March 19, 2024 • 60 mins
This week, we’re in session with Andrew, who met his current partner because they shared the same ex, and worries that his new relationship is therefore built on a shaky foundation. We help him remove the ghost of the ex and trust the important lessons he learned from that relationship in this new one.
If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at LoriAndGuy@iHeartMedia.com.
Subscribe for free to Dear Therapists to stay up to date on all the latest episodes.
Follow us both online:
LoriGottlieb.com and on Twitter @LoriGottlieb1 and Instagram @lorigottlieb_author
GuyWinch.com and on Twitter @GuyWinch and Instagram @Guy Winch
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Deer Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront the problems in their lives and
then give them actionable advice and have them report back
to let us know what happened when they did what
we suggested.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week, a man who met his current partner because
they shared the same ex wonders if they're past will
doom The relationship.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Seems almost too good to be true, Like am I
missing a key thing? Or is there something wrong with
me and something wrong with my current partner that attracted
us both to the X? Or is there something that
he saw in both of us that's gonna like drop
at some point.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
First a quick note, Therapists is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional health care. Advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia
use it in part or in full, and we may
edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear,
all names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So what are we going to
be talking about today?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Today? We have a letter from a man who is
in a new relationship which is a little bit in
the shadow of an old relationship, and it goes like this, deotherapists.
For the past six months, I have been dating a
man who is a good listener, kind and caring. However,
we have a shared history with an ex partner, with
that relationship for both of us being traumatic in different ways,
(01:51):
though more so for me than him. Both of us
have no contact with this ex partner or interest in
having that. I feel supported in the relationship, but find
it difficult to set boundaries when it comes to us
both talking about this X. While I think the shared
history initially allowed us to connect in a deeper way,
I have a persistent worry that it's causing me to
(02:12):
overlook things about potential pitfalls in this relationship. How do
I move forward and stop my negative feelings from the
previous relationship from costing a shadow over my current one.
Thanks for your help, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Well, this is a really interesting situation because often xes
do interfere with a current relationship, but in this case,
it's the same X, and they both had a difficult
relationship with that X, though one person had a more
difficult relationship with that X, and I can see how
that could be really bonding in the beginning when they
first met. But then the question is how much of
(02:48):
that is still living inside of their relationship so that
they can have a fresh new relationship without the shadow
of this.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
X, right, that is the question. I'm very curious about
how they talk about this. Is it something that each
of them brings up that one of them tends to
bring up more. Is it actually present in their relationship
in the day to day in some way, or is
it just something they feel compelled to talk about because
that's how their relationship began. So I think we have
a lot of questions. Let's go talk to Andrew.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Hi Andrew, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Hi, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Of course you're very welcome. We read your letter. We
would like to start actually with the previous relationship, just
for context, So with the ex if you could tell
us a little bit about how you met that person,
what relationship was like, what the issues were that came up.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So we met during peak COVID. It was about a
two year relationship and we just met on a dating app.
It was quite supercharged. We went for lots of walks
initially because we were trying to socially distance and it
was very positive early, lots of kind words, lots of
(04:22):
fun activities, lots of sort of things that made me
feel great. But quite early into the relationship, I would
say about two months, trust issues started to develop. So
it deteriorated from a perspective of I felt very much
like I was the one to blame for a lot
of things. I felt like I wasn't meeting his standards
(04:44):
and sort of tried to make up for that.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
When you said trust issues started to develop, what exactly
happened there?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, so he accused me of withholding information and didn't
trust friends I would go out with, and wasn't sort
of of trusting that those relationships weren't of a sexual
and or sort of romantic nature. So he would start
to sort of question me. At one time, he even
(05:13):
did go through my messages often would feel like I
wasn't being truly forthcoming and would sort of test me
to see if things were what I said they were
and fair enough. One time he did sort of catch
me out when I was withholding information because the way
the dynamic worked is it would escalate and he would
sort of probe me for things, and I sort of
(05:35):
just started giving like the easier answer because I was
busy or I didn't want to have that chat.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Right then, can you tell us what happened that one
time when you were withholding information from him?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, So one time we were at sort of a
study session and I'd come over to help him study,
and we had planned to do it for the whole day,
but it wasn't going particularly well, and I was sort
of messages from our friend and so instead of saying, oh,
I've been messaging this person for a little while, I'm
(06:07):
going to go catch up with them. I said, Oh, hey,
this person just messaged me. I'm going to just go
see them and leave this study session now. And so
I think I misrepresented how spontaneous it was versus having
planned to go meet up with that person directly after.
So instead of being honest about that, I sort of
came up with a simple excuse that wasn't exactly true
(06:31):
because I represented it as a spontaneous thing rather than
a completely planned thing.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Might not be honest about that, I.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Think because at the time I was trying to placate
the situation, I felt there was a lot of friction,
and so I didn't want to rock the boat necessarily
and be honest, which was you're being quite aggressive in
this study session and you're kind of telling me that
I'm not doing the right things to help you, and
we're also not studying effectively. I think we would probably
(07:01):
study more effectively alone. So instead of saying all that,
I just was like, Oh, my friend just messaged me.
I'm going to go yeah, yeah, okay. So that was
sort of the initial in the relationship. The trust did
break down a little bit, but we repaired it.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Can I ask how did you repair it?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
So Initially he sort of said that I had communication issues.
So I went to see a therapist myself and I
did some courses on communication, and then we went and
saw a couple's counselor together, and because it was COVID,
we were getting on quite well. So then sort of
six months into the relationship, we moved in and that
actually went okay because we became supports for each other.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
At the time that you moved in, had the trust
issues been resolved as far as you could tell.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
No, I kind of just overlooked them. I sort of
had always been a little bit on the back foot.
I've been doing things to try and prove myself to
this person, often through things that he either requested or acts.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Token acts like what kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
So I'd drop work and go help with one of
his clients, for instance, if they needed things, or I
would buy him a gift, or I'd have a romantic gesture.
I've always been afraid of heights, but he's always liked it.
So I organized to go skydiving because I was like, oh,
you don't trust me, so he is a show of that.
(08:28):
I'm willing to try anything with you.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
What made you feel like you had so much to
prove to this person. Is that something that felt familiar
to you in other relationships as well?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I think going into the relationship, I did lack self confidence,
and I think I always saw him as this sort
of idyllic person. So I was trying to really prove
myself internally, and so I think that didn't help coming
into it. But also because he had sort of called
me a liar and said I was a bat communicator
(09:00):
and said I wasn't bringing the right things to the table,
part of me wanted to sort of prove him wrong
and also be that person for him. I loved him.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
How does going skydiving when you're afraid of heights prove
to him that you're a trustworthy person.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I think for me it was sort of the idea
that part of my communication issues were connected to my
anxiety and were connected to the things that I was
holding back out of fear of conflict. And so I
think part of me choosing to do something like that was, oh, look,
I can overcome my fears. I can be connected to you.
(09:38):
I can do this with you. I can watch you
fall out of a plane and follow you down kind
of thing that was the romantic gesture to it, but
it was a bit extreme and silly.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Well, No, there were grand gestures, and it wasn't just
jumping out of an aeroplane to be with someone. It
was he says, you have communication issues, you actually take
communication courses, you go to therapy. That's a big respect.
So it's a big gesture for someone. Was he making
big gestures as well?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Initially I would say yes, But I think a lot
of the things that I thought were romantic gestures were
probably just things he wanted to do anyway. For instance,
like sometimes I'd come home and all the candles would
be lit and we wouldn't sort of watch anything, and
dinner would be cooked and we'd just relax and like,
to me, that was really romantic. But as the relationship built,
(10:28):
I realized those were things that he liked to do
and he enjoyed sharing those with me. But I don't
think they necessarily were for me.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
So there want incidences of him going out of his
way to make a gesture to you, like guy dibeing,
taking courses, going to therapy.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
And specifically gestures around why he had so many questions
around trust.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, I think he came into the relationship being pretty
open about previous access and about trust issues that he had,
and so when he sort of found that first incidents
of me sort of not being completely fully open, he
saw that as me not respecting his boundaries and stepping
over that core wearing that he had, or that's how
(11:10):
sort of he described it. So I think he was
pretty honest that I need full trust and I need
complete transparency in this relationship and saw that I wasn't
bringing that to the table, and so felt he was
holding me to account to that, but didn't feel like
he needed to change necessarily.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Did he understand the impact of how much he needed
to question you was having on you that it felt
intrusive to you.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I think he did, But he felt that he had
to hold firm to his value system to respect who
he was.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
He was quite good at articulating his needs to you,
and it sounds like you weren't quite great at articulating
yours to him.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Correct there was definitely a power dynamic to the relationship
where I had to learn to articulate my needs, and
then when I did articulate those needs, I think because
I felt like the inferior one in the relationship, I
often would back down or just put them to the
side in fear of a potential conflict.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
What made you feel like the inferior one in the relationship.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I have sort of longstanding things that lead to that.
I'm a middle child, and I'm a little bit different
to the rest of my family, and he sort of
was stereotypically beautiful, and he was sort of wrapped up
in a social setting that I was very much separate to.
So I think a lot of those things sort of
(12:41):
made me feel like I didn't bring as much to
the table. But I was also busy at the time.
I was wrapped up in work and felt like I
was constantly being run off my feet, and so I
didn't feel like I could bring as much in terms
of time commitment, and I think that also led to
that feeling too.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So tell us how things are build were the X.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So it ended up going far too quickly. We lived
together for six to seven months, and I wouldn't say
they were harmonious, but I think because I sort of
suppressed a lot of things that I was having issues
with and he was clear with what he had issues with.
I was getting more and more tired and so wanted
(13:23):
to change things, and as a lot of people did
during COVID, decided, oh yeah, let's move into state. I'll
go regionally, and we talked about our long standing goals,
and at about a year and a half we decided
to buy a house together, which was a big and
pretty ridiculous step. And so when we moved up to
start to live in the house together, that's when things
(13:46):
really broke down in what way, we had a really
big fight. We were traveling up in a caravan to
our new property in separate cars, and my ex sort
of found an animal that was injured and so asked
me to loop back and grab some supplies for it.
But then after that episode, he was acting sort of
(14:07):
more erratic and was sort of not allowing me to
support him at all. Really, he sort of disconnected from
me and didn't want to chat and didn't want to
talk and just wanted to look after this animal. And
so it led to a fight just as we were
moving up to this property and we had sort of
chickens in one car and we had all of my
things in another car, and so he was struggling to
(14:31):
sort of drive with one of the car is attached
to the caravan. With all the things, so I said
we'd swap, but my car had had all my things
that I needed in it, and so what ended up
happening was he ended up driving off and leaving me,
but because all my things were in the other car,
I ended up running out of charge and not having
a phone or a computer or anything. So it ended
up being quite significant. And then when I sort of
(14:54):
tried to highlight that as an issue to him, it
ended up culminating in us breaking up. As we were
about to start our new lives, we broke up, which
wasn't anticipated or expected.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
How did it go from you talking about this disagreement
that you had to breaking up? How does it escalate
like that?
