July 2, 2024 • 42 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week, a married couple with kids struggles to come to a decision on where to raise their family. Ryan wants their kids to grow up near his family in Nebraska. Beth wants them to live near her mother in New York. We show them a new way to talk through an impasse that's been causing resentment and keeping them stuck for years.
If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at LoriAndGuy@iHeartMedia.com.
Follow us both online:
LoriGottlieb.com and on Twitter @LoriGottlieb1 and Instagram @lorigottlieb_author
GuyWinch.com and on Twitter @GuyWinch and Instagram @Guy Winch
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Winch.
I wrote Emotional First Aid and I write that Dear
Guy called him for ted And this is the a therapists.
There's an old real estate adage that goes location, location, location.
This week we'll talk about how that applies in a marriage.
(00:27):
We both were very close to our families, but we
kind of thought we would figure this out later. It's
helped me realize so much that where you are located
matters for future planning. Listen in and maybe learn something
about yourself in the process. Hey, just a note before
we start. Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does
(00:49):
not constitute medical advice, and is not a substitute for
professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice
of your physician, mental health professional, or other qualified health
provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.
By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeart
Media use it in part or and full, and we
(01:10):
may edit it for length and or clarity. Hi, Lourie. Hey, guy,
So what do we have in our box this week?
We actually have a letter from a couple. Oh yes,
I know, right here there it goes. Dear Lori and Guy.
My wife and I have had ten years of a
mostly happy marriage and have two wonderful boys, ages seven
(01:30):
and four. We met in the Washington, d c. Area,
away from our families, mine in Nebraska, hers on Long Island.
Five years ago, her father received a terminal cancer diagnosis,
so in early seventeen we decided to move to Long
Island to be with him. We had nine good months
with him before he succumbed to cancer on January one.
(01:52):
After the sad year of first we discussed where to
buy a home. I preferred Omaha, where my parents live,
along with my three sisters and their five oljan Our
kids genuinely love their cousins and have so much fun
with them. My wife wanted to live near her mother
and has no desire to live in the Midwest. I
shared her concern for her mother, but I'm not okay
making our family's decision solely for her mother's benefit. After
(02:15):
two rounds of marriage counseling, we decided last summer that
I would look for a location oriented job, which I
ultimately found in Omaha. Unhappily, she agreed to move to
Omaha for a couple of years. We agreed to check
in every year and after two or three years determine
where we should settle in and raise our kids. A
big part of the agreement was that her job would
(02:36):
take her back to New York regularly and we would
take other trips there as well, But COVID nineteen has
wrecked that plan. Now, whenever we talk about big picture
geography decisions, we end up in serious arguments and make
no progress. How can we figure out where to live
long term without it being a win lose situation? That
(02:57):
is a tough one because what they want for us
is a solution. They want us to arbitrate and tell
them what to do. And I think in these situations
when couples come in, what we can do is help
them learn to talk about this differently and how it
ends up being in this you win, I lose or
(03:18):
I win you lose kind of situation for them. Yeah,
I think a right two rounds of couple of therapy good.
I'm always good with that. But what did they get
out of it? Was it really focused entirely on this dilemma?
Did they learn anything from the couple of therapy? Maybe
there are other issues there. The thing about couple of
therapy is that so many times somebody feels like they're
(03:38):
getting the therapist on their side. So did somebody feel like, Okay,
the therapist took my side and now this isn't working,
so we're going to go to another therapist. The other
thing that you mentioned was is there something else that
this argument is standing in for? So sometimes a couple
comes in and there's some kind of problem that they're
coming in with, but as therapist, we listened for them
(04:00):
music under the lyrics. The lyrics are we have this
geographic problem. We we are stuck and we can't get
out of it. But is there something else in the
marriage that they aren't talking about? And sometimes when you
deal with an issue for a long time and meanwhile
they've had kids and all these things have happened, So
sometimes you just get entrenched in your old position and
(04:20):
you haven't adapted it for new realities or for new
evolution of dynamics between the two people, like what should
have changed a little bit? I think that they're looking
at this through a lens that doesn't work for this
kind of problem where they feel like the way that
we compromise is like everything is fifty fifty. We do
half of this for you, will live here for me,
and then we'll go for these years and live here
(04:42):
for you. But sometimes fifty fifty doesn't mean that you
literally split that one issue down the middle. And so
what other areas in their marriage, if any, do they
feel that there's a disequilibrium and how have they handled
that right? Other question is for whom are they making
(05:03):
this decision? Is it for each of them? Is it
what's best for the kids? We know that she's considering
her mother and what would be best for her. He's
considering his family as well. But in the ranking, there
whose priorities, whose needs are central to them? Yeah, do
you know that exercise? The paper exercise where you give
(05:24):
a couple a piece of paper and they hold it
between them and they have to decide who's going to
get to keep the paper Basically, and so the paper
represents something that each person respectively really wants. It tells
you a lot about how they relate to each other
unrelated to the specific issue at hand. I always look
(05:45):
around for props. When I'm doing couple's work. Sometimes I'll
grab an eraser and I'll pass it to the person.
So they're going to raise something they said if they
feel it was the wrong thing to say in the
first go around. In other words, in a couple of therapy,
props are great. You're listening to dear therapist from my
heart radio. We'll be back after a quick break. This
(06:11):
is de a therapists. Thanks for listening. Should we go
talk to them? Yes, let's do that. Well, Hi, guys,
thanks so much for coming on. Hey, thank you for
having us. Thank you, You're very welcome. And I guess
my first question is you mentioned that you've had two
rounds of couples therapy. Could you tell us just a
little bit about those rounds and what you got out
(06:33):
of them? Yeah. So, um, they were both in New
York when we were working through this, and they were
focused on this issue of geography, and we talked through
a lot of different things and honestly didn't get anywhere. Well,
I don't know. The first time we went was just
(06:55):
six months after my dad passed away, and that therapist
after about four of five sessions, and you need to
stop coming here because you shouldn't make any major life
decisions within the first year of a major loss. So
we stopped and then we picked it up again. So
I think it gave us time to breathe, which was
really helpful. So in that time when you had the
time to breathe, was that kind of looming between the
(07:17):
two of you or were you able to put it
aside knowing that you would come back to it. It
was day by day, a week by week. I mean
it varied because we had you know, things would come up.
People would say to us, Oh, we wish you would
just move back to d C. This house came up
for sale, Just come back where one of his sisters
(07:37):
would send us a house for sale in Omaha and
would be like, goddamn. So he's kind of there. And also,
you know, on a day to day basis, we were good,
no problem, happy activities. But so much of life is
looking towards the future, especially with young kids. Yeah, it
makes it really hard to plan. That's oh, our kids
(07:59):
will go through elementary school together. That's a five or
six year commitment. Oh here's where you'd go. What about
if we planned this for next summer, where would we
drive or fly from right, I mean, helped me realize
so much that where you are located matters for future planning.
And so when you first got married, you moved to
d C. Right. We were in d C when we met, right, okay,
(08:23):
And so did you imagine that that would be your
community and that's where you would put down roots when
you got married? Not really. D C is so transient
if you if you know people who live there, most
people aren't from there, I think because of politics and
the hell. We had so many friends who struggled with
the exact same thing, and we both were very close
(08:44):
to our families, but we kind of thought we would
figure this out later. Before you got married. You never
explicitly had a conversation about the fact that a you
would probably leave d C and be where that might be,
or what that might look like. We talked about it
a bit. I think I've said many times I never
want to live in Omaha ever, and I said I
(09:06):
never want to live in New York, and then you
and you know, I mean, it was also in the
early dating phase it was like, oh, that sounds interesting,
And in our early to mid twenties, I felt so
far away and it was like, well, we're just going
to live through this year and that ten years from
(09:27):
now whatever. We'll figure it out at that point. So
let me ask you something you've It sounds like you've
had this discussion innumerable times, So what happens these days?
