upset with you about that. Yes, I
totally agree. I don't want to be a wedge between
(13:27):
him and his wife. I want them to figure it out.
And so I think part of what's been holding me
back is saying, if I bring this up and I
tell him you have rights in this marriage, what does
that say about whether they'll stay together or not? And
I don't want to be the person that sets that off.
My dad used to comment on one of my brother's girlfriends,
(13:52):
and I think that my brother married somebody because of
my dad's opinion. And I don't want to be in
charge of my children making personal decisions on such a
huge scale because of a comment I might have made.
I want them to make the decisions based on how
they feel about things and where you know where their
heart is at about it. Do you have the same
(14:15):
fear about talking to your daughter about personal things like this?
I don't know if she's married, and how old is she?
She's thirty eight, okay? And is she in a relationship
as she married? And have you talked to her when
you've had opinions about these kinds of things with her?
She's not married. She's been in an on and off
relationship that I don't think is the best relationship for her,
(14:40):
because I think that he might not treat her as
nicely as I would like him to treat her. We've
talked about it, but I think she just notes what
I say and then she does what she wants. She
has been in and out of this relationship with this
same person, and I don't want to denigrate him because
(15:03):
they break up and then they get back together again.
And if I were to say all these negative comments
about him, she would remember that, And maybe that's a
bad thing for me to be putting in her head,
because then she remembers mom as being someone who didn't
approve of her and her boyfriend. So I think that
(15:24):
there's a difference between saying to your daughter, I don't
like this guy, or saying to your son, I think
your wife is controlling you and really having a conversation
that's about the relationship that you have with each of
your children, which is I love you, and I'm wondering
(15:46):
if this is making you happy. I'm wondering how you
feel about this? When she breaks up with the boyfriend again,
you know, what is this like for you? It seems
like you're suffering a lot, which is different from I
don't like him. It's how is this making you feel?
And I think the same thing with your son. There's
a difference between your sister says that you want to
(16:09):
have kids and your wife doesn't, and I'm concerned about
that versus well, how do you feel about not being
a father. I like to think that I'm good at
communicating and asking questions and talking to my children, but
I think when it comes to these serious issues, I
have a difficult time bringing up these problems or issues
(16:32):
in a way that's loving and non judgmental. Where you
speak about the relationship with your son. It sounds as
if there's have been incidents in the past where you
have voiced an opinion and he has bristled at it
or found it intrusive in some way. Is that the case. Yes,
(16:55):
I've tried to have some conversations just recently and I
get comments like, oh, you're repeating yourself. I've already heard
this before. What was the conversation about? What it was about?
Family communication? We used to have these family meetings and
(17:15):
I would try to establish some sort of ground rules
and how we were going to talk about things if
we had arguments and that sort of thing, and I
kind of got these messages, why are we doing this?
Just recently, when we were trying to talk about something,
I did get some negative feedback and you know, you
(17:37):
need to work on you, not on us. And I said, well,
I'm not trying to work on you so much as
I'm trying to understand how we communicate with each other
so that I can talk to you about things. Did
that comment come from your daughter or your son? That
came from my daughter Because we were having a three
(17:58):
way family meeting. It sounds like your son and daughter
confide in each other, because it was through your daughter
that you heard this information that your son wanted children
and his wife didn't, and it in her mind he
has a hard time standing up to her. And so
(18:20):
they have some communication going on. Yes, they do. They
communicate quite a bit, which I'm happy for, and they
support each other quite a bit before this. When you
wanted to bring something up to them when they were younger,
were they receptive to that? I think so. Maybe I
was a little bit, you know, crowing up with chores
(18:43):
and things like that. I'd say, if you think you
have a hard time, you know, I'll take you to
Tijuana and then you'll see what a hard time was like,
you know. So maybe when there were issues, instead of
listening and giving them empathetic feedback, it was more like
I grew up and so I don't know why you're complaining.
Maybe I wasn't as sympathetic as I could have been
(19:04):
when they were growing up, Maria. Have things changed in
the dynamic between you and your son and daughter since
your husband died? How did they take his passing and
did that change anything for the three of you? I
think so. I think that they thought their dad was
(19:26):
very authoritarian and rigid in many ways, and I think
the three of us are trying to work on issues,
whereas I think if my husband were still alive, we
might not be discussing these issues so much. What are
some of the other issues that you are trying to
work on as a family. Well, both of my children
(19:52):
have gone through difficult times with drinking, and my daughter
lost her job because of it and she went into
outpatient for a while. And so I wonder about was
(20:15):
I clueless when they were in high school? Why didn't
I talk to them more about it? Because both my
father and my father in law were alcoholics, and my
daughter said to me, well, why didn't you ever bring
that up? And I guess I didn't realize how much
power alcohol had in their lives. They're both sober and
(20:38):
going to AA right now, and they have sponsors. So
I guess I'm also trying to understand how was I
not there. I was there when they were growing up.
In fact, I felt like I was very responsible in
staying home and not going away so the kids couldn't
have parties. I guess I didn't understand where the drink
(21:00):
came from. And I think through the therapy that I'm doing.
I'm understanding that a little bit more, But of course
I feel guilty that maybe I wasn't a sympathetic when
they were growing up or fully present or I mean,
we were always together in terms of eating dinner together,
taking vacations together, celebrating the holidays together, but obviously there
(21:23):
were things that they felt they needed alcohol to escape from.
Do you know when the drinking problems began and how
long they've been in recovery. Yes, my son's been sober
for at least a year and my daughter since February
of this year. She had a relapse since then and
(21:46):
I went to be with her. But they're both working
really hard on it, and I know that they're much
happier being sober. How long have they been struggling with alcoholism? Well,
I didn't realize it, but according to my daughter, it
started in high school for her. I think it was
more college for my son, sort of like you go
(22:08):
away to school and party, party, party, although he said
he drank in high school, but I never really saw that.
If they started in high school and in college, it's
a lot of years of drinking. And they both coincidentally
became so around the same time, which is roughly around
the same time that your husband died. With those things related,
(22:33):
it could be I think they both had DUIs. It
was sort of like the consequences of life were coming
at them pretty strong. I didn't know the extent of
their drinking problems until more recently, so obviously they were
hiding it from me. I mean, they both did come
out and tell me about their DUIs, and I didn't
(22:56):
judge them or anything. I just tried to listen to them.
But for my daughters, you kept drinking. It could be
about their dad dying. Maybe they're taking stock of their life.
I think it was actually in the process before that happened.
