January 28, 2025 • 59 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week we’re in session with Melissa, who has trouble identifying her emotions until they all pour out at once, leaving her kids and husband scared and confused. We help Melissa to get in touch with her feelings and use them to form stronger, healthier relationships with her family--and herself.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
a woman comes to us for help connecting with her husband,
her children, and her own emotions.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of
saying he loves me, like I have a hard time
saying I love you back.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:08):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. So
hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do we have this week
at our box?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, today we have a letter about trauma and its
lasting effects on us and our relationships as adults. And
it goes like this, Deotherapists. I am a mum of
four boys, and I woke up to my emotions about
four years ago. I was super emotionally repressed before this,
and I'm learning that everything is about staying present to emotions.
(01:48):
My issue is that I have a really difficult time
being there for my children through their difficult emotions. As
much as I know that being there for them and
accepting their hard emotions is one of the biggest gifts
I can give them, one of unconditional love and acceptance,
I just can't do it. I turn myself off and disconnect,
and I find that I need to be away from
(02:09):
them when they are having meltdowns. I disengage and even
dissociate to a certain extent. I feel that I'm failing
them by not being there for them emotionally when they
need me most. I think part of this may have
to do with my not being okay with my own
negative emotions. I've done a tremendous amount of self help
work and work with a few different therapists to help
(02:29):
me heal some childhood trauma. I feel bad that I
can't engage and dive in all the way, and that
really limits the depths of my relationships. It's like having
the knowledge, but emotionally not being there. Thanks Melissa.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
So this is a really good example of what happened
when you haven't had the experience of tolerating and embracing
your own emotions, and they get triggered when other people
around you have big am emotions and they're not shy
about it, especially kids. Kids are not going to edit
their emotions until they learn from the outside world that
(03:08):
maybe they should. And I think what she's worried about
is that somehow she's sending that message to them.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I agree, and I think that she clearly loves her boys,
and so I'm sure it must be really difficult for
her that she feels disconnected from them in this specific way.
And it's obviously going to be difficult for them as well,
un as she can change it.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, and I think she's right when she talks about
healing some childhood trauma, because when she talks about dissociating,
that's what happens with trauma, is that the emotions, whether
they're yours or there's someone's around you feel so big
and so scary that you just don't want to be there,
(03:47):
and so you emotionally remove yourself from the situation. And
that's what she does. So let's go talk to her
and find out a little bit more and see how
we can help.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
You're listening to deal with the therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll
be back after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and
I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist. Hi Melissa,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Hi, Hi Melissa, Hi there.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So we read your letter. You mentioned that you awoke
to your emotions four years ago. Can you tell us
a little bit about what happened then and what this
awakening was about?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Sure, So, four years ago, I was a very emotionally
not developed person. I was feeling things and feeling overwhelmed
by them. But I had no way of putting words
to them. And then my husband and I separated for
over a year, and during that year I did a
lot of self growth, self healing work that made me
(04:51):
really really aware of what was going on and gave
me a whole dictionaryan language for emotions.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
You and your husband got back together after a year.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Did that have something to do with the fact that
you were feeling cut off from your emotions?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I think in all relationships there's two parts to making
something work. I wasn't aware of what I needed. I
wasn't able to express what I needed, and I think
that made it very difficult for my husband to know.
Because he's a good person and wants to do good
things for me, he just has no clue. He's not
able to and to it that himself. So with that said,
(05:32):
my husband and two of my children are on the
autistic spectrum high functioning autism. So I realized that about
my husband about maybe six years ago, and I have
done a lot of, you know, research, and immersed myself
in that world.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
How long have you been married and how old are
the four boys?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
So I've been married eighteen years and my boys are
seventeen twelve six and one.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
You said that you had trouble with their difficult, big
emotions when they have them. But tell us first how
you deal with your own.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Oh, that's a big question. I started feeling them so before,
I guess a couple of years ago. I was not
allowing myself to feel them. I shut myself down. I
was kind of like in survival mode. I tend to
sit with them a lot more now, so I acknowledge them.
Sometimes I have conversations with them. Mostly I think I'm
(06:32):
in touch with them through my writing. So I write
what I'm feeling. In the beginning, it was very difficult
to figure it out. Like I would have a like
a dictionary of feeling words, and I would know I'm
feeling something, and I would like just scruffle through it
and try to figure out what it is I'm feeling.
And I'd go through all the words and like, oh
my god, I'm feeling lonely and I'd laugh and cry.
(06:53):
I figure it out heartbroken, and so I have words
for them.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
There's an actual term for what you're describing. It's called alexiphymia,
and it means that you don't have a vocabulary for
what you're feeling. You don't know how to articulate what
you're feeling, and so sometimes with little kids, we give
them a chart sort of like the primary colors red, yellow, blue,
(07:20):
It's happy, mad, sad, right, just to even have a
place to start with. And I imagine that if you
had no experience with your feelings, that you would have
to learn a whole new vocabulary.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, for sure, it's like learning a new language. And
it's so beautiful and so overwhelming, and it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
We call that emotional literacy.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Right, And I've realized now I'm an extremely emotional person,
and I'll tell you how much I'm feeling anything. So
in the beginning, I thought, you know, a lot of
the lack of emotional connect with my husband was because
he's on his back. But then I realized my part
is was I was not in touch at all with
what I was feeling. And you know, I put too
(08:07):
much of the blame on him. I really did.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
You said a few minutes ago that you were in
survival mode. What were you trying to survive?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
I would think I was just trying to survive day
to day life. I had a very rough childhood. My
marriage was very shaky from the beginning, and I have
four kids and some of them are very high needs,
and I was just trying to keep it together, just
to function, to work, to eat, to feed myself, and
(08:42):
I wasn't able to do so so well that self
care wasn't amazing. And then as I developed with the
emotional stuff, I became so much better at taking care
of myself.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Can you tell us a little bit about the rough childhood?
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah, I guess I didn't realize growing up. My father
had Asperger's very very like extreme rigid, and my mom
is from a broken home. She was putting faster care
as a child, and none of them had any emotional intelligence.
There was definitely a lot of neglect going around, a
lot of emotional abuse, some physical abuse.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
When is it you started to realize that your childhood
wasn't the normal childhood in the sense that it had
these challenges, because when we grow up, we don't know
if what we're experiencing is common or not. Necessarily, when
did you start to get how different your upbringing was.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I think it started like in my twenties. I noticed
things were off about it. I started seeing other families
are different that fathers could be involved with their with
their kids. I think as a child, I knew something
was off. I just didn't know what.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Can you give us an example of something that felt
off to you in retrospect?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
My mother would have rages and become violent or just
scream crazy stuff like I think the last time, maybe
when I was about nineteen, she was complaining about my
father not giving her enough money to do shopping, and
I said something that nice to my dad, like stopping
such a stingy person, or you know, something a child
(10:26):
probably shouldn't say to a parent. But I kind of
left the room, and all of a sudden, she came
behind me and started like punching me in my head
and like and just you know, chasing me and saying
I'm going to kill you. Things like that where they're
just I think anyone would really know that's off. So
I think I've had to learn a lot on how
to separate between you know, what's her and what's me.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
You said you've been in therapy over these past years.
How much work have you done on trying to really
understand the experience you had and as a child through
the eyes of someone who then does recognize what was
acceptable and what wasn't. How much self compassion have you
(11:10):
developed for the experiences that you went through.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
The first therapist I saw her for many, many years,
and she was like one of the CBT model kinds,
and I don't think it really worked for me because
she never reflected back. So I never had a sense
of normalcy from her either, which means if I described
something crazy, she wouldn't necessarily GOHI that's absolutely nuts. She
(11:38):
would say, you know, how can we reframe that? Or
it really didn't help me. I think about four years
ago is when I really started looking at what happened
and seeing it and working on the self compassion. I
think that has been key.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
I think what you're really talking about is what we
call emotional validation. And I think you were really craving
that because when you were a girl, you must have
wondered at some point is this typical? Or is this
my fault? Or is something going on with my parents?
And so you didn't get that emotional validation of yes,
(12:17):
this is not okay, Yes this is not about you,
Yes this is something that's going on with your parents.
And so when you just told us the story of
your mother had this reaction of where she started hitting
your head. I don't know if you saw our faces,
but we just empathized so much with the pain of
(12:38):
that and the confusion and also the sense of betrayal
that your parents are supposed to be the people who
protect you and yet you're afraid of them. And if
you don't get the validation, it's hard to know what
to do with your own feelings when you have them.
So when you said I'm actually a very emotional person,
we're all very emotional People's human is you just aren't
(13:02):
used to feeling your emotions.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yeah, I hear that. I totally hear that.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Tell us a little bit, then, what happens with your sons?
You mentioned meltdowns in your letter. Could you give us
an example of the kinds of situations that you find
yourself in with your sons that you have a hard
time dealing with emotionally, that you disconnect.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yesterday, my son came home and he wanted to hop
on the computer, and I said, we're gonna help mommy
for a little bit first, and you know, although I
know it's unexpected, he had a complete meltdown. He's twelve.
So you wouldn't expect him to lie on the floor crying, screaming.
It was extremely loud, and I don't know what happens
(13:48):
to me from loudness, but I can't manage it, like
I'm very sensitive to noise. And then the end, I said,
you know, like you have ten seconds to just get
yourself to your room because you cannot stay here and
scream while I'm cleaning with your other brother. And then
I went out on the stroller with the baby and
we went for a walk just to get a break
from the noise. But I'm not there with him. I'm
(14:09):
not there with him in the moment.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
You said you have two sons who are on the spectrum?
Is that one of the suns?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
No, it's not. He's probably one of my easier ones.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
That reminds me a little bit of what happened with
your parents, where they would have these very exaggerated reactions
to things and you had to sit there and think, well,
is this typical? Is this not typical? And I think
the same thing with your son. You said, well, he's twelve,
(14:42):
so I don't think he should be doing that, But
at the same time, you're not really sure. I think
that's sort of a replication of something that you've experienced
your whole life, which is, how do I know what
is typical acceptable?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Totally relate to that? That really resonates.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
The example he gave Melissa is one in which your
son had an unusual reaction. I'm curious about what happens
in the regular life experiences when the boys feel sad
or upset or disappointed or rejected. What happens in moments
like that.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
I mean, my six year old might come and say
his one year old brother smashes tower, he bolt, and
he's really, like, really angry and really upset about it.
