November 4, 2025 • 43 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week, a married couple with kids struggles to come to a decision on where to raise their family. Ryan wants their kids to grow up near his family in Nebraska. Beth wants them to live near her mother in New York. We show them a new way to talk through an impasse that's been causing resentment and keeping them stuck for years.
If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at LoriAndGuy@iHeartMedia.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column
for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is deo Therapists. There's an old real estate adage that
goes location, location.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Location, This week we'll talk about how that applies in
a marriage.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
We were both were very close to our families, but
we kind of thought we would figure.
Speaker 5 (02:51):
This out later.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
It's helped me realize so much that where you are
located matters for future planning.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
Speaker 7 (03:02):
Hey, just a note before we start.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
(03:24):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hi Laurie, Hey Guy, So what do
we have in our box this week?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
We actually have a letter from a couple. Ooh, yes,
I know right. Here's how it goes, Dear Laurie and Guy.
My wife and I have had ten years of a
mostly happy marriage and have two wonderful boys, ages seven
and four. We met in the Washington, DC area, away
from our families, mine in Nebraska, hers on Long Island.
Five years ago, her father received a terminal cancer diagnosis,
(04:00):
so in early twenty seventeen we decided to move to
Long Island to be with him. We had nine good
months with him before he succumbed to cancer on January one,
twenty eighteen. After the sad year of first we discussed
where to buy a home. I preferred Omaha, when my
parents live along with my three sisters and their five children.
Our kids genuinely love their cousins and have so much
(04:22):
fun with them. My wife wanted to live near her
mother and has no desire to live in them at West.
I shared her concern for her mother, but I'm not
okay making our family's decision solely for her mother's benefit.
After two rounds of marriage counseling, we decided last summer
that I would look for a location oriented job, which
I ultimately found in Omaha. Unhappily, she agreed to move
(04:44):
to Omaha for a couple of years. We agreed to
check in every year and after two or three years
determine where we should settle in and raise our kids.
A big part of the agreement was that her job
would take her back to New York regularly and we
would take other trips there as well, But COVID nineteen
has wrecked that plan. Now, whenever we talk about big
picture geography decisions, we end up in serious arguments and
(05:07):
make no progress. How can we figure out where to
live long term without it being a win lose situation?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That is a tough one because what they want from
us is a solution.
Speaker 7 (05:20):
They want us to arbitrate and tell them what to do.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And I think in these situations when couples come in,
what we can do is help them learn to talk
about this differently and how it ends up being in
this you win, I lose, or I win you lose
kind of situation for them.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yeah, I think, all right? Two rounds of couples therapy. Good,
I'm always good with that. But what did they get
out of it? Was it really focused entirely on this dilemma?
Did they learn anything from the couple's therapy? Maybe there
are the issues there.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
The thing about couple's therapy is that so many times
somebody feels like they're getting the therapist on their side.
So did somebody feel like, Okay, the therapist took my
side and now this isn't working, so we're going to
go to another therapist. The other thing that you mentioned
was is there something else that this argument is standing
in for? So sometimes a couple comes in and there's
(06:15):
some kind of problem that they're coming in with. But
as therapists, we listen for the music under the lyrics.
The lyrics are we have this geographic problem, we are
stuck and we can't get out of it. But is
there something else in the marriage that they aren't talking about?
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And sometimes when you deal with an issue for a
long time and meanwhile they've had kids and all these
things have happened, So sometimes you just get entrenched in
your old position and you haven't adapted it for new
realities or for new evolution. Of dynamics between the two people,
like what should have changed a little bit?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I think that they're looking at this through a lens
that doesn't work for this kind of problem where they
feel like the way that we compromise is like everything
is fifty to fifty. We do half of this for you,
will live here for me, and then we'll go for
these years and live here for you. But sometimes fifty
to fifty doesn't mean that you literally split that one
issue down the middle. And so what other areas in
(07:10):
their marriage, if any, do they feel that there's a
disequilibrium and how have they handled that right?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
The other question is for whom are they making this decision?
Is it for each of them? Is it what's best
for the kids? We know that she's considering her mother
and what would be best for her. He's considering his
family as well. But in the ranking, there whose priorities,
whose needs are central to them?
Speaker 5 (07:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (07:39):
Do you know that exercise?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
The paper exercise where you give a couple a piece
of paper and they hold it between them and they
have to decide who's going to get to keep the
paper basically, and so the paper represents something that each
person respectively really wants. It tells you a lot about
how they relate to each other unrelated to the specific
(08:02):
issue at hand.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I always look around for props when I'm doing couples work.
Sometimes I'll grab an eraser and I'll passe it to
the so they can erase something they said if they
feel it was the wrong thing to say in the
first go round. In other words, in couples therapy, perhaps
are great.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
You're listening to Dear Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
This is Dear Therapists. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 7 (08:33):
Should we go talk to them?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Yes, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Well, Hi, guys, thanks so much for coming on.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Hey, thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
You're very welcome. And I guess my first question is
you mentioned that you've had two rounds of couples therapy.
Could you tell us just a little bit about those
rounds and what you get out of them.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
So they were both in New York when we were
working through this, and they were focused on this issue
of geography, and we talked through a lot of different
things and honestly didn't get anywhere.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Well, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
The first time we went was just six months after
my dad passed away, and that therapist after about four
or five sessions, and you need to stop coming here
because you shouldn't make any major life decisions within a
first year of a major loss. So we stopped and
then we picked it up again. So I think it
gave us time to breathe, which was really helpful.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So in that time when you had the time to breathe,
was that kind of looming between the two of you
or were you able to put it aside knowing that
you would come back to it.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
It was day by day or a week by week.
I mean it varied because we had you know, things
would come up. People would say to us, Oh, we
wish you would just move back to DC. This house
came up for sale, just come back. Or one of
his sisters would send us a house for sale in
Omaha and we'd.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Be like, god, damn it.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
So always kind of there.
Speaker 6 (10:04):
And also, you know, on a day to day basis,
we were good, no problem, happy activities. But so much
of life is looking towards the future, especially with young kids.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, it makes it really hard to plan.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
That's oh, our kids will go through elementary school together.
That's a five or six year commitment. Oh, here's where
you'd go. What about if we plan this for next summer,
where would we drive or fly from?
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Right?
Speaker 6 (10:30):
I mean it helped me realize so much that where
you are located matters for future planning.
Speaker 7 (10:35):
And so when you first got married, you moved to DC.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Right.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
We were in DC when we met, right, Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
And so did you imagine that that would be your
community and that's where you would put down roots when
you got married?
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Not really?
Speaker 4 (10:50):
DC is so transient if you know people who live there.
Most people aren't from there, I think because of politics
and the Hill. We had so many friends who struggled
with the exact same thing, and we both were very
close to our families, but we kind of thought we
would figure this out later.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So before you got married, you never explicitly had a
conversation about the fact that a you would probably leave
DC and be where that might be or what that
might look like.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
We talked about it a bit. I think I said
many times I never want to live in Omaha.
Speaker 6 (11:23):
Ever, and I said, I'd never want to live in
New York.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
And then you got.
Speaker 6 (11:32):
And you know, I mean it was also in the
early dating phase, it was like, oh, that sounds interesting,
and in our early to mid twenties it felt so
far away and it was like, well, we're just going
to live through this year and the ten years from
now whatever.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
We'll figure it out at that point.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
So let me ask you something you've It sounds like
you've had this discussion innumerable times, So what happens these days?
What does that discussion even look like?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
I think it changed a little bit with I've always
had a job that I could take anywhere with.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Me and.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Ryan was suddenly unhappy on his job and it was
a bit more of the ball was in his court,
and that kind of changed things. I would say when
it felt like this isn't just where we want to live,
this is also career driven to Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
So how did it come about that you got this
job in Omaha? We are you on? Now? Was that
a negotiated thing?