But sometimes it takes a shock to maybe throw you
out of your comfort zone. You know, when you say
(23:18):
they told you about the DUIs and you didn't judge
them and you just listened. I feel like there's some
confusion for you around what it means to be able
to be present for somebody without being intrusive. Your kids
have told you that they got these dus. Your son said,
(23:39):
just by the way, I want to let you know
that I'm going to couples counseling with my wife, and
you said that. Your response to these things has been
to just hear what they had to say. But I
wonder if underneath this giving you of information is actually
a request for help, and that they actually do want
(24:00):
to hear what you think, or maybe they want some
kind of help that they're not able to voice. And
I wonder if all of you in some way have
trouble really being direct with each other about what you're
trying to communicate. And even with your son's wife, if
they've been married for about five years and he got
(24:21):
sober about a year ago, he's been struggling with this
addiction throughout the marriage, and it could be that one
of the reasons she's hesitant to have children is that
she doesn't feel like he's in a place to be
a father right now. But nobody's talking about this. I
(24:44):
think that's very sound. I think what you're saying is accurate.
I would be worried too if I was married to
him and I saw that he was having this major issue.
How are they feeling about you? Often when a doubt
children lose a parent, they very much worry about the
(25:04):
other parent. Have they expressed any concern for you? What's
their feelings about how you're doing? Well, yeah, they are
worried about me, and I think they do worry about
how I am grieving and how I'm dealing with being alone.
They were the ones who encouraged me to start seeing someone,
(25:27):
they being both well. I think initially my son was
really wanting me to do it, and I was staying
with my daughter at the time, and I was going
to wait until I got back home, and then I
thought maybe I should start this counseling right now, so
I did, and I think they were really happy to
(25:50):
hear that. You know, what was interesting, Maria, is that
therapy for most people is intensely personal. And your son
shares with you that he's in couples counseling. He encourages
you to go to therapy, is concerned about how you're doing,
and so, on the one hand, there's this avenue of
(26:11):
communication which sounds quite open. On the one hand, all
of those are coming from him to you and not
necessarily from you to him. In other words, you want
to have a deeper discussion, but you really hold back.
It certainly sounds like he's opening some doors for you
(26:32):
to come through in terms of bringing up certain topics
like therapy, like feelings I agree. I guess it's just
hard to talk about these things. But are you owning
that it's hard for you. You make it sound like
it's hard for him, and I'm wondering who it's hard for. Well,
(26:53):
I think it's hard for me too. It's funny I
can say it to a friend, right, I want to
hear what it is? What is it that if you
were able to say how you feel, I wonder if
you're even able to say it to yourself in full,
not just the thing about, oh, it would be nice
(27:13):
to have grandchildren, but all the feelings about how you're
worried that your son's marriage replicates your own a little bit,
where he's in the role that you were in where
you felt sort of railroaded a lot and sort of controlled,
and we don't know if that's true. This is just
something that your daughter has expressed, But this is your
(27:34):
worry because you went through so many years like that
and you are worried that your son might be experiencing
something similar. And then there's a part of you that
just wants to have grandchildren because it's fun. And then
there's the part two of maybe you imagined your son
(27:54):
as a father one day, and maybe you really enjoyed
the experience of being a parent. It's hard to imagine
the loss for your son if he does want kids,
of not having that richness, not having that experience of
having kids. If it is indeed something that he wants,
but that he would be giving up for whatever reasons
(28:18):
in the marriage. And so could you tell us how
you feel about this? Well? I do worry that if
he wants a child and he can't have a child,
then how does that feel when you grow up and
you're old someday and you don't have anybody to comfort you.
I mean, I have my children to comfort me. I
(28:39):
find it unimaginable to understand not having children, I really do.
What did you love about having children? Oh my gosh,
they were just so adorable, you know, kissing them, feeling
their warm skin, being close to them, hugging them. In fact,
this was a conversation I just had recent me with
(29:01):
my daughter in law. She asked me, did people say
I love you a lot growing up? And I said,
not really, And it was a decision I made that
when I had children, I was going to let them
know I love them a lot. Why did she bring
that up? That's an interesting question to ask you. I
know this came totally out of the blue. This happened
(29:22):
two days ago. She sent me a voice memo and said,
my friend and I were talking about do you say
I love you a lot? In your family? How do
you talk to your children about this? So I got
in touch with her and I said, we didn't say
it much growing up. Growing up was more like do
your chores get good grades? You can go to college. Clearly,
(29:45):
what she's asking about is something between her and your
son and his ability to express I love you. I
would imagine, you know, in some way, and if he's
having trouble doing that, she's calling you and she's saying, hey,
do guys do that when he was growing up? Okay, yeah,
I would think he'd be able to say it to
(30:07):
her because I just loved, you know, singing to them,
reading to them, taking them to the playground. In fact,
I was even thinking about homeschooling them because I really
wanted everything just to be wonderful for them. And sometimes
you send them off to school and you know, everything
goes haywire. I can hear how much you loved raising
(30:29):
your kids, and yet there wasn't a lot of I
love you. You expressed your love in other ways, the hugging,
the kissing, snuggling, the being present for them, all of that.
But it's interesting that, as this whole conversation is about
having a voice and being able to directly communicate with
(30:50):
people and even something as simple and yet complicated as love,
it was hard to say those three words I love you,
and now you do. And I think that there's something
that's happening in the dynamic of the family that is
going to give you space to do something different in
(31:15):
the situation with your son. So, Maria, we do have
some advice for you, and what would like you to
do is would like you to talk with your son
and with your daughter at the same time, because we
(31:40):
think there needs to be another family meeting, and would
like you to start by mentioning to both of them
that your daughter in law called you to ask if
you used to say I love you when the kids
were growing up, and that got you thinking about how
much you love them when they were kids, and how
(32:01):
much you enjoyed them, and how much you wanted to
protect them so much so that you thought of homeschooling them.
Yet you didn't say I love you much verbally at
that time, and that you didn't voice that to them
as much as you felt it. You didn't use your
voice enough when they were younger. You didn't use it
(32:23):
to stand up for yourself with your husband, and perhaps
even to stand up for them with their father, who
you described as authoritarian. You didn't use it to tell
them about the history of alcoholism in the family. And
you're saying that to them now because you've been going
(32:45):
to therapy and you've been working on finding your voice
and using your voice, and that's something that you want
to be able to do more now, right And so
we were thinking about in this meeting having you say
to your daughter, you know, I haven't used my voice
(33:09):
with the two of you, and I wonder how you
feel about the relationship that you're in, and I wonder
how you feel about the struggle that you're having with alcohol,
and to say to your son, I wonder about how
your sobriety is going, and I wonder about how you
(33:33):
feel about fatherhood and whether that's something that you've always
wanted but you feel like you're not in a position
to do because you're going through recovery right now, or
if it's something that doesn't matter as much to you
as maybe I'm imagining it does. And you can say
(33:53):
to them that I wonder if you've been as afraid
to talk to me as I have been to talk
to you. And I want us as a family to
be able to talk about hard things. And I wonder
how the both of you feel about this idea that
(34:14):
maybe we can all use our voices more and be
more direct with each other and open up those lines
of communication in a way that we haven't really established
in our family. And you'll see how they respond to this.
