Balancing Strategy and Soul with Alexys Feaster

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:27):
Take a deep breath in through your nose. Holds it.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Now, release slowly again, deep in, helle hold release, repeating

(01:02):
internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I
am deeply well. I am deeply well. I am deeply

(01:30):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.

(01:52):
This is where we heal, this is where we transcend.
Welcome back to the show week after week. Thank you
for joining me. I'm so grateful. This is deeply Well.
I am Debbie Brown and we are going to have
such an amazing episode today. Today's guest is a woman
whose life and work embody purpose, vision and transformation, a

(02:14):
reminder that when leadership is rooted in care and consciousness,
it creates a lasting impact. She moves through the worlds
of sport, culture and community with grace, helping others expand
their vision while staying deeply rooted in their values. I
am so excited to welcome to today's show my friend

(02:34):
Alexis Feaster. She is a visionary leader who embodies the
balance of strategy and soul. Alexis Feaster is a visionary
strategist and the founder of the Kinship Advisors, where she
helps athletes, cultural leaders and organizations expand beyond their platforms,
aligning values with leadership, legacy.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
And service.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Before launching her company, she spent six years as an
executive with the NBA, earning the nickname the NBA's Other
Coach for her work guiding over four hundred and fifty
players off the court in personal growth and purpose driven leadership.
Her influence extends far beyond sports, from leading engagement strategies

(03:18):
for President Obama's reelection to producing women led podcasts like
Netlife with Don Staley and Tea with Asia Wilson and
Nefisa Collier.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Alexis has shared the.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Stage with Deepak Chopra, inspiring audiences around the world on
the power of consciousness, wellness, and impact. Her work has
earned honors, including the Espie Muhammad Ali Sports Humanitarian Award,
recognition from Forbes The Culture, and being named by Adweek
and Slam Magazine as one of the most Powerful Women

(03:50):
in Sports. In twenty twenty five, her first film, Hoops,
Hopes and Dreams, premiered at the Sundance Film Festival and
won the Cleveland Internet National Film Festival Award for Best
Doc Short. The film was acquired by Andscape, the black
led media platform owned by the Walt Disney Company in
July twenty twenty five. Fista recently joined Visibility Media as

(04:14):
a partner alongside Glenn Kano, Jesse Williams and TOA Dunn,
where she continues to lead values driven storytelling to inspire
action and change across film, gaming, and culture. Through every
chapter of her career, Alexis has shown what it means
to lead with integrity.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Compassion, and intention, bridging.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
The worlds of sports, culture and spirit. Welcome to this show.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Thank you so much. I cannot be more excited to
be here with you and having this conversation.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Oh my goshes girl, I don't even know where to begin.
We have known each other a very long time.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yes, I know. I'm like, wait year, what decade was
that right?

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Oh my god?

Speaker 3 (04:58):
It was the late aughts.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, we have known each other a
long time. I think through so many evolutions and iterations
and pathways. Absolutely, it's so amazing. I mean, okay, so
this is a lot, girl, A big life.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
It's a big life, and to your point, so many
I feel like we met in music and then from
music and then went onto politics, and I followed your
journey for all the years. And I'll tell you, Debbie,
like when people talk about like where do you aspire
to be? When you see someone who's been in entertainment
and able to make a transition where you're living in
your full purpose and living such a full, beautiful life,

(05:39):
you were literally the first person I think of, and
so I wanted to share that. So being able to
share space with you today means so much to me.
So thank you.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
That means so so much to me. Alexis that means
so much to me.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
It is you know, it's just like it's been I
think so incredibly cool to kind of both of us
kind of be parallels, you know, and just be able
to kind of sometimes look across the nation, you know,
in different states or different places, and just just see
how the work evolves in you, you know, like see

(06:12):
how God uses you and can really maximize your impact
and your unique gifts and abilities and such a multitude
of industries with such a multitude of people, you know,
and I think that's such a rare trait to have.
It's a rare call to be called to, but it
is a call. And I think, you know, and I

(06:35):
know everyone wants to do everything, and when you know,
we see people that inspire us, it's like, well why, you.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Know, can I do that?

Speaker 2 (06:41):
But some things are really unique, and I think sometimes
being able to move through through multiple worlds it is
a thing that only a handful of people are called
to do in that way because it just it not
better or less than it just takes different things and
different yeah, a different purpose. So it's been really amazing

(07:04):
and I had a chance with you. I went to
the premiere of the movie in La.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yes, and it's just amazing. Thank you so much. I mean,
what you just shared about moving through these different multitudes
of industries, it's it's actually really interesting. Right. People will
ask me, well, how did you go from PR to
music to politics to you know what I'm doing now?
And I try to share, you know, share with people.
It's really all the same. I mean, you know, being

(07:28):
in these industries, you know, if you understand what your
calling is. And I've known from a very very early age.
I grew up in Southeast DC and I would go,
you know, to the grocery store with my dad or
be out in the neighborhood with my family, and I
would see all of these people begging, homeless people and I,
you know, regular middle class family, and I would say,
the potential of this person, right, if they're they're begging

(07:49):
for food or begging for whatever. And I always would
say to my family, how do we bring them in?
How do we just help save them? Like I know
that there's something within them that you know, who knows
where they came from, right, what that journey looks like.
And I think for me growing up in DC, where
everybody was black, you know, Chocolate City was a thing
back then, I just saw the potential and everyone and everything.
And so when people ask me about my career, I say,

(08:10):
I'm just seeing the potential, right, I'm literally just seeing
the potential. When I worked in PR, I was seeing
the potential that you can storytell about the talent. When
I left and went to Innerscope, I worked in A
and R. I was seeing the potential and the fact
that you know, these artists can be big names and
music can transform the world with their voices or with
the things that they're saying, and same thing with President Obama.

(08:31):
You know, you see the potential in people, and then
you know, I feel like I had this secret sauce,
this ability to influence those different dynamics, and so from
a really early age, I was able to say, I
know I can influence here. I don't know exactly how
to do it, but if given the opportunity of given
the exposure, then I can move to these different worlds.
And so I feel like that's always been a theme
of the potential, and so you know, it all to

(08:53):
me is so connected because of that. That's so beautiful.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
And I think like even when I think of like
Deep Fox's book the Seventh Spirits Laws of Success, like
something that really resonated with me too, is like this
idea of endless possibility. You know, like really there's endless
potential in every moment, like in anything can be created
or made manifest, you know, in all different kinds of ways.

(09:18):
But I think that's so it's so important for people
to hear. And I think, you know, it's so funny
because something that we've talked about like more privately is
just when you are kind of known for.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
Big things, one how confusing.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
It is for other people that you can be free
and can Like I feel like I could walk in
any room, right. I know how God uses me, So
if I'm needed in that room, I don't care if
it's a room full of you know, anybody, musicians, financiers
like you know, the community, children, Like I know I
can walk in that room and I have something to offer.

(09:58):
I have something to give, And I think it's only
been in this like very bizarre weaponized purpose, you know,
kind of age that we've been in that we think
we have to quantify with titles, or we think we
have to teach people how it makes sense that I

(10:18):
went from doing this to doing this. And it's like
I get it because we want it to make sense
for us to Like that was my plight.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
I was like, how does this make sense?

