Encore: S04 Ep 04 - Elise’s Angry Sister

This week, we’re in session with Elise, who wants to have a better relationship with her angry older sister. We help Elise to see her sister’s perspective so she can approach her with empathy–and how to know when repair might not be possible.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront the problems in their lives and
then give them actionable advice and have them report back
to let us know what happened when they did what
we suggested.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
the woman who wants to have a better relationship with
her angry older sister wonders if that's possible.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
I feel so attacked by her and her emails that
she's made it clear my vision and my view of
the past is the right one and the correct one,
and your cors is not.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
First a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia,
use it in part orn full, and we may edit
it for length and clarity in the session you'll hear.
All names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Hey guy, Hi Laurie.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
What do we have in our mailbooks today?

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Today we have a letter from a woman who has
some conflict with her sister and is really at a
loss as to what to do. And it goes like this,
Dear therapists. I'm fifty three and I have a sister
two years older. My parents had an unhappy marriage and
divorced in the early nineties, and both happily remarried. It

(01:43):
was pretty difficult growing up, lots of arguments between them
and yelling and fighting. My sister and I were close
and got along well growing up, but we drifted apart
once she went to college. She tried for many years
to have a baby, and she suffered multiple miscarriages. She
has a boyfriend of about fifteen years. They're not married.
She also had a very good job as an associate professor,

(02:04):
but she didn't get tenure and she never worked again.
That was about fifteen years ago. She lives off her
boyfriend and off of money that my mom gives her
each month. About ten years ago, our relationship took a
nose dive. I got pregnant by my boyfriend at the time,
and I now have a nine year old son. I'm
not married and I don't have a current boyfriend, but
I do have a great job, a wonderful son, many friends,

(02:26):
and financial stability. My sister, Natalia got very angry when
she found out I was pregnant. I didn't tell her
right away, and she's still very angry that I didn't
tell her. My dad and mom were the ones who
told me to wait and not tell her until I
was further along, But once she found out, all hell
broke loose. My dad got very angry with me and
he stopped talking to me. He was already in very

(02:48):
poor health, and he died three months later while I
was still pregnant. I never got the chance to have
a real goodbye with him, and I feel that my
sister really drove a wedge between us. I've forgiven her,
but this past Christmas, she asked me if a present
for my son had arrived. I responded that yes, it
had and thanked her for the gift. She then attacked
me for not asking her about the weather where she lives,

(03:09):
because there was a bad storm there. I responded that
I don't keep up with the weather, and I hoped
she was okay, but that her email was very hurtful.
It's now nearly a month later, and she has been
sending me NonStop angry emails. She is bringing up so
many things from the past, saying she gave up her
childhood for me. She's telling me I need to see
a therapist, calling me a bully, and a bunch of

(03:31):
other horrible things. I've tried my best to tell her
I love her, but would appreciate it if she can
speak to me respectfully. She ignores me and doubles down
on her anger. To be honest, if she were not
my sister, I would not have anything to do with her.
She also attacks my mom, who is eighty five, so
I know it's not just me. Neither of us has
seen Natalia for about eleven years. She lives in seclusion

(03:53):
with her dog and her boyfriend. I see she is
in a lot of pain, but I don't like being
called names and put down and screamed at an email.
I need your help on what to do next, Elise.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
This is one of those letters where I'm much more
oriented towards what's missing in the letter than towards what's there.
What's there is that tumultuous relationship with sister. Something went wrong.
But what's not there is she thought they were very
close growing up, and her sister said, you stole my childhood.
And a lot of contradictions and different perspectives are coming

(04:28):
through here. With a sister with the parents, people are
seeing things in different ways, and so for me, I
really have a lot of questions so we can start
to get a sense of what the story actually is,
because it's clear that she has a much different perspective
than her sister does.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, and I don't think this is just a story
about the two sisters. I think this is a story
about the entire family and the dynamics that went on
and maybe continue to go on between them. I really
noted in her letter when she said, my sister hasn't
seen my mom, my mom, not our mom in eleven years,

(05:07):
And the fact that Natalia hasn't seen either of them
in eleven years is very curious, especially because the mom
is still giving Natalia money every month, so there's some
kind of transaction going on there. But there's a lot
more that we need to understand about what is going on.
And I think that what you said, Guy, about lots
of people have different perspectives on what's going on is
going to be key to how we can help a lase.

(05:30):
So let's go talk to Elise and learn more about
this family. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.
We'll be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
And I'm Guy Witch, and this is Dear Therapists.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
Hi, Elise, welcome to the show. Thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here with both of you.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Thanks for coming on. We wanted to start by understanding
what was going on in your childhood. Tell us a
little bit about what things were like in your house
growing up, what things were like between your parents, and
what your relationship and your sister's relationship was like with
each of your parents and with each other.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Sure, so we grew up in I think a pretty
nice house. Both my parents worked, they didn't get along.
My mother was sort of the breadwinner of the family,
so she was gone a lot of the time at
the office working, whereas my dad was home much more
often and I think he ended up being more of

(06:40):
the emotional support for both me and my sister. I
think both my sister and I were a little bit
afraid of my mom. She would come home and we'd
scurry around and try and make sure everything was clean,
the lights were on, the table was set, things like that.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
What would happen if things weren't the way she wanted them.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
She would get very upset, and my dad would sort
of try and protect us, and then she would just
express her disappointment, maybe go off to her office until things.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Were fixed, express it in what way, raising.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
Your voice, being very angry, and then my dad would
raise his voice and turn I think my sister and
I would run off to our bedrooms and wait until
it was safe to come out again together or separately. Separately,
so my sister and I had separate rooms. My mom
slept in one part of the house, my dad slept
in a different part of the house. I never saw

(07:36):
my parents sleep in the same room. They weren't very
affectionate with each other.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
When your parents would fight or when your mother would
get angry with the two of you, did you and
your sister ever support each other or talk about what
was going on.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
I think sometimes we would talk about it. I remember
when we were maybe ten and twelve, we brought this
to the attention to my parents. We said it didn't
seem like they were getting along and there was a
lot of arguing, and we were upset, and we suggested
they go into counseling, and they didn't go. I think
they tried to patch things up a little bit between themselves,

(08:14):
but it just felt like four separate people within the family.
When my sister went off to college, that's when sort
of the crack between us grew larger.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Tell us about some of the good times with her.
Would you hang out together, would you play together when
you were younger, would you have common friends, would you
share things with one another?

