September 10, 2024 • 45 mins
This week, a high school student struggles to manage the pressure to achieve without losing her sense of self. We help her to see that when you have balance in your life, it doesn't make you less productive. It actually makes you function better as a whole, and that this will be even more true as she grows into adulthood.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy column for Ted. And this is Dear Therapists. This week,
a high school student struggles with the intense pressure to
achieve while also questioning what success really means. I do
(00:26):
feel like the way that, like the college system, that
everything is set up is that you kind of have
to go through this in your teenage years, like there's
not really much time for taking it easier, just like
taking a step back, especially because I know so many
other kids are competing. It's just I do think Guy
inderstid it makes me happy. I just I don't know
(00:48):
if I'm able to do that to reach my goals,
listen in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process.
Dea Therapists is emational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice,
and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
(01:10):
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
you are agreeing to let Ihart Media use it in
partter and fall, and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hey guy, Hi Laurie, So where are
(01:31):
we going this week? We are going back to high school? Oh,
high school? That should be interesting. Yeah, the acne is
coming out already. Let me read you the letter. Dear therapists.
I'm a high school junior and the pressures of college
acceptance are already weighing down on me. I feel like
I'm blindly applying to any leadership position there is, and
(01:53):
that means for every time I'm chosen, there's at least
five times I'm not. I'm worried I've become numb to
rejection and not fully reaping its benefits. But on the
other hand, I feel like I turn into a green
eyed monster every time. How do I find the happy
medium when it comes to rejection, and more importantly, how
do I find the things that truly matter to me,
not just what will look good on my college app
(02:15):
Thanks Libby Well. First of all, I hope Libby knows
that she is not alone in this. This is very
common for high schoolers. Today, unfortunately, to experience this kind
of pressure and to feel it odds with who they
are and what they want in the service of creating
a resume for college. And I really think that we're
(02:37):
not doing a benefit to high schoolers today who are
in this real rat race of competition, because if you
think about it, they spend so many hours tethered to
their desks, and if we replace their laptops with the
sewing machine, we'd be like, oh, my goodness, that's a sweatshop.
But it's an academic sweatshop. And it's really concerning because
it's not leaving them enough time to have a life
(02:58):
and what they miss out on and is all of
the tasks develop mentally that really for a healthy human
need to happen during that time. So let's go talk
to her and find out a little bit more about
what she's going through. Absolutely, you're listening to Deer Therapists
from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break. I'm
(03:26):
Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is Deer Therapists.
So Hi Libby, Hi, nice to meet you, guys. Hi Livy,
it's great to meet you two. Your letter was about
the college application process and all these leadership positions that
you're trying to get so that you have the extra
curriculus and all of that. Can you tell us what
a typical week looks like for you in terms of
(03:47):
how busy you are, what you are doing. I would
love to get a sense of the stresses that you're
dealing with, well beyond the academic side of things, where
my courseload is pretty heavy on the leadership. I think
five different clubs at my school, and two of them
are extremely prominent, So I usually have about like three
(04:08):
meetings a week with that along with other projects. And
I also volunteer at the food bank eight hours every Saturday,
so that's just my time. I'm curious to know of
those five extracurriculars that you participate in, which ones bring
you joy. I love going to the food bank, I do.
(04:32):
I feel like that's the one where it's kind of
me time, but I'm also being productive at the same time.
But I also, beyond the hard work it takes, I
do enjoy feeling like I'm actively making a change in
my school. Like one of them is a club that
promotes like diversity and inclusion and it's really a good
(04:55):
feeling to know that I'm actually making a dent in
atmosphere at my school. That's what you mentioned me time
that the food bank feels like me time? Yeah, is
there any actual me time? Like how much me time
do you have? I don't know, but I think in
terms of actual metime, I think Sunday evenings are kind
(05:18):
of it for me and that I watch a show
I view with my dog. So paint us a picture
that if Sunday evenings that's the only me time? What
are you doing? Saturday day, Saturday night, Friday night, Sunday day?
Where are your weekends? What are you doing? It's a
lot of homework. I really do try to like put
(05:41):
a lot of effort into my school work, so that
takes a lot of time behind the scenes, and I
won't feel good about myself unless I really get out
of the way. So it's usually Sunday where I've gotten
it all done. And this pressure that you're feeling to
build a resume, where is that coming from? Is that
(06:03):
coming from the school environment, Is that coming from your parents?
Is that something that you've always held yourself to those
kinds of standards. What is the end goal here getting
into a certain kind of college, which leads you to what,
which leads you to what? So help us understand your mindset.
I think it's always mostly been me. I've always been
(06:25):
very competitive. But then you can put in my environment
a little bit too, and that both my parents have
been successful in life, and the competition that my school breeds,
and just like the kind of kids I feel like
I'm surrounded by definitely induced me to try even harder.
So beyond getting into a good school, are the specific
(06:47):
schools in mind, the specific majors you have in mind
that you want to study, your specific career parts. You know,
you just want to give yourself the best options possible. Yeah,
I'm not naive enough to think that my life is
perfect if I get an acceptance letter to like a
top college, but I do feel like it's an important
step on the way to having a good career, feeling
(07:10):
successful every day or something. Yeah, I don't really know
what the goal is. I just think if I feel
satisfied with myself, I will have achieved that. When you
talk about feeling satisfied with yourself, you talked about two
of your extracurriculars. They are meaningful to you the food bank,
and then you're working on this diversity and inclusion initiative
(07:32):
at your school. So the other three are you doing
those for your resume or you're doing those because your
heart wants to do them. I do enjoy the other
ones quite a bit. One of them is a woman
empowerment club too, and I do enjoy that one a lot.
I lump that one in with the others, but I
think the two other clubs, it does kind of feel
like I'm kind of taking up this space because I
(07:53):
know it's very competitive. So and other guidance counselors or
it is a general wisdom around the school says you
need at least four or five clubs. You need that
many extra curriculas. In other words, you would think that
just the two that you mentioned in the extra one
you threw in that sounds good. So is that just
because of what everyone else is doing? Why so many?
(08:16):
If I want to succeed and be among the most
accomplished in my class, that's just a necessity to it's leadership,
and it's important to have that. You use the word accomplished,
And I want to help unpack for a minute what
(08:36):
your definition is of accomplishment and success, because as I'm
hearing this, I'm thinking about, well, you're doing these activities
that don't really mean that much to you, at least
two of them, and you're just doing them to have
something on your resume that might look good for colleges.
But it feels very empty. And I think that's why
(08:57):
you wrote to us. I mean, if you were really
engaged in all of your activity, we never would have
received your letter. So help us understand what accomplishment and
success mean to you. It's interesting because I think my
number one goal in life is to be happy, but
I also think that to make myself happy, I have
(09:18):
to feel like I am succeeding, and succeeding means like
I'm getting the great I want on a test. Have
you heard about the difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.
I do not think I have so Intrinsic motivation is
something where the motivation comes from inside of you, like
(09:39):
working at the food bank or working on a diversity
initiative at your school. That's something that's very meaningful to you.
Women empowerment also seems like that's meaningful to you, But
the other ones you're saying you're just basically building a
resume with them. That's extrinsic motivation. That's saying something outside
of me, whether it's a college system, but you have
(10:03):
this idea that there is some reason outside of you
that you need to be doing these things that don't
really feed you or nourish you. And you said, well,
I'm happy if I get a certain grade. These extrinsic
markers of success make you happy. And what I want
to challenge you on is that most people who find happiness,
(10:24):
and by that I mean people who are content, because
happy is sort of like joy. It's a feeling that
comes and goes like any other feeling, sadness, anxiety, they
go in and out like weather systems. But a feeling
of overall contentness in life comes from meaning connection. And
that's the part where I think you're setting yourself on
a dangerous path. So you're getting your happiness from a
(10:49):
grade or something that's on your resume, and I just
don't think that that's going to make you happy in
the long run. I guess I really boiled out, like
I've worked on like the top five things that make
me happy at the end of the day. I do
think a big part of it would be social too.