I don't think I typically will respond with a lot
of empathy. I'll say I'm sorry, but I don't really
feel it, quite honestly, And you know, I might also
(15:43):
shift some other responsibility to him, like you know, your
brother's up right now and he can reach it, maybe
he should be doing it on a different surface or
in a different room with the door closes or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
What happens inside of you that kind of makes you disengage,
Because the response I just heard was very dis engaged.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I think because there's so much screaming and noise accompanied
with it. It's really hard for me to even hear
what he needs.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
But what actually happens in your body? Can you close
your eyes for a minute and tell us what happens
when you go back and think about that.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
I think I cringe, like at the noise, and I
feel like I free somewhat. And I think if the
noise level is high enough, I can't even think, like
I can't figure out what I need to do, you know.
I like if my kids screaming for food and they're
(16:41):
hungry right now and I'm trying to get something, I'll
open the fridge and not be able to get anything
out because I'm not really functioning. I'm not really able
to think, like, what is it I need to do
next in order to help the child. I'm just more frozen.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So the noise really makes a big difference to you.
There's about the view that knows, Yeah, I can't spend
a second going oh, I'm sorry, honey, and before you
go to but maybe put it on the table because
you can reach the younger brother. Is that something that
comes to you in hindsight or is that something you
recognize even in a moment, but feel frozen because of
the noise.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I think it's easier in hindsight, but many times it
is in the moment, but I'm frozen, or because I
feel like almost a repulsion to the child, like just
get away from me, Just go away, leave me alone.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Their pain is causing you so much distress when we
feel pain, and emotional pain registers in the brain very
very similarly to physical pain, and our response to physical
pain is often to lash out in anger, and our
response to emotional pain can be very similar sometimes. And
so I'm assuming that at some of those moments their
(17:50):
distress is triggering a lot of pain in you. Is
that something that you've realized.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I didn't realize, but it sounds true.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So then it's about you being able to manage your
pain as well as theirs, because that's what keeps getting triggered.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I don't think I could do both at the same time.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
The question is whether you're doing either of them, because
it sounds like when you freeze, then you're not dealing
with yours or theirs.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Correct them not.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
In response to threats, emotional threats, physical threats, there's fight,
flight and freeze. So a lot of people know about
fight or flight. In an argument like with a partner,
for example, but especially with the history of trauma, freeze
(18:43):
is very common, and I think what you're doing is
you're going straight into freeze. And so as guy was saying,
it's hard for you when you're frozen to manage your
pain or your child's pain. You're standing in front of
the refrigerator with the door open, unable to move. And
I think that one of the things that would be
(19:04):
really helpful is to understand a little bit more about
how in the last four years since you've had this awakening,
you've come to manage your own emotions.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
That's a big question. I think I do come to
myself with a lot more self compassion, more like as
a friend than as an enemy or a judge. Let's
say I goof up, I know, messed up something, and
I just put my friends in there and say, you know,
if she messed up, how would I feel? And I
would have a lot more compassion. So sometimes that helps.
(19:39):
I engage in a lot of self soothing practices just
to help me in general, with hot bath, hot shower, meditate,
just physical things that I'm doing to calm myself.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Do you notice in that moment when there's a lot
of noise that it feels a lot like the noise
when you were growing up, when you were being yelled at,
when your parents were having big reactions to things. Does
it feel reminiscent of that. Sometimes what kids do in
(20:14):
that moment is they dissociate. They take themselves somewhere else
in their minds. And you mentioned in your letter that
sometimes you dissociate with the kids. Does that feel familiar
to you.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I haven't put the two and two together. It feels
more if I had to put a word, like like
being in trouble, like being on the hot seat.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
What's the part that feels like being on the hot seat?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I guess when I hear screaming, I feel like I'm
supposed to do something with it.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So danger it feels like danger.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
It does feel like danger.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yes, Because when your parents would get very loud, you
did feel like you were in trouble because they told
you that you were the cause of their pain. Yes,
And so every time you hear that loudness, you feel
like I'm being blamed for this other person's pain, even
(21:15):
though I'm not quite sure that I'm responsible for it.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And now when your kids come to you and they
get very loud, like, look what happened. He knocked down
my tower. Even though he's not blaming you, he's coming
to you because he's really upset. You hear it as
and you, mom should have done something about this, and you,
mom should have prevented him from knocking down my tower,
(21:42):
and you, mom need to take away my anger and
my pain at this, and you are to blame. I
think that's the message that you're hearing from him.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah, that sounds true.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
When you have these exchanges and you freeze, what happens afterwards?
When you unfreeze? Do you do any kind of repair
work with your son about it later on?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I don't think I do most of the times, unless
I like yell at the kid to just go away.
I might apologize later I'm sorry I yelled at you.
I shouldn't have done that.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
But you don't go back and say, do you want
to talk more about how frustrating it is when you're
building something and your brother comes and ruins it. You
don't go back and try and talk to them about
it when they're calmer, when you're karmo, when they're not shouting,
when you can think, I do not.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
What do you think would happen if you did, I
think they would explode again. I feel like it's going
to dredge it up again for them and maybe for me.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
So the feeling you have is that they will not
be able to control their emotions, even if they're calm
in the moment, even if it's after the thing actually happened,
that any discussion of something that's activating or upsetting, they
will lose control. They will get loud, that you will freeze,
and that whole cycle will happen. Yeah, but if that's
(23:09):
not entirely true, what if they can talk about it
when they're calmer and they're a little more removed and
have more perspective. Do you think you'd be able to
have that kind of conversation with them if they were calmer.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Oh, I think I could. I think I just have
to be patient, you know, to wait for them to
completely calm down, and then to bring it up again.
I guess be brave enough to go back into the
arena because.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
The paradox of it is, and I think this might
have been your experience too, that when your parent doesn't
give you that emotional validation, it makes you get louder
because you're trying to get something from them. They didn't
hear it apparently the first time. They didn't get it
the first time. So I think the way things happen
(23:56):
now with you freezing and then being loud up this cycle,
when in fact, if you approach them once they were
calm and you will calm as well, what you would
be pulling out of them would be something calmer that,
in time would help them keep the lid perhaps on
getting too loud when things happen, because they'd have a
(24:18):
little bit more of the assurance that Mom can hear
us even if we're not loud, and especially perhaps if
we're not.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I think that would be great.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Can you tell us a little bit more about the marriage?
You split up for a year, you got back together.
What has it been like since you got back together?
What has changed that has made it work better for
both of you and particularly in terms of the emotional connection.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
So since we've got back what has changed, I feel
is mostly on my part is the way I communicate,
which means if I need something, I need to take
a shower now, and I need you to watch the
children while I take the shower. Before the breakup, I
think I would not have been able to say it
that way. I just would have been I need a shower,
and he'd say later and then forget later, and I
(25:08):
would just explode that I need a shower at some point.
So I think being able just to verbalize what I
need and just managing expectations on my part, expecting my
husband to come with a whole boatload of empathy isn't
really realistic, and part of it really isn't. Again, he
had no modeling, you know as well. For that. I
feel like I am happier, but not because he's, you know,
(25:31):
stepping up and meeting my needs. It's because I'm stepping
up a meeting my needs. I'm getting much better at
self care, taking a lot of time for myself because
I need a lot of quiet time just to be
by myself.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
About that. By the way, how much are the five
guys in the house aware that noise is really difficult
for mom? Your husband? Is he clear about it or not?
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I think he is aware that it bothers me, but.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
That's putting it way too mildly. Because it bothers you
means it's a little annoying, but you can manage it
makes you freeze. It really activates you, it triggers you.
And I'm wondering if he's clear enough about the fact
that he could be useful by paying attention to the
noise level in the house and stepping in, and that
(26:25):
that would be a very helpful duty as a co
parent and as a husband on his part. Do you
think he's clear enough that he can actually add value
there more than he might be at the moment.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
I think I'd have to verbalize it and express it
in that way that I really need him to step
up and help me with that. I find sometimes when
I do express my overwhelm, he can get judgmental about it.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Well, he'll tell me that it's not normal, or that
other people aren't like that, or I really should get
help for that to deal with it a little better.
It's not empathy.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I find that when somebody has a sensitivity that one
of the best responses you can have when somebody says, well,
you're sensitive, is to say, yes, I am. I have
a sensitivity. That's why I'm asking for your help to
kind of own the sensitivity rather than have to apologize
for it or feel that it's something that you need
(27:24):
to fix.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I do own it, and I am very honest about
being sensitive to many things. I do find that it
turns judgmental where it's like, this is your issue, you
need to get help for that.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
When you say that he's framing this as your issue.
Did the two of you when you split up go
to couple's therapy together. I'm a little bit unclear about
who initiated the split up, what caused it, and then
what did the two of you do to try to
make things different so that you could come back to other.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Okay, so before this the split up, we saw many
marriage counselors. Many of the times my husband would stop
after four six sessions and say, you know, and now
I know what I'm supposed to do, so I just
need to do it. Until then there's no point in continuing.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Was it your idea to go to counseling?
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I absolutely pushed it. It was, you know, it was
pretty much a thread over has had many times where
he'd start, stop, start, stop, in and out all the time,
but never voluntarily saying, hey, maybe we should get some help.
So what I did find helpful was during the split up,
somebody had recommended a marriage coach and it was very
(28:40):
different from counseling, but it definitely was counseling. We worked
with that person for maybe a year, just over a year,
and she was incredible and skilled, and she was the
one that helped me wake up to my emotions.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
What happened between you and your husband during that time
in terms of getting closer? What did he learn about you?
And what did you learn about him?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
I learned to be more vulnerable to him, to let
him have space to be there for me as a husband.