Speaker 6 (12:31):
My role was becoming less valuable, less fulfilling, and so
I was starting to look and we said, okay, how
about if you look for jobs and maybe that'll help
push us one way or another. So I looked for
four months and applied for jobs in New York and
in Omaha and eventually got.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
This offer, and was that a result of the conversations
in your second round of couple's therapy. So the first
round of couple's therapy, the therapist said, you're still grieving.
It might not be a good time to make a
big life decision. Second round, what did the conversations look like?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
One of you is going to have to make the
sacrifice and have to figure out how to not resent
the other person. She was kind of, this is really hard. Yep, yep,
there's no compelling event here. She didn't give us a
lot of hope.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Now that's what I asked earlier about whether the job
in Omaha was the result of negotiation assorts. Ryan kind of,
mum hmm, and you kind of didn't, you know. Your
face was like, ah really, so can you actually tell
me what was behind that facial responsive yours?
Speaker 4 (13:46):
We said that it would be great to have a
compelling event. We have different opinions about this, but I
think I'm right the vigor the effort he put into
searching for jobs in the two locations was not the same,
and it was I think you were checking boxes for
the East coast, but you were much more.
Speaker 7 (14:09):
Pro active Romaha because that's what you wanted, and.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
That kind of I felt like when the decision came,
when like you flew out for the interview and then
you got the offer. My take on it at the
time was I was kind of forced.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
Into a position.
Speaker 7 (14:23):
We did not communicate well about this at all.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
We were garbage at communicating this.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Like and people have asked us, how did you make
this decision, and we said, we could tell you how
not to make this decision. So, yeah, he got the offer.
He was excited. I didn't know how to say, no, yeah,
here we are.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
It sounds so much like you want someone or some
external event to make this decision for you instead of
working through this as a couple. And that's what makes
it hard. It's almost like you knew that there was
this difference before you got married.
Speaker 7 (14:56):
Maybe an equivalent would be.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
A couple who one person says they don't think they
want kids, the other person says they think they do
want kids, but oh, we'll work it out later. We
love each other and we'll figure it out. We're in
our two early twenties and we'll see exactly.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
And neither of us had interest in moving back at
the time, Like we just left home, like, this is fun.
We're doing all sorts of fun things, playing softball on
the National Mall.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
This is an awesome time, right.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And so what happens is these things are in the background,
it's in the air. You can't take it away because
it is a big life.
Speaker 7 (15:33):
Event, whether it's having a baby or where you're going
to live.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And so I think that when you feel frustrated that
there's no person out there who's going to help you
arbitrate this, or that there's no event that's going to say, Okay,
we had to move here, because clearly it was the
only choice.
Speaker 7 (15:53):
What you're left.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
With is the really hard work of saying we are
going to have to work through a fundamental difference between
us as a couple, and it's not going to be perfect.
Speaker 6 (16:06):
Yes, I would say we tried that and attempted that
for a long while. But we would talk about principles.
We would talk about what's most important for us, and
it often came back to having family around. With our
kids growing up, we wanted them to be around their grandparents,
(16:27):
we wanted them to be around other family members, and
so we agreed on that.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
It just we differed on which set.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
So how long was that second couple's therapy A couple
of months? Two three months? Yeah, yeah, two three months.
Can I ask you each to maybe mention if you
can tell me, if you can't, one thing you learned
from the other person about their feedings or needs about
this as a result of those few months of discussion.
(16:59):
This is where I played the Jeopardy theme song.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
It feels like forever ago.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
I don't know if it was the first or the
second or what, but the level of importance that she
and I would say each of us put on being
near family. After the first eight years of our relationship,
we had no family around, and the fact that all
(17:25):
of a sudden that was like a number one primary
desire was a little bit surprising, I guess, so that
would probably be my take.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
I think I learned how much you really didn't want
to live in New York. I think I thought you
were trying to like it and like the people and
like everything, but you.
Speaker 7 (17:47):
Were really just over it and wanted to get out
of there.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
When you guys have had other disagreements that are fundamental
in this way, but where the stakes aren't just high,
how do you tend to negotiate them.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
We haven't had too many things.
Speaker 6 (18:05):
Like, we're pretty dominated in our lives for the last
few years.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Everything else is a breeze.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Right, So when you say that that's dominated your lives.
Couples have disagreements all the time, right, And there are
quite a few, by the way, in even very strong marriages.
And so when something dominates the air in the marriage
like this has, sometimes it means that there are other
things that maybe you're not talking about, because sometimes people
(18:33):
are free to disagree on maybe the more tender things.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Yeah, when we were in New York and we would
come upon disagreements, I would find that Beth was a
lot more accommodating to what I wanted. I think that
since we have moved here that I have tried to
be far more willing to accommodate and to meet Beth
where she wants to be. If we have a conflict,
(18:56):
say like I right now, I got the big one,
and so I will be super accommodating and help her
out to feel better, to go with what she wants.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
To make her feel better, or to alleviate your guilt.
Speaker 6 (19:10):
Probably this ladder, Yeah, but hopefully also the first.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Beth, do you agree that he's been flexible in that
way that those efforts are clear and noted to you.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
I think we've gotten there in a couple of things.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
I think, most recently the whole plan for the summer.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
It took longer for you to get there than I
wanted you to.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
But I think it was disheartening at first that it
took you longer to kind of be supportive of what
we needed to do to make this summer happen.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Ryan, What is it like for you when you know
that you've disappointed Beth?
Speaker 6 (19:46):
It sucks, doesn't feel good. I try every day to
not disappoint her. I try and find small ways to
I exceede our expectations. This is all even harder in
the midst of a pandemic, where you kind of just
stay home all the time, making friends in a new place,
for example.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
But let me just interapt for a second, because I
want to go back to the question I want to
help you stay on it, which is, what does it
actually feel like what happens inside of you when you
disappoint Beth.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
I feel guilty, and I feel inadequate, and I need
to find a way to make things better. And help
her feel better.
Speaker 7 (20:35):
So it's hard to tolerate her disappointment.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, what about you, Beth? What is it like for
you when you disappoint Ryan?
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Anxious like I'm not living up to my part in
this marriage, Like I screwed up.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
I need to fix this.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
I want to fix this.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
How can I fix this? The thing that strikes me
is that between your time and your yoke, and now
you've had some time in Omaha, then you have each
had the experience of living where the other one wants
to live, having to compromise, and seeing that the other
person is trying to be as flexible as possible to
(21:19):
kind of equal things out in a way. How much
does that make you more optimistic or not that you
will be able to make the marriage work with this issue,
which is the same issue that you've just trained for.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
I think the.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
Potential breaking point was a year ago, and I didn't
know how we would get through that. But ultimately she
agreed to keep our family together, agreed to move, and
showed me a depth of love that I feel grateful for.
We've committed to being here for a couple of years
(21:58):
and then we'll figure it out. Sound familiar, so I
feel confident about working through this in the future.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
And Beth, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
I went to counseling for myself up between August and
when we moved right November, and that helped me work
through a lot in terms of getting to acceptance of
everything and having a person I could talk to, because
you can imagine, we have very few people we can
talk to about this because people have very strong opinions,
(22:33):
and besides, this is not something I could talk about
with my family.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
So I.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Like how you framed that, Like I am no longer
worried about the longevity of.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
Our marriage as I was six months to a year ago.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
It's great that you guys feel so committed even in
the face of some kind of life disagreement like this.
I was wondering if you guys would try a little
exercise for us. Can you get a blank piece of paper.
Here's what we're going to ask you to do. The
paper represents for each of you. You not this issue
(23:11):
nothing to do with geography, represent something that is very
important to you. Don't tell the other person what that
thing is that matters so much to you. And then
I want you each to take one side of the paper.