Speaker 2 (10:28):
But in reality, it's what you've already been sharing. It's
like it it comes down to like knowing how God
uses you, having self trust, and knowing you don't have
to be defined by any one thing and it doesn't
have to make sense to anyone else. You know that
it all eventually, all our worlds eventually kind of embody

(10:52):
and merge and integrate in all the ways that they're
supposed to because we're gathering, we're gathering evidence, we're gathering
you know, skills.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
And so when I see like.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
This moment, like when I went with when I went
with you to see the movie in La a couple
months ago, I was watching you and your partners and
you know, the one of the women from Sundance was
announcing and calling you guys up, and you guys were
speaking and sharing, and I remember watching you in that
moment and just being like it makes perfect sense, you know.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
Like it just like I.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
So clearly like this movie literally to me, like clearly
embodies your path and everything that you've amassed on the way.
And so moments like this are so cool. You're being
witnessed right.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
No, Well, and to your point, I, you know, as
you were talking, one of the things that comes to
mind for me is how God made it happen yea,
And he made it happen through so much trial, Like
it all looks so good and you know, looks good
on the gram or looks what you know. People are like,
oh my gosh, now you have a movie. Well, do
you know how many jobs I've been fired from or
how many places I've had to remove myself from, you know,

(12:02):
And at the end of the day, it's because God
knew the ending. And how many sabotagories.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
On the path on the path, Oh so many.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
And so as I look back, I'm like, thank you God,
because at the end of the day, there were so
many jobs that I should have left where I knew
I had outgrown my purpose there, or I knew that
I was being sabotaged, or you just know, you know,
your spirit. My body talks to me in a way where,
you know, I remember as a kid, my dad would
take me to the doctor and say, you know, I
think maybe you're suffering from an ulcer because I would

(12:32):
have so much worry. So my body holds the feelings
of discomfort in a way that I can that I can,
you know, recognize, And so those types of situations have
happened to me over the course of this really full,
beautiful life. And when I think back, I'm like, this
moment of being able to have my experience culminate into
this film during a time when we need helpe and
we need to, you know, kind of reimagine the way

(12:54):
that we're being educated because a lot of what we
do with Visibility and with my company in general, is
we tell stories that haven't been and so we're kind
of combating against truth and lies. And at the same time,
when I think about my own journey, like the truth
is is that I didn't listen all the time to
what God told me to do.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
Girl, girl, like half the time, just.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Like you doing your thing right now, keep going, No,
I'm going like, did not listen at all. And he
kept telling me, He's like, you know that fill in
your stomach, you shouldn't be here. I remember the first
time I started going to therapy, I was living in
New York and I, you know, I wanted to find
a person that was convenient, you know, just like anything
or you know, I'm sure just like you. I want
to continue my rituals and the things that are focused

(13:35):
on my self care. And I said, in order for
me to be consistent with the therapy that I know
that I need, it needs to be close to my
job because I work so much. So I worked on
Fifth Avenue in New York City, and I said, if
I find a church close to me, I can go
for during my lunch break, or find a therapist go
during my lunch break, I found a woman her church.
Her office was in a church, and I said, wow,
oh well, I don't even have to look further, because

(13:57):
if her office for therapy is inside of a church,
that is absolutely she's going to take me as a client.
And I remember I went in to meet with her
for a consultation and she says, you know, I don't
take everybody. I'm very busy. You know, I need to
meet with you a couple of times to see if
I'm even a good fit. And she says, well, why
are you here? I said, I'm here because I know
I should not be in the job that I'm in

(14:17):
and I'm not listening to God, I'm not listening. And
so if I'm in a situation where I know I'm
not supposed to be, then what about me is having
me stay? And that's literally what I went to her for.
I went to her to uncover what is going on
in my own world where I wasn't strong enough to
leave a place that didn't value me, where my boss
didn't treat me well, Like what was it about me?

(14:38):
And so these journeys that I think, you know that
we go on and I connect that again, you know,
I feel like that was only God to lead me
to her eventually. You know, I'm no longer at that
place obviously, but I just remember not listening to his
word all the time and wanting to get validation in
other ways. But you always end up where you need
to end up, you know. So that that journey was

(14:59):
is something I always to back too, is I didn't
always listen, but you know, ended up here anyway. Wow.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
I mean, and it's such like that that connection is
like our younger versions, you know, it's like it takes
time to build that self trust, but like oh my gosh,
like when we finally surrender and like heard.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
You right, I got it.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah, I'm gonna do it.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
You know, it's like the ease and the power and
the grace that like floods in your life and like
these these hard situations and a lot of time, especially
you know in our in our bracket, like when we
were younger, like when we were young.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Adults, the world was different.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
I know, every generation says that, Like I really get
that from like my mom's generation. Now, I'm like, I
know y'all were looking at us like what reality is this?
But it was different and there really was we had
a stomach a lot a lot in a lot of
rooms and with kind of like a lot of manipulative
and oppressive ball sometimes like saboteurs, you know. And so

(16:04):
it's like when you are faith based, when you love yourself,
when you see people with eyes of love, it is
so hard to understand that people are behaving the way
that they are, Like it just doesn't make sense. And
so that congruence you don't always feel it.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yeah, it's so true. It is so true. And I
know that we, especially of women of color, we experience
it every day. And I think part of it is
what we're used to, right, So I'm used to feeling like,
you know, I'm not seen. I'm used to having to
advocate for myself. Now I don't like how that makes
me feel. Though I'm at a stage now, you know.
We were just talking about my birthday's coming up soon,
and I'm like, I don't want to be the next

(16:43):
next year, the next years of my life still having
to walk around and prove myself and explain why I
have value or explain why you should see me. That
feels very uncomfortable in my body. That's not the person
I want to be, and so how do I ensure
that I'm not in those spaces? Well, at the end
of the day, we're in these spaces every day. I
know so many women are in these spaces every day
just by virtue of what we look like. We have

(17:03):
these battles that we have to fight, and I just
I don't want to live in that space in my body,
and so finding out and finding ways to maneuver around
that is difficult. But I'm literally that's the journey I'm
on right now, is how do I ensure that whatever
rooms I'm in, you know, there's gonna there's always saboteurs
that that's literally what they do. And so how do
I duck and move and like, you know, figure out

(17:25):
how to combat them while also staying true to the
to the fact that I'm in a space in my
life where I don't want to have to keep striving. Yeah,
you know, I just want to receive. And so how
do I allow myself to receive what I know that
I deserve and stop striving so hard because that's not
the place I want to be in.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah, deeply, Well, we were talking off, you know,
about just about that dynamic, and it's so funny because
I think where we as women and women of like
wisdom and worth, where we land, which takes quite a

(18:04):
bit of practice eventually, But where we land is that
like you've been the room to your will without moving,
you know, and it's like we get to and I
think so many more of us, especially those with good
hearts and good intentions, we have to lean into the

(18:24):
fact that we naturally hold a powerful presence. But it's
so easy because you know how uncomfortable that can make
people sometimes, and so it's so easy to want to,
I don't know, just like make it feel. Be concerned
about how your innate natural presence. Yes, other people feel, yes,

(18:46):
But when you know you make good choices, when you
know you are listening to your higher power. I think
so many of us can take this permission and just say,
can I just remind.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
You you're not a bad person?

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yes, like you like you can trust that you are
showing up in light, and so take up your space.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
You know, it's funny you say that, because you know,
not too long ago, I was having a conversation with
someone and they were like, you know, it was really
interesting to just observe you in that space. So I
can't remember the exact event we were at, but one
of my business partners was there and he was like,
I'm observing you and you're giving like kind of little
sister energy. And I was like, huh, I've never heard
that before. And he's like, yeah, like you're so big,

(19:28):
you're so you know, you have such a presence, you
have such a light. And he was like, and in
this particular situation, it was he'd called it little sister energy.
There's no other way to describe it. And so I
of course processed that. I was, you know, talking to
you know a few folks like my therapist and you know,
I have a faith based coach too, and I'm like,
little sister energy is sitting with me in a way
that I need to unpack, right, and so what is

(19:49):
it about that room? What is it about me? Why
am I giving little sister energy? And so as I'm
you know, thinking about it and uncovering it is exactly
to your point, right, It's like, I guess dumbing myself down.
But how is I walking around like oh everybody, oh
build community, Oh do this thing to make everyone feel comfortable.
And I'm like, IW, like, I don't like that's that's

(20:11):
not who I am, right, Oh my god, that's just
so good girl. Yes, And so there was that, and
then as I was going deeper, right, I'm like, oh, well,
maybe some of that that's coming up in addition to
this idea of not wanting people to feel too disarmed
by the light that I bring. Right, I've been told
this since I was a kid. My dad's like, you
walk in a room and it's like, oh, you know.
And so I appreciated that validation that he gave me