But most important, Maria, is we want to know how
(34:35):
you feel having had that conversation with them. We want
to know what was it like to use your voice
with them in a direct way, and to say all
of these things to them that you've been thinking but
haven't directly expressed to them, and to request that these
lines of communication opened so that what happened in the
(34:56):
past around people not being able to use their voices
doesn't get repeated now, grandchild or no grandchild, And now
to be able to say, I want to create a
culture of openness, of using our voices, of not being
shut down, whether that's feeling like they can't talk to you,
or feeling like they don't know how to talk to
(35:18):
their partners and use their voices with their partners. And
we want to know how that felt for you to
finally open that door as a start in this conversation.
How does that sound to you, Maria, sounds wonderful. I'm
imagining myself opening a door or is we're speaking? Okay,
(35:42):
that's great. It might be a little scary. But the
other thing you know that we had in mind here
is that your daughter in law called you to ask
about something that was related to her husband, and your
daughter tells you what her brother and your son is
actually thinking because he doesn't tell you directly. There's there's
so many kinds of communications that are not direct, and
(36:03):
especially when there's alcoholism involved, honesty and directness is really
really important. And so this is important for them as
much as it is for you, as much it is
is for the entire family and all the communication between
all of you. I'd be happy to do that. Great.
We look forward to hearing how it goes. I really
(36:26):
appreciate you taking the time to discuss this issue with me.
We know you have a voice because we heard it,
and so that's the voice that we want you to
take into this conversation with them. Okay, you're ready. I'm ready.
(36:53):
I have to admit I am not sure how it's
going to go in terms of how this is going
to be received by Maria's son and daughter, But I
do know that what's important here is for her to
find her own voice, and by merit of having this conversation,
she will be doing that. And even if they don't
(37:14):
respond in the moment, I think what she's doing is
she is shifting something in this dynamic in the family
where everything was happening indirectly. She never mentioned in her
letter the elephant in the room that the whole time
that he's been married, he's been struggling with this addiction,
and maybe that has some impact on his readiness to
(37:37):
be a father. This whole dilemma, to me, was really
less a dilemma about grandchildren and mour a dilemma about
finding one's voice. And she's been starting to find hers,
and I think she's modeling for her kids by having
this conversation how they can find theirs. I think for
(37:59):
her kids, because they're struggling with alcoholism, one thing that's
really important for them mis directness, and so her being
so direct, even if it takes them a while to
appreciate it will be very useful for them. I agree,
So I think it's crossed for her. You're listening to
(38:26):
Dear Therapist from my Heart Radio. We'll be back after
a quick break. So guy, we got the voicemail from Maria.
Oh good, that session went in a different direction than
(38:46):
I was expecting. So let's hear it. Hi, this is Maria.
I spoke with my children since I spoke with the
two of you, and I also had a session with
my therapy pissed in between. She suggested that I write
things down in an email that I wanted to go
(39:07):
over with my children, because then, she said, you're able
to formulate your thoughts, you can look at them, you
can reflect on them and see if there's something you
want to change or add, And so that's what I did. Also,
sometimes when I talked to my children, the two of
them together, I almost feel a little flat footed. It's
(39:30):
hard to talk and think at the same time. And
I wanted them also to have these thoughts in the
email before we talked, in case they had any questions
and that sort of thing. And basically what I told
them was I've loved them ever since before they were born,
(39:51):
and how I made a conscious decision to make sure
that they knew they were loved because I didn't feel
that much love in my birth family. There weren't a
lot of I love yous and hugging. It was more
about chores and getting your homework done. It was an
authoritarian family, and I think some of those same patterns
(40:14):
got repeated as they were growing up because my husband
was authoritarian and maybe I didn't have enough of my
own voice. And I also expressed that in the email
and told them I was hoping that they would feel
they had a voice in their relationships. I didn't want
(40:36):
them to repeat some of the same mistakes I made.
They loved the letter. They said they were very touched
by it. We talked about it briefly in our conversation,
and one of the things that came up was my
son said he didn't really want to rehash the whole
(40:56):
past and hold on to judgments and blame, and I said,
I totally agree with you. And so I was a
very constructive conversation and doing the email and writing it
down ahead of time allowed me to be very focused
on exactly what I wanted to communicate with them, and
(41:17):
it went really well. So I'm feeling very happy. And
I had a lot of trepidation before the conversation, and
I addressed that in the letter. I said, I want
to be a part of your lives. I want you
to use me as a sounding block. I want you
(41:38):
to come to me with questions if you have them.
I want you to make your own decisions, but I'm
going to be here for you if that's what you like.
So I think it was a very good conversation and
it went really well. What I love about Maria's voicemail
(41:58):
was that her letter was really about this worry about
having grandchildren or not having grandchildren, and whether her son
was able to voice that in his marriage, and what
it became about was a whole family dynamic between her
and her two children and saying all of these things
that had been unspoken about the authoritarian household, her past,
(42:22):
their father, and her hope that they will have a
voice both in their relationships and with her I moved
two minds about it, to be honest with you, because
it sounds like it went well. It sounds like she
conveyed the messages she needed to convey. The fact though
that it was most of it done via the email
(42:45):
and they only had a brief conversation about it. And
even in that brief conversation, the sun said, I don't
want to rehash the past too much. Leaves me wondering
still whether the next time she needs to have a
direct dcation with them about something that's going on, she
will feel comfortable enough to do it, whether her son
or her daughter, which we didn't hear much about, will
(43:07):
accept it. In other words, when we ask people to
have a conversation, it's because we need them to make
the precedent of this being something we talk about, and
an email is not exactly the same. I feel like
it's a great start. I feel like sometimes just opening
up that line of communication, especially when it's so hard
(43:29):
for you and you have no practice doing this face
to face, is a start. I hope that, like you said,
it doesn't become the only way that they communicate. But
I do feel like she said things that they needed
to hear. Both of them have their issues with addiction,
and I feel like one of the big things with
addiction is people not talking about what needs to be
(43:51):
spoken about. And I also, in my mind flagged what
you flagged about the sun, saying I don't really want
to talk about the past. And I think that that
will maybe come with time. He's going to have to
deal with his past if he's going to deal with
his addiction. But I think as a first step, I'm
really really proud of her, and I think it had
(44:13):
a really positive effect on the three of them. One
last thought is that I would always defer to a
therapist who knows Maria obviously much better than we do.