Speaker 3 (08:36):
I guess my sister was much more of the introvert,
and she would sort of sit in her room and read,
so she wouldn't really wasn't as interested in playing directly
with me. She's very good at drawings, so she drew
some pictures of my animals. We'd go on some really
nice trips with my parents, and I remember those being
fairly enjoyable.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
When you say that you and your sister were close,
and then when God I asked you, what did you
do together? I'm not hearing where the closeness was. Can
you tell me what the closeness felt like to you
or how you saw the closeness.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
She's a very good cook and baker as well, so
she'd go into the kitchen and cook some things and
bake them and then bring out and I'd eat them.
She got her driver's license before I did, so she
would drive me to some places and we'd talk in
the car and share music together. Sometimes she helped me

(09:30):
with my homework.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
So from you, and she was a pretty decent older sister.
Oh yeah, I think so when she says you stole
my childhood, can you help us understand to what she
might be referring.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
Yeah, so in these email exchanges that went on around
Christmas time, she did say that I think she feels
like she was protecting me from the arguing going on
between my parents. As she said in some of her emails,
that she sacrificed everything for me so that I could
have a normal childhood.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
What did she sacrifice? That's what we're not clear about.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
Yeah, I don't know. I tried to find out in
the emails a little bit, but she kept like going
back to just being very very angry, you know, in
all caps, that she felt like I'd stolen something for her,
She'd given everything to me, and I felt like I
didn't ask you to give up your childhood. And I

(10:29):
wish you would have told me back then or sooner.
I mean, I'm in my fifties now, and this all
happened four decades ago.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
You said what you're saying to us now, to her,
Oh I didn't. What's curious to me is that you
said she sent these long emails. There must have been
a lot of content in the emails, yes, and yet
you're still unclear about what it is that she sacrificed
or how she felt she had to sacrifice something to

(10:59):
protect you. It doesn't really matter that it happened so
long ago. The point is the feelings are still there,
but the two of you are not really able to
talk about this. It sounds like it was kind of lonely.
It wasn't a real connected family. Even when you went
to your parents and said, hey, this conflict is really

(11:19):
affecting all of us, please go to therapy, they chose
not to. I'm just curious how they reacted in the
moment to their daughters saying this family needs help, you
need help.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
I think they said, thanks for letting us know. Well,
think about it. My dad was quite faithful in terms
of his religious beliefs. He was actually a priest at
one point, so I think he was very much like
I am married for life, whereas my mother was more like,

(11:54):
you know, it's so focused on her. It was always
about her work.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
When you said, you're father was more emotionally available, what
kinds of things did you talk to him about.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
I went to like the a private Catholic school, and
the girls were just very unkind, So I talked to
him about that. And you know, my dad would make
an effort to talk to the teachers and the principal.
He would come in. Sometimes he was very good at
origami and he would do show and tell for the class.
He also helped me with my homework and my writing.
In fact, one of my application essays for college asked

(12:26):
which person I most admired and had influenced me the most,
and I picked my dad, and my mom cried and
I had to pick another topic for my essay because
it just so upset her to hear that from me
at that point, my dad remember coming into my room
and saying, I'm so sorry, but you're going to have
to pick something else.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
What was that like for you when he said that?

Speaker 4 (12:46):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (12:47):
I cried as well. It's like, but I want to
write about you. You've meant so much to me. You know.
He died ten years ago and I still miss him
very much. And it was a horrible ending when he
passed away. And that's when a lot of the conflict
with my sister really came up.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Do you happen to know what Natalia's experience was.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Did she have the same relationship with your dad that
you did?

Speaker 3 (13:11):
So, my dad and she, Laurie were very close, and
you know, my mom told me at one point that
my dad favored my sister. They were just super bonded.
I could tell that my dad really sort of preferred
my sister. I think my dad loved me as well,
but there was something between them that was very special.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
You could tell that as a kid, Yes, And how
did that feel?

Speaker 3 (13:34):
It hurt And it hurts even now trying to think
about that and what that was like, knowing that the
person like I really loved still like somebody else, And
you know, it happened later on with the disagreement that
we had that he would take her side and not mine,
and not defend me and not protect me or at
least be fair.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Did you and Natalia ever talk about the fact that
there seemed to be some favor artism going on with
your dad.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
I didn't bring it up. I don't remember having any
talks with her about that.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
So who did you talk to about that? Because it
sounds like your mom was not that emotionally available, and
I don't think.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
I talked to anyone about it. But at the time,
back then, it was more focused on my studies and
I was involved in swim team, doing homework. I don't
think I was thinking about what was going on with
my parents and my sister. I was more in the moment,
even though you weren't consciously thinking about it. These are

(14:37):
the kinds of things that we internalize. These are very
important experiences of exactly how you put it, this person
that I love love someone else more. That can be
very painful, and it can also inform relationships later on,
not just with the person who was favored, but your friendships,

(14:57):
your romantic relationships, about yourself. Have you thought about any
of that as an adult, yes, I have more so
now that I've grown up. It's really painful to think about.
And I try not to dwell on it and focus
more like on the present and put more of a rosy, positive,

(15:20):
optimistic look at my past than try and think about
what happened then and how that shapes me today. It's
just very traumatizing, I think, you know, even talking about
it now, it's just very painful.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
It sounds like Natalia someone who really wants to talk
about the past, and you're someone who, as you said,
wants to have this more kind of rosy view of
it and leave it in the past.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
I'm open to talking about it with her, It's just
I feel so attacked by her and her emails that
she's made it clear my vision and my view of
the past is the right one and the correct one,
and yours is not.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Another way to think of her emails is not My
way is the right way to think of the past.
But you are so invested alease in this rosy view
that you won't allow any of my perspective in that
might be what she's saying in her emails in a

(16:26):
very very upsetting way. That feels incredibly aggressive.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Correct.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
I'd like to go back to what you said about
when she went off to college that you started to
drift apart, and then you talked about how ten years
ago things started to really go downhill. Can you take
us through sort of those inflection points.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
So she left for college back in the day, there
was no email, so we wrote letters. We'd come back
and reconnect at Thanksgiving and Christmas, spring break, and then
we had the summer together.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
And how close were things between you? Did you transition
from big sister, little sister to friendship at any point?

Speaker 3 (17:08):
So Scenior is my big sister. Guy friends, but she's
always been my big sister. And when she came out
to the university, I had a really bad breakup and
she flew out and comforted me, which was great. She
was studying overseas and I went to go visit her
as well. Her family traveled a lot as well, So

(17:32):
you know, we spent a year in Berlin, a year
in Vienna together, which at least I remember fondly.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
How much would she be able to be vulnerable with
you because you said she's my big sister and I
still think of her that way, which puts her in
a semi parental role, and I'm curious about whether she
was able to lower that guard and be vulnerable with you,
whether you ever were able to be there for her
when she needed. Was she open to that or inviting

(18:00):
that or wanting that.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
It's a great question, guy. I think my sister is
a very private person, and I'm definitely the more outgoing
and open one. But I was open to listening to
her and talking to her. She just doesn't share a
lot of her feelings, so like in these emails that
came out over Christmas, just all of these accusations and

(18:24):
things about me not being there, not listening to her.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
When you would spend extended time periods together when you
were abroad, did.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
You fight, did you argue? I don't remember fighting, to
be honest. Did you fight as kids? Yeah? I think
when we were when we were younger. I remember one instance,
there were a bunch of root beer popsicles in the
freezer and I ate nearly the whole box and as
a result got very sick. But she was very angry
that I ate them all. But otherwise I don't think

(18:56):
we argued a lot about things, just because she was
off doing another thing. I was off doating my thing,
So you.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Didn't really get angry with her, and she didn't really
get angry with you.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah, not that I remember.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Typically siblings argue a lot, even siblings who are really
really close, and that's part of how they become close,
that there's a rupture and then there's a repair and
then they trust each other. Oh, we're having this conflict,
but we can get through it, because we always get
through it. So it's interesting that as siblings you didn't

(19:30):
really get angry with each other, which is sort of
part of the growing up process together. Not that you
should be fighting constantly, but it's just notable that you
can't really remember getting angry at one another, except for
the root be or popsicle incident.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
She broke my Madonna record. I was upset about that,
but I guess I just just like for me as
a person, maybe Laurie, I just sort of tend to
more think about the positives and not try and dwell
on what I was mad about, what I was angry about.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
She did get angry with you a couple of times
about the popsicles, about the Madonna record, so she's able
to say I'm upset about this, and this dynamic persists
today where she's saying I'm upset about this and you say,
I just want to look at the positives right right.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
What was the first time that you got a whiff
of the fact that her entire experience of her relationship
with you was very, very different than yours. When was
the first time that she started to really show you,
I have a lot of feelings that I haven't been
talking about here they come. When did that start?

