Encore: S03 Ep. 1 - Adam’s Cheating Boyfriend

This week we’re in session with Adam, who struggles to trust himself and set boundaries in his relationships. We help him to see how his avoidance is related to unprocessed grief from his childhood and then take steps toward a new path forward.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
in their lives.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
This week, a man with unprocessed grief from his childhood
struggles to trust himself and to set boundaries in his relationships.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
I was kind of head over heels for him at
the beginning. There were a few red flags where I
started to be a little bit concerned. I did kind
of do mental gymnastics trying to justify his lies first.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
A quick note, Dear Therapists is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychologe advice, and is not
a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

(01:16):
you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use it in
part or in full, and we may edit it for
length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names
have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
Hey Laurie, Hey guy.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
So what do we have today?

Speaker 2 (01:31):
So today we have a letter about relationships. So here's
the letter, Dear therapists. My mom passed away when I
was nine years old. Even though I was very young,
I was incredibly close to her and felt like I
had a deep and special connection with her. My family
and I were with her when she died at home,
and this moment has always stuck with me. I've never

(01:53):
been able to share this experience with anybody, despite it
being the most painful thing I've gone through, and it's
still something I think about very often. I'm fortunate to
have a loving family. However, we never really talked about
my mum's death or the impact it had on us,
and I feel that this has created an enormous amount
of distance between us all. My relationship with my father

(02:14):
is particularly distant and his lack of communication throughout my
life has often left me feeling very alone. We have
also had some big clashes in the past, including one
very painful argument regarding my mom's wedding ring and who
she left it for after she passed away. On top
of this, I've struggled to have a healthy romantic relationship.

(02:35):
Almost all of the people I've had a relationship with
have cheated on me or lied, and I've often accepted
behavior which, upon reflection, was totally unacceptable. I know that
I have some attachment issues after my mom passed away,
and I have been trying hard to work through that,
but I feel a bit lost as to what I
need to do to try and build healthy relationships with

(02:56):
a romantic partner, and also my family love to hear
any advice you may have, Adam Well.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
I think it's great that Adam is writing to us
and realizes that there might be some connection between the
unprocessed grief with his mom and what he's struggling with
in his romantic relationships.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
I agree, and I think it's interesting that he's been
unable to talk about the death with anyone, not just
with his family who are reluctant to talk about it.
But he's not found anyone in his life, not a friend,
not a lover that he felt comfortable discussing it with.
And that's something I'm curious about. So there's a lot
we need to find out here. Let's go and talk
to him.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists. Adam.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
Hi, Laurie, Hi Guy. Thank you for having me. I
really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
You're very welcome and thank you for coming on the show.
Tell us a little bit about yourself, just about your
current life. How old you are so we have a
general picture of you.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Okay, So I'm thirty one, I'm single, I live alone.
I now live abroad, originally from the UK, but I
moved away from home when I was about eighteen, so
quite young. I went back to study, but as soon
as I could, I left the country and moved abroad.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
Tell us a little bit about your relationships that you
wrote to us about. When was the last time you
were in a relationship, how long do they tend to last?
And what has happened.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
Sure, So, my last relationship ended about two years ago,
and I was in that relationship for about two years.
It started fairly quickly. I think it was within four
weeks we decided that we would be boyfriends together. I
was kind of head over heels for him, but at

(05:10):
the beginning there were a few red flags where I
started to be a little bit concerned. But because of
my previous relationships where I've been cheated on before, I
decided to just start afresh. It wasn't fair for him
to be under that same bracket, as I thought, you know,
it's a new relationship, it's a new guy, so it's
only fair to give him a fresh start.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
To what were the red flags?

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, so it was there were several things. I mean,
I think at the beginning of the relationship, I mean,
I had made very clear that I wanted this to
be a very honest relationship. So I think upfront I
said about how important honesty was to me. Then I
noticed some little lies coming through here and there, nothing

(05:55):
too big, just things like him lying about where he
was and what he was doing. Later on, I found
out that he was taking a holiday, and he was
going on holiday with a guy. At first, I was
a little bit funny about it, but I thought, you know,
it's that they could just be friends, so that's fine.
But as time went on, you know, I was never

(06:17):
allowed to know who this person was. I was never
now to meet them, So that was one big red
flag that I had, But I just kind of brushed
it aside, thinking that, you know, it was probably just
in my head and I needed to relax a little bit.

Speaker 4 (06:33):
What strikes me is that you said there were some
red flags, nothing too big, Just like he lied about
where he was and who he was with. Yeah, that's
not a little thing in a relationship. So I just
wonder how you come to think of that as as
a little thing.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
I think I'm just putting it into proportion to the
things that later came. Things started to get really out
of hand in terms of his lying.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
You're just starting this relationship and he's already lying about
where he is, and then he actually refuses to give
you information about who he's going away on holiday with.
It's obviously very suspicious that he's not willing to tell you.
There's obviously something he's hiding. How are you able to
put that aside? What were the justifications you gave to
yourself about why you can maybe put something that significant aside.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
That's a good question, and I'm not sure how I
did it, but I did kind of do mental gymnastics
trying to justify his lies. And I think I was
really just head over heels and really liked him and
really believed him when he said there wasn't anything to
worry about. So I did just put my trust in him.

(07:47):
I tried to ignore the fact that, you know, these
kinds of things that happened to me in the past
and start afresh. I had also been very clear from
the start, you know, before we actually agree to start
a relationship together, that was going to be the thing
that was like, couldn't negotiate on, Like I just wanted
complete honesty, and so I think I took him at

(08:09):
his word, even though there were these obvious red flags.

Speaker 4 (08:12):
Did you confront him at some point about the fact
that he was being secretive and that he had lied
about his whereabouts in the past.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
I did. I did, and it wasn't met very well.
He turned it around and made it seem like I
was being very intrusive and overly possessive, which of course,
when somebody says that to you, you do immediately back off,
because that's not the kind of boyfriend that I wanted
to be. When that happened, it really made me think like, oh, okay,

(08:44):
maybe I am overthinking this too much. It kind of
made me take a step back and think, just okay, relaxed.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
So how did things progress with this guy?