What does that discussion even look like? I think it
changed a little bit with I've always had a job
that I could take anywhere with me and Ryan was
(09:50):
suddenly unhappy in his job, and it was a bit
more of the ball is in his court and not
kind of change things I would say when it felt
like this isn't just where we want to live, this
is also career driven to Yeah, so how did it
come about that you got this job in Omaha? Are
you on now? Was that a negotiated thing? My role
(10:13):
was becoming less valuable, less fulfilling, and so I was
starting to look and we said, okay, how about if
you look for jobs and maybe that'll help push us
one way or another. So I looked for four months
um and applied for jobs in New York and in
Omaha and eventually got this offer. And was that a
(10:37):
result of the conversations in your second round of couples therapy.
So the first round of couples therapy, the therapist said,
you're still grieving, it might not be a good time
to make a big life decision. Second round, What did
those conversations look like? One of you is going to
have to make the sacrifice and have to figure out
(10:58):
how to not resent the other person. She was kind of,
this is really hard yep, When yep, there's no compelling
event here, she didn't give us a lot of hope. No,
That's when I asked earlier about whether the job in
Omaha was the result of negotiational sorts. Ryan kind of
(11:18):
and you kind of didn't, you know. Your face was
like not really, So can you actually tell me what
was behind that facetook response of yours. We said that
it would be great to have a compelling event. We
have different opinions about this, but I think I'm right. Uh,
the vigor the effort he put into searching for dabs
(11:42):
in the two locations was not the same, and it
was I think you were checking boxes for the East coast,
but you were much more proactive for Omaha because that's
what you wanted. And that kind of I felt like
when the decision came, when like you flew out for
the interview and then you got the offer. My take
on it at the time was I was kind of
(12:03):
forced into a position. We did not communicate well about
this at all. We were garbage at communicating this, like
and people have asked us, how did you make this decision,
and we said, we could tell you how not to
make this decision. So, yeah, he got the offer. He
was excited. I didn't know how to say, no, yeah,
here we are. It sounds so much like you want
(12:24):
someone or some external event to make this decision for
you instead of working through this as a couple. And
that's what makes it hard. It's almost like you knew
that there was this difference before you got married. Maybe
an equivalent would be a couple who one person says
they don't think they want kids, the other person says
(12:44):
they think they do want kids, but oh, we'll work
it out later. We love each other and we'll figure
it out. We're in our early twenties and we'll be exactly.
And neither of us had interest in moving back at
the time, like we just left home, like this is fun.
We're doing allso it's a fun things. Playing softball on
the national mall, this is an awesome time, right, And
(13:05):
so what happens is these things in the background, it's
in the air. You can't take it away because it
is a big life event, whether it's having a baby
or where you're going to live. And so I think
that when you feel frustrated that there's no person out
there who's going to help you arbitrate this, or that
(13:29):
there's no event that's going to say, Okay, we had
to move here, because clearly it was the only choice.
What you're left with is the really hard work of
saying we are going to have to work through a
fundamental difference between us as a couple, and it's not
going to be perfect. M h. Yes, I would say
we we tried that and and attempted that for a
(13:53):
long while. But we would talk about principles. We would
talk about what's most important for us, and it often
came back to having family around. With our kids growing up,
we wanted them to be around their grandparents, We wanted
them to be around other family members, and so we
agreed on that. It just we differed on which set.
(14:17):
So how long was that second couple of therapy couple
of months to three months? Yeah, to three months. Can
I ask you each to maybe mentioned if you can
tell me, if you can't, one thing you learned from
the other person about their feelings or needs about this
as a result of those few months of discussion, this
(14:41):
is where I played the Jeopardy theme song Forever ago.
I don't know if it was the first or the
second or what, but the level of importance that she
and I would say each of us put on being
near family. After the first eight years of our relationship,
(15:02):
we had no family around um and the fact that
all of a sudden that was like a number one
primary desire was a little bit surprising, I guess, so
that would probably be my take. I think I learned
how much you really didn't want to live in New York.
I think I thought you were trying to like it
(15:26):
and like the people and like everything, but you were
really just over it and wanted to get out of there.
I don't know if that's true. When when you guys
have had other disagreements that are fundamental in this way,
but where the stakes aren't as high, how do you
tend to negotiate them? We haven't had too many things
(15:46):
like we're pretty dominated our lives for the last few years.
Everything else is a breeze. Right. So when when you
say that that's dominated your lives. Couples have disagreements all
the time, right, And there are quite a few, by
the way, in even very strong marriages. And so when
something dominates the air in the marriage like this has,
(16:06):
sometimes it means that there are other things that maybe
you're not talking about, because sometimes people are free to
disagree on maybe the more tender things. Yeah, when we
were in New York and we would come upon disagreements,
I would find that Beth was a lot more accommodating
to what I wanted. I think that since we have
(16:27):
moved here that I have tried to be far more
willing to accommodate and to meet Beth at where she
wants to be. If we have a conflict, say like
I right now, I got the big one, and so
I will be super accommodating and help her out to
feel better and to go with what she wants to
(16:49):
make her feel better or to alleviate your guilt. Probably
this ladder, Yeah, but hopefully also the first Beth, do
you agree that he's been about in that way, that
those efforts are clear and noted to you. I think
we've gotten there and a couple of things. I think,
most recently the whole plan for the summer that took
(17:12):
longer for you to get there than I wanted you to.
But I think it was disheartening at first that it
took you longer to kind of be supportive of what
we needed to do to make this summer happen. Ryan,
What is it like for you when you know that
you've disappointed Beth? It sucks, It doesn't feel good. I
(17:33):
try every day to to not disappoint her. I try
and find small ways to exceed her expectations. This is
all even harder in the midst of a pandemic, where
you kind of just stay home all the time, making
friends in a new place, for example. But let me
just interreact for a second, because I want to go
back to the question I want to help you stay
on it, which is, what does it actually feel like
(17:55):
what happens inside of you when you disappoint Beth? Y Ah,
I feel guilty, and I feel inadequate, and I need
to find a way to make things better and help
her feel better. So it's hard to tolerate her disappointment. Yeah, Yeah,
(18:22):
What about you, Beth? What is it like for you
when you disappoint Ryan? Anxious like I'm not living up
to my part in this marriage, Like I screwed up.
I need to fix this. I want to fix us.
How can I fix us? The thing that strikes me
(18:42):
is that between your time in New York and now
you've had some time in Omaha, then you have each
had the experience of living where the other one wants
to live, having to compromise, and seeing that the other
person is trying to be as flexible as Puss to
kind of equal things out in a way. How much
(19:04):
does that make you more optimistic? Oh? Not that you
will be able to make the marriage work with this issue,
which is the same issue that you've just trained for.
I think the the potential breaking point was a year ago,
and I didn't know how we would get through that.
(19:27):
But ultimately she agreed to keep our family together, agreed
to move, and showed me a depth of love that
I feel grateful for. We've committed to being here for
a couple of years and then we'll figure it out.
Sound familiar. So I feel confident about working through this
in the future. And Beth, Yeah, I agree. I went
(19:53):
to counseling for myself up between August and when we
moved right November, and that helped me. We're through a
lot in terms of getting to acceptance of everything and
having a person I could talk to, because you can imagine,
we have very few people we can talk to about
this because people have very strong opinions and sides. This
(20:17):
is not something I can talk about with my family.
So I I like how you framed that, Like I
am no longer worried about longevity of our marriage as
I was six months to a year ago. That's true.
