March 30, 2023 • 55 mins
In episode 7 of Death, Grief And Other Shit We Don't Discuss, Kyle McMahon discusses how his support system got him through and the surprise at how some rose up and some disappeared in the wake of his Mother's death.
Then, Kyle talks with University of Virginia developmental psychologist and researcher Dr. Jessica Stern, about how attachment to our loved ones - and our support systems - profoundly affect our grieving processes.
💜 Pancreatic Cancer Action Network 💜
A. Joanne McMahon Foundation
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm just a book way fearing stranger traveling through this
world below. There's no seedness danger in that bride word
(00:31):
to which I go, Welcome to death, grief and other
shit we don't discuss. I'm Kyle McMahon. The rush of
the funeral was now over. Dad and I were back
in the car, headed to Aunt Cathy's for the funeral reception.
(00:53):
I always thought it was weird that you'd have a
sort of sad party after a funeral. Some call it
a you passed, Others call it a celebration of life.
I call it weird, hard sad. At least for me.
The last thing I feel like doing after burying a
(01:15):
loved one at a funeral is going and talking to
people about them while eating tiny sausages. For me, it's
just a strange tradition, and I guess I get the
point behind it. Funeral receptions are meant to allow loved
ones to connect over the deceased, to tell stories and
commemorate their life. It's just that for me, it's so
(01:38):
very sad, especially when it's my own mom. After the reception,
I went back home and got out of my dress
pants and suit and into some comfortable sweats and a
T shirt and laid in bed with blue to zone
out to bad reality TV shows. Immediately a text from Michelle,
(02:01):
who asked me if I wanted to come over, and
although I really didn't want to leave my bubble, I
figured I really should get out and do something, so
I headed over there. I'm really lucky to have her,
you see. Over the week or so that Mom had passed,
I had so many people that had been reaching out
to me. There were hundreds of texts and calls and
(02:24):
voicemails and messages. I couldn't muster the will to pick
up or to respond to most of them. And there
was no rhyme or reason to who I picked up
for or didn't, and it wasn't intentional. I was just
overwhelmed and numb and lost. I was just going through
the motions. At that point. I was still processing the
(02:47):
newness of this, and I certainly didn't want to keep
reliving it over and over and over telling people what
had happened and how I was feeling. I just couldn't
do it right then. I was surprised by a number
of people's reactions, though some surprised me in a good way,
while others surprised me in a different way. One friend,
(03:13):
who had gone to the funeral I hadn't really heard
from in the week prior. She eventually texted me to
apologize for not being there like she should have. She said,
I didn't know what to say, and I didn't want
to upset you. I responded that you didn't have to
say anything in particular, you could just start with HI.
(03:37):
Her and I were always texting each other funny memes
back and forth, so her absence over the last week
or so had definitely been noticed. She said, I feel
like you'd think it was insensitive to send you a
meme when your mom has just passed, And I said,
I totally get where you're coming from, but so you know,
for the next person, I probably would have appreciated that
(03:59):
moment of laughter. She apologized again and told me that
if I needed anything, she would be there, and in reality,
I knew that if I had reached out to her,
she would be there. So many of my friends were
my family, people that I work with. I'm very lucky
(04:21):
to have a great support system, and that's a good
thing to remind myself too. In order to be there
for my loved ones during times when they lose someone
that they love. Now that I have the experience of it,
on the other side, I know, at least for me,
that anyone could have texted or called or FaceTime like
they always have. And if I couldn't muster the energy
(04:44):
to pick up my phone at that moment, then I
just wouldn't. And again, it was nothing personal to them.
It could have been anybody. At that time. I had
friends that really really rose to the occasion. People were
dropping off food from myself, Elf and Dad. People were
taking us to dinner, inviting us over. Things like that
(05:05):
really helped. I mean, I didn't cook dinner on a
good day, so I certainly wasn't even thinking about food
during this time. My parents neighbors Wayning Diane, they had
invited us over for dinner. Brandon had taken me out
for dinner to talk if I wanted to talk or
we could just eat, he said. My friend Tamika had
(05:27):
dropped off a tray of food at my house. And
it's funny because at the time that she had texted me,
I just so happened to not pick up because I
was in one of those moments and she texted and
made me laugh. I don't care if you pick up
or not. My ass is coming over and seeing you,
And that made me laugh so much and know that
(05:47):
I really am loved. My friend Courtney had texted me
throughout the entire thing and just said I'm here for
you if you need me, and so did Jeff and
In and Luke. Even Mom's friends were dropping off food
for Dad and myself. I saw one friend the day
(06:10):
after the funeral by pure coincidence, a very very close
friend who I had been there for through his own
father's passing. In fact, i'd been there earlier that night
watching a movie. We knew his father's time was coming soon,
and eventually I wanted to give them some space to
say their goodbye, so I headed home. Within thirty minutes,
(06:33):
he had called me saying as Dad was gone. So
I got back in the car and went over there
just to be there for him and his family in
whatever way I could. He didn't want to talk, he
wasn't one of those people. He just wanted me there
and we ended up falling asleep on the floor watching
a movie. I was there for him in whatever capacity
he needed, and for him that meant just being physically present,
(06:55):
and so I was. And now I've run into him
the day after my mom's funeral, where he wasn't there,
and so I asked him, where were you for mom's funeral?
He had been to my parents' house a million times,
and my mom had done so much for him as
his mom had done for me. He nonchalantly replied, I
(07:18):
knew the church would be at capacity, so I figured
other people should be there before me. And while anger
and hurt fueled through my body, I could only reply
with we had saved you a seat with the family.
You would have known that, but I didn't hear from
you at all. I didn't have the energy to fight
(07:43):
with him about it. I didn't have the energy to
tell him how selfish that was, or how he could
have simply asked me or just texted me to let
me know he was thinking about me. Were asked if
I needed anything at all, such as his physical presence.
The fact of the matter, as I realized in that
moment that his own selfishness and lack of empathy was
(08:05):
his own very large dysfunction, and I was in no
position whatsoever to argue with that, not in that moment
to this day, that still hurts me. It seems there
were a few people very close to me that didn't
show up in the way that I expected them to
(08:27):
that I needed them to. Another good friend I had
texted the moment we got the funeral info to let
him know so he could make arrangements to be there,
and he responded, I'm not coming, Kyle. I don't do
funerals and crying. You know that I'll grieve in my
own way. I replied to him, but I need you
(08:48):
there for me. I didn't get a reply back. He's
another one that has been to my parents' house and
family events and have been a good friend for a
long time. But despite the ones who so deeply hurt
me in my worst moments, so many others surprised me. Jason,
(09:09):
which is no surprise, was there as a constant day
and night. If he hadn't heard from me for a
few hours, he'd text me to see how I was.
And that was whether he was at work or at
the gym, or at home with his wife and young
son JJ and newborn Braxton. He showed up over and
over and over again, and to this day he continues
(09:32):
to show up. In fact, so many of my close
friends were checking in on me, stopping by asking if
I needed anything, and of course my family as well.
I was leaning heavily on Dad and Kim and Aunt
Kathy and uncle Tom and TJ, and my aunt Kathleen
(09:52):
and Uncle Kevin and Aunt Michelle and my cousins. I
was leaning on everybody close to me, heavily and strangely,
as alone as I really really felt without Mom here,
I had a small army of people there for me
that were just the text away. A text from Militia
(10:14):
actually said this is a quote, you are never alone.
Those four words helped me more than she'll ever ever know.
Kat my programming director from my heart, said we will
get you through this. That's what she texted me. Her
strength helped me when I had none of my own.
(10:38):
My cousin TJ showed up just to see how I
was doing, and although I didn't even want to get
out of bed to open the door, I'm glad that
I did. Through my grief journey, I'm learning that some
people aren't the people you thought they were, and some
are more incredible than you could have ever imagined. People
(11:02):
were showing up for me in whatever way they could.
They were reminders that at some point I was going
to have to show up for myself too, because that's
certainly not something that I was doing at that moment.
This grief journey was going to be a hard, windy
road that never ends. I'll always be on that journey
(11:25):
of grieving my mom, but I've got a strong support
system that will help me through it. And that's not
something that just appeared. That's something that I've actively worked
on to show up for them too. Did you know
(11:47):
that when you have a secure attachment with your loved
one that has passed, there are actual physiological changes that
happen to your body, both through their death and again
whenever you're actively thinking about them. Doctor Jesse Stern is
a developmental psychologist at University of Virginia who studies attachments
(12:07):
and their effect on various stages of life. Attachments or
lack of them, have profound effects or not just our relationships,
but our entire lives when we return. Doctor Stern and
I explore how attachments to our loved ones that have
passed and our attachments to our support systems can help
(12:28):
or hurt our grieving process. Doctor Jesse Stern has dedicated
her life to examining attachments, parenting, social neuroscience, child social
(12:51):
emotional development, and relationships. Her deep study in these topics
have made her an expert in attachments, human relationships, and
support systems. I wanted to see just how important support
systems were in both life and death. But first we
had to start with the basics, Like what is attachment anyway?
(13:16):
Attachment is kind of the bond that you have with
another person. It's a specific type of relationship. It's one
where you lean on the other person for support when
you need it. So this is not just a casual
acquaintance or someone you like hanging out with that it's
the friend you call when you really need help. So
(13:36):
those kinds of attachments can be really different from one
person to the next because the quality of our relationships
is super different. So I'm interested in how the quality
of your relationship with somebody, Are they reliable, are they trustworthy?