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Well, it wasn't until that holiday that he took where
things really started to become clear that he was lying
about lots of things. I found out that he had
invited several guys to go on that holiday actually, and
whilst he was there, he was using all these dating apps.

(09:12):
He later admitted that he did meet people when he
was away on holiday, and so obviously I was devastated
by that. When I confronted him about this, well he
was still on holiday. He immediately went into like apology
mode and it was just endless emails and messages and
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, which made me think, Okay,
like he's messed up, he's messed up, and maybe I

(09:35):
need to rethink about giving him a second chance.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
Have you given people second chances like that in your
other relationships?

Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yeah? Yeah, I have done several times pretty much for
the same thing, lying cheating. It's been pretty much the
same topics each time.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
And given that the second chances haven't worked out so well,
what made you think I'm going to give this guy
a second chance.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
I found it very, very difficult to let go of
the relationship. Like I said, I was head over heels.
I was really into him, and I think in my
mind at that point it seemed just like when I
was younger as well. I made mistakes, so I thought,
you know, people do change, People mess up and then

(10:23):
they learned from it, but he didn't.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
So you know, it's interesting, Adam, because you said you've
had other relationships where people lied and cheated and asked
for a second chance, and you gave them the second chance,
and they continued to lie and cheat. So then you
do that a second time. And the question is when
you miss up by giving people second chances after lying

(10:46):
and cheating repeatedly, do you learn from it?

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah, that's interesting. I've not really thought about it like
that before. I think more and more I've become the
very intolerant of lying, and I've been trying to notice
these red flags sooner than I had before and take
them more seriously. But still I think I had that

(11:12):
thing in my mind which just kind of talks me
out a bit and talks me down, and yeah, it's
just not very helpful for building a healthy relationship.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, I think the thing is that you start the
relationship with the right statement. And I'm going to elaborate
a little bit. You've been hurt before. You didn't say
that part to us, but I'm assuming you've said that
to them, and therefore honesty is very important to me.
I have a zero tolerance policy for lying. Then you
catch him on small eyes like where he was, and

(11:43):
the zero tolerance turns into tolerance, and so the messaging
to him becomes I have a zero tolerance policy for lying,
but if I catch you and a lie, I'll forgive you.
And there's the mixed message that you give him about
his untruths, and so he knows that you really are
again but you will forgive it. And that's not the

(12:03):
message you want to send. The message you want to
send is I'm against it, and you know there will
be consequences if it continues. But do you see that
despite your intention, the message you're giving in your actions
by forgiving. It's confusing.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
No, you're exactly right. It's all kind of empty, empty
threats or empty promises of you know, if this happened,
this is how I'm going to walk away, this is
what's going to happen. But actually, in the end, it
never did. I just kept tolerating it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (12:37):
The other thing I'm thinking about is how it doesn't
sound like he cared much about how much this hurt you.
And as guy was saying, you have a history with this,
he was aware of it, so you would think he
would be extra sensitive to your needs there. And when
he did apologize and send that string of apology because

(13:00):
he was caught when he was on holiday, it was
more about he wanted you to forgive him. I didn't
get the sense that it was about I've really hurt you,
I've really betrayed your trust. I know this is going
to be really hard to repair. This must have been
devastating for you.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
That's exactly right. And later on, when there were all
these other things that came out, the same thing happened
where I'd get endless messages and endless emails and it
was a lot of words, but there wasn't much meaning
behind it. There was a lot of you know, I
even said to him at one point. You know, there's
a difference between saying sorry and an apology. You know,

(13:39):
anybody can say sorry, but an apology is really sort
of taking time to think about what you did, how
much it hurt, and how to move forwards. And there
was none of that.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
Have you had any relationships, even if short, that you
would consider successful and that maybe it didn't work out,
it just didn't, you know, make the leap from infatuation
to love or some but that there was honesty, there
was good communication, you felt heard, scene supported. Did you
have any experiences like that?

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah? Actually, after my last relationship, the one that was
pretty much a disaster, about seven months later, I decided
to try dating again and I met somebody who was
very nice and he had also been in the same
situation as I had been. His ex boyfriend had cheated
a lot and treated him quite badly, so we kind

(14:29):
of bonded over that experience. And it was such a
different experience from with my ex. There was just this
feeling of calm. There wasn't this feeling of secrecy or
things being hidden, and it didn't last very long. It
was only about four maybe five months and he moved away,
So it ended purely because of that. Yeah, that was
like a big shock to the system, because you know,

(14:53):
while it was very positive, there was a piece of
me that was thinking things are going a little bit
too smoothly. You know, when is something gonna come up,
or when is this big surprise going to happen, because
it's bound to happen again.

Speaker 4 (15:07):
Right when you said that there was this feeling of calm,
I was wondering if there was also a feeling of
when is the other shoe going to drop? This feeling
of constant, low level.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
Dread exactly exactly that was the fear. I didn't act
upon it. I wasn't questioning or asking all these things.
I kind of just decided to go with the flow
and see how it went. But there was that feeling
of things are going a little too well. And I've
been here before where things just seemed great. But looking back,

(15:40):
I think it really was just that we were able
to bond over that experience and just knowing that's sort
of this unspoken thing between us that we wouldn't ever
do that to each other.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
Did you know from the beginning that he was going
to move away, and if you didn't, was that upsetting
to you?

