November 18, 2025 • 46 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week, we explore what happens when a DNA test reveals a shocking surprise. Kristine was adopted and had always hoped to find her biological parents—and in her early twenties, she did. But there was a secret that she—and her biological father—didn't know about. We help her to navigate the fallout as she re-examines her definition of family.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column
for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write a Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is Deo Therapists. This week, an adopted woman forms a
close relationship with her biological father, but then a DNA
test reveals a shocking surprise.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Growing up, it was super important to me to have
the answers as to who my pological parents were, so
it was pretty devastating when the person who was supposed
to be my father wasn't my father and I had
another father there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process. Hey,
just a note before we start. Year therapist is for
informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, and is
not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
(03:22):
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter. You
are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part or
in full, and we may edit it for length and
or clarity. Hi Laurie, Hey guy.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Well, we have an interesting letter this week. Let's get
to it, okay, Dear therapists. I'm an adult adoptee who
reunited with both my birth parents twenty two years ago.
My birth father, whom i'll call Alan, put in his
name at the agency and facilitated the reunion, and he
tracked down my birth mother to give her the chance
to be part of it. All started off well with everyone.
(04:03):
About a year after the reunion, though, my birth mother
dropped out of the permanent picture, though she did make
a few reappearances over the years, the last one ending
badly as she said she was willing to have an
occasional relationship with only me, but not my kids, who
would have wanted a relationship with her. I wanted more
than to be some sort of secret daughter. Meanwhile, Allan
(04:23):
and his family have shared a very close and loving
relationship with me and my family in the twenty two
years since our reunion, and it's been wonderful. However, after
recently doing DNA testing, I found out that Allan is
not actually my birth father. Needless to say, that was
pretty shocking news. Allan told me that it doesn't change
anything for him, but I'm heartbroken for him and his family.
(04:46):
Imagine all they've been through. For me, it doesn't change
the fact that he's been an amazing dad and grandpa
for twenty two years. But as I moved forward with
trying to find out the truth of who my real
father is, I feel like we needed to address it.
I reached down to Alan's wife, who has been like
a stepmom to me, for advice, only to discover that
she does not believe in DNA tests. In her mind,
(05:06):
that I walked identically to Uncle Terry was proof that
I was my dad's child. It had been upsetting for me,
and obviously the reality that the man I thought was
my father was lied to all those years ago is
huge for him and his family to deal with. I
suffer a lot of guilt thinking I'm a reminder of
massive pain to them. I also contacted my birth mother,
(05:27):
informed her that they did at EONA test and that
Allan is not in fact my birth father. Her response
to me was, this isn't Mamma, Mia, don't contact me again.
I decided to write to my birth mother's other siblings.
I wanted them to know that I had wanted a
relationship with them all those years. The response was positive,
and now I am trying to navigate a relationship with them,
despite the fact that my birth mother wrote to me
(05:49):
after and told me never to contact any of her
family again. When I told my no longer birth dad
about this, he said, while he wished me the best
with it, he never wanted to hear any of their
names again. My adoptive mum is also not supportive of
my pursuing a relationship with them, so it's a bit tough.
And finally, a third cousin I met with an ancestry
(06:10):
reached out and has unraveled who my biological father is.
All I know right now is that he was the
same age as my birth mother at the time of
my birth sixteen and living on the same military base.
I find all of this a bit tricky to navigate.
Being adopted. I already know that family isn't just about blood,
But isn't honesty important? Or do I just leave that
(06:30):
be and carry on as we always have?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Thanks Christine, Wow, that is such a painful and complicated situation.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Painful and complicated indeed, And there's so many players and
so many of them are hurting, but especially Christine. It
sounds like because it's hard to make sense of one adoption.
It's really hard to make sense when you find out
that the person you thought was your biological dad actually wasn't.
Now you don't know who is. Now you have to
(07:05):
start searching all over again. Everyone's hurt, she's not getting support.
It's a really tricky one.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, there's so much layered in here with the secrets
and the lies. Carl Jung called secret psychic poison, and
I think that's what's happening here too, is that there
was this secret that Alan didn't know about and that
Christine didn't know about. And it's not clear whether her
biological mother lied or whether she didn't know who the
(07:35):
father was. So that's an important piece of information.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
What I'm hambering from a lot of people is that
DNA testing is so widely available now it's making a
lot of people have to really think through what the
definition of family is and how we define family, and
especially in this age where we are going to find
out that a lot of who we thought were family
(08:00):
are not biological family?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, absolutely, she said, being adopted. I know that family
is more than blood, but I also think family is
about openness and trust and safety and what she's missing
right now. And I'm not sure which pieces of her
family she's going to get this from, but I think
she really needs all three of those components for her
(08:23):
to feel like she has family that feels good to her.
You're listening to Dear Therapists from my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a quick break.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Well, let's go talk to her. So, Hi, Christine, welcome.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Great to have you on our show.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
It's a very complicated situation that you described, and it
sounds like there's been so many twists and turns, and
all of them so intense and emotional. And I guess
given so much has happened, as anything else happened since
he wrote you letter to us.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Well, I have now connected to my biological father and
I've spoken with him on the phone now and I'm
connected to his family.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Oh wow, yes, So tell us about that a little bit.
How that happened and what that was like.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
So I guess the individual who connected me to the
family through ancestry. He told the mother like my biological grandmother,
that I existed, and he put me in touch with her.
Then she connected me to my apological father and we
had a couple of emails and then decided that it
(09:48):
was good to talk on the phone and chat that way.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Was he surprised to learn that he had a daughter?
Speaker 5 (09:59):
He was surprised.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
So what happened is I sent my bological grandmother a
picture of my birth mother from back then and her name,
just to see if she recognized or knew, and she didn't,
but she showed him the picture and right away he
knew who it was and said yes. We were dating
for a few months and then we broke up and
(10:23):
we knew that she went away but didn't know what
had happened. And as she came back without a baby,
no one knew that she had a baby.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So what was it like for him to hear from you.
What was his reaction.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
I think he's pretty shock and still taking it in.
I can't imagine what it would be like to suddenly
find out that you have a child that's a complete shock,
which is very different from the man I was told
is my father for the twenty whatever years before he
put his name in on the registry, had thought he
(10:59):
had a child and felt the loss of that child,
and so that was like his impetus to try to
find me.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
What was it like for you, because the this has
been such a long quest, So now you actually know
who both your biological parents are. What was it like
to actually get that answered for you?
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Well, it's a huge relief.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I mean, growing up was super important to me to
have the answers as to who my bological parents were,
and so it was pretty devastating in the period. Then
the person who was supposed to be my father wasn't
my father, and I had another father there somewhere, So
on the one hand, it was a big relief. But
then I have to say when I called him, when
(11:41):
I was making that first call, it took me a
really long time to do it. It was very overwhelmed
by emotion. So we're even talking about it now of cool,
little hard. It was also kind of acknowledging that Alan,
the man who was my father for the past twenty
(12:02):
two years, acknowledging that he's being kind of replaced by
someone else. It is again, I want to have a
relationship with him, and he'll always be a dad. But
it was really solidifying, like this is real. This other
person is my father and not Alan.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Do you feel that sense of almost disloyalty. Yes, yeah,
can you say more about that.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
It does feel like a bit of a betrayal because
Alan has been my father for the past twenty two
years and a really great father, and so a lot
of people when this all came to light, were kind
of like, well, do you even need to find someone else?
