October 29, 2024 • 59 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. Jennifer caught her fiance sending flirtatious messages to his previous girlfriend on Instagram, and feels stuck about how to address this. We help her see how her own narrative about her life is keeping her in the passenger seat and preventing her from taking charge of her decisions.
If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at LoriAndGuy@iHeartMedia.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.
And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
This week, a woman wonders if her fiance's past infidelities
on social media spelled trouble for their future together.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
It was an infatuation, but it wasn't until I caught
him this past summer where he said that he had
been in love with her. I didn't know that he
had felt that way towards her first.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
A quick note, deo therapist is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:10):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Hi, Laurie, Hey guy.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So what do we have today?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Well, today we have a complicated relationship situation and it
goes like this, dear therapists. I'm a forty two year
old woman who for the past decade has been a
single mom of one, but who now is engaged to Dayan,
a wonderful man with two kids, both teens like my son.
A year and two our dating, I became unintentionally pregnant,
which sped along the cohabitation process. My son and I
(01:48):
moved into Dan's house just two years after his contentious divorce.
The first year was really rough. Dan's daughter hated me
and acted out in rage often, and it felt like
things weren't going to be able to work. I felt
terribly guilty for the pregnancy and for putting all the
kids into this rushed and overwhelming situation. Dan and I
had good communication throughout, but at times wondered if we'd
(02:09):
be together if it wasn't for our baby that we
both wanted. Nowadays, everything feels great, his daughter has changed,
and it feels like a real blended family. We plan
to get married and have a lot of hope for
our futures and love the kids and what we've created. However,
twice in the past year, I've discovered him quote cheating
on me with women on Instagram, one being the woman
(02:30):
he had had an affair with which helped ruin his marriage.
I was devastated and almost left him, but we got
through it. He really wanted to work it out and
deleted the app. We agreed to therapy, though we haven't
started yet. But sometimes he rolls his eyes about it,
and he's made comments about his quote cheating as though
it wasn't a big deal, and gives me the impression
he's just doing therapy for my sake, like he doesn't
(02:52):
see what's wrong with what he did. I worry that
this will be an ongoing pattern. My soul says, I
can't possibly be happy with a man who behaves in
such a sneaky manner. But I feel obligated to these kids,
especially the daughter who has endured so much chaos. I
also fear becoming a single mom again and doing that
to the new baby. I want to trust my partner,
but he's downloaded the app again and sometimes I snoop
(03:14):
on it to check up on him. He gets really
annoyed when I ask to look at his phone, and
sometimes a fight can send him into doubts about us. Otherwise,
he professes great love for me and a deep commitment
to making us work. My question is should I marry
him or wait and see how the next few years go,
And is his cheating behavior worth ruining the stability and
happiness all the kids now finally have. The truth is
(03:38):
I can't leave even if I wanted to. I'm financially
bound to him, as I've had to cut my hours
to take care of the baby and I don't have
a good job. Your help would be appreciated, Jennifer.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Jennifer is in a real pickle because, on the one hand,
she's said less she can't leave for financial reasons, which
is a situation many people find themselves in, and it's
truly very, very difficult because you're making really radical choices
about financial security, food and security potentially and staying in
a situation that can make you potentially unhappy. Now, she
(04:11):
sounds optimistic, like she wants to work on things and
help them work out. And my concern is that he,
like many people, is really minimizing this activity on social
media because it's just social media. It doesn't really count.
It's not really cheating, it's not really flirting when it counts.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah. Absolutely, And something that she said really stuck out
to me, which was she said, I know my soul
can't live with this, and then the other sentence was,
but I can't leave. And so I think she's trying
to justify to herself why this is going to be
okay if something doesn't change. You know, her option was
should I marry him? Or should I wait a few
years and see how it goes? When they really have
(04:51):
to address it now, So let's go talk to her
and see what's going on.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yes, you're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Guy Wench and this is THEO Therapist. Hi Jennifer, and
welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Hi, thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Thanks for having me, well welcome.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
So, Jennifer, can you tell us a little bit about
the beginning of the relationship, how you met, where you
both were in your lives.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
But we met, it's going on three years ago on
a dating app, and it was an app where the
woman selects the man and starts the conversation. So I
was the pursuer, quote unquote, and we dated for a
good two months and kind of felt like a exciting beginning.
(05:50):
He had been fresh off of a divorce, had only
been living on his own with his kids for about
nine months when we met.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Does he have full custody?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
They had joint custody a couple days a week and
every other weekend. So he had expressed at the beginning
of dating where he was at. He was very clear
about that about hesitancy to get into a full fledged relationship,
and two months into dating, he pulled back, but then
very quickly came back, and from that coming back point,
(06:22):
we were just in a relationship. And it was by
the almost the year anniversary of us meeting that I
became pregnant.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
When he told you early on that he wasn't looking
for a relationship yet, why did you continue? Were you
looking for a relationship?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I was. I've always been insecure in my dating life.
I haven't had many successful relationships. I had been a
single mom for a good decade, had a relationship on
and off with somebody for about five or six years
that was always fraught with non commitment, and I was
(07:01):
in a very lonely spot. I knew I should and
wanted to be in a relationship. I wanted to get
married someday and have that normalcy. So I was ready
to look for a marriage partner.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
So when he told you he was not what made
you want to continue to pursue.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
It, because he would also say things like he wanted
that again. At some point he knew that down the
road that's where he wanted to be. He just felt
like he was in this bachelor stage after the divorce,
you know, he was still kind of processing that whole thing.
(07:42):
But when we first started dating, he made a lot
of really positive comments, like romantic things. I guess, like
really see myself with you. It's great that our kids
are around the same age. You know, I know in
the future what I want is to be in a
relationship again, and you know, to not be alone.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So after a couple of months, he pulled away and
then came back. Tell us what happened there, What was
the pulling away about, what was the coming back about,
and what was you accepting him back about.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
It felt to me like a spur of the moment
thing he had come over one night. I had a
couple of friends over and it was a fun evening
together with dinner, and all of a sudden, we're in
the kitchen. He said, I was honestly thinking of ending
things with you. I feel like my emotions are all
over the place. It was a couple of months into
the relationship, and he felt like where we were at
(08:34):
was either stop dating or make it a relationship, and
he didn't feel quite ready. He was scared to make
it a relationship at that point.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What was that like to you?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
It was crushing. It was very defeating for me, and
it almost like reinforced my story. I guess, like yet
another doesn't want to be with me. I just accepted
it with grace. I didn't really try to hang on
to him, and I didn't I stopped texting him. I
(09:08):
just let him make the decision, and I was okay
with that. It was out of my hands. I was
done trying to prove myself, you know. So then like
a week later, he texted me that he was sorry,
he hoped I didn't hate him. He invited me to talk,
(09:29):
and I'd written him a letter and sent it to him,
explaining how I view relationships and just making it really
clear what I was looking for. And so then we
met and he kind of started the pursuit track again.
You know. It's right around Valentine's Day, and he left
me flowers, and then he wanted to go on a
(09:50):
trip together to kind of see how he did with
each other for several days in a row, and I
guess I passed that test. And I think he talked
a lot through with his mother, and he felt like,
even though he had dated that whole year, that I
was the most compatible person that he'd met. And he
(10:10):
was kind of like scared the end things permanently, you
know what if someone else didn't come along after that.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
So he kind of wanted to be in a safe
place for him, which is I'm not really going to
commit to you, but I also don't want to let
you go. Yeah, And you were in a place of
I'm really lonely, I'll take what I can get, and
I enjoy this person.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah, and I felt really loved by him. He's a giver.
He says a lot of words of affirmation, which I
feel like that's my love language.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
If he's good with the words, how is he with
the actions?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
He's great. I mean, he's the one person that I
have ever been with that has made me feel love.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Like he really.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Shows his love through give and showing up on time.
He's always very mindful of texting and being communicative. He
takes care of everybody, even my other son who's not
his you know, like he put him on his healthcare
and he.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Pays for everything.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
He's a really good man, you know, and he takes responsibility.
Like with the sudden pregnancy, he was like he was
happy about it, and he was scared too, but he
was immediately was just like, Okay, we're doing this. We're
gonna get married, We're going to make this work.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Is that what you wanted when you became pregnant.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
When I first found out I was pregnant, I was
terrified and I thought this can't happen. And I debated
having an abortion, even though that's not my preference. But
when I told him and we talked about it, you know,
(12:01):
he jump right away to like, let's get married. And
we had mentioned marriage before then, so you know, I
felt excited. I'm always like scared to like really get
my hopes to in, but I was definitely excited, like, Oh,
this is the family that I've been wanting. We can
make this work. It's going to be crazy, but yeah,
(12:21):
I would marry him in a heartbeat, is how I felt.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Can I go back to the pregnancy for a second.
You say you unexpectedly got pregnant. Were you both just careless?
Was one of you careless? But how did that come about?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
So I had this lapse where I wasn't using any
birth control and then he wasn't being safe. We are
just being really careless. He would say like romantic things
like oh, if you got pregnant, then I definitely know
you were the one, Or oh, if we got pregnant,
we'd have a little girl, we name her this, you know,
just kind of like daydreamy romantic things. My first child
(12:59):
happened to same way. Just being careless. It's always been accidental.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
It doesn't sound accidental. It sounds like there was a
hope that you couldn't fully voice and so passively you
would try to make that desire happy.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Yeah, at least in this case, Yeah, it could be
like gives a sense of there would be stability, like
he wouldn't run away, he'd have to stay.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Although it does it does sound a little backwards that
if you got pregnant, I would know you were the one.
What I think most of us hope is that I
know you're the one, and then once we establish ourselves
as a couple, then we decide to expand into a
bigger family. So it's almost like, why would he need
(13:46):
this external validation to tell him that you were the one?
So to me, actually, to my ears, that didn't sound romantic.