Speaker 3 (15:58):
It was upsetting, but he was moving away to pursue
his career, and so I said to him, like, I
fully support that. You've got to do what's right for
you in your life right now. It was very sad, though,
because I think we were reaching the point where we
were going to be together. He had met my friends,

(16:19):
I'd met his friends, which was a big thing for me,
and things just felt good. And the way that he
spoke to me, the way he treated me, was just
something that I hadn't experienced in a long time. So
it was sad to say goodbye to that.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
And so was there any conversation about maybe finding a
way to stay together, like you going to where he was,
or doing a long distance relationship, or ultimately figuring out
a way that you could be in the same place
together given how well it was going for both of you.

Speaker 3 (16:53):
One of my friends had brought that up, but at
the time it just didn't seem viable. I have a
business here, so I wasn't able to and you know,
he was studying a new career, so you know he
was going to be meeting lots of new people and
going to be very busy, and only four months that
would be we had been together, so it seemed it

(17:13):
would be a little bit too quick to make that
step forwards of you know, could we move to the
same country together, could we even live together? You know,
it seemed a little bit too fast, and it felt
quite natural just to let it go and say goodbye.

Speaker 4 (17:30):
That ended maybe about a year and a half ago.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yes, that's right, Adam.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
What's so encouraging there is that small, short relationship gave
you a taste of what it should feel like when
you don't have to be anxious and worried and checking
up and not getting information and catching small discrepancies and
truth and those kinds of things. When someone's communicative and
can show up for you and has the same priorities

(17:55):
and values that you do in terms of honesty and cheating,
you got to take of that. I'm curious, since then, then,
have you been able to keep that taste going in
your latest elections of people you dated?

Speaker 3 (18:11):
Well, since him, I haven't dated anybody. And you know,
after that relationship, I kind of made the choice that no,
I think I just need to take time and be
with myself, and that is kind of extended into you know,
I'm single, I don't need to have anybody. But I
think part of it is a bit worried that, you know,

(18:32):
I'm going to find somebody again, and this whole cycle
of lying and cheating is going to thought again, and
I just don't have the energy for that anymore. It's
just too emotionally draining.

Speaker 4 (18:44):
I want to just go back to my question from earlier.
So were only together four months and he was leaving
to go change careers. So he must have known at
some point in those four months, pretty early on that
he would be leaving, right.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah, that's interesting actually, because things were going incredibly well,
and towards the end, I noticed he started to distance
himself quite quickly compared to how close we were. He
distanced himself quite quickly. So I did confront him and
ask him like, what is going on, Like are you,
you know, changing your mind about us? And that's when

(19:22):
he told me that he was leaving. And he also
thought it was a good idea that we kind of
pumped the brakes considering that he would be leaving.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
But here's another example of even though he didn't cheat
on you, there seemed to be open lines of communications
compared to your other relationships. This was a big omission
that he had this thing going on that he was
going to be leaving, and instead of telling you that,
he just pulled back and then you had to confront him.

(19:53):
And then he was honest with you about what was happening,
but he wasn't proactive about coming to you and saying
here's what's happening. So I think when you talk about
this year and a half of feeling like, well, I
don't need anyone, it sounds like from a very young
age you've been quite lonely. Your mother died when you
were nine, your family didn't talk about it, You've had

(20:18):
some difficulty with your father, and you've had these relationships
that have been very distressing. And I can see why
it might feel safer to say I would rather be
self sufficient than acknowledge my desire to have a partner.

(20:40):
But I think you wrote to us because you do
have a desire to.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Have a partner.

Speaker 4 (20:45):
You just want to have a partner in a way
that you haven't quite experienced yet and want to figure
out how to do that. And so I think when
we talk about honesty, let's start with honesty towards yourself,
which is, it'll be really important for you to be
honest with yourself that you do have this desire that

(21:05):
you are lonely, that you would like to have a satisfying,
mutually fulfilling, trusting relationship. When other people lie to us,
sometimes we end up lying to ourselves. It just becomes
such a part of the atmosphere that there's just nobody
acknowledging the truth. So I want if anyone's going to

(21:25):
be honest with you, I want you to be honest
with you.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, now I think you're right. I think I noticed
that in hindsight afterwards with my ex that there were
so many red flags at one point, and I was
just turning a blind eye, and I asked myself why
I was doing that. I don't think I realized at
the time I was lying to myself that these things
weren't really happening when it was quite obvious that they were.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
And so it's interesting there, Adam, because two things that
are important to you, honesty and trust are the things
you need to repair within yourself in a way. The honesty,
as Laur just explained, and the trust as well. And
you to trust yourself. Means that when you say I
won't accept something, you indeed won't and you won't turn

(22:14):
a blind eye to so many incidences of that very
thing that you said you won't accept. When you set
a standard for yourself that then you reflect to the
other person, But then you don't maintain that standard, you
begin to lose trust in yourself as well. So both
honesty and trust are things you need to repair within
yourself in your own internal dialogue before you can repair

(22:39):
them outside.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
I have been avoiding it, I think, deep down, if
I ask myself, it has been more about me avoiding
being hurt. And there are a lot of excuses as
to why, you know, my career, I'm too busy, I this,
that and the other, But actually I think it's those
are all just excuses.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
Can we hear a little bit more about where some
of this might have started. Can we hear a little
bit more about what happened when you were nine?

Speaker 3 (23:08):
Yeah? So my mom passed away when I was nine
years old. She had cancer. She was diagnosed when I
was about four years old, but of course I wasn't
really aware of what was going on until I was
about seven eight. That's when I really started to get

(23:28):
a deeper understanding of her illness and what that meant.

Speaker 4 (23:33):
You got a deeper understanding because your parents communicated that
to you, or because you just intuited it from watching
what was going on around you.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
Both, I think both. My dad was very honest with us,
especially towards the end. We would have family meetings where
we would sit down and he would tell us, you know,
the condition that my mom was in. But also before that,
I would notice that I spent so much of my
time with her as a kid, and there are a

(24:04):
lot of times where I could see that she was
just really really struggling. And at school as well. I mean,
all the teachers knew as well, so they would pull
me aside sometimes and kind of try and get me
to talk about it or ask me if I'm okay.
So there was just a lot of things that I noticed.
My dad did, like speak to us very honestly about
what was going to happen.