You know, you have a great person in your life,
so isn't that enough.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
But it goes back.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
To the first time when I wanted to find out
who my bolitical parents were. It wasn't any slight against
my adoptive family. It was just this needing to know.
But I still feel guilt. I mean, it's been there.
I guess from the beginning that there's this feeling of
guilt for any kind of pursuit of your biological family
(13:14):
when you're adopted.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, you know, this is so common, I think where
there's this whole question of if you want to understand
more about where you came from, which is a basic
human need? What is my identity? Where did I come from?
Some people feel like, well, wait a minute, are we
not enough? We love you, You're our family, and I
(13:36):
think this whole situation brings up this question of what
are these basic human needs about not having secrets and transparency?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Could you tell us a little bit about how you
were raised.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
My mom and dad were a couple who couldn't have
kids because my mom had a hysterectomy, so they adopted
my brother, and then they adopted me, and we were
reasonable family, average, like you know, growing up happy. My
adoptive dad did die the year after I had.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
The reunion with my other father and biological mother.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
How old were you at the time.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
I was twenty two.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
I'd had the reunion with my family and my adoptive
dad died, and so it was a pretty big year.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
But I felt like, in a way, I was losing
one father, and.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Then the universe gave me another father, which was really wonderful.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
How was the fact that you and your brother were
both adopted talked about in your family?
Speaker 4 (14:43):
So certainly the adoption was a really strong point of contention.
I was given a book and that was about the dialogue,
you know. Otherwise it was like this is supposed to
be secret, like you know, we don't talk about it.
Speaker 5 (14:57):
This is your family.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
And so I had a hard time processing it when
I was young that I had parents that would give
me away. You know, I had a lot of questions
and nowhere to go with them. And then I knew
when seem as I turned eighteen and legally I could
search myself, I would, and my adoptive family was very
upset with me. Even my brother, who is also adopted,
(15:20):
was not supportive at all of me searching.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Who is supporting you right now in what's going on?
Speaker 4 (15:28):
My husband is very supportive. I have a friend, she's
a social worker, and so she was very helpful and
giving insight and information and my initial search. I'm very
grateful for her and other friends that I have, and
you know, even my kids. It's been a bit eye
opening for them, but they are very supportive and understanding.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
I can just see how emotionalness is for you. And
it's not just about the discovery of Okay, now I
finally connected. It's all these relationships that are being tested,
which are the ones that are most troubling to you?
Not the most important relationships, But which are the relationships
in which the tension is most urgent for you to repair?
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I guess with Alan, the you know, the man who
has been my father the past twenty two years, just
making sure that that's okay, because he's been such a
wonderful addition to my life and to my children's life,
and you know, I really don't want this to damage
that connection that we have.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
You were twenty two when Alan found you. What was
the reaction of your family since they had not been
supportive of your searching?
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Well, initially they were very kind of trepidacious, aloof like
not involved. But over the years it certainly like it
has improved that you know. Now it has just been
like a big extension of family, Like to the point
that my mom, my adoptive mom, when I told her
(17:04):
I was going to try to find out now who
my biological father was, reaction was like, oh, poor Alan,
you can't do that.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
To Alan, she related to that because that's how it
felt to her when you wanted to search. Yeah, what's
going to happen if you find these other people and
you have a relationship with them. She was projecting that
onto how Alan might feel.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Right, Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
So what is the current situation with Alan right now?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I'm trying to find a balance of you know, sharing.
It's a big life event, right, and so I feel
like I should be telling my parents about what's happening,
but I worry like that it's hurtful if I'm like
I talked to my about to go father and it
was really wonderful. Like, is that going to be difficult?
(17:58):
And I know that Alan has said that it is
hard for him, but he wants to know and be
kept in the loop. So we're trying to navigate it.
Just I worry every time I sent an update that
it's going to be really upsetting.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
What I think is running through all of these stories
is this fear of being abandoned by people even though
you've done nothing wrong. So you were wondering when you
were little, why did my appearance give me up? Right?
And then later you found Alan, and then you got
(18:40):
this information that he wasn't really your biological father, and
I think you're worried about are they going to feel
the same about me? And then there became this issue
of and now I found my biological father, and with
every revelation, there's this question of who's going to stay
with me through this, who's going to still love me?
(19:01):
And what is going to happen to these relationships? And
that puts you in a very precarious position emotionally.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yes, what's really compelling here is that there's this parallel
process happening on the other side. In other words, part
of why your mom and Alan perhaps are having a
hard time because there might also be wondering if she's
still going to love us if she finds these people.
(19:32):
And I think that's what's so difficult here, because it
sounds like a lot of you are in pain and
a lot of you are questioning things, And with each
new revelation, it's about, well, what does that do to
our relationship? What does that do to the love she
has for us? What does it do to the love
they have for you? And it sounds like there's a
lot of reassurance that's necessary all around. How much of
(19:56):
that goes on that reassurance from you to them, from
them to you? Is that something that's being expressed enough to.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
A degree, But I guess maybe there could be more
on whose pot I feel like I'm.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
The initiator a lot of the times, like I have
to reach out to people more than people reach out
to me to say, you know, we still love you
and it's going to be fine.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Have you seen a change in your relationship with Alan
and his family since these revelations?
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Yes? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Can you describe what's different?
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Before it was just easy, but now it's like, I
feel like I have to take a deep breath. I've
lost that sense of ease that I had before, you know,
and then this worry that wasn't there. It's hard to describe.
This doesn't feel like the connection is the same.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Right, there's this question of who am I to you
and who are you to me? Now? Yes, can we
find out a little bit more about your biological mother
and what that experience has been like for you? It
sounds incredibly painful where you've reached out to her and
at first she was somewhat receptive and then she sort
(21:17):
of closed the door, and she did it with not
a lot of sensitivity. So can you talk more about
what that was like for you?
Speaker 5 (21:27):
In a word, it has been awful.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
I think it's every adoptee's worst nightmare to be rejected again,
and with her it having been multiple times now and
the time before when I reached out to her to
find out if she would give.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Me any information about my poetical father.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
We've been rebuilding our relationship and things seemed to be
going well, and you know, my kids were excited because
in their mind it was like, oh, you know, a
new part of our family.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
This is going to be wonderful.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
And when I told her that, she just said, like, no, sorry,
like your kids have no part in my family.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
I don't want to meet them, and that was it.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Does she have children that she had subsequent to you?
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Yes, she had a son after me, but a year
after she had me.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Oh, still very young.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Yes that she kept.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yes, And did you have any contact with him?
Speaker 4 (22:25):
I did in the initial time when Alan had put
his name in and let them know he was going
to be finding me. Her and her family were interested,
and I met her family, I met her son, and
things were good. But then when things started to go bad,
I could see that as a son that he could
see that his mum was hurting, and so he was
(22:48):
pretty angry by the end about the reunion and felt
like his life had been disrupted and everything.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
So do you know why she was hurting.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
I think she was finding the reunion process hard. I
think that with her and Alan that there were a
lot of unresolved feeling that they were dealing with.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
There's kind of a whole side story of their own.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Relationship and trying to figure out what happened and where
they were, So there was conflict there at the time.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
What was her relationship with Alan that made her either
believe or decide to say that Alan was the biological father.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
She was fourteen when they started going out, and she
was sixteen when she had me, So they had a
long term relationship. He had given her a promise ring
or they were supposed to be together forever. But then
she moved away and she told him she wanted to
see other people, and one of those other people happened
(23:57):
to be a voluntial father. But I guess at some
point they must have gotten back together, you know, after
she founished she was pregnant, and so Alan then was
led to believe that he was the father and they
were going to run away together to have me. And
the day before they were supposed to leave, she told
(24:18):
him that she had told her parents and that she
was going to be sent away and that was it.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
That must have been such a difficult memory for her.