To my ears, that sounded like a giant red flag.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
If I'm honest with myself, all those times I would
kind of say those things. He could be very fickle,
like one day say these romantic things, within the next
day say something that contradicts that, Like what like, oh,
I didn't know if things were going to work out
with us. I didn't know that my bachelor days were
(14:20):
going to end so soon. I didn't know that I
would find you so soon.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Is that Basically what his hesitation was that I just
got divorced. I want to have some bachelor days. If
I had met you in five years time, i'd be
totally ready to settle down again. But I just met
you too soon. Yeah, And that's the hesitation. And maybe,
in fact, that would be the sign. In other words,
if you got pregnant, it would be the sign that, yeah,
maybe it's too soon, but no, this is the right
one anyway. Yeah, but the hesitation was constantly about the timing.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah. He's expressed very clearly that that period of the
bachelorhood was him kind of having like this sigh of
relief after a marriage that had been unhappy for many years,
and then he had a very tumultuous affair with a
coworker bitter divorce, and he said that those bachelor days
(15:12):
were just him feeling free, like he can finally do
things on his own, make his own decisions, not have
to have so much responsibility running a house. You know,
he's just living in an apartment with his kids.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
What happened to the woman he had the affair with
after he got separated from his wife, was he with
her now?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
When his wife discovered the affair, she made him end
things with her, like on a three way phone call,
and when her partner found out about the affair, he
very aggressively threatened to call his words, so she quit
so cut off all contact, Like it was pretty ugly.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Did he ever talk about what it was like for
him to have to grieve both the end of a marriage,
even though it sounds like he wanted out of the marriage,
but it's still an ending to something, and then also
grieve the end of this relationship that probably made him
feel seen and alive and all those things that maybe
he wasn't feeling in his marriage. Did you guys ever
(16:17):
have a conversation about that?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah? We did. We talked pretty frankly, I want to
say several times, like around Christmas that first year, when
he would dig out the decorations and some of them
were the decorations that his ex wife had bought, So
he would get very emotional and then talk about the
pain that he inflicted on his children because they found
(16:41):
out about the affair. His wife had told the kids
even though they were like ten and eight. He was
married for over ten years and just felt a lot
of guilt around what happened because he did love her
in the beginning, and they did have a fun relationship
just with the dress of kids, and the relationship just
(17:02):
kind of got away from them and he realized he
wasn't in love with her.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
You said he felt guilt, So he realized that he
had hurt her by having the affair, not just his kids.
But did he feel guilt around having hurt her? You know,
we don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I want to say yes, but I'm not too sure
on that.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Honestly, I'm asking because it's very clear that he feels
as guilt for having hurt his kids, but he doesn't
seem to understand, at least based on your letter, that
he's hurting you by reaching out on Instagram to these women.
And so I think it's important to know how he
feels about what happened the first time, and whether he
(17:42):
realizes that he did hurt his wife by cheating on
her instead of addressing the issues directly with her.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I don't know. And you know, the first time that
I caught him with the Instagram thing, when I confronted him,
there really wasn't a sense of being sorry for me.
I think at once he did say I'm sorry to
see you sad you know, I'm sorry to see that
this hurt you.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
It's an apology that doesn't take responsibility. It's like something
happened in the world that hurt you, as opposed to
I am sorry that I hurt you.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah. I In the second time, when it was when
he had been messaging with the woman that he had
an affair with, I was so angry because there was
no sense of responsibility. He just acted like this was
just something that happened. I didn't get the sense that
he was really sorry. On my behalf. He you know, like,
(18:40):
I don't want to make my life more complicated, So
I'm not going to have an affair because I don't
want to make my life more complicated.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Did you ever talk about how he felt about having
to end a relationship with the person he was having
the affair with.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
We did talk about her. He always described as like
an infatuation. I think he did feel like it gave
him the feelings that he was wanting to feel in
his life about himself. Like he said before that his
sexuality was a big piece of his identity, and there
was no romance with his wife. It wasn't until I
(19:14):
caught him messaging with her this past summer where he
said I was in love with her. Before he always
said it was an infatuation. She was like thirteen years
younger than him, so they had fun. She was very playful.
You know, it's a very sexually charged relationship. But it
(19:36):
wasn't until I caught him this past summer where he
said that he had been in love with her, like
I didn't know that he had been, that he had
felt that way towards her. I know that he felt
affectionate towards her, in a fondness towards her, but he's
also called her dumb, and he's she's not someone he
could ever be with.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
But you know, it's an interesting rationalization when you catch
in messaging the woman with whom he had an affair,
to say, well, but I was in love with her
is a very interesting rationalization or explanation to offer in
that moment, because what does that really mean? No, it's okay,
because she wasn't just this thing. I actually had feelings
for her. Do you still? In other words, then what
(20:17):
is this about? Did you ask that?
Speaker 5 (20:20):
So?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Apparently he had had her blocked since the affair and
all the drama went down, and I guess he had
unblocked her that summer, and she's into dressing up in
costumes that are sexy and stuff like that. So I
think he was watching some of her videos, and so
she messaged him like, hey, I noticed you're viewing me,
(20:42):
which means you unblocked me. And so she just asked
about his life, and they had a conversation about how
their lives are going, and he said that he told
her he was very happy and I had actually messaged
her after this and she said, yeah, he said he
was very happy with you and loved how his life
was going. But in the midst of that, he tell
her you haunt my dreams, you know, And then she
(21:04):
said something sexual back, like I wish I could feel
you again. There's like a quick exchange of that.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
That you saw or that he told you about.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
That he told me about, and then she also told me,
and then they both mutually agreed that they're not going
to pursue this route. It was a quick message exchange
that happened over an evening and apparently no more. And
the only reason I found out about it is because
I had suspicions and I pressed him one evening and
(21:38):
he told me about it, And so now the story
goes where he thinks that he came forward to me
with this information, but he didn't come forward to me.
I pressed it out of him because I had suspicions.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Why did you have suspicions?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Because he started sleeping on the couch. I go to
bed early, so he hangs out in the living room
and you wind up falling asleep out there. But I
started to get suspicious, like, oh, that's happening a lot.
And he's always on his phone, and he was very
guarded with his phone.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Does he believe there's anything wrong in contacting this woman
or other women via Instagram? Does he think that that's
wrong or does he think that that's okay? If he
doesn't act on it, then no harm, no foul.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I think that he thinks it's not okay because we've
talked about it before, and he's definitely not okay with
me doing that. Aside from the two times that I've discovered,
I don't know of him messaging other people.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
But you said, he gets cag like why would you
be asking me?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
He gets a little defensive, he gets a little irritated,
you know, kind of just like here we go again
with your trust issues.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
So these are your issues because these are trust issues
rather than reality issues.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I feel like it took him longer than I would
have liked for him to take responsibility for talking to
the woman that he had an affair with and how
it came out. He talked about how them talking again
after that tumult was very healing for him because he
felt like everybody had been very scarred after that situation,
(23:15):
and he felt bad that she had to quit work
and they just never talked again. So he said that
talking to her again felt almost like a weight had
been lifted off of him to know that she was okay,
and for her to know that he was okay. I
pressed him, like, well, why are you looking at her
videos anyway? It's like he failed to see that he
created the situation by unblocking her, by responding to her,
(23:40):
by being the one who initiated the sexual content. And
it's just so confusing because our relationship to me feels
strong and healthy.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Can you tell us about the strong and healthy parts.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Yeah, he's someone that we can sit on the couch
and have conversations. We respect each other, We still have
a sex life life that's fun and great, very attracted
to each other. Still, we're partners. We plan our lives,
we do for the kids. We're very invested in our
family life and making it a good wholesome home for
(24:14):
these kids and having stability. We have a lot of
physical affection towards each other, hugging, a lot, you know, kissing.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
How much do you share your inner life with him?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Not that much, Honestly, I don't know. I guess I
shouldn't say that. We talk a lot about family and
feelings that come up, and we can process arguments pretty easily.
I don't share with him a lot of like my
psychological stuff. I guess I'm trying to take some computer
(24:51):
classes to sharpen my toolbox skills so I can get
out of house cleaning. And he's been a little bit
supportive of that, but doesn't fully take an interest in it.
And I've taken a creative writing class. He doesn't ask
a lot about that.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I think it's possible that he still doesn't fully understand
how it impacts you that he was in touch with
that woman he had the affair with, And it's possible
he doesn't fully understand because he didn't innately fully understand,
and you didn't fully explain it because you're hesitant to
(25:29):
talk about your feelings or your psychology, as it were.
You're not fully sharing enough with him in order to
see whether he can get it.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I feel like when I have opened up, it was
probably twinged with my anger about it, which turned him off.
You know, none of the kids were home, and we
were just yelling at each other. There were moments of like,
how much that hurt me?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I don't even mean how much this hurt me? But
let me tell you why this hurt me, because here's
my history with relationships and the fields that I carried
with me, and the feelings that I have and the
hesitancies I had. It's really explaining it to him in
a way that he grasped, not just saying I feel
blank without context.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
I see that. Yeah, I haven't really laid it out
fully like that.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
One of the things that really strikes me about your
description of meeting him was that it sounds like you
had been very lonely for the ten years before you
met him, And I think that in some ways you're
less lonely being in this family unit, but I think
in other ways you're equally lonely, and maybe in a
(26:41):
more painful way. And I see that because you've been
crying as you've been talking about some of this, And
it makes me wonder about something you wrote in your letter,
which was at one point you both said to each other,
if it weren't for this baby, we're not sure we
would be together. What did you both mean? And how
did that conversation go between the two of you? How
(27:02):
deep was that conversation.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
He's the one who would say that here and there.
Sometimes I'd be like, yeah, you're probably right.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Did you really feel that when you said, yeah, you're
probably right.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I honestly think unless he did something major deal breaker,
I probably would have stayed with the relationship because I
don't expect perfection in people. But it's funny that because
two or three days before I found out about him
talking to the A fair woman, it just been a
(27:33):
little bit stressful in the house. We were trying to
remodel the basement. Things were tense, Our baby was demanding,
and we were bickering, and we were sitting on the
couch on the day and he was like, I can
sense that you're not happy. We're not happy. Do you
ever wonder what it would be like to live apart,
but to be able to raise our baby as like friends.
(27:54):
And at that time I had kind of been feeling
fed up with just the stressors of life, from longing
for part time parenting days, longing for space, longing for privacy,
longing for time with my older son, who I feel
like I've really kind of lost in the shuffle with
the new baby. And so we kind of like fantasized about, like, well,
(28:19):
how would that look like if we split up and
just tried to make a positive co parenting situation, and
then you know it kind of slept on it and
he came back, which is true to him being kind
of fickle, Like I don't want that at all, just
the daily comfort of having your presence in the house,
just reflecting on when I was single, how lonely it
(28:42):
was when the kids weren't here. Just having your companionship
means everything to me, and I don't want that. Please
let's work this out. And then, you know, a couple
of days later when I found found out about the messaging,
which now when I put the pieces together, I'm like,
I wonder if he was saying that, so a given
permission to have the affair you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
The timing does not.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Seem to like, did you have a chance to tell
him after you slept on it how you felt about
that discussion from the night before He came and said, no,
I don't want that, but where were you and did
your voice where you were?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
And I honestly felt the same way when I really
sit and remember what it was like when my older
son wasn't there, just how lonely it was in the house.