Speaker 4 (24:26):
What about your mom, did she speak to you about
what was happening?

Speaker 3 (24:30):
No, that's a good question. I think actually in all
of these family meetings, I think my mom found it
probably too difficult to be there. You know, I have
two sisters, and I think she probably thought it was
going to be too difficult to see our reaction when
we were told that she was dying and that, you know,

(24:51):
there was nothing that could be done to stop that.

Speaker 4 (24:54):
I'm sure there was a period when she thought that
she might be able to get through the cancer. Did
she ever say to you, hey, I'm sick, but we're
treating it, and you know, we're hoping it's going to
be okay. It just was never acknowledged that she was
sick by her.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
I have no memories really of her talking about it.
I remember when she was, you know, in her last
few days, she spoke to us because we were with her,
and you know, she said that she didn't want us
to be upset about what was happening. Other than that,
I don't have any memories of her, you know, actively

(25:37):
talking about it with us. I think she probably tried
to avoid talking about it as much as possible.

Speaker 4 (25:46):
I can understand why, as your mother, it must have
been so painful for her to imagine how upsetting it
would be for you and your sisters to lose her.
But the message that she gave trying to protect you
was don't be upset about this incredibly life changing, upsetting thing.

(26:06):
And I'm thinking about how you started the conversation today saying, yeah,
he didn't tell me where he was and he was
not truthful about that, but it was just small things.
I wasn't really upset. So this idea that you're not
supposed to be upset about something that is incredibly upsetting

(26:28):
has lived inside of you for quite a long time.
She wasn't saying, I know this is going to be
really upsetting. I love you so much. It's so painful
to know that I'm not going to be here for you.
It's okay, don't be upset, but I'm dying, but don't
be upset. And I understand her intention was loving, but

(26:51):
the message is something that you seem to keep living
out in your relationships.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, it's interesting. With many different things, that's been the
case where I, you know, something might be quite painful,
and I don't give it the space that it probably needs,
and I do minimize it and I avoid talking about
it with lots of things. But I mean, especially you

(27:17):
know the topic of my mom. I've never really shared
it with anybody, even like my close relationships. It's something
that I feel like I shouldn't burden them with that.
It's something that people don't need to hear. It's a
lot to take in, So I just don't.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
But that there is the legacy of that last wish
of your mom, don't be upset, And I think that
you internalize that to mean that your feelings can be
a burden to other people. And I'm wondering that was
your mom. You mentioned that teachers pulled you out to
check in and see how you were doing because they

(27:58):
knew what was going on. But in your family, in
these family meetings, in one on ones with your dad
or your sisters, was there any discussion of how you felt,
not just what was going on, but how you felt
about what was going on. Was that something that was
discussed in the family.

Speaker 3 (28:16):
No, from my memory, no, it was more about the
things that were happening and what will happen. We didn't
actually talk much about how we felt, you know, before, during,
and after, we never really had that discussion.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Have you ever tried in your family since to have
a talk with anyone, whether your sisters or your dad,
about how you felt about your mom dying when you
were so young, No, we haven't.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
You know, when it comes to my mom's birthday and
her death anniversary. We were all share a message saying
that we're thinking about her. That's as deep as it's gone.
I mean, when we're all together, we might share a
couple of memories here and there, but we never talked
about the actual experience of what we went through as

(29:09):
a family.

Speaker 4 (29:11):
How old were your sisters when your mom died?

Speaker 3 (29:14):
I was nine. I had one sister that was eleven
and thirteen, So.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
You were really the youngest and the least able probably
to know how to talk about what was going on.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, so you're nine years old and your mom passes away.
What was the grieving like for you? We were to
see you then, what would we be seeing that was
going on with you? So you weren't talking about how
you felt, but how were you managing? What did it
look like to see you managing in the aftermath?

Speaker 3 (29:47):
When my dad told us that she was going to die,
that was a moment that we all broke down as
a family. And also the night that she did, she
died at home. She decided she wanted to be at
home for her last few days. I mean I was
hysterically crying watching it happen. In front of me, and

(30:12):
I think the following days. I mean I remember bits
and pieces, but a lot of it is just kind
of blank. I mean, I know that I was really
hurt and really upset, but as very little that I
remember about what happened after that she died.

Speaker 4 (30:27):
When you got the news that your mother was going
to die, and you said you broke down and were crying,
was there anyone there to comfort you? What happened to
that moment?

Speaker 3 (30:37):
I remember it quite clearly, and we were all sat
in different places in our living room, and I think
we all just broke down. We didn't know come together
or embrace each other or anything like that. We all
kind of just sat in our own place and cried separately.

Speaker 4 (30:54):
And no one came and hugged you or tried to
comfort you in any way.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
I'm sure my dad maybe did at some point, but
that wasn't something that he really did too much from
my childhood. He didn't really hug and.

Speaker 4 (31:08):
Once you got that news, your mom wasn't in the
room when that news was delivered to you, So did
everybody just not acknowledge it to your mom? Meaning nobody said, hey, mom,
we're so sad. Dad told us that you're going to die,
so you just carried on with your mom as if

(31:30):
things were normal. Nobody acknowledged that this news had been
delivered to the three of you.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
No.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
No, So there's something that you learned there very young,
which is you can have huge feelings for really good reason,
and you have to carry them by yourself. You don't
share them with people. People don't ask you about them,
you don't ask other people who you know are having

(31:57):
similar feelings about theirs. This idea of you have to
go on as if things are normal. And I'm saying
that in that way because it's a bit the rationalization
you had about the cheating with the longer relationship, which
is that there was a part of you that just

(32:18):
wanted to go on as if things were normal. You
had to learn how to compartmentalize or put aside your
feelings or just sit with them yourself without being able
to share them from a really young age. You've gotten
really good at it, at being able to sit with
big feelings and not have them validated by anyone, and

(32:38):
then you end up questioning their validity because if you
couldn't even get validation for how horrible and difficult it
was when your mom was dying and then died in
the home and in front of you, and that couldn't
get validated externally, verbally or in other kinds of ways.