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Now that you mentioned that we were on a train
on a trip, and I remember my sister saying, we know, Elise,
dad has always been an alcoholic, and that was back
when we were in our twenties.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
And what was your reaction to that? Was that news
to you?

Speaker 3 (20:55):
I was shocked, But then I started putting the little
dots together and remembering how there was always a lot
of beer in the refrigerator and then there wasn't, and
then there were empty alcohol bottles in the garbage can.
But I just wasn't really thinking about that.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Why was she saying that to you at that time?

Speaker 3 (21:12):
I think she's trying to shock me into saying, you know,
things aren't what you think they are. Your memory is
not what you think it was.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
So that's the issue what's coming across, certainly from the
stuff that you're telling us about today, but really all
along that she was feeling that I'm living in a
different reality, in part in her head because I'm the
older sister slash co parents, so I have to be
aware of everything that's going on. I can't have my
head in the sand or have this idealized version of

(21:40):
things or ignore things because I have to be the
big sister. In a way, It's almost like she assumed
this burden and now she's very angry at you for
having it. But obviously it wasn't one that you offered
her the sheet, which one she took. But she started,
even in your twenties, sharing I have a very different
perspective on life and our experiences than you. Yours are

(22:03):
quite rosy and idealized. Here's mine. Did that make you
curious to ask more and find out more from her?

Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yes? I did start asking more questions, asking how could
you say something like that? She said, remember saying, you know,
our childhood was really miserable. At least, I don't know
where you're coming up with all these visions and ideas
that it was anything other than miserable, and I would
come back with but I don't think it was that way.

(22:35):
We look at all these trips we've been on, and
we've done all these great things together, and our parents
were doing their best, and she probably thinks so is delusional.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Were you clear that what she was saying is our
childhood was miserable for me? At least?

Speaker 3 (22:54):
I think? You know, guy, at that time, I didn't
validate her enough. I was more into what was my
reaction and trying to defend our childhood rather than being
in that moment with her and saying, tell me more
and you know which, now I could do a bit better,
But back then I was still just in my twenties,

(23:17):
and I think dealing with the shock of that.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
What do you mean by shock of it? Because you
were aware of some of these things too.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
Right, I guess shock that somebody would point it out.
Somebody's going to point out the elephant in the room.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
There's often one person in the family. They're known as
the identified patients. We call them the IP, and they're
the ones who say, hey, wait a minute, something's not
right here, and everyone says, oh, no, no, no. Look
at all the trips we've been on. Look at our
parents doing their best. Look at all the opportunities that

(23:55):
we have had. We have a roof over our head,
and food on the table, and hard working parents. And
so that person becomes the crazy person, the person who
brings this up and says, well, wait a minute. Dad
was an alcoholic and mom was working all the time,
and our parents fought every day, and it was a
living hell for me. And I think that that has persisted.

(24:18):
You dealt with the hurt and the pain by denying it. Oh,
I don't want to look at that. And she dealt
with it by saying, I'm going to kind of go
off and do my thing, but I'm also going to
be a truth teller at some point. And when she
tries to do that, the family ignores her.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
I think that's correct, Laurie. I think she does feel
deeply ignored. I mean, she doesn't talk to me, she
doesn't talk to my mom, she didn't really talk to
my dad while he was still alive. I think she
buries a lot of this deep inside of her, and
then when it comes up, I guess she just lashes
out because it's so much better.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
I think that part of her perspective might be today,
you were able to be in denial and have a
quote unquote good childhood because of me, because I was
on the watchtower, because I was looking after you. The
bread that I made for you and those kinds of
things thore were things I did to distract you from
what was going on in the house. I didn't point

(25:18):
out when dad was getting tipsy or drunk. She went
to her room to escape the misery, and you didn't
have to because you didn't see it. And I think
her experiences, she's the one that enabled that for you,
and you didn't realize it. But that's part of her
anger today, like it was me that allowed you to

(25:39):
have the denial and the much better childhood, and I'm
the one that had to deal with all the actual
real problems that were around.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
I think that's quite insightful. That's probably exactly how she feels, And.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
What she's really looking for is the validation from you
of oh, yes, I can see that you're experience would
have been very, very different than mine, if that's the case.
But what I think tends to happen is that you
will say, like, oh, but that just wasn't my experience.
I just don't see that, and she experiences nandas you
invalidating her experience rather than just trying to process your own.

(26:19):
And I think that's part of where the ruptures happen
between the two of you.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
I think that's true. I think she desperately wants to
be heard, and I tried my best at least to
try and listen. But I also want to make sure
I'm heard. But I don't think she's ready to hear
anything that I have to say, because she really wants
me to hear what she has to say and validate

(26:46):
her experience.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Right, it's the validating she needs. Listening is great, but
the other person doesn't know that you've listened until you
accurately validate. And if you listen but forget the validation step,
which by the way, a lot of people do, you
might feel like I totally got it, accept the other
person doesn't know it.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
Okay, Validating doesn't mean that you had the same experience
she had. So I think that you feel like, well,
I need to explain to her that my experience was
different or I don't agree with that you're nodding. So
I can see that that is what happens between the
two of you, as opposed to being able to say,

(27:24):
I'm validating that this was her experience and I'm not
going to fight with her about her feelings. Her feelings
are untouchable. You can't tell someone you don't feel that way.
You might have felt differently, so you don't have to say,
and Natalia, I felt the same way because you didn't.