And when she's saying to her, Okay, that was the advice,
but maybe do it in writing first, she might know
her well enough to know that that is likely to
go better than if she were to do it just
verbally on a call. To that end, I think she
(44:36):
did a magnificent job. If she's listening, what I would
suggest to her is, the next time there's something on
your mind that you want to talk to your son
or your daughter about, please don't hesitate. Use the momentum
you've created with the email and the conversation to practice
and to establish step two of And here is me
(44:57):
bringing stuff up. Like I said, I would Yeah. I
think momentum is the keyword here, because I think she
got the ball rolling and now she's got to keep
it rolling. Hey, fellow travelers, if you've used any of
our advice from the podcast in your own life, send
us a quick voice memo to Lori and Guy at
(45:18):
iHeartMedia dot com and tell us about it. We may
include it in a future show. Thank you so much
for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please take a
moment to rate and review it. You can follow us
both online. I'm at Lori Gottlieb dot com and you
can follow me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb I or
on Instagram at Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author. And I'm at
(45:41):
Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at Guywinch.
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
big or small, email us at Lorie and Guy at
iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis, were produced
and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to Samuel Benefield
(46:01):
and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Currek. Next week,
a high school student feels the pressure of academic achievement,
college applications, and extracurricular activities, while also trying to maintain
a sense of self. Like the top five things that
make me happy at the end of the day. I
do think a big part of it would be social too.
I do find happiness in doing well in school, but
(46:24):
I also do appreciate the connection. It's just I feel
like there's two sides of me that are kind of
battling for the time to find those interactions that make
me happy. Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy column for Ted. And this is Dea Therapists. This
week we'll talk to a mother trying to forge a
more open line of communication with her adult children after
(00:25):
years of turmoil. I don't want to be a wedge
between him and his wife. I want them to figure
it out. And so I think part of what's been
holding me back is saying I don't want to be
in charge of my children making personal decisions on such
a huge scale because of a comment I might have made.
I want them to make the decisions based on how
(00:47):
they feel about things and where you know where their
heart is at about it. Listen in and maybe learn
something about yourself in the process. Dear Therapists is for
informational purpose is only, does not constitute medical advice, and
is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
(01:07):
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter, you
are agreeing to let Ihart Media use it in partter
and fall, and we may edit it for length and
or clarity. Hey guy, Hi Laurie, So I have a
confession to make. I actually took a peek at this
(01:28):
week's letter. Oh very good. Then we can get going,
all right, dear therapists. My son has been married for
five years. I've heard from my daughter that he wants children,
but his wife does not. I would like grandchildren, but
I feel it's not my place to ask them to
have children for me. However, I would like to talk
(01:48):
to him about it, but I am afraid to do so. Also,
if he wants children and she doesn't, what should he do.
I know they are seeing a counselor, but I don't
want to get involved. Alto seems to think that he
cannot stand up to her. Signed Maria. You know what
comes to mind when I see that letter is that
(02:09):
as a parent, but I think there's always that line
of how much can I get involved where I'm helping
and where is that line that I cross over to
where I'm being intrusive? And a much of what she's
saying seems secondhand from the daughter. She hasn't had the
conversation directly, so I think she's been really respectful in
(02:30):
terms of not crossing the boundary, but it is leaving
her a bit in the dark and then a bit
frustrated about, well, how do I have this conversation without
stepping on toes Potentially, Yeah, And I think the other
question is when she thinks about her son having kids,
is it because she wants grandkids or is it that
(02:51):
he had talked about wanting to have kids one day
and she had this idea of him with that kind
of life. And there's a loss there, the loss of
my son would make a great father. And maybe he's
making this compromise for his wife, but he's going to
lose out on this experience that I, as a parent,
found so gratifying and I'm sad that my son won't
(03:11):
have that because it was a very rich part of
my life. And it's also very possible that she has
friends in an age group who are grandparents now and
they're telling her, oh, my goodness, you can't imagine how
great this is. So it's possible that she's also hearing
Rave Reviews about grandparenting and eager to have the experience herself. Well,
(03:33):
we need to get some more information from her, so
let's go talk to her. Yes, you're listening to Deatherapists
from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break. I'm
Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is dea Therapists.
(03:55):
Hi Maria, Hi, how are you good? Thank you for
coming on the show. Welcome, welcome, Thank you. I'm a
little bit nervous, but I'm happy to be here. Good.
So we read your letter and we're wondering if you
can tell us a little bit more about your relationship
with your son. Well, he's forty years old. He got
(04:17):
married about five or six years ago. He seems pretty
happy in his relationship. I was afraid to ask him
about children because I feel like it's none of my business.
But enough time has gone by that I thought maybe
I should say, what are your feelings about having children?
(04:41):
And I was too nervous to do that. So I
talked to my daughter about it, and she said that
he would like them, but his wife would not. So
I was a little bit stymied about that. And so
it's not my decision on how people choose or not
choose to have children, especially my own children, but I
(05:05):
kind of wish they would. We've been pretty close all
our lives, but I just feel like it's so personal.
I've been afraid to sort of find out what's going on.
So you say you've been pretty close all your lives,
But do you not broach really personal topics with one another?
Is that not something you talk to him about? You know?
I think you're right, It is kind of hard to
(05:26):
ask a super personal question like that. I think as
time goes by, I'm trying to be a little more
open minded about that sort of thing, so I can
ask more personal questions. He did mention a couple of
years ago that he and his wife were going through canceling.
He didn't want to say what it was about. He
(05:47):
just said, I want you to know we're fine, but
I just wanted to let you know we're doing that. Maria,
How did that come up? In what context? Did he
bring that up with you? I think he wanted me
to know for some reason, because I never asked him.
He just brought it up during a phone conversation, and
(06:07):
I was a little surprised, but I thought, well, maybe
it's a good thing. People do need to talk about
their issues and what's going on. And I know my
husband and I tried to do that a couple of
times and we didn't really get very far with it,
so I was happy to hear that he was doing that.
Can I ask me, real, why do you think he
mentioned it to you? Because the way you're saying he
(06:28):
mentioned it was kind of FYI, we're going to counseling.
Everything's fine, don't worry. But just thought you should know,
which is a kind of strange way to bring that
up because it brings up so many questions for you.