How does that allow you to go out into the
world do the things you want to do, and also
pay forward that kindness to other people. So some of
(13:58):
my work shows that if you have a secure attachment,
let's say, to a parent when you're a teenager, you're
more likely to be able to show your close friends
empathy from the time you're sixteen all the way through
early adulthood, which is pretty cool. That is awesome. And
I know this is anecdotal, but I can testify to
that fact. You know, I had extremely secure relationship with
(14:22):
my mom and dad, and both of them were are
very loving type of people that you don't leave without
saying love you, you know, even if you're mad, and
that sort of thing. And I would say, I'm a
pretty empathetic person and with you know, all of my
friends and other relationships. So I think that's interesting because
(14:43):
I can kind of relate to that totally. Yeah, I
can see it in your own life. Well, you're very
lucky to have not one, but two secure relationships. And actually,
what we know is that those sources of security can
build on each other right as sources of resilience. So
if you have one parent with whom you actually you
don't have a great relationship, but you have a great
(15:03):
best friend who you can trust, it kind of compensates
for the difficult relationship you have at home. So I
often say to my students, like, who maybe aren't as
lucky as you to have these great parents You can't
choose your family, but you can choose your friends. So
try to choose the friends who make you feel most secure.
Same with romantic partners. If you can find a romantic
(15:26):
partner who makes you feel really settled in your body
and who you feel like you can lean on when
times are hard, those are really the good litmus tests
for a relationship going forward. Wow. So, knowing this background,
what do we see when it comes to grief? You know,
I lost my mom, who was the closest person to
(15:48):
me in the world. It's a pancratic cancer and oh,
I'm so sorry, thank you she was. I still sometimes
talk about her in the present, but I was so
close with her that what I'm learning is that it's
not something I'm ever going to get over. Through doing
this series, I'm learning that, you know, grief is not
(16:10):
something you get over it. You know, you don't move
on from that person. You just learn how to live
with their absence. Yeah, and grief may take different forms
throughout our lives going forward, but it's always going to
be there somehow, and it's it's kind of how we
(16:32):
handle it, you know. And so so that's why I'm
you know, doing the show is just exploring all of
all of these things. What have you seen with various
attachments relating to someone that you love that's passing or
you know is going to pass. Yeah, it's such a
good question. The first thing to know is that we
(16:56):
grieve because we love, so grief and attachment are in
extreably intertwined. We lose many things over the course of
our lives, just the nature of impermanence. Right. We lose
our keys, we lose a water bottle on the subway.
But you know, if I had a set of keys
that belonged to my grandmother with whom I was very
close and I lost that set of keys, suddenly I
(17:18):
grieve for lost keys. And why is that? Because we
start to associate objects or places or activities with the
people we love. And that's actually one of the amazing
things about the human mind is that we can represent
the people who were close to in our minds so
(17:39):
that they can be present and alive in memory even
when they're not physically present or no longer alive. So
it yes, this is my mom's ring. Yeah, I think
that's really beautiful. And in fact, with the data shows
is that if you're aware that the person has passed
on and you're you're not in denial about that fact,
(18:01):
but you're keeping them alive psychologically, and you keep them
with you here in your heart. That's actually associated with
pretty positive outcomes. These are called continuing bonds, and it's
the idea that just because the person close to you
has died, the relationship doesn't end. You're still connected to
that person and also calling to mind the positive aspects
(18:24):
of the relationship can be a source of security and
comfort even during the grieving process. So it might not
feel good necessarily to think about your mom when the
grief is fresh, but with some time and space, her
memory will be a source of security for you. This
is actually something we do in our research quite a bit.
(18:47):
Is called security priming, and regardless of whether you have
a secure attachment or not in your daily life, you
can increase your felt sense of security or your sense
of state of call home, and you can lower your
heart rate and your blood pressure by doing this. If
I ask you to close your eyes and think of
(19:07):
the person you can most depend on to be there
for you in times of trouble, and just picture their
face and imagine being with them. Typically people's breathing slows down.
They have a sense of calm Physiologically, they sometimes say
I feel warm. Other folks say they feel happy, But
this cluster of words is always the same. I do
(19:28):
this in all my classes. All the students say the
same thing about the feelings that it conjures up. And
what's interesting about this is just that felt sense can
get you a lot of the benefits of actually being
a securely attached person. So if you're insecure with your relationships,
you can try practicing this yourself, just with one person
who you can trust. You're more likely to be empathic
(19:50):
to someone. You're more likely to hold more positive views
of outgroup members or people different from you. You can
regulate your emotions a little bit better. You get all
these benefits from it. So why not. But let's talk
a little bit about how you know if you don't
have that security, what that means for grief. One thing
(20:12):
we know is that for folks who have an anxious
attachment style, this would be somebody who worries a lot
about their relationships and especially is worried about abandonment. Usually
this comes from having a history of inconsistent care. Sometimes
my parents were there for me, and sometimes they weren't.
I didn't really get my needs met all the time.
(20:34):
It was very inconsistent. I didn't know who to trust.
That kind of history means in your current relationships, it's
kind of hard to fully know is someone there for me?
Are you going to leave? Are you really there? And
what we know about the grief process is it for
folks with anxious attachment. They tend to have a lot
(20:54):
higher distress following grief, and they're much more likely to
experience as anger and preoccupation about the person who has died,
not in a way that is comforting, more in a
way that is chronically distressing. Another style of insecure attachment
is avoidant attachment. Usually this comes from a place of
(21:16):
having your vulnerability or your needs rejected in some way.
So it could be that your parents weren't really comfortable
with you showing emotion and we're kind of like, you
need to deal with that by yourself, don't be a
cry baby. Man up all those kinds of messages. And
in adulthood, what we see with avoidant folks is a
(21:37):
tendency to downplay with they're feeling. I'm fine, I'm over it.
You know you talked about how we never fully get
over lost. The s would be the folks who say, no,
I'm over it, it's not an issue. They also are
more likely to stay in denial longer because the numbness
that comes with denial is protecting them against the vulnerability
of their pain. The other trick key part about avoidance is,
(22:02):
you know, sometimes it can look like this person is
grieving great along the surface, all they're doing great, They're
already back at work, things must be going really well.
But there's a fragility to that, and once they become
under stress, a lot of the grief that has not
been acknowledged might come up. Those folks are also the
(22:22):
least likely to seek out social support, which turns out
to be really important for healthy grieving. That's absolutely incredible information,
and I love how it has been quantitated. I guess
is the world totally Yeah, quantified, quantified. This is why
I try not to use big words, but you know,
(22:45):
it really is interesting. And I've seen this with my
own mom, how different people grieve differently, And you know,
through other of my close connections who they themselves have
suffered a laws, how they have handed it, And you know,
I've kind of seen all types of those people, and
and in fact, in my support system, I've seen that
(23:08):
a bit. I had a friend, very good friend who
for years and years and years, he has been to
my parents house. You know, my mom had made him
food before, and you know, long term friend. And when
she passed away, obviously he knew and all that. But
when I went to send him the funeral information, he
was like, oh, I'm not coming to that. And I'm
(23:30):
like but and he was like, yeah, I don't do
stuff like that. You know, I don't do funerals and
all those people crying, I just don't do that. And
I'm you know, at first, I was insanely angry and hurt.
I wanted to be like, it's not about you, you know,
(23:50):
it's it's not what you need. I was hoping that
you would be there for me, just support, and I
just sided relatively quickly at that time that I didn't
have the space to handle that at that time because
I was, you know, totally consumed in everything going on.
(24:11):
But I eventually kind of thought that that sucks, not
just for me, but for him, because you know, if
you are unable to be there for somebody that's close
to you in a time where they're clearly hurting and
need your support. That's kind of you know, stunted psychologically
(24:31):
on your end, you know what I mean. And it's
just interesting to me. You know. I had one friend
and she's she's a great friend, and I didn't really
hear from her, and her and I again very close,
and we texted all the time, and then suddenly she
kind of stopped texting, and so I reached out to
her and I was like, you know, are you doing okay?
And she's like, yeah, I'm so sorry. I will do
(24:51):
anything that you need. She said, I just don't know
how to be there for you. And that was interesting
for me because basically what she was saying was tell
me what you need and I'll do it. But I
don't know what to do. So I'm just kind of
like over here in the corner. You know. She was like,
I don't want to like joke around like we normally do,
because I don't want to like hurt you or whatever.
(25:13):
And I'm like, just just be, you know, the way
we always are, you know, and if I don't feel
like laughing at that moment, I won't laugh. I mean,
you're not gonna hurt me. And then she was totally
there and available and you know, there for me. I
had this third example was a very one of my
(25:34):
closest friends, and I was there for him through parental loss,
and I mean very intimately. I was there, very intimately
for him. I was there, you know, soon after they
passed and all of that totally you know, didn't come
to my mom's funeral and I was like, where are
you And he's like, uh, oh, you know, I knew
(25:55):
that because during COVID the funeral they had to cap
a at like two hundred or something, and he was like, oh,
I knew that. You know, there's gonna be way more
than two hundreds. So I wanted, you know, you guys
to have a spot for somebody else. And I'm like,
we were gonna have you sit with the family and
just totally absent in any aspect relating to that, even
(26:15):
though it was quite the opposite for you know, when
it was the opposite situation. So my point is, and
then I had a you know, amazing in general, I
have a very amazing support system. I'm making it sound like,
you know, these three people represented everybody, but they absolutely didn't.
Well but those are the ones that absolutely, yeah, they
(26:37):
do and you don't know, or at least I did
not know how to handle that at that time. And
I still hold resentment, you know, in some ways to
a couple of them, and I'll have to work through that.
But is that something Do I just you know, have
a tendency to pick horribul friends of my life or
is that Is this representative of kind of what anybody
(26:59):
would go through with their circle. I think it's absolutely representative.