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, it escalated quite quickly, I think from his perspective
at the time, his words were, I don't want to
baby you. And so I think potentially the dynamic in
the relationship had set up so that because I was
just meeting his needs a lot, he felt like he
was the sort of more parental figure and I was
sort of the most submissive one where I would sort
(15:36):
of go along with what he wanted.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
But Andrew, usually the parent is the one that meets
the needs of the child, not vice versa. That sets
you up to be the parent, not him.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Again, it's tricky because I am speaking for him.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
But why then, why Andrew? When we ask you what happened,
you always start well, I don't want to speak for him,
but he's his perspective before you get to yours. How
come you start with him before you get to you?
You've done that several times. Do you notice that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I do. I am putting myself second. I guess that's true.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
So tell us about you. How does it go from
we had a disagreement about the caravan to we're breaking up?
What was happening for you?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
For me, it all came to a head because I
felt very much alone. I anticipated with the move that
it would be something we would do together, But even
in the lead up to the move, I was selling
things sort of online to try and make space to
move things in this caravan, and I was doing a
lot of things, and I felt in that moment that
(16:39):
it wasn't a team effort, and it wasn't necessarily us
moving up to our house. It was me facilitating us
moving up to his house, is how I felt it was.
And so I think being on a rural property by
myself without service, having only just gotten there because I
(17:00):
almost ran out of petrol because I couldn't pay for
it with chickens and having to unload all of my
worldly possessions by myself. It kind of hit me that, like, ah,
I think I am pretty alone and that was what
for me triggered a lot of the breakup feelings.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
But instead of talking to him about how alone and
abandoned you felt, you told him you wanted to break up.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Oh no, he broke up with me. I told him
those things, and then that led to the breakup.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So when you told him how you felt and what
you needed, he broke up with you?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And that was how long ago?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
A year in three quarters ago? Yep?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And then when did you meet your current boyfriend?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
So I met him seven months ago?
Speaker 1 (17:45):
How long ago did he date? The mutual acts?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
So that's interesting because he started dating my ex two
months after I had broken up with him, so pretty quick,
and I was sort of surprised to buy that initially
when we started talking.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
And how long were they together?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
They were together for a month and a couple weeks.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Okay, so much more casual relationship.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Correct, But similarly, it went quite rapidly. They became exclusive
quite quickly, and then he actually ended up living my
old property for a while.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
The trust issues that your ex had with you, did
your ex also have with the person who became your
current boyfriend?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yes, similar trust issues followed a very similar script.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
And in that relationship, who broke up with whom?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Again? My ex boyfriend broke up with my current one.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Andrew. When you left that relationship with your ex, did
you have takeaways? Did you have lessons learned that you
told yourself, like, Okay, here are some things I might
not want to do again, or some things I might
need to do differently. Were you doing some thinking about
the relationship and what you can learn from it?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
One hundred percent? And I moved away, and I found
a new job, and I had some therapy, and I
sort of said I wasn't going to get into a
relationship for a long time because I was really still
in love with my ex. I think for probably six months.
The wounds took about six months to heal properly.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
What then were the takeaways? Tell us what those lessons were?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I think to sort of stick up for myself and
be more firm in what I needed in a relationship
and what I was looking for, but also to put
myself first. I think you can't show up for another
person unless you are looking after your sort of core needs.
And I think that concept of getting run down in
(19:44):
a relationship is really something that I'm not looking to
do again. I saw that in trying to meet all
the things on someone's list, that I was sort of
devaluing the things that I am as a person. I
wasn't who I really needed to be. And so I
think understanding that I do sort of lie more on
(20:05):
the anxious spectrum, and that I do need to work
harder and making sure that I'm looked after, but also
just that I need to be a bit more picky.
I kind of at that time ended up cutting out
a couple of people because I felt that they weren't
people who actually listened to me and actually heard me
(20:27):
and actually respected or valued my time. And so that
breakup wasn't just a breakup with my ex. It was
also a little bit of a breakup with a couple
of people in my life.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
So how long after your current boyfriend broke up with
your ex boyfriend did the two of you start dating.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
The way it initially happened actually was because it was
quite tumultuous for my current boyfriend. He'd heard a lot
of things about me from my ex and so reached
out to clarify some of those things. And it wasn't romantic,
cleanclinder or he was just reaching out because he said, Hey,
I heard some things about you and I've had a
similar experience. Do you want to meet up for coffee
(21:09):
and chat about it. I just didn't respond and was
very guarded, and I think that's when he initially messaged,
which was too soon after we'd broken up. It was
maybe six months after, and so I said no and
waited a couple of months. And then I remember thinking
if I was sort of going through that for a
six months period and had someone who could share how
(21:34):
they were feeling and share in that pain almost and
highlight that it's not that crazy feeling. I felt that
it's all my fault, and to be able to say, oh,
oh hey, this is a pattern and it's not your
fault and you can move on. Why wouldn't I do
that for someone? So I did catch up for coffee
and we shared our stories about this person, and they
(21:55):
ended up being relatively similar, even though his was a
lot shorter than mine, So that was sort of the
context for us meeting.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
How did it evolve from that to getting interested in
one another.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I think it evolved quite quickly, which wasn't something I planned.
And I think there was a lot of immediate trust,
purely because we'd been open very quickly about things that
were really painful for both of us. And I come
from a position of a bit further down the track,
so i'd been broken up for longer. I had sort
(22:29):
of less emotion to it, but I'd been in a
longer relationship, and so I have more things to share.
And I guess partially a lot of my worry was
I'd set up clear boundaries that I wasn't going to
be in a relationship and I wasn't going to have
a messy relationship again, so I was a bit cautious.
But we chatted for hours and then met up shortly
(22:51):
thereafter and chatted for hours again, and then talking about
our X turned into talking about each other in each
other's lives, and we ended up going on hikes together,
which we both really enjoyed. And I think the similarities
that potentially my AX chose us for were also things
that made us very compatible together as dating options. And
(23:14):
so I think that trust that we had sharing and
being vulnerable with each other out of the gate, and
then that leading on to things that we shared about
each other that were vulnerable in other spheres, led to
a pretty open communication upfront, which I think is rare.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So in terms of the lessons learned, what is different
in this current relationship that you're bringing into it and
that you're finding that's much more satisfying to you.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
The generosity and spirit of my current boyfriend, I'm willing
to admit when he's wrong. He has a lot more flexibility,
can also overcome adversity, but has at the same time
a level of stability in his life and things that
he doesn't want to change.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Andreliare talking about him again, we're asking about you.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I think for me, I needed someone who is stable
and who could support me. I've been moving around a
relative amount, and so initially my boundary was I don't
want it to go too fast. I needed something that
was consistent and stable, but also something that went at
a gradual pace and wasn't necessarily that supercharged all or
(24:22):
nothing experience that I had in the previous relationship. I
also needed to feel like I was being listened to
and needed to feel like my partner fed back when
they weren't happy with things in a way that was respectful.
Those were my main things that I really had strong
boundaries around.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Would you articulated to the current boyfriend and expressed clearly.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, actually we're doing a long distance at the moment,
But I set up front, I don't want to be
moving in anytime soon. I don't really want to have
shared resources at any point in the near future. And
those the things that he provides that I needed to
feel more secure in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Let me ask you spent hours talking about the X.
There's absolutely something about being vulnerable with people that brings
people closer. I'm curious about how soon after that the
ex was seeded into the background in this relationship, or
how present they were or are still in the conversation
(25:26):
between the two of you.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Not super present in the day to day conversation. Annoyingly,
there's practicalities. We did buy a house together, and so
that's still undergoing mediation, and so every now and then
that pops up. But there are tiny little things, for instance,
when we go to the shops and we're going to
buy things, and you'll be like, oh, do you like
these grapes? And I'll be like, I don't really eat
those anymore because they were my ex's favorite. And then
(25:50):
we'll talk about it briefly and then it'll be gone.
But that still does occasionally pop up. I would say,
maybe like once every two weeks or so, there'll be
something that maybe one of us is triggered by, or
one of us picks up that is an annoyance because
it's related to that shared AX.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
It comes up for both of you. He also mentions
the X.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
It comes up more for me, I would say, than him.
I am sort of more the one to say, oh,
that's something he would have liked. And I don't know
if that's because I spent longer with the AX, or
whether it's because I've got more of a hang up
about it. Maybe both.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
You said in your letter that you have trouble setting
boundaries with your current boyfriend because of the X. We
haven't quite heard that. Tell us where that's operating, and
give us an example of that difficulty.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
For me, my boundaries around the speed of which things
are moving about prioritizing my career, about prioritizing my friendships.
That mean a lot to me. Means that sometimes he's
asking for things and I'm saying no. My worry around
that is if I'm the one saying no for a
really long time, that resem when we'll build up. And
(27:01):
at the moment he's been very frank that that's not
the case. But every now and then at flare is
that like, I'm not meeting this person's needs or expectations,
and I'm not being the best partner I could be
to this man. The way in which we met, I
just was the messier one insofar as I had more
of these attachments to this person that neither of us
(27:24):
wanted to be attached to. And so I think feeling
as the messier one and then having the more firm
boundaries because of that, I feel like I'm the bad cop.
More often do you.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Talk about that in the relationship? Do you ask him
how he feels about the fact that you're more boundaried
in taking it slower than maybe he wants.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yes, I often say like, oh, I'm sorry, I know, Oh.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
See, but that's you apologizing. What I'm asking is, do
you say to him, I'm feeling worried about the fact
that I'm setting these boundaries and that it might affect
our relationship, as opposed to apologizing preemptively. Do you ever
say this is just how I'm feeling and how are
you feeling about it?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I have verbalized sort of saying I think he sort
of has been pretty clear that one day he wants
to move to the same spot and live together, and
I've very clearly stated that's not going to be a while,
just based on my work, And so I worry that
I'm holding you back.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I think that you're not really stating you're worry It
sounds like you're worry is I'm worried that you will
want to leave me? Yeah, yeah, there's a smile. I'm
worried that you will want to leave me if I
don't move at a certain pace. I'm worried that you
will want to leave me if I continue to say
(28:45):
no to these things at this time. It's interesting because
you're fine saying, hey, I don't want to eat these
grapes because they remind me of the ex, but you're
not so fine saying I'm really worried that you're going
to leave me that you're not going to want to
be with me.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, lost aversion is something that I've been afraid of
in all my relationships. I probably stuck around too long
and a lot of them just for fear of losing someone.
So I think the longer into this relationship it goes,
the more I do want to do things to bring
us closer, but also the more afraid I am that
(29:21):
potentially I could lose someone I'm starting to care deeply
about because I can't meet that need.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
In your letter, you say that you're worried that the
connection that you initially had around the X and coming
together to have those conversations is maybe too much a
part of the relationship, and I would say that that
doesn't seem like the real issue in terms of how
the EX is too much a part of the relationship.