It's great that you guys feel so committed even in
the face of some kind of life disagreement like this.
(20:40):
I was wondering if you guys would try a little
exercise for us. Can you get a blank piece of paper.
Here's what we're gonna ask you to do. The paper
represents for each of you, not this issue, nothing to
do with geography, represents something that is very important to you.
Don't tell the other person what that thing is that
matters so much to you. And then I want you
(21:03):
each to take one side of the paper, like so
one of you put one hand on one side of
the paper. The other like, hold it, hold the paper.
There you go, okay, perfect, Okay, Now you have sixty
seconds to negotiate who gets to keep the paper? Okay,
So it represents something that matters very much to each
of you. It's a different thing for each of you,
(21:26):
and you have sixty seconds to negotiate who gets to
keep the paper? Right now, there's no movement on the
paper whatsoever. It's very typical. There's a lot of discussion,
but the paper is not moving. Well, we'll see. Sometimes
what happens is nothing happens, and then they realize they
(21:48):
have ten seconds left, and then somebody just says, okay,
you have it. Now it's spit a minute. In ten
seconds it has been and they're still talking. Let's give
him just a few more seconds. I just want to
hear what they're saying. My thing is fundamental to who
I am in some ways, like about how I got
to who I am today and represents my past, peasant,
(22:12):
present in future. Can you tell me something like that
about it's uh, something of how I want to live
my life into the future. You would probably get to Okay,
how about you? What if you had to give that up?
(22:32):
I would testing, Yeah, So what was it like for
you guys to try to negotiate there? What does it
feel like when you had that paper between you? It
was important for me to hear why this thing mattered
(22:53):
to him, But he also kind of gave an example
of why at the end of the day he could
give up this thing like you kind have offered it up,
but also said, but I wouldn't be crushed. Its critically
important to me. But I said if there were other
offsetting things, then I could probably end up because of
her description that it was inherent to her who she
(23:15):
has been, is and will be in the future. For you, Ryan,
you ultimately said this is important to me, but I
could give this up. And what Beth said was I
would be devastated to give this up. And I know
this was all theoretical because it was a blank sheet
(23:36):
of eight by ten paper and it was not where
you're living. But it does, I think, get to something
deeper that's going on, which, if it translates at all,
is that for Beth not living near her mom and
not having the kids have that grandparent relationship on some level,
(23:59):
even if she's all really going to be okay. In Omaha,
there's a part of it that feels very devastating to her,
and she's nodding and tearing up right now. Yep, yep, yeah.
And I don't know if you guys have really talked
about it like that, because you both try so hard
(24:19):
to accommodate the other and really be careful with the
other person. But I think sometimes it might be hard
to really talk about what's going on at your core
around this. And so when Beth said that, it was
so moving in that moment she said, this would be
devastating for me, would mean that you don't understand who
(24:39):
I am and Ryan and wonder what that's like to
hear that. Hearing her say this is a core part
of me and that it would be devastating to give
it up, my reaction is, Okay, how do we make
sure that that happens? And how do we make sure
that this is always true? Whatever this is, I am
(25:04):
inclined to give up something that I find extremely important
in my life to help us Beth feel comfortable with
who she is and in our marriage. Can we now
guess what the thing is? I think what's important is
just to notice that you are really talking about this
issue too. Couples always have competing needs in some way
(25:27):
or another, and so this paper exercise is really about
what do you do when you have competing needs and
how do you talk about that with each other? When
the paper is there, to lot easier to really talk
about the deeper feelings because you're not so focused on Omaha,
New York and and so I really would pay attention
(25:48):
to what has happened there, not that it's not that
that is going to give you your decision, because I
know you guys really want to come to a decision.
But what we can offer you is to understand how
to have a conversation of about that. It's different from
the five million other conversations that you've had about this
over X number of years. And I also want to
(26:09):
point out that you each basically started by naming the stakes. Brian,
he said, this is really core for me. This is
really important for me. So then betthew said, well, now
this this goes to the core of who I am.
You know, to raise the stakes, so it's even more
important for me. You at that point she had trumped
you with no, it's not just the core, it's the
(26:31):
definition of who I am. The steaks seemed higher so
you're like, Okay, if the stakes are that high, I
think it's probably a tendency you have in the geography
discussion to talk about the stakes, to talk about but
this is so important for me, This is so No,
this is even more important. No, it's so so so
important for me. And then if we had enough so
so sous before the importance, you win. And the bottom
(26:52):
line of it was that we've done this exercise with
a lot of people. Usually the paper ends up in
someone's hand. It did not. You were both holding onto it.
In other words, the time ran out. And it's a
metaphor also to what happens in geography decision that in
your discussion you get so stalled on that that then
life intervenes and makes a decision for you, whether it's
(27:16):
your dad getting sick, whether it's you finding the job.
Even if the efforts were upsided and towards whatever the
thing is, you get so looked into your stakes discussion
that you don't get to make a decision, and then
one is made for you. I think that's really fair.
(27:36):
And the thing about that is the more you kind
of kick the can down the road. You guys are
talking about this question of where are we going to
raise our kids. This could go on so long that
your kids are in college and they've already been raised
who talked about that they're being raised right now. At
a certain point, none of you are going to have
that sense of rootedness, that sense of community, that sense
(27:58):
of these are our friends, this is our community, these
are the people we raised our kids with, this was
our home. If you keep doing this, it will feel
like you're always in flux and that you don't really
belong anywhere. That resonates a lot. Yeah, and our kids
have even said our olders and even said, well, mommy,
when we move in two years and it's like we
(28:23):
live in blah blah blah, Like, oh my god, you're
six and that's not how we grew up. My mom
still lives in the house I lived since I was five,
and you're in the house that you were born in.
So it's like, so going back to that having a
baby metaphor, it's like when people can't decide should we
have a baby, sometimes by not deciding, you're actually deciding.
(28:44):
So not choosing something is an act of choosing. Mhm.
Let's say we can't decide if we want to have
a baby. Eventually the person gets too old and you
can't have a baby. So you actually made a choice,
It didn't just happen to you. And I think what's
happening here a bit is that by not deciding, you're
deciding here you are in Omaha. You can keep talking
(29:06):
about it, but you're an Omaha. Yeah. The other aspect
of that that's problematic is that this is not just
kicking the can down the road. This is keeping a
big fundamental disagreement hovering over you your entire time. And
(29:27):
this is a real stressful thing for a couple to
know that hovering over them is a huge contentious point
of disagreement they have not been able to resolve yet,
and that it's looming. And what you're saying is we're
going to have that same quote unquote breaking point you
mentioned that happened last summer. You're signing up for again
(29:48):
next year or a year and a half, whenever that
next decision gets made. And part of my concern of
where this is going with the two of you is
that because the way you discuss it is by elevating
the stakes. Just like with the paper, it became from
core issues to core identity. It was so big. That's
(30:09):
the main problem of why you're having trouble resolving this right.
The longer this goes on, the more backed into a
corner each of you gets it doesn't make you come
closer to each other. It makes you sort of back
into your positions even more rigidly. So you know, we're
(30:35):
thinking about what we've learned about you today, and we
have two part advice for you to try. The first
piece of advice is I think that we've used the
word resentable a lot, and I think that's probably come
up in your private conversations as well. And what happens
when we talk about resentment is that it comes from
(30:57):
a place of anger and you against me, and I
think what you're really feeling underneath that we get to
kind of the more tender feelings is loss and grief
that if you were to live in the place that
is not your ideal place, that you have some loss
around what that life would be like for you and
your kids if you had lived there. And when you
(31:20):
think about it in terms of loss or grief, it
taims the anger of it. What is it like to
lose this version of life? Even though you get a
different version of life that could be equally good but different.