It was just myself, you know, and just having the
presence of people.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Jennifer, I think there's a difference between having the presence
of people, meaning their physical presence they're in the house,
and having a connection with people. Yeah, and I don't
know that you have had the connection that you're looking for.
I think there have been moments when you might have
felt like you had some semblance of it, But I'm
(29:59):
not sure that the two of you have that yet.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
It's hard to say. I feel like when we hang
out they do connect with them. He is open with
me about, you know, how he feels about his family
and how he feels about us.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I don't know that he's open with you about how
he feels about the two of you. Or it could
be that he's just confused, because he gives you a
lot of different messages about how he feels about you,
and so it could be that he's not being completely
open and so he compensates by kind of flipping back
and forth. Or it could be that he truly is
just confused and he doesn't have a filter, and so
(30:35):
he tells you what he's feeling in the moment without
considering how it might land on you and what the
effect would be on you of having to hear these
very contradictory messages from one night of hey, you know,
I'm thinking maybe we should live apart to oh, no,
I really don't want that, and then almost asking you
(30:57):
to stay with him, even though he was the one
who pose the idea.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, which is a replication of what happened in that
quick breakup that you know, he did it all by himself,
Like he did the breakup and the comeback by himself,
same thing here he does the potential theoretical breakup and
then coming back by himself. He goes through these movements,
but they don't include you.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, and it's hard, you know, it's only been six
months since then, right now, it feels like we're in
a great place, you know, and he's very affirming, like
I want you in my life. You're everything to me,
you know, you make this household run, You're You're the
one I want to be with. So I feel like
(31:39):
it's hard for me to reconcile the past with how
I feel right now, And I don't know going forward
how much to take into consideration the past, or should
I just keep building on what feels like a good
foundation right now.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Let's talk about something that's happening in the present, which
is that I think he had agreed to go to
therapy with you.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Correct, he hasn't pursued it, and I put myself on
a waiting list, but I haven't pursued it another place.
I literally just called one place, put myself on a
waiting list. It hasn't come to you, and neither of
us have pursued it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Why do you think you're not pursuing it, Jennifer, you're not.
Why do you think you are not?
Speaker 3 (32:22):
That's a good question. I don't know. Part of me's
scared to find out if there's anything else that I
don't know about. I'm scared to discover another lie because
I feel like if there was another lie, that that
would be the deal breaker. And then it's like all
these kids, like all these kids are involved.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
You keep talking about the kids, and I think that
prevents you from really looking at how difficult this would
be for you.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I guess a part of me is scared if his
true feelings came out, like, yeah, I love you, but
I'm not in love with you, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I'm also wondering if part of what you're scared about
is that you've said that your story is I'm the
one that never gets to keep the good guy, and
I think that's really led you in this case to
undervoice how you feel, what your needs are, what you want.
You come at things with him as I can't ask
for too much. I can't push for too much. If
(33:23):
it's very blatant, like you're about to have an affair again,
I'll leave. But anything short of that then I will
probably accept it because my story is I don't really
get fully what I want, so I can't ask for
too much. And I think it becomes a self fulfilling
prophecy where you're with someone who maybe can give you
what you want, but if you don't ask for it,
(33:43):
then you'll never know.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah, Yeah, that resonates with me. It's definitely some truth
in there.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I think the other truth is that you're worried that
a truth will come out from him that will be
very devastating to you. But maybe your other fear is
that your truth will come out, and if you went
to therapy, you might get more clear about what you
want and whether he is the person that meets those needs.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Yeah, that could be. Yeah, I feel so powerless in
a way because of my financial situation. I feel like
if I did uncover that this wasn't something that I
ultimately wanted, I'm stuck. You know.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Was that a discussion that you guys had when you decided, Okay,
there's the baby, I have to quit my job. But
if I do that, then I become very financially dependent,
and that scares me. What's something we can do, what's
an arrangement we can make? Did you have any of
that discussion with him?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah? He said he would upfront give me like ten
thousand dollars and help me get started if you break up.
If we went Yeah, and he's even talked talked about
I would buy a condo that you could live in
and you can pay rent to me.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
So why are you screwed? If he would take care of.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
That Right now, I'm only working part time. My older
son has gained a quality of life that I feel
like I don't know that I could give him.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
But you've also mentioned that you feel that your oldest
son got lost in the shuffle with you a little bit.
So he might get a quality of life and stuff,
but he might have lost a little bit of mum,
is what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Also, I feel that way. I don't know that my
son feels that way. It's hard to tell because he's fourteen.
You know, he's talking to one day and then the
next day he's like, I don't want anything to do
with you. I feel like he's had a good foundation,
good great childhood that I was able to provide for him.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
You gave him that.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yeah, and you know, his father is a good person.
He's got a lot of problems, but our extended family
is really involved and you know, set them to a
great school. He has lasting friendships and great experiences there.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Good.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
But then, Jennifer, you know you are not like screwed
in the sense of I truly don't have an option
because I cannot support myself and my son. There's extended
family support. You're not completely unable to do that.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I actually think that the one way that you are
trapped is emotionally. Ye that it's not logistically that you
are very trapped emotionally. Your old story keeps getting in
the way. Part of you says, wait, let me hold
on to my lifeline here. This is the only relationship
I've had that has worked in any way, shape or form,
(36:41):
even if it's not ideal, and I'm not going to
do anything to jeopardize that. To these two competing parts
of you, the one that says, my soul can't take this,
and the part that says, but I also can't live without.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
This, Yeah, that's true. And I don't know which one
in light of taking responsibility for your choices and you know,
putting aside yourself for the sake of family. It's not
our particular. I mean, the whole thing has just been
one big ball of suffering for her, and she's just
(37:17):
finally gained some stability, and it's like if for some
reason in the next year the rug gets pulled out again.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Hey, Jennifer, who pulled the rung out from under her
by having the affair.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, her father, But I wouldn't want that to further
damage her relationship to him, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
But he made a choice, and there are consequences to
that choice, and you're trying to protect him from the
consequences of his choice without protecting yourself. Yeah, and you're
also not protecting the relationship. You're leaving the relationship in
a very precarious place. It's dangerous to do what you're
(38:00):
doing because you're leaving the relationship very vulnerable to self destruction.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
For two reasons, Jennifer. Number one, because when you have
worries and fears and doubts that you don't want to
go to therapy to get in touch with, it means
that they're there in your head. They're going to get
activated and strongly. But the other thing is, it's okay
to say a factor in my decision is also going
(38:28):
to be not just my children, but his, because I
do feel a certain obligation towards the daughter. It's okay
to say that, as long as you also say, but
what is going to be in the equation very strongly
is what my needs are and what my feelings are.
My concern is that you are thinking about the daughter
(38:49):
before you even get to think about yeah, yourself in
some way.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, that's probably true. I feel like responsible and guilty
at the same time because we're the ones who messed
up by getting pregnant accidentally.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Take away that word accidentally. We're the ones who decided
to get pregnant without thinking about it. It wasn't accidental.
The more you can tell the truth about the two
of you and your story, the more you'll be able
to tell the truth about the two of you and
your story going forward. So the true story is I
was very seduced by this idea of having a baby
(39:24):
with him. He kept putting that idea in my head,
and I was seduced by it, and we both, as
responsible adults, didn't act responsibly. We made a decision. We
didn't voice that decision explicitly, but we made a decision
that we were going to have sex without birth control,
knowing that we could have a baby together. It's not
rocket science, it's.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Not yeah, it's you know. I guess Another part is
like if I learned my true feelings, then I'd actually
have to plan my life forward and my life has
always happened to me. I've never really designed my life,
(40:02):
so to speak.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
I would have to drive the car instead of just
being driven wherever somebody wants to take me or wherever
life takes me.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Is that not an appealing idea of you're driving the
car yourself rather than having to be taken to where
the driver wants to take you.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah, no, it is definitely.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
You know, it's a scary position for you because oh
it's my car. I have to drive it, and I
have to then be responsible for the decisions rather than
deal with what quote unquote happens. I understand it can
be scary, but I want you to really think a
lot about this idea of the liberation of it, the
potential security you can find in it, so.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
What to face. But I want to I want before
we start planning a wedding, I want to find that
out for myself.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Can you tell us a little bit about what things
were like for you growing up. I'm just curious where
this story came from.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Yeah, my parents are, they're still married. All my neighbors
were church friends, a lot of playing outside kids over
all the time, I would say, it's really happy childhood,
and then my teenage years we moved, and my teenage
years just felt like the family just splintered apart, like
(41:21):
everybody was kind of in their own rooms. There wasn't
a lot of involvement on my parents' part. In my
early twenties, I learned that my dad had an affair,
and it was probably around the time when we moved.
So I don't think my mom has fully gotten over that.
(41:42):
She's just depressed.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Who told you about the affair? You said you didn't
find out until you were in your twenties.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yeah, my mom just blurted it out one night. It
was on the eve of my older sister getting married,
and my younger sister and my parents and I were
sitting at the table after a rehearsal dinner at night,
and I don't even remember how it came up, but
she got real angry and she grabbed a knife and
she said, why don't you tell them about the affair,
(42:08):
And so my dad like confessed this affair that happened
when we were children. I don't know. I just always
felt like she uses that to like blame him for
her unhappiness, even though they don't talk about it and
their life is fine.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
It must have been a big deal though, because you moved. Yeah,
it sounds like the family had a very integrated experience
in that community and then all of a sudden, the
whole family moved, and you guys didn't really know why.
But what were you told at the time, Since you
didn't know that that was the reason, it.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Was always just painted like Mom's not happy, she wants
to live in a newer house. After we knew about
the affair, Mom said, yeah, I had to get out
of that neighborhood. I just needed to have a new start.