You're a teenager and you're scared, and you don't know
what to do, and you make this decision to tell
your parents because you need to. And I don't know
how they reacted, but it was a secret. They sent
(24:46):
her away, and that must have been something that was
in some ways shameful in her family. Oh yeah, And
yet when you approached the rest of the family, they
were much more welcoming. It didn't seem like they had
whatever feelings might have been there a long time ago. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Right, all the expoionens that you've now had with all
of this, how do you define what family is right now?
Speaker 5 (25:20):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (25:21):
I guess at this point, like my best answer is
that it's the people who are there for you, the
people who come into your life and stay there through
thick and thin, and who give love and receive love.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
I think that's a lovely definition.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
So for you, that would be who right now, my kids, obviously,
my husband, my mom, Alan, and his wife Susan.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Given the definition you gave us of what family means
to you, what are your hopes for what your relationship
with your biological dad and his mom will be like
going forward.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
Oh well, I have to confess.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
I'm hopeful that they will become family too such an
early stage of things that I don't know. His mom
is very warm and receptive, but with him I haven't
quite gotten a handle. And so I would say that
there is that feeling of worrying about rejection that has
(26:27):
me kind of nervous at this stage.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I want to go back just once work this question
of what happened with your biological mom. So initially she
was potentially interested in having some kind of contact with you,
and then she didn't want the kind of contact that
you wanted, which was to bring your whole family into
(26:51):
this relationship. And then she got very closed off. And
that comment sticks with me that you wrote your letter
about this isn't Mama Mia right, there's your story, and
then there's a whole story that happened, which was your
mom boyfriend, and then she said I need to see
(27:12):
other people, and she had a different boyfriend, and then
the other boyfriend maybe didn't know about that boyfriend, we
don't know, but there was a whole drama going on
with these three people. There was a whole story going on.
But the fact is that the shadow of that story
lives on in what's happening right now for your mom
and for everybody. In fact, I wonder how you've made
(27:35):
sense of your mom's reaction and have you been able
to take in it all the fact that other people
in the family on that side are interested in welcoming you.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
I don't know how to make sense really, especially as
a mother myself. It's so hard to figure out why
she wouldn't want to be open to a relationship and
why she's so closed off. I have a really hard
time understanding why it's such a hard no for her,
(28:09):
With her family being receptive and everything, it just really
doesn't make sense. And they can't shed any insight themselves.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
They actually don't know, or they can't because they feel
they need to be loyal to her and they don't
want to share that information with you.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
I guess that could be part of it.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
I think with one of her siblings, like she's more
open and.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Would say if she had insight.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
I get the impression that my podular mother is a
very emotionally closed off person.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Did you ever know your mom's parents, because it was
their decision to send her away to have the baby
do you know more about them or were they open
to meeting you?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
Yeah, so I did meet them and they were very open.
I reread all of the initial letters and cards and
everything I got from everyone recently and going through all
of this, and it was very much like we've been
waiting to do this, We've always thought about you and everything.
And even after things got kind of kaibash by my
(29:21):
violetical mother and everyone else stopped having contact with me,
there was a period of time where I still would
get letters from her mom and she would send magazine
subscriptions for my kids. But then it dwindled off, and
I'm not sure why what happened on their side of things,
you know. One of the painful things in all of
(29:43):
this was when I found the obituary for my grandmother,
and it was really hard to deal with because I
guess I naively always thought that there would be some
kind of reconciliation or some kind of resolution, or like
no one would be gone permanently before there would be
that opportunity.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
And also by not being notified when your biological grandmother dies,
there's almost like a there about who is who isn't
part of the family that you don't even get to know,
and you had been in touch and she had been
sending these subscriptions to your kids. That must have been
really difficult.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
But it definitely felt like a huge rejection because I
would have thought, at least if someone was sick or dying,
that I would have been given the opportunity to know
at the very least. And then reading the obituary, which
then had you know, all the family listed, and my
name wasn't there, and my kids' names weren't there, So
(30:46):
that was a very hurtful thing to experience.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I have a question about the relationship between Alan and
your mom. So when Alan discovered you and then got
in touch with your mom, had they been in touch
at all over the years.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
After she came back from having me.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
They tried to stay together for a period of time,
and then a month or so after they just found
like the emotion of it was too much. So I
think it was a very painful and emotional breakup for
them in light of the circumstances.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
And then that was it, and they just never saw
each other.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
And so I didn't seen each other or talk to
each other or had any kind of insight into each
other for twenty two years and then to be reuniting
with the child that they had given up, and everything
opened a lot of old booms and.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
A lot of people, you know, looking from the outside in.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Said to me after things kind of went downhill that
it seemed like she was more interested in pursuing a
relationship with him than.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
She was with me, even though he was married.
Speaker 5 (31:58):
Even though he was married.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
So many hurt feelings all around, are you able to
focus on yours?
Speaker 5 (32:07):
And a person who worries about other people's feelings? And
I think that goes back.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
To adoption trauma and always having a worry about being
rejected and people abandoning me. I don't want to self
sabotage on the one hand, and I also don't want
to not consider my own feelings because I have a
tendency to make sure other people are okay and at
(32:32):
my own expense.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Which of your relationships is the one about which you
feel most concerned, because I think you mentioned Allan before.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Yes, and I think that is the most important one
to me because their life could have been totally different
if my budgel mother had been honest way back when
you know, it's just been so many years of heartache
for them until they met me, and then it's been
really great, and now it's like this big bomb and
this big betrayal, and so I feel, I guess at
(33:04):
times like it would be hard for them to even
look at me.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I want to reframe that, because yes, there was this
time for twenty two years. That's a long time to
say I have this child out there and I'm longing
to connect with that child. That is a lot of
pain for Alan to have dealt with. But then there's
the other piece, which is that for all of these
(33:30):
years you have had this beautiful relationship with him and
his family. You say that when they look at you,
they see this reminder of trauma and pain, But I
think that when they look at you, they see love
and that they love you so much that they are
afraid of losing you. So I think that what you're
(33:52):
seeing in them isn't Oh, you know, I want to
avoid her because she's this reminder of all of this pain.
But I am so attached to this person, and I'm
afraid that our relationship is going to be changed in
a way that is going to be very sad.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
And I think it also is related to what you
said that you have this tendency to worry for other
people's feelings more than your around, and it's possible that
you're assuming something that might not be true. You're assuming
that they're in pain because you're a reminder, but they
might be in pain because they see you in pain,
(34:32):
and the pain that you might see in their eyes
the pain they see in yours. This ping pong of
pain going back and forth, but not in any way
related to any kind of regret or you said if
their lives would have been very different, if this all
wouldn't have happened, it would have it would have been
less rich all around. That seems pretty clear, given the
(34:54):
strength of the relationship over so many years. And so
I want to caution you not to assume that you
know what the pain is that they're feeling, and that
you're the cause of it.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
And it can also be many things at once, like
with your mother. It might have been very painful for
your mother to have had a hysterectomy and know that
she wasn't going to have a child in the way
that she had imagined, and that when you came into
the family, and your brother came into the family, and
you became those children, and you fulfilled that dream for her,
(35:29):
And so there's that feeling of I got to have
my kids, and I love my kids so much, and
now that they've found these other families, are they going
to leave me? You all have the same fear about
We all love each other, and there are so many
different parts of this family, and every single person is
(35:53):
asking am I going to get left out? Meaning Alan,
his family, your mother, and maybe even whatever develops with
your biological dad and his mom, and then there's your
biological mother. You know, right now the door is really closed,
but I don't know that that's the end of the story,
especially because you're in touch with part of her family
(36:15):
as well. Maybe we can give you some tools for
how you might talk to say your mom and Alan
about what your experience is, and also allowing some room
(36:38):
for you to reassure them a little bit, which isn't
so much worrying about their feelings, but just to tell
them about the depth of your feeling for them, so
that people aren't wondering, there's not this unspoken question lingering
in the air.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
And I think Christine, one way to do that is
to share with them that one thing that you've been
thinking about with all of this is what defines family.