(20:32):
because I felt it, like I felt that I was
different and I know that I get that attention and
I shouldn't have to shy away from it, I know,
you know, like we should be able to live in
our light. But the fact that I was behaving in
that way, I said, I think it's something deeper too.
And so I'm also going through this you know stage
where you know, you're kind of reevaluating relationships even with
your family sometimes or with your friends. And so what

(20:52):
I was realizing is that I have some wounds around
some of my sisterhoods. And so I'm like, okay, so
there's part of that too, right, Because I'm on this
journey to constantly uncover the deeper route to the thing.
And it wasn't just that I'm walking in a room
and like saying hey everybody in a way that made
me feel like a little sister. It's because I'm feeling
like a little sister that's not being nurtured. I am

(21:12):
a little sister and I'm not feeling the big sister
energy that I know that I need in my life.
And so at the end of the day, I think
there's some of that there too, which again is like,
you know, the only thing I need to pull source
from is God, is not from another person. But yeah,
they're still human, right, So there's still something there around
my little sister energy that is showing up maybe in

(21:33):
my family dynamics that I need to uncover and heal.
And so, you know, and I wondered, you know, sometimes
am I going too deep? Like am I connecting too
many different things that may not be there? I kind
of question myself sometimes in that So.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Would you allow me to say something to this second? Yeah,
so as someone that has seen you, yeah for like
twenty years, are right, Like I think people who don't
maybe have a refined sense or just kind of understand
light in the way it works would say something like

(22:08):
really flat, that doesn't apply, Like, oh, are there insecurities
that you care? Do you think that it's imposter syndrome
where you're walking into the room and try and you
know feel I don't hear that as any of that
like kind of the way I experience it as someone
that has seen you in a lot of rooms.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
There is like no insecurity that exists inside you.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
I've never experienced you, as like a woman or a friend,
as someone.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
That is insecure.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, we all have our stuff, right, but like I've
never seen you make any choices because there was this
feeling of not enough or deficiency or trying to like please.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
To be liked.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Right, But what I will say is like it's probably
that sensitivity that you talk about when you were feeling
those knots in your stomach and noticing as highly sensitive people,
which is a very real thing and for so many
of us as women and likely if you listen to
this show, come on, you are more than likely highly
sensitive too. But it's feeling that you know how bright

(23:16):
you are, and that cast shadow on people that are
not secure in themselves for a variety of reasons, right,
that are kind of struggling or wanting or needing to
feel seen in different ways. You know from historical evidence
what that kind of nature shines towards you.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
And so sometimes you go in saying.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Not you personally, I'm saying, you know those of us
that have that contrast. Sometimes you go in and it's
really you leading with compassion. So even like I appreciate
that example he gave you because that makes sense, but
like that leading that little sister energy, like it feels
more like I'm walking in knowing that I can trigger

(24:01):
some people's insecurities, whether I mean to or not, whether
I ever know what they are or not, And to
protect against having to take on the load of someone else,
I like to neutralize the space first. And now it's
like there's different ways to work with that energy. But yeah,
it's so interesting layers.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Oh my gosh. Okay, So to that point, it was
there was an actual situation in Martha's Vineyard while I
went into an event, and what you're describing, I remember
consciously doing that. I said, if I walk in this
room as myself like, there's going to be backlash.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
I don't know what it was.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
I was like, people are not going to feel they're
not going to like it, right, I just could sense
like it was kind of like a work environment. It's
new colleagues. I said, I need to come in and
you know, still be myself, but like go towards those
that are not the underdogs. But the more, you know,
not awkward, but just like you know, the folks, I
don't have as much of the they might be on
the fringes. The fringes yeah, yeah, so no, it can

(24:59):
no shade at all. But I just I knew, I said,
I need to go be with those people, and so
something in me was like, I'm going to go with
and make sure to neutralize. So that word that you use,
just it just touched me so deeply just now because
that that is what I do, and I remember in
the vineyard doing that. I was like, I need to
neutralize this energy because if I don't, then who knows

(25:19):
if I'm going to get the outcomes that I need
for the rest of this project or for whatever's next.
I had to consciously neutralize the room. And so I
you using that language for me is very very helpful
because I wasn't thinking of it in that way at
the time. I was like, let me go find the
person who I know. You know, but it is something
that I that I do. And funny enough, even when
when my partner mentioned the little sister energy, the reason

(25:40):
why it sat with me so much is to your point,
I was like, I don't feel like I'm dimming my
I don't feel like that's because you're not.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
I've never seen you trying to prove right. It's like
you're not. Like you get a lot of like great
things that you know, move in your life, so you're
not Yeah, you're not trying to win people over. But
I think it's so cool that we're actually having this
talk out loud. I hope this is really useful for
people listening because I think this dynamic we're speaking to

(26:06):
it is such a nuanced experience. But women with light
and I know so many women listening to the show
and men thank you so much, but carry a light
that they've been trying to understand for their whole lives.
And when you have light and you're led by that
in your leadership roles, you're not led by ego. It

(26:30):
is very confusing how to take up space because you
don't need to be aggrandizing, you don't need to walk
in the room and tell it this is who I
am and this is what I do, and this is
why you should be thinking I'm powerful and want to
earn my attention. And then there's other people that's like
I already feel really good about who I am and
what I'm doing, and somehow that's provoking to some people

(26:52):
in a different way. So finding that balance, I think
so many of us work with that energy for so
much of our lives, and then the more work we
do on ourselves, you know, like you've been describing in
your process, it's like then we get to land and
understand like, oh, yeah, because those are the like the
people in the room who have a nature to try

(27:14):
to disminish others when they feel that feeling.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
And then you learn, oh.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
They're actually the first to fold.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah, Like as soon as I stop participating with this
and thinking I need to even neutralize them, they fold. Yeah,
they don't know what else to do, you know. But
it's like, yeah, I love that.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
It's so true. I'm sorry, no, yeah, because we're not.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
I think there is a percentage of women right now
that are really navigating this because they're called to new
levels of leadership and new levels of community, and you
have to be truly so pristine and aligned when you
are called to lead in your community building.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Right, Yeah, makes sense, it does. And what you're describing
is literally to your point of whoever's listening, why I'm
actively navigating this literally as we speak. You've talked about
it today, I'm navigating it. And so it's one of
these situations where I used to feel the light that
we're describing. I used to, I mean for decades, like
I would come into a room and I felt that

(28:15):
I had this inner beacon, like this light. And then
there was you know, some things that happened the past
couple of years where I felt a little bit disconnected.
And so one of the practices that I've been doing
lately and even in my affirmations and my journaling, and
I've been doing these guided like hypnosis meditations, and I've
been saying like, oh, I like, where's my light? And
so and as I'm working with people, they are like, oh,

(28:36):
your light is there, and I'm like, I just don't
feel I used to be able to feel like I
could see it coming out of my body. I used
to be able to walk around and I was like
the light coming down from the top of my head.
I used to walk in the light. It was so strong.
And so there's something has happened in the past couple
of years where I'm like, why don't I feel it.
I'm about to be forty four. I felt the light
for you know, two decades right or more where I

(28:57):
can identify that I have the thing, and so it's
been It's caused me a little bit of turmoil. I'm like,
why don't I feel it the same way?

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Now?