Why do you think he had told you about it?
Maybe he was trying to establish some sort of conversation
(06:51):
with me, but he really didn't want to get into
the particulars about it. So maybe it was just a
way for him being more open about who he is.
You're saying that he didn't want to get into the
particulars of it. Did he beyond what you just told us,
Did he indicate that in some way or did you
ask any question that was rebuffed? Or do you think
(07:12):
he might be making an assumption that he didn't. Oh, well,
he just said I just wanted to let you know
about it, and that's all I'm going to say about it.
But I want you and everything's fine, okay. So you
took that as and don't ask me any further questions, right,
I did. His wife is a very strong personality. I
(07:33):
like her a lot. I think she has a lot
of spunk, but she's very opinionated and she's very sure
about who she is and her ideas and comments. And
I'm just wondering if she's controlling him through this decision.
(07:55):
I heard they did want to have children before they
got married, or it was a possibility, but she's changed
her mind since then. Where did you hear that information
that they did want to have children is dissolving funneled
through your daughter? Yes, it was originally being funneled through
my daughter. I subsequently, since I wrote to you, I
(08:16):
did speak with him, and I finally cut up the
courage to say, well, you know what if you decided
about having children. I mean, I just mentioned it a
couple of times and he said, well, Susan doesn't want
to have any And I really had to deal with
that in my head, and I thought that maybe that
(08:38):
would be okay, and I really love her, and so
I worry about him speaking up for himself in the
relationship so that he can get what he wants out
of the relationship. Because I've been going through some counseling myself,
and I think we pick up on our parents' patterns
(08:58):
about how we relate and our birth family to then
our children in that family, they pick up on our
ways of communicating with each other, and I think that
he is maybe picking up on me. I was sort
of repressed and I wasn't maybe pushing too hard in
my relationship with my husband, so I just worried that
(09:21):
he might be doing the same thing. Can you tell
us a little bit more about your relationship with your husband.
You said that you went to counseling. Are you still married,
and were you ever able to find more of your
voice in that relationship? Not really. There's another component to this.
(09:42):
My husband passed away not quite a year ago, and
that's one of the reasons why I'm going through this counseling,
and just in dealing with going through the counseling and
understanding my relationship with him, I'm beginning to understand how
I was willing to have him be sort of like
(10:04):
the final arbitrator on quite a few things. And so
I'm wondering if my son has picked up on my
pattern and is doing this in the same way with
his wife. What were some of the things where you
felt like he was the arbitrator of certain decisions in
your marriage. How much money we would spend on things
(10:28):
he thought maybe I should not eat too much at
the dinner table, or we should sell the house. I
wasn't ready to sell the house, but you know, it
worked out. I grew up in a different state, and
then we moved and he wanted to make that move,
which I didn't want to do. I think we argued
a lot, and we never got anywhere with our arguing
because even though I would try to use communication skills
(10:52):
and give eye messages, it didn't really work very well
with him because he would sort of play the silence
game and he wasn't good at apologizing and things like that.
So I think our children pick up on those patterns
of communication. Maria, I'm so sorry for your loss. He
passed away recently. I'm so sorry for that, but it
(11:15):
sounds like that during the time that you were together still,
and really, even since he's passed and you've been in
therapy and kind of looking at things and that you're
on this path of trying to find your voice. Yes,
And I'm wondering whether that's a path you feel your
own with your son as well, and if you are
(11:36):
where on that path you might be positioned at this
moment because it sounds like with your son you're still
quite hesitant to voice your opinion or even to ask
questions when he's conveying personal information like you hear it.
You don't ask follow ups because you're trying to be respectful.
But in that way, you haven't expressed your voice. Do
(11:56):
you have a thought about that? I agree with you.
It's a hard thing to talk about these feelings. Are
you aware of the parallel? No, you just brought it up,
and I can see that now as you're bringing it up.
And usually when we're afraid to speak up, there's a
reason we have in our mind, like if I speak up,
(12:19):
this will happen. And I don't know what that reason was.
With your husband, you know, if I tell him how
I feel about this, it'll end in a big argument
or he'll get his way anyway, or whatever. You thought.
What is the fear when you think about bringing something
up with your son. That's a good question. In the
(12:44):
worst case scenario, what might happen. Well, in the worst
case scenario, he might say it's not of your business.
I mean that's I can do it with that. Or
he might say, well, it's not going to happen, or
I don't want to tell you. So I know, it
seems like I'm afraid of nothing. Well, actually, it sounds
(13:07):
like you're afraid that by talking to him about these things,
he will think that you're trying to cause a wedge
between him and his wife, and he will respond to
that and be upset with you about that. Yes, I
totally agree. I don't want to be a wedge between
(13:27):
him and his wife. I want them to figure it out.
And so I think part of what's been holding me
back is saying, if I bring this up and I
tell him you have rights in this marriage, what does
that say about whether they'll stay together or not? And
I don't want to be the person that sets that off.
My dad used to comment on one of my brother's girlfriends,
(13:52):
and I think that my brother married somebody because of
my dad's opinion. And I don't want to be in
charge of my children making personal decisions on such a
huge scale because of a comment I might have made.
I want them to make the decisions based on how
they feel about things and where you know where their
heart is at about it. Do you have the same
(14:15):
fear about talking to your daughter about personal things like this?
I don't know if she's married, and how old is she?
She's thirty eight, okay? And is she in a relationship
as she married? And have you talked to her when
you've had opinions about these kinds of things with her?
She's not married. She's been in an on and off
relationship that I don't think is the best relationship for her,
(14:40):
because I think that he might not treat her as
nicely as I would like him to treat her. We've
talked about it, but I think she just notes what
I say and then she does what she wants. She
has been in and out of this relationship with this
same person, and I don't want to denigrate him because
(15:03):
they break up and then they get back together again.
And if I were to say all these negative comments
about him, she would remember that, And maybe that's a
bad thing for me to be putting in her head,
because then she remembers mom as being someone who didn't
approve of her and her boyfriend. So I think that
(15:24):
there's a difference between saying to your daughter, I don't
like this guy, or saying to your son, I think
your wife is controlling you and really having a conversation
that's about the relationship that you have with each of
your children, which is I love you, and I'm wondering
(15:46):
if this is making you happy. I'm wondering how you
feel about this? When she breaks up with the boyfriend again,
you know, what is this like for you? It seems
like you're suffering a lot, which is different from I
don't like him. It's how is this making you feel?
