October 1, 2024 • 51 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. Danica and her two brothers grew up with parents who weren't very present, leaving the three of them to fend for themselves. But Danica and her older brother could be painfully cruel to their younger brother Blake, and as adults, Blake still feels hurt and excluded. We help Danica to revise her story about their relationship, and to begin the process of healing and repair.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
This week, a woman tries to forge a relationship with
the younger brother she wasn't very nice to when they
were children.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
It's very emotional to say that, yes, I was awful
to have said that I wish you weren't born, you know,
to a little kid like that, and I have said
that I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Deo therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health providers with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in potter
(01:07):
and full and we may edit it for length, end
or clarity.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Hey guy, this week, we have a letter about some
sibling stuff that's playing out in adulthood. Here's how it goes,
dear therapists. I'm a middle child and have two brothers.
My older brother John and I are less than two
years apart in age, and my younger brother, Blake is
five years younger than I am. We're all in our
(01:32):
mid thirties now. John and I are good friends with
similar sensibilities and interests. We always have a lot to
talk about politics, being parents, etc. Blake, for his whole
life has struggled with feeling unloved and resentful. We grew
up in a household where there was scarce parental attention,
and we had vicious sibling rivalry. We were home alone
(01:52):
from very young ages. Growing up, John and I could
be emotionally cruel toward Blake, leaving him to play by himself,
ignoring him, avoiding him, and so on. I cringe to
tell you that I once told him I wished he
had never been born. I didn't grow out of my
resentment toward Blake until maybe age eleven, at which point
I treated him in a less dysfunctional manner. As adults,
(02:15):
Blake and I have gone through phases of mutually enjoying
each other's company, then being more distant. John was pretty
indifferent toward Blake until his mid to late twenties. For
the last decade or so, John has been a much
better older brother, regularly reaching out to Blake to catch
up and spend time together. Blake still carries a lot
of pain associated with his relationship with us. Every few years,
(02:37):
we talked through his feelings, most recently this past Labor Day.
The gist is that he yearns for a close relationship
with us, but has a hard time because he doesn't
have a history of being in that role with us.
John and I have been ready to have a normal, loving,
happy siblinghood with Blake for a long while, but Blake
insists that we are only going through the motions if
we do reach out, ostracizing him being unworthy of trust
(02:59):
and otherwise still inflicting the pain he's experienced all of
his life. How do we break out of this cycle?
Thanks Danica, Well.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Danica is right, there is a real cycle there, and
I think it might be perpetuating into the present still,
because it just sounds like she and John have so
much of a closer relationship and that Blake feels it.
He felt it in childhood and he feels it still,
and they can say we want to have a loving,
happy sibling relationship, but if he feels that it's the
(03:30):
two of them plus him rather the three of them,
then he's still going to have those feelings. And to
the extent that those are her feelings, then he probably
is picking up something accurate.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
That's right. And when she says that she wants to
have a normal, loving, happy siblinghood with Blake, I wonder
if part of the problem is that she and John
haven't really taken full responsibility for the extent of the
pain that they caused him in childhood. It's almost like
they want to create a situation that doesn't take into
(04:04):
account their history.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And she says they grew up in a household with
scarce parental attention, and that meant that as the youngest
for Blake, he really looked up to his siblings as
parental figures, and so that kind of rejection wasn't just
coming from siblings were older, but from parental figures in
addition to the actual rejection from the parental figures.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Who weren't around, right, I think that there's still a
lot of unresolved issues that are very painful for him,
and I want to find out how willing she and
John have been to be able to not just listen
to Blake's feelings, but be able to take responsibility and
see what they can do to affect some kind of
(04:44):
repair in adulthood. That doesn't take away what happened, but
that can move them forward.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I think just saying now we're going to treat you
normally is not sufficient. There's a makeup to be done.
So let's talk to her. You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio.
We'll be back after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb
(05:10):
and I'm Guy Wench, and this is Deotherapist.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Hi Danica, Hi Laurie, Hey Guy.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Hello, Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Of course, So Danica, we read your letter and you
were talking about this cycle that you seem to be
in with Blake, and I wanted to hear a little
bit more about these conversations that you've been having and
what those conversations are like when you do talk about
(05:39):
what happened in your childhood.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
So the conversations are very emotionally laiden, just like very loaded.
It's mostly my younger brother talking through his experiences, and
my older brother and I trying to listen and trying
to figure out what it is that he needs to
(06:04):
hear from us to help move the situation forward.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
When you say it's mostly him talking, can you tell
us who brought it up? And if it was Blake,
what does he say. I just want to hear a
little bit of the back and forth to get a
sense of how that discussion actually happens.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
This most recent time, he actually told my sister in
law that he was still very troubled by the dynamics
in our family. And then she told us, so then
we knew, and then I told my mom, and she
(06:41):
then really just had her heart set on her kids
having another conversation to work things out. We knew we
were going to be hanging out for Labor Day, and
we just all were planning on, Okay, Labor Day is
going to be when we're going to have another conversation
to hash through everything.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Danica, you say she wanted her kids to have this conversation.
You mean your mom wanted the three of you to
have this conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yes, but it wasn't that we would only have it
because she wanted us to John, and I are always
willing to talk with Blake about any of this. In
the past we would talk, and I think that she
wasn't necessarily aware of those conversations, but this time she
(07:30):
wanted to be there.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I'm really interested in the fact that your mom wants
you to have these conversations. I wonder given your childhood
you describe it as being very difficult, with your parents
not really being present and leaving you kids to your
own devices. Have you and your mom, and I don't
know where your father is in this as well, had
a conversation about what happened for all of you in
(07:54):
your childhood.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Not really it's taken for granted in our family that
my dad would work and then come home and watch
TV didn't really help. He acknowledges that. And then my
mom would also come home around six or seven, make dinner,
and then just kind of be in the scramble at
(08:17):
night getting us ready in Optibet. She just knows that
she was very busy and didn't have very much attention
for us growing up. So it's known in the family.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
It's known because she and your father have said, we
worked a lot, and we had to work a lot
and that's why we weren't there, or it's known because
it was obvious from what happened the former.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
They know like we worked a lot, we were just
doing our best. We know that we didn't have much
time necessarily.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Could you tell us a little bit about what Blake
actually says to you in these conversations, what he voices
as his complaints or his concerns, and how you and
John respond.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I think the main thing he says is he feels
like my older brother and I wear siblings, and we
have in our heads a sense of what it means
to be a brother and a sister. For him, when
he shows up, it's just like he's there, he's not
really participating. He doesn't know how to step into the
(09:25):
role of being this happy, loving brother. He kind of
knows how to play act it, but it doesn't really
feel all that authentic. And he feels like my older
brother doesn't empathize with how his experience was growing up.
(09:45):
And then for me, he says that I'm too inconsistent
as a sister towards him.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
When he voices that, how do you respond to Blake?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Blake asked us repeatedly, what does it mean to you
to be a sibling to me, like, what can he
really count on from us? So we tell him it
means that where people who share a history together, we're
(10:17):
there for each other. We love each other, we share
life updates, and if we need help, then we ask
each other for help and we help each other.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
That might be a nice definition of siblings if you
didn't have the history that you have. But I'm interested
in what he's feeling hurt by, and he said two
specific things. He said, he feels like John doesn't empathize
with him, and he feels like you are inconsistent. Yes,
(10:55):
and so when he says that, how do you address
that with him? Inconsistency?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I asked him would it help if we just have
a regular time that we talk, and he said yes,
So we're going to start there. Since Labor Day, I've
been just texting him on and off. But then we're
going to just have a monthly video call. So I'm
in a just very busy part of life right now
(11:22):
with family and work. He is too, So I think
that's part of the inconsistency. That's the concrete thing that
I offered to see if it would help.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Is there a consistency that you have with John that
you don't have with Blake, And what does that look like.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
We don't have anything scheduled, but I do definitely just
message John naturally, like it doesn't take any effort or planning,
because John and I are close. I count him as
one of my best friends and someone who is just
(12:01):
on the same wavelength as I am. We're really into politics,
for example, So I'll just send him a message with
whatever news is going on. So in that sense, the
consistency is there, and it's not you know, Forester plan
at all.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
It sounds like that when Blake says to you you're inconsistent, Danika,
then you think he means, well, you don't call me
regularly enough, or you don't initiate contact regularly enough. It's possible.
I'm not sure what he means. And when he says
to John that he's not empathetic enough, I'm not sure
(12:38):
if John understands exactly what Blake means by that. So
how much do you actually ask him questions? Blake tell
us more about what consistency would look like. Blake, tell me,
this is John speaking, Blake, tell me where you feel
my lack of empathy where you feel I should have
more compassion, where you feel I should have more understanding.