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Luckily I have people, not that I need the validation,
but it is nice at times when you're wondering where
something has gone, I'm like, no, no, it's there. And
so even unpacking that, I'm like, is it that I've
had grief with lost the past couple of years and
I just am feeling disconnected? Is it? So I'm like,
why don't I feel it in the same way? But
I know that it is me, Like I know again
that the source that God has put the light in

(29:25):
me and that it can't be dimmed, it can't be
taken away. But it has been an interesting navigation that
you're describing because I used to be able to see
it in myself and I know it's there, but I,
like I said, I used to radiate it, used to
the warmth I could feel around my own body in
a way that I haven't felt.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
It's coming back. I will say it's coming back.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
But last year was tough and I would wake up
and be like this, where'd the light go? You know?
And so it is I think an active navigation that's
happening for many of us. Yeah, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah and even just yeah what is sometimes grief requires
are life? You know, Like sometimes it's like I think,
also something I'm learning that I think we all, I
think could just bring us all a little peace and
knowing that like it all, it all fluctuates, but it

(30:15):
doesn't have to mean anything is wrong, right, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
It's like, yeah, like sometimes you got to turn the
lights off, you know.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, or in some seasons it's actually protection because
if you're super bright, that it might not be the
season for that spiritually in the air, you know. But
I still resonate with that, like really really deeply, And
I think that's interesting, Like for everybody listening right now,
spend some time on thinking that on just like.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Where do you feel your light? How do you feel it?

Speaker 2 (30:47):
And then what are you being told about right now?
You know, I think we're all getting like new deeper
understandings and messages from the divine right now on like
how to surf, absolutely to serve.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. I know we talked about
being a community builder. I've been a community girl my
whole life, like literally, like the brand on my back
is like community girl. And so even at different phases
of my career, I've run foundations for professional athletes and
done these different things. And then I woke up at
a certain point and was like, I'm community girl, but
I might not be foundation girl, right, I'm like, maybe

(31:22):
I'm I'm taking this too far, right, And so that
brand of who I am and what I've loved to
do and every job I've done has been about building community.
I have pride in that that is part of my purpose.
I'm very clear that my purpose is to do that.
But as I've navigated you know, these different phases to
your point about light and all of that, it's you know,
I'm at this phase now where I'm like, how do

(31:43):
I want to build community? Different? Because sometimes I'm building
community because I see that there's a need. Is that
my role? Is that my job?

Speaker 2 (31:50):
Though?

Speaker 1 (31:51):
And so you know, when I was dealing with grief,
my beautiful niece, Savilla passed away of cancer. It'll be
you know, two years in April. It is the most
devastating thing that you could ever imagine. And she's just
such a light. She used to pray for other kids
that had cancer, she used to chant with my mom
and and just be just the most spiritual little girl.

(32:13):
And we know that, you know, the way that we
were able to cope with that is, you know, God
did us a favor by letting us have her, even
for the little bit of time we were supposed to
have her, Like she wasn't meant to be here. She
was just beyond her years and he wanted her back,
and so you know, we have to just deal with that.
But you know, I share that to say that during
that horrible phase of this, it's a phase that will

(32:33):
never go away. But during during that that grief, I
was having a really hard time praying, and I you know,
of course, it's like, oh, you know, you try to
be okay with it because you have no choice. You know,
we literally, as a family watched her and take her
last breath, which is horrible, Oh my God, But you know,
so we're like, okay, so you gave us to her
for what she was meant to be here for, which

(32:55):
was to bring love, and she was such a loving girl.
And then the other piece of it is like, you know,
I know that God doesn't make mistakes, So if I
trust God, I know he doesn't make mistakes. So if
he's not making a mistake, then I have to be
okay with it. And so as I went through and
tried to pray more and just I couldn't like it
was so it was, and I guess it's normal, Like
the more I read about it, it's normal to be

(33:16):
mad at God. And I know you talk about that
in your book too, And so I was upset, but
I was trying not to be. I was trying to
be like, God, I know you don't make mistakes. And yes,
we're grieving and this is horrible, even more horrible for
her mom and her dad and her sister and my
mom who helped raise her. But I'm like, I need
to build community to get me closer to God. So
I specifically, I like started a group chat with women

(33:37):
in sports and entertainment, and just I chose women who
I was really close with, like swin Cash, who I
know is a faithful servant. And then I also went
and I don't know if I should have done this,
I'll say that, but what I also did was I
looked with them my network of people who have been
kind of talking a bit about wanting to get closer
to God. And I was like, well, I'm doing this
for me, but maybe I can be of service in

(33:57):
my community. So in addition to me going to the
women who I know are faithful and you know, can
pray for me and help me get over this hump,
maybe I can also do what I do with my jobs, right,
is feel community. And so women who I know were
struggling with their own faith, I invited them because maybe
they can be closer to God by being part of
this community. And so it ended up being forty women

(34:18):
in this chat. And so I'm really proud and these
women all connected all the time. But even in when
I think about who I want to be in the future,
is that my responsibility, Like I don't know the answer, right,
is it my responsibility to then bring along others when
I know it's my purpose to do that. And I
know I'm rambling a little bit, but it's something that
I that I'm thinking about. Right, It's like, should have

(34:39):
just been my core group of people? Like what is
it about me that wants to constantly bring others along?
And again, I know it's my purpose, but at what
detriment to me?

Speaker 2 (34:49):
You know? I just I'm so thank you for like
letting all of us into your process, because I think
it's incredibly important that you're saying this out loud, and
I think this is really a theme right now for
a certain percentage of people.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
And I think as women, like that's.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Such a great evaluation of ways to kind of take
a step back and do this often and just evaluate,
like this is who I am right now? Is this
like where I want to be? Is this who I
still feel like I should be? And what is like
the greater cost of that? Because as women were trained

(35:30):
to be martyrs, we're trained to be the ones that
pull everybody in.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
And some of that.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Obviously is so beautiful, but sometimes at what cost? Right?

Speaker 1 (35:41):
And like where are there blind.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Spots possible in that?

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Right? Especially in the mixing of communities, Like I think
that's something we're navigating in community right now is like
I didn't realize people had different definitions for integrity, right,
you know, that's just.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
One and maybe all.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
All experiences aren't always one size fits all, Like everybody
can come into that room. There are some rooms that
should be general admission, no matter where you are on
your journey, but there is there are some rooms where
some people are still in their fundamental learning and it

(36:26):
can be sometimes dangerous or chaotic or just not serving
to like mix with people who are needing something else
on their journey at that time.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, exactly so. And I don't know the answer because
I think so much in my identity is known for that.
And I'm getting the recognition, right, Like I get messages
all the time from these women like thank you because
now I'm super close with this person or this person.
The introduction of this community has allowed me this opportunity,
and that's really what I want. Right, But then is
it still a safe space for me?

Speaker 2 (36:56):
Like?

Speaker 1 (36:57):
And is that selfish? Right? It was built because I
was greeting my niece and I wanted a space where
I can have accountability. I'm leaving Bible studies, you know,
once a month on these zooms and I'm like, am
I qualified? You know, Like at the end of each one,
I ask if anyone wants to pray, and I'm like,
I'm not even good at this, right, And then I
do it and they're like you're great, and I'm like,
but you know, so there's these these different things. And

(37:18):
so the intention was community, but I make this very public.
It was selfishly because I need I needed something to
bring me closer to God because I was feeling so naked.
I was feeling so naked, not having the light mixed
with God, mixed with the ability to be able to
think something and have it manifest into reality the way
that I was able to do it in the past,
and I was just feeling naked. And so, you know,

(37:40):
in building that, I think part of it is the
cloak of community too. I'm like, oh, if I have
these other people and that means that this is a
whole group of people praying for me. And again, I
don't know if that's still accurate, right, Like, I don't know,
I don't know. I honestly I don't have the answer,
but it's something I'm thinking about. Yeah, I love this.
The answers will arise.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, I meant to, right, And I can't wait to
see like this time next year. I can't wait to like, yes,
care about all the things, you know, kind of speaking
to that, like, let's I want to lean in here
a little bit more, and I really want to talk
about the movie.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
You know, holding so many.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Spaces, with such a variety of creative's minds, of people,
of you know, even movements. What does it really take
for you at this point to stay centered while living
a full, purpose driven life? You know, I know you
have this amazing group that you've built, but how else,

(38:35):
maybe are you privately tending to your own spirit?