(27:46):
And that's where you get stuck. I think that you
feel that by validating her, you're saying and I also
had a miserable childhood, when you don't feel that you did,
and so you feel stuck between. I want to validate her,
but I also had a different experiences and there's a
way to do that where you can really listen and

(28:07):
learn more about her and get closer to her by
acknowledging that her experience was real. It truly was. It
was different from yours. No two siblings grow up in
the same house with the same parents, And what I
mean by that is just because you have the same
parents and you're in the same house, you're going to

(28:28):
react differently to those same parents. You two had different
childhoods in the same house, as most siblings do. Sometimes
both siblings have a wonderful childhood with the same parents,
even though it's still a different childhood in the same house.
You two had these different roles. Your parents were fighting

(28:49):
all the time. That's very unsettling for kids to see
that the people who are supposed to be stable and
calm and in charge and regulated are disregulated most of
the time. So when she comes to you and says
this was my experience and you say, oh no, she

(29:10):
increases the volume when we're not heard. We think it's
not true, but we think that if we get louder,
someone will hear us. But that just makes people tune
you out because then you're not going to hear anything
that she says, because all you can hear is the
kind of anger and aggression, and that makes you want
to turn down the volume, so you actually can't hear

(29:32):
her better. And so this dynamic just keeps repeating. She
gets louder, you invalidate, she gets even louder, you invalidate more,
and now you're just in two different places completely.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
Yeah, And I wouldn't say I was invalidating her. I
remember saying, you know, I understand that you feel you
went through all these things. You know, at the same time,
I see things differently, but.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
You see how quickly you get to I see things differently. So, yes,
you went through this. And by the way, let me
tell you my version again. My version was we had
a happy childhood. So it goes very quickly from yes,
I'm willing to listen to your experience too, but let
me tell you about mine. Let me just reiterate that

(30:16):
I had a happy childhood in that house. Do you
see how that itself can feel invalidating because she hasn't
been given some time for you to really take in
what she's saying and for her to know that you
took it in.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Okay, And I think part of the problem for you,
Elise is that you still see her as a big
sister and therefore as somebody who doesn't need as much
from you as she actually does need, because it's not
just the validation that she wants of her experience, she

(30:57):
also wants the validation that, in her own head, a
lot of her experience was there because I couldn't escape
the way you did, because I had to look out
for you, or I had to be protective of you.
And you don't seem to appreciate at least how much
I sacrificed of my own happiness to allow you to

(31:18):
have the denial, and how much that role took out
of me, and I didn't feel appreciated for it. For example,
in your letter, you mentioned that she was upset that
she wrote to you asking if your son received her
Christmas present, And I think that her experience is that

(31:39):
was a big gesture on my part to send Christmas
presents to your son because I'm still very much hurting
from all the miscarriages and the fact that I don't
have a child and you do. So it's actually difficult
for me to be supportive and to do these things.
And so yes, I really need the acknowledgment because I
am again going out of my way putting myself an

(32:00):
emotional discomfort for you in her head. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (32:07):
That makes sense? No, And I think in no way now.
And what's happened is she's just still very much grieving
in the fact that she couldn't have a child. And
I mean, I knew once that she had one miscarriage,
but in the emails that we exchanged over Christmas, she
said I had multiple miscarriages, and it's like I didn't know.
You never shared that with me and I am so sorry,

(32:30):
But if you don't tell me, how would I know?
And we haven't talked on the phone. She called me
once for my fiftieth birthday. It was very short, but
otherwise we only do email. I haven't heard her voice.
My mother also hasn't seen her in thirteen years.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
How did that pattern get established where you wouldn't see
each other or talk voice to voice.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
It happened when my father died. He died about ten
years ago while I was pregnant. My sister came out
first to take care of him for a little bit
and then came stayed for the funeral. But that's really
when the rift happened, was when I was pregnant, and

(33:14):
all of this anger, I think came out in the
emails that came out. She was very angry that she
was the one who had to take care of my
dad and not me, and in another email that she
had to be the executor of the estate and sort
through things even though I was named the executor. She
was very angry about that that I hadn't stepped up
to do that.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Why do you think that you were not sharing those
responsibilities with her?

Speaker 3 (33:36):
I got pregnant in August. I was in my forties
at the time, so it was a miracle at all
that I got pregnant. I wanted to wait to see
if I passed all the tests and I was actually
going to have a pregnancy and not miscarrie. But I
also my dad and my mother told me, do not

(33:57):
tell your sister because this will destroy her if she
finds out that you got pregnant with your boyfriend, whereas
she's been trying for years. I said, okay, I'll wait.
But my sister found out from my aunt and was
so angry with me that I didn't tell her, and
she's still angry to this day. You could tell from
the email. I was so angry that I didn't share

(34:18):
with her that I was pregnant. She had to find
out for my aunt.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Did you explain why you hadn't told.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Her, I did, I said, Mom and Dad said, don't
tell you anything until I was a little bit further along.
I had wanted to, but I didn't. I'm really sorry.
Knowing now, I would have shared the news with you.
I just was followween instructions. How did she react to
your explanation doesn't matter. You should have known better.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
If your parents hadn't said something, what would you have done.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
I'm a very open person, so I was I would
want So.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
She was right. You didn't know better, but you just
went and based what your parents were saying.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
That's right, they both said, do not tell her.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
But did you say that to her like you're right, Natahalia,
I did know better, and I was going to tell you,
and I shouldn't have listened to them. That was a mistake.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
I didn't say so that she was right. I was,
you know, arguing with my boyfriend at the time. It
was an awful situation I was in. We had agreed
to have a baby and then I got pregnantly. He
was telling me to get an abortion. My father was dying,
was not in a good place at my job at
the time. It was not at the top of my

(35:31):
mind thinking about other people and when I should be
informing them of my pregnancy.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
I'm just thinking about the whole dynamic that was established
very young with the two of you that you didn't
know about. So one of the things that makes this hard,
I think, especially for you, is that you didn't ask
her to protect you. You didn't ask her to do
any of this, and she feels like, well, I did

(35:56):
the right thing. I was the noble person here right,
and when it came to the pregnancy. I think that
this dynamic continue, this pattern of we're adults now and
I've always protected you from mom and dad, and yet
in this situation you chose them over me. You didn't

(36:19):
choose me. And I think that even in your letter
when you had that back and forth about the Christmas present,
that she was upset that you hadn't asked about there
had been a bad storm where she was. She wasn't
saying you need to check the weather. I think she
was saying, do you care about me?

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Now?

Speaker 1 (36:40):
You're not expected to check the weather in a location
you're not in. But if you had her in mind
and it was in the news, maybe you would have thought, huh,
I wonder if Natalia's okay. We're just trying to help
you to see that. From her perspective, she feels like
you don't have her in mind very much.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
I think that's it's true, except I also feel like
she's trained me not to care, because when I do
ask how are you doing, She'll say, fine, it's okay.
So why would I keep going back to a well
where it's just dispissal.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Do you follow up with her when she says that
and say, but Natalia, I actually really care about you,
and I really would like to know. And I know
you're my big sister, but we're both big now and
I really am interested in what's going on with you. Yes,
it's on her to open up, but I think you

(37:36):
need to push a little bit more. And I also
think that when she says, you know I said earlier
that she's thinking you should have chosen me, and you
know you did know better. But you listen to mom
and dad and you're like, well, but I was in
a very difficult situation. That's your default response, which is accurate.
It skips over the step of you do say that, well,

(37:57):
but here's the situation I was in. But you can
start by saying, I completely understand how you feel. I
completely get that given your experiences, it must have felt
like such a betrayal that you've been trying so hard
and I actually get pregnant and you find out not
for me. That must have been really hurtful. I am
so sorry that that's how you found out. And then

(38:19):
you can go and say your part, but the part
about your addressing her feelings seeing them as we said,
it doesn't contradict you saying here's my experience, but you
skip over that, yes, she's giving you all the signals.
On the one hand, don't go there. And on the
other hand, she's giving all the signals, so please go there.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah. No, I think both of those reflections are quite accurate.
It's so hard sometimes you get just caught up in
like defense mode, and it's so difficult to, you know,
put a different hat on for the situation with my sister,
because I just I feel like I'm being attacked and
I immediately want to put up my shield and say no.