(13:00):
How much do you ask him to really explain what
he's actually talking about in a very granular way.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I think that both John and I try to do
what you're saying, And what I recall is that it
was a lot of I don't knows from Blake, like
like we would say, well, what does family look like
for you, and it would be I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I think because what he's trying to convey to you
is a feeling, and the feeling that he has is
that I'm not part of this group. Still, I don't
feel I have the closeness with you Danika that John has.
I don't feel that I have the closeness with you
John that Danika has, And I don't know how to
feel more accepted and more that I belong within that
(13:55):
circle of siblings. Possibly he doesn't articulate that, but my
suspicion is that's what he's talking about. He just doesn't
feel a part.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, that's completely accurate.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
There's a difference between a conversation that goes like Blake
saying to you, Daniku, I feel like you're inconsistent with me,
and because you want to help, you are saying, okay,
well then let's have a video call every month, versus
a conversation that goes like Danik gout, I think there's
this inconsistency that you have with me, and you are saying,
(14:31):
tell me more about what you mean by that, and
he might say I don't know the first few times,
but I think what he's getting at is that there's
something that hasn't been healed between the three of you,
and there's something that he's wanting and maybe he doesn't
know how to articulate it. And one of the very
(14:51):
first things you said when we first started talking today
was you don't know what he needs to hear from you.
And I have a feeling that one thing he hasn't
maybe heard from you is a real sense of we
were terrible to you. We take responsibility for that. What
(15:15):
have those conversations been like where you go back and
take full responsibility for the extent of the pain that
you caused him as a child.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
I have done that, like just acknowledged how awful I
was to him. For me, also, it's very emotional, you know,
to say that, yes, I was awful. You were very
much on your own, as like a five or a
six year old. Yes, I did ignore you, didn't play
(15:49):
with you. I didn't say this in the most recent
time we talked, but to have said that I wish
you weren't born, you know, to a little kid like that,
and I have said that I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
How does he respond to that?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I held his hands and I cried and told him
how what a small thing it is to just share
some blood with somebody and be siblings, but also how
big of a thing it is, and how you know
it's like important. So he cried as well. But the
conversations that I had with him afterwards, it was still
(16:28):
a lot of railing on his part against how he
perceives my role and what I think Guy is describing
like still making him feel like an outsider. We had,
at least on the surface, a perfectly fine relationship for
several years into adulthood, and then within the past two
years or so he kind of cut me off, and
(16:49):
I asked, and he said, I do still somehow reinforce
the same dynamics that have been in place our whole lives.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
How does he think you reinforce those patterns from child,
even though you're trying so hard not to.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I think he does definitely pick up. I mean I
even told him John and I we just have a
lot in common and we just naturally gravitate towards each
other as friends, and I think it really pains him
that if we weren't siblings with him, we probably would
not be friends. If we'd all met in the work
(17:26):
setting or something like, John and I would probably just
like hang out, but Blake would not be part of
that because we're just different.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
But that's the thing, he says, I feel like an outsider.
And your response is, well, you know, John and I
are are closer and we have more in common, so
that's a natural thing that we would be closer. But
that's the wound for him, well one of them, and
so that might be the reality, but his feeling is
probably well, there are lots of siblings that don't have
(17:58):
a ton in common, but they still have of a
really close bond, and he doesn't feel that close bond.
How much do you really know him as an adult?
How much do you talk to him about his life
or about other things that go on with him to
really get to know who this person is these days.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
I would say that there was a period of time,
so he's in his early thirties, maybe early twenties to
later twenties, when I would just call him, we would talk.
We were both dating then, so we complain about dating together,
and we would talk about our jobs and whatever we
were stressed about. So at that point I would say
(18:41):
I knew his day to day pretty well. Even now,
I feel like I know him at a fundamental level,
just in terms of his personality and generally what he's
interested in, But I don't know his day to day
that well. So for the last couple years, I would
call him not that frequently, maybe like once a month
or once every couple of months, and he wouldn't pick up,
(19:03):
like you just at that point, I think was in
the mode where he felt like he wanted to distance
from me.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So it's interesting because when you described that, oh he
was dating, I was dating. We would talk about, you know,
complaints about dating, and that's just fothered for so many conversations.
But he must have felt at that point like, oh,
like we're buddies now, like you know, this is something
we have in common. We're going through it together. In
some kind of way. It's probably the kind of thing
that he was looking for in terms of feeling close
(19:34):
and that he has stuff in common with you and
that you're mutually interested in one another. When did that end?
When the dating kind of ended.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
It wasn't like anything conscious on my end to have
that stop. It was just I had my first kid
and just got really busy. Of course, you know, he
could probably say, well, you still talk with John through
all of that, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
But even before your first kid, I'm assuming there was
a relationship that happened before that that took you out
to the dating game, So you lost that common touch point.
Did he into a relationship around the time or soon thereafter?
Is he in one now?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
He actually broke up pretty soon after that, and then
that was a very hard breakup for him, I think.
So it was actually at that point where on both
sides we just ended up talking less.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
After the breakup, because you would think that's when he
would need more support.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Were you concerned about him or did you think about
him as he was going through this really tough breakup?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, I mean I reached out to ask how he
was doing, probably more than once, you know, just like
checking in and I've always been interested in just knowing
what's going on with his dating life, so I would
just periodically call and ask him about that and how
it's going.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Where do you think John was all of this? You
said it wasn't until later that John changed his orientation
toward Blake. You guys were sort of talking about dating
and you were having a bit of a closer relationship.
Where was John in his relationship with Blake at that time?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
John starting in like late twenties and so Blake was
early twenties. John would start to just reach out and
see if Blake wanted to hang out and call him periodically.
So I think John was around I live in another state,
so I don't have that closeive of you into things.
But my understanding is John would just periodically call him
(21:43):
and see if he was also going to be hanging
out with our parents on you know, around the holidays
and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
But do you think, for example, during the breakup, that
John was reaching out to him too, or that he
would be able to talk to his older brother about
what he was going through.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Not extensive, but I think some like after the breakup,
Blake actually stayed at John's house for a period of
I don't know, a week or something like that.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Is Blake in a relationship now? Has he had relationship
since that breakup?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
He is in a relationship now, yes, And do you
know his partner. I've only met her once and I
think she's darling, so I really like her. I met
her over a Labor Day. They've been dating for almost
a year now. But Blake has actually said he is
really nervous about having us meet her get to know her.
(22:38):
He said it's because it's upon further reflection that he
realized how much of a role I play and continuing
to isolate him.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
I guess I can see in your face how much
you really want things to be better between the two
of you. At least it's very clear you wrote the
letter this is what you want to figure out. What's
interesting is that he keeps saying, you know, consistent enough,
(23:05):
I'm worried about your influence still about making me an outsider.
I'm hesitant to introduce you to the partner. And I'm
not hearing you say to him. You know, Blake, you
keep feeling rejected by me, and I'm not sure when
that's happening or how that's happening. Could you help me understand,
because that's not my intention, and it must be happening
(23:26):
if you're feeling that way, But I need your help
and understanding in what way.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I haven't said those exact things to him, but I
am happy to try.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, there seems to be this divide that's existed since childhood,
and even though you and John have tried to become
closer and more inclusive with him, he's still feeling very
much how he felt as a child. And that makes
me wonder too a little bit about not only what
(23:58):
patterns are persistence so childhood, but also how have the
three of you worked through whatever you experienced in childhood
with your parents. So we talked a little bit about
how your mom and dad acknowledged that they worked a lot.
Did anybody talk about what went on with the siblings
(24:19):
with your parents? Are they aware of what went on
with Blake? And have you and John come to terms
in some way with what happened in childhood in a
way that maybe Blake hasn't, because it's not just a
sibling issue for Blake that he was so young that
(24:42):
you two were sort of like surrogate parents to him.
And so he was rejected not just by siblings, but
also by the closest thing he had to someone older
than him who could take care of him in some way.
And you two were a little bit older, and maybe
you came to whatever terms you came to with what
happened as children, and you seem to have a good
(25:03):
relationship at least with your mom. I'm not sure where
things are with your dad, but I don't know what
Blake has done in terms of coming to terms with that,
And do you have any understanding or knowledge from him
about where he stands now as an adult visa for
your parents.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I think he actually said for a long time he
just hated my dad, and now he doesn't hate my dad,
but just kind of an indifference, which, to be honest,
is kind of in the boat that I'm in as well.
With my mom, she's a really amazing woman in a
lot of ways, very loving, and she tried her best.
(25:41):
So for me, I feel like I made peace with that.
And then for him, she's the sole person who gave
him the love and nurturing that a child should receive.
So I don't think he has any kind of anger
towards her, If anything, he's very defensive on her behalf
suggest that there were certain things where she may have
(26:04):
fell short. He's very defensive about her.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
So he feels that he was taken care of by
your mom.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I would say that he agrees that we were neglected
to some degree, but then he very quickly says, well,
that was the best that she could do.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Can you tell us a little bit more about why
there's this anger towards your dad, because so far you've
told us that they both worked a lot and weren't there.