Part of it is cultural. We live in the Western world,
where there's a focus on individualism, we are not a
very communal culture. In communal cultures, if something good happens,
(27:21):
everybody comes together and celebrates with you, and if something
bad happens, everybody comes together and brings you food and
does the whole really supports you closely. In a lot
of Latino immigrant communities, that communalism is still there in
ways that four to five the community. It's there for
a lot of African American folks as well. Actually, marginalized
(27:43):
communities do this well because they have to. And we
can learn from the resilience of the communities who do
this well, who come together for each other However, within
any community, there are always individual differences. People are hugely
different one to the next. So even within our hyperindividualistic culture,
there are people who just they know it to do.
(28:04):
Some of this is modeled for us. How did we
see the generation above us deal with loss? If the
generation above us dealt with loss by not dealing with it,
by not showing up to the funeral, that's the model
we have. If even if I don't really feel comfortable
with people's grief, I'm a little bit just I don't
(28:27):
like seeing people cry, but I know from my own
experience that this is what you do when someone dies.
You show up, You bring them food. I have a
schema in mind. A schema is just like a roadmap. Okay,
when this happens, here's my roadmap for making sure I
show up in some small way. A lot of people
(28:48):
don't have that roadmap, and I don't think it's their fault,
but I do think it's our responsibility to create a
roadmap for loss, and we don't have one. And that's
in part because we're all going through losses on mass
scale right now. We need to have some way of
dealing with it in our social communities. Otherwise our social
communities are going to get free. I always like to
(29:09):
say to people, there's no one one right way to grieve,
as you said, but also there's no one right way
to show up for somebody. The important part is that
you show up. Typically, no one is going to remember
what you said to them. They're going to remember that
you were there and how you made them feel. Right,
(29:30):
your presence is powerful. So if you don't know what
to say to someone who just lost their special person,
just say I'm so sorry for your loss and just
sit with them. You don't have to say anything. Actually,
one of the things about loss is that it actually
is registered in our body, so in the wake of
(29:52):
even a breakup, but also the loss of a spouse
or prolonged separation from somebody. So for migrants who have
had to move away from their families and their homeland
and can't return safely, what you see is physiology. Your
physiological rhythms get out of rhythm, your sleep might be disrupted,
(30:15):
your levels of inflammation go way up, your immune function
goes way down. And one other thing we know from
attachment theory and research is that having the simple presence
of one other person you trust can help recalibrate all
of those things. This is called social regulation, and it
(30:36):
just means that somebody's presence with you in a situation
that's stressful and where your body and your brain are
kind of reacting in the way that's totally understandable. Just
that simple presence totally recalibrates and brings your breathing down.
You actually heal faster from wounds and injuries if there's
(30:57):
somebody with you by your hospital bed. I mean, it's
why old what just simple social presence does. There's a
great study by my friend and colleague Jim Cone where
he put people in an MRI scanner under threat of
electric shock, and he had them either do this alone,
holding the hand of a stranger or holding the hand
(31:19):
of their romantic partner. And when you're alone dealing with
pain essentially, which we're also dealing with pain when you
talk about loss. When you're alone dealing with pain, you're amygdala,
which is the part of your brain that's all about
fight flight freeze response, is just really active. If you're
(31:39):
holding the hand of a stranger, maybe you get a
little help. If you're holding the hand of your romantic partner,
your amygdala response goes way down. This is true for
kids holding the hand of their parents, and it's also
true if you don't feel comfortable holding the hand of
your buddy, that's okay. Just sitting next to them does
a whole lot. We heal faster from wounds and injuries
(32:04):
if there's somebody with you by your hospital bed. That
incredible fact is just one of the benefits of healthy attachments.
But what happens when the whirlwind dies down and those
daily check ins turn into monthly texts, but you're still
left grieving your loved one? Do you reach out to
others for support? Do you just try and make do
(32:26):
with what you do have? Doctor stern answers when we
return often at some point, naturally the rush of people
who are there for you fades away. It's only human nature,
(32:50):
and nobody's at fault. Everyone can't be expected to put
their life on hold while you grieve your loved one,
because that's going to be something that never ends. But
so many of us are still left with a devastating
loss and may not be in a place where they
feel comfortable reaching out for help, especially in those first
(33:10):
few months and years, In the first few days and weeks,
you have this twenty four seven support system, but then
suddenly it just feels like it's gone. Doctor Stearn says
that part of this is a result of it being
the societal norm in the United States, but all hope
isn't lost. There tends to be this idea that there's
(33:35):
a timeline for grief, which I really don't think is true.
But culturally, especially in the West, it's like the sooner
you get over it, the better. Not every culture is
like that. A lot of other cultures that have ancestor
worship as part of the culture, So in Japan and
(33:57):
other places, it's typical take a full year to really
honor the person who has died, and the cultural norms
are such that the social support is a little bit
more sustained than what we have in the West. But
the thing about cultural norms is that they can change.
(34:17):
And what I'm really hoping is a silver lining from
the pandemic is that we learn how to sustain the
level of support that people actually need in the wake
of loss, because we've all experienced it, and not only
are we experiencing, actually experiencing multiple major systemic losses right now,
(34:38):
huge loss of biodiversity, with the climate crisis, huge loss
of life. We just passed one million deaths with COVID nineteen,
huge loss with gun violence. It's now the top killer
of youth in the United States, over and above car
accidents and racism, I would say, is the last one
(34:59):
that's taken the lie of many African American children and parents.
I mean, the scale and the scope of these losses
is huge. We have to find a better way to
be there for each other in a sustained way. So
the good news about social norms is that they're flexible
and that each of us has the power to shift
them and what we do. This means that if you
(35:21):
know somebody who has gone through a loss, that you
and other friends of that person who you know you
can text all of them and say, hey, let's go
bring this guy food, right, or Hey, I'm just I'm
thinking about Kyle, and I think it would be great
if all of us may be planned to just get dinner,
(35:42):
something very simple. I mean, it doesn't have to be hey,
i'm worried about how you're doing with your grief, Like,
it doesn't have to be that. It can simply be hey,
I was thinking about you how about we go grab
dinner together, just like you would with a normal friendship.
Those very simple ways to reach out to a person,
(36:02):
and you can make that the norm within your little
social circle, and it does ripple out because people pay
forward the care they receive. Typically. The other thing is
sometimes the people who best understand the long timeline that
grief can take is other people who are grieving. So
(36:25):
sometimes people find it helpful to join grief support groups.
If your parent passed away from cancer, there are groups
of folks who are either just mourning the death of
a parent or mourning the death of anyone they loved
from cancer. There are certainly a lot of COVID support groups. Sadly,
(36:45):
there are groups of parents who have children who have
died of gun violence, and those parents are coming together
not just to grieve together, but also as part of
making meaning from the loss and advocating for some kind
of change in our society. So another part of grieving
in community and continuing to have those social supports is
(37:08):
doing something like what you're doing, which is making meaning
from what you've been through in the form of a
podcast that connects you to people. Meaning making is different
for everybody, but it typically involves community in some way,
and when you're thinking about organizing and doing something on
a larger scale, often it requires sustained involvement. So you're
(37:30):
just going to see those people more and more. I
just want to emphasize that when I say making meaning,
I don't mean that the loss was meaningful. A lot
of losses are meaningless, like this person shouldn't have died,
you know, they should still be here. I am saying
that meaning happens in what you do following the loss.
How do you make meaning of the person's contribution to
(37:54):
your life and what you've learned from the grieving process,
and how do you take the next step that has
some purpose in meaning to it. So that's what I
mean by that. I love that. What do you do
when you know other loved ones, for instance, of the
person who has passed are at different stages You know,
(38:19):
you may have this could be somebody's parent and that
parent is ready to date and blah blah blah, and
all the kids are like, well, wait, we're still grieving
or you know whatever that situation. How do you deal
with when you are at different places with the shared
grievers if you will? Yeah, So there's no one right
(38:42):
way to grieve. And if you're feeling like someone in
your family system is crazy, just remember that it's not
them that's crazy. It's the situation that's crazy, because losing
someone you love it's just a shitty situation. But it's
the situation is crazy, it's not the person. And unless
(39:03):
there are warning signs of this person is harming themselves
or others, So that would be things like suicide risk,
they're wanting to end their own life, or they want
to follow their loved one into the dying process, you know,
call the suicide helpline immediately. Second is if they're abusing
drugs or alcohol. And the third is if they are
(39:27):
so distressed that they can't function, shower, feed themselves, take
care of children. Those would be the three warning signs
that actually, this person needs some additional help, like emergency
intervention sort of thing. Correct. In the case of suicide,
you need to interview immediately. In the case of something
like drugs or alcohol, engage the situation, but probably support
(39:49):
of a therapist or professional would be good. Aside from
those things, there's no right or wrong way right there's
a lot of variation, and I just want to mention that,
you know, Elizabeth Kobler Ross gave us these wonderful stages
of grief, but they were actually descriptive of people who
(40:09):
were dying, not people who are grieving. Now that they've
been adopted for people who are grieving. But these are
not linear, and she herself acknowledged that as she was
in her own dying process. She said, we cycle through
all of these. Some of us never experienced any of them.
They're not meant to be proscriptive. They were simply described
(40:29):
what she saw in her research. So one thing to
remember is we're not all trying to race to acceptance
or meaning making, which was what David Kessler added as
a sixth stage. It's not a race and it's not
a competition. But within a family system, it can be
so frustrating when someone else is grieving differently from you.