So one of you put one hand on one side
of the paper, the other like, hold it.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
No, hold the paper.
Speaker 7 (23:29):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Okay, perfect, Okay, Now you have sixty seconds to negotiate
who gets to keep the paper?
Speaker 7 (23:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So it represents something that matters very much to each
of you. It's a different thing for each of you,
and you have sixty seconds to negotiate who gets to
keep the paper.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
And right now there's no movement on the paper whatsoever.
It's very typical lot of discussion, but the paper is
not moving.
Speaker 7 (24:03):
Well, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Sometimes what happens is nothing happens, and then they realize
they have ten seconds left, and then somebody just says, okay,
you have it.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Now. It's sort of a minute and ten seconds it
has been, and they're still tooking.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Let's give them just a few more seconds. I just
want to hear what they're saying.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
My thing is fundamental to who I am.
Speaker 8 (24:24):
In some ways liked about how I got to who
I am today and represents my past, present, present, in
the future. Gotcha, can you tell me something like that about.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
Uh, it's something of how I want to live my
life into the future.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
I'd probably get to giving it up.
Speaker 9 (24:47):
Okay, how about you? What if you had to get
that up, I would be yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
So what was it like for you guys to try
to negotiate there? What did it feel like when you
had that paper between you?
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It was important for me to hear why this thing
mattered to him, but he also kind of gave an
example of why at the end of the day he
could give up this thing like you kind of offered
it up, but also said, but I wouldn't be crushed.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
This is critically important to me.
Speaker 6 (25:23):
But I said, if there were other offsetting things, then
I could probably end up because of her description that
it was inherent to her who she has been, is
and will be in the future.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
For you, Ryan, you ultimately said this is important to me,
but I could give this up. And what Beth said
was I would be devastated to give this up. And
I know this was all theoretical because it was a
blank sheet of eight x ten paper and.
Speaker 7 (25:57):
It was not where you're living.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But it does I think get to something deeper that's
going on, which if it translates at all, is that
for not living near her mom and not having the
kids have that grandparent relationship on some level, even if
she's ultimately going to be okay in Omaha, there's a
(26:22):
part of it that feels very devastating to her. And
she's nodding and tearing up right now.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 7 (26:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
And I don't know if you guys have really talked
about it like that, because you both try so hard
to accommodate the other and really be careful with the
other person. But I think sometimes it might be hard
to really talk about what's going on at your core
around this. And so when Beth said that, it was
so moving in that moment, she said, this would be
(26:55):
devastating for me. It would mean that you don't understand
who I am. And Ryan, I wonder what that's like
to hear that.
Speaker 6 (27:06):
Hearing her say this is a core part of me
and that it would devastating to give it up. My
reaction is, Okay, how do we make sure that that happens,
and how do we make sure.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
That this is always true?
Speaker 6 (27:20):
Whatever this is, I am inclined to give up something
that I find extremely important in my life to help
us Beth feel comfortable with who she is and in
our marriage.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Can we now guess what the thing is, well.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I think what's important is just to notice that you
are really talking about this issue too. Couples always have
competing needs in some way or another, and so this
paper exercise is really about what do you do when
you have competing needs and how do you talk about
that with each other. When the paper is there, it's
a lot easier to really talk about the deeper feelings
(28:00):
because you're not so focused on Omaha, New York. And
so I really would pay attention to what just happened there,
not that it's not that that is going to give
you your decision, because I know you guys really want
to come to a decision. But what we can offer
you is to understand how to have a conversation about that.
That's different from the five hundred million other conversations that
(28:23):
you've had about this over X number of years.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
And I also want to point out that you each
basically started by naming the stakes, right. He said, well,
this is really core for me, This is really important
for me. So then Bethe, you said, well, now this
goes to the core of who I am. You know,
to raise the stakes, so it's even more important for me.
You At that point, she had trumped you with No,
(28:48):
it's not just the core, it's the definition of who
I am. The stakes seemed higher, so you're like, okay,
if the stakes are that, I think it's probably a
tendency you have in the geography discussion to talk about
the stakes, to talk about but this is so important
for me, this is so No, this is even more important. No,
it's so so, so important for me. And then if
we had enough so so so's before the importance you win.
(29:10):
And the bottom line of it was that we've done
this exercise with a lot of people. Usually the paper
ends up in someone's hand. It did not. You are
both holding on to it. In other words, the time
ran out. And it's a metaphor as to what happens
in geography decision that in your discussion you get so
stalled on that that then life intervenes and makes a
(29:32):
decision for you, whether it's your dad getting sick, whether
it's you finding the job, even if the efforts were
upsided and towards omaha, whatever. The thing is, you get
so locked into your stakes discussion that you don't get
to make a decision, and then one is made for you.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
I think that's really fair.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeahah, yeah, And the thing about that is the more
you kind of kick the can down the road. You
guys are talking about this question of where are we
going to raise our kids. This could go on so
long that your kids are in college and they've already
been raised.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
We've talked about that.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Right now, at a certain point, none of you are
going to have that sense of rootedness, that sense of community,
that sense of these are our friends, this is our community,
these are the people we raised our kids with, this
was our home. To keep doing this, it will feel
like you're always in flux and that you don't really
belong anywhere.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (30:29):
Yeah, that resonates a lot.
Speaker 8 (30:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (30:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
And our kids have even said, our older has uneven said, well, mommy,
when we move in two years and it's like the
next house, that house we live and blah blah blah, Like,
oh my god, you're six and that's.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Not how we grew up.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
My mom still lives in the house I lived and
since I was five, and you're in the house that
you were born in.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
So it's like the So going back to.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
That having a baby metaphor, it's like when people can't
decide should we have a baby. Sometimes by not deciding,
you're actually deciding. So not choosing something is an act
of choosing. Let's say we can't decide if we want
to have a baby. Eventually the person gets too old
and you can't have a baby. So you actually made
(31:16):
a choice. It didn't just happen to you. And I
think what's happening here a bit is that by not deciding,
you're deciding here you are in Omaha.
Speaker 7 (31:24):
You can keep talking about it, but you're an Omaha.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
The other aspect of that that's problematic is that this
is not just kicking the can down the road. This
is keeping a big, fundamental disagreement hovering over you your
entire time. And this is a real stressful thing for
a couple to know that hovering over them is a
(31:53):
huge contentious point of disagreement they have not been able
to resolve yet, and that it's looming. And what you're
saying is we're going to have that same quote unquote
breaking point you mentioned that happened last summer. You're signing
up for again next year or an year and a half,
whenever that NEXTX decision gets made. And part of my
concern of where this is going with the two of
(32:17):
you is that because the way you discuss it is
by elevating the stakes. Just like with the paper, it
came from core issues to core identity. It was so big.
That's the main problem of why you're having trouble resolving this.
Speaker 5 (32:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
The longer this goes on, the more backed into a
corner each of you gets, it doesn't.
Speaker 7 (32:36):
Make you come closer to each other.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
It makes you sort of back into your positions even
more rigidly. So you know, we're thinking about what we've
learned about you today and we have two part advice
(33:01):
for you to try. The first piece of advice is
I think that we've used the word resentful a lot,
and I think that's probably come up in your private
conversations as well. And what happens when we talk about
resentment is that it comes from a place of anger
and you against me, and I think what you're really
feeling underneath, or we get to kind of the more
(33:22):
tender feelings is loss and grief that if you were
to live in the place that is not your ideal place,
that you have some loss around what that life would
be like for you and your kids if you had
lived there and when you think about it in terms
of loss or grief, it tames the anger of it.
(33:46):
What is it like to lose this version of life
even though you get a different version of life that
could be equally good but different.