And it kind of felt like it was my older
sister and my mom on one side, then me and
my dad and my younger sister on another side, Like
we were more free spirited ones and they were the
(43:04):
judging kind of not okay with that.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
You might have been on team dad when you were
a kid, but right now you're replicating your mom's footsteps
in the sense that there was an affair, she stayed,
she wasn't happy. It's unclear to me that your parents
ever did the work to fully repair things. And here
you are, so you are forewarned by your mum's experience
that you have to do the work to repair, otherwise
(43:31):
you might end up like your mom, being sad in
your room, feeling lonely even though the people around.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
That's a great point. Yeah, and you can see that.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
And I keep thinking about your story about how here
we go again. No man is going to want to
stay with me. And I think that when you grew
up in a house where there was an unresolved affair,
and what I mean by unresolved is it sounds like
it didn't really repair it, and so it still lives
very much in the space between them. Feel that in
(44:00):
a household you might not know what it was. You
didn't find out till later, but even now as an adult,
so you found out twenty years ago, it still lives
in your fami.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
It does because I feel like my mom holds back
loving my dad.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
It hasn't been repaired. You can't have empathy for her
in some way because it's so scary to go there,
because I think you see yourself in her a little bit.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Yeah, you're right. I think that's probably right.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Just because your parents didn't repair what they needed to
repair and their story is kind of stagnant. I wonder
if you can move to a different place and create
a wholly original story that reflects more of the truth
of who you are and your experience, like the story
of I can't leave because I wouldn't be able to
raise my son. Well, you raised him quite well under
(44:47):
the circumstances. Yeah, And then I imagine the kids in
the household. You're so concerned about their wellbeing, and I
imagine the kids in the household living the way you
guys did, which was when you moved as t you said,
things shifted. The household felt totally different. And I think
that the kids in this household will sense it too,
(45:07):
that there is something between the two of you. Even
if you try to put on a good front, they're
going to sense it. And that's why I think not
going to therapy and not dealing with this and not
finding out who the two of you are in relation
to both each other and yourselves, is dangerous, not only
for the two of you, but for the whole family.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
You're absolutely right. Yeah, you're absolutely right, And that's all
it was.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
For me.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
It was like a new mom and they weren't happy.
Now I was saying anything but physical expressions. Say everything you.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Know right, and you might even be able to model
something for you, Maam, about speaking up, more about asking
for things, but for you to really take over the
driving and make sure that you steer the relationship to
either a place that is good for all or not.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I just want to check in with you. You were crying
a lot during the session, and when we started talking
about this idea that maybe your story needs a revision,
that maybe it's not so accurate, that maybe you're replaying
something that really isn't yours, you started smiling, you started
sitting up in your chair, your whole demeanor changed, and
(46:24):
so I just want to care how you're feeling about
where we are in the conversation right now.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
I feel like I know what I need to do,
even though I do sense myself like, no, don't look
at that too much, like there is an acknowledgment more
that I have some needs that are not being met
and I don't know if they can be met. But
(46:53):
I feel more of a clarity about the story that
I tell myself self fulfilling prophecy. I feel some hope.
I've been trying to deny this sense of unrest in
the relationship. I've been trying to talk it away and
(47:13):
rationalize it and it feels good to know that I
have to look at it and have to look at
it with him, So I feel I feel pretty positive,
even though it's terrifying in a way.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
So, Jennifer, we have some advice for you. We were
thinking about your story and your story being the one
you tell yourself, and we want you to write your
story differently. Specifically, we want you to go through all
the major moments in your life that happened, especially with relationships,
(48:00):
and describe them in a very active as opposed to
a passive voice. So you didn't get pregnant by accident
and you chose not to took birth control would be
the active voice. You didn't just settle for Dan. You
were lonely and you chose to be with him because
you thought you would be less lonely. You did a
(48:23):
great job with your son because he's You put him
in a great school, You allowed him to have a
lot of friends in a very big support system, and
he sounds like he's really thriving. You decided to take
classes and started taking computer classes creative writing for both
personal and professional enrichment. So everything that you talk about
(48:47):
is your choice. You own the responsibility and it's a
very active voice, and we want you to literally write
it as an essay. This is your story. Okay, right,
every time you write something, go back and make sure
it's fully in the active voice.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
Okay. Sounds great.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
And I think that a part of you hasn't felt
like you could have your driver's license. So it's time
to get your driver's license. And then as a newly
licensed driver who has that freedom and that independence, we
would like you to make sure that you are guided
by your internal GPS in terms of wherever you go.
(49:31):
That means that you've said very clearly what your soul
can and can't handle. And we think you should drive
yourself to therapy with Dan because we think that in
this new story, you can handle your truth and you
can handle his truth. And I think that when you
(49:51):
go back and revise your old story, you'll see that
you handled a lot. It might have been painful, it
might have been difficult, but you did handle it, and
we think you would handle it much more smoothly now
because you have a driver's license.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
I like that it's a good analogy.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
And we think that knowing his truth and knowing your
truth and being able to talk about it openly will
lead you to the destination that you want to go to,
and that might be a destination where you create a
really strong marriage with Dan. It might be a destination
that looks different from that, but it will be a
(50:26):
better destination than the kind of waystation you're stuck in
right now.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
I like that. Yeah, that sounds good. I'm looking forward
to doing that. Actually good.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Well, it's one more thing. Given Dan has been defensive
about the therapy, we would likely to present it to
him in the following way. Look, I was thinking about
my parents, and I was thinking how they never really
fully dealt with the trust issue, and how because they
never did, it hovered between them for forty years. And
(51:00):
I don't want that for us. I want us to
deal with it so we can move past it. That's
the goal of doing therapy, to be able to deal
And if we don't talk about it with someone, it'll
hover and that won't be good for the relationship or
for either of us, and that's not something I want.
So I'm going to make an appointment for therapy and
I'd like us to go and talk.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
That's a very conscious way of saying it. Yeah, I
like that.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
I just want to address the kids piece too, because
I know you're both very concerned about the kids, and
I want to assure you that kids do best when
there's not some secret hovering in the household. You know
that from personal experience, and I think that you're so
worried that if you go to therapy it will hurt
the kids. If you go to therapy, it will help
(51:48):
the kids.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
That feels good to have that affirmed.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, And just having tension between the parents, you may
think you're doing a good job of covering that.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Very perceptive, that's true teenagers especially.
Speaker 3 (52:02):
Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate this session.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
You're very welcome, and let us know how it goes.
Speaker 4 (52:09):
We'll do.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
This exercise of rewrite your story is a powerful exercise
that really changes how you see yourself and how you
see your history when you revise it to focus on
the action, on the choices, on the agency as opposed
to the pacivity. And I'm hoping it has that impact.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
And I think it's sometimes the reason that people are
afraid to see themselves as the protagonist in their story
is because of the subplot in the story, which is
I don't trust myself, nobody loves me. I'm not good enough.
And so once you start to rewrite the entirety of
the story, you start to see, wait a minute, I
am the protagonist, and I am very capable and competent,
(52:58):
and I get to make different choices this time.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
The example of I chose to not use birth control,
I didn't just accidentally get pregnant is a great example
how you're talking about the same event, You're saying it
in a realistic way. You can't rewrite your story in
a fake way. It has to sound true to your
own ears. And I chose not to use birth control
is true and will sound true to her and is
(53:22):
very different than I accidentally got pregnant. So it's a
great example of that pivot. It's very different messaging about
who you are and how you function.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
Yeah, and I would say the last thing is that
she wants honesty from Dan, But I think first she's
going to need to be honest with herself, and she's
rewriting her story without judgment. There's no shame here. It's
I made some decisions. Some of them were really good decisions.
Some of them were decisions I might make differently, but
they were mine, and I'm going to be more intentional
(53:55):
about the decisions that I make now that I have
my driver's license. So I'm really excited to say how
she rewrites this story and what that does for her
in terms of reframing what she wants to do in
this moment. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.
We'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (54:27):
So we heard back from Jennifer. We sent her to
remind you to driving school. Let's see what she picked up.
Speaker 3 (54:34):
Hi, Laurie and Guy, I'm calling to give you an
update on the hamewark that you gave me. I had
the therapy talk with my fiance and it went really well.
Speaker 4 (54:43):
I used your.
Speaker 3 (54:45):
Advice on framing it in the context of my parents'
unresolved issues and how I didn't want distrust and resentment
to build over the years, and he was very open
to going to therapy and actually seemed like it's something
he really wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (55:02):
He thought it was a good idea that we do
that before.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
We get married, and we agreed to talk about everything
that's happened over the past year, with the indiscrestions on
Instagram and the situation of adjusting to the household with
the kids and the time where we had talked about
living separately.
Speaker 4 (55:23):
So I'm excited about that. As far as the other
part of the.
Speaker 3 (55:26):
Homework goes with the writing assignment, where I write in
the active, I actually found it very empowering. Especially it
kind of gave me a sense of security knowing that
I have such decision making power in my own life.
Silly as that sounds, but it did bring up some
shame for me. I had this sense of why didn't
(55:46):
I think of this sooner? And how different could crossroads
of my life been had I been more decisive and
not just sort of went with the flow or deferred
to others around me as far as how to make
my decisions. I wound up thinking of my mom while
I was writing it and looking back on my life,
and how I wished that she had used more of
(56:08):
her voice with me, shared her guidance.
Speaker 4 (56:11):
I feel like I was a little bit left.
Speaker 3 (56:14):
To the wind in my teenage years by my parents,
feel like they were both kind of disappeared in a way.
So I've decided to go to individual therapy as well
to deal with these unresolved issues. I'm looking forward to
the therapy with my fiance I'm scared of what might
come up, mainly if there has.
Speaker 4 (56:32):
Been another indiscretion.
Speaker 3 (56:34):
But the good thing is that I'm wanting to face
the truth whatever way it is, and I feel ready
to be more in the driver's seat in my life.
So I just want to really thank you guys. I
really appreciate it. It's helped me so much, So thank you.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
I think the theme here is that it's not what
you say, it's how you say, and it's how you
convey sentiments to your partner when you're trying to say
something difficult, and it's how you frame things in your
own mind when you're telling yourself your own story, and
changing that language can make a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
So many times people say, well I can't get my
partner to go do therapy with me, and a lot
of it has to do with how they're presenting it
and what the purpose of it is. And I think
really making it personal about Listen. I saw this firsthand
with my parents when it didn't resolve this, and I
care too much about us to have that happen to us.
(57:34):
He really responded to that, and I think that going forward,
she's going to be much more aware that she doesn't
have to just let life happen to her. That she
gets to choose which direction she wants to go in,
and I think that that will bode well both for
her individually and for her in the marriage.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Being in the driver's seat always feels better.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
You can also find us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb
dot com and you can follow me on Twitter at
(58:19):
lorigottlib one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com and on Twitter and
Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd like
to discuss with us, Big Osnool, email us at Lorianguy
at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast Fairygodmother Katie Kuric.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
Next week, a man struggles with guilt over how much
he should take care of his aging parents despite their
abuse growing up. He called us names.
Speaker 5 (59:01):
You told us we were worthless, you know, like the
physical abuse, like spitting in my face.
Speaker 2 (59:05):
Like he's just like, I don't remember that.