But what was the difference between how your mom was
and how your dad was when you were growing up.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
He had a very short temper. He would yell at
us when we were younger, he would hit us. He
didn't participate much in the things that you do to
raise children. He really did just work and then watch
TV a lot of the time. So I think for
me at least, and probably for my younger brother, we
(26:58):
just felt like he was abusive of our mom, even
not verbally or physically, but in terms of having her
be a single parent.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Are they still married, yes? Have you ever talked to
your dad about how you feel about his role in
your childhood.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Not specifically how absent he.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Was, or his anger or you know, for hitting or
any of that.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I mean, it's like known. Even my dad would see
how I am with my kids, for example, or how
my husband is with our kids and say, like, I
know I was nothing like that when you guys are
growing up, and I know I have your mom to
thank for everything for how well our family has turned
out because I was so absent, and now I'm trying
(27:55):
to make up for it. How I can, Like he
would say things like.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
That, are letting him make up for it?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah, I think so. I mean I love to have
my kids interact with him, and like he would come
and help me regularly with things that I have going
on in my life. I try to show him affection.
How I can back.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
To Blake for a minute. What are the things about
him that you like, respect that my feel you have
commonality with. Tell me what the touch points are.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
He's a very caring person. He's a school psychologist. I
think it's pretty amazing to work with the population of
kids that he works with. I think that he's a
very reliable and loyal person, and he has certain goals
(28:52):
that he works towards steadily, like financial goals, and health goals.
When we were relating on a pretty comfortable basis, he
was just kind of like a good person for me
to bounce my feelings or thoughts.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
So it sounds like there is enough a foundation there
for a closer relationship on your end, because what comes
across in the letter, and it came across when you
talk about John, is that the connection with John is
so much deeper, so much more profound. So it's at
such a different level than the connection with Blake was
(29:33):
is or could be even And I'm not sure if
that's how you really feel, but that's what comes across. Yeah,
And then when you talk about Blake, and it sounds
like there actually could be a real connection at a
deeper level. So that's what I'm a little confused by.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And when I think about the kinds of things you
talk about in terms of commonality. So with John, you
love to talk about politics, which isn't deep in your
personal types of things, but it's fun. You guys love that.
With Blake, you said, well, I ran things by him,
you know, emotional things you ran by him. And maybe
(30:11):
because he's a school psychologist and he's very interested in
people's in your lives. He's a really good person for that,
And I have a feeling that in your family, even
though there's so much love there, you know, you've said
about a few things, it's just understood. We don't really
talk about it. It just understood in our family. But
(30:33):
Blake is somebody who wants to talk about certain things.
And he's also somebody who's very insightful and wise in
that way, probably because of what he's been through. And
so how nice to have a sibling that you can
bounce things off of in that way. And so when
I think about the differences between what you have in
common with John and what you have in common with Blake,
(30:55):
they're different kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Yeah, with John, we just think similarly, which can be
a good or a bad thing, you know. So yes,
talking with Blake definitely would give me a different perspective
on things, and that is something that I liked about
having Blake also kind of in my corner. I think
(31:17):
maybe what you're saying to me is that it does
sound to you as though there's enough between me and
Blake for us to have like a satisfying close relationship
on both sides. And I would actually completely agree with
you on that there's.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
A perception that you have that you and John are
a unit and Blake is your plus one in terms
of a sibling, and I think that probably you have
to challenge that perception a bit in your head because
it's not really leaving a lot of room for Blake
to rise in the hierarchy as it went to become
(31:58):
one of three rather than two and one.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And also it was very different to talk about something
that has to do with other people like your friends
or people at work, then what's going on between the
two of us, And I think where Blake lives is
in this place of I want to address what's gone
on and what goes on between the two of us,
and that might be the harder thing in your family
(32:22):
to talk about. And maybe you and John could talk
about what goes on between the two of you, but
it's not so fraught. But with Blake, there's decades of history,
and I think that that's going to need to be
addressed in a much more direct way in order for
both of you to have more trust and be able
to open up and for you to be able to
(32:43):
see him through new eyes, not of this sibling. That
was problematic because he was annoying to you when you
didn't have anybody to take care of you anyway, and
so you didn't want to have to take care of
a younger sibling or deal with him when it wasn't
really appropriate for you too because you were were young.
But to see him now as someone that is a
really interesting person, and we really do have lots of
(33:06):
things that we could talk about that would be enjoyable,
that wouldn't be forced, that would feel organic. But I
think you have to make sure that these other things
get talked about directly.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
So, Donica, we think you need to have a conversation
with Blake that has several parts to it. The fast
part is to really acknowledge what happened in childhood and
to apologize for it, but in a way that actually
takes responsibility by saying something like, Blake, you know, it
(33:43):
was very difficult for you as a kid. Mom and
dad were out of the house most of the day.
You had two older siblings that were like parental figures,
and instead of protecting you, instead of looking out for you,
we were abusive to you. We made you feel marginalized
and bad and terror and you had no one to
protect you. There, and I can only imagine how horrible
(34:07):
that was for you. You're a school psychologist, You go
to school every day and you work with kids who
are being damaged emotionally. It must be a daily reminder
of what your experience was growing up with us. And
I feel so bad for that, and I really want
to apologize for it in the way that you know
that I am aware of how damaging that was for
(34:31):
you and how much it left scars that you're dealing
with probably today, and it certainly left them in our relationship.
And there was childhood, and then there was stuff that
happened after childhood.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
And one of the things that I think is important
to happen between you is for you to acknowledge that
he isn't crazy, that what he's perceiving about feeling left
out about feeling that you and John have something that
he doesn't, that without intending to you've perpetuated that into adulthood.
(35:09):
And if you can acknowledge that to him and say
I know that there are ways in which I have
continued to marginalize you. And the eye is very important
here because you're not speaking for John. You're trying to
create a direct relationship with Blake, So it's not always
you and John, that it's you and Blake in this moment.
(35:34):
And so one of the things that you can say
is that I realize that I have perpetuated this dynamic
of you being excluded. And when I've been thinking about that,
I've been thinking about all that we do have in
common and how much I haven't communicated that to you,
(35:55):
and all that I admire about you. Here are the
things I admire about you, the things you mentioned to
us earlier about he's thoughtful, he's compassionate, all of the
qualities that you mentioned, And you can say to him,
I have not been proactive in trying to get to
(36:16):
know you as an adult, in trying to have a
closer relationship with you as an adult in this way,
and I would really like to do that. You have
this partner that I think is delightful. I don't know
if you know that, and I really want to open
up that door for us so that I can get
(36:37):
to know you better as an adult, And it's on me.
I need to be doing that. I want to be
doing that. I don't think you know how much I
care about your or how interested I am in you
and your life, and you.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Can even say at the end, I want to do
the work here. All I need from you is to
know that you're willing to have an open mind and
give me the chance to show you what I haven't
been able to show you all these years. And I
want to know if you're willing to give me that chance.
(37:10):
I would ask him directly and hopefully he'll say yes.
And so that's one task we want you to accomplish
this week. And here's the other task we'd like you
to at least set up, but if you could execute,
that would be even better, they say to him. And
part of that is, I do think your partner is delightful.
(37:30):
I'm really interested in getting to know her, and I
would love to set up a zoom dinner with you
and her and my husband and I, the four of
us as two siblings and their spouses, just to have
dinner and just talk. Maybe this weekend if we can.
Because the best way to show Blake that you want
to have the relationship with him is to do it authentically,
(37:50):
and that means get to know the partner, hang out
as couples. And the one thing I would not do
in this entire conversation unless he brings it up is
don't mention John. John is not a part of this.
It's it's you because you can't mend it if it's
for you and John, because that just puts you and
John together again. So no, John, in this conversation, just
(38:12):
do you and Blake? Does that sound doable?
Speaker 3 (38:15):
You have such great ideas, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
So glad you're smiling. Sometimes we give the ideas and
people look at us.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Like, what, No, that all makes sense?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
You look willing.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I'm so glad, And I think the reason that you're
smiling is because we're not asking you to do anything
that you haven't been thinking or feeling. You've been saying,
I really want to have a different relationship with Blake.
But you've had it in your mind that I have
so much in common with John and I don't have
anything in common with Blake, and then when you talk
to us, it's a completely different story. So we want
(38:46):
you to move out of your fixed belief for a
little bit here. Oh and to say, wait a minute,
I need to get to know who Blake is, because already,
without having done the world, there's so much that I
think we would enjoy talking about with each other. But
once I actually put in the effort to get to
(39:07):
know him, I'll bet there's so much more. Okay, yeah,
all right, well good luck. We look forward to hearing
how it goes. I think she's tried so hard in
a lot of ways to say, well, how can I
include you? Maybe we can do a zoom call once
a month, right, And that's not what he's wanting, and
so that's why he hasn't been able to articulate it,
(39:29):
because I think at the core, what he's wanting is
her love, and he doesn't know how to say that.