And I think the same thing with your son. There's
a difference between your sister says that you want to
(16:09):
have kids and your wife doesn't, and I'm concerned about
that versus well, how do you feel about not being
a father. I like to think that I'm good at
communicating and asking questions and talking to my children, but
I think when it comes to these serious issues, I
have a difficult time bringing up these problems or issues
(16:32):
in a way that's loving and non judgmental. Where you
speak about the relationship with your son. It sounds as
if there's have been incidents in the past where you
have voiced an opinion and he has bristled at it
or found it intrusive in some way. Is that the case. Yes,
(16:55):
I've tried to have some conversations just recently and I
get comments like, oh, you're repeating yourself. I've already heard
this before. What was the conversation about? What it was about?
Family communication? We used to have these family meetings and
(17:15):
I would try to establish some sort of ground rules
and how we were going to talk about things if
we had arguments and that sort of thing, and I
kind of got these messages, why are we doing this?
Just recently, when we were trying to talk about something,
I did get some negative feedback and you know, you
(17:37):
need to work on you, not on us. And I said, well,
I'm not trying to work on you so much as
I'm trying to understand how we communicate with each other
so that I can talk to you about things. Did
that comment come from your daughter or your son? That
came from my daughter Because we were having a three
(17:58):
way family meeting. It sounds like your son and daughter
confide in each other, because it was through your daughter
that you heard this information that your son wanted children
and his wife didn't, and it in her mind he
has a hard time standing up to her. And so
(18:20):
they have some communication going on. Yes, they do. They
communicate quite a bit, which I'm happy for, and they
support each other quite a bit before this. When you
wanted to bring something up to them when they were younger,
were they receptive to that? I think so. Maybe I
was a little bit, you know, crowing up with chores
(18:43):
and things like that. I'd say, if you think you
have a hard time, you know, I'll take you to
Tijuana and then you'll see what a hard time was like,
you know. So maybe when there were issues, instead of
listening and giving them empathetic feedback, it was more like
I grew up and so I don't know why you're complaining.
Maybe I wasn't as sympathetic as I could have been
(19:04):
when they were growing up, Maria. Have things changed in
the dynamic between you and your son and daughter since
your husband died? How did they take his passing and
did that change anything for the three of you? I
think so. I think that they thought their dad was
(19:26):
very authoritarian and rigid in many ways, and I think
the three of us are trying to work on issues,
whereas I think if my husband were still alive, we
might not be discussing these issues so much. What are
some of the other issues that you are trying to
work on as a family. Well, both of my children
(19:52):
have gone through difficult times with drinking, and my daughter
lost her job because of it and she went into
outpatient for a while. And so I wonder about was
(20:15):
I clueless when they were in high school? Why didn't
I talk to them more about it? Because both my
father and my father in law were alcoholics, and my
daughter said to me, well, why didn't you ever bring
that up? And I guess I didn't realize how much
power alcohol had in their lives. They're both sober and
(20:38):
going to AA right now, and they have sponsors. So
I guess I'm also trying to understand how was I
not there. I was there when they were growing up.
In fact, I felt like I was very responsible in
staying home and not going away so the kids couldn't
have parties. I guess I didn't understand where the drink
(21:00):
came from. And I think through the therapy that I'm doing.
I'm understanding that a little bit more, But of course
I feel guilty that maybe I wasn't a sympathetic when
they were growing up or fully present or I mean,
we were always together in terms of eating dinner together,
taking vacations together, celebrating the holidays together, but obviously there
(21:23):
were things that they felt they needed alcohol to escape from.
Do you know when the drinking problems began and how
long they've been in recovery. Yes, my son's been sober
for at least a year and my daughter since February
of this year. She had a relapse since then and
(21:46):
I went to be with her. But they're both working
really hard on it, and I know that they're much
happier being sober. How long have they been struggling with alcoholism? Well,
I didn't realize it, but according to my daughter, it
started in high school for her. I think it was
more college for my son, sort of like you go
(22:08):
away to school and party, party, party, although he said
he drank in high school, but I never really saw that.
If they started in high school and in college, it's
a lot of years of drinking. And they both coincidentally
became so around the same time, which is roughly around
the same time that your husband died. With those things related,
(22:33):
it could be I think they both had DUIs. It
was sort of like the consequences of life were coming
at them pretty strong. I didn't know the extent of
their drinking problems until more recently, so obviously they were
hiding it from me. I mean, they both did come
out and tell me about their DUIs, and I didn't
(22:56):
judge them or anything. I just tried to listen to them.
But for my daughters, you kept drinking. It could be
about their dad dying. Maybe they're taking stock of their life.
I think it was actually in the process before that happened.
But sometimes it takes a shock to maybe throw you
out of your comfort zone. You know, when you say
(23:18):
they told you about the DUIs and you didn't judge
them and you just listened. I feel like there's some
confusion for you around what it means to be able
to be present for somebody without being intrusive. Your kids
have told you that they got these dus. Your son said,
(23:39):
just by the way, I want to let you know
that I'm going to couples counseling with my wife, and
you said that. Your response to these things has been
to just hear what they had to say. But I
wonder if underneath this giving you of information is actually
a request for help, and that they actually do want
(24:00):
to hear what you think, or maybe they want some
kind of help that they're not able to voice. And
I wonder if all of you in some way have
trouble really being direct with each other about what you're
trying to communicate. And even with your son's wife, if
they've been married for about five years and he got
(24:21):
sober about a year ago, he's been struggling with this
addiction throughout the marriage, and it could be that one
of the reasons she's hesitant to have children is that
she doesn't feel like he's in a place to be
a father right now. But nobody's talking about this. I
(24:44):
think that's very sound. I think what you're saying is accurate.
I would be worried too if I was married to
him and I saw that he was having this major issue.
How are they feeling about you? Often when a doubt
children lose a parent, they very much worry about the
(25:04):
other parent. Have they expressed any concern for you? What's
their feelings about how you're doing? Well, yeah, they are
worried about me, and I think they do worry about
how I am grieving and how I'm dealing with being alone.
They were the ones who encouraged me to start seeing someone,
(25:27):
they being both well. I think initially my son was
really wanting me to do it, and I was staying
with my daughter at the time, and I was going
to wait until I got back home, and then I
thought maybe I should start this counseling right now, so
I did, and I think they were really happy to
(25:50):
hear that. You know, what was interesting, Maria, is that
therapy for most people is intensely personal. And your son
shares with you that he's in couples counseling. He encourages
you to go to therapy, is concerned about how you're doing,
and so, on the one hand, there's this avenue of
(26:11):
communication which sounds quite open. On the one hand, all
of those are coming from him to you and not
necessarily from you to him. In other words, you want
to have a deeper discussion, but you really hold back.