Speaker 5 (59:07):
I was just like, Okay, well, I don't even need
to try anymore because you're going to continue with this behavior,
and I just I don't want to be part of that.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
THEO Therapist is a production of iHeart Radio.
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.
And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
This week, a woman wonders if her fiance's past infidelities
on social media spelled trouble for their future together.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
It was an infatuation, but it wasn't until I caught
him this past summer where he said that he had
been in love with her. I didn't know that he
had felt that way towards her first.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
A quick note, deo therapist is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:10):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Hi, Laurie, Hey guy.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So what do we have today?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Well, today we have a complicated relationship situation and it
goes like this, dear therapists. I'm a forty two year
old woman who for the past decade has been a
single mom of one, but who now is engaged to Dayan,
a wonderful man with two kids, both teens like my son.
A year and two our dating, I became unintentionally pregnant,
which sped along the cohabitation process. My son and I
(01:48):
moved into Dan's house just two years after his contentious divorce.
The first year was really rough. Dan's daughter hated me
and acted out in rage often, and it felt like
things weren't going to be able to work. I felt
terribly guilty for the pregnancy and for putting all the
kids into this rushed and overwhelming situation. Dan and I
had good communication throughout, but at times wondered if we'd
(02:09):
be together if it wasn't for our baby that we
both wanted. Nowadays, everything feels great, his daughter has changed,
and it feels like a real blended family. We plan
to get married and have a lot of hope for
our futures and love the kids and what we've created. However,
twice in the past year, I've discovered him quote cheating
on me with women on Instagram, one being the woman
(02:30):
he had had an affair with which helped ruin his marriage.
I was devastated and almost left him, but we got
through it. He really wanted to work it out and
deleted the app. We agreed to therapy, though we haven't
started yet. But sometimes he rolls his eyes about it,
and he's made comments about his quote cheating as though
it wasn't a big deal, and gives me the impression
he's just doing therapy for my sake, like he doesn't
(02:52):
see what's wrong with what he did. I worry that
this will be an ongoing pattern. My soul says, I
can't possibly be happy with a man who behaves in
such a sneaky manner. But I feel obligated to these kids,
especially the daughter who has endured so much chaos. I
also fear becoming a single mom again and doing that
to the new baby. I want to trust my partner,
but he's downloaded the app again and sometimes I snoop
(03:14):
on it to check up on him. He gets really
annoyed when I ask to look at his phone, and
sometimes a fight can send him into doubts about us. Otherwise,
he professes great love for me and a deep commitment
to making us work. My question is should I marry
him or wait and see how the next few years go,
And is his cheating behavior worth ruining the stability and
happiness all the kids now finally have. The truth is
(03:38):
I can't leave even if I wanted to. I'm financially
bound to him, as I've had to cut my hours
to take care of the baby and I don't have
a good job. Your help would be appreciated, Jennifer.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Jennifer is in a real pickle because, on the one hand,
she's said less she can't leave for financial reasons, which
is a situation many people find themselves in, and it's
truly very, very difficult because you're making really radical choices
about financial security, food and security potentially and staying in
a situation that can make you potentially unhappy. Now, she
(04:11):
sounds optimistic, like she wants to work on things and
help them work out. And my concern is that he,
like many people, is really minimizing this activity on social
media because it's just social media. It doesn't really count.
It's not really cheating, it's not really flirting when it counts.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah. Absolutely, And something that she said really stuck out
to me, which was she said, I know my soul
can't live with this, and then the other sentence was,
but I can't leave. And so I think she's trying
to justify to herself why this is going to be
okay if something doesn't change. You know, her option was
should I marry him? Or should I wait a few
years and see how it goes? When they really have
(04:51):
to address it now, So let's go talk to her
and see what's going on.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yes, you're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Guy Wench and this is THEO Therapist. Hi Jennifer, and
welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Hi, thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Thanks for having me, well welcome.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
So, Jennifer, can you tell us a little bit about
the beginning of the relationship, how you met, where you
both were in your lives.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
But we met, it's going on three years ago on
a dating app, and it was an app where the
woman selects the man and starts the conversation. So I
was the pursuer, quote unquote, and we dated for a
good two months and kind of felt like a exciting beginning.
(05:50):
He had been fresh off of a divorce, had only
been living on his own with his kids for about
nine months when we met.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Does he have full custody?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
They had joint custody a couple days a week and
every other weekend. So he had expressed at the beginning
of dating where he was at. He was very clear
about that about hesitancy to get into a full fledged relationship,
and two months into dating, he pulled back, but then
very quickly came back, and from that coming back point,
(06:22):
we were just in a relationship. And it was by
the almost the year anniversary of us meeting that I
became pregnant.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
When he told you early on that he wasn't looking
for a relationship yet, why did you continue? Were you
looking for a relationship?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I was. I've always been insecure in my dating life.
I haven't had many successful relationships. I had been a
single mom for a good decade, had a relationship on
and off with somebody for about five or six years
that was always fraught with non commitment, and I was
(07:01):
in a very lonely spot. I knew I should and
wanted to be in a relationship. I wanted to get
married someday and have that normalcy. So I was ready
to look for a marriage partner.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
So when he told you he was not what made
you want to continue to pursue.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
It, because he would also say things like he wanted
that again. At some point he knew that down the
road that's where he wanted to be. He just felt
like he was in this bachelor stage after the divorce,
you know, he was still kind of processing that whole thing.
(07:42):
But when we first started dating, he made a lot
of really positive comments, like romantic things. I guess, like
really see myself with you. It's great that our kids
are around the same age. You know, I know in
the future what I want is to be in a
relationship again, and you know, to not be alone.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So after a couple of months, he pulled away and
then came back. Tell us what happened there, What was
the pulling away about, what was the coming back about,
and what was you accepting him back about.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
It felt to me like a spur of the moment
thing he had come over one night. I had a
couple of friends over and it was a fun evening
together with dinner, and all of a sudden, we're in
the kitchen. He said, I was honestly thinking of ending
things with you. I feel like my emotions are all
over the place. It was a couple of months into
the relationship, and he felt like where we were at
(08:34):
was either stop dating or make it a relationship, and
he didn't feel quite ready. He was scared to make
it a relationship at that point.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What was that like to you?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
It was crushing. It was very defeating for me, and
it almost like reinforced my story. I guess, like yet
another doesn't want to be with me. I just accepted
it with grace. I didn't really try to hang on
to him, and I didn't I stopped texting him. I
(09:08):
just let him make the decision, and I was okay
with that. It was out of my hands. I was
done trying to prove myself, you know. So then like
a week later, he texted me that he was sorry,
he hoped I didn't hate him. He invited me to talk,
(09:29):
and I'd written him a letter and sent it to him,
explaining how I view relationships and just making it really
clear what I was looking for. And so then we
met and he kind of started the pursuit track again.
You know. It's right around Valentine's Day, and he left
me flowers, and then he wanted to go on a
(09:50):
trip together to kind of see how he did with
each other for several days in a row, and I
guess I passed that test. And I think he talked
a lot through with his mother, and he felt like,
even though he had dated that whole year, that I
was the most compatible person that he'd met. And he
(10:10):
was kind of like scared the end things permanently, you
know what if someone else didn't come along after that.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
So he kind of wanted to be in a safe
place for him, which is I'm not really going to
commit to you, but I also don't want to let
you go. Yeah, And you were in a place of
I'm really lonely, I'll take what I can get, and
I enjoy this person.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah, and I felt really loved by him. He's a giver.
He says a lot of words of affirmation, which I
feel like that's my love language.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
If he's good with the words, how is he with
the actions?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
He's great. I mean, he's the one person that I
have ever been with that has made me feel love.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Like he really.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Shows his love through give and showing up on time.
He's always very mindful of texting and being communicative. He
takes care of everybody, even my other son who's not
his you know, like he put him on his healthcare
and he.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Pays for everything.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
He's a really good man, you know, and he takes responsibility.
Like with the sudden pregnancy, he was like he was
happy about it, and he was scared too, but he
was immediately was just like, Okay, we're doing this. We're
gonna get married, We're going to make this work.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Is that what you wanted when you became pregnant.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
When I first found out I was pregnant, I was
terrified and I thought this can't happen. And I debated
having an abortion, even though that's not my preference. But
when I told him and we talked about it, you know,
(12:01):
he jump right away to like, let's get married. And
we had mentioned marriage before then, so you know, I
felt excited. I'm always like scared to like really get
my hopes to in, but I was definitely excited, like, Oh,
this is the family that I've been wanting. We can
make this work. It's going to be crazy, but yeah,
(12:21):
I would marry him in a heartbeat, is how I felt.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Can I go back to the pregnancy for a second.
You say you unexpectedly got pregnant. Were you both just careless?
Was one of you careless? But how did that come about?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
So I had this lapse where I wasn't using any
birth control and then he wasn't being safe. We are
just being really careless. He would say like romantic things
like oh, if you got pregnant, then I definitely know
you were the one, Or oh, if we got pregnant,
we'd have a little girl, we name her this, you know,
just kind of like daydreamy romantic things. My first child
(12:59):
happened to same way. Just being careless. It's always been accidental.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
It doesn't sound accidental. It sounds like there was a
hope that you couldn't fully voice and so passively you
would try to make that desire happy.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Yeah, at least in this case, Yeah, it could be
like gives a sense of there would be stability, like
he wouldn't run away, he'd have to stay.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Although it does it does sound a little backwards that
if you got pregnant, I would know you were the one.
What I think most of us hope is that I
know you're the one, and then once we establish ourselves
as a couple, then we decide to expand into a
bigger family. So it's almost like, why would he need
(13:46):
this external validation to tell him that you were the one?
So to me, actually, to my ears, that didn't sound romantic.