He doesn't know how to say I want to feel
loved by you. And I think that opening the door
in this way and saying, look, I feel terrible about
what happened. I can imagine what you experienced, and I
(39:49):
also see the ways in which I'm perpetuating that now
and I want to change that. That's how you make
someone feel loved.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
And a really important part here is that we can
not do that with John in the room. He has
to be not present for them to really connect, and
so I hope that will help as well.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yeah, we really have to help them separate out the
sibling relationships. Sometimes siblings get so tangled up in the
coalitions between the siblings, and so John, I'll have whatever
relationship he's going to have with Blake, and maybe Danica's
relationship with Blake, as it improves, will encourage John to
reach out and have a different relationship with Blake, right
(40:32):
to model it for him exactly. But right now I
think there's so much possibility between Danica and Blake. So
I'm really looking forward to hearing how this week goes
for them. You're listening to Dear Therapist from My Heart Radio.
(40:52):
We'll be back after a quick break. So, Guy, we
heard back from Danica, but we should probably share with
people before we listen to that that she actually wrote
(41:13):
to our producer during the week and had some questions
about the assignment we gave her.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yeah, it was a really interesting letter, and why don't
we let up produce a Mike read it?
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Hi, Mike, so sorry. I was hoping you could forward
to Lori and Guy a question for clarification on my homework.
I just wanted to ask if it's okay and how
to tweak this so that it reflects the goal that
I have for this relationship. I want to have what
is probably a pretty typical kind of sibling relationship where
there's musual warmth and periodic enjoyment, but not a buzzombuddy
(41:45):
kind of relationship. I want to be closer, but not
necessarily close. This isn't because I de facto have something
against him or view him as deficient. I know you're
encouraging me to see Blake differently, but I really don't
think our sensibility is John. So it's laborious to have
conversations past a certain point. It's difficult because whether I
(42:06):
find him to be an interesting or engaging person is
a major source of pain and insecurity for him. But
on my side, I don't know how I can really
force feeling interest. I'm as interested in him as I
am in my sister and brothers in law, which means
we are perfectly happy and excited to see each other
and catch up periodically. If this is the case, how
can I really help Blake's pain over the fact that
(42:28):
John and I do just jive while Blake and I
aren't similar in that way? Does the suggest that approach
still apply in this case? Thank you for any clarification, Danica.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
So what we told Mike is to tell Danica that
we gave her the suggestion of what we think she
should do. What she does and what she wants to
do is truly up to her, and we left it
in her hands. And that's why I am super curious
to hear this voicemail.
Speaker 5 (42:57):
Hi Laurie, Hi guy. I wanted to send you an
update on how things have been going with Blake. So
I had a couple talks with him. The first he
was on his way to a camping trip, so the
whole conversation was only twenty five minutes or so. I
apologized for how I treated him when we were kids,
(43:18):
continuing to marginalize him outside of the diad I have
with my older brother, and expressed what I admired and
enjoy about him, and let him know that I wanted
to put in the effort to build a relationship with him,
and it went really well. He said something like Wow,
that was a lot better than what I've expected, and
he really did sound happy and just to lighter than
(43:40):
our past few interactions have been. And then a week
later I had another call with him. It wasn't a
video chat double date. He wanted to talk just the
two of us, so we caught up and circled back
to our relationships and childhood. One thing that we talked
about a lot was the idea that I was in
(44:02):
the role of a pseudo parent as a kid. And
it's interesting because he seems to vacillate between saying he
wants us to be equals, just siblings, not little brother,
older sister, and then also saying he wants an older sister,
someone who looks out for him, goes out of her
way to make him feel wanted and.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Worth the effort to know.
Speaker 5 (44:24):
And I honestly didn't quite understand what he wanted before,
but the thought of going back and trying to be
a better pseudo parent makes sense to me. I kind
of think of it as if we were tennis partners.
I would lob seventy five percent of the balls for
a while and let him lob twenty five percent, so
we would work up to fifty to fifty eventually. And
(44:48):
I just think that it's so neat that my diad
with him and my family has gotten so much out
of talking with you for just an hour or so.
Really want to thank you for helping us. I hope
this podcast helps other listeners out there, especially as we
go into the holidays, So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
So when I heard that email, it felt to me
like Danica was experiencing a lot of resistance to connecting
with Blake. And I wasn't really sure what that was about.
But she had every excuse in the book. You know,
we're really not SYMPATICO. I'm not really sure what we
have in common. John and I just naturally click, which
(45:38):
is everything that Blake is so upset about. And so
it was almost like, after a conversation, which is not uncommon,
she went back to square one because whatever defense is
against whatever she was feeling cropped up brought her back there.
And what we did as therapists was what we would
(45:59):
do if any client who came to see us, which
is here was the conversation, and you make of it
what you will, and we'll talk about it next week.
And that's what we did with her.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
And that's the thing about someone's old story, old script.
It's really strong. So they sit in the session, they
get the advice, but when they leave, it starts to
creep back, and it starts to dominate their thoughts. And
then she goes back to but wait, you know, really
the old way of thinking in that email, it was
almost like we hadn't had the discussion with her. But
the way I felt about the voicemail once I heard
(46:32):
it is exactly like Blake, Oh well, that meant so
much better than I expected, exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
And you can see why he thought that, because everything
that she said there was probably communicated verbally or nonverbally
to Blake in some way. And then when she sat
with it a little bit more, which is what happens
with people, she was able to access the other version
of the story and there was more to the story,
and she.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Said he was very interested in this idea of her
being a bit of a parentified older sister and having
that role. And I think that's in part what he
was responding to that he felt so happy and so
much lighter because that's her owning much more of the
impact than she had previously by just saying sorry, I
was mean to you.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
When we were kids, right, And it was nice to
hear that he doesn't want that forever. What he wants
is an equal relationship, but that there's a lot of
catching up to do, and as they try to repair
this relationship, they're going to have to go through different
phases of it. I thought it was really interesting when
she said in her email, I want to be closer,
(47:38):
but not necessarily close. There's something that she gets out
of this too, So it wasn't just that Blake got
something out of it and he felt better. You could
hear in her voicemail she felt better. And the part
that she's going to have to really explore a little
bit more is why is it scary for her to
(47:58):
get close to him because there was so much resistance
to that? And why is it scary for her to
actually feel some positive feelings toward Blake and to connect
with him the way she connects with John. Now, maybe
she'll never connect with Blake in the same way that
she connects with John. But it seems like even she
is aware, particularly after having these conversations, that there is
(48:21):
a lot of room for connection there. And so what
was that resistance about. That's going to be something for
her to understand better.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
She must have been somewhat apprehensive, like she's opening a
kind of wombs.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
I really feel like she is afraid that she is
going to be confronted by getting closer to him with
maybe her guilt about how she treated him, maybe it's
going to bring up some uncomfortable feelings in her, but
I think if she can not self flagellate over that
and really be the sister that he's always wanted her
(48:53):
to be, that they're both going to grow so much
from this experience.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
The last thing she said that I really liked is
she said, yes, I'll have to love seventy five percent
of the bulls for now, which is a great way
to illor Street that she totally gets that, Yes, the
burden of proof is on me, because this is in
part what Blake was communicating to her. It's nice that
you're saying this. It makes me feel really really good.
I need to see it in action for a little
bit before I can really believe it. And he's right,
(49:21):
he should see it in action, and she should deliver
it in action. And I hope she will indeed do
that because that will really start to realign that relationship.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
And the fact that she had the conversation with him
without John, that it wasn't the siblings as a diad
talking to Blake, and I think that they will do
that double date at some point, meaning Blake and his
partner and Danica and her partner. So they can start
to establish adult sibling relationships that are not about the
(49:51):
three siblings and those dynamics, but about Danica and Blake
and their partners and their adult lives. That will also
be a game changer.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
And I think this shows us that despite how difficult
that childhood was for Blake, for Danika and John two,
but for Blake especially, it's never too late if your
heart is in the right place to do the repair. Hey,
fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice from
(50:22):
the podcast in your own life, send us a quick
voice memo to Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell
us about it. We may include it in a future show.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
And if you're enjoying our podcast each week, please help
support Dear Therapists. You can tell your friends about it
and we'd be so grateful if you leave us a
five star review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews help people
find the show. You can follow us both online. I'm
at Lorigottlieb dot com and you can follow me on
Twitter at Lorigottlieb one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guy Wench. If you have a dilemma
you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, email
us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by
Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Next Week, a man struggles to trust his wife again
after she has an affair.
Speaker 6 (51:23):
She said, I'm sorry for everything I've done. I know
you were hurt. I would like to work it out
with you. Could you give me a chance? I said,
why do you want to come back? The last time
I saw you, I pushed you out.