(40:52):
I mean, take an example of one person who wants
to process all their grief verbally. They just want to
talk all the time about the person, about their memories,
and you have someone else in the family who just
wants to be in nature and go for a run
in the morning and be left alone. They're both processing
and healthy ways. Both of them, but to each other,
(41:14):
they're probably endlessly frustrating. The person who just wants to
be in nature and go for his run is probably like,
please stop talking to me. I just need quiet to
really feel my feelings. And this person over here just
wants to talk is saying you are totally unavailable to me.
How can you be so cruel to not speak about
this person? I think what's important is acceptance needs to
(41:38):
be not just about the loss, but about each other's process.
You can get to a place of this is this
person's unique way of dealing with this loss, and really
it's about being there for each other. Sometimes I need
to honor this person's need to talk about it and
I'll just listen. And then sometimes this person is going
(42:00):
to need to honor my need to be alone and
be in nature because that's what calms me down. That's
not easy, right, But I do think that knowing that
your grief process is not anybody else's grief process is
really important, and also knowing that these descriptions of what
(42:22):
grief looks like, from denial to anger, all of these stages,
it's not the way that we should grieve, right. The
important part, I think is to notice our own tendencies. Okay,
my tendency with grief is to shut down and not
talk to anybody, And I know this comes from maybe
an avoidant attachment history. I know that's my tendency. I'm
(42:45):
aware of it, and when I'm under stressed, that's what
I revert to, because when any of us are under stressed,
we revert to old patterns. But I'm aware that my
romantic partner maybe really needs me to be present. So
I'm noticing my tendency to shut down. What happens if
I'm just opening the door like one notch and saying, hey,
(43:08):
I'm having a hard day, that's huge, right, So if
you can shift your style to turn toward these other
people in your life are also grieving in their own way,
it makes a huge difference. You don't have to go
full one eighty and do what they're doing, but try
turning towards them a little bit and see if you
(43:28):
can accept their process is what they're doing. Yeah, that's
that's awesome. And thankfully I think that I'm an only child,
so you know, I haven't I've seen situations where people
are at different grieving processes with their brothers and sisters,
and it just sucks because you want to talk to
(43:50):
your brother or sister or whatever and say, you know,
I'm really feeling upset about mom or dad, and they're like, well,
get over it. It's been six months or you know,
and I'm at work, leave me alone, or you know,
And that's got to really be hard. But what you're
saying is if we can acknowledge each other's needs and
(44:11):
where we are in our process while kind of giving
an equilibrium to let me give you some of what
you need and then you kind of give me what
I need, we can kind of eliminate a lot of that. Yeah,
I think that's right. Everyone is on their own timeline.
(44:31):
You'll never stop grieving your loved one. They were a
huge part of your life after all. But it's incredibly
harmful and not at all supportive to tell someone they
should be over it. And that doesn't matter if it's
a month later, ten years later, seventy years later. Getting
over it is just not something that's going to happen.
(44:54):
It's dismissive, it's toxic, and it's wrong when we were
Doctor Stern discusses how people with different communication styles can
actually negotiate to give each other what they need to
support them on their grief journeys when we return. As
(45:21):
you move through your grief journey, some people may need
to set boundaries for their grief, not only with themselves
but with others. Allowing it to come all at once
whenever at once twenty four to seven can put them
in a position of not being able to function. And
while that's absolutely expected early on, as the years go on,
(45:43):
if it's still consuming you twenty four hours a day,
seven days a week, to the point that you can't function,
it is disrupting your life. That's not to say that
it's somehow unhealthy to break down over your loved one
or cry hysterically. None of those are wrong. It's simply
saying that it wouldn't be healthy to let it affect
(46:04):
you to the point where you're not able to function
day in and day out, where you're not able to
go to work, or go to school, or enjoy activities
of your own. Doctor Stern has some great suggestions on
how to keep that in check with yourself and especially
with other people. The other thing is to know other
(46:24):
people's communication styles, which you know before the loss. Some
folks really need boundaries around the times that they allow
themselves to grieve, because if they kind of let that
in when they're in the middle of their work day
or they're dropping their kids up at school in the morning,
(46:45):
it just disrupts the entire day. So for some people,
it's a matter of setting a boundary. Hey, I really
I really want to talk to you about Mom, but
I can't from nine to six. Those are my work hours,
and when I think about her during those times, I
can't get anything done. I can't focus. It's really hard
for me. That's also part of grief and in trying
(47:07):
to kind of rebuild your life that those boundaries are
important for you to maintain, and they're important to communicate
to the other members of your family system, right, Because
it could be that the answer is actually, yes, I
do want to talk about Mom, but no, you can't
call me at ten am at the office, right, And
so finding a middle ground of let's find a time
(47:31):
to talk that works for both of us. I actually
really want to do this with you, but let's both
agree on what's going to work with both of us. Right.
And Similarly, people are going to have varying needs over time,
so some of that's going to need to be recalibrated
as you go along. Having a conversation about boundaries right
now is great and then revisited a few months later
(47:54):
if you need to. It's interesting that you say that
because I remember specifically where I was working this gig,
you know, this project that I was working on, and
I could not allow myself to start thinking about it
during those hours because if I did, it would have
spiraled and I would not have been able to get
(48:15):
out of it. And then you know, I can't get
kicked off a project or whatever, or not get the
work done or whatever because I've been crying in the
bathroom for the last four hours or whatever. So it's
also I think important to know from what you've said
that it's okay to give yourself the space to do
it and give yourself the space to not do it,
(48:39):
and by do it, I mean allow to tackle grief
or whatever it is you're feeling at that time. Yeah,
I think it's important to name this phenomenon, so emotion suppression.
This is a skill that most of us have to
varying degrees. Folks are more avoidant in their attack hatchment
(49:00):
are great at suppressing emotion, but it tends to be
a little too much. Folks who are securely attached, you know,
we can do this too, but it's not our default mode.
Folks who are anxiously attached to have a really hard
time not just expressing their emotions all the time. That's,
of course a big generalization, but emotion suppression is useful
(49:21):
in the short term. It's a tool in our tool
belt for not falling apart when we're doing the things
we need to do, especially for parents who have lost
somebody and need to show up and be strong for
their kids so they don't pass on the trauma of
that loss. You need to be able to tamp down
sometimes and hold off on expressing fully what you're feeling,
(49:45):
but just make sure that you do make time to
feel and express what you're feeling, and that you have
somebody to lean on when you need to be taken
care of, rather than you being the careta right, So
emotion suppression really good in the short term. What we
know about emotion suppression in the long term, if you
(50:07):
never allow that intentional space to feel what you're feeling
around grief, it does tend to lead to health problems.
So inflammation again tends to go up, sleep tends to
be disrupted and your immune function is worse off. So
just remember, yes, it's a tool in your tool belt,
(50:27):
but use that emotion suppression when you need it, and
then make intentional time and space to process honestly and
to grapple with what you're feeling in a real way.
It could be in the evenings, it could be first
thing in the morning if you meditate or do yoga,
go for a run, but guard those times when you
sit down and feel what you need to. For some folks,
(50:49):
that means journaling, writing it down, sometimes just writing down
all the anger or whatever it is that you're grappling
with guilt. Writing it down gives it less power over you.
A lot of people are afraid that once they say
something out loud or write it down, or I'm feeling
responsible for this person's death, what if I had done X, Y,
(51:12):
and Z, all of these regrets you had about the relationship.
A lot of folks are afraid of saying or writing
those thoughts down because then it makes them real. The
opposite is actually true. You can start to release them
so they don't constantly fled your consciousness. By simply expressing them,
they have less power over you when you express them.
(51:34):
The last thing is just the real goal of healing
is not to get rid of your grief altogether, so
it's not to be able to go to work and
never think about this person again. The goal of grief
is to grieve with more love than pain. In David
Kessler's words, I really like that, grieve with more love
than pain. So there's that phrase grief comes in waves,
(51:55):
which is very true. And in the course of your day,
even if you've set aside at time and you're like, Okay,
I'm not going to think about this right now, there
might be an emotional trigger for you at the office.
Let's say you go into the fridge and maybe you
get yogurt and that was your parents' favorite flavor or whatever.
It might be something totally mundane and inconsequential, and suddenly
(52:20):
the grief comes up. And that's okay, that's going to happen.
There are these little triggers everywhere in your life that
will remind you of this person. But as time goes on,
just trust that those triggers will start to be more
bitter sweet than they are bitter. What is if you
(52:41):
could leave one thing with people relating to all of
the things we've talked about grief and attachment in general.
If they could only take away one thing from you,
what would that be? That grief reveals what we truly
love and value, so don't shy away from it, and
(53:02):
also don't be afraid to lean on people and to
ask for what you need when you're grieving. Chances are,
just like your friend, people might need to be asked
or told what to do because they're in shock or
they're going through their own stuff. But the biggest mistake
we make is to think we have to go through
(53:24):
grief alone, and we don't. The biggest mistake we make
is to think we have to go through grief alone.
An incredible insight from doctor Stern. Support systems are vital
to our very existence as humans. When you want to
(53:46):
ignore that phone call from your friend because you'll call
him next week, pick up the phone. Haven't heard from
your sister in a little while, caller. Not only is
time not ever guaranteed, and I guarantee you you'll regret
it when you don't have that time, but you will
literally be healthier both physically and mentally from those connections
(54:09):
that you have. Show up for yourself, so you can
show up for others and they'll show up for you.
Because support systems and healthy attachments are what get us
through life and death. On the next episode of Death, Grief,
(54:40):
and Other shit we don't discuss, I traveled to lily Dale,
New York, a quaint hamlet whose entire population is made
up of certified mediums and spiritualists, and it's said to
be a place for spiritual healing. I talk with a
few of the residents of lily Dale, including Reverend Angie apt,
a spiritual counsel and medium, to see if she could
(55:01):
give me some insight into the other side and if
I'm truly able to contact my mom. I'm going to
see my mother. She said she'd be me when I come.