(32:58):
Then that's the legacy that you kind of bring forth.
The idea of my feelings won't get validated, there's no
point in really talking about them too much.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't until quite recently that somebody, you know,
I've been doing therapy as well, that I was asked,
how who do you share this stuff with? Who do
you share these memories with about your mom or that experience?
And it was only then that I kind of looked

(33:30):
back and I thought, for over twenty years, I haven't
shared it with anybody. You know, there are very specific
things about that experience which even the closest people in
my life, I'd never shared that with them at all.

Speaker 4 (33:47):
Can you tell us a little bit about what happened
between you and your dad since then? Did your father
remarry or was it you and your sisters and your
dad after that?

Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, so my family's a little bit complicated. He didn't remarry,
but he was in a very long term relationship. I
think when I was about eleven, he got into a
new relationship and they were together for about ten years.
They broke up in the end. So she was a
big part of my life growing up, but she didn't

(34:22):
have much experience with kids. She kind of just got
thrown in with three teenagers at that point.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
When she moved in, did the house still have the
presence of your mom and it meaning there was still
pictures of for you kids, so that both things could
co exist. There's the memory of your mom and then
there's this new person in the house. Was there any
kind of presence of your mom that continued in the
house after she died?

Speaker 3 (34:49):
You know, when she moved in, a lot did change.
A lot changed quite quickly. You know, the color of
the walls, you know the decorations, and it was a
very very different dial to what we had before. There
were a few pictures I think of my mum in
the house, but not many, not many at all.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
What was that like for you when she moves in
and the house changes, because as kids, that often feels
like a bit of the betrayal in terms of your
mom or being replaced, et cetera. Do you remember how
you felt about her moving in and about the I'm
going to guess that nobody asked you how you felt
about her moving in, But correct me if that's incorrect.

(35:33):
But do you remember how you felt about her moving
in and those changes?

Speaker 3 (35:37):
No, you're right, I don't think anybody did ask me.
But it did feel like a betrayal. I don't think
I have a voice that it felt like a lot
of my mum's essence was being quite like literally being
painted over, you know. And yeah, it was sad. It
was sad to see these things that you know, I

(35:58):
considered a a home be changed now. It was quite
confusing as well.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
There wasn't a lot of awareness of how having a
connection to your mom would be important to the kids
in the house. It seems like not only were you
not asked about it, but there was just a lack
of awareness that there might even be feelings about it.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think because it wasn't something that we
talked about. For me, it just seemed somewhat normal, and
you know, with somebody else moving into the house, it
was already a big change. It was like a big
change to the way that we did things and our schedules.

(36:47):
And it was also at the point of time in
my life where I was changing as well as changing school,
and all these new things were happening. It was overwhelming,
and I was very little discussion about what was going on.

Speaker 4 (37:01):
Did you have friends at school at that time.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
I had one good friend at the time when I
was quite young. I mean, a lot of my friends
knew that my mom had passed away, but it was
never something that we talked about.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
You said that you left home and home being home
and country when you were really young. It sounded a
little bit like you were in a hurry to lead.
Tell me if that's the case, and tell me, if so,
why you were in a hurry to leave.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
No, you're right, it was pretty much as soon as
I turned eighteen, getting on a plane and going halfway
across the world. I think there was just a lot
about my home life which I wasn't very happy about.
I did feel alone. I don't think at that point
I had many people in my life that I would
have considered close. It just made sense to me to

(37:52):
get up and completely change the environment and to see
what happened. And in many ways it was very good.
I made lots of really close friends by doing that
and had lots of great experiences. But You're right, it
was a get up and go as quickly as I could.

Speaker 4 (38:08):
You talked a little bit in your letter about the
struggles that you've had with your dad. Can you tell
us about those.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah. From a young age, I was very close with
my mom, and I always was a little bit scared
of my dad, not because he was, you know, a
bad guy or anything. It was just, you know, sometimes
he could lose his temper and I found that a
little bit scary, and so from a young age, I
was always quite kept my distance from him and was

(38:37):
spent all my time with my mom. After my mom
passed away, we did spend time together, and we would
have some pretty big arguments as well. We had like
a few big blowouts. Even up until recently, we've had
some huge arguments. You know. There be certainly been times

(38:57):
where I've been the instigator or pushing his buttons, but
I think a lot of them has also been him
unfairly being angry at me over something and even afterwards
not quite getting an apology. It's kind of the same
thing where it's a sorry, but it's not really a

(39:17):
deep apology about what happened and what went wrong.

Speaker 4 (39:21):
I'm just noticing how you minimize his anger. You said, well,
I kind of avoided him when I was younger because
he had a little bit of a temper. You know,
a temper from an adult when you're young and small
is incredibly scary, very frightening to see an adult with

(39:41):
that big kind of rage, even if other times he's
very loving and kind. I just want you to notice
how much you minimize the experiences that happened to you
that elicits some kind of emotion in you, like fear
or sadness, or even your own anger at your boyfriend

(40:05):
for cheating or at your father for being angry with you.
These external things get minimized, and then you don't allow
yourself to feel your feelings because you're not really acknowledging
how these things are affecting you.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
Yeah, it's interesting. A friend actually pointed that out to
me not too long ago, where they said, you know, you,
even when you're telling somebody about something bad that happened,
you always kind of give a little clause at the
beginning at the end, where for example, with my ex,
I would say, you know, I wasn't a perfect boyfriend either,

(40:42):
so obviously I didn't do anything to the same levels
as you did, but there would always be some kind
of bookended by these things about myself.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
You mentioned in your letter an incident with your mom's
wedding and that was a big dispute with your dad
who that would be left for. Can you tell us
about what happened there?