I do find happiness and doing well in school, but
(11:09):
I also depreciate connection. It's just I feel like there's
two sides of me that are kind of battling for
the time to find those interactions that make me happy. Well,
I'm glad there's connection. But the difference between intrinsic and
external motivation might be it makes me happy to try
my best and to have this growth mindset where I'm
(11:32):
learning and I'm growing even if I don't get the
highest grade, and I'll learn something from that and maybe
next time I'll do better. As opposed to what did
everybody else get? Oh my gosh, I got a ninety eight.
Someone else got in ninety nine, right, and you're laughing
because this is what you're experiencing. As opposed to, Wow,
I learned a lot when I was studying for this test,
or that was really interesting to me. Or I pushed
(11:53):
myself to work hard. That's intrinsic motivation. Extrinsic motivation is
what great am I going to get? Same with your extracurriculars,
it's I really enjoy doing this activity, or it's very
meaningful to me there's passion and purpose behind it, as
opposed to I became president of this club and that's
going to look good on my resume. Yeah, I wholeheartedly
(12:16):
agree with that. It's just I can't help but feel
a bit guilty if I do prioritize that the less
artificial happiness and that I do feel like the way that,
like the college system and everything is kind of set
up is that you kind of have to go through
this in your teenage years, like there's not really much
(12:37):
time for taking it easier, just like taking a step back,
especially because I know so many other kids are competing.
It's just I do the guy understand it makes me happy.
I just I don't know if I'm able to do
that to reach my goals. You know, we talk about
the work life balance, and we usually mean the workplace
and the life balance, but the study life balance is
(12:58):
exactly the same as the work life balance. It really
means how many hours are you dedicating to your career
present of future versus the connections. Small indulgences like on
the Sunday evenings, you allow yourself to watch a show
and I hope you enjoy it, but that's very little
that you're allowing yourself. And part of the concern about
that is that balance. The way it's set up right
(13:21):
now is two weighted in the favor of the work component,
and it doesn't end once you get into college because
the mindset that you have right now will be carried
over into well. But then I want to go to
graduate school or get the best internship or get the
best job, so can't slack off now, and then you
get the best job, or you go to graduate school
and can't slack off now. And this is what happens
(13:42):
to people. They start in high school and probably you
started before, but you set the bar really really high,
and then you focus so much on that val you
take your eye of how you're doing, and that results
in feeling very, very stressed out. But this is the
right time for high school students to catch its huge competition.
(14:02):
But they're probably some tweaks that need to be done
that balance things out a little bit more. If you
had a little bit more time, if you could invent
five more hours in the week that you didn't have
to dedicate to the getting into college thing, what would
you do with those hours? Five hour hours in the week.
(14:23):
And I don't think the answer looking for is put
another five hour system. Well I don't think that's the
answer you're looking for, Libby. Yeah, you're right, because it
wouldn't be a very enjoyable five hours. But that is
where your mind went first. I mean that's my point, right,
that your mind like, oh, I could do so much
more stuff. There's one more leadership thing. But that's the right.
(14:45):
But I am curious if it were just for you,
just for your own joy satisfaction, nothing that counts for anything.
What would you do if I'm allowed to do this,
I'd probably break up an hour for each of the
five days of the weekdays. I would put it at
sunset time and I would go on a bike ride
(15:06):
and I would sit and I would I don't know,
I scream and watch the sunset. Yes, that sounds amazing.
Guy was talking about how this mindset that you have
won't end once you get to college, and a lot
of kids in high school think about college is the prize,
(15:28):
you know, if I can just get that acceptance letter,
if I can just get into that college, and then
they don't really think about what happens. All they think
about is, here's the school I want to go. To
or here are the three top schools that I want
to go to, and I have to put all of
my energies into getting into those schools. And if I
get into one of those schools, I'm done. And so
(15:50):
going back to intrinsic motivation, what is your intrinsic motivation
for wanting to get into a certain kind of college.
What do you think that will do for you and
your life satisfaction. I think it's a pretty good marker
of how much I would have sacrificed over like maybe
(16:13):
these past four years at high school, or what will
it be these past four years? I know that myself
in the future will it'll will be like a very
big symbol of all my hard work. And if I
it would just show like some of my character too,
Like if I worked hard for this goal, I've reached it,
and that means I could reach more goals in the future.
(16:35):
And what if your goal in high school when you
look back later, you said, you know what I did
in high school is I worked really hard and I
focused on things that mattered to me, and I got
into a good college, maybe not the one, And you
did it that way and you met lots of friends
you were involved in tons of activities that meant something
(16:57):
to you. You We're prepared for the kind of career
you wanted. You ended up having the kinds of relationships
that you wanted. Would you look back and be disappointed
in yourself? Absolutely not. Somehow I feel like that will
be my life. Like I will learn this lesson eventually,
but right now I couldn't help. But when you're saying that,
(17:20):
think of like a little knacking voice in the back
of my mind that was saying like you could have
had more? So what is the more that you could
have had? Let's just use the symbol of colleges. Let's
say we're talking about Harvard, Yale, Stamford, whatever, going to
Harvard Deal Stamford as opposed to a really really good
(17:40):
school that isn't Harvardale Stamford. What is the more that
you think you would have at Harvarddale or Stamford. I
just feel like one is a bigger symbol, unfortunately postionable
to whom, maybe to me and maybe to everybody else too.
It's just I'm so on the moment right now of
working hard, skipping out the metime, etc. That I want
(18:02):
it to make me come in number one, and even
if that's just like the US News ranking, it is
how other people view it. I want my hard work
to reflect a gold medal, not silver. It sounds like
you're saying I need to know that I couldn't do that,
and once I get into number one, then I can
maybe relax a little bit more because I proved it
(18:24):
to myself, so then I'll be able to be a
little less goal driven. I especially feel like in today's culture,
what college you go to is like one of the
biggest things. Like if I don't do as well in
that school, I can always use that network of yes,
I went there. And it's unfortunate that its structured that way,
(18:44):
but I do feel like it is important, especially if
I was applying for future jobs and everything. It is
an important factor, and I don't want to ignore it.
I just want to help you with some reality checking
on that is that And it's hard to see because
you're in the middle of all of these kids who
(19:05):
have the same beliefs, and all of these parents, by
the way, in your community, I'm sure have the same
beliefs that you have. But I want to zoom out
a little bit and give you the perspective from decades
down the line, which is that every study shows that
where you went to college, whether you went to an
Ivy League college or you didn't, has no impact on
(19:27):
your future happiness in life. And so you feel like
if I have that, and I can carry that around
for the rest of my life. I went to Harvard,
I went to Stanford, I went to Yale, then somehow
that protects you and provides a certain kind of life
for you that I think is a fiction, because there
(19:51):
are just as many people from those schools who are
depressed and anxious and unhappy and don't meet their were
goals then people who don't. And so let's just say,
for the sake of argument that these studies are right,
that there is no difference in happiness decades later between
(20:13):
the people who went to the number one school versus
the people who went to the very good schools and
were happy at those schools. What is your goal, then,
What is the purpose of all of this, of not
taking those bike rides, of not watching the sunset? I
don't know. I don't really quite know what the goal is.
I just know that if I reached this one, it'll
(20:36):
just feel I don't know, like, I'm on the right
I'm on the right path. And that's why we're a
little bit worried, because because they are looking at each
other because you have this fantasy. And it's not just
about schools, by the way. So in life, it's like,
if I get this one job, if I have this
(20:58):
amount of money, at that point, I will inoculate myself
from you know, sort of future unhappiness. Right, And the
research about money is just the same as the research
about viv leagues that beyond a certain income, which is
comparatively low, it doesn't make a difference to happiness at all. Yeah,
(21:19):
And so what worries us is this idea that you're
going to get into this school, and you're going to
get there, and you're going to go, oh wait, I
sacrifice my childhood and my adolescence for this really and
for a while, it will protect you because every time
you go somewhere, you'll get to say, yeah, I go
(21:40):
to whatever school, or you know, when you graduate, yeah
I graduated from this school. But it's going to start
to feel empty. At a certain point. It will start
to mean a lot less to you and equally importantly
to the people around you. So all of the ways
that right now this stuff means so much when people
are like, where do you get into school? Where you
go into school, that means a lot. It's going to
(22:03):
mean almost nothing later on in life, you know, it'll
be part of I think the thinking that you have
that's problematic, but a lot of people in your position have,
is that it feels like going from one hundred percent
effort to ninety eight percent effort to ninety seven percent
effort will sabotage your goals entirely. So it's either sunset
(22:28):
or hord. You can't have both. And that's a real
problem with the thinking because that's absolutely incorrect. And I
think that if you were to speak to people who
consider themselves successful later in life, they will point to
the mix they have these professional goals, and equally important
(22:48):
for them is to have a life, is to do
the things that make them happy, is to do the
things that give them meaning, which is then about personal enrichment,
connections and family and friendships and one of those things.