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Why.
Speaker 6 (51:38):
I just don't understand this.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
This week, a woman tries to forge a relationship with
the younger brother she wasn't very nice to when they
were children.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
It's very emotional to say that, yes, I was awful
to have said that I wish you weren't born, you know,
to a little kid like that, and I have said
that I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Deo therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health providers with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in potter
(01:07):
and full and we may edit it for length, end
or clarity.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Hey guy, this week, we have a letter about some
sibling stuff that's playing out in adulthood. Here's how it goes,
dear therapists. I'm a middle child and have two brothers.
My older brother John and I are less than two
years apart in age, and my younger brother, Blake is
five years younger than I am. We're all in our
(01:32):
mid thirties now. John and I are good friends with
similar sensibilities and interests. We always have a lot to
talk about politics, being parents, etc. Blake, for his whole
life has struggled with feeling unloved and resentful. We grew
up in a household where there was scarce parental attention,
and we had vicious sibling rivalry. We were home alone
(01:52):
from very young ages. Growing up, John and I could
be emotionally cruel toward Blake, leaving him to play by himself,
ignoring him, avoiding him, and so on. I cringe to
tell you that I once told him I wished he
had never been born. I didn't grow out of my
resentment toward Blake until maybe age eleven, at which point
I treated him in a less dysfunctional manner. As adults,
(02:15):
Blake and I have gone through phases of mutually enjoying
each other's company, then being more distant. John was pretty
indifferent toward Blake until his mid to late twenties. For
the last decade or so, John has been a much
better older brother, regularly reaching out to Blake to catch
up and spend time together. Blake still carries a lot
of pain associated with his relationship with us. Every few years,
(02:37):
we talked through his feelings, most recently this past Labor Day.
The gist is that he yearns for a close relationship
with us, but has a hard time because he doesn't
have a history of being in that role with us.
John and I have been ready to have a normal, loving,
happy siblinghood with Blake for a long while, but Blake
insists that we are only going through the motions if
we do reach out, ostracizing him being unworthy of trust
(02:59):
and otherwise still inflicting the pain he's experienced all of
his life. How do we break out of this cycle?
Thanks Danica, Well.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Danica is right, there is a real cycle there, and
I think it might be perpetuating into the present still,
because it just sounds like she and John have so
much of a closer relationship and that Blake feels it.
He felt it in childhood and he feels it still,
and they can say we want to have a loving,
happy sibling relationship, but if he feels that it's the
(03:30):
two of them plus him rather the three of them,
then he's still going to have those feelings. And to
the extent that those are her feelings, then he probably
is picking up something accurate.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
That's right. And when she says that she wants to
have a normal, loving, happy siblinghood with Blake, I wonder
if part of the problem is that she and John
haven't really taken full responsibility for the extent of the
pain that they caused him in childhood. It's almost like
they want to create a situation that doesn't take into
(04:04):
account their history.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And she says they grew up in a household with
scarce parental attention, and that meant that as the youngest
for Blake, he really looked up to his siblings as
parental figures, and so that kind of rejection wasn't just
coming from siblings were older, but from parental figures in
addition to the actual rejection from the parental figures.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Who weren't around, right, I think that there's still a
lot of unresolved issues that are very painful for him,
and I want to find out how willing she and
John have been to be able to not just listen
to Blake's feelings, but be able to take responsibility and
see what they can do to affect some kind of
(04:44):
repair in adulthood. That doesn't take away what happened, but
that can move them forward.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I think just saying now we're going to treat you
normally is not sufficient. There's a makeup to be done.
So let's talk to her. You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio.
We'll be back after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb
(05:10):
and I'm Guy Wench, and this is Deotherapist.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Hi Danica, Hi Laurie, Hey Guy.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Hello, Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Of course, So Danica, we read your letter and you
were talking about this cycle that you seem to be
in with Blake, and I wanted to hear a little
bit more about these conversations that you've been having and
what those conversations are like when you do talk about
(05:39):
what happened in your childhood.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
So the conversations are very emotionally laiden, just like very loaded.
It's mostly my younger brother talking through his experiences, and
my older brother and I trying to listen and trying
to figure out what it is that he needs to
(06:04):
hear from us to help move the situation forward.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
When you say it's mostly him talking, can you tell
us who brought it up? And if it was Blake,
what does he say. I just want to hear a
little bit of the back and forth to get a
sense of how that discussion actually happens.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
This most recent time, he actually told my sister in
law that he was still very troubled by the dynamics
in our family. And then she told us, so then
we knew, and then I told my mom, and she
(06:41):
then really just had her heart set on her kids
having another conversation to work things out. We knew we
were going to be hanging out for Labor Day, and
we just all were planning on, Okay, Labor Day is
going to be when we're going to have another conversation
to hash through everything.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Danica, you say she wanted her kids to have this conversation.
You mean your mom wanted the three of you to
have this conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yes, but it wasn't that we would only have it
because she wanted us to John, and I are always
willing to talk with Blake about any of this. In
the past we would talk, and I think that she
wasn't necessarily aware of those conversations, but this time she
(07:30):
wanted to be there.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I'm really interested in the fact that your mom wants
you to have these conversations. I wonder given your childhood
you describe it as being very difficult, with your parents
not really being present and leaving you kids to your
own devices. Have you and your mom, and I don't
know where your father is in this as well, had
a conversation about what happened for all of you in
(07:54):
your childhood.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Not really it's taken for granted in our family that
my dad would work and then come home and watch
TV didn't really help. He acknowledges that. And then my
mom would also come home around six or seven, make dinner,
and then just kind of be in the scramble at
(08:17):
night getting us ready in Optibet. She just knows that
she was very busy and didn't have very much attention
for us growing up. So it's known in the family.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
It's known because she and your father have said, we
worked a lot, and we had to work a lot
and that's why we weren't there, or it's known because
it was obvious from what happened the former.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
They know like we worked a lot, we were just
doing our best. We know that we didn't have much
time necessarily.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Could you tell us a little bit about what Blake
actually says to you in these conversations, what he voices
as his complaints or his concerns, and how you and
John respond.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I think the main thing he says is he feels
like my older brother and I wear siblings, and we
have in our heads a sense of what it means
to be a brother and a sister. For him, when
he shows up, it's just like he's there, he's not
really participating. He doesn't know how to step into the
(09:25):
role of being this happy, loving brother. He kind of
knows how to play act it, but it doesn't really
feel all that authentic. And he feels like my older
brother doesn't empathize with how his experience was growing up.
(09:45):
And then for me, he says that I'm too inconsistent
as a sister towards him.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
When he voices that, how do you respond to Blake?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Blake asked us repeatedly, what does it mean to you
to be a sibling to me, like, what can he
really count on from us? So we tell him it
means that where people who share a history together, we're
(10:17):
there for each other. We love each other, we share
life updates, and if we need help, then we ask
each other for help and we help each other.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
That might be a nice definition of siblings if you
didn't have the history that you have. But I'm interested
in what he's feeling hurt by, and he said two
specific things. He said, he feels like John doesn't empathize
with him, and he feels like you are inconsistent. Yes,
(10:55):
and so when he says that, how do you address
that with him? Inconsistency?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I asked him would it help if we just have
a regular time that we talk, and he said yes,
So we're going to start there. Since Labor Day, I've
been just texting him on and off. But then we're
going to just have a monthly video call. So I'm
in a just very busy part of life right now
(11:22):
with family and work. He is too, So I think
that's part of the inconsistency. That's the concrete thing that
I offered to see if it would help.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Is there a consistency that you have with John that
you don't have with Blake, And what does that look like.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
We don't have anything scheduled, but I do definitely just
message John naturally, like it doesn't take any effort or planning,
because John and I are close. I count him as
one of my best friends and someone who is just
(12:01):
on the same wavelength as I am. We're really into politics,
for example, So I'll just send him a message with
whatever news is going on. So in that sense, the
consistency is there, and it's not you know, Forester plan
at all.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
It sounds like that when Blake says to you you're inconsistent, Danika,
then you think he means, well, you don't call me
regularly enough, or you don't initiate contact regularly enough. It's possible.
I'm not sure what he means. And when he says
to John that he's not empathetic enough, I'm not sure
(12:38):
if John understands exactly what Blake means by that. So
how much do you actually ask him questions? Blake tell
us more about what consistency would look like. Blake, tell me,
this is John speaking, Blake, tell me where you feel
my lack of empathy where you feel I should have
more compassion, where you feel I should have more understanding.
(13:00):
How much do you ask him to really explain what
he's actually talking about in a very granular way.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I think that both John and I try to do
what you're saying, And what I recall is that it
was a lot of I don't knows from Blake, like
like we would say, well, what does family look like
for you, and it would be I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I think because what he's trying to convey to you
is a feeling, and the feeling that he has is
that I'm not part of this group. Still, I don't
feel I have the closeness with you Danika that John has.