(55:24):
I just googled overgoa. I'm just glooled. We're over I'm
into the school.
I'm just a book way fearing stranger traveling through this
world below. There's no seedness danger in that bride word
(00:31):
to which I go, Welcome to death, grief and other
shit we don't discuss. I'm Kyle McMahon. The rush of
the funeral was now over. Dad and I were back
in the car, headed to Aunt Cathy's for the funeral reception.
(00:53):
I always thought it was weird that you'd have a
sort of sad party after a funeral. Some call it
a you passed, Others call it a celebration of life.
I call it weird, hard sad. At least for me.
The last thing I feel like doing after burying a
(01:15):
loved one at a funeral is going and talking to
people about them while eating tiny sausages. For me, it's
just a strange tradition, and I guess I get the
point behind it. Funeral receptions are meant to allow loved
ones to connect over the deceased, to tell stories and
commemorate their life. It's just that for me, it's so
(01:38):
very sad, especially when it's my own mom. After the reception,
I went back home and got out of my dress
pants and suit and into some comfortable sweats and a
T shirt and laid in bed with blue to zone
out to bad reality TV shows. Immediately a text from Michelle,
(02:01):
who asked me if I wanted to come over, and
although I really didn't want to leave my bubble, I
figured I really should get out and do something, so
I headed over there. I'm really lucky to have her,
you see. Over the week or so that Mom had passed,
I had so many people that had been reaching out
to me. There were hundreds of texts and calls and
(02:24):
voicemails and messages. I couldn't muster the will to pick
up or to respond to most of them. And there
was no rhyme or reason to who I picked up
for or didn't, and it wasn't intentional. I was just
overwhelmed and numb and lost. I was just going through
the motions. At that point. I was still processing the
(02:47):
newness of this, and I certainly didn't want to keep
reliving it over and over and over telling people what
had happened and how I was feeling. I just couldn't
do it right then. I was surprised by a number
of people's reactions, though some surprised me in a good way,
while others surprised me in a different way. One friend,
(03:13):
who had gone to the funeral I hadn't really heard
from in the week prior. She eventually texted me to
apologize for not being there like she should have. She said,
I didn't know what to say, and I didn't want
to upset you. I responded that you didn't have to
say anything in particular, you could just start with HI.
(03:37):
Her and I were always texting each other funny memes
back and forth, so her absence over the last week
or so had definitely been noticed. She said, I feel
like you'd think it was insensitive to send you a
meme when your mom has just passed, And I said,
I totally get where you're coming from, but so you know,
for the next person, I probably would have appreciated that
(03:59):
moment of laughter. She apologized again and told me that
if I needed anything, she would be there, and in reality,
I knew that if I had reached out to her,
she would be there. So many of my friends were
my family, people that I work with. I'm very lucky
(04:21):
to have a great support system, and that's a good
thing to remind myself too. In order to be there
for my loved ones during times when they lose someone
that they love. Now that I have the experience of it,
on the other side, I know, at least for me,
that anyone could have texted or called or FaceTime like
they always have. And if I couldn't muster the energy
(04:44):
to pick up my phone at that moment, then I
just wouldn't. And again, it was nothing personal to them.
It could have been anybody. At that time. I had
friends that really really rose to the occasion. People were
dropping off food from myself, Elf and Dad. People were
taking us to dinner, inviting us over. Things like that
(05:05):
really helped. I mean, I didn't cook dinner on a
good day, so I certainly wasn't even thinking about food
during this time. My parents neighbors Wayning Diane, they had
invited us over for dinner. Brandon had taken me out
for dinner to talk if I wanted to talk or
we could just eat, he said. My friend Tamika had
(05:27):
dropped off a tray of food at my house. And
it's funny because at the time that she had texted me,
I just so happened to not pick up because I
was in one of those moments and she texted and
made me laugh. I don't care if you pick up
or not. My ass is coming over and seeing you,
And that made me laugh so much and know that
(05:47):
I really am loved. My friend Courtney had texted me
throughout the entire thing and just said I'm here for
you if you need me, and so did Jeff and
In and Luke. Even Mom's friends were dropping off food
for Dad and myself. I saw one friend the day
(06:10):
after the funeral by pure coincidence, a very very close
friend who I had been there for through his own
father's passing. In fact, i'd been there earlier that night
watching a movie. We knew his father's time was coming soon,
and eventually I wanted to give them some space to
say their goodbye, so I headed home. Within thirty minutes,
(06:33):
he had called me saying as Dad was gone. So
I got back in the car and went over there
just to be there for him and his family in
whatever way I could. He didn't want to talk, he
wasn't one of those people. He just wanted me there
and we ended up falling asleep on the floor watching
a movie. I was there for him in whatever capacity
he needed, and for him that meant just being physically present,
(06:55):
and so I was. And now I've run into him
the day after my mom's funeral, where he wasn't there,
and so I asked him, where were you for mom's funeral?
He had been to my parents' house a million times,
and my mom had done so much for him as
his mom had done for me. He nonchalantly replied, I
(07:18):
knew the church would be at capacity, so I figured
other people should be there before me. And while anger
and hurt fueled through my body, I could only reply
with we had saved you a seat with the family.
You would have known that, but I didn't hear from
you at all. I didn't have the energy to fight
(07:43):
with him about it. I didn't have the energy to
tell him how selfish that was, or how he could
have simply asked me or just texted me to let
me know he was thinking about me. Were asked if
I needed anything at all, such as his physical presence.
The fact of the matter, as I realized in that
moment that his own selfishness and lack of empathy was
(08:05):
his own very large dysfunction, and I was in no
position whatsoever to argue with that, not in that moment
to this day, that still hurts me. It seems there
were a few people very close to me that didn't
show up in the way that I expected them to
(08:27):
that I needed them to. Another good friend I had
texted the moment we got the funeral info to let
him know so he could make arrangements to be there,
and he responded, I'm not coming, Kyle. I don't do
funerals and crying. You know that I'll grieve in my
own way. I replied to him, but I need you
(08:48):
there for me. I didn't get a reply back. He's
another one that has been to my parents' house and
family events and have been a good friend for a
long time. But despite the ones who so deeply hurt
me in my worst moments, so many others surprised me. Jason,
(09:09):
which is no surprise, was there as a constant day
and night. If he hadn't heard from me for a
few hours, he'd text me to see how I was.
And that was whether he was at work or at
the gym, or at home with his wife and young
son JJ and newborn Braxton. He showed up over and
over and over again, and to this day he continues
(09:32):
to show up. In fact, so many of my close
friends were checking in on me, stopping by asking if
I needed anything, and of course my family as well.
I was leaning heavily on Dad and Kim and Aunt
Kathy and uncle Tom and TJ, and my aunt Kathleen
(09:52):
and Uncle Kevin and Aunt Michelle and my cousins. I
was leaning on everybody close to me, heavily and strangely,
as alone as I really really felt without Mom here,
I had a small army of people there for me
that were just the text away. A text from Militia
(10:14):
actually said this is a quote, you are never alone.
Those four words helped me more than she'll ever ever know.
Kat my programming director from my heart, said we will
get you through this. That's what she texted me. Her
strength helped me when I had none of my own.
(10:38):
My cousin TJ showed up just to see how I
was doing, and although I didn't even want to get
out of bed to open the door, I'm glad that
I did. Through my grief journey, I'm learning that some
people aren't the people you thought they were, and some
are more incredible than you could have ever imagined. People
(11:02):
were showing up for me in whatever way they could.
They were reminders that at some point I was going
to have to show up for myself too, because that's
certainly not something that I was doing at that moment.
This grief journey was going to be a hard, windy
road that never ends. I'll always be on that journey
(11:25):
of grieving my mom, but I've got a strong support
system that will help me through it. And that's not
something that just appeared. That's something that I've actively worked
on to show up for them too. Did you know
(11:47):
that when you have a secure attachment with your loved
one that has passed, there are actual physiological changes that
happen to your body, both through their death and again
whenever you're actively thinking about them. Doctor Jesse Stern is
a developmental psychologist at University of Virginia who studies attachments
(12:07):
and their effect on various stages of life. Attachments or
lack of them, have profound effects or not just our relationships,
but our entire lives when we return. Doctor Stern and
I explore how attachments to our loved ones that have
passed and our attachments to our support systems can help
(12:28):
or hurt our grieving process. Doctor Jesse Stern has dedicated
her life to examining attachments, parenting, social neuroscience, child social
(12:51):
emotional development, and relationships. Her deep study in these topics
have made her an expert in attachments, human relationships, and
support systems. I wanted to see just how important support
systems were in both life and death. But first we
had to start with the basics, Like what is attachment anyway?
(13:16):
Attachment is kind of the bond that you have with
another person. It's a specific type of relationship. It's one
where you lean on the other person for support when
you need it. So this is not just a casual
acquaintance or someone you like hanging out with that it's
the friend you call when you really need help. So
(13:36):
those kinds of attachments can be really different from one
person to the next because the quality of our relationships
is super different. So I'm interested in how the quality
of your relationship with somebody, Are they reliable, are they trustworthy?