And I think that the feeling is and this is
the feeling that I think is troubling me with you,
is that you really feel like no, but right now
it has to be one hundred percent, and I have
(23:10):
to put on hold all my other wants and needs
other than Sunday watching the show for a little bit.
And that is the thinking that I think is too extreme,
because success means you have both well, right, I think
when we talk about success, you can have all of
these very impressive extracurriculars and the grades that you want
(23:30):
to have. But if the cost is stress or depression,
or anxiety or envy all the time, or this feeling
of never being good enough compared to your classmates, I
don't know that that's a healthy definition of success, and
I don't know that it's the kind of success that
you should aspire to. It's just it's so hard to
(23:54):
change my way of thinking because when you guys are
saying this, I am reminded of what I have honestly thought,
is that I will be likely happier socially, I will
feel less like the toxic environment. But it's just so
hard to unlearn that wanting the best, especially because I
(24:15):
am in that environment right now. So I can help,
but wonder if I could have both? So Libby what
guy said earlier I think is really important, which is
that nobody's saying, go from one hundred and ten percent
effort to eighty percent effort. He was talking about going
to like a ninety eight, and I think what he
meant to wasn't a ninety eight. And the things you
(24:36):
care about, the things you care about, put in one
hundred and ten percent effort because you care. Guy and
I we put in one hundred and ten percent effort
into the things that really matter to us. We will
sacrifice lots of things for the things that really matter
to us but matter to us intrinsically. But to put
(24:57):
in one hundred and ten percent effort into some thing
that doesn't mean something to us, that is where we
want to open up a little door for you and
to help you think about. Even in this conversation, those
two extracurriculars that you said, well, those are leadership positions,
and at my school those look really good on a resume.
(25:20):
I think that when you get to college, what makes
for success are the people who are whole human beings
who really learned something about themselves as they were going
through this developmental phase. Those people who say, I know
what's important to me, and I'm going to put a
lot of effort into what's important to me. I'm going
to be authentic. And it's even possible that your plan
(25:43):
is backfiring because I think that the colleges are pretty
aware of what's authentic and what's not. And you're kind
of rolling your eyes a little bit there, But I
want to tell you that I think they're getting much
better at that. They're like, wait a minute, this person
is doing five extracurriculars, and they're doing this and that
(26:04):
and the other thing, and they're also getting the top grades.
And I have to wonder, where's this person's true passion?
Who is this person? Yeah, I absolutely understand that. I
have to say I was thinking of like the kids
I know who they run clubs, like I don't even know,
(26:25):
like your research of kidney transplant or something, And I
seriously doubt sixteen year olds are interested in that. If
you ask any of my friends or any of my classmates,
I would feel like they would describe me as that person.
I feel like that's a big part of my quote
unquote brands. You use the word brand, okay, that that's
part of your brand. And I think right there, you're
(26:47):
looking for a brand of a college. You're not looking
for the place where you will thrive. You are simply saying, oh,
I want the Harvard brand or whatever your dream is,
as opposed to where will I act actually thrive. And
you're looking at how people perceive you. That's your brand,
that's not your essence. And in life, what's going to
(27:09):
be important in terms of your happiness is what is
your authentic essence, not what is your brand. I can
say for myself that when I was in high school,
I felt like if I didn't do all of the
things that I could do, even if they didn't make
me happy or weren't fulfilling to me, that people would
perceive me as less accomplished. People would perceive me as
(27:30):
less in the game. If I didn't get the top
score on a test, then people would think I was
less smart because I could have gotten a higher score.
But I decided to go take that bike ride and
look at the sunset, and what I found was it
didn't matter what people thought of me because I was
making myself miserable. And I think that the mindset is, well,
(27:52):
it's only four years, so I can live miserably for
four years. Four years matters not just because of those
four years, but because it forms who you are going forward.
That's true. When you think about your brand, I want
you to think seriously about what you value in yourself
(28:13):
and not what others might value about you, and to
be able to separate that out, because right now they
are so enmeshed. Yeah, the thing is, those things are
important to me, but I feel like I can't let
up too, Like I need to have that accomplished version
of myself. And then I also am trying to work
(28:34):
on that other person. If you describe the way you
are right now, and you compare that to describing the
exact same person with one tweak that the second version
of Livy only does three clubs rather than five, and
she spends an hour every day taking a bike ride,
watching the sunset, sometimes having some ice cream. Sometimes it's
(28:56):
been doing some sketching, sometimes just listening to music. She
spends an hour of quality time with herself every day
doing things that just make her smile. Which one is
most successful of those two Libbies? The second one, It
just it just it just clicked for me. It just
(29:16):
clicked for me. And who do you like better? Libby
one who does things that don't really mean that much
to her, but she's trying to game the system or
Libby two who's really accomplished, works really hard, gets really
good grades, participates in activities that mean something to her.
She wants to make the world a better place, and
(29:39):
she also values her social connections and she values herself.
I like the second one. Yeah, that's crazy. I've always
thought that like essential, like tenant of and I think
right around when I wrote to you guys, I was
thinking a lot of like what rejection is and what
success is, And something I wrote down was successful people
(30:04):
do all the things unsuccessful people don't want to do. Now,
I don't know if that's true. Look, there's always more
you can do. That's certainly going to be true. In college,
there was always another chapter you can read, another paper,
you can study, you know, the round. The trick then
is to know where to set the limit and to
know how to prioritize some other things so you are
(30:27):
clear about the social being important. The third aspect is
again your quality of life. Like you know, people will
sometimes say, oh, I just took a bath for an
hour and just kind of lay there and thought for
a bit, and or the bike ride or the kinds
of things that you look at like I don't have
time for that. But the way it works is that
(30:47):
if you decide, here are the things that actually make
me smile and unwind and recharge and rejuvenate, like taking
the bike ride and watching the sunset, So those become priorities.
Are limited them because I don't have a hunt of time.
But once they are in, what then don't I have
time for? And then that's when the less meaningful extras
drop off because truly then you don't have time for them.
(31:09):
But they won't drop off unless there's something else forcing
its way in that you need to prioritize, and that's
again your emotional needs, your self care. Take a moment
to breathe, to relax, to absorb, to get perspective. That's
what's missing that you need to elbow in, and other
things will drop out because of it. I'll also give
(31:32):
you a little bit of a window into what Guy
and I see in the therapy room, which is that
an older version of you will come in and sit
on our perspective couches and they will say, I went
to this college, I have this successful job, I have
lots of friends. Everything looks great on the outside, and
(31:53):
I am so unhappy and I don't know why, and
I see your face. Your face just sort of fell. Yeah,
and that's because I think that something resonated there with you,
that it was sort of like the ghost of Christmas past,
that something said, oh what if Even though I don't
(32:17):
think that that's how you think things are going to go,
because nobody does. So Everybody like you thinks I'm going
to work really hard, I'm going to get into the college,
I'm going to do really well in college, and then
I'm going to get this great job and it's going
to be great. And then they come to therapy and
they say, I don't know why it's not great. I
don't know what happened. I did everything right, I checked
(32:38):
off every box and more. There's nothing I could have
done differently. But oh yes there is. And that's what
we're trying to tell you, that there is something you
could do differently. It's not about the checklist, because the
checklist won't necessarily get you to the kind of life
you want to live. Yeah, the checklist thing kind of
(33:04):
also struck a nerve because a little anecdote I recently
started just like seeing a therapist to deal with like
the stress of junior year because this might have kind
of inspired me. But I told her I didn't have
a very good weekend and she asked why and I
was like, I didn't get a lot done and she
was shocked discovered I had a backup to do list
after I'd finished my first to do list, and she
(33:26):
was told me, that's I don't know, like I'll never
really reach like what I was saying, like I'll never
really reach that check off, Like it's just a constant
uphill battle, you know, Libby, I'm wondering. We've been talking
a lot about the environment at your school. What do
you think your parents would say about going from one
hundred and ten percent to maybe ninety eight percent in
(33:48):
certain areas that you're less passionate about. I think they'd
be complete proponents of that when they got a parent
teacher conferences. The teachers are expecting to see like super
we're crazy, like super hard on my parents, and they're
always shocked that my parents seem chill, and they agree
they want me to take a step back and relax.