I don't feel that I have the closeness with you
John that Danika has, And I don't know how to
feel more accepted and more that I belong within that
(13:55):
circle of siblings. Possibly he doesn't articulate that, but my
suspicion is that's what he's talking about. He just doesn't
feel a part.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, that's completely accurate.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
There's a difference between a conversation that goes like Blake
saying to you, Daniku, I feel like you're inconsistent with me,
and because you want to help, you are saying, okay,
well then let's have a video call every month, versus
a conversation that goes like Danik gout, I think there's
this inconsistency that you have with me, and you are saying,
(14:31):
tell me more about what you mean by that, and
he might say I don't know the first few times,
but I think what he's getting at is that there's
something that hasn't been healed between the three of you,
and there's something that he's wanting and maybe he doesn't
know how to articulate it. And one of the very
(14:51):
first things you said when we first started talking today
was you don't know what he needs to hear from you.
And I have a feeling that one thing he hasn't
maybe heard from you is a real sense of we
were terrible to you. We take responsibility for that. What
(15:15):
have those conversations been like where you go back and
take full responsibility for the extent of the pain that
you caused him as a child.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
I have done that, like just acknowledged how awful I
was to him. For me, also, it's very emotional, you know,
to say that, yes, I was awful. You were very
much on your own, as like a five or a
six year old. Yes, I did ignore you, didn't play
(15:49):
with you. I didn't say this in the most recent
time we talked, but to have said that I wish
you weren't born, you know, to a little kid like that,
and I have said that I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
How does he respond to that?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I held his hands and I cried and told him
how what a small thing it is to just share
some blood with somebody and be siblings, but also how
big of a thing it is, and how you know
it's like important. So he cried as well. But the
conversations that I had with him afterwards, it was still
(16:28):
a lot of railing on his part against how he
perceives my role and what I think Guy is describing
like still making him feel like an outsider. We had,
at least on the surface, a perfectly fine relationship for
several years into adulthood, and then within the past two
years or so he kind of cut me off, and
(16:49):
I asked, and he said, I do still somehow reinforce
the same dynamics that have been in place our whole lives.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
How does he think you reinforce those patterns from child,
even though you're trying so hard not to.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I think he does definitely pick up. I mean I
even told him John and I we just have a
lot in common and we just naturally gravitate towards each
other as friends, and I think it really pains him
that if we weren't siblings with him, we probably would
not be friends. If we'd all met in the work
(17:26):
setting or something like, John and I would probably just
like hang out, but Blake would not be part of
that because we're just different.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
But that's the thing, he says, I feel like an outsider.
And your response is, well, you know, John and I
are are closer and we have more in common, so
that's a natural thing that we would be closer. But
that's the wound for him, well one of them, and
so that might be the reality, but his feeling is
probably well, there are lots of siblings that don't have
(17:58):
a ton in common, but they still have of a
really close bond, and he doesn't feel that close bond.
How much do you really know him as an adult?
How much do you talk to him about his life
or about other things that go on with him to
really get to know who this person is these days.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
I would say that there was a period of time,
so he's in his early thirties, maybe early twenties to
later twenties, when I would just call him, we would talk.
We were both dating then, so we complain about dating together,
and we would talk about our jobs and whatever we
were stressed about. So at that point I would say
(18:41):
I knew his day to day pretty well. Even now,
I feel like I know him at a fundamental level,
just in terms of his personality and generally what he's
interested in, But I don't know his day to day
that well. So for the last couple years, I would
call him not that frequently, maybe like once a month
or once every couple of months, and he wouldn't pick up,
(19:03):
like you just at that point, I think was in
the mode where he felt like he wanted to distance
from me.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So it's interesting because when you described that, oh he
was dating, I was dating. We would talk about, you know,
complaints about dating, and that's just fothered for so many conversations.
But he must have felt at that point like, oh,
like we're buddies now, like you know, this is something
we have in common. We're going through it together. In
some kind of way. It's probably the kind of thing
that he was looking for in terms of feeling close
(19:34):
and that he has stuff in common with you and
that you're mutually interested in one another. When did that end?
When the dating kind of ended.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
It wasn't like anything conscious on my end to have
that stop. It was just I had my first kid
and just got really busy. Of course, you know, he
could probably say, well, you still talk with John through
all of that, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
But even before your first kid, I'm assuming there was
a relationship that happened before that that took you out
to the dating game, So you lost that common touch point.
Did he into a relationship around the time or soon thereafter?
Is he in one now?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
He actually broke up pretty soon after that, and then
that was a very hard breakup for him, I think.
So it was actually at that point where on both
sides we just ended up talking less.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
After the breakup, because you would think that's when he
would need more support.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Were you concerned about him or did you think about
him as he was going through this really tough breakup?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, I mean I reached out to ask how he
was doing, probably more than once, you know, just like
checking in and I've always been interested in just knowing
what's going on with his dating life, so I would
just periodically call and ask him about that and how
it's going.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Where do you think John was all of this? You
said it wasn't until later that John changed his orientation
toward Blake. You guys were sort of talking about dating
and you were having a bit of a closer relationship.
Where was John in his relationship with Blake at that time?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
John starting in like late twenties and so Blake was
early twenties. John would start to just reach out and
see if Blake wanted to hang out and call him periodically.
So I think John was around I live in another state,
so I don't have that closeive of you into things.
But my understanding is John would just periodically call him
(21:43):
and see if he was also going to be hanging
out with our parents on you know, around the holidays
and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
But do you think, for example, during the breakup, that
John was reaching out to him too, or that he
would be able to talk to his older brother about
what he was going through.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Not extensive, but I think some like after the breakup,
Blake actually stayed at John's house for a period of
I don't know, a week or something like that.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Is Blake in a relationship now? Has he had relationship
since that breakup?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
He is in a relationship now, yes, And do you
know his partner. I've only met her once and I
think she's darling, so I really like her. I met
her over a Labor Day. They've been dating for almost
a year now. But Blake has actually said he is
really nervous about having us meet her get to know her.
(22:38):
He said it's because it's upon further reflection that he
realized how much of a role I play and continuing
to isolate him.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
I guess I can see in your face how much
you really want things to be better between the two
of you. At least it's very clear you wrote the
letter this is what you want to figure out. What's
interesting is that he keeps saying, you know, consistent enough,
(23:05):
I'm worried about your influence still about making me an outsider.
I'm hesitant to introduce you to the partner. And I'm
not hearing you say to him. You know, Blake, you
keep feeling rejected by me, and I'm not sure when
that's happening or how that's happening. Could you help me understand,
because that's not my intention, and it must be happening
(23:26):
if you're feeling that way, But I need your help
and understanding in what way.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I haven't said those exact things to him, but I
am happy to try.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, there seems to be this divide that's existed since childhood,
and even though you and John have tried to become
closer and more inclusive with him, he's still feeling very
much how he felt as a child. And that makes
me wonder too a little bit about not only what
(23:58):
patterns are persistence so childhood, but also how have the
three of you worked through whatever you experienced in childhood
with your parents. So we talked a little bit about
how your mom and dad acknowledged that they worked a lot.
Did anybody talk about what went on with the siblings
(24:19):
with your parents? Are they aware of what went on
with Blake? And have you and John come to terms
in some way with what happened in childhood in a
way that maybe Blake hasn't, because it's not just a
sibling issue for Blake that he was so young that
(24:42):
you two were sort of like surrogate parents to him.
And so he was rejected not just by siblings, but
also by the closest thing he had to someone older
than him who could take care of him in some way.
And you two were a little bit older, and maybe
you came to whatever terms you came to with what
happened as children, and you seem to have a good
(25:03):
relationship at least with your mom. I'm not sure where
things are with your dad, but I don't know what
Blake has done in terms of coming to terms with that,
And do you have any understanding or knowledge from him
about where he stands now as an adult visa for
your parents.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I think he actually said for a long time he
just hated my dad, and now he doesn't hate my dad,
but just kind of an indifference, which, to be honest,
is kind of in the boat that I'm in as well.
With my mom, she's a really amazing woman in a
lot of ways, very loving, and she tried her best.
(25:41):
So for me, I feel like I made peace with that.
And then for him, she's the sole person who gave
him the love and nurturing that a child should receive.
So I don't think he has any kind of anger
towards her, If anything, he's very defensive on her behalf
suggest that there were certain things where she may have
(26:04):
fell short. He's very defensive about her.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
So he feels that he was taken care of by
your mom.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I would say that he agrees that we were neglected
to some degree, but then he very quickly says, well,
that was the best that she could do.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Can you tell us a little bit more about why
there's this anger towards your dad, because so far you've
told us that they both worked a lot and weren't there.