So the first part of the exercise is for each
of you to write down to just kind of journal,
(31:40):
free form, separately about your loss and grief and everything
that you feel like you would lose, and not about
the other person's making me do this. That's where resentment is.
Grief is just for me personally. I would miss this,
okay in the scenario, and we should each think about
it in the scenario where we're living elsewhere. Yes, So
(32:03):
for for you Ryan, that would be if you were
in New York. For Beth, that would be if you
were in Omaha. Okay. And as you're doing it, sit
with it, let yourself feel whatever you're feeling. If you
start to go into that resentful angry place, go back
to the sadness and the loss. That's sometimes a harder
place to sit. And it's so much easier to externalize
(32:24):
and be angry at someone else out there or something
else out there, but to go inside and say, oh
this hurts, I'm going to miss this, I'm losing this
and grieving this. Yeah. So that's the first part of
the exercise. Yes, So here's the second part of the exercise,
and it's informed of the fact that it seemed to
me that some of the debate that you're having sounds
(32:45):
too much like it did in d C, before you
had the experience of making the compromise of being on
the other person's to seeing that it's survivable. So with
that in mind, I'd like you to do the following.
I want you to gin yourself, each of you in
five years time, living at the other person's geography. So you,
(33:07):
Ryan are living in Long Island and you, Beth are
living in Omaha, and I want you to write down
what a happy day in your life looks like in
that place, and I want you to really have a
lot of detail in it, and I want you to
truly imagine what's the happiest you could be there, because
(33:29):
I am sure you've had happy days in Omaha, Beth,
I'm sure you had happy days in New York. Right,
A real description of a truly happy day in which
it's not just about you, but what are the kids doing,
what's the other person doing, perhaps, what are you're doing
with the families? And then when you're both done, I
want you to read your description to the other person. Ryan,
(33:51):
your happy day in Long Island in five years time,
and and Beth, your happy day in Omaha in five
years time. Okay, Okay, And that's it. And then I
want you to kind of sit with it, because I
think it's important that you take away this specter from
above you of this terrible thing that will happen when
(34:13):
we have to debate this again, and remind yourselves that
it's an issue. It's not the volcanic, supersized, unsolvable therapist
felling issue that you've grown it to be at this point.
And I just want to add one thing to that exercise,
which is that because the first part of what we
suggested is about really processing your loss and grief. In
(34:38):
the second scenario, when you're writing about your happiest day
in the other location, we want you to do it
where for example, Beth, you are not thinking about your
mother in New York. So what would Omaha be like
if this part of the piece didn't exist, right that
you don't have a mother living in New York, So
(35:00):
you're just living in Omaha. Your family is there, and
you don't feel the tug of your mother. Got it, Okay?
And for ryan same thing, you're in New York but
you don't have the family and the cousins in Omaha.
You're just saying, what is my happiest day here in
Long Island. I don't feel the tug of my family
back in Omaha. What does my life look like there
(35:22):
when I'm not thinking about what I'm losing, but I'm
just living my life here. Yeah that makes sense. Good, Well,
we look forward to hearing how it goes. Okay, great,
all right, thank you so much. So I really like
this couple. I'm thinking about what they're going to do
with our advice. What do you think it's going to happen? Guy,
I think they're going to do it. I hope they
(35:44):
can do that without qualifiers, but I do think that
it will give them a little bit of peace. There
are a couple that I think really wants to be
there for one another. I also felt the love between
these people, and you could see the way that they
were sitting, the way that they were touching each other.
They were very affectionate with each other. They were very
respectful of one another, and they were very careful to
(36:08):
be gentle with the other person. And I think that
this will give them an opportunity to do the grieving
that they need to do and then also take themselves
out of that long standing position that they've been in.
I agree, because one thing that we can always tell
as therapists as soon as people sit down sometimes is
(36:29):
whether there's a really strong foundation. And I'm really curious
to hear how it went for them. Yes, me too.
This is Dear Therapists, and we'll be back after a
short break. I'm Laurie Gottli and I'm Guy Winch, and
(36:50):
this is Dear Therapists. Well, let's listen to the voicemail. Hello,
Ryan and Beth. Following up after a working through our homework,
we just want to say that it was a great
exercise getting past those combative emotions and getting to the
inner core of sadness grief was really meaningful, and going
(37:16):
through the first exercise helped me come to a deeper
place and being more vulnerable and open in our marriage. Yeah,
and I think too. We really thought about the idea
that was brought up, which was the brinksmanship we've been
using to work through this, the one upsmanship, and that's
(37:37):
not how anyone should live and it's not always about
one upsmanship. So moving past anger hurt feelings resentment and
instead talking through the reality of grief and sadness was
super important and we were really glad we did it. Yeah,
having it frain differently has helped us think of out it.
(38:01):
It was nice to write about not just the grief
and the tenderness, but the happy moments, the perfect day.
It was a good visualization exercise, and there really were
wonderful moments. We both included things we'd want to do
by ourselves and things we do as a family in
the couple, and there are things we have done or
we could see ourselves doing. So to kind of fast
(38:22):
forward five years and think through the potential good was
actually really helpful to focus on positive instead of just
the negative. So I'm glad we went in that order
and not to throw Ryan under the bus, but I
know that getting in touch with the tender core and
inner emotions has not been the easiest thing for him
(38:44):
his whole life, So I think this was a great
way to open the door on that. This has been
a really important moment for us to deepen our own
relationship and how we communicate with each other instead of
getting angry about this a lot. I was raised in
a generation where men didn't show emotions, men didn't express themselves,
(39:04):
and so I am not good at words when it
comes to this, but going through it has helped me
grow in that sense, and it's opened my eyes to
the benefits of talking and open communication. So I'm feeling
really good about being married to you, and I love you.
I feel the same way about you do. So thank you.
(39:28):
This is a really important way to to reframement focus.
So thank you, Laurie. Thank you guys. This is really
super valuable. So we appreciate you. Thank you so much. Well,
what's really interesting to me is when a couple really
gets not just what we're asking them to do, but
why you're asking them to do it, they usually are
(39:48):
able to take it to a better place and expand
it and generalize it and add things to it that
make it even more powerful because they've got the principles.
And that's always great to hear. Yeah, they're a very
thoughtful couple. I felt it was important that they were
able to look at the positives of the other person's
(40:08):
position because they were sort of having the sacrifice Olympics.
Your sacrifice is smaller than my sacrifice, right, They focus
on what they're not going to get by going to
the other person's side, and here they were able to say,
I could picture being happy, and that just opens up
the conversation as this was such a painful thing for them.
(40:30):
So the fact that it was something they could even
joke around with each other about now is a real
testament to the fact that they've actually worked something through them.
Every couple has some kind of issue where somebody feels like,
here's my position, here's your position, and there's no way
to compromise. And the exercise that they did is applicable
(40:51):
to any couple. Any couple can say, let's talk about
the loss and the grief, and let's share that with
each other, so we really understand the other person's inner
life and inner world here, and then let's also imagine
the positive parts of what would happen if I made
some movement toward the other person's position. You can use
that in any kind of disagreement that you're having in
(41:12):
a couple, so I hope that other people will apply
it to their relationships. That brings us to the end
of our show for this week. Thank you so much
for listening. You can follow us both online. I'm at
Lori Gottlieb dot com and you can follow me on
Twitter at Lori Gottlieb one or on Instagram at Lori
(41:32):
Gottlieb Underscore Author, and I'm at guy Winch dot com.
I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at guy Winch. If
you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
big or small, email us at Lorian guy at I
heart Media dot com. Our executive producers Christopher hasci Otis
were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to
(41:53):
Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Next week, amen And cares for his ex girlfriend's dog
and his current partner is concerned about what that means
for their relationship. I said, you know, it's really funny.