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, it was all quite dramatic. My elder sister she
when she got married, my dad decided to give her
the wedding ring, and my brother in law at the
time was very gracious. He came to me and my
other sister and asked if we felt okay with the
ring going towards my elder sister. I was totally fine
with it. I felt very happy that it would go

(41:28):
to her and she was going to start this family
and it was going to be great. But a few
weeks later I got an email from my auntie and
she was the one who had been taking care of
the ring, and the email was worded in such a
way that made me question why she was sending this email.
And she asked me if I was sure that I

(41:50):
was okay with the ring going to my sister, and
I said, of course, why would I have a problem,
And she told me, well, actually, Mom asked me to
keep the ring for you for when you were ready
to get married. The ring was kept in the photo
frame of a picture of me and my mom. I
started to question a lot of things as well, like

(42:12):
it makes sense that it went to my auntie rather
than my dad because he's so disorganized and you know,
has a terrible memory. And a friend pointed out as
well that actually, it kind of makes sense that you'd
leave it to the boy in the family because they
would probably use it to propose. So I decided, with
no intention of trying to get the ring at all,

(42:34):
to talk to my dad about it. And I started
the conversation by saying, first of all, that this has
nothing to do with like the thing, like I don't
want to get anything from this, but also it was
super important that there were no arguments in the family
about this, and he agreed to that. And when I

(42:55):
started to tell him what my auntie had told me,
he just immediately shut it down. He said, no, there
was no way that my mom would have left me
the ring, and that if I was so desperate for
a ring, that I could have his wedding ring after
he died. And at that point I just I think
I just hung up the phone and he didn't keep
the promise. He brought it up with my auntie and

(43:17):
they had a falling out over it as well. Luckily
there on good terms now, but I think at the
time it was quite heated.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
There was something so moving to hear that your mom
thought so much about it that she left it for you,
with this picture of her and you together, gave it
to her sister, knowing her husband was disorganized for the
one day, years in the future, years and years in

(43:46):
the future from where she was. You might want to propose,
and you might want the ring. What was it like
for you to find out that she had given such
thought to it, that she had asked to do that
that your aunt had kept for so many years. What
was that like to hear that?

Speaker 3 (44:04):
It was such a huge shock that nobody had ever
mentioned this to me. And on some level it felt
like I had communicated with my mom all this time
after she had passed away. It felt like she had
sent me a message. I think I spent a long

(44:24):
time just crying, because it really did feel like after
all that time, we still had that special connection that
I had when I was a kid, and that she
was thinking about me so far ahead and thinking about
all these things that I would do in my life.
So yeah, it was incredibly meaningful. But then again, on

(44:47):
the other hand, it felt like, well, is this real
like because apparently it's not. According to my dad.

Speaker 4 (44:53):
It sounds like the experience that you have repeatedly with
people when you confront them with something that you know
and they tell you that that's not what's happening. So
you say, hey, you going on holiday. This doesn't sound right. Oh, no,
you're being paranoid. So I think that you do know
a lot, but you've had this experience repeatedly of being

(45:18):
told that what you know is not true, and that
can be incredibly confusing and it can really get in
the way of trusting yourself. And I'm so glad to
hear that you were able to feel when you were
told that your mom had left this to you and
that beautiful story. I was tearing up hearing that part

(45:39):
about the photo and how you were nine years old
and she thought, I can't be there for him, but
I'm going to connect with him in this way that
I have him in mind, and I want him to
know that I have him in mind. That's so lovely
and you were able to feel that, and then you
went to your father and he denied that those were

(46:00):
the facts. But what he couldn't deny was your experience.
And that's the part I want you to hold on to.
Nobody can take your experience away from you unless you
let that. And it sounds like in your relationships you
often let people take your experience away from you. I'm
feeling this, but no, I'm not going to feel this
because they're telling me this other thing.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
Yeah, that sounds pretty right to me. It's in many
different aspects. I feel like I'm often being told that, no,
it's not that way, it's this way, And like you said,
it's very confusing and very disorientating, and it's hard to
know which way is up.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
Are you dating now? Did you say? Are you still
on the shelf with that?

Speaker 3 (46:47):
I have a dating app, and you know, I talk
to people here and there, and on occasion, I might
talk to somebody that I think, Oh, this person's interesting,
and then when it gets to the point of okay,
let's meet up, I generally make excuses. I just think, like, oh,

(47:08):
I just now, it's not a good time. There's a
lot going on and it never gets to the point
where I go on a date.

Speaker 4 (47:17):
I just go back to one thing with your aunt.
So when she told you this, you said, you've really
never talked about your mom's death with anyone. Was there
an opening there to talk with your aunt about your
mom's death?

Speaker 3 (47:34):
You know, recently I did bring something up about my mom,
and for me, I felt like I had said a
little bit too much about how I felt growing up,
and this was all done by message, so it wasn't
a great medium to do it. And it wasn't until
the next day, I think she replied saying like, oh

(47:54):
that you know, you've given me a lot to think about,
you know, just talking about my experiences as a kid,
and that made it immediately made me feel like, oh,
I've shared too much. I shouldn't have said that.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
What is it you said?