(38:59):
But maybe I would get a different response from her
if I did just more validate the open and as
you said, guy, not take the first dismissal as okay,
she doesn't want to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
You mentioned that you feel like you have to be
in defense mode, that you're being attacked, and I think
that if you hear it as blame, that's what's going
to happen. I don't think that originally she was blaming you.
I think it evolved into that and now she's clearly
blaming you. But I think part of the reason that

(39:33):
she's so angry is because you keep telling her her
reality isn't real. I was thinking about the fact that
she doesn't feel appreciated for what she did. Again, you
didn't ask her to do it, but she feels like
she did do that for you. She flew out when
you went through a breakup. She took on this parental
role with you. And I was thinking about what you

(39:59):
wrote in your life letter about how she succeeded so
much academically and then she was up for tenure and
she didn't get tenure and she never worked again. And
I think that goes into that place in her of
I'm not appreciated. I did everything right and I didn't
get tenure. I did everything right, and I didn't get

(40:20):
a baby. I did everything right, and my sister doesn't
appreciate me, And so I think at a certain point
she just gave up. You said she lives in seclusion
with her boyfriend and her dog. I do everything right
and no one can see me. So I'm going to
stay away from that pain. I'm going to keep it

(40:40):
to emails, but I'm still trying to be heard because
it's really meaningful to me to be heard. She hasn't
given up on that.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Especially by you at Lease, especially by you.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
It's so interesting because I felt growing up I was
always told you was the prettier one, the smarter one,
the more did one. It's just such a bright career
ahead of her. I still see that. You know, she's
got the boyfriend. I don't have a boyfriend. She's got friends,
so there's there's things she does have in her life,
but she's still like I guess, as you said, Laurie,

(41:15):
I'm just very angry that a lot of things she
didn't receive, and she feels like she didn't get recognized
and the things that she feels like she should have deserved.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
But I really believe that even if she puts up
so many hurdles, deep down she wants that closeness with you.
That's why she keeps writing. That's a lot of engagement
for somebody who doesn't want to have a relationship.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
I'm thinking a little bit about the way that you
move through the world with a more rosy disposition, which
has its strengths, but the other part of it is
that you want to make sure that it doesn't veer
into denial. And I'm thinking about how things ended with
your dad. I felt very close with him, and you

(42:02):
had a sense and your mom even mentioned that he
favored Natalia, and in the end he chose her. He said,
don't tell her, and had devastating consequences because you didn't
get to have the relationship that you wanted to have
with him at the end of his life. That's right,

(42:22):
and I imagine that that pain lives inside you. It's unresolved.
It's this unfinished grief.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
That's quite true. You know. He ended up calling me
on the phone in November after my sister found out
and screaming at me and how could you not tell her?
And I said, but you told me not to tell
her that I was pregnant, and he said, well, you
should have told her anyways, because now look at this
mess that we're in. And he'sas like, don't call me,
I don't want to see you for Thanksgiving. And I

(42:50):
was calling him and trying to get in touch with
him and sending him letters, but he wouldn't talk to me.
My sister kept it from me that he was that sick,
and I only found out when he was already at
the hospital and in a coma. And I feel like
you know with my sisters saying, well, why couldn't you
step up and be the executor? And I was like,
I was in shock. I hadn't talked to my dad
in four months, and our last conversation was him screaming

(43:12):
at me. And now you want me to make decisions
about property and whether or not to take them off
life support. I couldn't believe that that was the last
time I got to see my dad.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
I don't think it was just shock. I think it
was anger.

Speaker 3 (43:28):
Oh, I was so angry at her? How could you
not tell me?

Speaker 1 (43:32):
Well, not just her, I think it was anger at
your dad. He in effect disowned you correct for inadvertently
hurting your sister's feelings.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
By following his advice.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
Yeah, I mean it makes no sense to me.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
You keep trying to make sense of it, but I'm
seeing the pain on your face, and I think you
live in the cognitive more than in the emotional. You're
more head than heart when it comes to pain. That
could be and that has been your coping mechanism that
served you well growing up. But I think now might

(44:11):
be a good time in your life, not just in
terms of your relationship with your sister, but in terms
of your relationship with yourself and even as a parent
with your son, to be able to access more of
your feelings and to use them in an intentional way.

(44:32):
Oh so when I told my sister that I was
arguing with my boyfriend, and that's why I couldn't step up,
I could actually share with her. I was so hurt
by Dad because he disowned me, and I was robbed
of the experience of saying goodbye to him, and he

(44:52):
died angry with me because I followed an instruction he
asked me to follow to protect you. At the time
when this happened many years ago, you were not able
to say to her, I'm devastated by what happened with Dad.
I can't step up right now because I am so
angry that he did this to me. She didn't do

(45:13):
it to you. He did it by choosing her over you. Yeah,
And so there's all this kind of misplaced anger in
the family. People are angry with different people instead of
being angry with the people that maybe they should be
angry with.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
I think your dad was one of the few people,
if not the only, person who did see your sister.
He was around when you were growing up and I
think he did see what she did as the older sister,
the sacrifices she made, and I think that was part
of the closeness that they had. He was much more
clued in to her feelings and her sensibilities than anyone

(45:53):
else in the family, which is why that warning came
out to you. And then when she is and she's
so devastated, he just feel so bad. He just lashes
out in anger without really adjusting for the fact that
that was his advice in the first place. But I
think that's in part why they had that bond, because
he saw and no one else saw.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
So when your dad died, he was watching out for
her heart. And then he's gone, and then the three
of you are left. What happened after your dad died?
In terms of your relationship with your mom, it was
strained for a while.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
We've never been really close to My mother is not
a very emotional person. She's much much more in her
head and she's very analytical. She lives close by, so
I'm able to see her. I talk to her either
through email or texting her on the phone. I would
say every single day, So I guess from that perspective.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
We're close does she have a relationship with your child?

Speaker 3 (46:56):
She is not the doting grandmother. She will sort of
buy him a gift, but she's not one to take
him to the park or offered a babysit. She sees him,
I would say every few months or so.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
Even though she lives close. Correct, what is that like
for you?