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah? No, it's a great question. We talked a bit
about like my home is my sanctuary, right, I know
your home is your sanctuary. And you know, I remember
making that move and thinking if I don't get out
of the situation that I'm in, And it wasn't like
it was, you know, I lived in a condo in Maryland.
I loved it. It was great. It had art deco vibes,
eleventerior design. But I remember feeling so claustrophobic. I felt,

(39:00):
I physically felt like I was suffocating, and I hadn't
had that feeling before, and obviously it was you know,
coming out of the pandemic, and we all, I'm sure
it felt claustrophobic, but there was something where I was like,
I need to expand for my mental health, Like I
need to create a space that feels like it's holding
me right, you know, I wanted to be held and
I felt like my environment could hold me. Yeah, And
so when I moved to Florida and I found this

(39:22):
property and it's on this beautiful canal, and I was like,
I'm going to renovate it and make it a place
that feels like a retreat, that feels like a sanctuary.
And so going home gives me that I'm going through
various like rituals and practices that I learned from you,
and oftentimes feel inadequate and feel guilty that I'm not
as consistent as I know I need to be to

(39:43):
be who I want to be. And so I find
that to be an interesting practice of care too, because
I know what I need to do, and I think
this happens to so many of us women. And I
know that's why you wrote, you know, living in Wisdom,
because it's for people literally just like me, where we
go to the retreats, and we read the books and
we listen to all the podcasts, but then you're actually
teaching us, like, literally, this is how you deal with this.

(40:04):
These are the actual modalities that you use. And that's
been infinitely helpful for me. I'm literally the audience for
what you've done and so much. It means so much
because now I feel like, you know, that can help
me get to the next level. And so you know,
it's hard, right because I have in the back of
my mind every day this vision of myself, and I
know my potential and I know that even in the

(40:27):
spaces that I've been in immediate entertainment, that doesn't feel
like home to me. It doesn't feel safe to me,
you know. And so if I don't feel safe in
these environments where I poured my life in my career,
and like I don't want to be in those spaces,
you know, you know, I haven't felt appreciated all the
time in those spaces. And so I say all that
to say that now part of my ritual is to
find new spaces where I do feel seen and to

(40:49):
look at my purpose and my skill set and say, oh, yeah,
I was to shit over here at the NBA and
at Obama at this and now I'm a movie producer
and I have a company, and my company doestrategy and
we help other people see the light and have these
different opportunities. But I think a lot of the practice
is in the work that you do and the work
that you're teaching us all to do. And it is
a daily, you know practice, you know, like you say,

(41:12):
to try to to try to reach to the places
where I feel inner peace and I feel like I'm
growing in the ways that I need to. I will
say full transparency. Sometimes it feels like it needs to
be a full time job. Woo girl. I'm like, yeah,
I reach my full potential of this new way that
I see my life if it feels like a full
time job and that doesn't feel like a chore, it

(41:34):
feels beautiful. Yeah. But I'm like, in order for me
to do the work, I need to, like, you know,
how are you gonna pay the bills and then work
on yourself? Oh my god, what do you do?

Speaker 2 (41:45):
Right?

Speaker 1 (41:45):
So like, and I'm sure many people are thinking that, like,
how what do we do?

Speaker 2 (41:49):
You know?

Speaker 1 (41:49):
It's abadical, I don't know, but oh I felt that.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Deeply because i'd be like I need three weeks to recover.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Right, you know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
But you know what to every that you're saying, and
just like, thank you so much for the generosity of
spirit and speaking to my book and the practices. But
it won't be like that forever. Yeah, you know, I
think when we're developing, and it'll happen every few years.
But because I find that myself, I'm redeveloping what are
the practices I need right now, right and those are

(42:22):
going to change, and so every few years, I feel
like I redevelop what I actually require and you start over.
But yeah, at first, it's definitely a full time job.
It's exhausting. You're like, oh my god, how much are
all these bags of epsom song?

Speaker 3 (42:37):
Like this is a lot.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
But then you'll notice that you have so healed and
nourished into the present that now you're above ground and
you can you can really become more with.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
A lot less.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
It'll take so much less to get you to get
like right to that point again of just you know,
feeling rested and ready to shine and ready to give.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
What's funny about you saying that is I feel like
I was before the loss of my niece and before
that time of like just such intense grief, which again
is always there, but I felt like I was really close,
you know, like I was like, oh, I was so close,
Like I was going to the retreats with you and
Queen of Fula doing all the deepok stuff and you know,
crazy enough, I ended up interviewing Deepak on a stage

(43:23):
at an entire football arena. Oh my god, I was like,
who am I? Like, who am I?

Speaker 3 (43:28):
I'm meeting medication on state.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
I'm like, this is literally God manifesting in my life
for all the things I want to be and do
and and my where my attention has been going, my
focus has been going on being rewarded. And then it
all kind of it didn't fall by the wayside, but
it just it shifted. And so to your point about
these seasons, I felt so close and so there is
some grief in that, you know, like I'm starting fresh.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, no judgment, yeah, deeply. Well, sometimes we get to
glimpse what's coming, but only because we're gonna temper our
reality to get more use to operating at that frequency

(44:12):
full time. So it's like I've had experiences like that myself,
where I was just like I've gotten the thing you're
and then you're like and no calls for two years,
right or like oh and nothing else like that.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
Right now, I would be doing this every day.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
But I found that, like you don't actually need to
be right because like sometimes you impact in the exact
way that you're supposed to, and you can take a
lot of space and then the rest of your life
catches up to hold the full kind of weight and
frequency of what it is to do that work every day,
because I think, like especially and i'd be so curious

(44:50):
for listeners listening you know, dm us like at us,
like if anyone else is having this experience.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
But like when I.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
First knew that I I was called to be in
like this work of being deeply well no pun intended,
I would have really intense seasons of being in it
and then kind of being out of it. And what
I realized is I had to really prepare for what
I was going to hold, Like there were additional things

(45:22):
that I needed to move out of my body and
my life, like grief is one of them.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
Limiting thoughts.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Gaining mastery and knowing how to take care of myself
and hold kind of big space for heart hearing, really
hard things that if I had started doing all of
that when I was early on this path, I wouldn't
have survived, you know, I would not have survived. There
are some things, and you know, like we've been in
a retreat room before, you know, some things that are

(45:51):
shared when you're coming into these spaces to lead like.

Speaker 3 (45:56):
That are really hard, that are really.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Painful for people, you know, and you got to have
the space in there for it. And so I just
want to I want to honor and recognize that, Like
I don't know that it's ever because someone is ill
equipped or deficient, or because it's not somehow the path

(46:18):
has been pulled away and that's not going to be
where you're meant to be. I think we get to
say it's kind of how the astrology transits work, like
you get to dip in for a little bit and
then you come back and your body readjusts and now
your life begins to readjust to hold the fullness of
that reality full time.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
That feels that way though to that point, it's like,
you know, the vulnerability that I'm sharing around my struggles
now is I feel like that's part of the story too.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Hell yeah, I'm like I have to, like I had,
we need it because we got to know how you
engineered it. Everybody needs to know, like how did you
get yourself there? Because then people know you are who
you say you are exactly. There are a lot of
people that every time the tide change it We have
seen this every time the tide changes in the zeitgeist

(47:08):
and something new is in. I remember, I'll use an
example of like this one person I happened to notice
on social where anytime any new thing was the leading
conversation or in their bio changed. So they went from
being such and such to being, you know, an anti
racism activist to being a wellness guru to being you know,

(47:29):
like everything that would be or originally started as like
the shadiest would call out and keep it real and
drop shade. And it's just like, those aren't people that
live the wisdom, right, Those aren't people that live the
work and serve with the work.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
And I think this is what really.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
And I hope this gets driven home for everybody listening.
Those in between passages are like where we earn it,
where we really prove to God that we can be
trying that we are who we say we are, and
then we're actually having useful, helpful, important, nourishing things to

(48:09):
share with people, not just more talk about well you
should be doing this?

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Really did you did you do that? Is that how
you did it?

Speaker 2 (48:16):
You know? So?