I have never met this person, and I I'm sorry
to use the word hate, but I hate her already
because she is in the middle of our relationship. Dear
(42:17):
Therapist is a production of I Heart Radio.
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Winch.
I wrote Emotional First Aid and I write that Dear
Guy called him for ted And this is the a therapists.
There's an old real estate adage that goes location, location, location.
This week we'll talk about how that applies in a marriage.
(00:27):
We both were very close to our families, but we
kind of thought we would figure this out later. It's
helped me realize so much that where you are located
matters for future planning. Listen in and maybe learn something
about yourself in the process. Hey, just a note before
we start. Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does
(00:49):
not constitute medical advice, and is not a substitute for
professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice
of your physician, mental health professional, or other qualified health
provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.
By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeart
Media use it in part or and full, and we
(01:10):
may edit it for length and or clarity. Hi, Lourie. Hey, guy,
So what do we have in our box this week?
We actually have a letter from a couple. Oh yes,
I know, right here there it goes. Dear Lori and Guy.
My wife and I have had ten years of a
mostly happy marriage and have two wonderful boys, ages seven
(01:30):
and four. We met in the Washington, d c. Area,
away from our families, mine in Nebraska, hers on Long Island.
Five years ago, her father received a terminal cancer diagnosis,
so in early seventeen we decided to move to Long
Island to be with him. We had nine good months
with him before he succumbed to cancer on January one.
(01:52):
After the sad year of first we discussed where to
buy a home. I preferred Omaha, where my parents live,
along with my three sisters and their five oljan Our
kids genuinely love their cousins and have so much fun
with them. My wife wanted to live near her mother
and has no desire to live in the Midwest. I
shared her concern for her mother, but I'm not okay
making our family's decision solely for her mother's benefit. After
(02:15):
two rounds of marriage counseling, we decided last summer that
I would look for a location oriented job, which I
ultimately found in Omaha. Unhappily, she agreed to move to
Omaha for a couple of years. We agreed to check
in every year and after two or three years determine
where we should settle in and raise our kids. A
big part of the agreement was that her job would
(02:36):
take her back to New York regularly and we would
take other trips there as well, But COVID nineteen has
wrecked that plan. Now, whenever we talk about big picture
geography decisions, we end up in serious arguments and make
no progress. How can we figure out where to live
long term without it being a win lose situation? That
(02:57):
is a tough one because what they want for us
is a solution. They want us to arbitrate and tell
them what to do. And I think in these situations
when couples come in, what we can do is help
them learn to talk about this differently and how it
ends up being in this you win, I lose or
(03:18):
I win you lose kind of situation for them. Yeah,
I think a right two rounds of couple of therapy good.
I'm always good with that. But what did they get
out of it? Was it really focused entirely on this dilemma?
Did they learn anything from the couple of therapy? Maybe
there are other issues there. The thing about couple of
therapy is that so many times somebody feels like they're
(03:38):
getting the therapist on their side. So did somebody feel like, Okay,
the therapist took my side and now this isn't working,
so we're going to go to another therapist. The other
thing that you mentioned was is there something else that
this argument is standing in for? So sometimes a couple
comes in and there's some kind of problem that they're
coming in with, but as therapist, we listened for them
(04:00):
music under the lyrics. The lyrics are we have this
geographic problem. We we are stuck and we can't get
out of it. But is there something else in the
marriage that they aren't talking about? And sometimes when you
deal with an issue for a long time and meanwhile
they've had kids and all these things have happened, So
sometimes you just get entrenched in your old position and
(04:20):
you haven't adapted it for new realities or for new
evolution of dynamics between the two people, like what should
have changed a little bit? I think that they're looking
at this through a lens that doesn't work for this
kind of problem where they feel like the way that
we compromise is like everything is fifty fifty. We do
half of this for you, will live here for me,
and then we'll go for these years and live here
(04:42):
for you. But sometimes fifty fifty doesn't mean that you
literally split that one issue down the middle. And so
what other areas in their marriage, if any, do they
feel that there's a disequilibrium and how have they handled
that right? Other question is for whom are they making
(05:03):
this decision? Is it for each of them? Is it
what's best for the kids? We know that she's considering
her mother and what would be best for her. He's
considering his family as well. But in the ranking, there
whose priorities, whose needs are central to them? Yeah, do
you know that exercise? The paper exercise where you give
(05:24):
a couple a piece of paper and they hold it
between them and they have to decide who's going to
get to keep the paper Basically, and so the paper
represents something that each person respectively really wants. It tells
you a lot about how they relate to each other
unrelated to the specific issue at hand. I always look
(05:45):
around for props. When I'm doing couple's work. Sometimes I'll
grab an eraser and I'll pass it to the person.
So they're going to raise something they said if they
feel it was the wrong thing to say in the
first go around. In other words, in a couple of therapy,
props are great. You're listening to dear therapist from my
heart radio. We'll be back after a quick break. This
(06:11):
is de a therapists. Thanks for listening. Should we go
talk to them? Yes, let's do that. Well, Hi, guys,
thanks so much for coming on. Hey, thank you for
having us. Thank you, You're very welcome. And I guess
my first question is you mentioned that you've had two
rounds of couples therapy. Could you tell us just a
little bit about those rounds and what you got out
(06:33):
of them? Yeah. So, um, they were both in New
York when we were working through this, and they were
focused on this issue of geography, and we talked through
a lot of different things and honestly didn't get anywhere. Well,
I don't know. The first time we went was just
(06:55):
six months after my dad passed away, and that therapist
after about four of five sessions, and you need to
stop coming here because you shouldn't make any major life
decisions within the first year of a major loss. So
we stopped and then we picked it up again. So
I think it gave us time to breathe, which was
really helpful. So in that time when you had the
time to breathe, was that kind of looming between the
(07:17):
two of you or were you able to put it
aside knowing that you would come back to it. It
was day by day, a week by week. I mean
it varied because we had you know, things would come up.
People would say to us, Oh, we wish you would
just move back to d C. This house came up
for sale, Just come back where one of his sisters
(07:37):
would send us a house for sale in Omaha and
would be like, goddamn. So he's kind of there. And also,
you know, on a day to day basis, we were good,
no problem, happy activities. But so much of life is
looking towards the future, especially with young kids. Yeah, it
makes it really hard to plan. That's oh, our kids
(07:59):
will go through elementary school together. That's a five or
six year commitment. Oh here's where you'd go. What about
if we planned this for next summer, where would we
drive or fly from right, I mean, helped me realize
so much that where you are located matters for future planning.
And so when you first got married, you moved to
d C. Right. We were in d C when we met, right, okay,
(08:23):
And so did you imagine that that would be your
community and that's where you would put down roots when
you got married? Not really. D C is so transient
if you if you know people who live there, most
people aren't from there, I think because of politics and
the hell. We had so many friends who struggled with
the exact same thing, and we both were very close
(08:44):
to our families, but we kind of thought we would
figure this out later. Before you got married. You never
explicitly had a conversation about the fact that a you
would probably leave d C and be where that might be,
or what that might look like. We talked about it
a bit. I think I've said many times I never
want to live in Omaha ever, and I said I
(09:06):
never want to live in New York, and then you
and you know, I mean, it was also in the
early dating phase it was like, oh, that sounds interesting,
And in our early to mid twenties, I felt so
far away and it was like, well, we're just going
to live through this year and that ten years from
(09:27):
now whatever. We'll figure it out at that point. So
let me ask you something you've It sounds like you've
had this discussion innumerable times, So what happens these days?