Speaker 7 (33:53):
So the first part.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Of the exercise is for each of you to write
down to just kind of journal, free form, separately about
your loss and grief and everything that you feel like
you would lose, and not about the other person's making
me do this. That's where resentment is. Grief is just
for me personally. I would miss this.
Speaker 6 (34:15):
Okay in the scenario, and we should each think about
it in a scenario where we're living elsewhere where we yes.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yes, So for you Ryan, that would be if you
were in New York. For Beth that would be if
you were in Omaha.
Speaker 7 (34:27):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
And as you're doing it, sit with it, let yourself
feel whatever you're feeling. If you start to go into
that resentful, angry place, go back to the sadness and
the loss, that's sometimes a harder place to sit. And
it's so much easier to externalize and be angry at
someone else out there or something else out there, but
to go inside and say, oh, this hurts, I'm going
(34:49):
to miss this, I'm losing this and grieving this. Yeah,
so that's the first part of the exercise.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yes, So here's the second part of the exercise. And
it's informed of the fact that it seemed to me
that some of the debate that you're having sounds too
much like it did in DC before you had the
experience of making the compromise, of being on the other
person's turf, of seeing that it's survivable. So with that
in mind, I like you to do the following. I
(35:17):
want you to imagine yourself, each of you in five
years time, living at the other person's geography. So you
Ryan are living in Long Island and you, Beth, are
living in Omaha, and I want you to write down
what a happy day in your life looks like in
(35:37):
that place. And I want you to really have a
lot of detail in it. And I want you to
truly imagine what's the happiest you could be there, Because
I am sure you've had happy days in Omaha, Beth,
I'm sure you had happy days in New York. Write
a real description of a truly happy day in which
it's not just about you, but what are the kids
(35:59):
doing what's the other person doing, perhaps what you're doing
with the families. And then when you're both done, I
want you to read your description to the other person,
Ryan your happy day in Long Island in five years
time and Beth your happy day in Omaha in five
years time. Okay, okay, And that's it. And then I
(36:21):
want you to kind of sit with it, because I
think it's important that you take away this specter from
above you of this terrible thing that will happen when
we have to debate this again, and remind yourselves that
it's an issue. It's not the volcanic, supersized, unsolvable therapist
(36:42):
felling issue that you've grown it to be at this point.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
And I just want to add one thing to that exercise,
which is that because the first part of what we
suggested is about really processing your loss and grief, in
the second scenario, when you're writing about your happiest day
in the other location, we want you to do it
where for example, Beth, you are not thinking about your
(37:08):
mother in New York. So what would Omaha be like
if this part of the piece didn't exist, right that
you don't have a mother living in New York, So
you're just living in Omaha. Your family's there, and you
don't feel the tug of your mother.
Speaker 7 (37:23):
Got it? Okay? And for Ryan, same thing.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
You're in New York, but you don't have the family
and the cousins in Omaha. You're just saying, what is
my happiest day here in Long Island. I don't feel
the tug of my family back in Omaha.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (37:39):
What does my life look like there.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
When I'm not thinking about what I'm losing but I'm
just living my life here.
Speaker 5 (37:45):
Yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Good.
Speaker 7 (37:46):
Well, we look forward to hearing how it goes.
Speaker 5 (37:48):
Okay, great, all right, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
So I really like this couple. I'm thinking about what
they're going to do with our advice.
Speaker 7 (37:57):
What do you think is going to happen?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Guy, I think they're going to do it. I hope
they can do that without qualifiers, but I do think
that it'll give them a little bit of peace. There
a couple that I think read wants to be there
for one another.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I also felt the love between these people, and you
could see the way that they were sitting, the way
that they were touching each other. They were very affectionate
with each other. They were very respectful of one another,
and they were very careful to.
Speaker 7 (38:26):
Be gentle with the other person.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
And I think that this will give them an opportunity
to do the grieving that they need to do and
then also take themselves out of that long standing position
that they've been in.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
I agree because one thing that we can always tell
as therapists as soon as people sit down sometimes is
whether there's a really strong foundation.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
And I'm really curious to hear how it went for them.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yes, me too.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
This is dear Therapists, and we'll be back after a
short break.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
I'm Lari Gottlie and I'm Guy Wench and this is deeotherapists.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Well, let's listen to the voicemail Hello by Ryan and Beth.
Speaker 6 (39:16):
Following up after working through our homework, we just want
to say that it was a great exercise getting past
those combative emotions and getting to the inner core of
sadness grief was really meaningful, and going through the first
exercise helped me come to a deeper place and being
(39:40):
more vulnerable and open in our marriage.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
Yeah, and I think too, we really thought about the
idea that was brought up, which was the brinksmanship we'd
been using to work through this the one upsmanship, and
that's not how anyone should live and it's not always
about one upsmanship. So moving past anger, hurt, feelings, resentment
(40:06):
and instead talking through three body of grief and sadness
was super important and we were really glad we did it.
Speaker 6 (40:14):
Yeah, having it rained differently has helped us think about it.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
Yeah, it was nice to write about not just the
grief and the tenderness, but the happy moments.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
The perfect day.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
It was a good visualization exercise, and there really were
wonderful moments. We both included things we'd want to do
by ourselves and things we'd do as a family and
the couple, and there were things we have done or
we could see ourselves doing. So to kind of fast
forward five years and think through the potential good was
actually really helpful to focus on positive instead of just
(40:48):
the negative. So I'm glad we went in that order
and not to throw Ryan under the bus, but I
know that getting in touch with the tender core and
inner emotions has not been the easiest thing for him
his whole life, So I think this was a great
way to open the door on that. This has been
a really important moment for us to deepen our own
(41:09):
and relationship and how we communicate with each other instead
of getting angry about.
Speaker 7 (41:15):
This a lot.
Speaker 6 (41:16):
I was raised in a generation where men didn't show emotions,
men didn't express themselves, and so I am not good
at words when it comes to this, but going through
it has helped me grow in that sense, and it's
opened my eyes to the benefits of talking and open communication.
So I'm feeling really good about being married to you,
(41:39):
and I love you.
Speaker 8 (41:40):
I feel the same way about you too.
Speaker 5 (41:45):
So thank you.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
This is a really important way to reframe and focus.
So thank you, Laurie, Thank you guy.
Speaker 6 (41:51):
This is really super valuable.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
So we appreciate you.
Speaker 6 (41:54):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
You Well, what's really interesting to me is when a
couple really gets not just what we're asking them to do,
but why you're asking them to do it. They usually
are able to take it to better place and expand
it and generalize it and add things to it that
make it even more powerful because they got the principles.
(42:16):
And that's always great to hear.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, they're a very thoughtful couple. I felt it was
important that they were able to look at the positives
of the other person's position, because they were sort of
having the sacrifice Olympics.
Speaker 7 (42:31):
Your sacrifice is smaller.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Than my sacrifice, right, They focus on what they're not
going to get by going to the other person's side,
and here they were able to say, I could picture
being happy, and that just opens up the conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
And also, this was such a painful thing for them,
So the fact that it was something they could even
joke around with each other about now is a real
testament to the fact that they've actually worked something through them.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Every couple has some kind of issue where somebody feels like,
here's my position, here's your position, and there's no way
to compromise. And the exercise that they did is applicable
to any couple. Any couple can say, let's talk about
the loss and the grief, and let's share that with
each other so we really understand the other person's inner
life and inner world here, and then let's also imagine
(43:20):
the positive parts of what would happen if I made
some movement toward the other person's position. You can use
that in any kind of disagreement that you're having in
a couple. So I hope that other people will apply
it to their relationships.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
That brings us to the end of our show for
this week. Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small, email us
at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Our executive producer is Christopher hasiotis produced and edited by
Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Next week, a man cares for his ex girlfriend's dog
and his current partner is concerned about what that means
for their relationship.