And your definition was very specific. It was that the
people who are there for you but consistently, who remain
(37:14):
there for you through the good and the bad, through
the ups and the downs. And I think if you
share that and say that your conclusion from all of
this was that by that definition, they are and always
will be your family, and you will always be their family.
(37:36):
And to share that realization with them that after all
of these years, all of these searching, the ups and
the downs, and the revelations, that that's what you do know.
And I think it would be really powerful for you
to share that with them and to see how you
feel in sharing that with them.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
I think that's good. I think that would be helpful.
It helps me to think of it that way, like that, this,
like you know, is my family and these are the
reasons why. And so I think for me to tell
tell them that, and you know, for us to discuss that,
I think would probably be good for everyone and the
aftermath of everything that's happened in all of this, so
(38:21):
I think that that would be a good place to
start a conversation about family and what we mean to
each other.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
And it's also a good conversation to have with your
husband and your kids because they're a part of this too. Yes,
but to share with them this is where you've landed
at this moment in time, and I think it will
help your kids with whatever confusion they might have around
all of the events, and it will help your husband
(38:53):
to understand more about you and your experience.
Speaker 5 (38:56):
Yes, that's a good point too.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
One thing to keep in mind, Christine, based on what
you've described, it's possible that allan will your mom might
hear what you have to say and probably really appreciate
what you have to say, but feel that it might
be difficult for them to enter into deeper discussion of it.
(39:20):
If that's the case, it would be great if you
could do it on a video call, because you might
see the reaction in their eyes more than in the
words they're able to convey to you. If you say
that to them and you see them being very moved
and very touched but unable to go further into the
(39:44):
discussion at that time, that that might be sufficient. Not forever, obviously,
but for that moment.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
I think that's a really good point because so much
being back and forth by email or by text, you
really miss out on that human element of it that
is in people's expressions and body language and everything.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah, and they need to see you too, because they
need to see how you feel, and you're conveying that sentiment,
you know. I think that would be useful.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
And as we're talking about seeing them and having them
see you, I think there's a metaphor here, which is
that for a very long time you weren't seen. You
had all these questions, and you said it was such
a relief when you've got this information to finally both
see what the story was and to be seen. And
(40:36):
so just to keep that in your back pocket, that
idea of how important it is to finally be seen
and making these calls to them is a way of
literally and figuratively being seen.
Speaker 4 (40:52):
Yes, yeah, I think that that's important too. I really
appreciated the insight. I think something big for me is
just thinking of the context of sorry emotional of everyone
being scared and the fear that everyone has, and I
think that was a really important frame to put things in.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
You know, the scariest thing for most humans is the
idea that the love they have will be taken away yes.
And I think that every single person here, including your
biological mom, because there's something there, whether it's her son
(41:35):
who is angry or we don't really know. I think
every single person is afraid of losing love. And your
message is wait a minute, this is all about gaining love.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
Yes, Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 4 (41:52):
The other good point was not assuming what other people
are thinking, and you're thinking the worst with Alan in particular,
they might be thinking something totally positive, like not wanting
to lose me. So I think that's an important shift
for me to keep in mind too, is navigate this.
Speaker 5 (42:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
So look, thank you so much for talking with us.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Okay, well, thank you, Thank you so much, Christine. We
look forward to hearing back from you.
Speaker 5 (42:19):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
So I'm sitting here, I'm feeling this heaviness, this pain
of so many people hurting on the one hand, and
so many people who found love on the other. I'm
sure she's going to go ahead and do it. The
people she's going to say it too, will. I hope
they'll be touched by it. I hope they'll be reassured
by it. I hope they'll be able to verbalize something
(42:48):
in return. They might feel a little overwhelmed. But if
she doesn't get that response in the actual call, I'm
pretty sure she'll get it thereafter in some way.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I think with these kinds of situations, they're evolving, they're
very live, and it takes time to really figure out
what it all means when you get new information like
this on this scale. So I think this is a
good beginning to not having this guessing game going on
(43:24):
between I wonder what they're feeling. I wonder how she
feels about me. But for her to just say I
want you to know how much I love you, I
want you to know this is how I think about family,
and I think that's a great place for her to start.
So I'm really interested to hear how it felt for
her to be able to do that. This is Dear Therapist,
(43:48):
and we'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
So we heard back from Christine.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Oh wow, I really hope that went well. Let's give
it a listen.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
Hi, Lari, and I'm just circling back on our conversation
and my homework and wanted to update you. I had
my face to face conversations with most of my family
members now and it has been really healing. So much
has been skirted around or perhaps lost in translations of messages, emails,
and calls till now. It was really good to get
down to the meat of our feelings for a change
and directly address Elphin that's been in the room since
(44:30):
getting the shocking DNA results. I think they appreciate hearing
my definition of family. What was really powerful was the
acknowledgment of our mutual fear of loss. Thank you for
surfacing that for all of us. I've really mold over
that fear of loss of love aspect in my head
since talking to you, and has really really helped me
see things through a new lens that makes me feel
(44:50):
less insecure on a bigger scale. I also think it
helps me see my fellow travelers in life in a
gentler light, knowing we all share that common fear. Thank
you for helping me to get the confidence to navigate
this tumultuous family situation and a new lens to view
things through.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I love that she got right to the heart of it,
which is they were all struggling with the same thing
with I'm worried that I'm going to lose these people
that I love, and that they were receptive to hearing
it when she framed it in that way.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
And I think what's really powerful was that we spoke
just to her. But this is what happens in therapy
as well. When somebody gains a certain insight that's related
to their family, it really has a ripple effect and
it can impact an entire system, and in this case,
a really complex system. And so they all had that
(45:49):
awakening in a way.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Right if just one person opens up a conversation that
nobody knew how to broach, what a relief it is
for everybody to have, as she said, the elephant in
the room out in the open. And now people could
say me too, I feel that way too, or I'm
so glad you brought this up because because I was
feeling this and I didn't know how to talk about it,
(46:13):
and I was scared. And I think that scared is
important because there was a lot of fear on all sides.
Everybody was just so afraid of losing something. And once
you can voice that fear, then you can say, oh,
wait a minute, maybe that fear is unfounded. We actually
don't want anything to happen.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
To the bonds that we have right Once you remove
the fear, what you're left with is the love that
brings us to the end of our show for this week,
thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show,
please take a moment to rate and review it.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us big email us at Lorianguy
at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis were produced and edited by
Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Next week, a teacher talks to us about the challenges
of being physically separated from her students.