(29:49):
I think the EX is too much a part of
the relationship because you're bringing those abandonment fears from that
old relationship into this relationship. So I don't think the
X is so much the issue. I think the feelings
that you had around the X of being abandoned you're
projecting onto your current partner, and I think you're with
(30:12):
a very different kind of partner. By your description, sounds
like a very different kind of relationship. And you're still
holding back because you have those feelings that you had
in the old relationship, even though they're not so relevant
to this new relationship.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
That's true. Anytime I bring anything like this up, my
partner's pretty quick to support and sort of reassure and
tell me all the things that hass and me, and
it is a different kind of feeling. I do think
that I'm bringing those worries and concerns from the previous
relationships into this one. And I guess that's why I
(30:54):
didn't want to get into a relationship, because I felt
like I wasn't ready. I think that I probably am
bringing the old ones into this one, but I don't
want to necessarily throw this one away because I'm not ready.
How do I grow in it?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
You know? I think you are, though, because you're saying
that you're actually implementing a lot of the lessons learned
from the X in the current relationship. You're actually holding
onto your boundaries really really well. From what I hear.
The feelings, though, are still there. And here's why. When
you adopt a new behavior, there was a reason you
(31:33):
weren't setting a lot of boundaries in the previous relationship,
and it wasn't just about your ex It was about
a fear you were probably bringing into that relationship of
if I express my needs too much, they will run,
so let me not do that. And here, despite that fear,
you're holding onto the timeline that you thought was best
for this relationship. There's this transitionary period when we adopt
(31:56):
new behaviors and overcome the old fears, where the old
fears really manifest and it's like, oh, you're doing something dangerous.
You're doing something risky, but you know in your head
you're doing something right. Psychologically, when we adopt a new behavior,
it takes our feelings a while to catch up and
feel comfortable about doing that new behavior. We kind of
(32:18):
have to see that the sky doesn't fall for a
while before we can start to feel a little bit
calmer about it.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Does that make sense, Yeah, it does. You guys are
like hitting on me feeling this torn feeling that I've
been feeling, and you're articulating it far better than I could.
In my previous relationships. I felt like I couldn't express
myself and had to push it down, and now I'm
on the other end of the spectrum sort of expressing
(32:45):
myself and feeling internal guilt for that.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And I think you feel that guilt because it's so
strongly associated with how you felt in that previous relationship.
But I think that that's something you came into that
relationship with, You've had that for a long time. It's
just this is maybe the first relationship that you've had
where you're not experiencing someone who's invalidating what you need.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah, it is interesting because my current boyfriend is the
one who very clearly says I would feel like that too. Actually,
I did feel like that. He's been very accommodating, which
I think is not something that I was used to previously,
but also feels really foreign and almost unsettling in a
way because a part of me, and I know this
(33:31):
isn't right, but a part of me feels why does
he like me this much?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Well?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Is he willing to stick around with the mess of me?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
In your last relationship? You said that your boyfriend had
trust issues, and I think these are your trust issues.
You're not so much around. Let me check your phone,
you're around. I don't understand why you are staying with
me even though I'm showing you the truth of who
I am. Every time I show you who I am,
(34:00):
you stay with me. What's wrong with you? Or do
you not really see me? And are you really seeing
this thing here? Because I don't know why you're still
staying if you're really seeing me. So these are your
trust issues.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Yeah, And I think I feel a lot harder because
of this life mess that I have with this X,
because I still have those attachments and I didn't get
out sooner and my current boyfriend could see the signs
a lot earlier.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
You know, you've used the word messy numerous times today.
You're the mess. The relationship was a mess. You're messy.
How come this new tidy boyfriend who got out after
a month and a half rather than however many months
in the house has to tolerate your messiness by still
being in mediation. To me, at least, you don't sound
(34:49):
very messy. I'm trying to make the point with you
that you actually are doing the right things. You just
have to manage the emotional discomfort of the novelty of
that for you and the anxiety Itthea has LOWI said
that fear of abandonment that was baked in that if
you actually do express yourself and show who you are,
that somebody will be like, oh no, no, no, that's not
good because that was the experience with the EX is
(35:11):
more than one.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
So tell us the main concern in your letter was
how the X is showing up in this relationship. Tell
us where you think that's happening. Besides oh, the grapes
I don't want to eat because he used to eat them.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I think it's in three different spheres. I think there's
the physical means, so sort of me being financially tied
to it. Still. There's the practical means, where like we
see things and have shared experiences and have shared places
that I kind of don't really want to go because
they remind me of the EX or because that's where
(35:50):
the X lives. And then there's also the emotional stuff,
which is every now and then I sort of get
triggered sort of where I'm like, oh, that reminded me
of that thing that happened and makes me feel really unsettled.
And I think expressing that every sort of now and
then I worry that given our shared history, that that's
(36:14):
going to keep happening.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I think the other worry you expressed was that maybe
because you felt such a strong connection around your shared
experience with the ex, that you start to question your
compatibility with your current partner. Even though everything you've said
today has made it seem like separate from the ex,
the two of you seem very very compatible. So what
(36:39):
do you worry about in terms of your compatibility or
this fear of your not seeing the red flags? As
you said in your letter.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
A part of me is really worried because the trust
being so easy and mutual in the way that we met,
I worry that it seems almost too good to be true,
Like am I missing a key thing? Or is there
something wrong with me and something wrong with my current
(37:06):
partner that attracted us both to the ex? Or is
there something that he saw in both of us that's
gonna like drop at some point that we actually were
overlooking because we've been so wrapped up in this sort
of ease.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
This is exactly what Laurie was saying earlier. It's not
a fear about your ex. It's a fear about I'm
bringing my full self to this relationship. I am not
hiding my needs, my wants my feelings, and it's really
scary that me doing that truly for the first time
will result in I'll get rejected at some point. And
(37:44):
it's exactly what you said. It's like, this feels too
good to be true. What am I missing? And so
far Laurie and I are telling you that you seem
to be really covering all the bases. It seems things
like the communication is where it should be, that your
planning is going at a rate that you felt was
(38:08):
important to be slow enough, which is what it is,
that you have aligned goals for the future, and that
when someone's really listening to you and seeing you and
responding well, it's scary because of a history of that
not being the case. It really does sound like, oh,
(38:30):
this appeels too good to be true, so something must
be wrong that I'm missing. I need outside council to
come and do the vetting because I can't trust that
that feeling of it seems to be going well is
actually accurate. What if it were accurate? What if it
actually is going well?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Do you feel terrified? You look terrified.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
I just think it's like too easy. It seems weird
that something positives come out from something so negative and
that it was just a genuine connection that is really
not expected, and like it just seems like the best
thing that's come out of a really terrible situation. And
a lot of people that I've told have said, oh,
(39:12):
you're not supposed to date your ex's ex.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
What rule book is that written in?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I know you didn't get that one.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I know.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
I think that you soothe your anxiety by having anxiety.
Your anxiety is so familiar to you, it's been with
you for so long that when you don't have anxiety,
you become anxious. If I am anxious, then I can
be hypervigilant and I can make sure that I'm not
(39:41):
going to get hurt. But that hasn't actually worked, And
here you're actually being overly hypervigilant. So it's almost like
you weren't vigilant enough in the other relationships. Ironically, the
ones where you needed to look out for those signs,
you were not paying enough attention to them when they
did happen, and they happened quite frequently. In the last
(40:02):
relationship and the inn this relationship, there are no real
big red flags. Things come up, you guys deal with them.
If I don't have my anxiety, which is my shield,
which protects me, which makes sure that I'm not going
to be devastated and gutted again in the way that
I had been. But the problem is your anxiety is
going to make you not move forward in a healthy relationship.
(40:27):
You will find some reason, and right now that reason
is it's the shadow of the X. And so this
relationship is doomed because it started this way. So no
matter how great it is now, it doesn't really matter
because everyone says you're not supposed to start a relationship
that way. That's very convenient, but it doesn't really reflect
the reality of the relationship you're in.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
One of the issues is that your attribution for why
things are going well is not aimed correctly. You told
us that you were in one relationship after another in
which you want bringing yourself, you want speaking up, you
want expressing your needs sufficiently, and you leave this relationship
and you go to therapy and you work on yourself,
(41:11):
and then you're in a relationship and despite the discomfort,
despite the anxiety of doing it, you are doing all
these very difficult, correct things. And that is why the
relationship is going well, not because your ex costs a
spell on you both in some kind of way.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I'm thinking about your ex and his trust issues, in
the way that he always needed to be reassured that
you were not stepping out on him, And I feel
like you do that to yourself, that you're doing what
your ex did to you, but to yourself. You're always
checking on yourself. Am I looking for everything? Am I
making sure that I'm not missing anything? It sounds exhausting
(41:55):
the way that it was exhausting to be with your
ex when he would always say you see your phone
and what are you doing? And who are you with?
It was really becoming intolerable. And you're not letting yourself
just trust in this relationship. I'm talking about trust yourself,
not your partner. You don't trust yourself enough in this
relationship to say I don't need to look for disaster ahead.
(42:18):
I need to be aware. I can't have my head
in the sand, but I don't need to be wondering
where the next disaster is coming from.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Because I'm doing all the right things. That's why I
don't need to worry.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
We just saw you, Tira, tell us more about that.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
I think it just comes from a place of not
feeling good enough, and I just feel good enough, like
I feel like I am a good communicator, I feel
like I do bring a lot to the table. I
do have a lot of value to add in a relationship.
And you're probably right. The uncomfortable feeling is the pushback
(42:56):
against that. And potentially the reason I bring my ex
into that conversation a lot is because he often said
I wasn't and now I don't need to be that
perfect partner. But I wasn't expecting this from this session.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
And that's what touched you right now. You got in
touch with that feeling you said it. But what touched
you when you tear it up is you got in
touch with the feeling of I think I might be
good enough. I think I am good enough because I've
worked so hard. That's what it's touching you again, because
you're tearing up again. Sorry, No, we don't apologize for
(43:29):
having feelings.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
We call those happy tears. Yes, because you're smiling as
you're tearing up. You've got a big smile on your face.
And even if these were sad tears, there's no need
to apologize for them. And I'll bet that your boyfriend
doesn't expect an apology when you are feeling whatever you're
feeling and sharing that with him.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
No, he doesn't.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, I cry a lot and he's there.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Yeah, Yeah, it's good. I don't know getting older. I've
just started crying watching like sad movies. But it's good.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
It's not getting older. It's all the work you've done
to get in touch with how you feel and what
you want and give that room and space that opens
you up, so you're open. When you watch a sad movie.
You can cry because that's what sad movies are supposed
to make you do. You couldn't cry before because you
were too defended, because you're being attacked all the time.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
It's also just nice having someone who doesn't have any expectations,
Like the expectation is I am me, and he likes that.