(34:09):
But that means there's no external people making that just me.
It's not just you. It's the culture too, the environment
that we're in is contagious and so part of you. Yes,
you're just inherently a person who is very driven, and
that can be a great quality, but you have to
(34:31):
drive in the right direction. You can be driven, but
where are you actually getting to where you actually going
and are you enjoying the ride? That's a good analogy, yeah,
because when you guys are talking about that second Livy,
it was just I was thinking about it, like I
would totally want to be that girl. I really would,
but it's just it's hard when I feel like the
(34:51):
environment i'm and doesn't really foster that kind of person, Like,
how do you really transform, Like to use like a
flower analogy, how do you like blossom into that flower
when the ground you're in only really takes the first version? No, no, no,
that's the point that I'm trying to me because that
that's not necessarily true. The soil isn't like that. One
(35:13):
thing to remember is that nobody gets to live your
life for you. That this is your life and you
get to choose how it goes. And so when you
say I can't do this or I can't do that,
I only get this little window on Sunday nights. That's
my I get to watch a show. I mean when
you hear that, it sounds like a very limited life.
(35:37):
I really appreciate your advice. It's really nice to hear it, too,
because I feel like there is a part of me
that's kind of been like whining for it. Like I
would like to be able to become a more well
rounded person. I would like to read that book on
my shelf. I would like to have that. It's just
nice to hear I might be like lowed to almost so, Libby.
(36:05):
We're thinking about your situation, and here's what we'd like
you to do this week. We'd like you to go
on that bike ride and look at the sunset, and
while you're there, we want you to make a list
of the things that you would just like to do.
Like you just said, oh, I'd like to read a
book off my shelf occasionally while you're up there enjoying
(36:25):
the sunset. Make a list here are seven things that
I would like to do. And then we want you
to do one of those each day. And it doesn't
have to take a full hour. It could be something
like I'm going to read a chapter of a book
and maybe that takes me thirty minutes or I'm going
to call a friend and we're going to not talk
(36:47):
about anything academic. We're just going to talk about life
and laugh and enjoy ourselves. Whatever those things are for you,
we'd like you to do one of them a day
and really embody Libby two. And when you catch yourself
having a Libby one reaction, would like you to write
(37:08):
down what Libby two would think about that, because Libby
two might think, I'm actually really enjoying the book that
I'm reading, and I'm allowing myself to do at least
forty five minutes a day of it, and I'm loving you.
And if you can get this balance right between keeping
your finger on your poets and giving yourself things that
you need that you've been denying yourself because of this
(37:28):
other priority that's success, that's Libby two, and because ultimately
we think you'll be much happier and actually more successful
in life as Libby two rather than Libby one. Okay,
I can absolutely do that, but well, it's not as
scary as I thought of it for you. And remember too,
because you do hold yourself to such high standards. The
(37:52):
perfectionist in you is going to want to master that
this week and we want to let you know that
this takes time. Would consider this a success if you've
got just a taste of what it might be like
to inhabit Libby two, because we think Libby two is
your more authentic self, and that's the goal of this,
(38:15):
So if you get a little taste of that, this
week will be a huge success. I think it's a
really good idea. I hope it'll help me read to
find my goals too, and it's just good to like
find what would make me happy. So I'm excited. Yeah,
we don't think you've put enough thought into that. Yeah, well,
it'd be nice to finally be able to I think
(38:45):
adolescence is a really important time for developing a sense
of who you are and what's important to you, because
you're in that period between being a child where you're
so influenced by the adults around you, to be coming
an adult yourself. And I'm so glad that Libby was
able to sit and grapple with the two different parts
(39:09):
of her. The part of her that's very impacted by
what she thinks is important in the culture, and then
the part of her that says, wait a minute, I
don't necessarily want to live like this and really getting
in touch with what your needs are, learning that, regardless
of all the obligations in front of me, I need
(39:31):
to have some time off. I need to be able
to read for pleasure. I need to be able to
watch a sunset, and to be able to recognize that
as you're growing up and you become a full adult,
no one is going to do that for you. You
have to learn to take care of your own emotional
needs in that way, and this is the time to
practice that. And you also have to be able to
(39:51):
define your values for yourself. That's part of the work
of moving through adolescence and early adulthood. She's gone through
her life with this very all or nothing mindset. There's
success and there's failure, and there's nothing in between, and
her definition of success is not actually leading to what
(40:14):
I think would be her definition of a successful life.
So I'm really interested to see whether she is able
to incorporate some of this into her daily life. Sometimes
these small tweaks can make a huge difference. I'll say this, Laurie.
When we do these sessions, I often walk away thinking, oh,
there's a reminder for me there as well. And as
(40:36):
we were talking. I'm like, when is the last time
I saw a sunset? It's not that long ago, in fact,
but I'm going to go watch one today. You're listening
to Dear Therapist from my Heart Radio. We'll be back
after a quick break. So, for the first time, we
(41:04):
got back a homework assignment from an actual student, Libby,
and this is the assignment that I care the most about,
exactly Libby too. Let's hear it, hi, guys. So I
did it. I wrote down my list, which was as follows.
One watched the sunset to finally finish my book I've
been reading. Three, go on a walk with my best
(41:24):
friends for catch up on the latest sdel five, go
out and get lunch. Six, watch a movie with my
little brother, and seven sit in a pretty place and
just listen to music. And after that week, I honestly
feel lighter. I thought I'd feel more stressed with less time,
but it's more like the highs and lows of my
(41:45):
day are more saturated. I'm getting more satisfaction after finishing
my work without piling more on. And the things I
do for myself are just as fun as I thought
there would be. Just like you said, I do feel
more balanced. After bringing this balance into my life, I
feel less like a workhorse and more like a girl
just doing her best. I'm really going to try to
(42:06):
implement this more into my life, even if it's just
through things a week, and I do recommend it to
anyone else overwhelm my stress out there. I'm feeling far
more optimistic and just happy. I feel like I was
really able to have those extra five hours of sunsets
that I created. So thank you, thank you so much. So.
I love that Libby discovered that when you have balanced
(42:28):
in your life, it doesn't make you less productive. It
actually makes you function better as a whole. I think
what stops many people from doing what Libby did is
this fear that because they're so depleted, if they spend
any effort in trying to make time for themselves, that
will bottom them out and they will really go into
the red, when in fact it's paradoxical, it's the opposite.
(42:52):
By making time for yourself, you are feeling your tank,
you're not depleting it further. And I hope that others
students like Libby listen to this and they try it
for themselves, because what they're doing is they're training themselves
to take the time to care for themselves, which they
(43:12):
will need to do as adults, because we see so
many adults who come to us with a similar thing.
So it's not necessarily about extracurriculars and getting grades and
getting into college, but it's about not being able to
take time for themselves in their daily lives. So I
hope that high school students listen to this, but I
also hope that adults listen to this and implement these strategies.
(43:34):
Just try it for a week like Libby did, and
see and feel the change. Hey, fellow travelers, if you've
used any of our advice from the podcast in your
own life, send us a quick voice memo to Lori
and Guy at ihatmedia dot com and tell us about it.
We may include it in a future show. Thank you
(43:57):
so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please
take a moment to rate and review it. You can
follow us both online. I'm at Lorie Gottlieb dot com
and you can follow me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb
I or on Instagram at Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author, and
I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and on
Instagram at guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd like
(44:21):
to discuss with us, big or small, email us at
Lorian Guy at ihartmedia dot com. Our executive producers Christopher
Hasiotis were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks
to Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie
Kuruk and Next Week, A woman deals with the fallout
after her mother blames her for her father's suicide. She said,
(44:44):
you know why he killed himself, so she made it
sound like she knew the reason, like he left it
in the suicide note. Basically, I don't believe her anymore.