What does that discussion even look like? I think it
changed a little bit with I've always had a job
that I could take anywhere with me and Ryan was
(09:50):
suddenly unhappy in his job, and it was a bit
more of the ball is in his court and not
kind of change things I would say when it felt
like this isn't just where we want to live, this
is also career driven to Yeah, so how did it
come about that you got this job in Omaha? Are
you on now? Was that a negotiated thing? My role
(10:13):
was becoming less valuable, less fulfilling, and so I was
starting to look and we said, okay, how about if
you look for jobs and maybe that'll help push us
one way or another. So I looked for four months
um and applied for jobs in New York and in
Omaha and eventually got this offer. And was that a
(10:37):
result of the conversations in your second round of couples therapy.
So the first round of couples therapy, the therapist said,
you're still grieving, it might not be a good time
to make a big life decision. Second round, What did
those conversations look like? One of you is going to
have to make the sacrifice and have to figure out
(10:58):
how to not resent the other person. She was kind of,
this is really hard yep, When yep, there's no compelling
event here, she didn't give us a lot of hope. No,
That's when I asked earlier about whether the job in
Omaha was the result of negotiational sorts. Ryan kind of
(11:18):
and you kind of didn't, you know. Your face was
like not really, So can you actually tell me what
was behind that facetook response of yours. We said that
it would be great to have a compelling event. We
have different opinions about this, but I think I'm right. Uh,
the vigor the effort he put into searching for dabs
(11:42):
in the two locations was not the same, and it
was I think you were checking boxes for the East coast,
but you were much more proactive for Omaha because that's
what you wanted. And that kind of I felt like
when the decision came, when like you flew out for
the interview and then you got the offer. My take
on it at the time was I was kind of
(12:03):
forced into a position. We did not communicate well about
this at all. We were garbage at communicating this, like
and people have asked us, how did you make this decision,
and we said, we could tell you how not to
make this decision. So, yeah, he got the offer. He
was excited. I didn't know how to say, no, yeah,
here we are. It sounds so much like you want
(12:24):
someone or some external event to make this decision for
you instead of working through this as a couple. And
that's what makes it hard. It's almost like you knew
that there was this difference before you got married. Maybe
an equivalent would be a couple who one person says
they don't think they want kids, the other person says
(12:44):
they think they do want kids, but oh, we'll work
it out later. We love each other and we'll figure
it out. We're in our early twenties and we'll be exactly.
And neither of us had interest in moving back at
the time, like we just left home, like this is fun.
We're doing allso it's a fun things. Playing softball on
the national mall, this is an awesome time, right, And
(13:05):
so what happens is these things in the background, it's
in the air. You can't take it away because it
is a big life event, whether it's having a baby
or where you're going to live. And so I think
that when you feel frustrated that there's no person out
there who's going to help you arbitrate this, or that
(13:29):
there's no event that's going to say, Okay, we had
to move here, because clearly it was the only choice.
What you're left with is the really hard work of
saying we are going to have to work through a
fundamental difference between us as a couple, and it's not
going to be perfect. M h. Yes, I would say
we we tried that and and attempted that for a
(13:53):
long while. But we would talk about principles. We would
talk about what's most important for us, and it often
came back to having family around. With our kids growing up,
we wanted them to be around their grandparents, We wanted
them to be around other family members, and so we
agreed on that. It just we differed on which set.
(14:17):
So how long was that second couple of therapy couple
of months to three months? Yeah, to three months. Can
I ask you each to maybe mentioned if you can
tell me, if you can't, one thing you learned from
the other person about their feelings or needs about this
as a result of those few months of discussion, this
(14:41):
is where I played the Jeopardy theme song Forever ago.
I don't know if it was the first or the
second or what, but the level of importance that she
and I would say each of us put on being
near family. After the first eight years of our relationship,
(15:02):
we had no family around um and the fact that
all of a sudden that was like a number one
primary desire was a little bit surprising, I guess, so
that would probably be my take. I think I learned
how much you really didn't want to live in New York.
I think I thought you were trying to like it
(15:26):
and like the people and like everything, but you were
really just over it and wanted to get out of there.
I don't know if that's true. When when you guys
have had other disagreements that are fundamental in this way,
but where the stakes aren't as high, how do you
tend to negotiate them? We haven't had too many things
(15:46):
like we're pretty dominated our lives for the last few years.
Everything else is a breeze. Right. So when when you
say that that's dominated your lives. Couples have disagreements all
the time, right, And there are quite a few, by
the way, in even very strong marriages. And so when
something dominates the air in the marriage like this has,
(16:06):
sometimes it means that there are other things that maybe
you're not talking about, because sometimes people are free to
disagree on maybe the more tender things. Yeah, when we
were in New York and we would come upon disagreements,
I would find that Beth was a lot more accommodating
to what I wanted. I think that since we have
(16:27):
moved here that I have tried to be far more
willing to accommodate and to meet Beth at where she
wants to be. If we have a conflict, say like
I right now, I got the big one, and so
I will be super accommodating and help her out to
feel better and to go with what she wants to
(16:49):
make her feel better or to alleviate your guilt. Probably
this ladder, Yeah, but hopefully also the first Beth, do
you agree that he's been about in that way, that
those efforts are clear and noted to you. I think
we've gotten there and a couple of things. I think,
most recently the whole plan for the summer that took
(17:12):
longer for you to get there than I wanted you to.
But I think it was disheartening at first that it
took you longer to kind of be supportive of what
we needed to do to make this summer happen. Ryan,
What is it like for you when you know that
you've disappointed Beth? It sucks, It doesn't feel good. I
(17:33):
try every day to to not disappoint her. I try
and find small ways to exceed her expectations. This is
all even harder in the midst of a pandemic, where
you kind of just stay home all the time, making
friends in a new place, for example. But let me
just interreact for a second, because I want to go
back to the question I want to help you stay
on it, which is, what does it actually feel like
(17:55):
what happens inside of you when you disappoint Beth? Y Ah,
I feel guilty, and I feel inadequate, and I need
to find a way to make things better and help
her feel better. So it's hard to tolerate her disappointment. Yeah, Yeah,
(18:22):
What about you, Beth? What is it like for you
when you disappoint Ryan? Anxious like I'm not living up
to my part in this marriage, Like I screwed up.
I need to fix this. I want to fix us.
How can I fix us? The thing that strikes me
(18:42):
is that between your time in New York and now
you've had some time in Omaha, then you have each
had the experience of living where the other one wants
to live, having to compromise, and seeing that the other
person is trying to be as flexible as Puss to
kind of equal things out in a way. How much
(19:04):
does that make you more optimistic? Oh? Not that you
will be able to make the marriage work with this issue,
which is the same issue that you've just trained for.
I think the the potential breaking point was a year ago,
and I didn't know how we would get through that.
(19:27):
But ultimately she agreed to keep our family together, agreed
to move, and showed me a depth of love that
I feel grateful for. We've committed to being here for
a couple of years and then we'll figure it out.
Sound familiar. So I feel confident about working through this
in the future. And Beth, Yeah, I agree. I went
(19:53):
to counseling for myself up between August and when we
moved right November, and that helped me. We're through a
lot in terms of getting to acceptance of everything and
having a person I could talk to, because you can imagine,
we have very few people we can talk to about
this because people have very strong opinions and sides. This
(20:17):
is not something I can talk about with my family.
So I I like how you framed that, Like I
am no longer worried about longevity of our marriage as
I was six months to a year ago. That's true.
It's great that you guys feel so committed even in
the face of some kind of life disagreement like this.
(20:40):
I was wondering if you guys would try a little
exercise for us. Can you get a blank piece of paper.
Here's what we're gonna ask you to do. The paper
represents for each of you, not this issue, nothing to
do with geography, represents something that is very important to you.