Speaker 3 (47:13):
That's a great question. I wish she were different, but
I've just sort of accepted this is the way she is.
She's not going to be that sort of grandmother who
attends the concerts and asks about how he's doing in school.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
At least you know, this is the analytical part that
you inherited from your mom. Okay, My question was not
how do you make sense of it or how do
you live with it? But what does it feel like
to you to know that she's close or you're a
single mom, you have this beautiful child and she's not

(47:48):
involved in his life.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
It's disappointed. I mean, she says she loves her grandson,
but I don't see that in her actions or her
words or her voice. And it hurts. And I guess
I choose not to think about it because it is
so deeply painful, and maybe what I've learned during this
talk with you. All is I do to sort of

(48:11):
dismiss my own painful feelings and don't dwell on them
because it doesn't feel like it serves me, just makes
me feel worse.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
And this is what drives Natalia crazy.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
I think you're right, Laurie, because there's so many layers here.
When you see your mum operating as a grandmother and
she's not warm and she's not close and she's functional,
it brings up Yep, that's what it was like growing
up with her as a mother. So it's not just
that you're not reflecting on your experience as a mom

(48:44):
to see how your mother's relationship with your son is like,
but you're not even taking it to the next layer,
which is and let me reflect on my experience was
like because the same disappointment I have for my son
I probably experienced or didn't because I was distracting myself
from it and not dealing with it. And again that's
the same tendency of I'm going to just put that

(49:06):
aside and just not think about it because that's easier, right.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
Well, I'm trying to be a different parent myself. I
purposely play with him, talk to him, communicate with him,
validate his feelings, which surprises my mother. She's like, why
are you taking him to all these places and doing
all these things? And because that's what I think being
a good mom is about. Is Bilina you know that connection?

Speaker 2 (49:34):
You say that to her, Yeah, does she see the
uptext to know?

Speaker 3 (49:38):
I don't think so. I don't think she goes that deep.
She's super smart intellectually, but just doesn't go into the
feelings about people.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
But again, this is sort of a cognitive explanation, because
that's what a good mom does. I'll bet that when
you're taking your son to all these different things and
you're connecting with him and you're listening to him and
validating him, that feels healing to you. It does, and
it's enjoyable. You enjoy your role as his mother, but

(50:07):
it also heals something because you're able to give something
that you didn't get very true. And I wonder if
you spend any time in those feelings of I'm grieving
but I'm healing and when you're at the park with
him or you're taking him to wherever you take him

(50:27):
that is enjoyable for him. Do you ever sit there
and just think what am I feeling right now? And
maybe you want to spend a little more time there
in the moment with him and get in touch with
your feelings.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
That's a great suggestion.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
So I'm curious how this works with your mom and Natalia.
They email, but they don't talk.

Speaker 3 (50:54):
Sometimes they talk on the phone. They have to arrange
phone conversations. Natalia also lashed out at my mother in
a similar way over small things. She got upset. My
mother said she would call her one morning and because
something else came up, and my sister got very upset
with her and angry, and you don't care about me.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
But that's the theme. That's Natalia's theme. She does not
feel that anyone ever cared about her except her boyfriend
seems to oh.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
Her dad was not only yes.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
And even when she was grieving the loss of the
one person who was there, she felt the burden of
and I have to handle everything again, just like my parents,
who were not in charge when I was growing up.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
I think that's true.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Does your mother acknowledge what the atmosphere was really like
in your house growing up?

Speaker 3 (51:46):
I don't think so. As she says, you know, was
it really that bad? We did our best.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
She does to you what you do to Natalia. And
also your mother, as you said, was scared to you.
That was the first word that you said when we
asked at the beginning of the session, tell us about
your mom, you said we were scared of her. So
she doesn't acknowledge any of that, and she says we
did our best the way you say to Natalia, Mom

(52:14):
and dad did their best. And it lands on you
differently than it lands on Natalia. You have your own
coping mechanisms that both served you and prevented you from
truly feeling, which you'll probably want to work on a
little bit more. And for Natalia, she dealt with it
in overachieving and taking care of everybody else but not

(52:38):
really having her own needs recognized.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
She's very upset about that chance.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
And I might suggest Elise that maybe you do too,
but you don't let yourself go there, because there have
been times in our conversation today when your emotions are
all over your face and there you know you're smiling
now through that, Yeah, yeah, partly in recognition, but partly
because that's what you do. You smile when things get hard.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
Yeah, it's just painful to think about and I don't
like spending a lot of time in pain, but.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Maybe getting more in touch with your feelings will help
you not be in such pain.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
I pulled out some pictures from my photo album of
my sister. Can I show you? Yeah, happy kids, Easter
egg hunting, all bit older in the beach.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
What made you pull those photos out?

Speaker 3 (53:38):
Because I wanted to show you like we were happy kids.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
At least you're doing with us what you do with Natalia.
We don't doubt that you experienced happiness in your childhood,
but we also see that you were able to compartmentalize.
And you're defending. You're saying, here's exhibit A. Let me
show you the pictures, Judge, here we are we were happy,
you see, Look look at us smiling in these pictures.
That's what you do to Natalia. Yes, you were smiling

(54:04):
in those pictures. And yes, all the other things we
talked about in this session were also true. Both and
and that is where we want to get you to
to the both at all.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
So at least we have some advice for you. We
would like you to write an email to your sister.
Would like you to say some version of you've been
thinking about her a lot, and you've been doing a
lot of reflecting, and you've come to realize more about

(54:42):
how much of a sacrifice she made when you were
growing up, how much she was looking out for you,
and how much her protection and sacrifice allowed you to
have a much better experience childhood then she did. Not
that it was great, but it was a better experience,

(55:04):
And you're seeing that that cost her, and it's something
you hadn't seen before and hadn't fully appreciated before, but
you're seeing it now. And you can also say, and
I'm just now getting in touch with my own feelings,
and it's been hard for me, and so I definitely

(55:25):
know that I didn't do a great job of being
there for yours, but I think I can do that
better now. For example, I really should have listened to
my instincts when I got pregnant, because you were the
first person I should have called. Because I know what
you went through in trying to get pregnant, you should

(55:45):
have heard it from me. I'm so sorry I didn't
tell you first. And you're right, I wasn't there for
you when Dad died, and I know how close and
special your relationship was, so I can only imagine how
big a loss that was for.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
You and how much support you needed at that time.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
And I realized in general that I had a big
sister who was looking out for me when I was
growing up. You didn't have that. You were all alone
in a difficult situation. And I really hope that maybe
you can give me another chance today to really listen

(56:28):
and to be there for you in ways that I
haven't been able to be before. You don't have to
justify or explain anything.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
No pictures, got it, Laurie.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
And what you're asking her for is he would love
to be able to have better conversations going forward. I
really want to hear more about how you feel and
what your experiences are even today. Okay, she might respond
with another tirade of anger, like now you're writing this
all these years where she just kind of vomits out

(57:06):
all the complaints. If she does that, your response to that,
because I think she's testing. If she does that, she'll
be testing you to see really you're listening, or you're
going to start explaining again and telling me that no,
I'm telling you I was miserable and you're like, no,
but our childhood was good for me, Like that's the fear.
So if she comes back with this full tireage, you

(57:27):
have to just do another round of it. I understand
that this is what this was like for you, and
I can get how angry you are and how much
you felt disappointed and let down by me over the years.
I get why you're.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
So angry, and I'm really glad you're telling me this
because now I'm able to hear it and understand it differently.
So don't worry about her tone, don't worry about the
kind of language she uses. At a certain point, you will,
But right now, if she feels understood and heard, you
are going to say thank you, thank you, thank you,