I think he did step up to the plate to
a certain extent, maybe not as much as I would
have liked. I do think him moving back was premature.
I felt like I was pressured into it and I
(29:26):
wasn't ready by him. I was pressured by him and
a little bit by the marriage coach.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Did your husband want to move back because he expressed
missing you?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
No, he wanted to move back for other reasons. I
think he was very shamed that a separation, I guess,
and you know the circles where he's from, divorce is
very frowned upon. He's from a country that just doesn't
support that kind of stuff. I think he felt maybe
like a failure. He felt rejected. There were many things
(30:01):
he was feeling.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
You say you'd think he felt meaning, you're guessing or
he was able to articulate those to you.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
He was able to articulate, maybe not directly, like he
was saying I was always afraid I'd get married one
day and it would never work out, or things like
that where I could kind of guess that he was
fearing rejection.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
But he never said I miss you.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
You know what he said, I miss you. But again,
with people in the spectrum, there's usually no voice, fluctuation,
or feeling behind it. He may have meant it. I'm
not saying I felt it.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
I just want to say one thing about people on
the spectrum that I think there's this misconception that they
don't feel, and they absolutely feel, and maybe they don't
express it well, and that is their challenge. So when
you say there was no emotion in his voice when
he said I miss you, that does not mean that
(31:05):
he did not miss you. It means it might have
sounded a bit mechanical or robotic in terms of the tone.
But I think that you are very invested in this
idea that because he's on the spectrum, that he doesn't
have feelings, and that just not true. He has feelings,
(31:27):
he doesn't know what to do with them or how
to articulate them. And I think that you too, actually
have more in common than you realize. And the way
that this has been portrayed in your marriage, especially since
the emotional awakening, has been that you're the one who
knows how to feel and he doesn't know how to feel.
(31:47):
And I think that it's something to consider that he
does know how to feel, but like you, he doesn't
know how to express it. And I think that there's
no coincidence that the two of you ended up together
in the first place.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Yeah, I agree with you that one. I think it
was also I was questioning where he was coming from.
So although he may say, you know, I miss you,
it may be like, hey, I'm not going to have
a place to live next month, like I really need
to move in. I was unsure as to which one
it was that was pushing him saying I miss you.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Right, And it could be lots of things like the
logistical piece as well as the emotional piece. But do
you notice that you didn't ask.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
No, I didn't ask.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
I judged right, and both of you do that to
each other.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Another thing to keep in mind with people on the
spectrum is that they often can miss emotional cues. And
so you're smiling, tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yes, they definitely will the emotional cues, social cues, physical cues,
every cue.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
That.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, I take it from that that you've put a
lot of cues out there and many of them did
not come back. And when they miss them again, another
misconceptionist that they ignore them. But to ignore something, it
has to show up on your radar. And often what
happens is it doesn't show up on the radar. So
it's not ignoring, it's literally missing, not seeing. And I'm
(33:27):
glad you know that. I mean, you know that enough
to smile at it. So I'm glad you know that,
because otherwise you can equally misjudge the lack of response
is not caring when that's not the case. It might
be caring.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
He's so frustrated by the way that noise triggers you
because it doesn't trigger him in the same way, And
you're so frustrated that he can't read these cues because
you can read them very easily. And I think that
the reason that we're talking about your marriage even though
you wrote about your children, Is that what the two
of you do in practice together will help you so
(34:01):
much with what you do and what you practice with
your children.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, I'm sure there are opportunities where your husband passes
by just as the baby is knocking down the tower
of the six year old, or whatever the comparable situation
would be with any of the other boys, and he's
actually the first parent on the scene. Does he just
keep walking? Does he intervene? What are his parenting efforts
with the boys?
Speaker 3 (34:26):
I don't think he's an effective parent in terms of
stopping it. He might say, well, it's a baby, so
just let him smash it down. He might like push
his brother over, and then he'll start yelling at the
big brother for pushing his baby brother. So I find
that when he gets involved, I have a lot more
damage to have to restore than just had he not
(34:47):
got involved at all.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Okay, but again there's a bit of a similarity there
because you had the response of, like, here's what you
could have done differently rather than contain and validate the
frustration of the six year old. But since the boys
haven't been getting the emotional validation from either of you,
is it something you would be able to have a
(35:13):
conversation with your husband about that you might have to
work together as a team so that you at least
are able to do a little bit more of the
emotional validation, because I think that if you had his support,
either in saying to the kids, hey, hey, keep it down,
lower your voices, or even just being there and standing
(35:36):
next to you. Often what happens when their two parents
in the home, If one of them is trying to
manage a situation and the other just comes and stands
next to them, doesn't say a word, it really feels
to the kids like you're operating as a team, and
it could feel to you like he's being supportive. But
I'm wondering if his presence might help you unfreeze in
(35:59):
those moments, or I hope the kids bring it down
in terms of volume by a notch so you can
then use some of the skills that you've been practicing
to respond in a more empathetic and validating way.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
I love that idea of just his presence being there
because I think that's something he can do and like
not screw up.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I just want to also just have you notice your
language and you said, I think that's something he can
do and not screw up. There's judgment in that, right,
and I'm sure that he picks up on that. And
when Guy was talking about presence and having his presence
there and how that might be more containing for the
children to see their parents as a team, I wonder
(36:45):
if his presence is also comforting to you, not in
terms of in front of the kids, but you did
decide to marry him, even after the emotional awakening, You
decided you wanted to stay married to him. In what
ways is his presence comforting to you? Tell us about
the positive parts of this marriage.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
That's a hard question to answer. I think I'm disassociating, Melissa.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I think part of why you might be dissociating is
because what feels really difficult for you in this moment
is to contemplate feeling close to him. The question was
about what is good in the marriage, and that evokes
emotional closeness, and I think that that's something that you're
(37:38):
still struggling with. That the idea of the emotional closeness
is what makes you very anxious and therefore kind of
dissociate and separate yourself from that strong emotion and I'm
wondering who in your life do you feel closest to emotionally.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I have the closest bond with a friend. She does
not live in my state. I run a support group
for women with men on the spectrum and she is
part of it, and we became close to friends through that.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
You're the one that's running the support group, and you
get close to the person who's in the support group.
So you can get close to someone because the situation
almost forces the emotional connection. Because you're running the support group.
It's your job to be open to the people in
the group. But I think that it might be very
(38:38):
hard for you outside of those very specific contexts to
get close And that's part of the trauma work that
you've referred to, that there's probably some more work to
be done there.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I do fear closeness, yes, And that's part of what's
happening with the boys. I think that to be there
for them, to contain them, even in that minor frustration
of the tower being broken, is to love them in
a deep connective way that might feel threatening in an
unconscious way because your history is that loving family can
(39:16):
still be very scary because The thing that stood out
for me about your description of your mum in that
scenario was she hit you from behind. It was unexpected,
it was as you were walking away. That's really difficult
because when you grow up like that, you really don't
know when it's coming, if it's from behind. And I
think there's still work to be done there so that
you can try and move past some of that trauma
(39:38):
and that fear that gets triggered, because I think it's
still operating now in the sense that it's keeping you
from allowing yourself to get too close even to your children,
to your husband, to people that you really actually do
care about.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
What you're saying resonates. I'm like feeling hot, so I
know it's it's true.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yeah, when you say you know it's true, does that
mean that you think there might be other feelings about
your husband that when you stood up there at your
wedding and you said, I'm going to marry this person,
did you feel like, yeah, he's okay? Or were you
excited on some level to marry him even if you
were also terrified.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I think part of me was excited on some level.
I think with a distance, then I've lost a lot
of respect, and it's possible that respect keeps that distance.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
For me that but also you keep the distance from him.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
I do.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
So, Melissa, we have some advice for you, and it's
in two parts. The first part is about the kids.
We believe that you've been doing a lot of work
on trying to become more emotionally literate in terms naming feelings,
and we know that you really want to connect more
with your kids. We do understand that in the moment
(41:11):
when they're shouting or crying and it's loud, it is
going to be very difficult to do that fight flight
or freeze response is really big. Then it is hard
to do something about in the moment. But you don't
have to do it in a moment. If you're frozen,
you can do it shortly after, once everyone is a
little calmer. You included. So what would like you to
(41:33):
do this week is to find opportunities that one of
the kids is upset about something and you freeze up,
and after that happens, we would like you to go
to that child. And we're just going to use as
an example the tower being toppled over by the baby.
If after that happens, you can go to your six
year old and do the emotional validation that is, help
(41:58):
him name the feeling, because you have the names now,
And the simple way to do that is to say
to him something like, I know that when you're working
on a tower and you've been putting effort into it
and you're building it, and when your brother comes and
topples it over, that can be really frustrating and you
can be really angry. I understand that, and it's okay
(42:21):
that you feel that way. Just that piece of emotional validation. Now.
Your concern in the past has been that if you
say something about his feelings he's feeling angry or he's
feeling frustrated, it will activate him again and he'll feel
angry and frustrated again, and then start chatting again, and
back to frozen you go. However, emotional validation is really
(42:43):
paradoxical in its impact, because while it seems that by
bringing up the very emotion that upset him you will
be igniting the flame again, you will actually be dousing it.
We respond by calming when somebody really names that feeling,
we have the same way. You get an insight when
(43:03):
you ah, I found the feeling in the book you
go ah, and there's a ease, there's an exhale that
comes when that happens. That's what you can give each
of the kids by doing this with them, by giving
them the names so that they can name their feelings
and learn to do it much younger than you did,
and that will be a great gift that you can
(43:24):
give them. And you can do it after the fact,
when you're calm, when they're calme. So this week would
like you to find opportunities to do that. That's the
first part of the advice.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Part two is that we want to help you think
a little bit differently about that story that you have
about you and your husband. The story that you have
is that your husband is not capable of feeling emotions
or responding to you in a way that will be
emotionally satisfying. And we think that the part of that
(43:57):
story that you're leaving out is that you have trouble
doing the same thing with him. Now, the reasons might
be different, but both of you judge the other person
for the things that you're not getting from one another,
and both of you think that it's the other person's fault.