Don't tell the other person what that thing is that
matters so much to you. And then I want you
(21:03):
each to take one side of the paper, like so
one of you put one hand on one side of
the paper. The other like, hold it, hold the paper.
There you go, okay, perfect, Okay, Now you have sixty
seconds to negotiate who gets to keep the paper? Okay,
So it represents something that matters very much to each
of you. It's a different thing for each of you,
(21:26):
and you have sixty seconds to negotiate who gets to
keep the paper? Right now, there's no movement on the
paper whatsoever. It's very typical. There's a lot of discussion,
but the paper is not moving. Well, we'll see. Sometimes
what happens is nothing happens, and then they realize they
(21:48):
have ten seconds left, and then somebody just says, okay,
you have it. Now it's spit a minute. In ten
seconds it has been and they're still talking. Let's give
him just a few more seconds. I just want to
hear what they're saying. My thing is fundamental to who
I am in some ways, like about how I got
to who I am today and represents my past, peasant,
(22:12):
present in future. Can you tell me something like that
about it's uh, something of how I want to live
my life into the future. You would probably get to Okay,
how about you? What if you had to give that up?
(22:32):
I would testing, Yeah, So what was it like for
you guys to try to negotiate there? What does it
feel like when you had that paper between you? It
was important for me to hear why this thing mattered
(22:53):
to him, But he also kind of gave an example
of why at the end of the day he could
give up this thing like you kind have offered it up,
but also said, but I wouldn't be crushed. Its critically
important to me. But I said if there were other
offsetting things, then I could probably end up because of
her description that it was inherent to her who she
(23:15):
has been, is and will be in the future. For you, Ryan,
you ultimately said this is important to me, but I
could give this up. And what Beth said was I
would be devastated to give this up. And I know
this was all theoretical because it was a blank sheet
(23:36):
of eight by ten paper and it was not where
you're living. But it does, I think, get to something
deeper that's going on, which, if it translates at all,
is that for Beth not living near her mom and
not having the kids have that grandparent relationship on some level,
(23:59):
even if she's all really going to be okay. In Omaha,
there's a part of it that feels very devastating to her,
and she's nodding and tearing up right now. Yep, yep, yeah.
And I don't know if you guys have really talked
about it like that, because you both try so hard
(24:19):
to accommodate the other and really be careful with the
other person. But I think sometimes it might be hard
to really talk about what's going on at your core
around this. And so when Beth said that, it was
so moving in that moment she said, this would be
devastating for me, would mean that you don't understand who
(24:39):
I am and Ryan and wonder what that's like to
hear that. Hearing her say this is a core part
of me and that it would be devastating to give
it up, my reaction is, Okay, how do we make
sure that that happens? And how do we make sure
that this is always true? Whatever this is, I am
(25:04):
inclined to give up something that I find extremely important
in my life to help us Beth feel comfortable with
who she is and in our marriage. Can we now
guess what the thing is? I think what's important is
just to notice that you are really talking about this
issue too. Couples always have competing needs in some way
(25:27):
or another, and so this paper exercise is really about
what do you do when you have competing needs and
how do you talk about that with each other? When
the paper is there, to lot easier to really talk
about the deeper feelings because you're not so focused on Omaha,
New York and and so I really would pay attention
(25:48):
to what has happened there, not that it's not that
that is going to give you your decision, because I
know you guys really want to come to a decision.
But what we can offer you is to understand how
to have a conversation of about that. It's different from
the five million other conversations that you've had about this
over X number of years. And I also want to
(26:09):
point out that you each basically started by naming the stakes. Brian,
he said, this is really core for me. This is
really important for me. So then betthew said, well, now
this this goes to the core of who I am.
You know, to raise the stakes, so it's even more
important for me. You at that point she had trumped
you with no, it's not just the core, it's the
(26:31):
definition of who I am. The steaks seemed higher so
you're like, Okay, if the stakes are that high, I
think it's probably a tendency you have in the geography
discussion to talk about the stakes, to talk about but
this is so important for me, This is so No,
this is even more important. No, it's so so so
important for me. And then if we had enough so
so sous before the importance, you win. And the bottom
(26:52):
line of it was that we've done this exercise with
a lot of people. Usually the paper ends up in
someone's hand. It did not. You were both holding onto it.
In other words, the time ran out. And it's a
metaphor also to what happens in geography decision that in
your discussion you get so stalled on that that then
life intervenes and makes a decision for you, whether it's
(27:16):
your dad getting sick, whether it's you finding the job.
Even if the efforts were upsided and towards whatever the
thing is, you get so looked into your stakes discussion
that you don't get to make a decision, and then
one is made for you. I think that's really fair.
(27:36):
And the thing about that is the more you kind
of kick the can down the road. You guys are
talking about this question of where are we going to
raise our kids. This could go on so long that
your kids are in college and they've already been raised
who talked about that they're being raised right now. At
a certain point, none of you are going to have
that sense of rootedness, that sense of community, that sense
(27:58):
of these are our friends, this is our community, these
are the people we raised our kids with, this was
our home. If you keep doing this, it will feel
like you're always in flux and that you don't really
belong anywhere. That resonates a lot. Yeah, and our kids
have even said our olders and even said, well, mommy,
when we move in two years and it's like we
(28:23):
live in blah blah blah, Like, oh my god, you're
six and that's not how we grew up. My mom
still lives in the house I lived since I was five,
and you're in the house that you were born in.
So it's like, so going back to that having a
baby metaphor, it's like when people can't decide should we
have a baby, sometimes by not deciding, you're actually deciding.
(28:44):
So not choosing something is an act of choosing. Mhm.
Let's say we can't decide if we want to have
a baby. Eventually the person gets too old and you
can't have a baby. So you actually made a choice,
It didn't just happen to you. And I think what's
happening here a bit is that by not deciding, you're
deciding here you are in Omaha. You can keep talking
(29:06):
about it, but you're an Omaha. Yeah. The other aspect
of that that's problematic is that this is not just
kicking the can down the road. This is keeping a
big fundamental disagreement hovering over you your entire time. And
(29:27):
this is a real stressful thing for a couple to
know that hovering over them is a huge contentious point
of disagreement they have not been able to resolve yet,
and that it's looming. And what you're saying is we're
going to have that same quote unquote breaking point you
mentioned that happened last summer. You're signing up for again
(29:48):
next year or a year and a half, whenever that
next decision gets made. And part of my concern of
where this is going with the two of you is
that because the way you discuss it is by elevating
the stakes. Just like with the paper, it became from
core issues to core identity. It was so big. That's
(30:09):
the main problem of why you're having trouble resolving this right.
The longer this goes on, the more backed into a
corner each of you gets it doesn't make you come
closer to each other. It makes you sort of back
into your positions even more rigidly. So you know, we're
(30:35):
thinking about what we've learned about you today, and we
have two part advice for you to try. The first
piece of advice is I think that we've used the
word resentable a lot, and I think that's probably come
up in your private conversations as well. And what happens
when we talk about resentment is that it comes from
(30:57):
a place of anger and you against me, and I
think what you're really feeling underneath that we get to
kind of the more tender feelings is loss and grief
that if you were to live in the place that
is not your ideal place, that you have some loss
around what that life would be like for you and
your kids if you had lived there. And when you
(31:20):
think about it in terms of loss or grief, it
taims the anger of it. What is it like to
lose this version of life? Even though you get a
different version of life that could be equally good but different.
So the first part of the exercise is for each
of you to write down to just kind of journal,
(31:40):
free form, separately about your loss and grief and everything
that you feel like you would lose, and not about
the other person's making me do this. That's where resentment is.