Speaker 10 (44:24):
I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never
met this person, and I'm sorry to use the word hate,
but I hate her already because she is in the
middle of our relationship.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column
for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is deo Therapists. There's an old real estate adage that
goes location, location.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Location, This week we'll talk about how that applies in
a marriage.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
We were both were very close to our families, but
we kind of thought we would figure.
Speaker 5 (02:51):
This out later.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
It's helped me realize so much that where you are
located matters for future planning.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
Speaker 7 (03:02):
Hey, just a note before we start.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
(03:24):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hi Laurie, Hey Guy, So what do
we have in our box this week?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
We actually have a letter from a couple. Ooh, yes,
I know right. Here's how it goes, Dear Laurie and Guy.
My wife and I have had ten years of a
mostly happy marriage and have two wonderful boys, ages seven
and four. We met in the Washington, DC area, away
from our families, mine in Nebraska, hers on Long Island.
Five years ago, her father received a terminal cancer diagnosis,
(04:00):
so in early twenty seventeen we decided to move to
Long Island to be with him. We had nine good
months with him before he succumbed to cancer on January one,
twenty eighteen. After the sad year of first we discussed
where to buy a home. I preferred Omaha, when my
parents live along with my three sisters and their five children.
Our kids genuinely love their cousins and have so much
(04:22):
fun with them. My wife wanted to live near her
mother and has no desire to live in them at West.
I shared her concern for her mother, but I'm not
okay making our family's decision solely for her mother's benefit.
After two rounds of marriage counseling, we decided last summer
that I would look for a location oriented job, which
I ultimately found in Omaha. Unhappily, she agreed to move
(04:44):
to Omaha for a couple of years. We agreed to
check in every year and after two or three years
determine where we should settle in and raise our kids.
A big part of the agreement was that her job
would take her back to New York regularly and we
would take other trips there as well, But COVID nineteen
has wrecked that plan. Now, whenever we talk about big
picture geography decisions, we end up in serious arguments and
(05:07):
make no progress. How can we figure out where to
live long term without it being a win lose situation?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That is a tough one because what they want from
us is a solution.
Speaker 7 (05:20):
They want us to arbitrate and tell them what to do.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And I think in these situations when couples come in,
what we can do is help them learn to talk
about this differently and how it ends up being in
this you win, I lose, or I win you lose
kind of situation for them.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yeah, I think, all right? Two rounds of couples therapy. Good,
I'm always good with that. But what did they get
out of it? Was it really focused entirely on this dilemma?
Did they learn anything from the couple's therapy? Maybe there
are the issues there.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
The thing about couple's therapy is that so many times
somebody feels like they're getting the therapist on their side.
So did somebody feel like, Okay, the therapist took my
side and now this isn't working, so we're going to
go to another therapist. The other thing that you mentioned
was is there something else that this argument is standing
in for? So sometimes a couple comes in and there's
(06:15):
some kind of problem that they're coming in with. But
as therapists, we listen for the music under the lyrics.
The lyrics are we have this geographic problem, we are
stuck and we can't get out of it. But is
there something else in the marriage that they aren't talking about?
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And sometimes when you deal with an issue for a
long time and meanwhile they've had kids and all these
things have happened, So sometimes you just get entrenched in
your old position and you haven't adapted it for new
realities or for new evolution. Of dynamics between the two people,
like what should have changed a little bit?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I think that they're looking at this through a lens
that doesn't work for this kind of problem where they
feel like the way that we compromise is like everything
is fifty to fifty. We do half of this for you,
will live here for me, and then we'll go for
these years and live here for you. But sometimes fifty
to fifty doesn't mean that you literally split that one
issue down the middle. And so what other areas in
(07:10):
their marriage, if any, do they feel that there's a
disequilibrium and how have they handled that right?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
The other question is for whom are they making this decision?
Is it for each of them? Is it what's best
for the kids? We know that she's considering her mother
and what would be best for her. He's considering his
family as well. But in the ranking, there whose priorities,
whose needs are central to them?
Speaker 5 (07:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (07:39):
Do you know that exercise?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
The paper exercise where you give a couple a piece
of paper and they hold it between them and they
have to decide who's going to get to keep the
paper basically, and so the paper represents something that each
person respectively really wants. It tells you a lot about
how they relate to each other unrelated to the specific
(08:02):
issue at hand.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I always look around for props when I'm doing couples work.
Sometimes I'll grab an eraser and I'll passe it to
the so they can erase something they said if they
feel it was the wrong thing to say in the
first go round. In other words, in couples therapy, perhaps
are great.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
You're listening to Dear Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
This is Dear Therapists. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 7 (08:33):
Should we go talk to them?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Yes, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Well, Hi, guys, thanks so much for coming on.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Hey, thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
You're very welcome. And I guess my first question is
you mentioned that you've had two rounds of couples therapy.
Could you tell us just a little bit about those
rounds and what you get out of them.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
So they were both in New York when we were
working through this, and they were focused on this issue
of geography, and we talked through a lot of different
things and honestly didn't get anywhere.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Well, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
The first time we went was just six months after
my dad passed away, and that therapist after about four
or five sessions, and you need to stop coming here
because you shouldn't make any major life decisions within a
first year of a major loss. So we stopped and
then we picked it up again. So I think it
gave us time to breathe, which was really helpful.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So in that time when you had the time to breathe,
was that kind of looming between the two of you
or were you able to put it aside knowing that
you would come back to it.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
It was day by day or a week by week.
I mean it varied because we had you know, things
would come up. People would say to us, Oh, we
wish you would just move back to DC. This house
came up for sale, just come back. Or one of
his sisters would send us a house for sale in
Omaha and we'd.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Be like, god, damn it.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
So always kind of there.
Speaker 6 (10:04):
And also, you know, on a day to day basis,
we were good, no problem, happy activities. But so much
of life is looking towards the future, especially with young kids.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, it makes it really hard to plan.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
That's oh, our kids will go through elementary school together.
That's a five or six year commitment. Oh, here's where
you'd go. What about if we plan this for next summer,
where would we drive or fly from?
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Right?
Speaker 6 (10:30):
I mean it helped me realize so much that where
you are located matters for future planning.
Speaker 7 (10:35):
And so when you first got married, you moved to DC.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Right.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
We were in DC when we met, right, Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
And so did you imagine that that would be your
community and that's where you would put down roots when
you got married?
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Not really?
Speaker 4 (10:50):
DC is so transient if you know people who live there.
Most people aren't from there, I think because of politics
and the Hill. We had so many friends who struggled
with the exact same thing, and we both were very
close to our families, but we kind of thought we
would figure this out later.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So before you got married, you never explicitly had a
conversation about the fact that a you would probably leave
DC and be where that might be or what that
might look like.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
We talked about it a bit. I think I said
many times I never want to live in Omaha.
Speaker 6 (11:23):
Ever, and I said, I'd never want to live in
New York.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
And then you got.
Speaker 6 (11:32):
And you know, I mean it was also in the
early dating phase, it was like, oh, that sounds interesting,
and in our early to mid twenties it felt so
far away and it was like, well, we're just going
to live through this year and the ten years from
now whatever.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
We'll figure it out at that point.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
So let me ask you something you've It sounds like
you've had this discussion innumerable times, So what happens these days?
What does that discussion even look like?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
I think it changed a little bit with I've always
had a job that I could take anywhere with.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Me and.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Ryan was suddenly unhappy on his job and it was
a bit more of the ball was in his court,
and that kind of changed things. I would say when
it felt like this isn't just where we want to live,
this is also career driven to Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
So how did it come about that you got this
job in Omaha? We are you on? Now? Was that
a negotiated thing?