Speaker 3 (48:07):
I think it was that our family would have benefited
from therapy like family therapy, that we never spoke about it,
and I understood that it was probably because we were
all in pain, I think, I said. I don't think
it's as a coincidence that I and actually my other
sister moved halfway across the world as soon as we

(48:29):
could I think there was something going on with us
that that made us want to leave as quickly as
we could.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
And that's what your aunt said. You're giving me a
lot to think about because there's a bit of an
invitation in what you're saying to her to have a conversation.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
It made me feel like I said just a little
bit too much, that perhaps I was saying that she
wasn't there enough for us as kids. I think maybe
she started to feel a little bit guilty that she
hadn't been there enough to support us. I might be wrong.
This is just coming from what I think, but it

(49:07):
made me feel like, Okay, this is not something I
can keep talking about with her. I didn't want to
make her feel any guilt or any burden.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
So we're back to burden again. Guy had said that
your note was maybe an invitation, but I think that
she in her response was offering you an invitation too.
She wasn't saying everybody did the best they could, or
she didn't not respond. She said, this has given me
a lot to think about, which is very open ended,

(49:37):
and it makes me feel like there could have been
a potential opening there. But then your younger feelings came
in of I don't want to be a burden. Don't
be upset. Everybody did the best they could. However, you
justify it to yourself. You know, I don't want to
bring up with my boyfriends that they're cheating or lying

(49:59):
because I don't want to burden people with my emotional reaction.
That's really interesting to me how you interpret something very
differently from the way that I'm hearing it, not being
in your experience. You interpret it as, Oh, I said
too much, I was a burden. She must feel accused.

(50:20):
You create all these stories around it. You just don't
know if those stories are there.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought of her response in
that light, and now you say it, it makes a
lot more sense that she was. It was more of
a positive. I think that she was oneting to take
some time to think about what I said.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
The thing that stops you from having these conversations different
feelings of yes, my feelings would be a burden, or
the other person might not want to But any kind
of interpretation always leads to the same path of so
let's not have these kinds of conversations. And that's the
thing to pay attention to. And despite the evidence all

(51:01):
roads lead to Okay, I won't have the conversation, I
won't date. I'll use the app, but basically not really.
You know, you're swiping and you're chatting, but you're not meeting.
There's again this big, big hesitancy to kind of engage
in the things that will evoke emotion.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. I totally see that.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
So, Adam, we have some advice for you. We would
like you to this week email or text your sisters
and your dad and tell them that you've been thinking
about your mum a lot lately, and you know that
they think about her as well, and that you would

(51:51):
like it if on the next anniversary of her death,
you all got on a call and talked about a
little bit, shared some memories of her that would make
you feel good and you would really like that. The
emphasis is that you would like that to happen. You're
owning that that's something that you want. Now, I'm sure

(52:13):
you're thinking, I don't know what kind of response is
I will get from them. Neither do we. But the
goal here is to represent how you feel, and that
is something that you would like. It is a door
you would like to open. So that's the first part
of the assignment.

Speaker 4 (52:30):
And what's important about that, as guy was saying, is
that this isn't so much about whether they respond or
if they respond in a way that you would like.
It's that you are putting what you would like out
there so that you can exercise that muscle and get
used to doing that. And that leads us into the
second part of the advice, which is that what happened

(52:51):
with your aunt is that when she told you about
the wedding ring, it happened on text or on email.
It was not where she could see you. She does
not know that you broke down crying, you had this
really lovely feeling of being connected to your mom again.
And also we think you made some interpretations about her

(53:13):
response to your other text about being a burden. We
think it was sort of potentially an invitation, and so
we would like you to contact your aunt and say
to her, you know, when you told me about the
wedding ring, it moved me so much. It was so
nice to hear something about my mom and me from you.

(53:37):
And when I sent you that other text and you
said it was a lot to think about, I was
really glad that I could share that with you. And
now that I'm in my thirties and I don't have
memories of my mom past nine years old, it would
mean so much to me if maybe you could share
with me some parts of my mom that I either

(53:59):
don't remember or happened before I was born. I just
wanted to get to know her better. I would love
to hear stories about me and my mom when I
was little. What was my mom like as a little girl,
What are some funny stories that happened in her life?
If you could help me get to know her better,
that would mean so much to me. And see what

(54:20):
happens when you open the door that way with her.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
So one last piece of advice, Adam, and that's about
your dating life. As we said, you need to restore
a sense of trust with yourself and restore that sense
of honesty with yourself, so you really listen to how
you feel and you don't marginalize it and push it aside.
And to that end, would like you to do two things.

(54:47):
Number one, we'd like you to write a pact with
yourself that you'll stick to from here on, with items
such as, since honesty is really important for me, I
will let that person know whoever the next potential boyfriend
is that it is important to me if I catch
them lying, I will let them know that that's not

(55:09):
something I can tolerate, such that if it happens again,
I will be out because I can't be in a
relationship where I'm worrying all the time that the person's
not being honest with me. But the pact is one strike,
and one strike too, they're out. And other items that
you want to put there that you know that you've

(55:31):
not done a good enough job in the past of
sticking to what's true for you and what's important for you.
It'll be easy for you to stick to a written
pact that you should have in your pocket when you
go on dates, just to remind you that this is
something that you've promised yourself. And then this week you're
on the apps, you've been chatting. We would like you

(55:52):
to set up one date, and what we want you
to note on that date is how it feels going
in there with this new determination, this pact in your pocket,
that you are going to be operating very very differently,
and that you're going to stay really close to your
truth because your truth is I don't abide the lying

(56:13):
and the cheating. I can't be in a relationship where
I'm anxious all the time because the person isn't honest.
I've tasted what it's like to be with somebody I
can trust. That's what I'm looking for. And with that
new idea in mind, would like you to know what
your experience of that first date is.

Speaker 4 (56:30):
So this is a contract between you and you, not
between you and the other person. It's between you and you.
You can't control whether other people are going to betray you,
but if you stop betraying yourself, we think you're going
to pick better partners as a result of that.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
Yeah. Now, I like that idea of making a pact
of myself and writing it out.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
I thought. And once you do that, you'll know one thing.
Somebody is going to lie to me. I'll only do
it once. Somebody's going to cheat. We'll only do it
once because I won't be there for the second time.
So that makes it feel much safer. Yeah, because it
can't keep happening, you won't let it.