How does that allow you to go out into the
world do the things you want to do, and also
pay forward that kindness to other people. So some of
(13:58):
my work shows that if you have a secure attachment,
let's say, to a parent when you're a teenager, you're
more likely to be able to show your close friends
empathy from the time you're sixteen all the way through
early adulthood, which is pretty cool. That is awesome. And
I know this is anecdotal, but I can testify to
that fact. You know, I had extremely secure relationship with
(14:22):
my mom and dad, and both of them were are
very loving type of people that you don't leave without
saying love you, you know, even if you're mad, and
that sort of thing. And I would say, I'm a
pretty empathetic person and with you know, all of my
friends and other relationships. So I think that's interesting because
(14:43):
I can kind of relate to that totally. Yeah, I
can see it in your own life. Well, you're very
lucky to have not one, but two secure relationships. And actually,
what we know is that those sources of security can
build on each other right as sources of resilience. So
if you have one parent with whom you actually you
don't have a great relationship, but you have a great
(15:03):
best friend who you can trust, it kind of compensates
for the difficult relationship you have at home. So I
often say to my students, like, who maybe aren't as
lucky as you to have these great parents You can't
choose your family, but you can choose your friends. So
try to choose the friends who make you feel most secure.
Same with romantic partners. If you can find a romantic
(15:26):
partner who makes you feel really settled in your body
and who you feel like you can lean on when
times are hard, those are really the good litmus tests
for a relationship going forward. Wow. So, knowing this background,
what do we see when it comes to grief? You know,
I lost my mom, who was the closest person to
(15:48):
me in the world. It's a pancratic cancer and oh,
I'm so sorry, thank you she was. I still sometimes
talk about her in the present, but I was so
close with her that what I'm learning is that it's
not something I'm ever going to get over. Through doing
this series, I'm learning that, you know, grief is not
(16:10):
something you get over it. You know, you don't move
on from that person. You just learn how to live
with their absence. Yeah, and grief may take different forms
throughout our lives going forward, but it's always going to
be there somehow, and it's it's kind of how we
(16:32):
handle it, you know. And so so that's why I'm
you know, doing the show is just exploring all of
all of these things. What have you seen with various
attachments relating to someone that you love that's passing or
you know is going to pass. Yeah, it's such a
good question. The first thing to know is that we
(16:56):
grieve because we love, so grief and attachment are in
extreably intertwined. We lose many things over the course of
our lives, just the nature of impermanence. Right. We lose
our keys, we lose a water bottle on the subway.
But you know, if I had a set of keys
that belonged to my grandmother with whom I was very
close and I lost that set of keys, suddenly I
(17:18):
grieve for lost keys. And why is that? Because we
start to associate objects or places or activities with the
people we love. And that's actually one of the amazing
things about the human mind is that we can represent
the people who were close to in our minds so
(17:39):
that they can be present and alive in memory even
when they're not physically present or no longer alive. So
it yes, this is my mom's ring. Yeah, I think
that's really beautiful. And in fact, with the data shows
is that if you're aware that the person has passed
on and you're you're not in denial about that fact,
(18:01):
but you're keeping them alive psychologically, and you keep them
with you here in your heart. That's actually associated with
pretty positive outcomes. These are called continuing bonds, and it's
the idea that just because the person close to you
has died, the relationship doesn't end. You're still connected to
that person and also calling to mind the positive aspects
(18:24):
of the relationship can be a source of security and
comfort even during the grieving process. So it might not
feel good necessarily to think about your mom when the
grief is fresh, but with some time and space, her
memory will be a source of security for you. This
is actually something we do in our research quite a bit.
(18:47):
Is called security priming, and regardless of whether you have
a secure attachment or not in your daily life, you
can increase your felt sense of security or your sense
of state of call home, and you can lower your
heart rate and your blood pressure by doing this. If
I ask you to close your eyes and think of
(19:07):
the person you can most depend on to be there
for you in times of trouble, and just picture their
face and imagine being with them. Typically people's breathing slows down.
They have a sense of calm Physiologically, they sometimes say
I feel warm. Other folks say they feel happy, But
this cluster of words is always the same. I do
(19:28):
this in all my classes. All the students say the
same thing about the feelings that it conjures up. And
what's interesting about this is just that felt sense can
get you a lot of the benefits of actually being
a securely attached person. So if you're insecure with your relationships,
you can try practicing this yourself, just with one person
who you can trust. You're more likely to be empathic
(19:50):
to someone. You're more likely to hold more positive views
of outgroup members or people different from you. You can
regulate your emotions a little bit better. You get all
these benefits from it. So why not. But let's talk
a little bit about how you know if you don't
have that security, what that means for grief. One thing
(20:12):
we know is that for folks who have an anxious
attachment style, this would be somebody who worries a lot
about their relationships and especially is worried about abandonment. Usually
this comes from having a history of inconsistent care. Sometimes
my parents were there for me, and sometimes they weren't.
I didn't really get my needs met all the time.
(20:34):
It was very inconsistent. I didn't know who to trust.
That kind of history means in your current relationships, it's
kind of hard to fully know is someone there for me?
Are you going to leave? Are you really there? And
what we know about the grief process is it for
folks with anxious attachment. They tend to have a lot
(20:54):
higher distress following grief, and they're much more likely to
experience as anger and preoccupation about the person who has died,
not in a way that is comforting, more in a
way that is chronically distressing. Another style of insecure attachment
is avoidant attachment. Usually this comes from a place of
(21:16):
having your vulnerability or your needs rejected in some way.
So it could be that your parents weren't really comfortable
with you showing emotion and we're kind of like, you
need to deal with that by yourself, don't be a
cry baby. Man up all those kinds of messages. And
in adulthood, what we see with avoidant folks is a
(21:37):
tendency to downplay with they're feeling. I'm fine, I'm over it.
You know you talked about how we never fully get
over lost. The s would be the folks who say, no,
I'm over it, it's not an issue. They also are
more likely to stay in denial longer because the numbness
that comes with denial is protecting them against the vulnerability
of their pain. The other trick key part about avoidance is,
(22:02):
you know, sometimes it can look like this person is
grieving great along the surface, all they're doing great, They're
already back at work, things must be going really well.
But there's a fragility to that, and once they become
under stress, a lot of the grief that has not
been acknowledged might come up. Those folks are also the
(22:22):
least likely to seek out social support, which turns out
to be really important for healthy grieving. That's absolutely incredible information,
and I love how it has been quantitated. I guess
is the world totally Yeah, quantified, quantified. This is why
I try not to use big words, but you know,
(22:45):
it really is interesting. And I've seen this with my
own mom, how different people grieve differently, And you know,
through other of my close connections who they themselves have
suffered a laws, how they have handed it, And you know,
I've kind of seen all types of those people, and
and in fact, in my support system, I've seen that
(23:08):
a bit. I had a friend, very good friend who
for years and years and years, he has been to
my parents house. You know, my mom had made him
food before, and you know, long term friend. And when
she passed away, obviously he knew and all that. But
when I went to send him the funeral information, he
was like, oh, I'm not coming to that. And I'm
(23:30):
like but and he was like, yeah, I don't do
stuff like that. You know, I don't do funerals and
all those people crying, I just don't do that. And
I'm you know, at first, I was insanely angry and hurt.
I wanted to be like, it's not about you, you know,
(23:50):
it's it's not what you need. I was hoping that
you would be there for me, just support, and I
just sided relatively quickly at that time that I didn't
have the space to handle that at that time because
I was, you know, totally consumed in everything going on.
(24:11):
But I eventually kind of thought that that sucks, not
just for me, but for him, because you know, if
you are unable to be there for somebody that's close
to you in a time where they're clearly hurting and
need your support. That's kind of you know, stunted psychologically
(24:31):
on your end, you know what I mean. And it's
just interesting to me. You know. I had one friend
and she's she's a great friend, and I didn't really
hear from her, and her and I again very close,
and we texted all the time, and then suddenly she
kind of stopped texting, and so I reached out to
her and I was like, you know, are you doing okay?
And she's like, yeah, I'm so sorry. I will do
(24:51):
anything that you need. She said, I just don't know
how to be there for you. And that was interesting
for me because basically what she was saying was tell
me what you need and I'll do it. But I
don't know what to do. So I'm just kind of
like over here in the corner. You know. She was like,
I don't want to like joke around like we normally do,
because I don't want to like hurt you or whatever.
(25:13):
And I'm like, just just be, you know, the way
we always are, you know, and if I don't feel
like laughing at that moment, I won't laugh. I mean,
you're not gonna hurt me. And then she was totally
there and available and you know, there for me. I
had this third example was a very one of my
(25:34):
closest friends, and I was there for him through parental loss,
and I mean very intimately. I was there, very intimately
for him. I was there, you know, soon after they
passed and all of that totally you know, didn't come
to my mom's funeral and I was like, where are
you And he's like, uh, oh, you know, I knew
(25:55):
that because during COVID the funeral they had to cap
a at like two hundred or something, and he was like, oh,
I knew that. You know, there's gonna be way more
than two hundreds. So I wanted, you know, you guys
to have a spot for somebody else. And I'm like,
we were gonna have you sit with the family and
just totally absent in any aspect relating to that, even
(26:15):
though it was quite the opposite for you know, when
it was the opposite situation. So my point is, and
then I had a you know, amazing in general, I
have a very amazing support system. I'm making it sound like,
you know, these three people represented everybody, but they absolutely didn't.
Well but those are the ones that absolutely, yeah, they
(26:37):
do and you don't know, or at least I did
not know how to handle that at that time. And
I still hold resentment, you know, in some ways to
a couple of them, and I'll have to work through that.
But is that something Do I just you know, have
a tendency to pick horribul friends of my life or
is that Is this representative of kind of what anybody
(26:59):
would go through with their circle. I think it's absolutely representative.