It certainly sounds like he's opening some doors for you
(26:32):
to come through in terms of bringing up certain topics
like therapy, like feelings I agree. I guess it's just
hard to talk about these things. But are you owning
that it's hard for you. You make it sound like
it's hard for him, and I'm wondering who it's hard for. Well,
(26:53):
I think it's hard for me too. It's funny I
can say it to a friend, right, I want to
hear what it is? What is it that if you
were able to say how you feel, I wonder if
you're even able to say it to yourself in full,
not just the thing about, oh, it would be nice
(27:13):
to have grandchildren, but all the feelings about how you're
worried that your son's marriage replicates your own a little bit,
where he's in the role that you were in where
you felt sort of railroaded a lot and sort of controlled,
and we don't know if that's true. This is just
something that your daughter has expressed, But this is your
(27:34):
worry because you went through so many years like that
and you are worried that your son might be experiencing
something similar. And then there's a part of you that
just wants to have grandchildren because it's fun. And then
there's the part two of maybe you imagined your son
(27:54):
as a father one day, and maybe you really enjoyed
the experience of being a parent. It's hard to imagine
the loss for your son if he does want kids,
of not having that richness, not having that experience of
having kids. If it is indeed something that he wants,
but that he would be giving up for whatever reasons
(28:18):
in the marriage. And so could you tell us how
you feel about this? Well? I do worry that if
he wants a child and he can't have a child,
then how does that feel when you grow up and
you're old someday and you don't have anybody to comfort you.
I mean, I have my children to comfort me. I
(28:39):
find it unimaginable to understand not having children, I really do.
What did you love about having children? Oh my gosh,
they were just so adorable, you know, kissing them, feeling
their warm skin, being close to them, hugging them. In fact,
this was a conversation I just had recent me with
(29:01):
my daughter in law. She asked me, did people say
I love you a lot growing up? And I said,
not really, And it was a decision I made that
when I had children, I was going to let them
know I love them a lot. Why did she bring
that up? That's an interesting question to ask you. I
know this came totally out of the blue. This happened
(29:22):
two days ago. She sent me a voice memo and said,
my friend and I were talking about do you say
I love you a lot? In your family? How do
you talk to your children about this? So I got
in touch with her and I said, we didn't say
it much growing up. Growing up was more like do
your chores get good grades? You can go to college. Clearly,
(29:45):
what she's asking about is something between her and your
son and his ability to express I love you. I
would imagine, you know, in some way, and if he's
having trouble doing that, she's calling you and she's saying, hey,
do guys do that when he was growing up? Okay, yeah,
I would think he'd be able to say it to
(30:07):
her because I just loved, you know, singing to them,
reading to them, taking them to the playground. In fact,
I was even thinking about homeschooling them because I really
wanted everything just to be wonderful for them. And sometimes
you send them off to school and you know, everything
goes haywire. I can hear how much you loved raising
(30:29):
your kids, and yet there wasn't a lot of I
love you. You expressed your love in other ways, the hugging,
the kissing, snuggling, the being present for them, all of that.
But it's interesting that, as this whole conversation is about
having a voice and being able to directly communicate with
(30:50):
people and even something as simple and yet complicated as love,
it was hard to say those three words I love you,
and now you do. And I think that there's something
that's happening in the dynamic of the family that is
going to give you space to do something different in
(31:15):
the situation with your son. So, Maria, we do have
some advice for you, and what would like you to
do is would like you to talk with your son
and with your daughter at the same time, because we
(31:40):
think there needs to be another family meeting, and would
like you to start by mentioning to both of them
that your daughter in law called you to ask if
you used to say I love you when the kids
were growing up, and that got you thinking about how
much you love them when they were kids, and how
(32:01):
much you enjoyed them, and how much you wanted to
protect them so much so that you thought of homeschooling them.
Yet you didn't say I love you much verbally at
that time, and that you didn't voice that to them
as much as you felt it. You didn't use your
voice enough when they were younger. You didn't use it
(32:23):
to stand up for yourself with your husband, and perhaps
even to stand up for them with their father, who
you described as authoritarian. You didn't use it to tell
them about the history of alcoholism in the family. And
you're saying that to them now because you've been going
(32:45):
to therapy and you've been working on finding your voice
and using your voice, and that's something that you want
to be able to do more now, right And so
we were thinking about in this meeting having you say
to your daughter, you know, I haven't used my voice
(33:09):
with the two of you, and I wonder how you
feel about the relationship that you're in, and I wonder
how you feel about the struggle that you're having with alcohol,
and to say to your son, I wonder about how
your sobriety is going, and I wonder about how you
(33:33):
feel about fatherhood and whether that's something that you've always
wanted but you feel like you're not in a position
to do because you're going through recovery right now, or
if it's something that doesn't matter as much to you
as maybe I'm imagining it does. And you can say
(33:53):
to them that I wonder if you've been as afraid
to talk to me as I have been to talk
to you. And I want us as a family to
be able to talk about hard things. And I wonder
how the both of you feel about this idea that
(34:14):
maybe we can all use our voices more and be
more direct with each other and open up those lines
of communication in a way that we haven't really established
in our family. And you'll see how they respond to this.
But most important, Maria, is we want to know how
(34:35):
you feel having had that conversation with them. We want
to know what was it like to use your voice
with them in a direct way, and to say all
of these things to them that you've been thinking but
haven't directly expressed to them, and to request that these
lines of communication opened so that what happened in the
(34:56):
past around people not being able to use their voices
doesn't get repeated now, grandchild or no grandchild, And now
to be able to say, I want to create a
culture of openness, of using our voices, of not being
shut down, whether that's feeling like they can't talk to you,
or feeling like they don't know how to talk to
(35:18):
their partners and use their voices with their partners. And
we want to know how that felt for you to
finally open that door as a start in this conversation.
How does that sound to you, Maria, sounds wonderful. I'm
imagining myself opening a door or is we're speaking? Okay,
(35:42):
that's great. It might be a little scary. But the
other thing you know that we had in mind here
is that your daughter in law called you to ask
about something that was related to her husband, and your
daughter tells you what her brother and your son is
actually thinking because he doesn't tell you directly. There's there's
so many kinds of communications that are not direct, and
(36:03):
especially when there's alcoholism involved, honesty and directness is really
really important. And so this is important for them as
much as it is for you, as much it is
is for the entire family and all the communication between
all of you. I'd be happy to do that. Great.
We look forward to hearing how it goes. I really
(36:26):
appreciate you taking the time to discuss this issue with me.