Speaker 3 (48:17):
Like I just I love it because.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
We need this grace and we're always going to be
dipping into a middle passage, you know, every every five years,
every decade, but uh happen?

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Yeah, Well it's funny. As a kid, I remember I
used to say to myself, like, what did you do
to deserve all this goodness? Like not in a self
deprecating way, but I used to be like, God, You're
so good to me? Am I good to you? Like
I remember having this kude, Oh my gosh, since I
was a kid, twelve thirteen years old. I remember being like,
why why are you so?

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Why me? Like?

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Am I going to church the way I'm supposed to?
This is I wasn't even in high school yet. I
just remember having these dialogues with myself and God, like
you do everything for me, You provide I can think
of some thing and you'll give it to me. And
am I pleasing to you? Am I doing what I'm
supposed to do to you, and so what you're sharing
right now. As far as like the Middle Passage, I
do feel like now I'm earning it. Like it not

(49:11):
that he wants to punish me or have me get
de grief. It's like I I in a weird way,
it's kind of coming full circle because I feel like
my life has been such a blessing as it should be.
I deserve I'm God's favorite child. I deserve it. I
deserve all the things. And at the same time, I
remember having the thoughts of like, if I'm not obedient
to what he's asking me to do, if I'm not

(49:32):
going into the house of God, if I don't have
our church home, why why do I get all the things?
Why does he give me everything? And so there's something
about that that I think many of us think about,
even if we don't stay out loud. I've never really
said that out loud either, but I believe this Middle
Passage and this, like you said, going through this thing
is like, in a weird way, it's giving me the
grit again. I don't want a hard life. I want
to sell I want to come life.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Look this all this life I could get.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
But there's something there's so much validity to what you
just said, the authenticity of that, and there's some of
that I feel, Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
I'm just so glad we're having this exact conversation we're
having because this is what I think, this is what
we all need. We need to understand the nuance of
what it is to live purpose driven, what it is
to be the multifaceted dynamic women all of us are.
All of us have so many facets, you know, and

(50:30):
I think we're all learning how to take up space
with them. I did this event recently and Rebecca Minkoff
has this women's cohort in leadership, and she said something
I had never in my.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
Life thought about, Like she was just like, you.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
Know, women have only been working for one hundred years.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
And I really like, let that sink in.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Now.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Granted we work in yeah, and depending on the cultural background,
like women have in less. You know, in previous time,
unless you were married and of a certain background, you
were working in some capacity. But like this idea that
women have only been really working professionally and being allowed

(51:12):
to earn their own money for one hundred years, like
a century is nothing. And then when you actually shoot
that forward and say women that have been living purposefully
right and or having big careers or big dynamic lives.
That's been forty years. Wow, we're still learning. So the

(51:36):
fact that you and I can have this vulnerable conversation
where someone can hear the way you move and reckon
inside outside of the optics of she worked with President Obama, right,
like big people have respect for her Obama, Jay Z
leading athletes, probably the commissioner at the NBA, you know,

(51:58):
like these are people that respect you and have leaned
on you over the years. And then to also understand
all the inner workings as we still are settling into
what that is for us, Like we're still the pioneers,
honestly of what it is to be career driven, purposeful women.

Speaker 3 (52:19):
We're the first batch.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
There have been those outliers, those one or two women
that made it big that you'd hear about around the country,
but now it's like, you know, there's millions, and so
this is still new. We are still learning how to
lead our way.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
It's so true. And as you're talking about the leading
of it all right, you think about the careers and
the jobs. One of the exercises I've been trying to
practice as I'm you know, doing this, you know, press
tour for the film and having different conversations on different panels.
I'm like, how do I describe myself without leading with NBA, Obama?

Speaker 3 (52:54):
This job, that job? Like how does that release the roles?

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Yeah? Release the role? You know well and to your point,
but for only for forty years have we had these jobs?
Like why do I want to release that?

Speaker 2 (53:05):
Right?

Speaker 3 (53:05):
Should it be something that's really interesting?

Speaker 1 (53:07):
It's really interesting? Right? Like is that? And it was
given to me as a challenge, as an exercise actually,
and so I'm like, well, oh yeah, let me try
to do that, Like what does it look like? Because
and I've spoken to you about this, like I don't
feel like I hold the titles and the affiliations as
my identity. I never have. That's never been something like
it's nice to go to games and yeah I got
pictures with Obama and jay Z like that's cute. But

(53:29):
I've got there's so much respect for me in my
work that it's been able to transcend the title of
the job. Right, I'm a respected person who does what
I do, and that is the title that I like
to hold. Right that I'm an expert in my field
and I'm sought after to do what I do. But
this idea to describe myself or to go on, you know,
I just take culture con amani amazing, amazing experience. And

(53:51):
it was like, how do I you know, obviously someone
says your bio, but how do I talk about my
work and not talk about the actual job? Oh my gosh.
And it's really like, it's the purpose driven work, it's
the connectivity, it's the community. But when you mentioned the
forty years and one hundred years, it's making me think
like what is that about? Right? Like do we not
need to continue to lead with that in order to

(54:12):
inspire others? And you know, such an interesting yes, is
it necessary?

Speaker 2 (54:17):
I think we we all need to land in our truest,
most grounded service based understanding of why those titles can
be useful, have respect for how they were earned, but
definitely not quantify self with them and not use it
as like a tactic to like dominate a space, you know,

(54:40):
because I found like for myself, like I definitely wrestled
with that when I was changing worlds because I felt
like there was this whole side of me that I
was actually like bearing you know that it was just like, oh,
she doesn't exist anymore. And it took ten years for
some of it to come circle full circle and me

(55:02):
kind of be able to use both. But I would
have the experience, I'm so curious to share this with you,
Like I would have the experience in the last handful.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Of years where people would.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Project sometimes in some rooms, mostly professional women rooms, where
they would project this irritation onto me because I don't
lean into titles, and some people would falsely assume that's
some kind of insecurity clearly not no I or you know,
they It would just irritate them because they were so

(55:36):
used to feeling valuable based on who they were telling
people they were. And I would just show up and
be like, hey, I'm Debbie, and if people be like
and what else, I'd be like.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
I'm Debbie.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Here's what I stand for, no matter who I'm working for,
what I'm doing, like not leading with that, and that
can provoke people as well, you know. So it's such
an interesting juggle to try to figure out how to
how do I express the truth of my professionalism, the
truth of my expertise, without also bringing a lot of

(56:07):
hubris into it and making it seem egoic or above.
And still in this day and age where people can
say they are whatever they are, the nuance is important, right,
Like there is a distinction of not a title because
it makes you valuable, but owning the fact that you

(56:28):
have earned your perspective, that you've really earned what you
bring into a space and like what you rely on
to get to that information.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
I hope I'm making sense. No, you are, And what's
coming up for me is it's like the it's part
of that, but with a little bit of a different
angle that's coming to mind from the perspective of you know,
when I'm not leading with my title and when I'm
no longer in those jobs, even though I have the reputation,
I have, the you would think, the respect I have,
the background, the bio, all the things that you're describing

(57:01):
that exists. That's true, it's real. And for whatever reason, now,
if I'm not directly working in the NBA, for example,
spaces where I was welcome, I don't feel welcome, and
spaces where I would normally get an invite, I'm not
no longer invited. And so part of that is like, well,
your party's gonna be whack anyway because I'm not there.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
I'm like, go ahead, and I have you know, but
but there is.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
A piece of it that's like, huh okay. So to
your point around these amazing women, I have these amazing
colleagues who I work with women in sports, and they
have these coalitions and organizations and for whatever reason, like
because I'm no longer in that job, even though I'm
doing similar work, I'm doing work to me that's even
more purposeful. I'm doing it as an entrepreneur, which is
really hard. Five years in, still an entrepreneur. That's super

(57:45):
super hard from a statistical standpoint. I still have a
business that's viable where I haven't had to go back
in house, and all of a sudden, that's no longer
my community. How did that happen?

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Right?