Speaker 6 (47:30):
I have students who, when it comes up at the
end of the hour, will say, I can't believe this
is almost over. This is the time during the week
that I don't feel lonely and that's just heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column
for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write a Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is Deo Therapists. This week, an adopted woman forms a
close relationship with her biological father, but then a DNA
test reveals a shocking surprise.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Growing up, it was super important to me to have
the answers as to who my pological parents were, so
it was pretty devastating when the person who was supposed
to be my father wasn't my father and I had
another father there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process. Hey,
just a note before we start. Year therapist is for
informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, and is
not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
(03:22):
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter. You
are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part or
in full, and we may edit it for length and
or clarity. Hi Laurie, Hey guy.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Well, we have an interesting letter this week. Let's get
to it, okay, Dear therapists. I'm an adult adoptee who
reunited with both my birth parents twenty two years ago.
My birth father, whom i'll call Alan, put in his
name at the agency and facilitated the reunion, and he
tracked down my birth mother to give her the chance
to be part of it. All started off well with everyone.
(04:03):
About a year after the reunion, though, my birth mother
dropped out of the permanent picture, though she did make
a few reappearances over the years, the last one ending
badly as she said she was willing to have an
occasional relationship with only me, but not my kids, who
would have wanted a relationship with her. I wanted more
than to be some sort of secret daughter. Meanwhile, Allan
(04:23):
and his family have shared a very close and loving
relationship with me and my family in the twenty two
years since our reunion, and it's been wonderful. However, after
recently doing DNA testing, I found out that Allan is
not actually my birth father. Needless to say, that was
pretty shocking news. Allan told me that it doesn't change
anything for him, but I'm heartbroken for him and his family.
(04:46):
Imagine all they've been through. For me, it doesn't change
the fact that he's been an amazing dad and grandpa
for twenty two years. But as I moved forward with
trying to find out the truth of who my real
father is, I feel like we needed to address it.
I reached down to Alan's wife, who has been like
a stepmom to me, for advice, only to discover that
she does not believe in DNA tests. In her mind,
(05:06):
that I walked identically to Uncle Terry was proof that
I was my dad's child. It had been upsetting for me,
and obviously the reality that the man I thought was
my father was lied to all those years ago is
huge for him and his family to deal with. I
suffer a lot of guilt thinking I'm a reminder of
massive pain to them. I also contacted my birth mother,
(05:27):
informed her that they did at EONA test and that
Allan is not in fact my birth father. Her response
to me was, this isn't Mamma, Mia, don't contact me again.
I decided to write to my birth mother's other siblings.
I wanted them to know that I had wanted a
relationship with them all those years. The response was positive,
and now I am trying to navigate a relationship with them,
despite the fact that my birth mother wrote to me
(05:49):
after and told me never to contact any of her
family again. When I told my no longer birth dad
about this, he said, while he wished me the best
with it, he never wanted to hear any of their
names again. My adoptive mum is also not supportive of
my pursuing a relationship with them, so it's a bit tough.
And finally, a third cousin I met with an ancestry
(06:10):
reached out and has unraveled who my biological father is.
All I know right now is that he was the
same age as my birth mother at the time of
my birth sixteen and living on the same military base.
I find all of this a bit tricky to navigate.
Being adopted. I already know that family isn't just about blood,
But isn't honesty important? Or do I just leave that
(06:30):
be and carry on as we always have?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Thanks Christine, Wow, that is such a painful and complicated situation.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Painful and complicated indeed, And there's so many players and
so many of them are hurting, but especially Christine. It
sounds like because it's hard to make sense of one adoption.
It's really hard to make sense when you find out
that the person you thought was your biological dad actually wasn't.
Now you don't know who is. Now you have to
(07:05):
start searching all over again. Everyone's hurt, she's not getting support.
It's a really tricky one.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, there's so much layered in here with the secrets
and the lies. Carl Jung called secret psychic poison, and
I think that's what's happening here too, is that there
was this secret that Alan didn't know about and that
Christine didn't know about. And it's not clear whether her
biological mother lied or whether she didn't know who the
(07:35):
father was. So that's an important piece of information.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
What I'm hambering from a lot of people is that
DNA testing is so widely available now it's making a
lot of people have to really think through what the
definition of family is and how we define family, and
especially in this age where we are going to find
out that a lot of who we thought were family
(08:00):
are not biological family?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, absolutely, she said, being adopted. I know that family
is more than blood, but I also think family is
about openness and trust and safety and what she's missing
right now. And I'm not sure which pieces of her
family she's going to get this from, but I think
she really needs all three of those components for her
(08:23):
to feel like she has family that feels good to her.
You're listening to Dear Therapists from my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a quick break.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Well, let's go talk to her. So, Hi, Christine, welcome.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Great to have you on our show.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
It's a very complicated situation that you described, and it
sounds like there's been so many twists and turns, and
all of them so intense and emotional. And I guess
given so much has happened, as anything else happened since
he wrote you letter to us.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Well, I have now connected to my biological father and
I've spoken with him on the phone now and I'm
connected to his family.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Oh wow, yes, So tell us about that a little bit.
How that happened and what that was like.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
So I guess the individual who connected me to the
family through ancestry. He told the mother like my biological grandmother,
that I existed, and he put me in touch with her.
Then she connected me to my apological father and we
had a couple of emails and then decided that it
(09:48):
was good to talk on the phone and chat that way.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Was he surprised to learn that he had a daughter?
Speaker 5 (09:59):
He was surprised.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
So what happened is I sent my bological grandmother a
picture of my birth mother from back then and her name,
just to see if she recognized or knew, and she didn't,
but she showed him the picture and right away he
knew who it was and said yes. We were dating
for a few months and then we broke up and
(10:23):
we knew that she went away but didn't know what
had happened. And as she came back without a baby,
no one knew that she had a baby.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So what was it like for him to hear from you.
What was his reaction.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
I think he's pretty shock and still taking it in.
I can't imagine what it would be like to suddenly
find out that you have a child that's a complete shock,
which is very different from the man I was told
is my father for the twenty whatever years before he
put his name in on the registry, had thought he
(10:59):
had a child and felt the loss of that child,
and so that was like his impetus to try to
find me.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
What was it like for you, because the this has
been such a long quest, So now you actually know
who both your biological parents are. What was it like
to actually get that answered for you?
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Well, it's a huge relief.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I mean, growing up was super important to me to
have the answers as to who my bological parents were,
and so it was pretty devastating in the period. Then
the person who was supposed to be my father wasn't
my father, and I had another father there somewhere, So
on the one hand, it was a big relief. But
then I have to say when I called him, when
(11:41):
I was making that first call, it took me a
really long time to do it. It was very overwhelmed
by emotion. So we're even talking about it now of cool,
little hard. It was also kind of acknowledging that Alan,
the man who was my father for the past twenty
(12:02):
two years, acknowledging that he's being kind of replaced by
someone else. It is again, I want to have a
relationship with him, and he'll always be a dad. But
it was really solidifying, like this is real. This other
person is my father and not Alan.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Do you feel that sense of almost disloyalty. Yes, yeah,
can you say more about that.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
It does feel like a bit of a betrayal because
Alan has been my father for the past twenty two
years and a really great father, and so a lot
of people when this all came to light, were kind
of like, well, do you even need to find someone else?
You know, you have a great person in your life,
so isn't that enough.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
But it goes back.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
To the first time when I wanted to find out
who my bolitical parents were. It wasn't any slight against
my adoptive family. It was just this needing to know.