And so what we'd like you to do to help
(44:18):
maybe edit that story a little bit and see if
a truer story emerges. Is that we'd like to see
you hold up your end of what you would like
to happen in that marriage, which is do you ever
take his hand? Do you ever show affection toward him?
For example, in that time when he said that he
(44:40):
wanted to come back and he said I miss you,
you made an assumption about why he wanted to come back,
but you didn't actually say to him, Hey, I'm really
curious to learn more about what you mean by you
miss me. So you didn't give him the opportunity to
tell you something that would have been important for you
to know, like what is it you mean? And I
(45:01):
don't think that you were able to let yourself acknowledge
what you missed about him, because I think there's a
reason that you decided to re engage in the marriage
that went beyond logistics or guilt or pressure. And you're nodding,
so we can see that that's there. So what would
(45:21):
like you to do this week with your husband is
to respond to him without the judgment and the very
rigid story that you have about his ability to be
emotionally connected and to really consider your own challenges with
emotional connection and to give in the marriage what you
(45:42):
would like. You know, when we asked about you know
the social cues that he misreads, you said, you know
globally he misreads every single social cue. Does he you know,
if he took his hand, what would he do with that?
Are you aware of his sensitivities and the way that
you're asking him to be aware of yours? And we
want to see if you notice a difference in your
(46:03):
own level of satisfaction this week? Do you feel a
little bit better? Do you feel a tiny bit more
connected if you do something that addresses your part in
what's not working in terms of the connection in the marriage,
and will that somehow influence him to feel more free
to engage with you.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of
saying he loves me, like I have a hard time
saying I love you back.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Do you have a hard time accepting that he does?
Speaker 3 (46:36):
I think for me, I don't know if it's sincere
or not.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
How do you respond when he says it?
Speaker 3 (46:44):
I usually shrug it off.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
What if the next time he said I love you,
you said it means a lot to me when you
say it, I could try that. What will happen if
you do is it will connect to you a little bit,
to your feelings, so you might freeze or disassociate. But
if you have trouble saying it with words, you can
(47:09):
just walk up to him and rub his shoulder or
his back to let him know in a gesture that
you heard and you appreciate it. If you find it,
you're freezing.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
Okay, So that's like a plan.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Can you tell us any other examples of how he
comes to you besides saying I love you.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Sometimes he'll buy flowers, he will leave it in a
bah somewhere, or sometimes he'll buy chocolate and just leave it.
I don't usually receive it well because I feel like
I need words to go with it and not just
left around. Like I saw a bag of chocolate, so
you know, I put it in the grocery shelf because
(47:49):
I didn't realize they were for me.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Well, the flowers, you can't mistake the flowers can so,
and when you get the flowers, what we're suggesting is
that you go up to and say, I found the flowers.
That is so sweet, Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
I do. I tell them again, I say, you know,
it's so thoughtful what you did, but I don't feel it.
I'm saying it for him.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
But he doesn't have the words like you do. He
doesn't have the book. All he has is the gestures,
the actual action, And so it's important to remember that
the actions really convey true emotion.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
They do I translate them that when he does things,
he's saying, you know, I can't tell you in words
what I think of you and how amazing you are,
But through this little thing, I'm showing you that I am.
Sometimes I just have to be perceptive and just accept it.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You know, we have a hypothesis, and the hypothesis is
that even if he were able to express it in
words like he does when he says I love you,
that you would freeze up at that.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
An ouch.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah, yeah, okay. You don't quite trust someone loving you.
And so no matter how that's expressed, whether he literally
says to you, I love you, you don't trust it.
If he gets flowers but words don't come with it,
you don't trust it. And so there will always be
a way to defend against those feelings of this makes
(49:26):
me really uncomfortable. I don't know how to receive love,
so I'm going to devalue it, criticize it, and I
want to just help dismantle the spectrum explanation because I'm
not saying that that doesn't contribute towards some of what
the two of you are experiencing. But I think you're
giving it much more weight than it is actually contributing
(49:51):
to what's going on between the two of you.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
You're right.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
The irony is that we often, as therapists, say to people,
don't look at what someone says. Words are cheap. Look
at what they do that will tell you their true feelings.
It's advice we give a lot of the time, but
it's valid here because look at what he does. He gets,
the flowers, he gets, the chocolates. He even says I
(50:19):
love you and I miss you, So he's communicating quite
a bit about his feelings. It's so much to take
in for you, you're so not used to it. But
if you can remember that in part, what you're complaining
about is that he doesn't make you feel enough that
(50:40):
he loves you when he's actually making you feel it
as much as you can tolerate, you're the one that's
not able to tolerate much more right now. So if
you can work on responding more to him so he
feels less criticized and that his efforts are seen are
better than not shrug, he'll be able to do more,
(51:02):
even if not say more, And you might be able
to absorb more. And that's a better cycle to be
in him doing more, you absorbing more, you expressing more,
him feeling more than doing more. That would be a
great cycle for you. Guys.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Wow, that.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Good job of staying with us. By the way, thank
you not dissociating because you're really paying attention. It's hard, yes,
but you're doing a great job.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
We saw that it was hard, and at the same time,
I think sometimes you don't realize how capable you are.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Thank you so much. Thank you, guys, Thank you. Laurie.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Melissa is really on a journey here in terms of
discovering her emotional world. I'm very curious to see where
she would be in five years or in ten years
if she continued on this journey, because she's truly at
the beginning of a process that I hope will be
much more extended and run much deeper in all kinds
of ways. And so I hope she'll be able to
(52:08):
pull off what we've asked her to do without feeling
too dissociated or too frozen by the emotion that comes up.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yeah, I agree with that, and I was so glad
that we were able to hear the part about her
husband saying I love you and bringing her flowers. I
was so moved by that, And you could see that
she wanted to be moved by that, because we could
see it in her body language and in her smile.
(52:38):
But you can also see how much she feels like
she needs to protect herself from any kind of emotion,
whether it's an emotion that seems negative because of how
she associates emotionality with what she experienced growing up, or
even emotions that seem positive, like I miss you, I
love you, leaving flowers, leaving chocolates, and exactly the way
(53:01):
she wants it. But I also feel like that's a
defense against her being able to really take in love.
And so I'm excited to hear whether going back to
her kids and validating their emotions will feel somewhat healing
for her as well as for the kids, and also
whether noticing her own resistance to expressing emotion in her
(53:24):
marriage will bring out something different in her husband. You're
listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be
back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
We heard from Melissa and we had asked it to
do a few tasks, all of which are going to
be emotionally uncomfortable for her. So let's see how she did.
Speaker 4 (53:58):
Hey, Lari and Guy, I just wanted to update you
and like you know how my week was going. This week,
I managed to validate my children twice, and I noticed
a few things. One is it's much easier to do
it not in the moment. The second thing I noticed
is originally I believed that it would like reignite them
(54:20):
if I bought it up. But I think that isn't true.
I think the truth is I'm really really scared. I
find it very hard to actually get the words of
validation out. It's so hard to be present. Both times
I ended up crying. I felt my stomach clench. It
was hard for me. But I did notice my children
(54:44):
did calm down quicker, and I did notice also that
it created a closeness. I was able to do a
lot more eye contact that felt really good, you know,
much as I want that closeness like more than anything
in the world. I'm also petrified of it. But the
(55:07):
second thing I noticed was with my husband. I tried
to be way more aware of the ways that he
really is acting loving towards me. And you know, the
stories that I really told myself regarding his ability or
inability and my parts on not picking up on his
social cues of his messages of love. And I actually
(55:28):
share this with him. I shared with him how hard
it is for me to you know, pick up on
the love. And I told him to please cue me
if he's doing something loving. And I'm you know, just
dismissing it. But I did notice he said a few
things and I just told him, you know, that means
a lot to me, and I smiled and I accepted it.
It really felt awesome, and I noticed, as there's a result,
(55:50):
I'm feeling a little closer to him. One night this week,
I was just lying on his arm, just feeling close
to him, and you know, and I said to him
something I've never said to him before. I said, you know, honey,
I feel like I'm home and I don't think I've
ever felt that before. And if that's not closeness. I'm
not sure what it is, so again, I want you
(56:12):
to thank you so much for all you've done to
help guide me along this journey.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
I think Melissa did an excellent job with both her
kids and her husband. And what I love so much
was this concept of the feedback loop that sometimes people say,
I have trouble interacting with these other people, and they
don't realize their own role in it. So once she
was able with her kids to calm down and come
(56:42):
back to them in a moment when she could gather herself,
her kids felt seen and heard and understood and they
calmed down, and then again with that feedback loop, she
was calmer with them, and I think with the husband
there was that feedback loop too, where she did thing beautiful.
She said, I want you to cue me when you're
doing something loving in case I miss it, and then
(57:05):
she was able to move closer to him, and that
moment at the end where she said, you know, I
feel closer to my entire family now, and that beautiful
way of expressing it where she said, I was lying
down with my husband and I told him that I
feel like I'm home.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
I loved it too, I really did and what I
really liked about it is that there were two leaps
of faith. We were making the point with her. Emotion
validation is scary. You're going to someone and saying you
understand why they're having these intense emotions. It feels like
you're igniting them. But when somebody feels understood, it does
(57:43):
the opposite. And I remember she was a skeptic a
bit when we said it. She tried it, she saw it,
and the same thing with her husband. You know, the
paradox is he's closed off. If I open up, I'll
only feel more distant when he's closed off. But if
you open yourself up to him, then you'll end up
feeding closer. It wasn't obvious to her that these things
will actually have the emotional impact for her that they did,
(58:07):
But she took that leap of faith. She did it spectacularly,
and I'm so glad that she got the results that
she got because of it.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
I am too, And I hope what Melissa takes away,
and also what our listeners take away, is that when
other people feel understood and we let them know that
we understand them, we start to feel more understood too.
Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
(58:36):
find out how our advice worked out a year later.
Speaker 5 (58:39):
The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with
Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship.
That helped me feel less confused about what it was
that Blake was looking towards me for and what it
(59:01):
is that he's looking for me.