Speaker 1 (57:54):
Like what happened that? Now? You know I'm not part
of that thing? And so and of course I see folks,
and you know, you go to All Star and you
see people, but that part has been really interesting. I'm like, so,
now you've thrown me away or you've discarded me because
I'm not leading with that title, or I'm no longer
in that job. When in reality. The thing that I'm
so proud of is that I've been able to expand

(58:15):
my portfolio. So you might see me at the Oscars.
Now you saw you were just at the SP's and
they showed my movie at the SPI's. They showed the
trailer at the SP's in front of every athlete that
was there. Right, So I'm like, well, I'm getting access
to bigger rooms, but I don't treat people that way.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
But that's what that is, right, It's just you're being
asked to bring your full focus into different rooms, right,
you know, And like I think that is like that
kind of what would I call it, like the initiation
where you're kind of like, oh, I have to be
rejected a little yes to like really lock in my
focus and see like, oh this is.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
What's in front of me. Absolutely, And what's exciting about
that is you know again and not from an ego,
you know, perspective, but part of me is like, oh you,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
I'm always like thank you God, Like now I know
who you really are and when it look like seven
years ago at the NBA and who who you really are,
who we are to each other today, Thank you God,
Thank you. Oh my gosh. And so that's been something
that I'm so grateful that I've had in me for
I don't know when God placed it, but it feels
like decades where it's you know, yes, of course you
always want to have people thinking of you, but the

(59:21):
reality is I'm like, thank you God, because things come
full circle, right, like things always come full circle. But
more importantly, I'm in spaces I never thought I dream of.
And when I think of my portfolio, my body of work,
I'm like, I've been in all these spaces. And sometimes
it feels like, you know, someone asked me the other day,
would you ever go back in house at some of
these other jobs? And I said, why would I go backwards?

(59:42):
Why would I go backwards? I don't. I've gotten job offers,
I've had the opportunity. Why And it's no shade, but
like my trajectory is telling me to move forward and
to push beyond. And it's not that I'm missing anything
from the past, but it's it's just interesting to me
because again, as a community builder, I'm like, oh, this
is great, Like, let's just keep collecting more opportunities to collaborate.

(01:00:04):
And so it has been an interesting journey, you know
again as women in this space and having these these
big jobs and doing these big things, especially at a
young age, you know, And so I'm like, well, I've
already done that. Like you want to work for the mayor,
I work for the president, like, you know, like on
a big scale, to the point where he would see
me at an event and he would come up to
me and say, I knew this was you, Like I'll

(01:00:26):
never forget. Like I was standing in the hallway at
forty forty Club with Jay Z and Beyonce and he
comes down the hallway and I'm thinking he's going to
address her, and he says, I just wanted to tell
you I knew this was you. I knew this was you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
And so to have that branding real surreal.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
So, you know, at the end of the day, I
have these memories and these things that feed my soul
and my spirit. But to your point, we go into
these rooms and spaces sometimes and I'm trying to temper
the ego and temper all the things, and sometimes people
want to humble you, you know in other ways.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Yeah, so they think so they right, freedom is hard
for people. Yeah, freedom is hard, like real authentic freedom,
is rare. Yeah, and it's hard sometimes for some people.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
To behold it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
You get such a you get the polarity of it
where you can deeply inspire, like I mean, you're inspiring
at the core of someone's spirit what's possible. And there's
the shadow aspect where someone and they'll never name it,
right like, they'll never say it out loud. Hopefully they
come to it because it would heal. But the freedom,

(01:01:31):
the ease of movement, the brilliance that shines in any capacity,
right like that is so hard for some people to
witness and they could never dare it or dream it
for themselves. Yeah, and their own limitation. It's humans are
so fascinating, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
And it's even hard to hear you say that because
I'm like, oh, is that me? Like you kind of
are like, oh, I don't, I don't, I don't ye,
I'm that light. But it's like what you're saying is
true and that it's like I want to be humble
and not not not think that about myself, but you
kind of it's hard to hear sometimes. Yeah, you know
it is you. Yeah, it's me too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Yeah, it's it's it's there are women, there are men.
There are beans like this, and it is a thing
that's hard to talk about and you don't even know
how or who to talk about it too, But it's
it is a dynamic that's experienced and I think, I
mean for so many of us, and I'll be I'll
be really excited when societally, collectively we actually begin having

(01:02:35):
this conversation for real.

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
But what workplace.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Trauma actually is what friend trauma is?

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Right, We've been we've been checking off the list, we've
been experiencing, you know, diving deep on all different facets
of trauma, and collectively we've been focused on familial trauma,
you know, for especially the last five years. But when
we get into the nuanced space of that and how
some people's darkness and more insidious nature shows up and

(01:03:05):
is so hidden and concealed in environments like that, how
people cause real damage and harm to other people with
a smile on their face and a well positioned email,
you know. Like it's just like, these are real things
that we deal with, and they are hard, and they
are disappointing, and sometimes it takes real healing time you

(01:03:27):
have to pull away and heal. But we can do it,
and everyone else you know, the perpetrators usually don't advance.
And I think now it's been kind of cool at
this age, since I've turned forty to look back and
you can really have so much historical evidence for things
that your gut and spirit might have felt a long

(01:03:48):
time ago, where you're like, that's not the right choice
or not there. You know it's not going to end
up well, you know, for them behaving that way or back.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
And now I've seen it. It's true.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Nobody, you know, nobody that was that I would see
being underhanded or harmful or cruel to other people in
the workplace on the career rise. Not a single one
of them is anywhere i'd want to be right exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
And that's funny how that works.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Yeah, and we can all trust it. And I want
people to know that you can trust that even sometimes
you will have to endure unfairness. We don't know the
length of time.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
But yeah, and sometimes you see the people that are
doing harm get ahead. Yeah, I see that too, and
I'm like, how did that happen? And I'm like, but
it's not going to at the very end of the day,
And not that you wish that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
In the long game, it really doesn't or there is
an outward success and inward failure, you know, and that
that's always on their mind more. You know, Well, God,
we could talk for days. I just ran into an
old Boston and I was like, oh, so.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Many thoughts.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Deeply, Well, I want to dive in and really talk
about hoops, hopes and dreams. So that's your newest project.
It premiered at Sundance this year. It has already received
like incredible recognition. This story is so fascinating. When I
saw this movie, I had no idea what to expect,

(01:05:18):
and I was like blown away by the story that's
being told in this film and also like the natural
sense it made that would never have occurred to me prior.
But can you please share a little bit about what
this very unique film is about.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Yeah. Absolutely, it's funny because as we're talking about, well
not funny, but you know the connection between grief and feelings.
And so I'll just tell you how I got involved
in the project first, because it is you know, it's
a hard situation, but it turned into this you know,
beautiful outcome. But I'm not sure if you know Michael
lat or have heard about Michael Latt, but He's someone
who's been a champion, purpose driven leader. He had an

(01:05:58):
organization called Lead with Love. A lot of people in
LA and just nationally knew him and worked with Abra
Duffernay in Common and Ryan Coogler and all these amazing folks.
And so he's just very aligned with who I am
as a person. And so I remember over the years
people saying, there's this white guy that does what you do,
but in film, they're like, do you know him? He's
he's like the white kid. But people always would describe

(01:06:18):
him as that, like he's you know, people used the
word ally, but he was bigger than that. And so
over the years I had never met him. And then
eventually I got a phone call of an introduction. They
said you need to know Michael. So I say, hey,
you know, I've heard about you. I keep getting compared
to you or people keep saying, you know, you need
to talk to Michael. And so I was coming to LA.
We had dinner, and I get to dinner and he
has a book and the book was called True Love.

(01:06:39):
And I was super confused. I was like, why are
you giving me a book called True Love? I've talked
to you like three times on the phone. I just
was so confused and I knew, like no shade, but
I'm like, I knew he like black people. I was like,
is he trying to holler? Like I don't know what
was going on?