(58:04):
thank you for telling me this.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
If she doesn't respond at all, then we think, like
once a week for a while, you should just text
her and say I was thinking about you and I
just wanted to check in and see how you were.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
And I would add to those texts just a line
of I'm doing so much thinking about our childhood.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
So she understands that things shifted, because she has to
understand why it's worth a while to try it again
because things shifted.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
So validating her show that I'm listening to her don't
talk about me, well, you talk about.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
You in the sense of I've been doing a lot
of reflecting. I see that I wasn't really open to
hearing your pain because I have trouble with my own
pain and that would be a great way to express
it to her. Our mom was not very good at
expressing emotions. She was very analytical, and I've adopted that

(58:58):
way of being, and I realize that I have not
been able to acknowledge your pain or mind, even if
they might be different. Okay, okay, And this leads me
to part two of the advice. There are three parts.
Part two is we didn't ask you about this in
this session, but you did say in your letter that

(59:20):
she calls you a bully, and we are just guessing
that maybe what she means by that is that you
both have the experience of the other person as shutting
you down. She expus all this venom at you, and
you feel like she's a bully, and she feels like
you're trying to ram your version of childhood down her

(59:43):
throat so aggressively that she experiences you as a bully.
There is an aggressiveness to forcing someone to think the
way that you think and deny their reality, and I
think you do that as much for yourself as you
do for Natalia. You are trying so hard to convince
both of you that it was okay, because that's been

(01:00:05):
your coping mechanism that has in some ways worked your
advantage and in some ways not so. The ways that
it has not has been you haven't really made room
not only for Natalia's feelings, but for your feelings. So
when Natalia shares her pain with you, we'd like you
to look for an aspect of your own pain in
what she's saying. Yours might look different, but we've learned

(01:00:29):
in this conversation that you do have some pain. That
it's very hard for you to sit in your pain
because it feels so uncomfortable, because that was how feelings
were dealt with in your family. But we'd like you
to get some practice with sitting with your feelings a
little bit acknowledging that they're there and not using that

(01:00:49):
intellectual part of yourself to talk yourself out of those feelings,
and partly as a parent, yourself so that you model
something different or your child until you can get in
touch with your own feelings. Okay, Yes, and so as
part of that, this is leading into task number three.

(01:01:10):
We feel like you really haven't dealt with your feelings
around your father. That he was this person that you
could go to emotionally in the family, and yet he
also favored your sister, and he also had a drinking problem,
and he abandoned you when you, inadvertently and on his advice,
ended up hurting your sister, and you didn't get any

(01:01:34):
kind of goodbye with him, any kind of repair with him.
So we'd like you to write a letter to your
father and really go into the feelings part where you
expressed to him what you weren't able to express to
him before he died. I loved you so much. Those

(01:01:55):
times when we would talk about things when I was
being bullied at school, when the girls were unkind to me,
when you were there for me meant the world to me.
I couldn't do that with Mom. I was scared of Mom,
and you were my sanctuary. And these are the feelings
as you're crying right now that we're talking about Dad.

(01:02:19):
I loved you so much. You were so there for
me when I was all alone. You have no idea
what that meant to me. And then at the end,
becoming a mom was so important to me, and instead
of being able to celebrate that with me, you disowned me.
You didn't tell me how sick you were. I didn't

(01:02:39):
get to have any kind of repair with you. I
never got to tell you this. We never got to
talk about how much you meant to me and also
how much you hurt me. And so I want to
tell you this now, dad, Okay, And I think that
that will be a starting point for you to really
get in touch with some of the feelings you had

(01:03:01):
around the patterns in your family, the relationships in your family,
and how they affect not just you and your sister today,
but how they affect you and your own relationships today
with your son, with a partner that it sounds like
you hope to meet one day, and with yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Okay, one last thing we said, we would like you
with your sister to have several rounds the letter. Maybe
there's a phone call or more emails of really just
absorbing and containing. If she's angry, if she's hurtful, that
doesn't mean you do that forever. You do get to

(01:03:45):
set limits at some point, and you do get to
say to her, I'm actually trying to make things better
between us. I'd love for you to participate in that.
See if you can kind of quote unquote break her
so that she really gets it and trusts because it's
a trust thing. And if she can, that's wonderful. If
you can't, at some point, you don't have to keep
showing up for the beating. So keep in mind that

(01:04:08):
there is at some point if you're not seeing any movement,
you get to say, you know what, I've really been
trying here. But if you're just going to keep being hurtful,
it doesn't encourage me to keep trying. And I would
like to tell me how I hurt you without attacking me.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
Yeah, okay, Oh we'll try that. Thank you. Thank you
both really appreciate it. I really appreciate your time and
all your advice and helping me to see things from
her perspective. I don't think I would have been able
to without hearing and talking with the both of you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
And we're also helping you to see things from your
perspective that you've been pushing down for many decades.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
Yes, very true.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
We'll be thinking about you. We really hope it goes well.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
I so appreciate you it's really wonderful to speak with
both of you. I appreciate your time very much. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
I think this session was a good illustration of how
sometimes somebody comes in and they want help with their issue,
but we spend a lot of time helping them to
see somebody else's perspective. And partly here it wasn't so
that we could focus so much on her sister, but
it was to help a Lease get in touch with

(01:05:31):
the emotional side of her own experience of childhood and
for a Lease to really understand that she doesn't fully
know the version of her own story of childhood yet
she's just at the very beginning of reflecting on that
and understanding herself.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Well, yeah, absolutely right, especially when somebody comes in and says,
there's somebody very important in my life who just sees
everything so radically different than I do, and we fight
about it all the time. And when you hear that,
and you hear that they don't have insight into the
other person's perspective, then it's actually really important to help

(01:06:10):
them see the other person's perspective, because that's almost like
opening a door that other things can happen, you can
go through. But unless you can get that door open.
There's no repair that can be done.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
Yeah. And also I think it really highlighted for a
lease getting some kind of understanding of the pain that
happened at the end with her father understanding. It actually
does feel bad when my mom can't have a relationship
with my son, because it reminds me of what I
felt like as the daughter of this particular mom, and

(01:06:46):
in being able to find the common ground with her sister. Yes,
there were different points of pain, but we also lived
in the same house and reacted in some way to
the difficulties that were going on, and at least we
can agree on that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
I'm really curious to see how this goes for her
this week. Both I'm curious to see how Natalia will respond,
and I'm especially curious if she does respond, how Alice
will manage that response, and whether she can really stay
with her feelings because they are difficult and she's not
used to it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
I thought it was really telling when at the end
of the session she brought those photos up for us
to see, to say, look at our happy childhood, look
at our great relationship. I felt in that moment what
Natalia must feel when she's trying to say, let's look
at the both and let's look at this other part
of the experience too, But no, no, no, here are

(01:07:39):
the pictures. So I'm really curious to see what happens
this week.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
You listening to deotherapists. We'll be back after a short break.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
So, Guy, we heard from Elise, and I'm curious to
see how things went with the assignments we gave her.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Dear Laurie and Guy, thank you again for taking the
time to listen to my story and offer me some
advice and a bit of homework to try and help me.
Your first assignment was to write an email to my
sister and validate her experience and feelings. I did my
best to come across as truly hurtfelt warm, conciliatory, and
inviting future conversations with her. I've not heard back from

(01:08:32):
her since I sent that email a few days ago.
I do intend to follow up with weekly, friendly short
check ins, as you both suggested, in case there continues
to be no response for her. Your second task was
to look more deeply into my own feelings and work
on my ability to express them better. I realized from
our talk that I do tend to focus on the
good and dismiss the bad in my life. I've done

(01:08:54):
my best to quickly get rid of bad feelings like
anger or sadness. After we chatted, I reflected and realized
that I had talked about how great a sister she
was and how little we fought. Well. I remember now
some of the negative things between us, like how we
were washing dishes one night, argued and she threw a
pot of water all over me. I remember a huge

(01:09:16):
fight we had when I was in second grade and
I ended up in the emergency room with fourteen stitches
on my arm and a few in my face, And
when she was angry with me, she'd locked me in
the garage. Later on, when I was struggling and fighting
with my axe and being a single mom, she told
me I was probably not capable of being a good
mother and that I should put my baby up for adoption.