Speaker 1 (59:02):
Now, Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.
Speaker 2 (59:42):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio,
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
a woman comes to us for help connecting with her husband,
her children, and her own emotions.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of
saying he loves me, like I have a hard time
saying I love you back.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:08):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. So
hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do we have this week
at our box?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, today we have a letter about trauma and its
lasting effects on us and our relationships as adults. And
it goes like this, Deotherapists. I am a mum of
four boys, and I woke up to my emotions about
four years ago. I was super emotionally repressed before this,
and I'm learning that everything is about staying present to emotions.
(01:48):
My issue is that I have a really difficult time
being there for my children through their difficult emotions. As
much as I know that being there for them and
accepting their hard emotions is one of the biggest gifts
I can give them, one of unconditional love and acceptance,
I just can't do it. I turn myself off and disconnect,
and I find that I need to be away from
(02:09):
them when they are having meltdowns. I disengage and even
dissociate to a certain extent. I feel that I'm failing
them by not being there for them emotionally when they
need me most. I think part of this may have
to do with my not being okay with my own
negative emotions. I've done a tremendous amount of self help
work and work with a few different therapists to help
(02:29):
me heal some childhood trauma. I feel bad that I
can't engage and dive in all the way, and that
really limits the depths of my relationships. It's like having
the knowledge, but emotionally not being there. Thanks Melissa.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
So this is a really good example of what happened
when you haven't had the experience of tolerating and embracing
your own emotions, and they get triggered when other people
around you have big am emotions and they're not shy
about it, especially kids. Kids are not going to edit
their emotions until they learn from the outside world that
(03:08):
maybe they should. And I think what she's worried about
is that somehow she's sending that message to them.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I agree, and I think that she clearly loves her boys,
and so I'm sure it must be really difficult for
her that she feels disconnected from them in this specific way.
And it's obviously going to be difficult for them as well,
un as she can change it.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, and I think she's right when she talks about
healing some childhood trauma, because when she talks about dissociating,
that's what happens with trauma, is that the emotions, whether
they're yours or there's someone's around you feel so big
and so scary that you just don't want to be there,
(03:47):
and so you emotionally remove yourself from the situation. And
that's what she does. So let's go talk to her
and find out a little bit more and see how
we can help.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
You're listening to deal with the therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll
be back after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and
I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist. Hi Melissa,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Hi, Hi Melissa, Hi there.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So we read your letter. You mentioned that you awoke
to your emotions four years ago. Can you tell us
a little bit about what happened then and what this
awakening was about?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Sure, So, four years ago, I was a very emotionally
not developed person. I was feeling things and feeling overwhelmed
by them. But I had no way of putting words
to them. And then my husband and I separated for
over a year, and during that year I did a
lot of self growth, self healing work that made me
(04:51):
really really aware of what was going on and gave
me a whole dictionaryan language for emotions.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
You and your husband got back together after a year.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Did that have something to do with the fact that
you were feeling cut off from your emotions?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I think in all relationships there's two parts to making
something work. I wasn't aware of what I needed. I
wasn't able to express what I needed, and I think
that made it very difficult for my husband to know.
Because he's a good person and wants to do good
things for me, he just has no clue. He's not
able to and to it that himself. So with that said,
(05:32):
my husband and two of my children are on the
autistic spectrum high functioning autism. So I realized that about
my husband about maybe six years ago, and I have
done a lot of, you know, research, and immersed myself
in that world.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
How long have you been married and how old are
the four boys?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
So I've been married eighteen years and my boys are
seventeen twelve six and one.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
You said that you had trouble with their difficult, big
emotions when they have them. But tell us first how
you deal with your own.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Oh, that's a big question. I started feeling them so before,
I guess a couple of years ago. I was not
allowing myself to feel them. I shut myself down. I
was kind of like in survival mode. I tend to
sit with them a lot more now, so I acknowledge them.
Sometimes I have conversations with them. Mostly I think I'm
(06:32):
in touch with them through my writing. So I write
what I'm feeling. In the beginning, it was very difficult
to figure it out. Like I would have a like
a dictionary of feeling words, and I would know I'm
feeling something, and I would like just scruffle through it
and try to figure out what it is I'm feeling.
And I'd go through all the words and like, oh
my god, I'm feeling lonely and I'd laugh and cry.
(06:53):
I figure it out heartbroken, and so I have words
for them.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
There's an actual term for what you're describing. It's called alexiphymia,
and it means that you don't have a vocabulary for
what you're feeling. You don't know how to articulate what
you're feeling, and so sometimes with little kids, we give
them a chart sort of like the primary colors red, yellow, blue,
(07:20):
It's happy, mad, sad, right, just to even have a
place to start with. And I imagine that if you
had no experience with your feelings, that you would have
to learn a whole new vocabulary.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, for sure, it's like learning a new language. And
it's so beautiful and so overwhelming, and it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
We call that emotional literacy.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Right, And I've realized now I'm an extremely emotional person,
and I'll tell you how much I'm feeling anything. So
in the beginning, I thought, you know, a lot of
the lack of emotional connect with my husband was because
he's on his back. But then I realized my part
is was I was not in touch at all with
what I was feeling. And you know, I put too
(08:07):
much of the blame on him. I really did.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
You said a few minutes ago that you were in
survival mode. What were you trying to survive?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
I would think I was just trying to survive day
to day life. I had a very rough childhood. My
marriage was very shaky from the beginning, and I have
four kids and some of them are very high needs,
and I was just trying to keep it together, just
to function, to work, to eat, to feed myself, and
(08:42):
I wasn't able to do so so well that self
care wasn't amazing. And then as I developed with the
emotional stuff, I became so much better at taking care
of myself.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Can you tell us a little bit about the rough childhood?
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah, I guess I didn't realize growing up. My father
had Asperger's very very like extreme rigid, and my mom
is from a broken home. She was putting faster care
as a child, and none of them had any emotional intelligence.
There was definitely a lot of neglect going around, a
lot of emotional abuse, some physical abuse.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
When is it you started to realize that your childhood
wasn't the normal childhood in the sense that it had
these challenges, because when we grow up, we don't know
if what we're experiencing is common or not. Necessarily, when
did you start to get how different your upbringing was.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I think it started like in my twenties. I noticed
things were off about it. I started seeing other families
are different that fathers could be involved with their with
their kids. I think as a child, I knew something
was off. I just didn't know what.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Can you give us an example of something that felt
off to you in retrospect?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
My mother would have rages and become violent or just
scream crazy stuff like I think the last time, maybe
when I was about nineteen, she was complaining about my
father not giving her enough money to do shopping, and
I said something that nice to my dad, like stopping
such a stingy person, or you know, something a child
(10:26):
probably shouldn't say to a parent. But I kind of
left the room, and all of a sudden, she came
behind me and started like punching me in my head
and like and just you know, chasing me and saying
I'm going to kill you. Things like that where they're
just I think anyone would really know that's off. So
I think I've had to learn a lot on how
to separate between you know, what's her and what's me.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
You said you've been in therapy over these past years.
How much work have you done on trying to really
understand the experience you had and as a child through
the eyes of someone who then does recognize what was
acceptable and what wasn't. How much self compassion have you
(11:10):
developed for the experiences that you went through.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
The first therapist I saw her for many, many years,
and she was like one of the CBT model kinds,
and I don't think it really worked for me because
she never reflected back. So I never had a sense
of normalcy from her either, which means if I described
something crazy, she wouldn't necessarily GOHI that's absolutely nuts. She
(11:38):
would say, you know, how can we reframe that? Or
it really didn't help me. I think about four years
ago is when I really started looking at what happened
and seeing it and working on the self compassion. I
think that has been key.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
I think what you're really talking about is what we
call emotional validation. And I think you were really craving
that because when you were a girl, you must have
wondered at some point is this typical? Or is this
my fault? Or is something going on with my parents?
And so you didn't get that emotional validation of yes,
(12:17):
this is not okay, Yes this is not about you,
Yes this is something that's going on with your parents.
And so when you just told us the story of
your mother had this reaction of where she started hitting
your head. I don't know if you saw our faces,
but we just empathized so much with the pain of
(12:38):
that and the confusion and also the sense of betrayal
that your parents are supposed to be the people who
protect you and yet you're afraid of them. And if
you don't get the validation, it's hard to know what
to do with your own feelings when you have them.
So when you said I'm actually a very emotional person,
we're all very emotional People's human is you just aren't
(13:02):
used to feeling your emotions.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yeah, I hear that. I totally hear that.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Tell us a little bit, then, what happens with your sons?
You mentioned meltdowns in your letter. Could you give us
an example of the kinds of situations that you find
yourself in with your sons that you have a hard
time dealing with emotionally, that you disconnect.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yesterday, my son came home and he wanted to hop
on the computer, and I said, we're gonna help mommy
for a little bit first, and you know, although I
know it's unexpected, he had a complete meltdown. He's twelve.
So you wouldn't expect him to lie on the floor crying, screaming.
It was extremely loud, and I don't know what happens
(13:48):
to me from loudness, but I can't manage it, like
I'm very sensitive to noise. And then the end, I said,
you know, like you have ten seconds to just get
yourself to your room because you cannot stay here and
scream while I'm cleaning with your other brother. And then
I went out on the stroller with the baby and
we went for a walk just to get a break
from the noise. But I'm not there with him. I'm
(14:09):
not there with him in the moment.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
You said you have two sons who are on the spectrum?
Is that one of the suns?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
No, it's not. He's probably one of my easier ones.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
That reminds me a little bit of what happened with
your parents, where they would have these very exaggerated reactions
to things and you had to sit there and think, well,
is this typical? Is this not typical? And I think
the same thing with your son. You said, well, he's twelve,
(14:42):
so I don't think he should be doing that, But
at the same time, you're not really sure. I think
that's sort of a replication of something that you've experienced
your whole life, which is, how do I know what
is typical acceptable?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Totally relate to that? That really resonates.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
The example he gave Melissa is one in which your
son had an unusual reaction. I'm curious about what happens
in the regular life experiences when the boys feel sad
or upset or disappointed or rejected. What happens in moments
like that.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
I mean, my six year old might come and say
his one year old brother smashes tower, he bolt, and
he's really, like, really angry and really upset about it.