But I still feel guilt. I mean, it's been there.
I guess from the beginning that there's this feeling of
guilt for any kind of pursuit of your biological family
(13:14):
when you're adopted.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, you know, this is so common, I think where
there's this whole question of if you want to understand
more about where you came from, which is a basic
human need? What is my identity? Where did I come from?
Some people feel like, well, wait a minute, are we
not enough? We love you, You're our family, and I
(13:36):
think this whole situation brings up this question of what
are these basic human needs about not having secrets and transparency?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Could you tell us a little bit about how you
were raised.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
My mom and dad were a couple who couldn't have
kids because my mom had a hysterectomy, so they adopted
my brother, and then they adopted me, and we were
reasonable family, average, like you know, growing up happy. My
adoptive dad did die the year after I had.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
The reunion with my other father and biological mother.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
How old were you at the time.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
I was twenty two.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
I'd had the reunion with my family and my adoptive
dad died, and so it was a pretty big year.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
But I felt like, in a way, I was losing
one father, and.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Then the universe gave me another father, which was really wonderful.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
How was the fact that you and your brother were
both adopted talked about in your family?
Speaker 4 (14:43):
So certainly the adoption was a really strong point of contention.
I was given a book and that was about the dialogue,
you know. Otherwise it was like this is supposed to
be secret, like you know, we don't talk about it.
Speaker 5 (14:57):
This is your family.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
And so I had a hard time processing it when
I was young that I had parents that would give
me away. You know, I had a lot of questions
and nowhere to go with them. And then I knew
when seem as I turned eighteen and legally I could
search myself, I would, and my adoptive family was very
upset with me. Even my brother, who is also adopted,
(15:20):
was not supportive at all of me searching.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Who is supporting you right now in what's going on?
Speaker 4 (15:28):
My husband is very supportive. I have a friend, she's
a social worker, and so she was very helpful and
giving insight and information and my initial search. I'm very
grateful for her and other friends that I have, and
you know, even my kids. It's been a bit eye
opening for them, but they are very supportive and understanding.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
I can just see how emotionalness is for you. And
it's not just about the discovery of Okay, now I
finally connected. It's all these relationships that are being tested,
which are the ones that are most troubling to you?
Not the most important relationships, But which are the relationships
in which the tension is most urgent for you to repair?
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I guess with Alan, the you know, the man who
has been my father the past twenty two years, just
making sure that that's okay, because he's been such a
wonderful addition to my life and to my children's life,
and you know, I really don't want this to damage
that connection that we have.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
You were twenty two when Alan found you. What was
the reaction of your family since they had not been
supportive of your searching?
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Well, initially they were very kind of trepidacious, aloof like
not involved. But over the years it certainly like it
has improved that you know. Now it has just been
like a big extension of family, Like to the point
that my mom, my adoptive mom, when I told her
(17:04):
I was going to try to find out now who
my biological father was, reaction was like, oh, poor Alan,
you can't do that.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
To Alan, she related to that because that's how it
felt to her when you wanted to search. Yeah, what's
going to happen if you find these other people and
you have a relationship with them. She was projecting that
onto how Alan might feel.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Right, Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
So what is the current situation with Alan right now?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I'm trying to find a balance of you know, sharing.
It's a big life event, right, and so I feel
like I should be telling my parents about what's happening,
but I worry like that it's hurtful if I'm like
I talked to my about to go father and it
was really wonderful. Like, is that going to be difficult?
(17:58):
And I know that Alan has said that it is
hard for him, but he wants to know and be
kept in the loop. So we're trying to navigate it.
Just I worry every time I sent an update that
it's going to be really upsetting.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
What I think is running through all of these stories
is this fear of being abandoned by people even though
you've done nothing wrong. So you were wondering when you
were little, why did my appearance give me up? Right?
And then later you found Alan, and then you got
(18:40):
this information that he wasn't really your biological father, and
I think you're worried about are they going to feel
the same about me? And then there became this issue
of and now I found my biological father, and with
every revelation, there's this question of who's going to stay
with me through this, who's going to still love me?
(19:01):
And what is going to happen to these relationships? And
that puts you in a very precarious position emotionally.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yes, what's really compelling here is that there's this parallel
process happening on the other side. In other words, part
of why your mom and Alan perhaps are having a
hard time because there might also be wondering if she's
still going to love us if she finds these people.
(19:32):
And I think that's what's so difficult here, because it
sounds like a lot of you are in pain and
a lot of you are questioning things, And with each
new revelation, it's about, well, what does that do to
our relationship? What does that do to the love she
has for us? What does it do to the love
they have for you? And it sounds like there's a
lot of reassurance that's necessary all around. How much of
(19:56):
that goes on that reassurance from you to them, from
them to you? Is that something that's being expressed enough to.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
A degree, But I guess maybe there could be more
on whose pot I feel like I'm.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
The initiator a lot of the times, like I have
to reach out to people more than people reach out
to me to say, you know, we still love you
and it's going to be fine.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Have you seen a change in your relationship with Alan
and his family since these revelations?
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Yes? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Can you describe what's different?
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Before it was just easy, but now it's like, I
feel like I have to take a deep breath. I've
lost that sense of ease that I had before, you know,
and then this worry that wasn't there. It's hard to describe.
This doesn't feel like the connection is the same.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Right, there's this question of who am I to you
and who are you to me? Now? Yes, can we
find out a little bit more about your biological mother
and what that experience has been like for you? It
sounds incredibly painful where you've reached out to her and
at first she was somewhat receptive and then she sort
(21:17):
of closed the door, and she did it with not
a lot of sensitivity. So can you talk more about
what that was like for you?
Speaker 5 (21:27):
In a word, it has been awful.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
I think it's every adoptee's worst nightmare to be rejected again,
and with her it having been multiple times now and
the time before when I reached out to her to
find out if she would give.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Me any information about my poetical father.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
We've been rebuilding our relationship and things seemed to be
going well, and you know, my kids were excited because
in their mind it was like, oh, you know, a
new part of our family.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
This is going to be wonderful.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
And when I told her that, she just said, like, no, sorry,
like your kids have no part in my family.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
I don't want to meet them, and that was it.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Does she have children that she had subsequent to you?
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Yes, she had a son after me, but a year
after she had me.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Oh, still very young.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Yes that she kept.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yes, And did you have any contact with him?
Speaker 4 (22:25):
I did in the initial time when Alan had put
his name in and let them know he was going
to be finding me. Her and her family were interested,
and I met her family, I met her son, and
things were good. But then when things started to go bad,
I could see that as a son that he could
see that his mum was hurting, and so he was
(22:48):
pretty angry by the end about the reunion and felt
like his life had been disrupted and everything.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
So do you know why she was hurting.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
I think she was finding the reunion process hard. I
think that with her and Alan that there were a
lot of unresolved feeling that they were dealing with.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
There's kind of a whole side story of their own.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Relationship and trying to figure out what happened and where
they were, So there was conflict there at the time.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
What was her relationship with Alan that made her either
believe or decide to say that Alan was the biological father.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
She was fourteen when they started going out, and she
was sixteen when she had me, So they had a
long term relationship. He had given her a promise ring
or they were supposed to be together forever. But then
she moved away and she told him she wanted to
see other people, and one of those other people happened
(23:57):
to be a voluntial father. But I guess at some
point they must have gotten back together, you know, after
she founished she was pregnant, and so Alan then was
led to believe that he was the father and they
were going to run away together to have me. And
the day before they were supposed to leave, she told
(24:18):
him that she had told her parents and that she
was going to be sent away and that was it.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
That must have been such a difficult memory for her.