I feel like she's lying. Dear Therapist is a production
of i Art radioh
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy column for Ted. And this is Dear Therapists. This week,
a high school student struggles with the intense pressure to
achieve while also questioning what success really means. I do
(00:26):
feel like the way that, like the college system, that
everything is set up is that you kind of have
to go through this in your teenage years, like there's
not really much time for taking it easier, just like
taking a step back, especially because I know so many
other kids are competing. It's just I do think Guy
inderstid it makes me happy. I just I don't know
(00:48):
if I'm able to do that to reach my goals,
listen in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process.
Dea Therapists is emational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice,
and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
(01:10):
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
you are agreeing to let Ihart Media use it in
partter and fall, and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hey guy, Hi Laurie, So where are
(01:31):
we going this week? We are going back to high school? Oh,
high school? That should be interesting. Yeah, the acne is
coming out already. Let me read you the letter. Dear therapists.
I'm a high school junior and the pressures of college
acceptance are already weighing down on me. I feel like
I'm blindly applying to any leadership position there is, and
(01:53):
that means for every time I'm chosen, there's at least
five times I'm not. I'm worried I've become numb to
rejection and not fully reaping its benefits. But on the
other hand, I feel like I turn into a green
eyed monster every time. How do I find the happy
medium when it comes to rejection, and more importantly, how
do I find the things that truly matter to me,
not just what will look good on my college app
(02:15):
Thanks Libby Well. First of all, I hope Libby knows
that she is not alone in this. This is very
common for high schoolers. Today, unfortunately, to experience this kind
of pressure and to feel it odds with who they
are and what they want in the service of creating
a resume for college. And I really think that we're
(02:37):
not doing a benefit to high schoolers today who are
in this real rat race of competition, because if you
think about it, they spend so many hours tethered to
their desks, and if we replace their laptops with the
sewing machine, we'd be like, oh, my goodness, that's a sweatshop.
But it's an academic sweatshop. And it's really concerning because
it's not leaving them enough time to have a life
(02:58):
and what they miss out on and is all of
the tasks develop mentally that really for a healthy human
need to happen during that time. So let's go talk
to her and find out a little bit more about
what she's going through. Absolutely, you're listening to Deer Therapists
from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break. I'm
(03:26):
Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is Deer Therapists.
So Hi Libby, Hi, nice to meet you, guys. Hi Livy,
it's great to meet you two. Your letter was about
the college application process and all these leadership positions that
you're trying to get so that you have the extra
curriculus and all of that. Can you tell us what
a typical week looks like for you in terms of
(03:47):
how busy you are, what you are doing. I would
love to get a sense of the stresses that you're
dealing with, well beyond the academic side of things, where
my courseload is pretty heavy on the leadership. I think
five different clubs at my school, and two of them
are extremely prominent, So I usually have about like three
(04:08):
meetings a week with that along with other projects. And
I also volunteer at the food bank eight hours every Saturday,
so that's just my time. I'm curious to know of
those five extracurriculars that you participate in, which ones bring
you joy. I love going to the food bank, I do.
(04:32):
I feel like that's the one where it's kind of
me time, but I'm also being productive at the same time.
But I also, beyond the hard work it takes, I
do enjoy feeling like I'm actively making a change in
my school. Like one of them is a club that
promotes like diversity and inclusion and it's really a good
(04:55):
feeling to know that I'm actually making a dent in
atmosphere at my school. That's what you mentioned me time
that the food bank feels like me time? Yeah, is
there any actual me time? Like how much me time
do you have? I don't know, but I think in
terms of actual metime, I think Sunday evenings are kind
(05:18):
of it for me and that I watch a show
I view with my dog. So paint us a picture
that if Sunday evenings that's the only me time? What
are you doing? Saturday day, Saturday night, Friday night, Sunday day?
Where are your weekends? What are you doing? It's a
lot of homework. I really do try to like put
(05:41):
a lot of effort into my school work, so that
takes a lot of time behind the scenes, and I
won't feel good about myself unless I really get out
of the way. So it's usually Sunday where I've gotten
it all done. And this pressure that you're feeling to
build a resume, where is that coming from? Is that
(06:03):
coming from the school environment, Is that coming from your parents?
Is that something that you've always held yourself to those
kinds of standards. What is the end goal here getting
into a certain kind of college, which leads you to what,
which leads you to what? So help us understand your mindset.
I think it's always mostly been me. I've always been
(06:25):
very competitive. But then you can put in my environment
a little bit too, and that both my parents have
been successful in life, and the competition that my school breeds,
and just like the kind of kids I feel like
I'm surrounded by definitely induced me to try even harder.
So beyond getting into a good school, are the specific
(06:47):
schools in mind, the specific majors you have in mind
that you want to study, your specific career parts. You know,
you just want to give yourself the best options possible. Yeah,
I'm not naive enough to think that my life is
perfect if I get an acceptance letter to like a
top college, but I do feel like it's an important
step on the way to having a good career, feeling
(07:10):
successful every day or something. Yeah, I don't really know
what the goal is. I just think if I feel
satisfied with myself, I will have achieved that. When you
talk about feeling satisfied with yourself, you talked about two
of your extracurriculars. They are meaningful to you the food bank,
and then you're working on this diversity and inclusion initiative
(07:32):
at your school. So the other three are you doing
those for your resume or you're doing those because your
heart wants to do them. I do enjoy the other
ones quite a bit. One of them is a woman
empowerment club too, and I do enjoy that one a lot.
I lump that one in with the others, but I
think the two other clubs, it does kind of feel
like I'm kind of taking up this space because I
(07:53):
know it's very competitive. So and other guidance counselors or
it is a general wisdom around the school says you
need at least four or five clubs. You need that
many extra curriculas. In other words, you would think that
just the two that you mentioned in the extra one
you threw in that sounds good. So is that just
because of what everyone else is doing? Why so many?
(08:16):
If I want to succeed and be among the most
accomplished in my class, that's just a necessity to it's leadership,
and it's important to have that. You use the word accomplished,
And I want to help unpack for a minute what
(08:36):
your definition is of accomplishment and success, because as I'm
hearing this, I'm thinking about, well, you're doing these activities
that don't really mean that much to you, at least
two of them, and you're just doing them to have
something on your resume that might look good for colleges.
But it feels very empty. And I think that's why
(08:57):
you wrote to us. I mean, if you were really
engaged in all of your activity, we never would have
received your letter. So help us understand what accomplishment and
success mean to you. It's interesting because I think my
number one goal in life is to be happy, but
I also think that to make myself happy, I have
(09:18):
to feel like I am succeeding, and succeeding means like
I'm getting the great I want on a test. Have
you heard about the difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.
I do not think I have so Intrinsic motivation is
something where the motivation comes from inside of you, like
(09:39):
working at the food bank or working on a diversity
initiative at your school. That's something that's very meaningful to you.
Women empowerment also seems like that's meaningful to you, But
the other ones you're saying you're just basically building a
resume with them. That's extrinsic motivation. That's saying something outside
of me, whether it's a college system, but you have
(10:03):
this idea that there is some reason outside of you
that you need to be doing these things that don't
really feed you or nourish you. And you said, well,
I'm happy if I get a certain grade. These extrinsic
markers of success make you happy. And what I want
to challenge you on is that most people who find happiness,
(10:24):
and by that I mean people who are content, because
happy is sort of like joy. It's a feeling that
comes and goes like any other feeling, sadness, anxiety, they
go in and out like weather systems. But a feeling
of overall contentness in life comes from meaning connection. And
that's the part where I think you're setting yourself on
a dangerous path. So you're getting your happiness from a
(10:49):
grade or something that's on your resume, and I just
don't think that that's going to make you happy in
the long run. I guess I really boiled out, like
I've worked on like the top five things that make
me happy at the end of the day. I do
think a big part of it would be social too.
I do find happiness and doing well in school, but
(11:09):
I also depreciate connection. It's just I feel like there's
two sides of me that are kind of battling for
the time to find those interactions that make me happy. Well,
I'm glad there's connection. But the difference between intrinsic and
external motivation might be it makes me happy to try
my best and to have this growth mindset where I'm
(11:32):
learning and I'm growing even if I don't get the
highest grade, and I'll learn something from that and maybe
next time I'll do better. As opposed to what did
everybody else get? Oh my gosh, I got a ninety eight.