I don't think I typically will respond with a lot
of empathy. I'll say I'm sorry, but I don't really
feel it, quite honestly, And you know, I might also
(15:43):
shift some other responsibility to him, like you know, your
brother's up right now and he can reach it, maybe
he should be doing it on a different surface or
in a different room with the door closes or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
What happens inside of you that kind of makes you disengage,
Because the response I just heard was very dis engaged.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I think because there's so much screaming and noise accompanied
with it. It's really hard for me to even hear
what he needs.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
But what actually happens in your body? Can you close
your eyes for a minute and tell us what happens
when you go back and think about that.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
I think I cringe, like at the noise, and I
feel like I free somewhat. And I think if the
noise level is high enough, I can't even think, like
I can't figure out what I need to do, you know.
I like if my kids screaming for food and they're
(16:41):
hungry right now and I'm trying to get something, I'll
open the fridge and not be able to get anything
out because I'm not really functioning. I'm not really able
to think, like, what is it I need to do
next in order to help the child. I'm just more frozen.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So the noise really makes a big difference to you.
There's about the view that knows, Yeah, I can't spend
a second going oh, I'm sorry, honey, and before you
go to but maybe put it on the table because
you can reach the younger brother. Is that something that
comes to you in hindsight or is that something you
recognize even in a moment, but feel frozen because of
the noise.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I think it's easier in hindsight, but many times it
is in the moment, but I'm frozen, or because I
feel like almost a repulsion to the child, like just
get away from me, Just go away, leave me alone.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Their pain is causing you so much distress when we
feel pain, and emotional pain registers in the brain very
very similarly to physical pain, and our response to physical
pain is often to lash out in anger, and our
response to emotional pain can be very similar sometimes. And
so I'm assuming that at some of those moments their
(17:50):
distress is triggering a lot of pain in you. Is
that something that you've realized.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I didn't realize, but it sounds true.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So then it's about you being able to manage your
pain as well as theirs, because that's what keeps getting triggered.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I don't think I could do both at the same time.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
The question is whether you're doing either of them, because
it sounds like when you freeze, then you're not dealing
with yours or theirs.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Correct them not.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
In response to threats, emotional threats, physical threats, there's fight,
flight and freeze. So a lot of people know about
fight or flight. In an argument like with a partner,
for example, but especially with the history of trauma, freeze
(18:43):
is very common, and I think what you're doing is
you're going straight into freeze. And so as guy was saying,
it's hard for you when you're frozen to manage your
pain or your child's pain. You're standing in front of
the refrigerator with the door open, unable to move. And
I think that one of the things that would be
(19:04):
really helpful is to understand a little bit more about
how in the last four years since you've had this awakening,
you've come to manage your own emotions.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
That's a big question. I think I do come to
myself with a lot more self compassion, more like as
a friend than as an enemy or a judge. Let's
say I goof up, I know, messed up something, and
I just put my friends in there and say, you know,
if she messed up, how would I feel? And I
would have a lot more compassion. So sometimes that helps.
(19:39):
I engage in a lot of self soothing practices just
to help me in general, with hot bath, hot shower, meditate,
just physical things that I'm doing to calm myself.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Do you notice in that moment when there's a lot
of noise that it feels a lot like the noise
when you were growing up, when you were being yelled at,
when your parents were having big reactions to things. Does
it feel reminiscent of that. Sometimes what kids do in
(20:14):
that moment is they dissociate. They take themselves somewhere else
in their minds. And you mentioned in your letter that
sometimes you dissociate with the kids. Does that feel familiar
to you.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I haven't put the two and two together. It feels
more if I had to put a word, like like
being in trouble, like being on the hot seat.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
What's the part that feels like being on the hot seat?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I guess when I hear screaming, I feel like I'm
supposed to do something with it.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So danger it feels like danger.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
It does feel like danger.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yes, Because when your parents would get very loud, you
did feel like you were in trouble because they told
you that you were the cause of their pain. Yes,
And so every time you hear that loudness, you feel
like I'm being blamed for this other person's pain, even
(21:15):
though I'm not quite sure that I'm responsible for it.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And now when your kids come to you and they
get very loud, like, look what happened. He knocked down
my tower. Even though he's not blaming you, he's coming
to you because he's really upset. You hear it as
and you, mom should have done something about this, and you,
mom should have prevented him from knocking down my tower,
(21:42):
and you, mom need to take away my anger and
my pain at this, and you are to blame. I
think that's the message that you're hearing from him.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah, that sounds true.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
When you have these exchanges and you freeze, what happens afterwards?
When you unfreeze? Do you do any kind of repair
work with your son about it later on?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I don't think I do most of the times, unless
I like yell at the kid to just go away.
I might apologize later I'm sorry I yelled at you.
I shouldn't have done that.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
But you don't go back and say, do you want
to talk more about how frustrating it is when you're
building something and your brother comes and ruins it. You
don't go back and try and talk to them about
it when they're calmer, when you're karmo, when they're not shouting,
when you can think, I do not.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
What do you think would happen if you did, I
think they would explode again. I feel like it's going
to dredge it up again for them and maybe for me.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
So the feeling you have is that they will not
be able to control their emotions, even if they're calm
in the moment, even if it's after the thing actually happened,
that any discussion of something that's activating or upsetting, they
will lose control. They will get loud, that you will freeze,
and that whole cycle will happen. Yeah, but if that's
(23:09):
not entirely true, what if they can talk about it
when they're calmer and they're a little more removed and
have more perspective. Do you think you'd be able to
have that kind of conversation with them if they were calmer.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Oh, I think I could. I think I just have
to be patient, you know, to wait for them to
completely calm down, and then to bring it up again.
I guess be brave enough to go back into the
arena because.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
The paradox of it is, and I think this might
have been your experience too, that when your parent doesn't
give you that emotional validation, it makes you get louder
because you're trying to get something from them. They didn't
hear it apparently the first time. They didn't get it
the first time. So I think the way things happen
(23:56):
now with you freezing and then being loud up this cycle,
when in fact, if you approach them once they were
calm and you will calm as well, what you would
be pulling out of them would be something calmer that,
in time would help them keep the lid perhaps on
getting too loud when things happen, because they'd have a
(24:18):
little bit more of the assurance that Mom can hear
us even if we're not loud, and especially perhaps if
we're not.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I think that would be great.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Can you tell us a little bit more about the marriage?
You split up for a year, you got back together.
What has it been like since you got back together?
What has changed that has made it work better for
both of you and particularly in terms of the emotional connection.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
So since we've got back what has changed, I feel
is mostly on my part is the way I communicate,
which means if I need something, I need to take
a shower now, and I need you to watch the
children while I take the shower. Before the breakup, I
think I would not have been able to say it
that way. I just would have been I need a shower,
and he'd say later and then forget later, and I
(25:08):
would just explode that I need a shower at some point.
So I think being able just to verbalize what I
need and just managing expectations on my part, expecting my
husband to come with a whole boatload of empathy isn't
really realistic, and part of it really isn't. Again, he
had no modeling, you know as well. For that. I
feel like I am happier, but not because he's, you know,
(25:31):
stepping up and meeting my needs. It's because I'm stepping
up a meeting my needs. I'm getting much better at
self care, taking a lot of time for myself because
I need a lot of quiet time just to be
by myself.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
About that. By the way, how much are the five
guys in the house aware that noise is really difficult
for mom? Your husband? Is he clear about it or not?
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I think he is aware that it bothers me, but.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
That's putting it way too mildly. Because it bothers you
means it's a little annoying, but you can manage it
makes you freeze. It really activates you, it triggers you.
And I'm wondering if he's clear enough about the fact
that he could be useful by paying attention to the
noise level in the house and stepping in, and that
(26:25):
that would be a very helpful duty as a co
parent and as a husband on his part. Do you
think he's clear enough that he can actually add value
there more than he might be at the moment.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
I think I'd have to verbalize it and express it
in that way that I really need him to step
up and help me with that. I find sometimes when
I do express my overwhelm, he can get judgmental about it.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Well, he'll tell me that it's not normal, or that
other people aren't like that, or I really should get
help for that to deal with it a little better.
It's not empathy.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I find that when somebody has a sensitivity that one
of the best responses you can have when somebody says, well,
you're sensitive, is to say, yes, I am. I have
a sensitivity. That's why I'm asking for your help to
kind of own the sensitivity rather than have to apologize
for it or feel that it's something that you need
(27:24):
to fix.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I do own it, and I am very honest about
being sensitive to many things. I do find that it
turns judgmental where it's like, this is your issue, you
need to get help for that.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
When you say that he's framing this as your issue.
Did the two of you when you split up go
to couple's therapy together. I'm a little bit unclear about
who initiated the split up, what caused it, and then
what did the two of you do to try to
make things different so that you could come back to other.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Okay, so before this the split up, we saw many
marriage counselors. Many of the times my husband would stop
after four six sessions and say, you know, and now
I know what I'm supposed to do, so I just
need to do it. Until then there's no point in continuing.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Was it your idea to go to counseling?
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I absolutely pushed it. It was, you know, it was
pretty much a thread over has had many times where
he'd start, stop, start, stop, in and out all the time,
but never voluntarily saying, hey, maybe we should get some help.
So what I did find helpful was during the split up,
somebody had recommended a marriage coach and it was very
(28:40):
different from counseling, but it definitely was counseling. We worked
with that person for maybe a year, just over a year,
and she was incredible and skilled, and she was the
one that helped me wake up to my emotions.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
What happened between you and your husband during that time
in terms of getting closer? What did he learn about you?
And what did you learn about him?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
I learned to be more vulnerable to him, to let
him have space to be there for me as a husband.
I think he did step up to the plate to
a certain extent, maybe not as much as I would
have liked. I do think him moving back was premature.