Speaker 6 (12:31):
My role was becoming less valuable, less fulfilling, and so
I was starting to look and we said, okay, how
about if you look for jobs and maybe that'll help
push us one way or another. So I looked for
four months and applied for jobs in New York and
in Omaha and eventually got.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
This offer, and was that a result of the conversations
in your second round of couple's therapy. So the first
round of couple's therapy, the therapist said, you're still grieving.
It might not be a good time to make a
big life decision. Second round, what did the conversations look like?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
One of you is going to have to make the
sacrifice and have to figure out how to not resent
the other person. She was kind of, this is really hard. Yep, yep,
there's no compelling event here. She didn't give us a
lot of hope.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Now that's what I asked earlier about whether the job
in Omaha was the result of negotiation assorts. Ryan kind of,
mum hmm, and you kind of didn't, you know. Your
face was like, ah really, so can you actually tell
me what was behind that facial responsive yours?
Speaker 4 (13:46):
We said that it would be great to have a
compelling event. We have different opinions about this, but I
think I'm right the vigor the effort he put into
searching for jobs in the two locations was not the same,
and it was I think you were checking boxes for
the East coast, but you were much more.
Speaker 7 (14:09):
Pro active Romaha because that's what you wanted, and.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
That kind of I felt like when the decision came,
when like you flew out for the interview and then
you got the offer. My take on it at the
time was I was kind of forced.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
Into a position.
Speaker 7 (14:23):
We did not communicate well about this at all.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
We were garbage at communicating this.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Like and people have asked us, how did you make
this decision, and we said, we could tell you how
not to make this decision. So, yeah, he got the offer.
He was excited. I didn't know how to say, no, yeah,
here we are.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
It sounds so much like you want someone or some
external event to make this decision for you instead of
working through this as a couple. And that's what makes
it hard. It's almost like you knew that there was
this difference before you got married.
Speaker 7 (14:56):
Maybe an equivalent would be.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
A couple who one person says they don't think they
want kids, the other person says they think they do
want kids, but oh, we'll work it out later. We
love each other and we'll figure it out. We're in
our two early twenties and we'll see exactly.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
And neither of us had interest in moving back at
the time, Like we just left home, like, this is fun.
We're doing all sorts of fun things, playing softball on
the National Mall.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
This is an awesome time, right.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And so what happens is these things are in the background,
it's in the air. You can't take it away because
it is a big life.
Speaker 7 (15:33):
Event, whether it's having a baby or where you're going
to live.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And so I think that when you feel frustrated that
there's no person out there who's going to help you
arbitrate this, or that there's no event that's going to say, Okay,
we had to move here, because clearly it was the
only choice.
Speaker 7 (15:53):
What you're left.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
With is the really hard work of saying we are
going to have to work through a fundamental difference between
us as a couple, and it's not going to be perfect.
Speaker 6 (16:06):
Yes, I would say we tried that and attempted that
for a long while. But we would talk about principles.
We would talk about what's most important for us, and
it often came back to having family around. With our
kids growing up, we wanted them to be around their grandparents,
(16:27):
we wanted them to be around other family members, and
so we agreed on that.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
It just we differed on which set.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
So how long was that second couple's therapy A couple
of months? Two three months? Yeah, yeah, two three months.
Can I ask you each to maybe mention if you
can tell me, if you can't, one thing you learned
from the other person about their feedings or needs about
this as a result of those few months of discussion.
(16:59):
This is where I played the Jeopardy theme song.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
It feels like forever ago.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
I don't know if it was the first or the
second or what, but the level of importance that she
and I would say each of us put on being
near family. After the first eight years of our relationship,
we had no family around, and the fact that all
(17:25):
of a sudden that was like a number one primary
desire was a little bit surprising, I guess, so that
would probably be my take.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
I think I learned how much you really didn't want
to live in New York. I think I thought you
were trying to like it and like the people and
like everything, but you.
Speaker 7 (17:47):
Were really just over it and wanted to get out
of there.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
When you guys have had other disagreements that are fundamental
in this way, but where the stakes aren't just high,
how do you tend to negotiate them.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
We haven't had too many things.
Speaker 6 (18:05):
Like, we're pretty dominated in our lives for the last
few years.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Everything else is a breeze.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Right, So when you say that that's dominated your lives.
Couples have disagreements all the time, right, And there are
quite a few, by the way, in even very strong marriages.
And so when something dominates the air in the marriage
like this has, sometimes it means that there are other
things that maybe you're not talking about, because sometimes people
(18:33):
are free to disagree on maybe the more tender things.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Yeah, when we were in New York and we would
come upon disagreements, I would find that Beth was a
lot more accommodating to what I wanted. I think that
since we have moved here that I have tried to
be far more willing to accommodate and to meet Beth
where she wants to be. If we have a conflict,
(18:56):
say like I right now, I got the big one,
and so I will be super accommodating and help her
out to feel better, to go with what she wants.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
To make her feel better, or to alleviate your guilt.
Speaker 6 (19:10):
Probably this ladder, Yeah, but hopefully also the first.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Beth, do you agree that he's been flexible in that
way that those efforts are clear and noted to you.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
I think we've gotten there in a couple of things.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
I think, most recently the whole plan for the summer.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
It took longer for you to get there than I
wanted you to.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
But I think it was disheartening at first that it
took you longer to kind of be supportive of what
we needed to do to make this summer happen.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Ryan, What is it like for you when you know
that you've disappointed Beth?
Speaker 6 (19:46):
It sucks, doesn't feel good. I try every day to
not disappoint her. I try and find small ways to
I exceede our expectations. This is all even harder in
the midst of a pandemic, where you kind of just
stay home all the time, making friends in a new place,
for example.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
But let me just interapt for a second, because I
want to go back to the question I want to
help you stay on it, which is, what does it
actually feel like what happens inside of you when you
disappoint Beth.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
I feel guilty, and I feel inadequate, and I need
to find a way to make things better. And help
her feel better.
Speaker 7 (20:35):
So it's hard to tolerate her disappointment.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, what about you, Beth? What is it like for
you when you disappoint Ryan?
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Anxious like I'm not living up to my part in
this marriage, Like I screwed up.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
I need to fix this.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
I want to fix this.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
How can I fix this? The thing that strikes me
is that between your time and your yoke, and now
you've had some time in Omaha, then you have each
had the experience of living where the other one wants
to live, having to compromise, and seeing that the other
person is trying to be as flexible as possible to
(21:19):
kind of equal things out in a way. How much
does that make you more optimistic or not that you
will be able to make the marriage work with this issue,
which is the same issue that you've just trained for.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
I think the.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
Potential breaking point was a year ago, and I didn't
know how we would get through that. But ultimately she
agreed to keep our family together, agreed to move, and
showed me a depth of love that I feel grateful for.
We've committed to being here for a couple of years
(21:58):
and then we'll figure it out. Sound familiar, so I
feel confident about working through this in the future.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
And Beth, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
I went to counseling for myself up between August and
when we moved right November, and that helped me work
through a lot in terms of getting to acceptance of
everything and having a person I could talk to, because
you can imagine, we have very few people we can
talk to about this because people have very strong opinions,
(22:33):
and besides, this is not something I could talk about
with my family.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
So I.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Like how you framed that, Like I am no longer
worried about the longevity of.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
Our marriage as I was six months to a year ago.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
It's great that you guys feel so committed even in
the face of some kind of life disagreement like this.
I was wondering if you guys would try a little
exercise for us. Can you get a blank piece of paper.
Here's what we're going to ask you to do. The
paper represents for each of you. You not this issue
(23:11):
nothing to do with geography, represent something that is very
important to you. Don't tell the other person what that
thing is that matters so much to you. And then
I want you each to take one side of the paper.
So one of you put one hand on one side
of the paper, the other like, hold it.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
No, hold the paper.