Someone else got in ninety nine, right, and you're laughing
because this is what you're experiencing. As opposed to, Wow,
I learned a lot when I was studying for this test,
or that was really interesting to me. Or I pushed
(11:53):
myself to work hard. That's intrinsic motivation. Extrinsic motivation is
what great am I going to get? Same with your extracurriculars,
it's I really enjoy doing this activity, or it's very
meaningful to me there's passion and purpose behind it, as
opposed to I became president of this club and that's
going to look good on my resume. Yeah, I wholeheartedly
(12:16):
agree with that. It's just I can't help but feel
a bit guilty if I do prioritize that the less
artificial happiness and that I do feel like the way that,
like the college system and everything is kind of set
up is that you kind of have to go through
this in your teenage years, like there's not really much
(12:37):
time for taking it easier, just like taking a step back,
especially because I know so many other kids are competing.
It's just I do the guy understand it makes me happy.
I just I don't know if I'm able to do
that to reach my goals. You know, we talk about
the work life balance, and we usually mean the workplace
and the life balance, but the study life balance is
(12:58):
exactly the same as the work life balance. It really
means how many hours are you dedicating to your career
present of future versus the connections. Small indulgences like on
the Sunday evenings, you allow yourself to watch a show
and I hope you enjoy it, but that's very little
that you're allowing yourself. And part of the concern about
that is that balance. The way it's set up right
(13:21):
now is two weighted in the favor of the work component,
and it doesn't end once you get into college because
the mindset that you have right now will be carried
over into well. But then I want to go to
graduate school or get the best internship or get the
best job, so can't slack off now, and then you
get the best job, or you go to graduate school
and can't slack off now. And this is what happens
(13:42):
to people. They start in high school and probably you
started before, but you set the bar really really high,
and then you focus so much on that val you
take your eye of how you're doing, and that results
in feeling very, very stressed out. But this is the
right time for high school students to catch its huge competition.
(14:02):
But they're probably some tweaks that need to be done
that balance things out a little bit more. If you
had a little bit more time, if you could invent
five more hours in the week that you didn't have
to dedicate to the getting into college thing, what would
you do with those hours? Five hour hours in the week.
(14:23):
And I don't think the answer looking for is put
another five hour system. Well I don't think that's the
answer you're looking for, Libby. Yeah, you're right, because it
wouldn't be a very enjoyable five hours. But that is
where your mind went first. I mean that's my point, right,
that your mind like, oh, I could do so much
more stuff. There's one more leadership thing. But that's the right.
(14:45):
But I am curious if it were just for you,
just for your own joy satisfaction, nothing that counts for anything.
What would you do if I'm allowed to do this,
I'd probably break up an hour for each of the
five days of the weekdays. I would put it at
sunset time and I would go on a bike ride
(15:06):
and I would sit and I would I don't know,
I scream and watch the sunset. Yes, that sounds amazing.
Guy was talking about how this mindset that you have
won't end once you get to college, and a lot
of kids in high school think about college is the prize,
(15:28):
you know, if I can just get that acceptance letter,
if I can just get into that college, and then
they don't really think about what happens. All they think
about is, here's the school I want to go. To
or here are the three top schools that I want
to go to, and I have to put all of
my energies into getting into those schools. And if I
get into one of those schools, I'm done. And so
(15:50):
going back to intrinsic motivation, what is your intrinsic motivation
for wanting to get into a certain kind of college.
What do you think that will do for you and
your life satisfaction. I think it's a pretty good marker
of how much I would have sacrificed over like maybe
(16:13):
these past four years at high school, or what will
it be these past four years? I know that myself
in the future will it'll will be like a very
big symbol of all my hard work. And if I
it would just show like some of my character too,
Like if I worked hard for this goal, I've reached it,
and that means I could reach more goals in the future.
(16:35):
And what if your goal in high school when you
look back later, you said, you know what I did
in high school is I worked really hard and I
focused on things that mattered to me, and I got
into a good college, maybe not the one, And you
did it that way and you met lots of friends
you were involved in tons of activities that meant something
(16:57):
to you. You We're prepared for the kind of career
you wanted. You ended up having the kinds of relationships
that you wanted. Would you look back and be disappointed
in yourself? Absolutely not. Somehow I feel like that will
be my life. Like I will learn this lesson eventually,
but right now I couldn't help. But when you're saying that,
(17:20):
think of like a little knacking voice in the back
of my mind that was saying like you could have
had more? So what is the more that you could
have had? Let's just use the symbol of colleges. Let's
say we're talking about Harvard, Yale, Stamford, whatever, going to
Harvard Deal Stamford as opposed to a really really good
(17:40):
school that isn't Harvardale Stamford. What is the more that
you think you would have at Harvarddale or Stamford. I
just feel like one is a bigger symbol, unfortunately postionable
to whom, maybe to me and maybe to everybody else too.
It's just I'm so on the moment right now of
working hard, skipping out the metime, etc. That I want
(18:02):
it to make me come in number one, and even
if that's just like the US News ranking, it is
how other people view it. I want my hard work
to reflect a gold medal, not silver. It sounds like
you're saying I need to know that I couldn't do that,
and once I get into number one, then I can
maybe relax a little bit more because I proved it
(18:24):
to myself, so then I'll be able to be a
little less goal driven. I especially feel like in today's culture,
what college you go to is like one of the
biggest things. Like if I don't do as well in
that school, I can always use that network of yes,
I went there. And it's unfortunate that its structured that way,
(18:44):
but I do feel like it is important, especially if
I was applying for future jobs and everything. It is
an important factor, and I don't want to ignore it.
I just want to help you with some reality checking
on that is that And it's hard to see because
you're in the middle of all of these kids who
(19:05):
have the same beliefs, and all of these parents, by
the way, in your community, I'm sure have the same
beliefs that you have. But I want to zoom out
a little bit and give you the perspective from decades
down the line, which is that every study shows that
where you went to college, whether you went to an
Ivy League college or you didn't, has no impact on
(19:27):
your future happiness in life. And so you feel like
if I have that, and I can carry that around
for the rest of my life. I went to Harvard,
I went to Stanford, I went to Yale, then somehow
that protects you and provides a certain kind of life
for you that I think is a fiction, because there
(19:51):
are just as many people from those schools who are
depressed and anxious and unhappy and don't meet their were
goals then people who don't. And so let's just say,
for the sake of argument that these studies are right,
that there is no difference in happiness decades later between
(20:13):
the people who went to the number one school versus
the people who went to the very good schools and
were happy at those schools. What is your goal, then,
What is the purpose of all of this, of not
taking those bike rides, of not watching the sunset? I
don't know. I don't really quite know what the goal is.
I just know that if I reached this one, it'll
(20:36):
just feel I don't know, like, I'm on the right
I'm on the right path. And that's why we're a
little bit worried, because because they are looking at each
other because you have this fantasy. And it's not just
about schools, by the way. So in life, it's like,
if I get this one job, if I have this
(20:58):
amount of money, at that point, I will inoculate myself
from you know, sort of future unhappiness. Right, And the
research about money is just the same as the research
about viv leagues that beyond a certain income, which is
comparatively low, it doesn't make a difference to happiness at all. Yeah,
(21:19):
And so what worries us is this idea that you're
going to get into this school, and you're going to
get there, and you're going to go, oh wait, I
sacrifice my childhood and my adolescence for this really and
for a while, it will protect you because every time
you go somewhere, you'll get to say, yeah, I go
(21:40):
to whatever school, or you know, when you graduate, yeah
I graduated from this school. But it's going to start
to feel empty. At a certain point. It will start
to mean a lot less to you and equally importantly
to the people around you. So all of the ways
that right now this stuff means so much when people
are like, where do you get into school? Where you
go into school, that means a lot. It's going to
(22:03):
mean almost nothing later on in life, you know, it'll
be part of I think the thinking that you have
that's problematic, but a lot of people in your position have,
is that it feels like going from one hundred percent
effort to ninety eight percent effort to ninety seven percent
effort will sabotage your goals entirely. So it's either sunset
(22:28):
or hord. You can't have both. And that's a real
problem with the thinking because that's absolutely incorrect. And I
think that if you were to speak to people who
consider themselves successful later in life, they will point to
the mix they have these professional goals, and equally important
(22:48):
for them is to have a life, is to do
the things that make them happy, is to do the
things that give them meaning, which is then about personal enrichment,
connections and family and friendships and one of those things.