Whereas I think the thing that I tapped into is
potentially I've put the most expectations on myself, and yes,
(44:44):
other people put those on me, but I take them
on and hold them, and so I think some of
the tears were also just a bit of like the
person who has the least expectations in my life at
the moment, or my partner and that's pretty special.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I want to maybe reframe that for you. I think
your partner has very high expectations and that's why he
picked you. You make it sound like he had no expectations,
so whatever, he'll settle for me kind of thing. He
has very high expectations. He wants someone who is present
and open and loving and warm and compassionate and knows
(45:21):
how to set boundaries and knows how to check in
with him and that's why he's with you because he
has really high expectations. So it's not just, oh, he
doesn't have any expectations, so that's why he's staying with me.
He's staying with me because he has high expectations and
I am good enough. That's a very different way of
(45:42):
looking at it. I think you both have very high
expectations and you've chosen people who meet those expectations, and
neither of you had that before.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
So, Andrew, we have some advice you, And here's part one.
We want you and your boyfriend, each of you to
separately make a list, and the list is why things
are going well, Why we can trust in our feeling
that this is indeed going well. What are the things
(46:20):
we're doing and then we would like you, when you're together,
to read each other your lists and discuss because we
think it's really important that you each understand that things
are going well because of the openness, the communication, and
the work you're each putting into it.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
The idea behind this just to keep in mind as
you're doing it, is you seem to not really trust
that it could be going this well, that there must
be something wrong, there must be something that you're not seeing,
there's some red flag that you're missing. It's all going
to blow up, and so we want you to see
that there are reasons why this is going well and
that both of you are contributing to that in a
(47:00):
way that hasn't happened in your other relationships. The next
thing we'd like you to do is to make another list,
and this has to do with your question about whether
you're good enough, and we'd like you to write down
all of the things that make you an appealing partner,
all of the reasons that someone would be thrilled to
beat with you. Why is your boyfriend with you because
(47:21):
he has really high standards and this is what you bring.
And every time you start to doubt and say, am
I good enough? Am I too messy? All of those
questions that you have. We want you to take out
that list and look at it again.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
Okay, I can do that. I am preemptively embarrassed, but
I will do that.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Good.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Good, Yes, we can see because you went silent. And
that's why we think you need to have it on
paper where you can look at it, not just in
your head. But we need you to write it down
and have it maybe posted above your desk and on
the bathroom mirror. Is something that you need to look
at frequently. Related to that, because this is really about
your anxiety, we'd like you to do a little reading.
(48:05):
And the book that we want to suggest is called
The Anxiety Toolkit by Alice Boyce Boyes because the book
is just extremely practical.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Here's the next thing. Laurie and I both feel that
the reason you wrote to us was because you wanted
us to vet the fact that this seems to be
going well. But I'm obviously missing something and I can't
find it. Please help me find it so I know
what's wrong. And we think that you do that with
(48:36):
your friends as well. When your friends say to you
it's not wise perhaps to be in a relationship with
somebody who dated your ex. It's probably because you're setting
them up to say that by your presentation of like,
this probably crazy, but we met, we have the same
ex and that couldn't go well, right, And your friends
are like, he wants to hear right, and you say yes, yes,
(48:57):
you should be careful. So we'd like you to go
to each friend who validated incorrectly that this was problematic
and actually say to them, hey, I know I came
to you to validate my fears and my anxieties and
to think about the catastrophe that's looming so I can
see it coming because I don't see it coming yet.
(49:20):
But actually things are going quite well, and I wanted
to tell you about that and tell you a little
bit about why I think they're going well. So you
correct the impression so that your friends around you are
not sitting there waiting to cherry pick anything bad that happens.
Go to your friends to tell them it's working and
here's why. And do that with each of the ones
(49:42):
that you went to to get the validation for the
doom and gloom that isn't here.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
To my friend's credit, they I think are just being
protective after what I went through previously, but I can
definitely do that. I think they'd be open to hearing
that feedback because I think everyone's been very protective and
it would be nice to have some positives.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
If you do anything with them like you did with us,
you're inviting the negativity and you're not saying enough about
what is going really well and what makes you really happy.
And we had to really really pull that out of you.
So they're not working with the full picture here. They
don't know how well it's going. They don't know how
(50:23):
happy you are. You could say, I'm really terrified because
it is going so well, but I'm being boundaried. I'm
taking it slowly, I am protecting myself, and I feel
really good with the foundation that we're setting here. So
we need your friends to have a much fuller picture
so that when they do give you feedback, it's based
on how the relationship is actually going and not the
(50:45):
anxiety and the catastrophizing and the inviting disaster. The last
thing we would like you to start reclaiming the grapes,
And what I mean by that is there are these
places and spaces and food that you associate with your
ex and it still makes the X loom so large
(51:06):
in your life, but you're moving on to a different chapter.
And so if there are things that you truly enjoy,
maybe it's grapes, maybe it's a restaur hut, and it
doesn't have the shadow of the X looming over it.
The only way that the X really has an effect
on your life right now is the gift that your
ex gave both of you, which is that it taught
(51:28):
you both what you want and need in the next
relationship and how to do the work and how to
be different. That's the legacy of your EX. We don't
want it to be and we can't coach to this
restaurant and we can't eat these foods. Your X gave
you something so valuable and now you're reaping the benefits.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
And when you do go to these places and have
those grapes, intentionally create new associations around them that have
nothing to do with your X. Don't just go to
the restaurant for the sake of doing it, but go
for a happy occasion where celebrating something that's meaningful and
really intentionally create new associations to kind of eradicate the
(52:07):
old ones.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
So how does all this advice.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Sound that sounds really good. Thank you excellent.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Well, we really look forward to hearing how this goes
for you this week.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
Thank you guys so much for your help and your
patients helping me pull it out of me. I apologize
for potentially having circular thoughts.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
One more apology and you're going to get another task
and to eradicate apologies.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
We're going to give you a non apology homework. If
you apologize again.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
You do not need to apologize.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
And just to say, your podcast did really help me
when I was going through a really tough time. I
think I did an eighteen and a half hour driver
a couple of days and listen to all of them.
So thanks for your help.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
You know, Laurie, I remember in season one we had
a letter that the subtext of the letter was am
I a scumba? And hear the subtext of the session
not the letter, was am I happy? And I think
our answer was, yeah, we think you're kind of happy,
albeit worried about it. And it was interesting to see
(53:15):
that time and again Andrew came back to, oh, but
this might be a problem, but that might be a problem,
and then hearing about the relationship it was all so
solid that it was just very nice to be able
to say, no, this is truly going quite well.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
And I think he puts up these walls because he's
so wary that there's some red flag out there that
he's missing. It's important for him to be aware of
what's going on in the relationship, but if he's always
looking for a potential problem, he's never going to be
able to be really present. And as we said, enjoy
(53:53):
the happiness that he's actually experiencing. You're listening to, dear therapists.
We'll be back after a short break. Well, guy, we
(54:19):
heard back from Andrew, and let's hear how his week went.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
Dear Laurie and Guy, your revice actually came at a
really good time. My partner recently visited and we went
on a prolonged two and a half day hike, which
was perfect time to sort of talk about everything that
we feel and we had a lot of time to
sort of connect. It was quite enlightening because I created
(54:44):
a list of all the things that I thought made
me an appealing partner and also what was working well
on the relationship. And it turns out after talking about
that with my partner, he'd made a list quite early
on in the relationship of all the things that he
liked in me, all the things that he thought were
green flags, and he decided to share that with me.
(55:05):
And it was nice to sort of validate some of
the things that I felt about myself, but also see
myself through someone else's eyes in terms of linking how
I was feeling and all the doubts that I had
to my anxiety and stemming that all back to potential
(55:26):
self hatred and self doubt that had crept in and
maybe flared after a break up with my AX, which
I think potentially my partner was also feeling at the
time and also shares that feeling. It is nice to
know that by talking these things through together and dispelling
our anxieties through love and validation, it's been kind of
(55:51):
special to do that with my partner. Unfortunately I haven't
gotten around to reading the Anxiety Toolkit, but it is
top of my list. I did talk to my friends
and talked through how potentially the way that I was
discussing the relationship was filled with self doubt, and they
reiterated that notion, but also said that they'll continue to
(56:15):
look out for me and that was affirming as well.
I think I'm really lucky and have good friends who
do care, and it's nice to share this part of
my relationship and my life with them. In terms of
the reclaiming the Greats, we have actually started on that
one too, almost inspired by the food trope, I have
been cooking more and I've been deciding to make some
(56:37):
meals that I used to make in the previous relationship,
but with ingredient twists to cater to my current partner,
and it's a good way to show that I care
and for us to connect. So thank you for all
your help and advice. It's actually I think brought me
closer together with my partner, and I hope to carry
it forward in the future and work on that. Anxiety
(57:00):
selped out a little bit so that I stopped second
guessing things that might just be healthy and good.
Speaker 1 (57:10):
We don't really have much to say because he did
everything so beautifully. I love that his partner already had
that list, that he had made one himself, and it
was at the ready.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
I know that really happens. That really happens, that we
give over work and the partner's like none it already anticipated.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
Exactly exactly, but it shows two that he was thinking
through things, that the partner's very thoughtful, sounds like they're
a very good match, and that they're self reflective. They're
both going into this after having dated this person that
affected them in different ways. They're being very aware of
the kind of relationship that they want. So I think
the partner made that list thinking I'm going to be
(57:51):
very aware going into this new relationship, and we know
that Andrew wants to be very aware going into this
new relationship too.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
I agree. And what occurred to me was that they
met through this ex that each of them had dated,
and they thought that was a problem for the relationship.
But what it did is it forced them both to
be very attentive to the relationship, mindful of how they're feeling,
mindful of how things are developing. It might have turned
out to be a gift in that way because it
(58:20):
really put them on such a positive communicative note and
thinking note from day one, which I think is really
serving them now too.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Yeah, and even though this was a very specific situation,
not a lot of people start dating because they dated
the same person. I think this applies to everybody in
terms of how do I deal with the ghosts of
my past as I go into a new relationship. Like
when he's reclaiming the grapes, he's doing something that gives
him pleasure and he's not associating it now with the ex,
but he's saying, and I've kind of tweaked the recipe,
(58:49):
so it applies to this new relationship and all of
the second guessing that people do after they've been hurt
in a former relationship. He's really learning how to manage that.
Look at what is actually happening now versus what am
I spinning in my mind? That is not something that's
a red flag. This wasn't a one time exercise. This
was a way of being in the relationship as they
(59:12):
go forward and move past whatever history they had with
the ex and see who they are to each other.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
I think the moral of the story in this relationship
is true for all relationships, and that is pay a
lot of attention at the beginning, be excited, go with
the flow, but be mindful and be thoughtful from day one.
Next week, a woman whose family disowned her after she
refused to loan her father a huge amount of money.
(59:41):
One does how to grieve the loss and how to
trust again. That evening when I call me, I thought
he wanted to apologize, but then it was all about
I'm not your dad anymore, You're not my daughter anymore.
We're just strangers now.