But what was the difference between how your mom was
and how your dad was when you were growing up.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
He had a very short temper. He would yell at
us when we were younger, he would hit us. He
didn't participate much in the things that you do to
raise children. He really did just work and then watch
TV a lot of the time. So I think for
me at least, and probably for my younger brother, we
(26:58):
just felt like he was abusive of our mom, even
not verbally or physically, but in terms of having her
be a single parent.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Are they still married, yes? Have you ever talked to
your dad about how you feel about his role in
your childhood.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Not specifically how absent he.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Was, or his anger or you know, for hitting or
any of that.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I mean, it's like known. Even my dad would see
how I am with my kids, for example, or how
my husband is with our kids and say, like, I
know I was nothing like that when you guys are
growing up, and I know I have your mom to
thank for everything for how well our family has turned
out because I was so absent, and now I'm trying
(27:55):
to make up for it. How I can, Like he
would say things like.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
That, are letting him make up for it?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah, I think so. I mean I love to have
my kids interact with him, and like he would come
and help me regularly with things that I have going
on in my life. I try to show him affection.
How I can back.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
To Blake for a minute. What are the things about
him that you like, respect that my feel you have
commonality with. Tell me what the touch points are.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
He's a very caring person. He's a school psychologist. I
think it's pretty amazing to work with the population of
kids that he works with. I think that he's a
very reliable and loyal person, and he has certain goals
(28:52):
that he works towards steadily, like financial goals, and health goals.
When we were relating on a pretty comfortable basis, he
was just kind of like a good person for me
to bounce my feelings or thoughts.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
So it sounds like there is enough a foundation there
for a closer relationship on your end, because what comes
across in the letter, and it came across when you
talk about John, is that the connection with John is
so much deeper, so much more profound. So it's at
such a different level than the connection with Blake was
(29:33):
is or could be even And I'm not sure if
that's how you really feel, but that's what comes across. Yeah,
And then when you talk about Blake, and it sounds
like there actually could be a real connection at a
deeper level. So that's what I'm a little confused by.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And when I think about the kinds of things you
talk about in terms of commonality. So with John, you
love to talk about politics, which isn't deep in your
personal types of things, but it's fun. You guys love that.
With Blake, you said, well, I ran things by him,
you know, emotional things you ran by him. And maybe
(30:11):
because he's a school psychologist and he's very interested in
people's in your lives. He's a really good person for that,
And I have a feeling that in your family, even
though there's so much love there, you know, you've said
about a few things, it's just understood. We don't really
talk about it. It just understood in our family. But
(30:33):
Blake is somebody who wants to talk about certain things.
And he's also somebody who's very insightful and wise in
that way, probably because of what he's been through. And
so how nice to have a sibling that you can
bounce things off of in that way. And so when
I think about the differences between what you have in
common with John and what you have in common with Blake,
(30:55):
they're different kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Yeah, with John, we just think similarly, which can be
a good or a bad thing, you know. So yes,
talking with Blake definitely would give me a different perspective
on things, and that is something that I liked about
having Blake also kind of in my corner. I think
(31:17):
maybe what you're saying to me is that it does
sound to you as though there's enough between me and
Blake for us to have like a satisfying close relationship
on both sides. And I would actually completely agree with
you on that there's.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
A perception that you have that you and John are
a unit and Blake is your plus one in terms
of a sibling, and I think that probably you have
to challenge that perception a bit in your head because
it's not really leaving a lot of room for Blake
to rise in the hierarchy as it went to become
(31:58):
one of three rather than two and one.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And also it was very different to talk about something
that has to do with other people like your friends
or people at work, then what's going on between the
two of us, And I think where Blake lives is
in this place of I want to address what's gone
on and what goes on between the two of us,
and that might be the harder thing in your family
(32:22):
to talk about. And maybe you and John could talk
about what goes on between the two of you, but
it's not so fraught. But with Blake, there's decades of history,
and I think that that's going to need to be
addressed in a much more direct way in order for
both of you to have more trust and be able
to open up and for you to be able to
(32:43):
see him through new eyes, not of this sibling. That
was problematic because he was annoying to you when you
didn't have anybody to take care of you anyway, and
so you didn't want to have to take care of
a younger sibling or deal with him when it wasn't
really appropriate for you too because you were were young.
But to see him now as someone that is a
really interesting person, and we really do have lots of
(33:06):
things that we could talk about that would be enjoyable,
that wouldn't be forced, that would feel organic. But I
think you have to make sure that these other things
get talked about directly.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
So, Donica, we think you need to have a conversation
with Blake that has several parts to it. The fast
part is to really acknowledge what happened in childhood and
to apologize for it, but in a way that actually
takes responsibility by saying something like, Blake, you know, it
(33:43):
was very difficult for you as a kid. Mom and
dad were out of the house most of the day.
You had two older siblings that were like parental figures,
and instead of protecting you, instead of looking out for you,
we were abusive to you. We made you feel marginalized
and bad and terror and you had no one to
protect you. There, and I can only imagine how horrible
(34:07):
that was for you. You're a school psychologist, You go
to school every day and you work with kids who
are being damaged emotionally. It must be a daily reminder
of what your experience was growing up with us. And
I feel so bad for that, and I really want
to apologize for it in the way that you know
that I am aware of how damaging that was for
(34:31):
you and how much it left scars that you're dealing
with probably today, and it certainly left them in our relationship.
And there was childhood, and then there was stuff that
happened after childhood.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
And one of the things that I think is important
to happen between you is for you to acknowledge that
he isn't crazy, that what he's perceiving about feeling left
out about feeling that you and John have something that
he doesn't, that without intending to you've perpetuated that into adulthood.
(35:09):
And if you can acknowledge that to him and say
I know that there are ways in which I have
continued to marginalize you. And the eye is very important
here because you're not speaking for John. You're trying to
create a direct relationship with Blake, So it's not always
you and John, that it's you and Blake in this moment.
(35:34):
And so one of the things that you can say
is that I realize that I have perpetuated this dynamic
of you being excluded. And when I've been thinking about that,
I've been thinking about all that we do have in
common and how much I haven't communicated that to you,
(35:55):
and all that I admire about you. Here are the
things I admire about you, the things you mentioned to
us earlier about he's thoughtful, he's compassionate, all of the
qualities that you mentioned, And you can say to him,
I have not been proactive in trying to get to
(36:16):
know you as an adult, in trying to have a
closer relationship with you as an adult in this way,
and I would really like to do that. You have
this partner that I think is delightful. I don't know
if you know that, and I really want to open
up that door for us so that I can get
(36:37):
to know you better as an adult, And it's on me.
I need to be doing that. I want to be
doing that. I don't think you know how much I
care about your or how interested I am in you
and your life, and you.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Can even say at the end, I want to do
the work here. All I need from you is to
know that you're willing to have an open mind and
give me the chance to show you what I haven't
been able to show you all these years. And I
want to know if you're willing to give me that chance.
(37:10):
I would ask him directly and hopefully he'll say yes.
And so that's one task we want you to accomplish
this week. And here's the other task we'd like you
to at least set up, but if you could execute,
that would be even better, they say to him. And
part of that is, I do think your partner is delightful.
(37:30):
I'm really interested in getting to know her, and I
would love to set up a zoom dinner with you
and her and my husband and I, the four of
us as two siblings and their spouses, just to have
dinner and just talk. Maybe this weekend if we can.
Because the best way to show Blake that you want
to have the relationship with him is to do it authentically,
(37:50):
and that means get to know the partner, hang out
as couples. And the one thing I would not do
in this entire conversation unless he brings it up is
don't mention John. John is not a part of this.
It's it's you because you can't mend it if it's
for you and John, because that just puts you and
John together again. So no, John, in this conversation, just
(38:12):
do you and Blake? Does that sound doable?
Speaker 3 (38:15):
You have such great ideas, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
So glad you're smiling. Sometimes we give the ideas and
people look at us.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Like, what, No, that all makes sense?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
You look willing.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I'm so glad, And I think the reason that you're
smiling is because we're not asking you to do anything
that you haven't been thinking or feeling. You've been saying,
I really want to have a different relationship with Blake.
But you've had it in your mind that I have
so much in common with John and I don't have
anything in common with Blake, and then when you talk
to us, it's a completely different story. So we want
(38:46):
you to move out of your fixed belief for a
little bit here. Oh and to say, wait a minute,
I need to get to know who Blake is, because already,
without having done the world, there's so much that I
think we would enjoy talking about with each other. But
once I actually put in the effort to get to
(39:07):
know him, I'll bet there's so much more. Okay, yeah,
all right, well good luck. We look forward to hearing
how it goes. I think she's tried so hard in
a lot of ways to say, well, how can I
include you? Maybe we can do a zoom call once
a month, right, And that's not what he's wanting, and
so that's why he hasn't been able to articulate it,
(39:29):
because I think at the core, what he's wanting is
her love, and he doesn't know how to say that.