And I think that the feeling is and this is
the feeling that I think is troubling me with you,
is that you really feel like no, but right now
it has to be one hundred percent, and I have
(23:10):
to put on hold all my other wants and needs
other than Sunday watching the show for a little bit.
And that is the thinking that I think is too extreme,
because success means you have both well, right, I think
when we talk about success, you can have all of
these very impressive extracurriculars and the grades that you want
(23:30):
to have. But if the cost is stress or depression,
or anxiety or envy all the time, or this feeling
of never being good enough compared to your classmates, I
don't know that that's a healthy definition of success, and
I don't know that it's the kind of success that
you should aspire to. It's just it's so hard to
(23:54):
change my way of thinking because when you guys are
saying this, I am reminded of what I have honestly thought,
is that I will be likely happier socially, I will
feel less like the toxic environment. But it's just so
hard to unlearn that wanting the best, especially because I
(24:15):
am in that environment right now. So I can help,
but wonder if I could have both? So Libby what
guy said earlier I think is really important, which is
that nobody's saying, go from one hundred and ten percent
effort to eighty percent effort. He was talking about going
to like a ninety eight, and I think what he
meant to wasn't a ninety eight. And the things you
(24:36):
care about, the things you care about, put in one
hundred and ten percent effort because you care. Guy and
I we put in one hundred and ten percent effort
into the things that really matter to us. We will
sacrifice lots of things for the things that really matter
to us but matter to us intrinsically. But to put
(24:57):
in one hundred and ten percent effort into some thing
that doesn't mean something to us, that is where we
want to open up a little door for you and
to help you think about. Even in this conversation, those
two extracurriculars that you said, well, those are leadership positions,
and at my school those look really good on a resume.
(25:20):
I think that when you get to college, what makes
for success are the people who are whole human beings
who really learned something about themselves as they were going
through this developmental phase. Those people who say, I know
what's important to me, and I'm going to put a
lot of effort into what's important to me. I'm going
to be authentic. And it's even possible that your plan
(25:43):
is backfiring because I think that the colleges are pretty
aware of what's authentic and what's not. And you're kind
of rolling your eyes a little bit there, But I
want to tell you that I think they're getting much
better at that. They're like, wait a minute, this person
is doing five extracurriculars, and they're doing this and that
(26:04):
and the other thing, and they're also getting the top grades.
And I have to wonder, where's this person's true passion?
Who is this person? Yeah, I absolutely understand that. I
have to say I was thinking of like the kids
I know who they run clubs, like I don't even know,
(26:25):
like your research of kidney transplant or something, And I
seriously doubt sixteen year olds are interested in that. If
you ask any of my friends or any of my classmates,
I would feel like they would describe me as that person.
I feel like that's a big part of my quote
unquote brands. You use the word brand, okay, that that's
part of your brand. And I think right there, you're
(26:47):
looking for a brand of a college. You're not looking
for the place where you will thrive. You are simply saying, oh,
I want the Harvard brand or whatever your dream is,
as opposed to where will I act actually thrive. And
you're looking at how people perceive you. That's your brand,
that's not your essence. And in life, what's going to
(27:09):
be important in terms of your happiness is what is
your authentic essence, not what is your brand. I can
say for myself that when I was in high school,
I felt like if I didn't do all of the
things that I could do, even if they didn't make
me happy or weren't fulfilling to me, that people would
perceive me as less accomplished. People would perceive me as
(27:30):
less in the game. If I didn't get the top
score on a test, then people would think I was
less smart because I could have gotten a higher score.
But I decided to go take that bike ride and
look at the sunset, and what I found was it
didn't matter what people thought of me because I was
making myself miserable. And I think that the mindset is, well,
(27:52):
it's only four years, so I can live miserably for
four years. Four years matters not just because of those
four years, but because it forms who you are going forward.
That's true. When you think about your brand, I want
you to think seriously about what you value in yourself
(28:13):
and not what others might value about you, and to
be able to separate that out, because right now they
are so enmeshed. Yeah, the thing is, those things are
important to me, but I feel like I can't let
up too, Like I need to have that accomplished version
of myself. And then I also am trying to work
(28:34):
on that other person. If you describe the way you
are right now, and you compare that to describing the
exact same person with one tweak that the second version
of Livy only does three clubs rather than five, and
she spends an hour every day taking a bike ride,
watching the sunset, sometimes having some ice cream. Sometimes it's
(28:56):
been doing some sketching, sometimes just listening to music. She
spends an hour of quality time with herself every day
doing things that just make her smile. Which one is
most successful of those two Libbies? The second one, It
just it just it just clicked for me. It just
(29:16):
clicked for me. And who do you like better? Libby
one who does things that don't really mean that much
to her, but she's trying to game the system or
Libby two who's really accomplished, works really hard, gets really
good grades, participates in activities that mean something to her.
She wants to make the world a better place, and
(29:39):
she also values her social connections and she values herself.
I like the second one. Yeah, that's crazy. I've always
thought that like essential, like tenant of and I think
right around when I wrote to you guys, I was
thinking a lot of like what rejection is and what
success is, And something I wrote down was successful people
(30:04):
do all the things unsuccessful people don't want to do. Now,
I don't know if that's true. Look, there's always more
you can do. That's certainly going to be true. In college,
there was always another chapter you can read, another paper,
you can study, you know, the round. The trick then
is to know where to set the limit and to
know how to prioritize some other things so you are
(30:27):
clear about the social being important. The third aspect is
again your quality of life. Like you know, people will
sometimes say, oh, I just took a bath for an
hour and just kind of lay there and thought for
a bit, and or the bike ride or the kinds
of things that you look at like I don't have
time for that. But the way it works is that
(30:47):
if you decide, here are the things that actually make
me smile and unwind and recharge and rejuvenate, like taking
the bike ride and watching the sunset, So those become priorities.
Are limited them because I don't have a hunt of time.
But once they are in, what then don't I have
time for? And then that's when the less meaningful extras
drop off because truly then you don't have time for them.
(31:09):
But they won't drop off unless there's something else forcing
its way in that you need to prioritize, and that's
again your emotional needs, your self care. Take a moment
to breathe, to relax, to absorb, to get perspective. That's
what's missing that you need to elbow in, and other
things will drop out because of it. I'll also give
(31:32):
you a little bit of a window into what Guy
and I see in the therapy room, which is that
an older version of you will come in and sit
on our perspective couches and they will say, I went
to this college, I have this successful job, I have
lots of friends. Everything looks great on the outside, and
(31:53):
I am so unhappy and I don't know why, and
I see your face. Your face just sort of fell. Yeah,
and that's because I think that something resonated there with you,
that it was sort of like the ghost of Christmas past,
that something said, oh what if Even though I don't
(32:17):
think that that's how you think things are going to go,
because nobody does. So Everybody like you thinks I'm going
to work really hard, I'm going to get into the college,
I'm going to do really well in college, and then
I'm going to get this great job and it's going
to be great. And then they come to therapy and
they say, I don't know why it's not great. I
don't know what happened. I did everything right, I checked
(32:38):
off every box and more. There's nothing I could have
done differently. But oh yes there is. And that's what
we're trying to tell you, that there is something you
could do differently. It's not about the checklist, because the
checklist won't necessarily get you to the kind of life
you want to live. Yeah, the checklist thing kind of
(33:04):
also struck a nerve because a little anecdote I recently
started just like seeing a therapist to deal with like
the stress of junior year because this might have kind
of inspired me. But I told her I didn't have
a very good weekend and she asked why and I
was like, I didn't get a lot done and she
was shocked discovered I had a backup to do list
after I'd finished my first to do list, and she
(33:26):
was told me, that's I don't know, like I'll never
really reach like what I was saying, like I'll never
really reach that check off, Like it's just a constant
uphill battle, you know, Libby, I'm wondering. We've been talking
a lot about the environment at your school. What do
you think your parents would say about going from one
hundred and ten percent to maybe ninety eight percent in
(33:48):
certain areas that you're less passionate about. I think they'd
be complete proponents of that when they got a parent
teacher conferences. The teachers are expecting to see like super
we're crazy, like super hard on my parents, and they're
always shocked that my parents seem chill, and they agree
they want me to take a step back and relax.