To my ears, that sounded like a giant red flag.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
If I'm honest with myself, all those times I would
kind of say those things. He could be very fickle,
like one day say these romantic things, within the next
day say something that contradicts that, Like what like, oh,
I didn't know if things were going to work out
with us. I didn't know that my bachelor days were
(14:20):
going to end so soon. I didn't know that I
would find you so soon.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Is that Basically what his hesitation was that I just
got divorced. I want to have some bachelor days. If
I had met you in five years time, i'd be
totally ready to settle down again. But I just met
you too soon. Yeah, And that's the hesitation. And maybe,
in fact, that would be the sign. In other words,
if you got pregnant, it would be the sign that, yeah,
maybe it's too soon, but no, this is the right
one anyway. Yeah, but the hesitation was constantly about the timing.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah. He's expressed very clearly that that period of the
bachelorhood was him kind of having like this sigh of
relief after a marriage that had been unhappy for many years,
and then he had a very tumultuous affair with a
coworker bitter divorce, and he said that those bachelor days
(15:12):
were just him feeling free, like he can finally do
things on his own, make his own decisions, not have
to have so much responsibility running a house. You know,
he's just living in an apartment with his kids.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
What happened to the woman he had the affair with
after he got separated from his wife, was he with
her now?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
When his wife discovered the affair, she made him end
things with her, like on a three way phone call,
and when her partner found out about the affair, he
very aggressively threatened to call his words, so she quit
so cut off all contact, Like it was pretty ugly.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Did he ever talk about what it was like for
him to have to grieve both the end of a marriage,
even though it sounds like he wanted out of the marriage,
but it's still an ending to something, and then also
grieve the end of this relationship that probably made him
feel seen and alive and all those things that maybe
he wasn't feeling in his marriage. Did you guys ever
(16:17):
have a conversation about that?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah? We did. We talked pretty frankly, I want to
say several times, like around Christmas that first year, when
he would dig out the decorations and some of them
were the decorations that his ex wife had bought, So
he would get very emotional and then talk about the
pain that he inflicted on his children because they found
(16:41):
out about the affair. His wife had told the kids
even though they were like ten and eight. He was
married for over ten years and just felt a lot
of guilt around what happened because he did love her
in the beginning, and they did have a fun relationship
just with the dress of kids, and the relationship just
(17:02):
kind of got away from them and he realized he
wasn't in love with her.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
You said he felt guilt, So he realized that he
had hurt her by having the affair, not just his kids.
But did he feel guilt around having hurt her? You know,
we don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I want to say yes, but I'm not too sure
on that.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Honestly, I'm asking because it's very clear that he feels
as guilt for having hurt his kids, but he doesn't
seem to understand, at least based on your letter, that
he's hurting you by reaching out on Instagram to these women.
And so I think it's important to know how he
feels about what happened the first time, and whether he
(17:42):
realizes that he did hurt his wife by cheating on
her instead of addressing the issues directly with her.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I don't know. And you know, the first time that
I caught him with the Instagram thing, when I confronted him,
there really wasn't a sense of being sorry for me.
I think at once he did say I'm sorry to
see you sad you know, I'm sorry to see that
this hurt you.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
It's an apology that doesn't take responsibility. It's like something
happened in the world that hurt you, as opposed to
I am sorry that I hurt you.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah. I In the second time, when it was when
he had been messaging with the woman that he had
an affair with, I was so angry because there was
no sense of responsibility. He just acted like this was
just something that happened. I didn't get the sense that
he was really sorry. On my behalf. He you know, like,
(18:40):
I don't want to make my life more complicated, So
I'm not going to have an affair because I don't
want to make my life more complicated.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Did you ever talk about how he felt about having
to end a relationship with the person he was having
the affair with.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
We did talk about her. He always described as like
an infatuation. I think he did feel like it gave
him the feelings that he was wanting to feel in
his life about himself. Like he said before that his
sexuality was a big piece of his identity, and there
was no romance with his wife. It wasn't until I
(19:14):
caught him messaging with her this past summer where he
said I was in love with her. Before he always
said it was an infatuation. She was like thirteen years
younger than him, so they had fun. She was very playful.
You know, it's a very sexually charged relationship. But it
(19:36):
wasn't until I caught him this past summer where he
said that he had been in love with her, like
I didn't know that he had been, that he had
felt that way towards her. I know that he felt
affectionate towards her, in a fondness towards her, but he's
also called her dumb, and he's she's not someone he
could ever be with.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
But you know, it's an interesting rationalization when you catch
in messaging the woman with whom he had an affair,
to say, well, but I was in love with her
is a very interesting rationalization or explanation to offer in
that moment, because what does that really mean? No, it's okay,
because she wasn't just this thing. I actually had feelings
for her. Do you still? In other words, then what
(20:17):
is this about? Did you ask that?
Speaker 5 (20:20):
So?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Apparently he had had her blocked since the affair and
all the drama went down, and I guess he had
unblocked her that summer, and she's into dressing up in
costumes that are sexy and stuff like that. So I
think he was watching some of her videos, and so
she messaged him like, hey, I noticed you're viewing me,
(20:42):
which means you unblocked me. And so she just asked
about his life, and they had a conversation about how
their lives are going, and he said that he told
her he was very happy and I had actually messaged
her after this and she said, yeah, he said he
was very happy with you and loved how his life
was going. But in the midst of that, he tell
her you haunt my dreams, you know, And then she
(21:04):
said something sexual back, like I wish I could feel
you again. There's like a quick exchange of that.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
That you saw or that he told you about.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
That he told me about, and then she also told me,
and then they both mutually agreed that they're not going
to pursue this route. It was a quick message exchange
that happened over an evening and apparently no more. And
the only reason I found out about it is because
I had suspicions and I pressed him one evening and
(21:38):
he told me about it, And so now the story
goes where he thinks that he came forward to me
with this information, but he didn't come forward to me.
I pressed it out of him because I had suspicions.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Why did you have suspicions?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Because he started sleeping on the couch. I go to
bed early, so he hangs out in the living room
and you wind up falling asleep out there. But I
started to get suspicious, like, oh, that's happening a lot.
And he's always on his phone, and he was very
guarded with his phone.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Does he believe there's anything wrong in contacting this woman
or other women via Instagram? Does he think that that's
wrong or does he think that that's okay? If he
doesn't act on it, then no harm, no foul.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I think that he thinks it's not okay because we've
talked about it before, and he's definitely not okay with
me doing that. Aside from the two times that I've discovered,
I don't know of him messaging other people.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
But you said, he gets cag like why would you
be asking me?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
He gets a little defensive, he gets a little irritated,
you know, kind of just like here we go again
with your trust issues.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
So these are your issues because these are trust issues
rather than reality issues.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I feel like it took him longer than I would
have liked for him to take responsibility for talking to
the woman that he had an affair with and how
it came out. He talked about how them talking again
after that tumult was very healing for him because he
felt like everybody had been very scarred after that situation,
(23:15):
and he felt bad that she had to quit work
and they just never talked again. So he said that
talking to her again felt almost like a weight had
been lifted off of him to know that she was okay,
and for her to know that he was okay. I
pressed him, like, well, why are you looking at her
videos anyway? It's like he failed to see that he
created the situation by unblocking her, by responding to her,
(23:40):
by being the one who initiated the sexual content. And
it's just so confusing because our relationship to me feels
strong and healthy.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Can you tell us about the strong and healthy parts.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Yeah, he's someone that we can sit on the couch
and have conversations. We respect each other, We still have
a sex life life that's fun and great, very attracted
to each other. Still, we're partners. We plan our lives,
we do for the kids. We're very invested in our
family life and making it a good wholesome home for
(24:14):
these kids and having stability. We have a lot of
physical affection towards each other, hugging, a lot, you know, kissing.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
How much do you share your inner life with him?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Not that much, Honestly, I don't know. I guess I
shouldn't say that. We talk a lot about family and
feelings that come up, and we can process arguments pretty easily.
I don't share with him a lot of like my
psychological stuff. I guess I'm trying to take some computer
(24:51):
classes to sharpen my toolbox skills so I can get
out of house cleaning. And he's been a little bit
supportive of that, but doesn't fully take an interest in it.
And I've taken a creative writing class. He doesn't ask
a lot about that.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I think it's possible that he still doesn't fully understand
how it impacts you that he was in touch with
that woman he had the affair with, And it's possible
he doesn't fully understand because he didn't innately fully understand,
and you didn't fully explain it because you're hesitant to
(25:29):
talk about your feelings or your psychology, as it were.
You're not fully sharing enough with him in order to
see whether he can get it.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I feel like when I have opened up, it was
probably twinged with my anger about it, which turned him off.
You know, none of the kids were home, and we
were just yelling at each other. There were moments of like,
how much that hurt me?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I don't even mean how much this hurt me? But
let me tell you why this hurt me, because here's
my history with relationships and the fields that I carried
with me, and the feelings that I have and the
hesitancies I had. It's really explaining it to him in
a way that he grasped, not just saying I feel
blank without context.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
I see that. Yeah, I haven't really laid it out
fully like that.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
One of the things that really strikes me about your
description of meeting him was that it sounds like you
had been very lonely for the ten years before you
met him, And I think that in some ways you're
less lonely being in this family unit, but I think
in other ways you're equally lonely, and maybe in a
(26:41):
more painful way. And I see that because you've been
crying as you've been talking about some of this, And
it makes me wonder about something you wrote in your letter,
which was at one point you both said to each other,
if it weren't for this baby, we're not sure we
would be together. What did you both mean? And how
did that conversation go between the two of you? How
(27:02):
deep was that conversation.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
He's the one who would say that here and there.
Sometimes I'd be like, yeah, you're probably right.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Did you really feel that when you said, yeah, you're
probably right.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I honestly think unless he did something major deal breaker,
I probably would have stayed with the relationship because I
don't expect perfection in people. But it's funny that because
two or three days before I found out about him
talking to the A fair woman, it just been a
(27:33):
little bit stressful in the house. We were trying to
remodel the basement. Things were tense, Our baby was demanding,
and we were bickering, and we were sitting on the
couch on the day and he was like, I can
sense that you're not happy. We're not happy. Do you
ever wonder what it would be like to live apart,
but to be able to raise our baby as like friends.
(27:54):
And at that time I had kind of been feeling
fed up with just the stressors of life, from longing
for part time parenting days, longing for space, longing for privacy,
longing for time with my older son, who I feel
like I've really kind of lost in the shuffle with
the new baby. And so we kind of like fantasized about, like, well,
(28:19):
how would that look like if we split up and
just tried to make a positive co parenting situation, and
then you know it kind of slept on it and
he came back, which is true to him being kind
of fickle, Like I don't want that at all, just
the daily comfort of having your presence in the house,
just reflecting on when I was single, how lonely it
(28:42):
was when the kids weren't here. Just having your companionship
means everything to me, and I don't want that. Please
let's work this out. And then, you know, a couple
of days later when I found found out about the messaging,
which now when I put the pieces together, I'm like,
I wonder if he was saying that, so a given
permission to have the affair you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
The timing does not.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Seem to like, did you have a chance to tell
him after you slept on it how you felt about
that discussion from the night before He came and said, no,
I don't want that, but where were you and did
your voice where you were?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
And I honestly felt the same way when I really
sit and remember what it was like when my older
son wasn't there, just how lonely it was in the house.