He doesn't know how to say I want to feel
loved by you. And I think that opening the door
in this way and saying, look, I feel terrible about
what happened. I can imagine what you experienced, and I
(39:49):
also see the ways in which I'm perpetuating that now
and I want to change that. That's how you make
someone feel loved.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
And a really important part here is that we can
not do that with John in the room. He has
to be not present for them to really connect, and
so I hope that will help as well.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yeah, we really have to help them separate out the
sibling relationships. Sometimes siblings get so tangled up in the
coalitions between the siblings, and so John, I'll have whatever
relationship he's going to have with Blake, and maybe Danica's
relationship with Blake, as it improves, will encourage John to
reach out and have a different relationship with Blake, right
(40:32):
to model it for him exactly. But right now I
think there's so much possibility between Danica and Blake. So
I'm really looking forward to hearing how this week goes
for them. You're listening to Dear Therapist from My Heart Radio.
(40:52):
We'll be back after a quick break. So, Guy, we
heard back from Danica, but we should probably share with
people before we listen to that that she actually wrote
(41:13):
to our producer during the week and had some questions
about the assignment we gave her.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yeah, it was a really interesting letter, and why don't
we let up produce a Mike read it?
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Hi, Mike, so sorry. I was hoping you could forward
to Lori and Guy a question for clarification on my homework.
I just wanted to ask if it's okay and how
to tweak this so that it reflects the goal that
I have for this relationship. I want to have what
is probably a pretty typical kind of sibling relationship where
there's musual warmth and periodic enjoyment, but not a buzzombuddy
(41:45):
kind of relationship. I want to be closer, but not
necessarily close. This isn't because I de facto have something
against him or view him as deficient. I know you're
encouraging me to see Blake differently, but I really don't
think our sensibility is John. So it's laborious to have
conversations past a certain point. It's difficult because whether I
(42:06):
find him to be an interesting or engaging person is
a major source of pain and insecurity for him. But
on my side, I don't know how I can really
force feeling interest. I'm as interested in him as I
am in my sister and brothers in law, which means
we are perfectly happy and excited to see each other
and catch up periodically. If this is the case, how
can I really help Blake's pain over the fact that
(42:28):
John and I do just jive while Blake and I
aren't similar in that way? Does the suggest that approach
still apply in this case? Thank you for any clarification, Danica.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
So what we told Mike is to tell Danica that
we gave her the suggestion of what we think she
should do. What she does and what she wants to
do is truly up to her, and we left it
in her hands. And that's why I am super curious
to hear this voicemail.
Speaker 5 (42:57):
Hi Laurie, Hi guy. I wanted to send you an
update on how things have been going with Blake. So
I had a couple talks with him. The first he
was on his way to a camping trip, so the
whole conversation was only twenty five minutes or so. I
apologized for how I treated him when we were kids,
(43:18):
continuing to marginalize him outside of the diad I have
with my older brother, and expressed what I admired and
enjoy about him, and let him know that I wanted
to put in the effort to build a relationship with him,
and it went really well. He said something like Wow,
that was a lot better than what I've expected, and
he really did sound happy and just to lighter than
(43:40):
our past few interactions have been. And then a week
later I had another call with him. It wasn't a
video chat double date. He wanted to talk just the
two of us, so we caught up and circled back
to our relationships and childhood. One thing that we talked
about a lot was the idea that I was in
(44:02):
the role of a pseudo parent as a kid. And
it's interesting because he seems to vacillate between saying he
wants us to be equals, just siblings, not little brother,
older sister, and then also saying he wants an older sister,
someone who looks out for him, goes out of her
way to make him feel wanted and.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Worth the effort to know.
Speaker 5 (44:24):
And I honestly didn't quite understand what he wanted before,
but the thought of going back and trying to be
a better pseudo parent makes sense to me. I kind
of think of it as if we were tennis partners.
I would lob seventy five percent of the balls for
a while and let him lob twenty five percent, so
we would work up to fifty to fifty eventually. And
(44:48):
I just think that it's so neat that my diad
with him and my family has gotten so much out
of talking with you for just an hour or so.
Really want to thank you for helping us. I hope
this podcast helps other listeners out there, especially as we
go into the holidays, So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
So when I heard that email, it felt to me
like Danica was experiencing a lot of resistance to connecting
with Blake. And I wasn't really sure what that was about.
But she had every excuse in the book. You know,
we're really not SYMPATICO. I'm not really sure what we
have in common. John and I just naturally click, which
(45:38):
is everything that Blake is so upset about. And so
it was almost like, after a conversation, which is not uncommon,
she went back to square one because whatever defense is
against whatever she was feeling cropped up brought her back there.
And what we did as therapists was what we would
(45:59):
do if any client who came to see us, which
is here was the conversation, and you make of it
what you will, and we'll talk about it next week.
And that's what we did with her.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
And that's the thing about someone's old story, old script.
It's really strong. So they sit in the session, they
get the advice, but when they leave, it starts to
creep back, and it starts to dominate their thoughts. And
then she goes back to but wait, you know, really
the old way of thinking in that email, it was
almost like we hadn't had the discussion with her. But
the way I felt about the voicemail once I heard
(46:32):
it is exactly like Blake, Oh well, that meant so
much better than I expected, exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
And you can see why he thought that, because everything
that she said there was probably communicated verbally or nonverbally
to Blake in some way. And then when she sat
with it a little bit more, which is what happens
with people, she was able to access the other version
of the story and there was more to the story,
and she.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Said he was very interested in this idea of her
being a bit of a parentified older sister and having
that role. And I think that's in part what he
was responding to that he felt so happy and so
much lighter because that's her owning much more of the
impact than she had previously by just saying sorry, I
was mean to you.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
When we were kids, right, And it was nice to
hear that he doesn't want that forever. What he wants
is an equal relationship, but that there's a lot of
catching up to do, and as they try to repair
this relationship, they're going to have to go through different
phases of it. I thought it was really interesting when
she said in her email, I want to be closer,
(47:38):
but not necessarily close. There's something that she gets out
of this too, So it wasn't just that Blake got
something out of it and he felt better. You could
hear in her voicemail she felt better. And the part
that she's going to have to really explore a little
bit more is why is it scary for her to
(47:58):
get close to him because there was so much resistance
to that? And why is it scary for her to
actually feel some positive feelings toward Blake and to connect
with him the way she connects with John. Now, maybe
she'll never connect with Blake in the same way that
she connects with John. But it seems like even she
is aware, particularly after having these conversations, that there is
(48:21):
a lot of room for connection there. And so what
was that resistance about. That's going to be something for
her to understand better.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
She must have been somewhat apprehensive, like she's opening a
kind of wombs.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
I really feel like she is afraid that she is
going to be confronted by getting closer to him with
maybe her guilt about how she treated him, maybe it's
going to bring up some uncomfortable feelings in her, but
I think if she can not self flagellate over that
and really be the sister that he's always wanted her
(48:53):
to be, that they're both going to grow so much
from this experience.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
The last thing she said that I really liked is
she said, yes, I'll have to love seventy five percent
of the bulls for now, which is a great way
to illor Street that she totally gets that, Yes, the
burden of proof is on me, because this is in
part what Blake was communicating to her. It's nice that
you're saying this. It makes me feel really really good.
I need to see it in action for a little
bit before I can really believe it. And he's right,
(49:21):
he should see it in action, and she should deliver
it in action. And I hope she will indeed do
that because that will really start to realign that relationship.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
And the fact that she had the conversation with him
without John, that it wasn't the siblings as a diad
talking to Blake, and I think that they will do
that double date at some point, meaning Blake and his
partner and Danica and her partner. So they can start
to establish adult sibling relationships that are not about the
(49:51):
three siblings and those dynamics, but about Danica and Blake
and their partners and their adult lives. That will also
be a game changer.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
And I think this shows us that despite how difficult
that childhood was for Blake, for Danika and John two,
but for Blake especially, it's never too late if your
heart is in the right place to do the repair. Hey,
fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice from
(50:22):
the podcast in your own life, send us a quick
voice memo to Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell
us about it. We may include it in a future show.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
And if you're enjoying our podcast each week, please help
support Dear Therapists. You can tell your friends about it
and we'd be so grateful if you leave us a
five star review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews help people
find the show. You can follow us both online. I'm
at Lorigottlieb dot com and you can follow me on
Twitter at Lorigottlieb one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guy Wench. If you have a dilemma
you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, email
us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by
Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Next Week, a man struggles to trust his wife again
after she has an affair.
Speaker 6 (51:23):
She said, I'm sorry for everything I've done. I know
you were hurt. I would like to work it out
with you. Could you give me a chance? I said,
why do you want to come back? The last time
I saw you, I pushed you out.
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Why.
Speaker 6 (51:38):
I just don't understand this.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
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