Speaker 3 (57:11):
Yeah, that's an interesting way. I've never thought of it
like that. It can't happen more than once. If I
said this, this boundary or this pact. Yeah, no, I
like that idea. Thank you. I'm nervous but excited at
the same time that thank you for your advice. I
appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
You're welcome.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
You know, often as therapists, we hear something in a
first session that becomes sort of the touchstone of what
keeps getting that person stuck. And what stands out to
me was when he was talking about sitting at his
mother's deathbed and her saying to the children, please don't
be upset. And as a parent myself, I understand so

(57:56):
much of the pain his mother must have been in
and not wanting the kids to feel that. But the
message and the legacy of that moment was don't be
a burden, don't be upset. You're feeling these huge feelings,
but it's not okay to feel that, And that has
been the narrative in the family even after the mother died,

(58:17):
where they just did not talk about the immense pain
that they were all feeling in different ways. When there's
a death in a family, everybody in the family experiences
it in a different way from their own perspectives and
their own pain, and nobody felt that it was okay
to talk about it, and that is what he has

(58:37):
inherited in terms of his adult relationships.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
You're absolutely right. And the other snapshot that I have
is that scene after she dies, with all four of
them sitting in a room, each crying alone. Is the
other kind of set up there in that family. Of
what other feelings you have, it's not only we don't
talk about them, cry alone, but I'm hotened because he
did seem quite interested in breaking some of these molds

(59:05):
and having some of these conversations or trying to at
least be beyond, and he will see what happens with
the family. It feels risky and dangerous to share these
feelings when you were so early on taught not to right.

Speaker 4 (59:20):
Not only to not share them, but he came to
a place where he doesn't even trust that like when
his mom, should I feel upset with his boyfriends? Should
I be upset about this little thing? Like he didn't
tell me where he was, and it takes going on
holiday with other men for it to become something that

(59:40):
he can acknowledge is maybe not okay. It's not only
not being able to feel the feelings, but not being
able to trust that the feelings you're feeling are valid.
One thing I was so moved by was that he
said he had never really talked about any of this
with other people, and he was so open and willing

(01:00:01):
to share this with us, and I felt so honored
by this experience. I think we always feel honored that
people share their lives with us, but this one in
particular really really moved me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
You're listening to deer therapists. We'll be back after a
short break. So we heard from Adam and we gave
him a lot to do. Let's see how that went.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
Hi guy, Hi Laurie. So it's been a week and
I wanted to let you know what's happened since you
gave me your advice. The first piece was to reach
out to my family and to tell them I'd like
to do a call on my mom's death anniversary. I
actually changed it a little bit to my mom's birthday

(01:00:57):
because that's just coming up much sooner. My family were
a little slow to respond, but everybody did eventually reply,
and they all said how much they loved the idea
of taking some time to talk about memories that we
have with my mom and share some stories. So that
was really great. Secondly, I got in touch with my aunt.

(01:01:19):
I explained to her that I wanted to try to
connect more with the family on the topic of my mom,
and she was really supportive of that. It does still
feel a little uncomfortable to have these discussions, but I think,
as with anything, the more I do it, then the
more I'll get better at it. I think at first
it will probably be me trying to connect us all

(01:01:41):
in this way, but I've realized in essence, I feel
like this is a kind of way to keep my
mom alive by sharing our memories and our stories about her.
Even though that she's gone, having that closeness to her
is still very important to me, so thank you for that.
My next assignment was to write a pact with myself,

(01:02:03):
and this was really interesting because I actually had to
stop and consider what it is that I do and
don't want from a relationship, and writing it down made
it feel much more tangible rather than just some vague
ideas floating around in my head. It gave me some
confidence knowing that I can rely on this pack to
come back to whenever I feel like something might be

(01:02:25):
going wrong, and hearing you both talk about me being
honest with myself. Also made me realize that I need
to treat this promise to myself in the same way
that I would treat a promise to a friend too.
And finally, you told me to go on a date,
and I have to be honest, I was really finding

(01:02:47):
any excuse not to do this, but I did, in
fact go on a date and it was really nice.
And also, having made that pack with myself, I felt
like I was going into it much better in the
case of red flag starting to pop up. So it's
still a work in progress, but I feel like I'm

(01:03:07):
pointing in the right direction. So thank you both so
much for listening to me. I really appreciate all of
your insights and all of your advice as well. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Well. I am so pleased for Adam, and I think
one of the things that came out of this was
being able to connect some of these earlier experiences of
loss with what was happening in his relationships now and
the earlier experience of not talking about things and how
that translated to what he was doing in his relationships

(01:03:44):
now and not being able to trust himself if something
felt off.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
I agree because I think the theme with Adam was avoidance.
It was avoidance talking about his mum. It was avoidance dating.
And I think that the push we gave him really
work because he sounds less avoidant, even though he said
he did try to avoid having the date, but he
had a good experience. He sounds like he opened up

(01:04:10):
a conduit in his family to talk about his mom
again that I think everyone will end up benefiting from eventually.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
And I think the beauty of what he did was
seeing that people are really receptive. That he didn't know
how they were going to reply, and we always said
to him, it doesn't matter how they respond. What matters
is that you do it. But then as a bonus
to see and they were very receptive. And sometimes it
takes one person in the family to be that person

(01:04:39):
to start having conversations in a way that the rest
of the family wasn't able to do. And I think
the takeaway here that I think many people can relate
to is that when you avoid things, it creates so
many problems. He wasn't just avoiding things with his family
members and with the people that he was in relationships with.

(01:05:00):
He was avoiding facing these things himself. And when we
stop avoiding things with ourselves. This whole new world opens
up next week. A couple struggles with a toxic ex
spouse who's not happy about their upcoming marriage.

Speaker 5 (01:05:19):
My ex wife is not happy about the fact that
I am engaged to anyone, and she's not happy that
I'm engaged in particular to Lily.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
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help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it
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help people to find the show.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Elena Rosen, John
Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

(01:06:06):
Gutierrez and Silver Lifton and special thanks to our podcast
fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you
at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio,
Fisher Food