Speaker 1 (59:54):
You mean nothing to me. If you're enjoying our podcast,
don't forget to subscribe for free so you don't miss
any episodes, and please help support to your therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at Lauriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive
producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,
additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our
intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our
(01:00:30):
podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see
you at our next session. The Therapist is a production
of iHeartRadio, Fish Food
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Deer Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront the problems in their lives and
then give them actionable advice and have them report back
to let us know what happened when they did what
we suggested.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week, a man who met his current partner because
they shared the same ex wonders if they're past will
doom The relationship.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Seems almost too good to be true, Like am I
missing a key thing? Or is there something wrong with
me and something wrong with my current partner that attracted
us both to the X? Or is there something that
he saw in both of us that's gonna like drop
at some point.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
First a quick note, Therapists is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional health care. Advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia
use it in part or in full, and we may
edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear,
all names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So what are we going to
be talking about today?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Today? We have a letter from a man who is
in a new relationship which is a little bit in
the shadow of an old relationship, and it goes like this, deotherapists.
For the past six months, I have been dating a
man who is a good listener, kind and caring. However,
we have a shared history with an ex partner, with
that relationship for both of us being traumatic in different ways,
(01:51):
though more so for me than him. Both of us
have no contact with this ex partner or interest in
having that. I feel supported in the relationship, but find
it difficult to set boundaries when it comes to us
both talking about this X. While I think the shared
history initially allowed us to connect in a deeper way,
I have a persistent worry that it's causing me to
(02:12):
overlook things about potential pitfalls in this relationship. How do
I move forward and stop my negative feelings from the
previous relationship from costing a shadow over my current one.
Thanks for your help, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Well, this is a really interesting situation because often xes
do interfere with a current relationship, but in this case,
it's the same X, and they both had a difficult
relationship with that X, though one person had a more
difficult relationship with that X, and I can see how
that could be really bonding in the beginning when they
first met. But then the question is how much of
(02:48):
that is still living inside of their relationship so that
they can have a fresh new relationship without the shadow
of this.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
X, right, that is the question. I'm very curious about
how they talk about this. Is it something that each
of them brings up that one of them tends to
bring up more. Is it actually present in their relationship
in the day to day in some way, or is
it just something they feel compelled to talk about because
that's how their relationship began. So I think we have
a lot of questions. Let's go talk to Andrew.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Hi Andrew, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Hi, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Of course you're very welcome. We read your letter. We
would like to start actually with the previous relationship, just
for context, So with the ex if you could tell
us a little bit about how you met that person,
what relationship was like, what the issues were that came up.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So we met during peak COVID. It was about a
two year relationship and we just met on a dating app.
It was quite supercharged. We went for lots of walks
initially because we were trying to socially distance and it
was very positive early, lots of kind words, lots of
(04:22):
fun activities, lots of sort of things that made me
feel great. But quite early into the relationship, I would
say about two months, trust issues started to develop. So
it deteriorated from a perspective of I felt very much
like I was the one to blame for a lot
of things. I felt like I wasn't meeting his standards
(04:44):
and sort of tried to make up for that.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
When you said trust issues started to develop, what exactly
happened there?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, so he accused me of withholding information and didn't
trust friends I would go out with, and wasn't sort
of of trusting that those relationships weren't of a sexual
and or sort of romantic nature. So he would start
to sort of question me. At one time, he even
(05:13):
did go through my messages often would feel like I
wasn't being truly forthcoming and would sort of test me
to see if things were what I said they were
and fair enough. One time he did sort of catch
me out when I was withholding information because the way
the dynamic worked is it would escalate and he would
sort of probe me for things, and I sort of
(05:35):
just started giving like the easier answer because I was
busy or I didn't want to have that chat.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Right then, can you tell us what happened that one
time when you were withholding information from him?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, So one time we were at sort of a
study session and I'd come over to help him study,
and we had planned to do it for the whole day,
but it wasn't going particularly well, and I was sort
of messages from our friend and so instead of saying, oh,
I've been messaging this person for a little while, I'm
(06:07):
going to go catch up with them. I said, Oh, hey,
this person just messaged me. I'm going to just go
see them and leave this study session now. And so
I think I misrepresented how spontaneous it was versus having
planned to go meet up with that person directly after.
So instead of being honest about that, I sort of
came up with a simple excuse that wasn't exactly true
(06:31):
because I represented it as a spontaneous thing rather than
a completely planned thing.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Might not be honest about that, I.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Think because at the time I was trying to placate
the situation, I felt there was a lot of friction,
and so I didn't want to rock the boat necessarily
and be honest, which was you're being quite aggressive in
this study session and you're kind of telling me that
I'm not doing the right things to help you, and
we're also not studying effectively. I think we would probably
(07:01):
study more effectively alone. So instead of saying all that,
I just was like, Oh, my friend just messaged me.
I'm going to go yeah, yeah, okay. So that was
sort of the initial in the relationship. The trust did
break down a little bit, but we repaired it.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Can I ask how did you repair it?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
So Initially he sort of said that I had communication issues.
So I went to see a therapist myself and I
did some courses on communication, and then we went and
saw a couple's counselor together, and because it was COVID,
we were getting on quite well. So then sort of
six months into the relationship, we moved in and that
actually went okay because we became supports for each other.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
At the time that you moved in, had the trust
issues been resolved as far as you could tell.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
No, I kind of just overlooked them. I sort of
had always been a little bit on the back foot.
I've been doing things to try and prove myself to
this person, often through things that he either requested or acts.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Token acts like what kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
So I'd drop work and go help with one of
his clients, for instance, if they needed things, or I
would buy him a gift, or I'd have a romantic gesture.
I've always been afraid of heights, but he's always liked it.
So I organized to go skydiving because I was like, oh,
you don't trust me, so he is a show of that.
(08:28):
I'm willing to try anything with you.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
What made you feel like you had so much to
prove to this person. Is that something that felt familiar
to you in other relationships as well?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I think going into the relationship, I did lack self confidence,
and I think I always saw him as this sort
of idyllic person. So I was trying to really prove
myself internally, and so I think that didn't help coming
into it. But also because he had sort of called
me a liar and said I was a bat communicator
(09:00):
and said I wasn't bringing the right things to the table,
part of me wanted to sort of prove him wrong
and also be that person for him. I loved him.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
How does going skydiving when you're afraid of heights prove
to him that you're a trustworthy person.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I think for me it was sort of the idea
that part of my communication issues were connected to my
anxiety and were connected to the things that I was
holding back out of fear of conflict. And so I
think part of me choosing to do something like that was, oh, look,
I can overcome my fears. I can be connected to you.
(09:38):
I can do this with you. I can watch you
fall out of a plane and follow you down kind
of thing that was the romantic gesture to it, but
it was a bit extreme and silly.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Well, No, there were grand gestures, and it wasn't just
jumping out of an aeroplane to be with someone. It
was he says, you have communication issues, you actually take
communication courses, you go to therapy. That's a big respect.
So it's a big gesture for someone. Was he making
big gestures as well?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Initially I would say yes, But I think a lot
of the things that I thought were romantic gestures were
probably just things he wanted to do anyway. For instance,
like sometimes I'd come home and all the candles would
be lit and we wouldn't sort of watch anything, and
dinner would be cooked and we'd just relax and like,
to me, that was really romantic. But as the relationship built,
(10:28):
I realized those were things that he liked to do
and he enjoyed sharing those with me. But I don't
think they necessarily were for me.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
So there want incidences of him going out of his
way to make a gesture to you, like guy dibeing,
taking courses, going to therapy.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
And specifically gestures around why he had so many questions
around trust.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, I think he came into the relationship being pretty
open about previous access and about trust issues that he had,
and so when he sort of found that first incidents
of me sort of not being completely fully open, he
saw that as me not respecting his boundaries and stepping
over that core wearing that he had, or that's how
(11:10):
sort of he described it. So I think he was
pretty honest that I need full trust and I need
complete transparency in this relationship and saw that I wasn't
bringing that to the table, and so felt he was
holding me to account to that, but didn't feel like
he needed to change necessarily.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Did he understand the impact of how much he needed
to question you was having on you that it felt
intrusive to you.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I think he did, But he felt that he had
to hold firm to his value system to respect who
he was.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
He was quite good at articulating his needs to you,
and it sounds like you weren't quite great at articulating
yours to him.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Correct there was definitely a power dynamic to the relationship
where I had to learn to articulate my needs, and
then when I did articulate those needs, I think because
I felt like the inferior one in the relationship, I
often would back down or just put them to the
side in fear of a potential conflict.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
What made you feel like the inferior one in the relationship.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I have sort of longstanding things that lead to that.
I'm a middle child, and I'm a little bit different
to the rest of my family, and he sort of
was stereotypically beautiful, and he was sort of wrapped up
in a social setting that I was very much separate to.
So I think a lot of those things sort of
(12:41):
made me feel like I didn't bring as much to
the table. But I was also busy at the time.
I was wrapped up in work and felt like I
was constantly being run off my feet, and so I
didn't feel like I could bring as much in terms
of time commitment, and I think that also led to
that feeling too.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So tell us how things are build were the X.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So it ended up going far too quickly. We lived
together for six to seven months, and I wouldn't say
they were harmonious, but I think because I sort of
suppressed a lot of things that I was having issues
with and he was clear with what he had issues with.
I was getting more and more tired and so wanted
(13:23):
to change things, and as a lot of people did
during COVID, decided, oh yeah, let's move into state. I'll
go regionally, and we talked about our long standing goals,
and at about a year and a half we decided
to buy a house together, which was a big and
pretty ridiculous step. And so when we moved up to
start to live in the house together, that's when things
(13:46):
really broke down in what way, we had a really
big fight. We were traveling up in a caravan to
our new property in separate cars, and my ex sort
of found an animal that was injured and so asked
me to loop back and grab some supplies for it.
But then after that episode, he was acting sort of
(14:07):
more erratic and was sort of not allowing me to
support him at all. Really, he sort of disconnected from
me and didn't want to chat and didn't want to
talk and just wanted to look after this animal. And
so it led to a fight just as we were
moving up to this property and we had sort of
chickens in one car and we had all of my
things in another car, and so he was struggling to
(14:31):
sort of drive with one of the car is attached
to the caravan. With all the things, so I said
we'd swap, but my car had had all my things
that I needed in it, and so what ended up
happening was he ended up driving off and leaving me,
but because all my things were in the other car,
I ended up running out of charge and not having
a phone or a computer or anything. So it ended
up being quite significant. And then when I sort of
(14:54):
tried to highlight that as an issue to him, it
ended up culminating in us breaking up. As we were
about to start our new lives, we broke up, which
wasn't anticipated or expected.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
How did it go from you talking about this disagreement
that you had to breaking up? How does it escalate
like that?