(01:09:36):
So you both seemed quite perceptive to this aspect of
my personality. That I tend to bury my pain in
bad memories. I need to work on that. Your third
and last assignment was the most painful, which was to
write a letter to my dad expressing both my love
for him, yet also how much she let me down
and abandoned me, how he chose my sister over me,
and how he refused to reach out to comfort me

(01:09:58):
knowing how much pain I was in. This was the
most painful part of your homework, and to be honest,
I don't feel much better after writing it. It's been
over ten years since he died, and I'm so grieving
and upset thinking about how is death unfolded. I do
want to thank you both again for all your help
and insights into my story. We both helped me reframe things,

(01:10:20):
and though I can't repair what happened with my dad,
maybe there is some hope with my sister. I do
miss her very much and it would be great if
we could be real sisters and involved in each other's
lives again. Bye for now.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
The first thing that struck me about Elisa's response is
I remember her showing us those pictures of her and
her sister and saying, look, we had such a happy childhood.
Look we were so close, we had such a great
relationship as sisters. And then to hear these stories that
were not just painful, but they were extreme, locking her away,

(01:11:03):
throwing a pot of water on her telling her that
she should put her child up for adoption. This is
a very different version of events. So I'm glad that A.
Lisa is starting to see that there's another side to
this relationship because her mom had this sort of always
be happy attitude, that she has adopted this well and

(01:11:27):
needs to be able to see the reality of the
relationship as opposed to just the sunny version.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Yes, I was equally surprised because we were talking about
this for quite a while. She had a lot of
opportunity to have her memory jogged and to say, oh,
you know what, I'm actually remembering one of the not
great moments. But you're right, these are quite extreme landing
in the hospital with fourteen stitches to the arm to
the face, and had we heard this information, it might

(01:11:55):
have shifted our perspective, both of the sister and certainly
of the relationship ends certainly of the extent to which
Elise is good at ignoring the bad and focusing on
the good, and our advice might have been different had
we known that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
I think we were wanting at least to explore how
much flexibility Natalia had when she felt validated and heard.
But now we're getting a different version of Natalia. And
I'm not sure how much capacity Natalia has for this

(01:12:33):
kind of reciprocal conversation, given how extreme her behavior has
been even as a child. So I think we might
have given a different assignment in terms of what to
do going forward with Natalia.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
And I think it also explains a little bit the
dad's actions, because if Natalia from the beginning had really
big feelings about things and Alisa didn't seem to have
as big because she was so good at the denial,
then the dad might have been in the mode of
having to soothe the child that's more emotionally volatile. And
then right at the end of his life, when he
was so angry with Elise for actually just following the

(01:13:12):
advice he gave her, don't tell your sister you're pregnant,
maybe that was out of concern for the sister because
she's more fragile, and he was used to just protecting
the older sister because she was more overt in her
feelings than Elisa, was much harder to see when Elise
was hurting, and he might have just replicated that same
dynamic of let's tend to look squeaky your wheel.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
He might have truly been frightened given Natalia's behavior, of
what she might do right if she felt so much
pain around her not being able to get pregnant, and
then her sister is and Natalia seems like she can
be extremely reactive in unpredictable ways, and he might have

(01:13:59):
been concerned about would she harm herself, what would she
do to others? So going to that last assignment where
Alice was saying writing the letter was really hard for
her and it didn't give her much relief, I think
this is the first step, is that you need to
be able to get those feelings out, as painful as
they are, and get clear about This is what I

(01:14:23):
wish my dad had known. This is what I wish
that I could have told him, and maybe understanding a
little bit more about why he did what he did,
not to excuse what he did or not to take
away the pain of what he did, but to understand
a little bit more about the pickle that he was
in and the pickle that we were all in in
the family.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
And I think it's very possible that because she wrote
this letter and she's thinking about these things, that much
like happened with Natalia. More memories of her relationship with
her father might start to come back to her. That
makes the relationship with her dad much more mixed and
ambivalent than she had presented to us based on the

(01:15:06):
memory she had. So it's possible that that's one of
the reasons she didn't feel relief, because it's a much
more complicated relationship with her dad than she had described
as No, everything was great with us, just this thing
happened out to the blue.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
I think because he was the more available parent that
she idealized her relationship with her father, because we do
that as children. When there's somebody that at least gives
you something, then we idealize that parent as the good parent,
the parent who saw me. And in some ways I'm
sure he did, but there were probably many ways that

(01:15:41):
he didn't, especially because he was drinking. So I think
being able to acknowledge, as you said, the complexity of
the relationship might be really helpful for her instead of
the idealized relationship that seems to have crashed all of
a sudden at the end of his life. Maybe that
complexity was there the whole time, and now she's just

(01:16:02):
finally seeing it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
And so maybe this is an opportunity for her to
re examine all the relationships she has in her life
and really try and look at all of them more accurately.
I would strongly suggest she do that with help of
a therapist.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
Where this might lead for her is to a process
of grieving in a way that will help her to
move forward instead of staying stuck in these ideas about
her childhood that she's been holding on to. Maybe she
won't have the kind of relationship with her sister that
she wants. Her sister just might not be capable of that,

(01:16:39):
and there's some grieving there. Her mother she's seen as
a grandmother, she's just not capable of it. And the father,
we saw what he was capable of or not capable
of at the end of his life. So I think
there's a lot of grieving to be done so that
she can move forward and find more satisfying relationships now

(01:16:59):
in her present life, whether that's a romantic relationship, platonic relationships,
having the kind of relationship with her son that she
wants to have. I think that that is the path
forward for her finding the kinds of relationships that she
didn't have. But she's going to need to really do
some grieving in order to move forward and make space

(01:17:21):
for those new relationships that are healthier and more satisfying.

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
I really hope she does this work. She's I think,
capable of having a much more satisfying and emotionally connected
life than she's had.

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
So fuck absolutely. Next week, a woman who feels rejected
by her husband wonders if there's any hope for their marriage.

Speaker 4 (01:17:43):
I'd given them an ultimatum where I said, let's focus
on our relationship intensively. If things don't go in the
right direction, we're going to have to figure out the
next step. He told me that I was threatening to force,
and then he said, I'm done.

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
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people to find the show.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at laurandguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive
producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher.
Additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our
intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our

(01:18:31):
podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see
you at our next session. The Therapist is a production
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