Grief is just for me personally. I would miss this,
okay in the scenario, and we should each think about
it in the scenario where we're living elsewhere. Yes, So
(32:03):
for for you Ryan, that would be if you were
in New York. For Beth, that would be if you
were in Omaha. Okay. And as you're doing it, sit
with it, let yourself feel whatever you're feeling. If you
start to go into that resentful angry place, go back
to the sadness and the loss. That's sometimes a harder
place to sit. And it's so much easier to externalize
(32:24):
and be angry at someone else out there or something
else out there, but to go inside and say, oh
this hurts, I'm going to miss this, I'm losing this
and grieving this. Yeah. So that's the first part of
the exercise. Yes, So here's the second part of the exercise,
and it's informed of the fact that it seemed to
me that some of the debate that you're having sounds
(32:45):
too much like it did in d C, before you
had the experience of making the compromise of being on
the other person's to seeing that it's survivable. So with
that in mind, I'd like you to do the following.
I want you to gin yourself, each of you in
five years time, living at the other person's geography. So you,
(33:07):
Ryan are living in Long Island and you, Beth are
living in Omaha, and I want you to write down
what a happy day in your life looks like in
that place, and I want you to really have a
lot of detail in it, and I want you to
truly imagine what's the happiest you could be there, because
(33:29):
I am sure you've had happy days in Omaha, Beth,
I'm sure you had happy days in New York. Right,
A real description of a truly happy day in which
it's not just about you, but what are the kids doing,
what's the other person doing, perhaps, what are you're doing
with the families? And then when you're both done, I
want you to read your description to the other person. Ryan,
(33:51):
your happy day in Long Island in five years time,
and and Beth, your happy day in Omaha in five
years time. Okay, Okay, And that's it. And then I
want you to kind of sit with it, because I
think it's important that you take away this specter from
above you of this terrible thing that will happen when
(34:13):
we have to debate this again, and remind yourselves that
it's an issue. It's not the volcanic, supersized, unsolvable therapist
felling issue that you've grown it to be at this point.
And I just want to add one thing to that exercise,
which is that because the first part of what we
suggested is about really processing your loss and grief. In
(34:38):
the second scenario, when you're writing about your happiest day
in the other location, we want you to do it
where for example, Beth, you are not thinking about your
mother in New York. So what would Omaha be like
if this part of the piece didn't exist, right that
you don't have a mother living in New York, So
(35:00):
you're just living in Omaha. Your family is there, and
you don't feel the tug of your mother. Got it, Okay?
And for ryan same thing, you're in New York but
you don't have the family and the cousins in Omaha.
You're just saying, what is my happiest day here in
Long Island. I don't feel the tug of my family
back in Omaha. What does my life look like there
(35:22):
when I'm not thinking about what I'm losing, but I'm
just living my life here. Yeah that makes sense. Good, Well,
we look forward to hearing how it goes. Okay, great,
all right, thank you so much. So I really like
this couple. I'm thinking about what they're going to do
with our advice. What do you think it's going to happen? Guy,
I think they're going to do it. I hope they
(35:44):
can do that without qualifiers, but I do think that
it will give them a little bit of peace. There
are a couple that I think really wants to be
there for one another. I also felt the love between
these people, and you could see the way that they
were sitting, the way that they were touching each other.
They were very affectionate with each other. They were very
respectful of one another, and they were very careful to
(36:08):
be gentle with the other person. And I think that
this will give them an opportunity to do the grieving
that they need to do and then also take themselves
out of that long standing position that they've been in.
I agree, because one thing that we can always tell
as therapists as soon as people sit down sometimes is
(36:29):
whether there's a really strong foundation. And I'm really curious
to hear how it went for them. Yes, me too.
This is Dear Therapists, and we'll be back after a
short break. I'm Laurie Gottli and I'm Guy Winch, and
(36:50):
this is Dear Therapists. Well, let's listen to the voicemail. Hello,
Ryan and Beth. Following up after a working through our homework,
we just want to say that it was a great
exercise getting past those combative emotions and getting to the
inner core of sadness grief was really meaningful, and going
(37:16):
through the first exercise helped me come to a deeper
place and being more vulnerable and open in our marriage. Yeah,
and I think too. We really thought about the idea
that was brought up, which was the brinksmanship we've been
using to work through this, the one upsmanship, and that's
(37:37):
not how anyone should live and it's not always about
one upsmanship. So moving past anger hurt feelings resentment and
instead talking through the reality of grief and sadness was
super important and we were really glad we did it. Yeah,
having it frain differently has helped us think of out it.
(38:01):
It was nice to write about not just the grief
and the tenderness, but the happy moments, the perfect day.
It was a good visualization exercise, and there really were
wonderful moments. We both included things we'd want to do
by ourselves and things we do as a family in
the couple, and there are things we have done or
we could see ourselves doing. So to kind of fast
(38:22):
forward five years and think through the potential good was
actually really helpful to focus on positive instead of just
the negative. So I'm glad we went in that order
and not to throw Ryan under the bus, but I
know that getting in touch with the tender core and
inner emotions has not been the easiest thing for him
(38:44):
his whole life, So I think this was a great
way to open the door on that. This has been
a really important moment for us to deepen our own
relationship and how we communicate with each other instead of
getting angry about this a lot. I was raised in
a generation where men didn't show emotions, men didn't express themselves,
(39:04):
and so I am not good at words when it
comes to this, but going through it has helped me
grow in that sense, and it's opened my eyes to
the benefits of talking and open communication. So I'm feeling
really good about being married to you, and I love you.
I feel the same way about you do. So thank you.
(39:28):
This is a really important way to to reframement focus.
So thank you, Laurie. Thank you guys. This is really
super valuable. So we appreciate you. Thank you so much. Well,
what's really interesting to me is when a couple really
gets not just what we're asking them to do, but
why you're asking them to do it, they usually are
(39:48):
able to take it to a better place and expand
it and generalize it and add things to it that
make it even more powerful because they've got the principles.
And that's always great to hear. Yeah, they're a very
thoughtful couple. I felt it was important that they were
able to look at the positives of the other person's
(40:08):
position because they were sort of having the sacrifice Olympics.
Your sacrifice is smaller than my sacrifice, right, They focus
on what they're not going to get by going to
the other person's side, and here they were able to say,
I could picture being happy, and that just opens up
the conversation as this was such a painful thing for them.
(40:30):
So the fact that it was something they could even
joke around with each other about now is a real
testament to the fact that they've actually worked something through them.
Every couple has some kind of issue where somebody feels like,
here's my position, here's your position, and there's no way
to compromise. And the exercise that they did is applicable
(40:51):
to any couple. Any couple can say, let's talk about
the loss and the grief, and let's share that with
each other, so we really understand the other person's inner
life and inner world here, and then let's also imagine
the positive parts of what would happen if I made
some movement toward the other person's position. You can use
that in any kind of disagreement that you're having in
(41:12):
a couple, so I hope that other people will apply
it to their relationships. That brings us to the end
of our show for this week. Thank you so much
for listening. You can follow us both online. I'm at
Lori Gottlieb dot com and you can follow me on
Twitter at Lori Gottlieb one or on Instagram at Lori
(41:32):
Gottlieb Underscore Author, and I'm at guy Winch dot com.
I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at guy Winch. If
you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
big or small, email us at Lorian guy at I
heart Media dot com. Our executive producers Christopher hasci Otis
were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to
(41:53):
Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Next week, amen And cares for his ex girlfriend's dog
and his current partner is concerned about what that means
for their relationship. I said, you know, it's really funny.
I have never met this person, and I I'm sorry
to use the word hate, but I hate her already
because she is in the middle of our relationship. Dear
(42:17):
Therapist is a production of I Heart Radio.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!