You're a teenager and you're scared, and you don't know
what to do, and you make this decision to tell
your parents because you need to. And I don't know
how they reacted, but it was a secret. They sent
(24:46):
her away, and that must have been something that was
in some ways shameful in her family. Oh yeah, And
yet when you approached the rest of the family, they
were much more welcoming. It didn't seem like they had
whatever feelings might have been there a long time ago. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Right, all the expoionens that you've now had with all
of this, how do you define what family is right now?
Speaker 5 (25:20):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (25:21):
I guess at this point, like my best answer is
that it's the people who are there for you, the
people who come into your life and stay there through
thick and thin, and who give love and receive love.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
I think that's a lovely definition.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
So for you, that would be who right now, my kids, obviously,
my husband, my mom, Alan, and his wife Susan.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Given the definition you gave us of what family means
to you, what are your hopes for what your relationship
with your biological dad and his mom will be like
going forward.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
Oh well, I have to confess.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
I'm hopeful that they will become family too such an
early stage of things that I don't know. His mom
is very warm and receptive, but with him I haven't
quite gotten a handle. And so I would say that
there is that feeling of worrying about rejection that has
(26:27):
me kind of nervous at this stage.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I want to go back just once work this question
of what happened with your biological mom. So initially she
was potentially interested in having some kind of contact with you,
and then she didn't want the kind of contact that
you wanted, which was to bring your whole family into
(26:51):
this relationship. And then she got very closed off. And
that comment sticks with me that you wrote your letter
about this isn't Mama Mia right, there's your story, and
then there's a whole story that happened, which was your
mom boyfriend, and then she said I need to see
(27:12):
other people, and she had a different boyfriend, and then
the other boyfriend maybe didn't know about that boyfriend, we
don't know, but there was a whole drama going on
with these three people. There was a whole story going on.
But the fact is that the shadow of that story
lives on in what's happening right now for your mom
and for everybody. In fact, I wonder how you've made
(27:35):
sense of your mom's reaction and have you been able
to take in it all the fact that other people
in the family on that side are interested in welcoming you.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
I don't know how to make sense really, especially as
a mother myself. It's so hard to figure out why
she wouldn't want to be open to a relationship and
why she's so closed off. I have a really hard
time understanding why it's such a hard no for her,
(28:09):
With her family being receptive and everything, it just really
doesn't make sense. And they can't shed any insight themselves.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
They actually don't know, or they can't because they feel
they need to be loyal to her and they don't
want to share that information with you.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
I guess that could be part of it.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
I think with one of her siblings, like she's more
open and.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Would say if she had insight.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
I get the impression that my podular mother is a
very emotionally closed off person.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Did you ever know your mom's parents, because it was
their decision to send her away to have the baby
do you know more about them or were they open
to meeting you?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
Yeah, so I did meet them and they were very open.
I reread all of the initial letters and cards and
everything I got from everyone recently and going through all
of this, and it was very much like we've been
waiting to do this, We've always thought about you and everything.
And even after things got kind of kaibash by my
(29:21):
violetical mother and everyone else stopped having contact with me,
there was a period of time where I still would
get letters from her mom and she would send magazine
subscriptions for my kids. But then it dwindled off, and
I'm not sure why what happened on their side of things,
you know. One of the painful things in all of
(29:43):
this was when I found the obituary for my grandmother,
and it was really hard to deal with because I
guess I naively always thought that there would be some
kind of reconciliation or some kind of resolution, or like
no one would be gone permanently before there would be
that opportunity.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
And also by not being notified when your biological grandmother dies,
there's almost like a there about who is who isn't
part of the family that you don't even get to know,
and you had been in touch and she had been
sending these subscriptions to your kids. That must have been
really difficult.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
But it definitely felt like a huge rejection because I
would have thought, at least if someone was sick or dying,
that I would have been given the opportunity to know
at the very least. And then reading the obituary, which
then had you know, all the family listed, and my
name wasn't there, and my kids' names weren't there, So
(30:46):
that was a very hurtful thing to experience.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I have a question about the relationship between Alan and
your mom. So when Alan discovered you and then got
in touch with your mom, had they been in touch
at all over the years.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
After she came back from having me.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
They tried to stay together for a period of time,
and then a month or so after they just found
like the emotion of it was too much. So I
think it was a very painful and emotional breakup for
them in light of the circumstances.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
And then that was it, and they just never saw
each other.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
And so I didn't seen each other or talk to
each other or had any kind of insight into each
other for twenty two years and then to be reuniting
with the child that they had given up, and everything
opened a lot of old booms and.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
A lot of people, you know, looking from the outside in.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Said to me after things kind of went downhill that
it seemed like she was more interested in pursuing a
relationship with him than.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
She was with me, even though he was married.
Speaker 5 (31:58):
Even though he was married.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
So many hurt feelings all around, are you able to
focus on yours?
Speaker 5 (32:07):
And a person who worries about other people's feelings? And
I think that goes back.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
To adoption trauma and always having a worry about being
rejected and people abandoning me. I don't want to self
sabotage on the one hand, and I also don't want
to not consider my own feelings because I have a
tendency to make sure other people are okay and at
(32:32):
my own expense.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Which of your relationships is the one about which you
feel most concerned, because I think you mentioned Allan before.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Yes, and I think that is the most important one
to me because their life could have been totally different
if my budgel mother had been honest way back when
you know, it's just been so many years of heartache
for them until they met me, and then it's been
really great, and now it's like this big bomb and
this big betrayal, and so I feel, I guess at
(33:04):
times like it would be hard for them to even
look at me.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I want to reframe that, because yes, there was this
time for twenty two years. That's a long time to
say I have this child out there and I'm longing
to connect with that child. That is a lot of
pain for Alan to have dealt with. But then there's
the other piece, which is that for all of these
(33:30):
years you have had this beautiful relationship with him and
his family. You say that when they look at you,
they see this reminder of trauma and pain, But I
think that when they look at you, they see love
and that they love you so much that they are
afraid of losing you. So I think that what you're
(33:52):
seeing in them isn't Oh, you know, I want to
avoid her because she's this reminder of all of this pain.
But I am so attached to this person, and I'm
afraid that our relationship is going to be changed in
a way that is going to be very sad.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
And I think it also is related to what you
said that you have this tendency to worry for other
people's feelings more than your around, and it's possible that
you're assuming something that might not be true. You're assuming
that they're in pain because you're a reminder, but they
might be in pain because they see you in pain,
(34:32):
and the pain that you might see in their eyes
the pain they see in yours. This ping pong of
pain going back and forth, but not in any way
related to any kind of regret or you said if
their lives would have been very different, if this all
wouldn't have happened, it would have it would have been
less rich all around. That seems pretty clear, given the
(34:54):
strength of the relationship over so many years. And so
I want to caution you not to assume that you
know what the pain is that they're feeling, and that
you're the cause of it.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
And it can also be many things at once, like
with your mother. It might have been very painful for
your mother to have had a hysterectomy and know that
she wasn't going to have a child in the way
that she had imagined, and that when you came into
the family, and your brother came into the family, and
you became those children, and you fulfilled that dream for her,
(35:29):
And so there's that feeling of I got to have
my kids, and I love my kids so much, and
now that they've found these other families, are they going
to leave me? You all have the same fear about
We all love each other, and there are so many
different parts of this family, and every single person is
(35:53):
asking am I going to get left out? Meaning Alan,
his family, your mother, and maybe even whatever develops with
your biological dad and his mom, and then there's your
biological mother. You know, right now the door is really closed,
but I don't know that that's the end of the story,
especially because you're in touch with part of her family
(36:15):
as well. Maybe we can give you some tools for
how you might talk to say your mom and Alan
about what your experience is, and also allowing some room
(36:38):
for you to reassure them a little bit, which isn't
so much worrying about their feelings, but just to tell
them about the depth of your feeling for them, so
that people aren't wondering, there's not this unspoken question lingering
in the air.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
And I think Christine, one way to do that is
to share with them that one thing that you've been
thinking about with all of this is what defines family.