Part of it is cultural. We live in the Western world,
where there's a focus on individualism, we are not a
very communal culture. In communal cultures, if something good happens,
(27:21):
everybody comes together and celebrates with you, and if something
bad happens, everybody comes together and brings you food and
does the whole really supports you closely. In a lot
of Latino immigrant communities, that communalism is still there in
ways that four to five the community. It's there for
a lot of African American folks as well. Actually, marginalized
(27:43):
communities do this well because they have to. And we
can learn from the resilience of the communities who do
this well, who come together for each other However, within
any community, there are always individual differences. People are hugely
different one to the next. So even within our hyperindividualistic culture,
there are people who just they know it to do.
(28:04):
Some of this is modeled for us. How did we
see the generation above us deal with loss? If the
generation above us dealt with loss by not dealing with it,
by not showing up to the funeral, that's the model
we have. If even if I don't really feel comfortable
with people's grief, I'm a little bit just I don't
(28:27):
like seeing people cry, but I know from my own
experience that this is what you do when someone dies.
You show up, You bring them food. I have a
schema in mind. A schema is just like a roadmap. Okay,
when this happens, here's my roadmap for making sure I
show up in some small way. A lot of people
(28:48):
don't have that roadmap, and I don't think it's their fault,
but I do think it's our responsibility to create a
roadmap for loss, and we don't have one. And that's
in part because we're all going through losses on mass
scale right now. We need to have some way of
dealing with it in our social communities. Otherwise our social
communities are going to get free. I always like to
(29:09):
say to people, there's no one one right way to grieve,
as you said, but also there's no one right way
to show up for somebody. The important part is that
you show up. Typically, no one is going to remember
what you said to them. They're going to remember that
you were there and how you made them feel. Right,
(29:30):
your presence is powerful. So if you don't know what
to say to someone who just lost their special person,
just say I'm so sorry for your loss and just
sit with them. You don't have to say anything. Actually,
one of the things about loss is that it actually
is registered in our body, so in the wake of
(29:52):
even a breakup, but also the loss of a spouse
or prolonged separation from somebody. So for migrants who have
had to move away from their families and their homeland
and can't return safely, what you see is physiology. Your
physiological rhythms get out of rhythm, your sleep might be disrupted,
(30:15):
your levels of inflammation go way up, your immune function
goes way down. And one other thing we know from
attachment theory and research is that having the simple presence
of one other person you trust can help recalibrate all
of those things. This is called social regulation, and it
(30:36):
just means that somebody's presence with you in a situation
that's stressful and where your body and your brain are
kind of reacting in the way that's totally understandable. Just
that simple presence totally recalibrates and brings your breathing down.
You actually heal faster from wounds and injuries if there's
(30:57):
somebody with you by your hospital bed. I mean, it's
why old what just simple social presence does. There's a
great study by my friend and colleague Jim Cone where
he put people in an MRI scanner under threat of
electric shock, and he had them either do this alone,
holding the hand of a stranger or holding the hand
(31:19):
of their romantic partner. And when you're alone dealing with
pain essentially, which we're also dealing with pain when you
talk about loss. When you're alone dealing with pain, you're amygdala,
which is the part of your brain that's all about
fight flight freeze response, is just really active. If you're
(31:39):
holding the hand of a stranger, maybe you get a
little help. If you're holding the hand of your romantic partner,
your amygdala response goes way down. This is true for
kids holding the hand of their parents, and it's also
true if you don't feel comfortable holding the hand of
your buddy, that's okay. Just sitting next to them does
a whole lot. We heal faster from wounds and injuries
(32:04):
if there's somebody with you by your hospital bed. That
incredible fact is just one of the benefits of healthy attachments.
But what happens when the whirlwind dies down and those
daily check ins turn into monthly texts, but you're still
left grieving your loved one? Do you reach out to
others for support? Do you just try and make do
(32:26):
with what you do have? Doctor stern answers when we
return often at some point, naturally the rush of people
who are there for you fades away. It's only human nature,
(32:50):
and nobody's at fault. Everyone can't be expected to put
their life on hold while you grieve your loved one,
because that's going to be something that never ends. But
so many of us are still left with a devastating
loss and may not be in a place where they
feel comfortable reaching out for help, especially in those first
(33:10):
few months and years, In the first few days and weeks,
you have this twenty four seven support system, but then
suddenly it just feels like it's gone. Doctor Stearn says
that part of this is a result of it being
the societal norm in the United States, but all hope
isn't lost. There tends to be this idea that there's
(33:35):
a timeline for grief, which I really don't think is true.
But culturally, especially in the West, it's like the sooner
you get over it, the better. Not every culture is
like that. A lot of other cultures that have ancestor
worship as part of the culture, So in Japan and
(33:57):
other places, it's typical take a full year to really
honor the person who has died, and the cultural norms
are such that the social support is a little bit
more sustained than what we have in the West. But
the thing about cultural norms is that they can change.
(34:17):
And what I'm really hoping is a silver lining from
the pandemic is that we learn how to sustain the
level of support that people actually need in the wake
of loss, because we've all experienced it, and not only
are we experiencing, actually experiencing multiple major systemic losses right now,
(34:38):
huge loss of biodiversity, with the climate crisis, huge loss
of life. We just passed one million deaths with COVID nineteen,
huge loss with gun violence. It's now the top killer
of youth in the United States, over and above car
accidents and racism, I would say, is the last one
(34:59):
that's taken the lie of many African American children and parents.
I mean, the scale and the scope of these losses
is huge. We have to find a better way to
be there for each other in a sustained way. So
the good news about social norms is that they're flexible
and that each of us has the power to shift
them and what we do. This means that if you
(35:21):
know somebody who has gone through a loss, that you
and other friends of that person who you know you
can text all of them and say, hey, let's go
bring this guy food, right, or Hey, I'm just I'm
thinking about Kyle, and I think it would be great
if all of us may be planned to just get dinner,
(35:42):
something very simple. I mean, it doesn't have to be hey,
i'm worried about how you're doing with your grief, Like,
it doesn't have to be that. It can simply be hey,
I was thinking about you how about we go grab
dinner together, just like you would with a normal friendship.
Those very simple ways to reach out to a person,
(36:02):
and you can make that the norm within your little
social circle, and it does ripple out because people pay
forward the care they receive. Typically. The other thing is
sometimes the people who best understand the long timeline that
grief can take is other people who are grieving. So
(36:25):
sometimes people find it helpful to join grief support groups.
If your parent passed away from cancer, there are groups
of folks who are either just mourning the death of
a parent or mourning the death of anyone they loved
from cancer. There are certainly a lot of COVID support groups. Sadly,
(36:45):
there are groups of parents who have children who have
died of gun violence, and those parents are coming together
not just to grieve together, but also as part of
making meaning from the loss and advocating for some kind
of change in our society. So another part of grieving
in community and continuing to have those social supports is
(37:08):
doing something like what you're doing, which is making meaning
from what you've been through in the form of a
podcast that connects you to people. Meaning making is different
for everybody, but it typically involves community in some way,
and when you're thinking about organizing and doing something on
a larger scale, often it requires sustained involvement. So you're
(37:30):
just going to see those people more and more. I
just want to emphasize that when I say making meaning,
I don't mean that the loss was meaningful. A lot
of losses are meaningless, like this person shouldn't have died,
you know, they should still be here. I am saying
that meaning happens in what you do following the loss.
How do you make meaning of the person's contribution to
(37:54):
your life and what you've learned from the grieving process,
and how do you take the next step that has
some purpose in meaning to it. So that's what I
mean by that. I love that. What do you do
when you know other loved ones, for instance, of the
person who has passed are at different stages You know,
(38:19):
you may have this could be somebody's parent and that
parent is ready to date and blah blah blah, and
all the kids are like, well, wait, we're still grieving
or you know whatever that situation. How do you deal
with when you are at different places with the shared
grievers if you will? Yeah, So there's no one right
(38:42):
way to grieve. And if you're feeling like someone in
your family system is crazy, just remember that it's not
them that's crazy. It's the situation that's crazy, because losing
someone you love it's just a shitty situation. But it's
the situation is crazy, it's not the person. And unless
(39:03):
there are warning signs of this person is harming themselves
or others, So that would be things like suicide risk,
they're wanting to end their own life, or they want
to follow their loved one into the dying process, you know,
call the suicide helpline immediately. Second is if they're abusing
drugs or alcohol. And the third is if they are
(39:27):
so distressed that they can't function, shower, feed themselves, take
care of children. Those would be the three warning signs
that actually, this person needs some additional help, like emergency
intervention sort of thing. Correct. In the case of suicide,
you need to interview immediately. In the case of something
like drugs or alcohol, engage the situation, but probably support
(39:49):
of a therapist or professional would be good. Aside from
those things, there's no right or wrong way right there's
a lot of variation, and I just want to mention that,
you know, Elizabeth Kobler Ross gave us these wonderful stages
of grief, but they were actually descriptive of people who
(40:09):
were dying, not people who are grieving. Now that they've
been adopted for people who are grieving. But these are
not linear, and she herself acknowledged that as she was
in her own dying process. She said, we cycle through
all of these. Some of us never experienced any of them.
They're not meant to be proscriptive. They were simply described
(40:29):
what she saw in her research. So one thing to
remember is we're not all trying to race to acceptance
or meaning making, which was what David Kessler added as
a sixth stage. It's not a race and it's not
a competition. But within a family system, it can be
so frustrating when someone else is grieving differently from you.
(40:52):
I mean, take an example of one person who wants
to process all their grief verbally. They just want to
talk all the time about the person, about their memories,
and you have someone else in the family who just
wants to be in nature and go for a run
in the morning and be left alone. They're both processing
and healthy ways. Both of them, but to each other,
(41:14):
they're probably endlessly frustrating. The person who just wants to
be in nature and go for his run is probably like,
please stop talking to me. I just need quiet to
really feel my feelings. And this person over here just
wants to talk is saying you are totally unavailable to me.