(34:09):
But that means there's no external people making that just me.
It's not just you. It's the culture too, the environment
that we're in is contagious and so part of you. Yes,
you're just inherently a person who is very driven, and
that can be a great quality, but you have to
(34:31):
drive in the right direction. You can be driven, but
where are you actually getting to where you actually going
and are you enjoying the ride? That's a good analogy, yeah,
because when you guys are talking about that second Livy,
it was just I was thinking about it, like I
would totally want to be that girl. I really would,
but it's just it's hard when I feel like the
(34:51):
environment i'm and doesn't really foster that kind of person, Like,
how do you really transform, Like to use like a
flower analogy, how do you like blossom into that flower
when the ground you're in only really takes the first version? No, no, no,
that's the point that I'm trying to me because that
that's not necessarily true. The soil isn't like that. One
(35:13):
thing to remember is that nobody gets to live your
life for you. That this is your life and you
get to choose how it goes. And so when you
say I can't do this or I can't do that,
I only get this little window on Sunday nights. That's
my I get to watch a show. I mean when
you hear that, it sounds like a very limited life.
(35:37):
I really appreciate your advice. It's really nice to hear it, too,
because I feel like there is a part of me
that's kind of been like whining for it. Like I
would like to be able to become a more well
rounded person. I would like to read that book on
my shelf. I would like to have that. It's just
nice to hear I might be like lowed to almost so, Libby.
(36:05):
We're thinking about your situation, and here's what we'd like
you to do this week. We'd like you to go
on that bike ride and look at the sunset, and
while you're there, we want you to make a list
of the things that you would just like to do.
Like you just said, oh, I'd like to read a
book off my shelf occasionally while you're up there enjoying
(36:25):
the sunset. Make a list here are seven things that
I would like to do. And then we want you
to do one of those each day. And it doesn't
have to take a full hour. It could be something
like I'm going to read a chapter of a book
and maybe that takes me thirty minutes or I'm going
to call a friend and we're going to not talk
(36:47):
about anything academic. We're just going to talk about life
and laugh and enjoy ourselves. Whatever those things are for you,
we'd like you to do one of them a day
and really embody Libby two. And when you catch yourself
having a Libby one reaction, would like you to write
(37:08):
down what Libby two would think about that, because Libby
two might think, I'm actually really enjoying the book that
I'm reading, and I'm allowing myself to do at least
forty five minutes a day of it, and I'm loving you.
And if you can get this balance right between keeping
your finger on your poets and giving yourself things that
you need that you've been denying yourself because of this
(37:28):
other priority that's success, that's Libby two, and because ultimately
we think you'll be much happier and actually more successful
in life as Libby two rather than Libby one. Okay,
I can absolutely do that, but well, it's not as
scary as I thought of it for you. And remember too,
because you do hold yourself to such high standards. The
(37:52):
perfectionist in you is going to want to master that
this week and we want to let you know that
this takes time. Would consider this a success if you've
got just a taste of what it might be like
to inhabit Libby two, because we think Libby two is
your more authentic self, and that's the goal of this,
(38:15):
So if you get a little taste of that, this
week will be a huge success. I think it's a
really good idea. I hope it'll help me read to
find my goals too, and it's just good to like
find what would make me happy. So I'm excited. Yeah,
we don't think you've put enough thought into that. Yeah, well,
it'd be nice to finally be able to I think
(38:45):
adolescence is a really important time for developing a sense
of who you are and what's important to you, because
you're in that period between being a child where you're
so influenced by the adults around you, to be coming
an adult yourself. And I'm so glad that Libby was
able to sit and grapple with the two different parts
(39:09):
of her. The part of her that's very impacted by
what she thinks is important in the culture, and then
the part of her that says, wait a minute, I
don't necessarily want to live like this and really getting
in touch with what your needs are, learning that, regardless
of all the obligations in front of me, I need
(39:31):
to have some time off. I need to be able
to read for pleasure. I need to be able to
watch a sunset, and to be able to recognize that
as you're growing up and you become a full adult,
no one is going to do that for you. You
have to learn to take care of your own emotional
needs in that way, and this is the time to
practice that. And you also have to be able to
(39:51):
define your values for yourself. That's part of the work
of moving through adolescence and early adulthood. She's gone through
her life with this very all or nothing mindset. There's
success and there's failure, and there's nothing in between, and
her definition of success is not actually leading to what
(40:14):
I think would be her definition of a successful life.
So I'm really interested to see whether she is able
to incorporate some of this into her daily life. Sometimes
these small tweaks can make a huge difference. I'll say this, Laurie.
When we do these sessions, I often walk away thinking, oh,
there's a reminder for me there as well. And as
(40:36):
we were talking. I'm like, when is the last time
I saw a sunset? It's not that long ago, in fact,
but I'm going to go watch one today. You're listening
to Dear Therapist from my Heart Radio. We'll be back
after a quick break. So, for the first time, we
(41:04):
got back a homework assignment from an actual student, Libby,
and this is the assignment that I care the most about,
exactly Libby too. Let's hear it, hi, guys. So I
did it. I wrote down my list, which was as follows.
One watched the sunset to finally finish my book I've
been reading. Three, go on a walk with my best
(41:24):
friends for catch up on the latest sdel five, go
out and get lunch. Six, watch a movie with my
little brother, and seven sit in a pretty place and
just listen to music. And after that week, I honestly
feel lighter. I thought I'd feel more stressed with less time,
but it's more like the highs and lows of my
(41:45):
day are more saturated. I'm getting more satisfaction after finishing
my work without piling more on. And the things I
do for myself are just as fun as I thought
there would be. Just like you said, I do feel
more balanced. After bringing this balance into my life, I
feel less like a workhorse and more like a girl
just doing her best. I'm really going to try to
(42:06):
implement this more into my life, even if it's just
through things a week, and I do recommend it to
anyone else overwhelm my stress out there. I'm feeling far
more optimistic and just happy. I feel like I was
really able to have those extra five hours of sunsets
that I created. So thank you, thank you so much. So.
I love that Libby discovered that when you have balanced
(42:28):
in your life, it doesn't make you less productive. It
actually makes you function better as a whole. I think
what stops many people from doing what Libby did is
this fear that because they're so depleted, if they spend
any effort in trying to make time for themselves, that
will bottom them out and they will really go into
the red, when in fact it's paradoxical, it's the opposite.
(42:52):
By making time for yourself, you are feeling your tank,
you're not depleting it further. And I hope that others
students like Libby listen to this and they try it
for themselves, because what they're doing is they're training themselves
to take the time to care for themselves, which they
(43:12):
will need to do as adults, because we see so
many adults who come to us with a similar thing.
So it's not necessarily about extracurriculars and getting grades and
getting into college, but it's about not being able to
take time for themselves in their daily lives. So I
hope that high school students listen to this, but I
also hope that adults listen to this and implement these strategies.
(43:34):
Just try it for a week like Libby did, and
see and feel the change. Hey, fellow travelers, if you've
used any of our advice from the podcast in your
own life, send us a quick voice memo to Lori
and Guy at ihatmedia dot com and tell us about it.
We may include it in a future show. Thank you
(43:57):
so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please
take a moment to rate and review it. You can
follow us both online. I'm at Lorie Gottlieb dot com
and you can follow me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb
I or on Instagram at Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author, and
I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and on
Instagram at guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd like
(44:21):
to discuss with us, big or small, email us at
Lorian Guy at ihartmedia dot com. Our executive producers Christopher
Hasiotis were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks
to Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie
Kuruk and Next Week, A woman deals with the fallout
after her mother blames her for her father's suicide. She said,
(44:44):
you know why he killed himself, so she made it
sound like she knew the reason, like he left it
in the suicide note. Basically, I don't believe her anymore.
I feel like she's lying. Dear Therapist is a production
of i Art radioh
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