I felt like I was pressured into it and I
(29:26):
wasn't ready by him. I was pressured by him and
a little bit by the marriage coach.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Did your husband want to move back because he expressed
missing you?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
No, he wanted to move back for other reasons. I
think he was very shamed that a separation, I guess,
and you know the circles where he's from, divorce is
very frowned upon. He's from a country that just doesn't
support that kind of stuff. I think he felt maybe
like a failure. He felt rejected. There were many things
(30:01):
he was feeling.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
You say you'd think he felt meaning, you're guessing or
he was able to articulate those to you.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
He was able to articulate, maybe not directly, like he
was saying I was always afraid I'd get married one
day and it would never work out, or things like
that where I could kind of guess that he was
fearing rejection.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
But he never said I miss you.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
You know what he said, I miss you. But again,
with people in the spectrum, there's usually no voice, fluctuation,
or feeling behind it. He may have meant it. I'm
not saying I felt it.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
I just want to say one thing about people on
the spectrum that I think there's this misconception that they
don't feel, and they absolutely feel, and maybe they don't
express it well, and that is their challenge. So when
you say there was no emotion in his voice when
he said I miss you, that does not mean that
(31:05):
he did not miss you. It means it might have
sounded a bit mechanical or robotic in terms of the tone.
But I think that you are very invested in this
idea that because he's on the spectrum, that he doesn't
have feelings, and that just not true. He has feelings,
(31:27):
he doesn't know what to do with them or how
to articulate them. And I think that you too, actually
have more in common than you realize. And the way
that this has been portrayed in your marriage, especially since
the emotional awakening, has been that you're the one who
knows how to feel and he doesn't know how to feel.
(31:47):
And I think that it's something to consider that he
does know how to feel, but like you, he doesn't
know how to express it. And I think that there's
no coincidence that the two of you ended up together
in the first place.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Yeah, I agree with you that one. I think it
was also I was questioning where he was coming from.
So although he may say, you know, I miss you,
it may be like, hey, I'm not going to have
a place to live next month, like I really need
to move in. I was unsure as to which one
it was that was pushing him saying I miss you.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Right, And it could be lots of things like the
logistical piece as well as the emotional piece. But do
you notice that you didn't ask.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
No, I didn't ask.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
I judged right, and both of you do that to
each other.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Another thing to keep in mind with people on the
spectrum is that they often can miss emotional cues. And
so you're smiling, tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yes, they definitely will the emotional cues, social cues, physical cues,
every cue.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
That.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, I take it from that that you've put a
lot of cues out there and many of them did
not come back. And when they miss them again, another
misconceptionist that they ignore them. But to ignore something, it
has to show up on your radar. And often what
happens is it doesn't show up on the radar. So
it's not ignoring, it's literally missing, not seeing. And I'm
(33:27):
glad you know that. I mean, you know that enough
to smile at it. So I'm glad you know that,
because otherwise you can equally misjudge the lack of response
is not caring when that's not the case. It might
be caring.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
He's so frustrated by the way that noise triggers you
because it doesn't trigger him in the same way, And
you're so frustrated that he can't read these cues because
you can read them very easily. And I think that
the reason that we're talking about your marriage even though
you wrote about your children, Is that what the two
of you do in practice together will help you so
(34:01):
much with what you do and what you practice with
your children.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, I'm sure there are opportunities where your husband passes
by just as the baby is knocking down the tower
of the six year old, or whatever the comparable situation
would be with any of the other boys, and he's
actually the first parent on the scene. Does he just
keep walking? Does he intervene? What are his parenting efforts
with the boys?
Speaker 3 (34:26):
I don't think he's an effective parent in terms of
stopping it. He might say, well, it's a baby, so
just let him smash it down. He might like push
his brother over, and then he'll start yelling at the
big brother for pushing his baby brother. So I find
that when he gets involved, I have a lot more
damage to have to restore than just had he not
(34:47):
got involved at all.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Okay, but again there's a bit of a similarity there
because you had the response of, like, here's what you
could have done differently rather than contain and validate the
frustration of the six year old. But since the boys
haven't been getting the emotional validation from either of you,
is it something you would be able to have a
(35:13):
conversation with your husband about that you might have to
work together as a team so that you at least
are able to do a little bit more of the
emotional validation, because I think that if you had his support,
either in saying to the kids, hey, hey, keep it down,
lower your voices, or even just being there and standing
(35:36):
next to you. Often what happens when their two parents
in the home, If one of them is trying to
manage a situation and the other just comes and stands
next to them, doesn't say a word, it really feels
to the kids like you're operating as a team, and
it could feel to you like he's being supportive. But
I'm wondering if his presence might help you unfreeze in
(35:59):
those moments, or I hope the kids bring it down
in terms of volume by a notch so you can
then use some of the skills that you've been practicing
to respond in a more empathetic and validating way.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
I love that idea of just his presence being there
because I think that's something he can do and like
not screw up.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I just want to also just have you notice your
language and you said, I think that's something he can
do and not screw up. There's judgment in that, right,
and I'm sure that he picks up on that. And
when Guy was talking about presence and having his presence
there and how that might be more containing for the
children to see their parents as a team, I wonder
(36:45):
if his presence is also comforting to you, not in
terms of in front of the kids, but you did
decide to marry him, even after the emotional awakening, You
decided you wanted to stay married to him. In what
ways is his presence comforting to you? Tell us about
the positive parts of this marriage.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
That's a hard question to answer. I think I'm disassociating, Melissa.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I think part of why you might be dissociating is
because what feels really difficult for you in this moment
is to contemplate feeling close to him. The question was
about what is good in the marriage, and that evokes
emotional closeness, and I think that that's something that you're
(37:38):
still struggling with. That the idea of the emotional closeness
is what makes you very anxious and therefore kind of
dissociate and separate yourself from that strong emotion and I'm
wondering who in your life do you feel closest to emotionally.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I have the closest bond with a friend. She does
not live in my state. I run a support group
for women with men on the spectrum and she is
part of it, and we became close to friends through that.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
You're the one that's running the support group, and you
get close to the person who's in the support group.
So you can get close to someone because the situation
almost forces the emotional connection. Because you're running the support group.
It's your job to be open to the people in
the group. But I think that it might be very
(38:38):
hard for you outside of those very specific contexts to
get close And that's part of the trauma work that
you've referred to, that there's probably some more work to
be done there.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I do fear closeness, yes, And that's part of what's
happening with the boys. I think that to be there
for them, to contain them, even in that minor frustration
of the tower being broken, is to love them in
a deep connective way that might feel threatening in an
unconscious way because your history is that loving family can
(39:16):
still be very scary because The thing that stood out
for me about your description of your mum in that
scenario was she hit you from behind. It was unexpected,
it was as you were walking away. That's really difficult
because when you grow up like that, you really don't
know when it's coming, if it's from behind. And I
think there's still work to be done there so that
you can try and move past some of that trauma
(39:38):
and that fear that gets triggered, because I think it's
still operating now in the sense that it's keeping you
from allowing yourself to get too close even to your children,
to your husband, to people that you really actually do
care about.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
What you're saying resonates. I'm like feeling hot, so I
know it's it's true.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yeah, when you say you know it's true, does that
mean that you think there might be other feelings about
your husband that when you stood up there at your
wedding and you said, I'm going to marry this person,
did you feel like, yeah, he's okay? Or were you
excited on some level to marry him even if you
were also terrified.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I think part of me was excited on some level.
I think with a distance, then I've lost a lot
of respect, and it's possible that respect keeps that distance.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
For me that but also you keep the distance from him.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
I do.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
So, Melissa, we have some advice for you, and it's
in two parts. The first part is about the kids.
We believe that you've been doing a lot of work
on trying to become more emotionally literate in terms naming feelings,
and we know that you really want to connect more
with your kids. We do understand that in the moment
(41:11):
when they're shouting or crying and it's loud, it is
going to be very difficult to do that fight flight
or freeze response is really big. Then it is hard
to do something about in the moment. But you don't
have to do it in a moment. If you're frozen,
you can do it shortly after, once everyone is a
little calmer. You included. So what would like you to
(41:33):
do this week is to find opportunities that one of
the kids is upset about something and you freeze up,
and after that happens, we would like you to go
to that child. And we're just going to use as
an example the tower being toppled over by the baby.
If after that happens, you can go to your six
year old and do the emotional validation that is, help
(41:58):
him name the feeling, because you have the names now,
And the simple way to do that is to say
to him something like, I know that when you're working
on a tower and you've been putting effort into it
and you're building it, and when your brother comes and
topples it over, that can be really frustrating and you
can be really angry. I understand that, and it's okay
(42:21):
that you feel that way. Just that piece of emotional validation. Now.
Your concern in the past has been that if you
say something about his feelings he's feeling angry or he's
feeling frustrated, it will activate him again and he'll feel
angry and frustrated again, and then start chatting again, and
back to frozen you go. However, emotional validation is really
(42:43):
paradoxical in its impact, because while it seems that by
bringing up the very emotion that upset him you will
be igniting the flame again, you will actually be dousing it.
We respond by calming when somebody really names that feeling,
we have the same way. You get an insight when
(43:03):
you ah, I found the feeling in the book you
go ah, and there's a ease, there's an exhale that
comes when that happens. That's what you can give each
of the kids by doing this with them, by giving
them the names so that they can name their feelings
and learn to do it much younger than you did,
and that will be a great gift that you can
(43:24):
give them. And you can do it after the fact,
when you're calm, when they're calme. So this week would
like you to find opportunities to do that. That's the
first part of the advice.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Part two is that we want to help you think
a little bit differently about that story that you have
about you and your husband. The story that you have
is that your husband is not capable of feeling emotions
or responding to you in a way that will be
emotionally satisfying. And we think that the part of that
(43:57):
story that you're leaving out is that you have trouble
doing the same thing with him. Now, the reasons might
be different, but both of you judge the other person
for the things that you're not getting from one another,
and both of you think that it's the other person's fault.