It was just myself, you know, and just having the
presence of people.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Jennifer, I think there's a difference between having the presence
of people, meaning their physical presence they're in the house,
and having a connection with people. Yeah, and I don't
know that you have had the connection that you're looking for.
I think there have been moments when you might have
felt like you had some semblance of it, But I'm
(29:59):
not sure that the two of you have that yet.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
It's hard to say. I feel like when we hang
out they do connect with them. He is open with
me about, you know, how he feels about his family
and how he feels about us.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I don't know that he's open with you about how
he feels about the two of you. Or it could
be that he's just confused, because he gives you a
lot of different messages about how he feels about you,
and so it could be that he's not being completely
open and so he compensates by kind of flipping back
and forth. Or it could be that he truly is
just confused and he doesn't have a filter, and so
(30:35):
he tells you what he's feeling in the moment without
considering how it might land on you and what the
effect would be on you of having to hear these
very contradictory messages from one night of hey, you know,
I'm thinking maybe we should live apart to oh, no,
I really don't want that, and then almost asking you
(30:57):
to stay with him, even though he was the one
who pose the idea.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, which is a replication of what happened in that
quick breakup that you know, he did it all by himself,
Like he did the breakup and the comeback by himself,
same thing here he does the potential theoretical breakup and
then coming back by himself. He goes through these movements,
but they don't include you.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, and it's hard, you know, it's only been six
months since then, right now, it feels like we're in
a great place, you know, and he's very affirming, like
I want you in my life. You're everything to me,
you know, you make this household run, You're You're the
one I want to be with. So I feel like
(31:39):
it's hard for me to reconcile the past with how
I feel right now, And I don't know going forward
how much to take into consideration the past, or should
I just keep building on what feels like a good
foundation right now.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Let's talk about something that's happening in the present, which
is that I think he had agreed to go to
therapy with you.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Correct, he hasn't pursued it, and I put myself on
a waiting list, but I haven't pursued it another place.
I literally just called one place, put myself on a
waiting list. It hasn't come to you, and neither of
us have pursued it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Why do you think you're not pursuing it, Jennifer, you're not.
Why do you think you are not?
Speaker 3 (32:22):
That's a good question. I don't know. Part of me's
scared to find out if there's anything else that I
don't know about. I'm scared to discover another lie because
I feel like if there was another lie, that that
would be the deal breaker. And then it's like all
these kids, like all these kids are involved.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
You keep talking about the kids, and I think that
prevents you from really looking at how difficult this would
be for you.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I guess a part of me is scared if his
true feelings came out, like, yeah, I love you, but
I'm not in love with you, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I'm also wondering if part of what you're scared about
is that you've said that your story is I'm the
one that never gets to keep the good guy, and
I think that's really led you in this case to
undervoice how you feel, what your needs are, what you want.
You come at things with him as I can't ask
for too much. I can't push for too much. If
(33:23):
it's very blatant, like you're about to have an affair again,
I'll leave. But anything short of that then I will
probably accept it because my story is I don't really
get fully what I want, so I can't ask for
too much. And I think it becomes a self fulfilling
prophecy where you're with someone who maybe can give you
what you want, but if you don't ask for it,
(33:43):
then you'll never know.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah, Yeah, that resonates with me. It's definitely some truth
in there.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I think the other truth is that you're worried that
a truth will come out from him that will be
very devastating to you. But maybe your other fear is
that your truth will come out, and if you went
to therapy, you might get more clear about what you
want and whether he is the person that meets those needs.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Yeah, that could be. Yeah, I feel so powerless in
a way because of my financial situation. I feel like
if I did uncover that this wasn't something that I
ultimately wanted, I'm stuck. You know.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Was that a discussion that you guys had when you decided, Okay,
there's the baby, I have to quit my job. But
if I do that, then I become very financially dependent,
and that scares me. What's something we can do, what's
an arrangement we can make? Did you have any of
that discussion with him?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah? He said he would upfront give me like ten
thousand dollars and help me get started if you break up.
If we went Yeah, and he's even talked talked about
I would buy a condo that you could live in
and you can pay rent to me.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
So why are you screwed? If he would take care of.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
That Right now, I'm only working part time. My older
son has gained a quality of life that I feel
like I don't know that I could give him.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
But you've also mentioned that you feel that your oldest
son got lost in the shuffle with you a little bit.
So he might get a quality of life and stuff,
but he might have lost a little bit of mum,
is what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Also, I feel that way. I don't know that my
son feels that way. It's hard to tell because he's fourteen.
You know, he's talking to one day and then the
next day he's like, I don't want anything to do
with you. I feel like he's had a good foundation,
good great childhood that I was able to provide for him.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
You gave him that.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yeah, and you know, his father is a good person.
He's got a lot of problems, but our extended family
is really involved and you know, set them to a
great school. He has lasting friendships and great experiences there.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Good.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
But then, Jennifer, you know you are not like screwed
in the sense of I truly don't have an option
because I cannot support myself and my son. There's extended
family support. You're not completely unable to do that.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I actually think that the one way that you are
trapped is emotionally. Ye that it's not logistically that you
are very trapped emotionally. Your old story keeps getting in
the way. Part of you says, wait, let me hold
on to my lifeline here. This is the only relationship
I've had that has worked in any way, shape or form,
(36:41):
even if it's not ideal, and I'm not going to
do anything to jeopardize that. To these two competing parts
of you, the one that says, my soul can't take this,
and the part that says, but I also can't live without.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
This, Yeah, that's true. And I don't know which one
in light of taking responsibility for your choices and you know,
putting aside yourself for the sake of family. It's not
our particular. I mean, the whole thing has just been
one big ball of suffering for her, and she's just
(37:17):
finally gained some stability, and it's like if for some
reason in the next year the rug gets pulled out again.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Hey, Jennifer, who pulled the rung out from under her
by having the affair.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, her father, But I wouldn't want that to further
damage her relationship to him, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
But he made a choice, and there are consequences to
that choice, and you're trying to protect him from the
consequences of his choice without protecting yourself. Yeah, and you're
also not protecting the relationship. You're leaving the relationship in
a very precarious place. It's dangerous to do what you're
(38:00):
doing because you're leaving the relationship very vulnerable to self destruction.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
For two reasons, Jennifer. Number one, because when you have
worries and fears and doubts that you don't want to
go to therapy to get in touch with, it means
that they're there in your head. They're going to get
activated and strongly. But the other thing is, it's okay
to say a factor in my decision is also going
(38:28):
to be not just my children, but his, because I
do feel a certain obligation towards the daughter. It's okay
to say that, as long as you also say, but
what is going to be in the equation very strongly
is what my needs are and what my feelings are.
My concern is that you are thinking about the daughter
(38:49):
before you even get to think about yeah, yourself in
some way.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, that's probably true. I feel like responsible and guilty
at the same time because we're the ones who messed
up by getting pregnant accidentally.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Take away that word accidentally. We're the ones who decided
to get pregnant without thinking about it. It wasn't accidental.
The more you can tell the truth about the two
of you and your story, the more you'll be able
to tell the truth about the two of you and
your story going forward. So the true story is I
was very seduced by this idea of having a baby
(39:24):
with him. He kept putting that idea in my head,
and I was seduced by it, and we both, as
responsible adults, didn't act responsibly. We made a decision. We
didn't voice that decision explicitly, but we made a decision
that we were going to have sex without birth control,
knowing that we could have a baby together. It's not
rocket science, it's.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Not yeah, it's you know. I guess Another part is
like if I learned my true feelings, then I'd actually
have to plan my life forward and my life has
always happened to me. I've never really designed my life,
(40:02):
so to speak.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
I would have to drive the car instead of just
being driven wherever somebody wants to take me or wherever
life takes me.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Is that not an appealing idea of you're driving the
car yourself rather than having to be taken to where
the driver wants to take you.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah, no, it is definitely.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
You know, it's a scary position for you because oh
it's my car. I have to drive it, and I
have to then be responsible for the decisions rather than
deal with what quote unquote happens. I understand it can
be scary, but I want you to really think a
lot about this idea of the liberation of it, the
potential security you can find in it, so.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
What to face. But I want to I want before
we start planning a wedding, I want to find that
out for myself.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Can you tell us a little bit about what things
were like for you growing up. I'm just curious where
this story came from.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Yeah, my parents are, they're still married. All my neighbors
were church friends, a lot of playing outside kids over
all the time, I would say, it's really happy childhood,
and then my teenage years we moved, and my teenage
years just felt like the family just splintered apart, like
(41:21):
everybody was kind of in their own rooms. There wasn't
a lot of involvement on my parents' part. In my
early twenties, I learned that my dad had an affair,
and it was probably around the time when we moved.
So I don't think my mom has fully gotten over that.
(41:42):
She's just depressed.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Who told you about the affair? You said you didn't
find out until you were in your twenties.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yeah, my mom just blurted it out one night. It
was on the eve of my older sister getting married,
and my younger sister and my parents and I were
sitting at the table after a rehearsal dinner at night,
and I don't even remember how it came up, but
she got real angry and she grabbed a knife and
she said, why don't you tell them about the affair,
(42:08):
And so my dad like confessed this affair that happened
when we were children. I don't know. I just always
felt like she uses that to like blame him for
her unhappiness, even though they don't talk about it and
their life is fine.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
It must have been a big deal though, because you moved. Yeah,
it sounds like the family had a very integrated experience
in that community and then all of a sudden, the
whole family moved, and you guys didn't really know why.
But what were you told at the time, Since you
didn't know that that was the reason, it.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Was always just painted like Mom's not happy, she wants
to live in a newer house. After we knew about
the affair, Mom said, yeah, I had to get out
of that neighborhood. I just needed to have a new start.