We know you have a voice because we heard it,
and so that's the voice that we want you to
take into this conversation with them. Okay, you're ready. I'm ready.
(36:53):
I have to admit I am not sure how it's
going to go in terms of how this is going
to be received by Maria's son and daughter, But I
do know that what's important here is for her to
find her own voice, and by merit of having this conversation,
she will be doing that. And even if they don't
(37:14):
respond in the moment, I think what she's doing is
she is shifting something in this dynamic in the family
where everything was happening indirectly. She never mentioned in her
letter the elephant in the room that the whole time
that he's been married, he's been struggling with this addiction,
and maybe that has some impact on his readiness to
(37:37):
be a father. This whole dilemma, to me, was really
less a dilemma about grandchildren and mour a dilemma about
finding one's voice. And she's been starting to find hers,
and I think she's modeling for her kids by having
this conversation how they can find theirs. I think for
(37:59):
her kids, because they're struggling with alcoholism, one thing that's
really important for them mis directness, and so her being
so direct, even if it takes them a while to
appreciate it will be very useful for them. I agree,
So I think it's crossed for her. You're listening to
(38:26):
Dear Therapist from my Heart Radio. We'll be back after
a quick break. So guy, we got the voicemail from Maria.
Oh good, that session went in a different direction than
(38:46):
I was expecting. So let's hear it. Hi, this is Maria.
I spoke with my children since I spoke with the
two of you, and I also had a session with
my therapy pissed in between. She suggested that I write
things down in an email that I wanted to go
(39:07):
over with my children, because then, she said, you're able
to formulate your thoughts, you can look at them, you
can reflect on them and see if there's something you
want to change or add, And so that's what I did. Also,
sometimes when I talked to my children, the two of
them together, I almost feel a little flat footed. It's
(39:30):
hard to talk and think at the same time. And
I wanted them also to have these thoughts in the
email before we talked, in case they had any questions
and that sort of thing. And basically what I told
them was I've loved them ever since before they were born,
(39:51):
and how I made a conscious decision to make sure
that they knew they were loved because I didn't feel
that much love in my birth family. There weren't a
lot of I love yous and hugging. It was more
about chores and getting your homework done. It was an
authoritarian family, and I think some of those same patterns
(40:14):
got repeated as they were growing up because my husband
was authoritarian and maybe I didn't have enough of my
own voice. And I also expressed that in the email
and told them I was hoping that they would feel
they had a voice in their relationships. I didn't want
(40:36):
them to repeat some of the same mistakes I made.
They loved the letter. They said they were very touched
by it. We talked about it briefly in our conversation,
and one of the things that came up was my
son said he didn't really want to rehash the whole
(40:56):
past and hold on to judgments and blame, and I said,
I totally agree with you. And so I was a
very constructive conversation and doing the email and writing it
down ahead of time allowed me to be very focused
on exactly what I wanted to communicate with them, and
(41:17):
it went really well. So I'm feeling very happy. And
I had a lot of trepidation before the conversation, and
I addressed that in the letter. I said, I want
to be a part of your lives. I want you
to use me as a sounding block. I want you
(41:38):
to come to me with questions if you have them.
I want you to make your own decisions, but I'm
going to be here for you if that's what you like.
So I think it was a very good conversation and
it went really well. What I love about Maria's voicemail
(41:58):
was that her letter was really about this worry about
having grandchildren or not having grandchildren, and whether her son
was able to voice that in his marriage, and what
it became about was a whole family dynamic between her
and her two children and saying all of these things
that had been unspoken about the authoritarian household, her past,
(42:22):
their father, and her hope that they will have a
voice both in their relationships and with her I moved
two minds about it, to be honest with you, because
it sounds like it went well. It sounds like she
conveyed the messages she needed to convey. The fact though
that it was most of it done via the email
(42:45):
and they only had a brief conversation about it. And
even in that brief conversation, the sun said, I don't
want to rehash the past too much. Leaves me wondering
still whether the next time she needs to have a
direct dcation with them about something that's going on, she
will feel comfortable enough to do it, whether her son
or her daughter, which we didn't hear much about, will
(43:07):
accept it. In other words, when we ask people to
have a conversation, it's because we need them to make
the precedent of this being something we talk about, and
an email is not exactly the same. I feel like
it's a great start. I feel like sometimes just opening
up that line of communication, especially when it's so hard
(43:29):
for you and you have no practice doing this face
to face, is a start. I hope that, like you said,
it doesn't become the only way that they communicate. But
I do feel like she said things that they needed
to hear. Both of them have their issues with addiction,
and I feel like one of the big things with
addiction is people not talking about what needs to be
(43:51):
spoken about. And I also, in my mind flagged what
you flagged about the sun, saying I don't really want
to talk about the past. And I think that that
will maybe come with time. He's going to have to
deal with his past if he's going to deal with
his addiction. But I think as a first step, I'm
really really proud of her, and I think it had
(44:13):
a really positive effect on the three of them. One
last thought is that I would always defer to a
therapist who knows Maria obviously much better than we do.
And when she's saying to her, Okay, that was the advice,
but maybe do it in writing first, she might know
her well enough to know that that is likely to
go better than if she were to do it just
verbally on a call. To that end, I think she
(44:36):
did a magnificent job. If she's listening, what I would
suggest to her is, the next time there's something on
your mind that you want to talk to your son
or your daughter about, please don't hesitate. Use the momentum
you've created with the email and the conversation to practice
and to establish step two of And here is me
(44:57):
bringing stuff up. Like I said, I would Yeah. I
think momentum is the keyword here, because I think she
got the ball rolling and now she's got to keep
it rolling. Hey, fellow travelers, if you've used any of
our advice from the podcast in your own life, send
us a quick voice memo to Lori and Guy at
(45:18):
iHeartMedia dot com and tell us about it. We may
include it in a future show. Thank you so much
for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please take a
moment to rate and review it. You can follow us
both online. I'm at Lori Gottlieb dot com and you
can follow me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb I or
on Instagram at Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author. And I'm at
(45:41):
Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at Guywinch.
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
big or small, email us at Lorie and Guy at
iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis, were produced
and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to Samuel Benefield
(46:01):
and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Currek. Next week,
a high school student feels the pressure of academic achievement,
college applications, and extracurricular activities, while also trying to maintain
a sense of self. Like the top five things that
make me happy at the end of the day. I
do think a big part of it would be social too.
I do find happiness in doing well in school, but
(46:24):
I also do appreciate the connection. It's just I feel
like there's two sides of me that are kind of
battling for the time to find those interactions that make
me happy. Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
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