And so what we'd like you to do to help
(44:18):
maybe edit that story a little bit and see if
a truer story emerges. Is that we'd like to see
you hold up your end of what you would like
to happen in that marriage, which is do you ever
take his hand? Do you ever show affection toward him?
For example, in that time when he said that he
(44:40):
wanted to come back and he said I miss you,
you made an assumption about why he wanted to come back,
but you didn't actually say to him, Hey, I'm really
curious to learn more about what you mean by you
miss me. So you didn't give him the opportunity to
tell you something that would have been important for you
to know, like what is it you mean? And I
(45:01):
don't think that you were able to let yourself acknowledge
what you missed about him, because I think there's a
reason that you decided to re engage in the marriage
that went beyond logistics or guilt or pressure. And you're nodding,
so we can see that that's there. So what would
(45:21):
like you to do this week with your husband is
to respond to him without the judgment and the very
rigid story that you have about his ability to be
emotionally connected and to really consider your own challenges with
emotional connection and to give in the marriage what you
(45:42):
would like. You know, when we asked about you know
the social cues that he misreads, you said, you know
globally he misreads every single social cue. Does he you know,
if he took his hand, what would he do with that?
Are you aware of his sensitivities and the way that
you're asking him to be aware of yours? And we
want to see if you notice a difference in your
(46:03):
own level of satisfaction this week? Do you feel a
little bit better? Do you feel a tiny bit more
connected if you do something that addresses your part in
what's not working in terms of the connection in the marriage,
and will that somehow influence him to feel more free
to engage with you.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of
saying he loves me, like I have a hard time
saying I love you back.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Do you have a hard time accepting that he does?
Speaker 3 (46:36):
I think for me, I don't know if it's sincere
or not.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
How do you respond when he says it?
Speaker 3 (46:44):
I usually shrug it off.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
What if the next time he said I love you,
you said it means a lot to me when you
say it, I could try that. What will happen if
you do is it will connect to you a little bit,
to your feelings, so you might freeze or disassociate. But
if you have trouble saying it with words, you can
(47:09):
just walk up to him and rub his shoulder or
his back to let him know in a gesture that
you heard and you appreciate it. If you find it,
you're freezing.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
Okay, So that's like a plan.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Can you tell us any other examples of how he
comes to you besides saying I love you.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Sometimes he'll buy flowers, he will leave it in a
bah somewhere, or sometimes he'll buy chocolate and just leave it.
I don't usually receive it well because I feel like
I need words to go with it and not just
left around. Like I saw a bag of chocolate, so
you know, I put it in the grocery shelf because
(47:49):
I didn't realize they were for me.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Well, the flowers, you can't mistake the flowers can so,
and when you get the flowers, what we're suggesting is
that you go up to and say, I found the flowers.
That is so sweet, Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
I do. I tell them again, I say, you know,
it's so thoughtful what you did, but I don't feel it.
I'm saying it for him.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
But he doesn't have the words like you do. He
doesn't have the book. All he has is the gestures,
the actual action, And so it's important to remember that
the actions really convey true emotion.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
They do I translate them that when he does things,
he's saying, you know, I can't tell you in words
what I think of you and how amazing you are,
But through this little thing, I'm showing you that I am.
Sometimes I just have to be perceptive and just accept it.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You know, we have a hypothesis, and the hypothesis is
that even if he were able to express it in
words like he does when he says I love you,
that you would freeze up at that.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
An ouch.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah, yeah, okay. You don't quite trust someone loving you.
And so no matter how that's expressed, whether he literally
says to you, I love you, you don't trust it.
If he gets flowers but words don't come with it,
you don't trust it. And so there will always be
a way to defend against those feelings of this makes
(49:26):
me really uncomfortable. I don't know how to receive love,
so I'm going to devalue it, criticize it, and I
want to just help dismantle the spectrum explanation because I'm
not saying that that doesn't contribute towards some of what
the two of you are experiencing. But I think you're
giving it much more weight than it is actually contributing
(49:51):
to what's going on between the two of you.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
You're right.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
The irony is that we often, as therapists, say to people,
don't look at what someone says. Words are cheap. Look
at what they do that will tell you their true feelings.
It's advice we give a lot of the time, but
it's valid here because look at what he does. He gets,
the flowers, he gets, the chocolates. He even says I
(50:19):
love you and I miss you, So he's communicating quite
a bit about his feelings. It's so much to take
in for you, you're so not used to it. But
if you can remember that in part, what you're complaining
about is that he doesn't make you feel enough that
(50:40):
he loves you when he's actually making you feel it
as much as you can tolerate, you're the one that's
not able to tolerate much more right now. So if
you can work on responding more to him so he
feels less criticized and that his efforts are seen are
better than not shrug, he'll be able to do more,
(51:02):
even if not say more, And you might be able
to absorb more. And that's a better cycle to be
in him doing more, you absorbing more, you expressing more,
him feeling more than doing more. That would be a
great cycle for you. Guys.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Wow, that.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Good job of staying with us. By the way, thank
you not dissociating because you're really paying attention. It's hard, yes,
but you're doing a great job.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
We saw that it was hard, and at the same time,
I think sometimes you don't realize how capable you are.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Thank you so much. Thank you, guys, Thank you. Laurie.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Melissa is really on a journey here in terms of
discovering her emotional world. I'm very curious to see where
she would be in five years or in ten years
if she continued on this journey, because she's truly at
the beginning of a process that I hope will be
much more extended and run much deeper in all kinds
of ways. And so I hope she'll be able to
(52:08):
pull off what we've asked her to do without feeling
too dissociated or too frozen by the emotion that comes up.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yeah, I agree with that, and I was so glad
that we were able to hear the part about her
husband saying I love you and bringing her flowers. I
was so moved by that, And you could see that
she wanted to be moved by that, because we could
see it in her body language and in her smile.
(52:38):
But you can also see how much she feels like
she needs to protect herself from any kind of emotion,
whether it's an emotion that seems negative because of how
she associates emotionality with what she experienced growing up, or
even emotions that seem positive, like I miss you, I
love you, leaving flowers, leaving chocolates, and exactly the way
(53:01):
she wants it. But I also feel like that's a
defense against her being able to really take in love.
And so I'm excited to hear whether going back to
her kids and validating their emotions will feel somewhat healing
for her as well as for the kids, and also
whether noticing her own resistance to expressing emotion in her
(53:24):
marriage will bring out something different in her husband. You're
listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be
back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
We heard from Melissa and we had asked it to
do a few tasks, all of which are going to
be emotionally uncomfortable for her. So let's see how she did.
Speaker 4 (53:58):
Hey, Lari and Guy, I just wanted to update you
and like you know how my week was going. This week,
I managed to validate my children twice, and I noticed
a few things. One is it's much easier to do
it not in the moment. The second thing I noticed
is originally I believed that it would like reignite them
(54:20):
if I bought it up. But I think that isn't true.
I think the truth is I'm really really scared. I
find it very hard to actually get the words of
validation out. It's so hard to be present. Both times
I ended up crying. I felt my stomach clench. It
was hard for me. But I did notice my children
(54:44):
did calm down quicker, and I did notice also that
it created a closeness. I was able to do a
lot more eye contact that felt really good, you know,
much as I want that closeness like more than anything
in the world. I'm also petrified of it. But the
(55:07):
second thing I noticed was with my husband. I tried
to be way more aware of the ways that he
really is acting loving towards me. And you know, the
stories that I really told myself regarding his ability or
inability and my parts on not picking up on his
social cues of his messages of love. And I actually
(55:28):
share this with him. I shared with him how hard
it is for me to you know, pick up on
the love. And I told him to please cue me
if he's doing something loving. And I'm you know, just
dismissing it. But I did notice he said a few
things and I just told him, you know, that means
a lot to me, and I smiled and I accepted it.
It really felt awesome, and I noticed, as there's a result,
(55:50):
I'm feeling a little closer to him. One night this week,
I was just lying on his arm, just feeling close
to him, and you know, and I said to him
something I've never said to him before. I said, you know, honey,
I feel like I'm home and I don't think I've
ever felt that before. And if that's not closeness. I'm
not sure what it is, so again, I want you
(56:12):
to thank you so much for all you've done to
help guide me along this journey.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
I think Melissa did an excellent job with both her
kids and her husband. And what I love so much
was this concept of the feedback loop that sometimes people say,
I have trouble interacting with these other people, and they
don't realize their own role in it. So once she
was able with her kids to calm down and come
(56:42):
back to them in a moment when she could gather herself,
her kids felt seen and heard and understood and they
calmed down, and then again with that feedback loop, she
was calmer with them, and I think with the husband
there was that feedback loop too, where she did thing beautiful.
She said, I want you to cue me when you're
doing something loving in case I miss it, and then
(57:05):
she was able to move closer to him, and that
moment at the end where she said, you know, I
feel closer to my entire family now, and that beautiful
way of expressing it where she said, I was lying
down with my husband and I told him that I
feel like I'm home.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
I loved it too, I really did and what I
really liked about it is that there were two leaps
of faith. We were making the point with her. Emotion
validation is scary. You're going to someone and saying you
understand why they're having these intense emotions. It feels like
you're igniting them. But when somebody feels understood, it does
(57:43):
the opposite. And I remember she was a skeptic a
bit when we said it. She tried it, she saw it,
and the same thing with her husband. You know, the
paradox is he's closed off. If I open up, I'll
only feel more distant when he's closed off. But if
you open yourself up to him, then you'll end up
feeding closer. It wasn't obvious to her that these things
will actually have the emotional impact for her that they did,
(58:07):
But she took that leap of faith. She did it spectacularly,
and I'm so glad that she got the results that
she got because of it.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
I am too, And I hope what Melissa takes away,
and also what our listeners take away, is that when
other people feel understood and we let them know that
we understand them, we start to feel more understood too.
Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
(58:36):
find out how our advice worked out a year later.
Speaker 5 (58:39):
The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with
Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship.
That helped me feel less confused about what it was
that Blake was looking towards me for and what it
(59:01):
is that he's looking for me.
Speaker 1 (59:02):
Now, Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.
Speaker 2 (59:42):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio,
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com