Speaker 7 (23:29):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Okay, perfect, Okay, Now you have sixty seconds to negotiate
who gets to keep the paper?
Speaker 7 (23:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So it represents something that matters very much to each
of you. It's a different thing for each of you,
and you have sixty seconds to negotiate who gets to
keep the paper.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
And right now there's no movement on the paper whatsoever.
It's very typical lot of discussion, but the paper is
not moving.
Speaker 7 (24:03):
Well, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Sometimes what happens is nothing happens, and then they realize
they have ten seconds left, and then somebody just says, okay,
you have it.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Now. It's sort of a minute and ten seconds it
has been, and they're still tooking.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Let's give them just a few more seconds. I just
want to hear what they're saying.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
My thing is fundamental to who I am.
Speaker 8 (24:24):
In some ways liked about how I got to who
I am today and represents my past, present, present, in
the future. Gotcha, can you tell me something like that about.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
Uh, it's something of how I want to live my
life into the future.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
I'd probably get to giving it up.
Speaker 9 (24:47):
Okay, how about you? What if you had to get
that up, I would be yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
So what was it like for you guys to try
to negotiate there? What did it feel like when you
had that paper between you?
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It was important for me to hear why this thing
mattered to him, but he also kind of gave an
example of why at the end of the day he
could give up this thing like you kind of offered
it up, but also said, but I wouldn't be crushed.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
This is critically important to me.
Speaker 6 (25:23):
But I said, if there were other offsetting things, then
I could probably end up because of her description that
it was inherent to her who she has been, is
and will be in the future.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
For you, Ryan, you ultimately said this is important to me,
but I could give this up. And what Beth said
was I would be devastated to give this up. And
I know this was all theoretical because it was a
blank sheet of eight x ten paper and.
Speaker 7 (25:57):
It was not where you're living.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But it does I think get to something deeper that's
going on, which if it translates at all, is that
for not living near her mom and not having the
kids have that grandparent relationship on some level, even if
she's ultimately going to be okay in Omaha, there's a
(26:22):
part of it that feels very devastating to her. And
she's nodding and tearing up right now.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 7 (26:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
And I don't know if you guys have really talked
about it like that, because you both try so hard
to accommodate the other and really be careful with the
other person. But I think sometimes it might be hard
to really talk about what's going on at your core
around this. And so when Beth said that, it was
so moving in that moment, she said, this would be
(26:55):
devastating for me. It would mean that you don't understand
who I am. And Ryan, I wonder what that's like
to hear that.
Speaker 6 (27:06):
Hearing her say this is a core part of me
and that it would devastating to give it up. My
reaction is, Okay, how do we make sure that that happens,
and how do we make sure.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
That this is always true?
Speaker 6 (27:20):
Whatever this is, I am inclined to give up something
that I find extremely important in my life to help
us Beth feel comfortable with who she is and in
our marriage.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Can we now guess what the thing is, well.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I think what's important is just to notice that you
are really talking about this issue too. Couples always have
competing needs in some way or another, and so this
paper exercise is really about what do you do when
you have competing needs and how do you talk about
that with each other. When the paper is there, it's
a lot easier to really talk about the deeper feelings
(28:00):
because you're not so focused on Omaha, New York. And
so I really would pay attention to what just happened there,
not that it's not that that is going to give
you your decision, because I know you guys really want
to come to a decision. But what we can offer
you is to understand how to have a conversation about that.
That's different from the five hundred million other conversations that
(28:23):
you've had about this over X number of years.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
And I also want to point out that you each
basically started by naming the stakes, right. He said, well,
this is really core for me, This is really important
for me. So then Bethe, you said, well, now this
goes to the core of who I am. You know,
to raise the stakes, so it's even more important for me.
You At that point, she had trumped you with No,
(28:48):
it's not just the core, it's the definition of who
I am. The stakes seemed higher, so you're like, okay,
if the stakes are that, I think it's probably a
tendency you have in the geography discussion to talk about
the stakes, to talk about but this is so important
for me, this is so No, this is even more important. No,
it's so so, so important for me. And then if
we had enough so so so's before the importance you win.
(29:10):
And the bottom line of it was that we've done
this exercise with a lot of people. Usually the paper
ends up in someone's hand. It did not. You are
both holding on to it. In other words, the time
ran out. And it's a metaphor as to what happens
in geography decision that in your discussion you get so
stalled on that that then life intervenes and makes a
(29:32):
decision for you, whether it's your dad getting sick, whether
it's you finding the job, even if the efforts were
upsided and towards omaha, whatever. The thing is, you get
so locked into your stakes discussion that you don't get
to make a decision, and then one is made for you.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
I think that's really fair.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeahah, yeah, And the thing about that is the more
you kind of kick the can down the road. You
guys are talking about this question of where are we
going to raise our kids. This could go on so
long that your kids are in college and they've already
been raised.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
We've talked about that.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Right now, at a certain point, none of you are
going to have that sense of rootedness, that sense of community,
that sense of these are our friends, this is our community,
these are the people we raised our kids with, this
was our home. To keep doing this, it will feel
like you're always in flux and that you don't really
belong anywhere.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (30:29):
Yeah, that resonates a lot.
Speaker 8 (30:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (30:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
And our kids have even said, our older has uneven said, well, mommy,
when we move in two years and it's like the
next house, that house we live and blah blah blah, Like,
oh my god, you're six and that's.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Not how we grew up.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
My mom still lives in the house I lived and
since I was five, and you're in the house that
you were born in.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
So it's like the So going back to.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
That having a baby metaphor, it's like when people can't
decide should we have a baby. Sometimes by not deciding,
you're actually deciding. So not choosing something is an act
of choosing. Let's say we can't decide if we want
to have a baby. Eventually the person gets too old
and you can't have a baby. So you actually made
(31:16):
a choice. It didn't just happen to you. And I
think what's happening here a bit is that by not deciding,
you're deciding here you are in Omaha.
Speaker 7 (31:24):
You can keep talking about it, but you're an Omaha.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
The other aspect of that that's problematic is that this
is not just kicking the can down the road. This
is keeping a big, fundamental disagreement hovering over you your
entire time. And this is a real stressful thing for
a couple to know that hovering over them is a
(31:53):
huge contentious point of disagreement they have not been able
to resolve yet, and that it's looming. And what you're
saying is we're going to have that same quote unquote
breaking point you mentioned that happened last summer. You're signing
up for again next year or an year and a half,
whenever that NEXTX decision gets made. And part of my
concern of where this is going with the two of
(32:17):
you is that because the way you discuss it is
by elevating the stakes. Just like with the paper, it
came from core issues to core identity. It was so big.
That's the main problem of why you're having trouble resolving this.
Speaker 5 (32:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
The longer this goes on, the more backed into a
corner each of you gets, it doesn't.
Speaker 7 (32:36):
Make you come closer to each other.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
It makes you sort of back into your positions even
more rigidly. So you know, we're thinking about what we've
learned about you today and we have two part advice
(33:01):
for you to try. The first piece of advice is
I think that we've used the word resentful a lot,
and I think that's probably come up in your private
conversations as well. And what happens when we talk about
resentment is that it comes from a place of anger
and you against me, and I think what you're really
feeling underneath, or we get to kind of the more
(33:22):
tender feelings is loss and grief that if you were
to live in the place that is not your ideal place,
that you have some loss around what that life would
be like for you and your kids if you had
lived there and when you think about it in terms
of loss or grief, it tames the anger of it.
(33:46):
What is it like to lose this version of life
even though you get a different version of life that
could be equally good but different.
Speaker 7 (33:53):
So the first part.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Of the exercise is for each of you to write
down to just kind of journal, free form, separately about
your loss and grief and everything that you feel like
you would lose, and not about the other person's making
me do this. That's where resentment is. Grief is just
for me personally. I would miss this.