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, it escalated quite quickly, I think from his perspective
at the time, his words were, I don't want to
baby you. And so I think potentially the dynamic in
the relationship had set up so that because I was
just meeting his needs a lot, he felt like he
was the sort of more parental figure and I was
sort of the most submissive one where I would sort
(15:36):
of go along with what he wanted.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
But Andrew, usually the parent is the one that meets
the needs of the child, not vice versa. That sets
you up to be the parent, not him.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Again, it's tricky because I am speaking for him.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
But why then, why Andrew? When we ask you what happened,
you always start well, I don't want to speak for him,
but he's his perspective before you get to yours. How
come you start with him before you get to you?
You've done that several times. Do you notice that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I do. I am putting myself second. I guess that's true.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
So tell us about you. How does it go from
we had a disagreement about the caravan to we're breaking up?
What was happening for you?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
For me, it all came to a head because I
felt very much alone. I anticipated with the move that
it would be something we would do together, But even
in the lead up to the move, I was selling
things sort of online to try and make space to
move things in this caravan, and I was doing a
lot of things, and I felt in that moment that
(16:39):
it wasn't a team effort, and it wasn't necessarily us
moving up to our house. It was me facilitating us
moving up to his house, is how I felt it was.
And so I think being on a rural property by
myself without service, having only just gotten there because I
(17:00):
almost ran out of petrol because I couldn't pay for
it with chickens and having to unload all of my
worldly possessions by myself. It kind of hit me that, like, ah,
I think I am pretty alone and that was what
for me triggered a lot of the breakup feelings.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
But instead of talking to him about how alone and
abandoned you felt, you told him you wanted to break up.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Oh no, he broke up with me. I told him
those things, and then that led to the breakup.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So when you told him how you felt and what
you needed, he broke up with you?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And that was how long ago?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
A year in three quarters ago? Yep?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And then when did you meet your current boyfriend?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
So I met him seven months ago?
Speaker 1 (17:45):
How long ago did he date? The mutual acts?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
So that's interesting because he started dating my ex two
months after I had broken up with him, so pretty quick,
and I was sort of surprised to buy that initially
when we started talking.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
And how long were they together?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
They were together for a month and a couple weeks.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Okay, so much more casual relationship.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Correct, But similarly, it went quite rapidly. They became exclusive
quite quickly, and then he actually ended up living my
old property for a while.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
The trust issues that your ex had with you, did
your ex also have with the person who became your
current boyfriend?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yes, similar trust issues followed a very similar script.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
And in that relationship, who broke up with whom?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Again? My ex boyfriend broke up with my current one.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Andrew. When you left that relationship with your ex, did
you have takeaways? Did you have lessons learned that you
told yourself, like, Okay, here are some things I might
not want to do again, or some things I might
need to do differently. Were you doing some thinking about
the relationship and what you can learn from it?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
One hundred percent? And I moved away, and I found
a new job, and I had some therapy, and I
sort of said I wasn't going to get into a
relationship for a long time because I was really still
in love with my ex. I think for probably six months.
The wounds took about six months to heal properly.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
What then were the takeaways? Tell us what those lessons were?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I think to sort of stick up for myself and
be more firm in what I needed in a relationship
and what I was looking for, but also to put
myself first. I think you can't show up for another
person unless you are looking after your sort of core needs.
And I think that concept of getting run down in
(19:44):
a relationship is really something that I'm not looking to
do again. I saw that in trying to meet all
the things on someone's list, that I was sort of
devaluing the things that I am as a person. I
wasn't who I really needed to be. And so I
think understanding that I do sort of lie more on
(20:05):
the anxious spectrum, and that I do need to work
harder and making sure that I'm looked after, but also
just that I need to be a bit more picky.
I kind of at that time ended up cutting out
a couple of people because I felt that they weren't
people who actually listened to me and actually heard me
(20:27):
and actually respected or valued my time. And so that
breakup wasn't just a breakup with my ex. It was
also a little bit of a breakup with a couple
of people in my life.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
So how long after your current boyfriend broke up with
your ex boyfriend did the two of you start dating.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
The way it initially happened actually was because it was
quite tumultuous for my current boyfriend. He'd heard a lot
of things about me from my ex and so reached
out to clarify some of those things. And it wasn't romantic,
cleanclinder or he was just reaching out because he said, Hey,
I heard some things about you and I've had a
similar experience. Do you want to meet up for coffee
(21:09):
and chat about it. I just didn't respond and was
very guarded, and I think that's when he initially messaged,
which was too soon after we'd broken up. It was
maybe six months after, and so I said no and
waited a couple of months. And then I remember thinking
if I was sort of going through that for a
six months period and had someone who could share how
(21:34):
they were feeling and share in that pain almost and
highlight that it's not that crazy feeling. I felt that
it's all my fault, and to be able to say, oh,
oh hey, this is a pattern and it's not your
fault and you can move on. Why wouldn't I do
that for someone? So I did catch up for coffee
and we shared our stories about this person, and they
(21:55):
ended up being relatively similar, even though his was a
lot shorter than mine, So that was sort of the
context for us meeting.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
How did it evolve from that to getting interested in
one another.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I think it evolved quite quickly, which wasn't something I planned.
And I think there was a lot of immediate trust,
purely because we'd been open very quickly about things that
were really painful for both of us. And I come
from a position of a bit further down the track,
so i'd been broken up for longer. I had sort
(22:29):
of less emotion to it, but I'd been in a
longer relationship, and so I have more things to share.
And I guess partially a lot of my worry was
I'd set up clear boundaries that I wasn't going to
be in a relationship and I wasn't going to have
a messy relationship again, so I was a bit cautious.
But we chatted for hours and then met up shortly
(22:51):
thereafter and chatted for hours again, and then talking about
our X turned into talking about each other in each
other's lives, and we ended up going on hikes together,
which we both really enjoyed. And I think the similarities
that potentially my AX chose us for were also things
that made us very compatible together as dating options. And
(23:14):
so I think that trust that we had sharing and
being vulnerable with each other out of the gate, and
then that leading on to things that we shared about
each other that were vulnerable in other spheres, led to
a pretty open communication upfront, which I think is rare.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So in terms of the lessons learned, what is different
in this current relationship that you're bringing into it and
that you're finding that's much more satisfying to you.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
The generosity and spirit of my current boyfriend, I'm willing
to admit when he's wrong. He has a lot more flexibility,
can also overcome adversity, but has at the same time
a level of stability in his life and things that
he doesn't want to change.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Andreliare talking about him again, we're asking about you.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I think for me, I needed someone who is stable
and who could support me. I've been moving around a
relative amount, and so initially my boundary was I don't
want it to go too fast. I needed something that
was consistent and stable, but also something that went at
a gradual pace and wasn't necessarily that supercharged all or
(24:22):
nothing experience that I had in the previous relationship. I
also needed to feel like I was being listened to
and needed to feel like my partner fed back when
they weren't happy with things in a way that was respectful.
Those were my main things that I really had strong
boundaries around.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Would you articulated to the current boyfriend and expressed clearly.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, actually we're doing a long distance at the moment,
But I set up front, I don't want to be
moving in anytime soon. I don't really want to have
shared resources at any point in the near future. And
those the things that he provides that I needed to
feel more secure in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Let me ask you spent hours talking about the X.
There's absolutely something about being vulnerable with people that brings
people closer. I'm curious about how soon after that the
ex was seeded into the background in this relationship, or
how present they were or are still in the conversation
(25:26):
between the two of you.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Not super present in the day to day conversation. Annoyingly,
there's practicalities. We did buy a house together, and so
that's still undergoing mediation, and so every now and then
that pops up. But there are tiny little things, for instance,
when we go to the shops and we're going to
buy things, and you'll be like, oh, do you like
these grapes? And I'll be like, I don't really eat
those anymore because they were my ex's favorite. And then
(25:50):
we'll talk about it briefly and then it'll be gone.
But that still does occasionally pop up. I would say,
maybe like once every two weeks or so, there'll be
something that maybe one of us is triggered by, or
one of us picks up that is an annoyance because
it's related to that shared AX.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
It comes up for both of you. He also mentions
the X.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
It comes up more for me, I would say, than him.
I am sort of more the one to say, oh,
that's something he would have liked. And I don't know
if that's because I spent longer with the AX, or
whether it's because I've got more of a hang up
about it. Maybe both.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
You said in your letter that you have trouble setting
boundaries with your current boyfriend because of the X. We
haven't quite heard that. Tell us where that's operating, and
give us an example of that difficulty.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
For me, my boundaries around the speed of which things
are moving about prioritizing my career, about prioritizing my friendships.
That mean a lot to me. Means that sometimes he's
asking for things and I'm saying no. My worry around
that is if I'm the one saying no for a
really long time, that resem when we'll build up. And
(27:01):
at the moment he's been very frank that that's not
the case. But every now and then at flare is
that like, I'm not meeting this person's needs or expectations,
and I'm not being the best partner I could be
to this man. The way in which we met, I
just was the messier one insofar as I had more
of these attachments to this person that neither of us
(27:24):
wanted to be attached to. And so I think feeling
as the messier one and then having the more firm
boundaries because of that, I feel like I'm the bad cop.
More often do you.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Talk about that in the relationship? Do you ask him
how he feels about the fact that you're more boundaried
in taking it slower than maybe he wants.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yes, I often say like, oh, I'm sorry, I know, Oh.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
See, but that's you apologizing. What I'm asking is, do
you say to him, I'm feeling worried about the fact
that I'm setting these boundaries and that it might affect
our relationship, as opposed to apologizing preemptively. Do you ever
say this is just how I'm feeling and how are
you feeling about it?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I have verbalized sort of saying I think he sort
of has been pretty clear that one day he wants
to move to the same spot and live together, and
I've very clearly stated that's not going to be a while,
just based on my work, And so I worry that
I'm holding you back.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I think that you're not really stating you're worry It
sounds like you're worry is I'm worried that you will
want to leave me? Yeah, yeah, there's a smile. I'm
worried that you will want to leave me if I
don't move at a certain pace. I'm worried that you
will want to leave me if I continue to say
(28:45):
no to these things at this time. It's interesting because
you're fine saying, hey, I don't want to eat these
grapes because they remind me of the ex, but you're
not so fine saying I'm really worried that you're going
to leave me that you're not going to want to
be with me.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, lost aversion is something that I've been afraid of
in all my relationships. I probably stuck around too long
and a lot of them just for fear of losing someone.
So I think the longer into this relationship it goes,
the more I do want to do things to bring
us closer, but also the more afraid I am that
(29:21):
potentially I could lose someone I'm starting to care deeply
about because I can't meet that need.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
In your letter, you say that you're worried that the
connection that you initially had around the X and coming
together to have those conversations is maybe too much a
part of the relationship, and I would say that that
doesn't seem like the real issue in terms of how
the EX is too much a part of the relationship.