And your definition was very specific. It was that the
people who are there for you but consistently, who remain
(37:14):
there for you through the good and the bad, through
the ups and the downs. And I think if you
share that and say that your conclusion from all of
this was that by that definition, they are and always
will be your family, and you will always be their family.
(37:36):
And to share that realization with them that after all
of these years, all of these searching, the ups and
the downs, and the revelations, that that's what you do know.
And I think it would be really powerful for you
to share that with them and to see how you
feel in sharing that with them.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
I think that's good. I think that would be helpful.
It helps me to think of it that way, like that, this,
like you know, is my family and these are the
reasons why. And so I think for me to tell
tell them that, and you know, for us to discuss that,
I think would probably be good for everyone and the
aftermath of everything that's happened in all of this, so
(38:21):
I think that that would be a good place to
start a conversation about family and what we mean to
each other.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
And it's also a good conversation to have with your
husband and your kids because they're a part of this too. Yes,
but to share with them this is where you've landed
at this moment in time, and I think it will
help your kids with whatever confusion they might have around
all of the events, and it will help your husband
(38:53):
to understand more about you and your experience.
Speaker 5 (38:56):
Yes, that's a good point too.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
One thing to keep in mind, Christine, based on what
you've described, it's possible that allan will your mom might
hear what you have to say and probably really appreciate
what you have to say, but feel that it might
be difficult for them to enter into deeper discussion of it.
(39:20):
If that's the case, it would be great if you
could do it on a video call, because you might
see the reaction in their eyes more than in the
words they're able to convey to you. If you say
that to them and you see them being very moved
and very touched but unable to go further into the
(39:44):
discussion at that time, that that might be sufficient. Not forever, obviously,
but for that moment.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
I think that's a really good point because so much
being back and forth by email or by text, you
really miss out on that human element of it that
is in people's expressions and body language and everything.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah, and they need to see you too, because they
need to see how you feel, and you're conveying that sentiment,
you know. I think that would be useful.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
And as we're talking about seeing them and having them
see you, I think there's a metaphor here, which is
that for a very long time you weren't seen. You
had all these questions, and you said it was such
a relief when you've got this information to finally both
see what the story was and to be seen. And
(40:36):
so just to keep that in your back pocket, that
idea of how important it is to finally be seen
and making these calls to them is a way of
literally and figuratively being seen.
Speaker 4 (40:52):
Yes, yeah, I think that that's important too. I really
appreciated the insight. I think something big for me is
just thinking of the context of sorry emotional of everyone
being scared and the fear that everyone has, and I
think that was a really important frame to put things in.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
You know, the scariest thing for most humans is the
idea that the love they have will be taken away yes.
And I think that every single person here, including your
biological mom, because there's something there, whether it's her son
(41:35):
who is angry or we don't really know. I think
every single person is afraid of losing love. And your
message is wait a minute, this is all about gaining love.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
Yes, Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 4 (41:52):
The other good point was not assuming what other people
are thinking, and you're thinking the worst with Alan in particular,
they might be thinking something totally positive, like not wanting
to lose me. So I think that's an important shift
for me to keep in mind too, is navigate this.
Speaker 5 (42:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
So look, thank you so much for talking with us.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Okay, well, thank you, Thank you so much, Christine. We
look forward to hearing back from you.
Speaker 5 (42:19):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
So I'm sitting here, I'm feeling this heaviness, this pain
of so many people hurting on the one hand, and
so many people who found love on the other. I'm
sure she's going to go ahead and do it. The
people she's going to say it too, will. I hope
they'll be touched by it. I hope they'll be reassured
by it. I hope they'll be able to verbalize something
(42:48):
in return. They might feel a little overwhelmed. But if
she doesn't get that response in the actual call, I'm
pretty sure she'll get it thereafter in some way.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I think with these kinds of situations, they're evolving, they're
very live, and it takes time to really figure out
what it all means when you get new information like
this on this scale. So I think this is a
good beginning to not having this guessing game going on
(43:24):
between I wonder what they're feeling. I wonder how she
feels about me. But for her to just say I
want you to know how much I love you, I
want you to know this is how I think about family,
and I think that's a great place for her to start.
So I'm really interested to hear how it felt for
her to be able to do that. This is Dear Therapist,
(43:48):
and we'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
So we heard back from Christine.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Oh wow, I really hope that went well. Let's give
it a listen.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
Hi, Lari, and I'm just circling back on our conversation
and my homework and wanted to update you. I had
my face to face conversations with most of my family
members now and it has been really healing. So much
has been skirted around or perhaps lost in translations of messages, emails,
and calls till now. It was really good to get
down to the meat of our feelings for a change
and directly address Elphin that's been in the room since
(44:30):
getting the shocking DNA results. I think they appreciate hearing
my definition of family. What was really powerful was the
acknowledgment of our mutual fear of loss. Thank you for
surfacing that for all of us. I've really mold over
that fear of loss of love aspect in my head
since talking to you, and has really really helped me
see things through a new lens that makes me feel
(44:50):
less insecure on a bigger scale. I also think it
helps me see my fellow travelers in life in a
gentler light, knowing we all share that common fear. Thank
you for helping me to get the confidence to navigate
this tumultuous family situation and a new lens to view
things through.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I love that she got right to the heart of it,
which is they were all struggling with the same thing
with I'm worried that I'm going to lose these people
that I love, and that they were receptive to hearing
it when she framed it in that way.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
And I think what's really powerful was that we spoke
just to her. But this is what happens in therapy
as well. When somebody gains a certain insight that's related
to their family, it really has a ripple effect and
it can impact an entire system, and in this case,
a really complex system. And so they all had that
(45:49):
awakening in a way.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Right if just one person opens up a conversation that
nobody knew how to broach, what a relief it is
for everybody to have, as she said, the elephant in
the room out in the open. And now people could
say me too, I feel that way too, or I'm
so glad you brought this up because because I was
feeling this and I didn't know how to talk about it,
(46:13):
and I was scared. And I think that scared is
important because there was a lot of fear on all sides.
Everybody was just so afraid of losing something. And once
you can voice that fear, then you can say, oh,
wait a minute, maybe that fear is unfounded. We actually
don't want anything to happen.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
To the bonds that we have right Once you remove
the fear, what you're left with is the love that
brings us to the end of our show for this week,
thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show,
please take a moment to rate and review it.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us big email us at Lorianguy
at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis were produced and edited by
Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Next week, a teacher talks to us about the challenges
of being physically separated from her students.
Speaker 6 (47:30):
I have students who, when it comes up at the
end of the hour, will say, I can't believe this
is almost over. This is the time during the week
that I don't feel lonely and that's just heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
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