How can you be so cruel to not speak about
this person? I think what's important is acceptance needs to
(41:38):
be not just about the loss, but about each other's process.
You can get to a place of this is this
person's unique way of dealing with this loss, and really
it's about being there for each other. Sometimes I need
to honor this person's need to talk about it and
I'll just listen. And then sometimes this person is going
(42:00):
to need to honor my need to be alone and
be in nature because that's what calms me down. That's
not easy, right, But I do think that knowing that
your grief process is not anybody else's grief process is
really important, and also knowing that these descriptions of what
(42:22):
grief looks like, from denial to anger, all of these stages,
it's not the way that we should grieve, right. The
important part, I think is to notice our own tendencies. Okay,
my tendency with grief is to shut down and not
talk to anybody, And I know this comes from maybe
an avoidant attachment history. I know that's my tendency. I'm
(42:45):
aware of it, and when I'm under stressed, that's what
I revert to, because when any of us are under stressed,
we revert to old patterns. But I'm aware that my
romantic partner maybe really needs me to be present. So
I'm noticing my tendency to shut down. What happens if
I'm just opening the door like one notch and saying, hey,
(43:08):
I'm having a hard day, that's huge, right, So if
you can shift your style to turn toward these other
people in your life are also grieving in their own way,
it makes a huge difference. You don't have to go
full one eighty and do what they're doing, but try
turning towards them a little bit and see if you
(43:28):
can accept their process is what they're doing. Yeah, that's
that's awesome. And thankfully I think that I'm an only child,
so you know, I haven't I've seen situations where people
are at different grieving processes with their brothers and sisters,
and it just sucks because you want to talk to
(43:50):
your brother or sister or whatever and say, you know,
I'm really feeling upset about mom or dad, and they're like, well,
get over it. It's been six months or you know,
and I'm at work, leave me alone, or you know,
And that's got to really be hard. But what you're
saying is if we can acknowledge each other's needs and
(44:11):
where we are in our process while kind of giving
an equilibrium to let me give you some of what
you need and then you kind of give me what
I need, we can kind of eliminate a lot of that. Yeah,
I think that's right. Everyone is on their own timeline.
(44:31):
You'll never stop grieving your loved one. They were a
huge part of your life after all. But it's incredibly
harmful and not at all supportive to tell someone they
should be over it. And that doesn't matter if it's
a month later, ten years later, seventy years later. Getting
over it is just not something that's going to happen.
(44:54):
It's dismissive, it's toxic, and it's wrong when we were
Doctor Stern discusses how people with different communication styles can
actually negotiate to give each other what they need to
support them on their grief journeys when we return. As
(45:21):
you move through your grief journey, some people may need
to set boundaries for their grief, not only with themselves
but with others. Allowing it to come all at once
whenever at once twenty four to seven can put them
in a position of not being able to function. And
while that's absolutely expected early on, as the years go on,
(45:43):
if it's still consuming you twenty four hours a day,
seven days a week, to the point that you can't function,
it is disrupting your life. That's not to say that
it's somehow unhealthy to break down over your loved one
or cry hysterically. None of those are wrong. It's simply
saying that it wouldn't be healthy to let it affect
(46:04):
you to the point where you're not able to function
day in and day out, where you're not able to
go to work, or go to school, or enjoy activities
of your own. Doctor Stern has some great suggestions on
how to keep that in check with yourself and especially
with other people. The other thing is to know other
(46:24):
people's communication styles, which you know before the loss. Some
folks really need boundaries around the times that they allow
themselves to grieve, because if they kind of let that
in when they're in the middle of their work day
or they're dropping their kids up at school in the morning,
(46:45):
it just disrupts the entire day. So for some people,
it's a matter of setting a boundary. Hey, I really
I really want to talk to you about Mom, but
I can't from nine to six. Those are my work hours,
and when I think about her during those times, I
can't get anything done. I can't focus. It's really hard
for me. That's also part of grief and in trying
(47:07):
to kind of rebuild your life that those boundaries are
important for you to maintain, and they're important to communicate
to the other members of your family system, right, Because
it could be that the answer is actually, yes, I
do want to talk about Mom, but no, you can't
call me at ten am at the office, right, And
so finding a middle ground of let's find a time
(47:31):
to talk that works for both of us. I actually
really want to do this with you, but let's both
agree on what's going to work with both of us. Right.
And Similarly, people are going to have varying needs over time,
so some of that's going to need to be recalibrated
as you go along. Having a conversation about boundaries right
now is great and then revisited a few months later
(47:54):
if you need to. It's interesting that you say that
because I remember specifically where I was working this gig,
you know, this project that I was working on, and
I could not allow myself to start thinking about it
during those hours because if I did, it would have
spiraled and I would not have been able to get
(48:15):
out of it. And then you know, I can't get
kicked off a project or whatever, or not get the
work done or whatever because I've been crying in the
bathroom for the last four hours or whatever. So it's
also I think important to know from what you've said
that it's okay to give yourself the space to do
it and give yourself the space to not do it,
(48:39):
and by do it, I mean allow to tackle grief
or whatever it is you're feeling at that time. Yeah,
I think it's important to name this phenomenon, so emotion suppression.
This is a skill that most of us have to
varying degrees. Folks are more avoidant in their attack hatchment
(49:00):
are great at suppressing emotion, but it tends to be
a little too much. Folks who are securely attached, you know,
we can do this too, but it's not our default mode.
Folks who are anxiously attached to have a really hard
time not just expressing their emotions all the time. That's,
of course a big generalization, but emotion suppression is useful
(49:21):
in the short term. It's a tool in our tool
belt for not falling apart when we're doing the things
we need to do, especially for parents who have lost
somebody and need to show up and be strong for
their kids so they don't pass on the trauma of
that loss. You need to be able to tamp down
sometimes and hold off on expressing fully what you're feeling,
(49:45):
but just make sure that you do make time to
feel and express what you're feeling, and that you have
somebody to lean on when you need to be taken
care of, rather than you being the careta right, So
emotion suppression really good in the short term. What we
know about emotion suppression in the long term, if you
(50:07):
never allow that intentional space to feel what you're feeling
around grief, it does tend to lead to health problems.
So inflammation again tends to go up, sleep tends to
be disrupted and your immune function is worse off. So
just remember, yes, it's a tool in your tool belt,
(50:27):
but use that emotion suppression when you need it, and
then make intentional time and space to process honestly and
to grapple with what you're feeling in a real way.
It could be in the evenings, it could be first
thing in the morning if you meditate or do yoga,
go for a run, but guard those times when you
sit down and feel what you need to. For some folks,
(50:49):
that means journaling, writing it down, sometimes just writing down
all the anger or whatever it is that you're grappling
with guilt. Writing it down gives it less power over you.
A lot of people are afraid that once they say
something out loud or write it down, or I'm feeling
responsible for this person's death, what if I had done X, Y,
(51:12):
and Z, all of these regrets you had about the relationship.
A lot of folks are afraid of saying or writing
those thoughts down because then it makes them real. The
opposite is actually true. You can start to release them
so they don't constantly fled your consciousness. By simply expressing them,
they have less power over you when you express them.
(51:34):
The last thing is just the real goal of healing
is not to get rid of your grief altogether, so
it's not to be able to go to work and
never think about this person again. The goal of grief
is to grieve with more love than pain. In David
Kessler's words, I really like that, grieve with more love
than pain. So there's that phrase grief comes in waves,
(51:55):
which is very true. And in the course of your day,
even if you've set aside at time and you're like, Okay,
I'm not going to think about this right now, there
might be an emotional trigger for you at the office.
Let's say you go into the fridge and maybe you
get yogurt and that was your parents' favorite flavor or whatever.
It might be something totally mundane and inconsequential, and suddenly
(52:20):
the grief comes up. And that's okay, that's going to happen.
There are these little triggers everywhere in your life that
will remind you of this person. But as time goes on,
just trust that those triggers will start to be more
bitter sweet than they are bitter. What is if you
(52:41):
could leave one thing with people relating to all of
the things we've talked about grief and attachment in general.
If they could only take away one thing from you,
what would that be? That grief reveals what we truly
love and value, so don't shy away from it, and
(53:02):
also don't be afraid to lean on people and to
ask for what you need when you're grieving. Chances are,
just like your friend, people might need to be asked
or told what to do because they're in shock or
they're going through their own stuff. But the biggest mistake
we make is to think we have to go through
(53:24):
grief alone, and we don't. The biggest mistake we make
is to think we have to go through grief alone.
An incredible insight from doctor Stern. Support systems are vital
to our very existence as humans. When you want to
(53:46):
ignore that phone call from your friend because you'll call
him next week, pick up the phone. Haven't heard from
your sister in a little while, caller. Not only is
time not ever guaranteed, and I guarantee you you'll regret
it when you don't have that time, but you will
literally be healthier both physically and mentally from those connections
(54:09):
that you have. Show up for yourself, so you can
show up for others and they'll show up for you.
Because support systems and healthy attachments are what get us
through life and death. On the next episode of Death, Grief,
(54:40):
and Other shit we don't discuss, I traveled to lily Dale,
New York, a quaint hamlet whose entire population is made
up of certified mediums and spiritualists, and it's said to
be a place for spiritual healing. I talk with a
few of the residents of lily Dale, including Reverend Angie apt,
a spiritual counsel and medium, to see if she could
(55:01):
give me some insight into the other side and if
I'm truly able to contact my mom. I'm going to
see my mother. She said she'd be me when I come.
(55:24):
I just googled overgoa. I'm just glooled. We're over I'm
into the school.
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