(29:49):
I think the EX is too much a part of
the relationship because you're bringing those abandonment fears from that
old relationship into this relationship. So I don't think the
X is so much the issue. I think the feelings
that you had around the X of being abandoned you're
projecting onto your current partner, and I think you're with
(30:12):
a very different kind of partner. By your description, sounds
like a very different kind of relationship. And you're still
holding back because you have those feelings that you had
in the old relationship, even though they're not so relevant
to this new relationship.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
That's true. Anytime I bring anything like this up, my
partner's pretty quick to support and sort of reassure and
tell me all the things that hass and me, and
it is a different kind of feeling. I do think
that I'm bringing those worries and concerns from the previous
relationships into this one. And I guess that's why I
(30:54):
didn't want to get into a relationship, because I felt
like I wasn't ready. I think that I probably am
bringing the old ones into this one, but I don't
want to necessarily throw this one away because I'm not ready.
How do I grow in it?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
You know? I think you are, though, because you're saying
that you're actually implementing a lot of the lessons learned
from the X in the current relationship. You're actually holding
onto your boundaries really really well. From what I hear.
The feelings, though, are still there. And here's why. When
you adopt a new behavior, there was a reason you
(31:33):
weren't setting a lot of boundaries in the previous relationship,
and it wasn't just about your ex It was about
a fear you were probably bringing into that relationship of
if I express my needs too much, they will run,
so let me not do that. And here, despite that fear,
you're holding onto the timeline that you thought was best
for this relationship. There's this transitionary period when we adopt
(31:56):
new behaviors and overcome the old fears, where the old
fears really manifest and it's like, oh, you're doing something dangerous.
You're doing something risky, but you know in your head
you're doing something right. Psychologically, when we adopt a new behavior,
it takes our feelings a while to catch up and
feel comfortable about doing that new behavior. We kind of
(32:18):
have to see that the sky doesn't fall for a
while before we can start to feel a little bit
calmer about it.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Does that make sense, Yeah, it does. You guys are
like hitting on me feeling this torn feeling that I've
been feeling, and you're articulating it far better than I could.
In my previous relationships. I felt like I couldn't express
myself and had to push it down, and now I'm
on the other end of the spectrum sort of expressing
(32:45):
myself and feeling internal guilt for that.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And I think you feel that guilt because it's so
strongly associated with how you felt in that previous relationship.
But I think that that's something you came into that
relationship with, You've had that for a long time. It's
just this is maybe the first relationship that you've had
where you're not experiencing someone who's invalidating what you need.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah, it is interesting because my current boyfriend is the
one who very clearly says I would feel like that too. Actually,
I did feel like that. He's been very accommodating, which
I think is not something that I was used to previously,
but also feels really foreign and almost unsettling in a
way because a part of me, and I know this
(33:31):
isn't right, but a part of me feels why does
he like me this much?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Well?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Is he willing to stick around with the mess of me?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
In your last relationship? You said that your boyfriend had
trust issues, and I think these are your trust issues.
You're not so much around. Let me check your phone,
you're around. I don't understand why you are staying with
me even though I'm showing you the truth of who
I am. Every time I show you who I am,
(34:00):
you stay with me. What's wrong with you? Or do
you not really see me? And are you really seeing
this thing here? Because I don't know why you're still
staying if you're really seeing me. So these are your
trust issues.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Yeah, And I think I feel a lot harder because
of this life mess that I have with this X,
because I still have those attachments and I didn't get
out sooner and my current boyfriend could see the signs
a lot earlier.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
You know, you've used the word messy numerous times today.
You're the mess. The relationship was a mess. You're messy.
How come this new tidy boyfriend who got out after
a month and a half rather than however many months
in the house has to tolerate your messiness by still
being in mediation. To me, at least, you don't sound
(34:49):
very messy. I'm trying to make the point with you
that you actually are doing the right things. You just
have to manage the emotional discomfort of the novelty of
that for you and the anxiety Itthea has LOWI said
that fear of abandonment that was baked in that if
you actually do express yourself and show who you are,
that somebody will be like, oh no, no, no, that's not
good because that was the experience with the EX is
(35:11):
more than one.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
So tell us the main concern in your letter was
how the X is showing up in this relationship. Tell
us where you think that's happening. Besides oh, the grapes
I don't want to eat because he used to eat them.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I think it's in three different spheres. I think there's
the physical means, so sort of me being financially tied
to it. Still. There's the practical means, where like we
see things and have shared experiences and have shared places
that I kind of don't really want to go because
they remind me of the EX or because that's where
(35:50):
the X lives. And then there's also the emotional stuff,
which is every now and then I sort of get
triggered sort of where I'm like, oh, that reminded me
of that thing that happened and makes me feel really unsettled.
And I think expressing that every sort of now and
then I worry that given our shared history, that that's
(36:14):
going to keep happening.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I think the other worry you expressed was that maybe
because you felt such a strong connection around your shared
experience with the ex, that you start to question your
compatibility with your current partner. Even though everything you've said
today has made it seem like separate from the ex,
the two of you seem very very compatible. So what
(36:39):
do you worry about in terms of your compatibility or
this fear of your not seeing the red flags? As
you said in your letter.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
A part of me is really worried because the trust
being so easy and mutual in the way that we met,
I worry that it seems almost too good to be true,
Like am I missing a key thing? Or is there
something wrong with me and something wrong with my current
(37:06):
partner that attracted us both to the ex? Or is
there something that he saw in both of us that's
gonna like drop at some point that we actually were
overlooking because we've been so wrapped up in this sort
of ease.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
This is exactly what Laurie was saying earlier. It's not
a fear about your ex. It's a fear about I'm
bringing my full self to this relationship. I am not
hiding my needs, my wants my feelings, and it's really
scary that me doing that truly for the first time
will result in I'll get rejected at some point. And
(37:44):
it's exactly what you said. It's like, this feels too
good to be true. What am I missing? And so
far Laurie and I are telling you that you seem
to be really covering all the bases. It seems things
like the communication is where it should be, that your
planning is going at a rate that you felt was
(38:08):
important to be slow enough, which is what it is,
that you have aligned goals for the future, and that
when someone's really listening to you and seeing you and
responding well, it's scary because of a history of that
not being the case. It really does sound like, oh,
(38:30):
this appeels too good to be true, so something must
be wrong that I'm missing. I need outside council to
come and do the vetting because I can't trust that
that feeling of it seems to be going well is
actually accurate. What if it were accurate? What if it
actually is going well?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Do you feel terrified? You look terrified.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
I just think it's like too easy. It seems weird
that something positives come out from something so negative and
that it was just a genuine connection that is really
not expected, and like it just seems like the best
thing that's come out of a really terrible situation. And
a lot of people that I've told have said, oh,
(39:12):
you're not supposed to date your ex's ex.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
What rule book is that written in?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I know you didn't get that one.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I know.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
I think that you soothe your anxiety by having anxiety.
Your anxiety is so familiar to you, it's been with
you for so long that when you don't have anxiety,
you become anxious. If I am anxious, then I can
be hypervigilant and I can make sure that I'm not
(39:41):
going to get hurt. But that hasn't actually worked, And
here you're actually being overly hypervigilant. So it's almost like
you weren't vigilant enough in the other relationships. Ironically, the
ones where you needed to look out for those signs,
you were not paying enough attention to them when they
did happen, and they happened quite frequently. In the last
(40:02):
relationship and the inn this relationship, there are no real
big red flags. Things come up, you guys deal with them.
If I don't have my anxiety, which is my shield,
which protects me, which makes sure that I'm not going
to be devastated and gutted again in the way that
I had been. But the problem is your anxiety is
going to make you not move forward in a healthy relationship.
(40:27):
You will find some reason, and right now that reason
is it's the shadow of the X. And so this
relationship is doomed because it started this way. So no
matter how great it is now, it doesn't really matter
because everyone says you're not supposed to start a relationship
that way. That's very convenient, but it doesn't really reflect
the reality of the relationship you're in.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
One of the issues is that your attribution for why
things are going well is not aimed correctly. You told
us that you were in one relationship after another in
which you want bringing yourself, you want speaking up, you
want expressing your needs sufficiently, and you leave this relationship
and you go to therapy and you work on yourself,
(41:11):
and then you're in a relationship and despite the discomfort,
despite the anxiety of doing it, you are doing all
these very difficult, correct things. And that is why the
relationship is going well, not because your ex costs a
spell on you both in some kind of way.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I'm thinking about your ex and his trust issues, in
the way that he always needed to be reassured that
you were not stepping out on him, And I feel
like you do that to yourself, that you're doing what
your ex did to you, but to yourself. You're always
checking on yourself. Am I looking for everything? Am I
making sure that I'm not missing anything? It sounds exhausting
(41:55):
the way that it was exhausting to be with your
ex when he would always say you see your phone
and what are you doing? And who are you with?
It was really becoming intolerable. And you're not letting yourself
just trust in this relationship. I'm talking about trust yourself,
not your partner. You don't trust yourself enough in this
relationship to say I don't need to look for disaster ahead.
(42:18):
I need to be aware. I can't have my head
in the sand, but I don't need to be wondering
where the next disaster is coming from.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Because I'm doing all the right things. That's why I
don't need to worry.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
We just saw you, Tira, tell us more about that.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
I think it just comes from a place of not
feeling good enough, and I just feel good enough, like
I feel like I am a good communicator, I feel
like I do bring a lot to the table. I
do have a lot of value to add in a relationship.
And you're probably right. The uncomfortable feeling is the pushback
(42:56):
against that. And potentially the reason I bring my ex
into that conversation a lot is because he often said
I wasn't and now I don't need to be that
perfect partner. But I wasn't expecting this from this session.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
And that's what touched you right now. You got in
touch with that feeling you said it. But what touched
you when you tear it up is you got in
touch with the feeling of I think I might be
good enough. I think I am good enough because I've
worked so hard. That's what it's touching you again, because
you're tearing up again. Sorry, No, we don't apologize for
(43:29):
having feelings.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
We call those happy tears. Yes, because you're smiling as
you're tearing up. You've got a big smile on your face.
And even if these were sad tears, there's no need
to apologize for them. And I'll bet that your boyfriend
doesn't expect an apology when you are feeling whatever you're
feeling and sharing that with him.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
No, he doesn't.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, I cry a lot and he's there.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Yeah, Yeah, it's good. I don't know getting older. I've
just started crying watching like sad movies. But it's good.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
It's not getting older. It's all the work you've done
to get in touch with how you feel and what
you want and give that room and space that opens
you up, so you're open. When you watch a sad movie.
You can cry because that's what sad movies are supposed
to make you do. You couldn't cry before because you
were too defended, because you're being attacked all the time.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
It's also just nice having someone who doesn't have any expectations,
Like the expectation is I am me, and he likes that.
Whereas I think the thing that I tapped into is
potentially I've put the most expectations on myself, and yes,
(44:44):
other people put those on me, but I take them
on and hold them, and so I think some of
the tears were also just a bit of like the
person who has the least expectations in my life at
the moment, or my partner and that's pretty special.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I want to maybe reframe that for you. I think
your partner has very high expectations and that's why he
picked you. You make it sound like he had no expectations,
so whatever, he'll settle for me kind of thing. He
has very high expectations. He wants someone who is present
and open and loving and warm and compassionate and knows
(45:21):
how to set boundaries and knows how to check in
with him and that's why he's with you because he
has really high expectations. So it's not just, oh, he
doesn't have any expectations, so that's why he's staying with me.