Speaker 6 (34:15):
Okay in the scenario, and we should each think about
it in a scenario where we're living elsewhere where we yes.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yes, So for you Ryan, that would be if you
were in New York. For Beth that would be if
you were in Omaha.
Speaker 7 (34:27):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
And as you're doing it, sit with it, let yourself
feel whatever you're feeling. If you start to go into
that resentful, angry place, go back to the sadness and
the loss, that's sometimes a harder place to sit. And
it's so much easier to externalize and be angry at
someone else out there or something else out there, but
to go inside and say, oh, this hurts, I'm going
(34:49):
to miss this, I'm losing this and grieving this. Yeah,
so that's the first part of the exercise.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yes, So here's the second part of the exercise. And
it's informed of the fact that it seemed to me
that some of the debate that you're having sounds too
much like it did in DC before you had the
experience of making the compromise, of being on the other
person's turf, of seeing that it's survivable. So with that
in mind, I like you to do the following. I
(35:17):
want you to imagine yourself, each of you in five
years time, living at the other person's geography. So you
Ryan are living in Long Island and you, Beth, are
living in Omaha, and I want you to write down
what a happy day in your life looks like in
(35:37):
that place. And I want you to really have a
lot of detail in it. And I want you to
truly imagine what's the happiest you could be there, Because
I am sure you've had happy days in Omaha, Beth,
I'm sure you had happy days in New York. Write
a real description of a truly happy day in which
it's not just about you, but what are the kids
(35:59):
doing what's the other person doing, perhaps what you're doing
with the families. And then when you're both done, I
want you to read your description to the other person,
Ryan your happy day in Long Island in five years
time and Beth your happy day in Omaha in five
years time. Okay, okay, And that's it. And then I
(36:21):
want you to kind of sit with it, because I
think it's important that you take away this specter from
above you of this terrible thing that will happen when
we have to debate this again, and remind yourselves that
it's an issue. It's not the volcanic, supersized, unsolvable therapist
(36:42):
felling issue that you've grown it to be at this point.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
And I just want to add one thing to that exercise,
which is that because the first part of what we
suggested is about really processing your loss and grief, in
the second scenario, when you're writing about your happiest day
in the other location, we want you to do it
where for example, Beth, you are not thinking about your
(37:08):
mother in New York. So what would Omaha be like
if this part of the piece didn't exist, right that
you don't have a mother living in New York, So
you're just living in Omaha. Your family's there, and you
don't feel the tug of your mother.
Speaker 7 (37:23):
Got it? Okay? And for Ryan, same thing.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
You're in New York, but you don't have the family
and the cousins in Omaha. You're just saying, what is
my happiest day here in Long Island. I don't feel
the tug of my family back in Omaha.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (37:39):
What does my life look like there.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
When I'm not thinking about what I'm losing but I'm
just living my life here.
Speaker 5 (37:45):
Yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Good.
Speaker 7 (37:46):
Well, we look forward to hearing how it goes.
Speaker 5 (37:48):
Okay, great, all right, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
So I really like this couple. I'm thinking about what
they're going to do with our advice.
Speaker 7 (37:57):
What do you think is going to happen?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Guy, I think they're going to do it. I hope
they can do that without qualifiers, but I do think
that it'll give them a little bit of peace. There
a couple that I think read wants to be there
for one another.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I also felt the love between these people, and you
could see the way that they were sitting, the way
that they were touching each other. They were very affectionate
with each other. They were very respectful of one another,
and they were very careful to.
Speaker 7 (38:26):
Be gentle with the other person.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
And I think that this will give them an opportunity
to do the grieving that they need to do and
then also take themselves out of that long standing position
that they've been in.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
I agree because one thing that we can always tell
as therapists as soon as people sit down sometimes is
whether there's a really strong foundation.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
And I'm really curious to hear how it went for them.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yes, me too.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
This is dear Therapists, and we'll be back after a
short break.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
I'm Lari Gottlie and I'm Guy Wench and this is deeotherapists.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Well, let's listen to the voicemail Hello by Ryan and Beth.
Speaker 6 (39:16):
Following up after working through our homework, we just want
to say that it was a great exercise getting past
those combative emotions and getting to the inner core of
sadness grief was really meaningful, and going through the first
exercise helped me come to a deeper place and being
(39:40):
more vulnerable and open in our marriage.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
Yeah, and I think too, we really thought about the
idea that was brought up, which was the brinksmanship we'd
been using to work through this the one upsmanship, and
that's not how anyone should live and it's not always
about one upsmanship. So moving past anger, hurt, feelings, resentment
(40:06):
and instead talking through three body of grief and sadness
was super important and we were really glad we did it.
Speaker 6 (40:14):
Yeah, having it rained differently has helped us think about it.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
Yeah, it was nice to write about not just the
grief and the tenderness, but the happy moments.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
The perfect day.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
It was a good visualization exercise, and there really were
wonderful moments. We both included things we'd want to do
by ourselves and things we'd do as a family and
the couple, and there were things we have done or
we could see ourselves doing. So to kind of fast
forward five years and think through the potential good was
actually really helpful to focus on positive instead of just
(40:48):
the negative. So I'm glad we went in that order
and not to throw Ryan under the bus, but I
know that getting in touch with the tender core and
inner emotions has not been the easiest thing for him
his whole life, So I think this was a great
way to open the door on that. This has been
a really important moment for us to deepen our own
(41:09):
and relationship and how we communicate with each other instead
of getting angry about.
Speaker 7 (41:15):
This a lot.
Speaker 6 (41:16):
I was raised in a generation where men didn't show emotions,
men didn't express themselves, and so I am not good
at words when it comes to this, but going through
it has helped me grow in that sense, and it's
opened my eyes to the benefits of talking and open communication.
So I'm feeling really good about being married to you,
(41:39):
and I love you.
Speaker 8 (41:40):
I feel the same way about you too.
Speaker 5 (41:45):
So thank you.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
This is a really important way to reframe and focus.
So thank you, Laurie, Thank you guy.
Speaker 6 (41:51):
This is really super valuable.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
So we appreciate you.
Speaker 6 (41:54):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
You Well, what's really interesting to me is when a
couple really gets not just what we're asking them to do,
but why you're asking them to do it. They usually
are able to take it to better place and expand
it and generalize it and add things to it that
make it even more powerful because they got the principles.
(42:16):
And that's always great to hear.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, they're a very thoughtful couple. I felt it was
important that they were able to look at the positives
of the other person's position, because they were sort of
having the sacrifice Olympics.
Speaker 7 (42:31):
Your sacrifice is smaller.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Than my sacrifice, right, They focus on what they're not
going to get by going to the other person's side,
and here they were able to say, I could picture
being happy, and that just opens up the conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
And also, this was such a painful thing for them,
So the fact that it was something they could even
joke around with each other about now is a real
testament to the fact that they've actually worked something through them.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Every couple has some kind of issue where somebody feels like,
here's my position, here's your position, and there's no way
to compromise. And the exercise that they did is applicable
to any couple. Any couple can say, let's talk about
the loss and the grief, and let's share that with
each other so we really understand the other person's inner
life and inner world here, and then let's also imagine
(43:20):
the positive parts of what would happen if I made
some movement toward the other person's position. You can use
that in any kind of disagreement that you're having in
a couple. So I hope that other people will apply
it to their relationships.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
That brings us to the end of our show for
this week. Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small, email us
at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Our executive producer is Christopher hasiotis produced and edited by
Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Next week, a man cares for his ex girlfriend's dog
and his current partner is concerned about what that means
for their relationship.
Speaker 10 (44:24):
I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never
met this person, and I'm sorry to use the word hate,
but I hate her already because she is in the
middle of our relationship.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
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