And it kind of felt like it was my older
sister and my mom on one side, then me and
my dad and my younger sister on another side, Like
we were more free spirited ones and they were the
(43:04):
judging kind of not okay with that.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
You might have been on team dad when you were
a kid, but right now you're replicating your mom's footsteps
in the sense that there was an affair, she stayed,
she wasn't happy. It's unclear to me that your parents
ever did the work to fully repair things. And here
you are, so you are forewarned by your mum's experience
that you have to do the work to repair, otherwise
(43:31):
you might end up like your mom, being sad in
your room, feeling lonely even though the people around.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
That's a great point. Yeah, and you can see that.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
And I keep thinking about your story about how here
we go again. No man is going to want to
stay with me. And I think that when you grew
up in a house where there was an unresolved affair,
and what I mean by unresolved is it sounds like
it didn't really repair it, and so it still lives
very much in the space between them. Feel that in
(44:00):
a household you might not know what it was. You
didn't find out till later, but even now as an adult,
so you found out twenty years ago, it still lives
in your fami.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
It does because I feel like my mom holds back
loving my dad.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
It hasn't been repaired. You can't have empathy for her
in some way because it's so scary to go there,
because I think you see yourself in her a little bit.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Yeah, you're right. I think that's probably right.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Just because your parents didn't repair what they needed to
repair and their story is kind of stagnant. I wonder
if you can move to a different place and create
a wholly original story that reflects more of the truth
of who you are and your experience, like the story
of I can't leave because I wouldn't be able to
raise my son. Well, you raised him quite well under
(44:47):
the circumstances. Yeah, And then I imagine the kids in
the household. You're so concerned about their wellbeing, and I
imagine the kids in the household living the way you
guys did, which was when you moved as t you said,
things shifted. The household felt totally different. And I think
that the kids in this household will sense it too,
(45:07):
that there is something between the two of you. Even
if you try to put on a good front, they're
going to sense it. And that's why I think not
going to therapy and not dealing with this and not
finding out who the two of you are in relation
to both each other and yourselves, is dangerous, not only
for the two of you, but for the whole family.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
You're absolutely right. Yeah, you're absolutely right, And that's all
it was.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
For me.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
It was like a new mom and they weren't happy.
Now I was saying anything but physical expressions. Say everything you.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Know right, and you might even be able to model
something for you, Maam, about speaking up, more about asking
for things, but for you to really take over the
driving and make sure that you steer the relationship to
either a place that is good for all or not.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I just want to check in with you. You were crying
a lot during the session, and when we started talking
about this idea that maybe your story needs a revision,
that maybe it's not so accurate, that maybe you're replaying
something that really isn't yours, you started smiling, you started
sitting up in your chair, your whole demeanor changed, and
(46:24):
so I just want to care how you're feeling about
where we are in the conversation right now.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
I feel like I know what I need to do,
even though I do sense myself like, no, don't look
at that too much, like there is an acknowledgment more
that I have some needs that are not being met
and I don't know if they can be met. But
(46:53):
I feel more of a clarity about the story that
I tell myself self fulfilling prophecy. I feel some hope.
I've been trying to deny this sense of unrest in
the relationship. I've been trying to talk it away and
(47:13):
rationalize it and it feels good to know that I
have to look at it and have to look at
it with him, So I feel I feel pretty positive,
even though it's terrifying in a way.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
So, Jennifer, we have some advice for you. We were
thinking about your story and your story being the one
you tell yourself, and we want you to write your
story differently. Specifically, we want you to go through all
the major moments in your life that happened, especially with relationships,
(48:00):
and describe them in a very active as opposed to
a passive voice. So you didn't get pregnant by accident
and you chose not to took birth control would be
the active voice. You didn't just settle for Dan. You
were lonely and you chose to be with him because
you thought you would be less lonely. You did a
(48:23):
great job with your son because he's You put him
in a great school, You allowed him to have a
lot of friends in a very big support system, and
he sounds like he's really thriving. You decided to take
classes and started taking computer classes creative writing for both
personal and professional enrichment. So everything that you talk about
(48:47):
is your choice. You own the responsibility and it's a
very active voice, and we want you to literally write
it as an essay. This is your story. Okay, right,
every time you write something, go back and make sure
it's fully in the active voice.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
Okay. Sounds great.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
And I think that a part of you hasn't felt
like you could have your driver's license. So it's time
to get your driver's license. And then as a newly
licensed driver who has that freedom and that independence, we
would like you to make sure that you are guided
by your internal GPS in terms of wherever you go.
(49:31):
That means that you've said very clearly what your soul
can and can't handle. And we think you should drive
yourself to therapy with Dan because we think that in
this new story, you can handle your truth and you
can handle his truth. And I think that when you
(49:51):
go back and revise your old story, you'll see that
you handled a lot. It might have been painful, it
might have been difficult, but you did handle it, and
we think you would handle it much more smoothly now
because you have a driver's license.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
I like that it's a good analogy.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
And we think that knowing his truth and knowing your
truth and being able to talk about it openly will
lead you to the destination that you want to go to,
and that might be a destination where you create a
really strong marriage with Dan. It might be a destination
that looks different from that, but it will be a
(50:26):
better destination than the kind of waystation you're stuck in
right now.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
I like that. Yeah, that sounds good. I'm looking forward
to doing that. Actually good.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Well, it's one more thing. Given Dan has been defensive
about the therapy, we would likely to present it to
him in the following way. Look, I was thinking about
my parents, and I was thinking how they never really
fully dealt with the trust issue, and how because they
never did, it hovered between them for forty years. And
(51:00):
I don't want that for us. I want us to
deal with it so we can move past it. That's
the goal of doing therapy, to be able to deal
And if we don't talk about it with someone, it'll
hover and that won't be good for the relationship or
for either of us, and that's not something I want.
So I'm going to make an appointment for therapy and
I'd like us to go and talk.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
That's a very conscious way of saying it. Yeah, I
like that.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
I just want to address the kids piece too, because
I know you're both very concerned about the kids, and
I want to assure you that kids do best when
there's not some secret hovering in the household. You know
that from personal experience, and I think that you're so
worried that if you go to therapy it will hurt
the kids. If you go to therapy, it will help
(51:48):
the kids.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
That feels good to have that affirmed.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, And just having tension between the parents, you may
think you're doing a good job of covering that.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Very perceptive, that's true teenagers especially.
Speaker 3 (52:02):
Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate this session.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
You're very welcome, and let us know how it goes.
Speaker 4 (52:09):
We'll do.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
This exercise of rewrite your story is a powerful exercise
that really changes how you see yourself and how you
see your history when you revise it to focus on
the action, on the choices, on the agency as opposed
to the pacivity. And I'm hoping it has that impact.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
And I think it's sometimes the reason that people are
afraid to see themselves as the protagonist in their story
is because of the subplot in the story, which is
I don't trust myself, nobody loves me. I'm not good enough.
And so once you start to rewrite the entirety of
the story, you start to see, wait a minute, I
am the protagonist, and I am very capable and competent,
(52:58):
and I get to make different choices this time.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
The example of I chose to not use birth control,
I didn't just accidentally get pregnant is a great example
how you're talking about the same event, You're saying it
in a realistic way. You can't rewrite your story in
a fake way. It has to sound true to your
own ears. And I chose not to use birth control
is true and will sound true to her and is
(53:22):
very different than I accidentally got pregnant. So it's a
great example of that pivot. It's very different messaging about
who you are and how you function.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
Yeah, and I would say the last thing is that
she wants honesty from Dan, But I think first she's
going to need to be honest with herself, and she's
rewriting her story without judgment. There's no shame here. It's
I made some decisions. Some of them were really good decisions.
Some of them were decisions I might make differently, but
they were mine, and I'm going to be more intentional
(53:55):
about the decisions that I make now that I have
my driver's license. So I'm really excited to say how
she rewrites this story and what that does for her
in terms of reframing what she wants to do in
this moment. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.
We'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (54:27):
So we heard back from Jennifer. We sent her to
remind you to driving school. Let's see what she picked up.
Speaker 3 (54:34):
Hi, Laurie and Guy, I'm calling to give you an
update on the hamewark that you gave me. I had
the therapy talk with my fiance and it went really well.
Speaker 4 (54:43):
I used your.
Speaker 3 (54:45):
Advice on framing it in the context of my parents'
unresolved issues and how I didn't want distrust and resentment
to build over the years, and he was very open
to going to therapy and actually seemed like it's something
he really wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (55:02):
He thought it was a good idea that we do
that before.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
We get married, and we agreed to talk about everything
that's happened over the past year, with the indiscrestions on
Instagram and the situation of adjusting to the household with
the kids and the time where we had talked about
living separately.
Speaker 4 (55:23):
So I'm excited about that. As far as the other
part of the.
Speaker 3 (55:26):
Homework goes with the writing assignment, where I write in
the active, I actually found it very empowering. Especially it
kind of gave me a sense of security knowing that
I have such decision making power in my own life.
Silly as that sounds, but it did bring up some
shame for me. I had this sense of why didn't
(55:46):
I think of this sooner? And how different could crossroads
of my life been had I been more decisive and
not just sort of went with the flow or deferred
to others around me as far as how to make
my decisions. I wound up thinking of my mom while
I was writing it and looking back on my life,
and how I wished that she had used more of
(56:08):
her voice with me, shared her guidance.
Speaker 4 (56:11):
I feel like I was a little bit left.
Speaker 3 (56:14):
To the wind in my teenage years by my parents,
feel like they were both kind of disappeared in a way.
So I've decided to go to individual therapy as well
to deal with these unresolved issues. I'm looking forward to
the therapy with my fiance I'm scared of what might
come up, mainly if there has.
Speaker 4 (56:32):
Been another indiscretion.
Speaker 3 (56:34):
But the good thing is that I'm wanting to face
the truth whatever way it is, and I feel ready
to be more in the driver's seat in my life.
So I just want to really thank you guys. I
really appreciate it. It's helped me so much, So thank you.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
I think the theme here is that it's not what
you say, it's how you say, and it's how you
convey sentiments to your partner when you're trying to say
something difficult, and it's how you frame things in your
own mind when you're telling yourself your own story, and
changing that language can make a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
So many times people say, well I can't get my
partner to go do therapy with me, and a lot
of it has to do with how they're presenting it
and what the purpose of it is. And I think
really making it personal about Listen. I saw this firsthand
with my parents when it didn't resolve this, and I
care too much about us to have that happen to us.
(57:34):
He really responded to that, and I think that going forward,
she's going to be much more aware that she doesn't
have to just let life happen to her. That she
gets to choose which direction she wants to go in,
and I think that that will bode well both for
her individually and for her in the marriage.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Being in the driver's seat always feels better.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
You can also find us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb
dot com and you can follow me on Twitter at
(58:19):
lorigottlib one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com and on Twitter and
Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd like
to discuss with us, Big Osnool, email us at Lorianguy
at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast Fairygodmother Katie Kuric.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
Next week, a man struggles with guilt over how much
he should take care of his aging parents despite their
abuse growing up. He called us names.
Speaker 5 (59:01):
You told us we were worthless, you know, like the
physical abuse, like spitting in my face.
Speaker 2 (59:05):
Like he's just like, I don't remember that.
Speaker 5 (59:07):
I was just like, Okay, well, I don't even need
to try anymore because you're going to continue with this behavior,
and I just I don't want to be part of that.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
THEO Therapist is a production of iHeart Radio.
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