He's staying with me because he has high expectations and
I am good enough. That's a very different way of
(45:42):
looking at it. I think you both have very high
expectations and you've chosen people who meet those expectations, and
neither of you had that before.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
So, Andrew, we have some advice you, And here's part one.
We want you and your boyfriend, each of you to
separately make a list, and the list is why things
are going well, Why we can trust in our feeling
that this is indeed going well. What are the things
(46:20):
we're doing and then we would like you, when you're together,
to read each other your lists and discuss because we
think it's really important that you each understand that things
are going well because of the openness, the communication, and
the work you're each putting into it.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
The idea behind this just to keep in mind as
you're doing it, is you seem to not really trust
that it could be going this well, that there must
be something wrong, there must be something that you're not seeing,
there's some red flag that you're missing. It's all going
to blow up, and so we want you to see
that there are reasons why this is going well and
that both of you are contributing to that in a
(47:00):
way that hasn't happened in your other relationships. The next
thing we'd like you to do is to make another list,
and this has to do with your question about whether
you're good enough, and we'd like you to write down
all of the things that make you an appealing partner,
all of the reasons that someone would be thrilled to
beat with you. Why is your boyfriend with you because
(47:21):
he has really high standards and this is what you bring.
And every time you start to doubt and say, am
I good enough? Am I too messy? All of those
questions that you have. We want you to take out
that list and look at it again.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
Okay, I can do that. I am preemptively embarrassed, but
I will do that.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Good.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Good, Yes, we can see because you went silent. And
that's why we think you need to have it on
paper where you can look at it, not just in
your head. But we need you to write it down
and have it maybe posted above your desk and on
the bathroom mirror. Is something that you need to look
at frequently. Related to that, because this is really about
your anxiety, we'd like you to do a little reading.
(48:05):
And the book that we want to suggest is called
The Anxiety Toolkit by Alice Boyce Boyes because the book
is just extremely practical.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Here's the next thing. Laurie and I both feel that
the reason you wrote to us was because you wanted
us to vet the fact that this seems to be
going well. But I'm obviously missing something and I can't
find it. Please help me find it so I know
what's wrong. And we think that you do that with
(48:36):
your friends as well. When your friends say to you
it's not wise perhaps to be in a relationship with
somebody who dated your ex. It's probably because you're setting
them up to say that by your presentation of like,
this probably crazy, but we met, we have the same
ex and that couldn't go well, right, And your friends
are like, he wants to hear right, and you say yes, yes,
(48:57):
you should be careful. So we'd like you to go
to each friend who validated incorrectly that this was problematic
and actually say to them, hey, I know I came
to you to validate my fears and my anxieties and
to think about the catastrophe that's looming so I can
see it coming because I don't see it coming yet.
(49:20):
But actually things are going quite well, and I wanted
to tell you about that and tell you a little
bit about why I think they're going well. So you
correct the impression so that your friends around you are
not sitting there waiting to cherry pick anything bad that happens.
Go to your friends to tell them it's working and
here's why. And do that with each of the ones
(49:42):
that you went to to get the validation for the
doom and gloom that isn't here.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
To my friend's credit, they I think are just being
protective after what I went through previously, but I can
definitely do that. I think they'd be open to hearing
that feedback because I think everyone's been very protective and
it would be nice to have some positives.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
If you do anything with them like you did with us,
you're inviting the negativity and you're not saying enough about
what is going really well and what makes you really happy.
And we had to really really pull that out of you.
So they're not working with the full picture here. They
don't know how well it's going. They don't know how
(50:23):
happy you are. You could say, I'm really terrified because
it is going so well, but I'm being boundaried. I'm
taking it slowly, I am protecting myself, and I feel
really good with the foundation that we're setting here. So
we need your friends to have a much fuller picture
so that when they do give you feedback, it's based
on how the relationship is actually going and not the
(50:45):
anxiety and the catastrophizing and the inviting disaster. The last
thing we would like you to start reclaiming the grapes,
And what I mean by that is there are these
places and spaces and food that you associate with your
ex and it still makes the X loom so large
(51:06):
in your life, but you're moving on to a different chapter.
And so if there are things that you truly enjoy,
maybe it's grapes, maybe it's a restaur hut, and it
doesn't have the shadow of the X looming over it.
The only way that the X really has an effect
on your life right now is the gift that your
ex gave both of you, which is that it taught
(51:28):
you both what you want and need in the next
relationship and how to do the work and how to
be different. That's the legacy of your EX. We don't
want it to be and we can't coach to this
restaurant and we can't eat these foods. Your X gave
you something so valuable and now you're reaping the benefits.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
And when you do go to these places and have
those grapes, intentionally create new associations around them that have
nothing to do with your X. Don't just go to
the restaurant for the sake of doing it, but go
for a happy occasion where celebrating something that's meaningful and
really intentionally create new associations to kind of eradicate the
(52:07):
old ones.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
So how does all this advice.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Sound that sounds really good. Thank you excellent.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Well, we really look forward to hearing how this goes
for you this week.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
Thank you guys so much for your help and your
patients helping me pull it out of me. I apologize
for potentially having circular thoughts.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
One more apology and you're going to get another task
and to eradicate apologies.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
We're going to give you a non apology homework. If
you apologize again.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
You do not need to apologize.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
And just to say, your podcast did really help me
when I was going through a really tough time. I
think I did an eighteen and a half hour driver
a couple of days and listen to all of them.
So thanks for your help.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
You know, Laurie, I remember in season one we had
a letter that the subtext of the letter was am
I a scumba? And hear the subtext of the session
not the letter, was am I happy? And I think
our answer was, yeah, we think you're kind of happy,
albeit worried about it. And it was interesting to see
(53:15):
that time and again Andrew came back to, oh, but
this might be a problem, but that might be a problem,
and then hearing about the relationship it was all so
solid that it was just very nice to be able
to say, no, this is truly going quite well.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
And I think he puts up these walls because he's
so wary that there's some red flag out there that
he's missing. It's important for him to be aware of
what's going on in the relationship, but if he's always
looking for a potential problem, he's never going to be
able to be really present. And as we said, enjoy
(53:53):
the happiness that he's actually experiencing. You're listening to, dear therapists.
We'll be back after a short break. Well, guy, we
(54:19):
heard back from Andrew, and let's hear how his week went.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
Dear Laurie and Guy, your revice actually came at a
really good time. My partner recently visited and we went
on a prolonged two and a half day hike, which
was perfect time to sort of talk about everything that
we feel and we had a lot of time to
sort of connect. It was quite enlightening because I created
(54:44):
a list of all the things that I thought made
me an appealing partner and also what was working well
on the relationship. And it turns out after talking about
that with my partner, he'd made a list quite early
on in the relationship of all the things that he
liked in me, all the things that he thought were
green flags, and he decided to share that with me.
(55:05):
And it was nice to sort of validate some of
the things that I felt about myself, but also see
myself through someone else's eyes in terms of linking how
I was feeling and all the doubts that I had
to my anxiety and stemming that all back to potential
(55:26):
self hatred and self doubt that had crept in and
maybe flared after a break up with my AX, which
I think potentially my partner was also feeling at the
time and also shares that feeling. It is nice to
know that by talking these things through together and dispelling
our anxieties through love and validation, it's been kind of
(55:51):
special to do that with my partner. Unfortunately I haven't
gotten around to reading the Anxiety Toolkit, but it is
top of my list. I did talk to my friends
and talked through how potentially the way that I was
discussing the relationship was filled with self doubt, and they
reiterated that notion, but also said that they'll continue to
(56:15):
look out for me and that was affirming as well.
I think I'm really lucky and have good friends who
do care, and it's nice to share this part of
my relationship and my life with them. In terms of
the reclaiming the Greats, we have actually started on that
one too, almost inspired by the food trope, I have
been cooking more and I've been deciding to make some
(56:37):
meals that I used to make in the previous relationship,
but with ingredient twists to cater to my current partner,
and it's a good way to show that I care
and for us to connect. So thank you for all
your help and advice. It's actually I think brought me
closer together with my partner, and I hope to carry
it forward in the future and work on that. Anxiety
(57:00):
selped out a little bit so that I stopped second
guessing things that might just be healthy and good.
Speaker 1 (57:10):
We don't really have much to say because he did
everything so beautifully. I love that his partner already had
that list, that he had made one himself, and it
was at the ready.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
I know that really happens. That really happens, that we
give over work and the partner's like none it already anticipated.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
Exactly exactly, but it shows two that he was thinking
through things, that the partner's very thoughtful, sounds like they're
a very good match, and that they're self reflective. They're
both going into this after having dated this person that
affected them in different ways. They're being very aware of
the kind of relationship that they want. So I think
the partner made that list thinking I'm going to be
(57:51):
very aware going into this new relationship, and we know
that Andrew wants to be very aware going into this
new relationship too.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
I agree. And what occurred to me was that they
met through this ex that each of them had dated,
and they thought that was a problem for the relationship.
But what it did is it forced them both to
be very attentive to the relationship, mindful of how they're feeling,
mindful of how things are developing. It might have turned
out to be a gift in that way because it
(58:20):
really put them on such a positive communicative note and
thinking note from day one, which I think is really
serving them now too.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Yeah, and even though this was a very specific situation,
not a lot of people start dating because they dated
the same person. I think this applies to everybody in
terms of how do I deal with the ghosts of
my past as I go into a new relationship. Like
when he's reclaiming the grapes, he's doing something that gives
him pleasure and he's not associating it now with the ex,
but he's saying, and I've kind of tweaked the recipe,
(58:49):
so it applies to this new relationship and all of
the second guessing that people do after they've been hurt
in a former relationship. He's really learning how to manage that.
Look at what is actually happening now versus what am
I spinning in my mind? That is not something that's
a red flag. This wasn't a one time exercise. This
was a way of being in the relationship as they
(59:12):
go forward and move past whatever history they had with
the ex and see who they are to each other.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
I think the moral of the story in this relationship
is true for all relationships, and that is pay a
lot of attention at the beginning, be excited, go with
the flow, but be mindful and be thoughtful from day one.
Next week, a woman whose family disowned her after she
refused to loan her father a huge amount of money.
(59:41):
One does how to grieve the loss and how to
trust again. That evening when I call me, I thought
he wanted to apologize, but then it was all about
I'm not your dad anymore, You're not my daughter anymore.
We're just strangers now.
Speaker 1 (59:54):
You mean nothing to me. If you're enjoying our podcast,
don't forget to subscribe for free so you don't miss
any episodes, and please help support to your therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at Lauriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive
producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,
additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our
intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our
(01:00:30):
podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see
you at our next session. The Therapist is a production
of iHeartRadio, Fish Food
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.