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
And actually, funny enough, last night we had an event
and people were saying the first time they met him,
they thought they were going on a date. And that's
the same experience I had. I was like, is this
man taking me on a date? Long story short. While
we're sitting there, he says, I'm working on this film
and it's about Martin Luther King Junior and President Obama
in the game of basketball. And you're the only person
in the world that's ever done all of those shops.
You're the only person who has worked for President Obama

(01:07:17):
who has done the social impact work with the NBA.
You know, I'm the only one. And so that is
first of all, that's just like, you know, to have
someone just outwardly say it to you to be seen
and that's what he's known for. He's like, you know,
we've done the research, like it's literally you and he's right,
And so just holding space for myself for that, I

(01:07:37):
was like, Wow, you know, that's pretty cool. And he said, well,
you know, we have this project and I'm thinking maybe
he's going to ask for my opinion, and he was like,
I would love to have you join the team, not
just as a person to give feedback, but like as
a producer. And I was like, oh, well, funny enough.
That has always been something on my list of goals.
I've produced podcasts, I've produced you know, commercials for the

(01:07:59):
Obama campaign, Jay Z and others. But I knew there
was something in me that said I want to tell
stories in a bigger way. So I said, this is
a personal goal of mine. So you know, I know
it's a documentary. As folks know who are in the industry,
documentaries don't really make money. So it wasn't coming from
the intention of that. It was coming from the intention
that I knew that God was giving me an opportunity
to do something that I didn't have to chase and fight.

(01:08:21):
You know, when I mentioned going through this phase of
my life where I just want to be in this
space of receiving, I was able to receive how he
spoke of me. I was able to receive the opportunity
to be involved in something that I didn't even know
if it was going to be a job or create
financial game for myself, but I knew that it was
something that was a goal of mine that I knew
that God was placing me in a position to do.

(01:08:42):
And so I met Glencino, who was a director, and
Jesse Williams, who's a producer, and so you know, immediately
we are so aligned in who we are as people. Unfortunately,
Michael was tragically murdered a few days after Thanksgiving by
a deranged woman, and he never saw He never got
to sound dance, and so I'm sorry. It was the

(01:09:03):
most terrific thing to have someone who leads with so
much love, who brought me into a project, and to
lose him. He had gone on vacation, you know, with
his fiance, and I was talking to him like the
day before, and you know, he's just the most amazing person,
and so he didn't join a meeting, and you know,
you're like talking shit to somebody like how are you
not joining the meeting? Like where are you? So I
ended up calling him and his mother answered the phone

(01:09:25):
and was like he had been murdered. Oh my god.
So the strength of a mother, his mother is just
the strongest. She's just so amazing, and so all of
that happened, you know, so quickly, and of course naturally
we're like, we can't do this film like this was November.
I'm like, we can't, we can't like continue, you know,
and if it wasn't for Glenncino, the director, and other

(01:09:46):
folks on the team in Michael's family, they're like, this
would have been his first and last film. We have to, like,
we have to do this right. And so I wanted
to share that because I think it's you know, when
we talk about grief and holding space and doing all
these different things we had to deal with and then
still find the way, still have their will to yeah,
to move it forward, and so there's it's so much

(01:10:07):
deeper than even what it looks like on the surface.
But the story itself is the untold story of doctor
King playing basketball to build community. And then we tell
some untold stories around President Obama that people don't know.
And when you think about it, you know, the time
that we're in now with education and textbooks and people
erasing our history, this is actually history no one knew.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
We have doctor Bernice King, his daughter who's an ep
on the film, and her first response was, thank you
so much for showing the side of my father. Ah.
And so you know, like there's so to be able
to show that Doctor King did not go into Selmon's
air by follow me at March. No, that's not how
it works. He sent Ambassador Andrew Young and his crew
and said, go build community, go to the basketball court,

(01:10:47):
meet people where they are. And so for us to
be able to tell a story that is so aligned
with where we are today, go meet people where they are. Like,
everybody has different views and perspectives, but if you look
at yourselves as part of a team, then you're going
to hopefully make the best choices that are for the
best interests of the team. And so that's what doctor
King did, That's what Obama did. And so we have
Jamel Hill narrating. We have Jerry West's final interview before

(01:11:09):
he passed away, talking about what it's like to only
be around black people for the first time as a
basketball player and the empathy he developed seeing the injustices
that were happening with his teammates. And so we're able
to tell this story that you know, we premiered at
Sun Dance and you know, are able to you know,
we just got a special recognition at the Hampton's Film Festival.
We won Cleveland Film Festival. But the most exciting, unexpected

(01:11:30):
thing was that Walt Disney, you know, Anscape, which is
the Blackland Media Company part of Walt Disney. They bought
the film and you know, Jason Adou and his team
not just saw the potential and what it could do
for the country, but they saw the potential in us
as filmmakers. And so now I'm able to proudly say
I'm a producer, I'm a movie producer, and that amazing
working relationship with Glenn and Jesse and others. I'm now

(01:11:52):
a partner in Visibility Media. So we tell stories and
have other stories and the works that are going to
break barriers and talk about race and talk about women
and you know, again just uncover the things that we
just don't know, that we need to know. And it's
a scary time. It's a scary time to be talking
about these things. But we're ten toes down knowing that
this is our mission to bring stories to life. And
it's family friendly, so like kids can watch it and

(01:12:14):
it's premiering January nineteenth, on Hulu and Hulu and Disney Plus,
so we're like really on TV. But everything about it
has been the most beautiful experience. But it's also been
a lesson to me and that you know, to say
yes when opportunities come, and that my life's work has
culminated in something that was on my vision board. Yeah.

(01:12:34):
Wow's exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
It's so exciting, and it's just everything that you're sharing.
It's such a beautiful roadmap to purpose, you know. And
I think something so cool is like, as we've moved
through this conversation, being able to touch on just all
the layers of a purpose driven life. Also the fact that,
like you're going to be doing you could be doing

(01:12:59):
so many different things that you think make no sense together,
and you could be grappling with identity inside and being
like but I'm this, but I'm also this, but I
want to be this, and but how.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
Does it all make sense?

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
And then it's like literally and then this phone call
comes and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Like, hey, I need exactly you.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
You're the only one because.

Speaker 2 (01:13:20):
You've been this, this, this.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
None of those things make sense, but that's what this
is about.

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
Like it's just like.

Speaker 3 (01:13:30):
God is such a master of creation, like.

Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
It is just so.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
Powerful and also fun. I hope everyone's really hearing the
fun in this, like how much fun can also be present,
you know, and how you can even release the stress
of thinking that you don't make sense right and just saying, God,
show me how it all makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
Oh girl, when I tell you the level of inner
piece I feel, I've never felt this sense of I'm
so regulated, Like even in all the conversation we just
had and all the struggles, I feel like I'm exactly
where I need to be. Yeah, and that feeling right there.
You can't there's no price tag you can put on that.
And the people that I'm working with I love and
the way that I'm seen, and just in general just

(01:14:10):
being free. You talk about freedom, I feel so free.
I feel like I can do whatever I want to do.
Coakana by tell me shit, and it's amazing, you know,
Like I really I feel like I'm like literally, I'm like,
I'm a filmmaker, like it is. It is so cool.
And then I don't know what's next, right because to
your point, all the connectivities and the pathways and it's
all it doesn't have to make sense in the moment

(01:14:31):
for anyone. Just know that the way that God is
looking at how you're living your life, He's going to
work it out. He's going to give you the pavers
and then you just have to step on him and
then take the next step and take the next step.
And I feel like in this journey, like I said yes,
and I was like, okay, this is I've never done
this in this way, but I trust the people I'm
working with and like and teach me something. You know,

(01:14:52):
when I'm sure you feel this way too, when you're
an entrepreneur and when you're leading so many people, I
want to be I don't want to be the smartest
person in the room. Yeah, I want to learn. I
want to please. Yes, I'm like please, like, so I'm
learning so much and that has been what's your point
about having fun? Like this is fun because I you know,
I know so much about the things where I'm an expert,

(01:15:12):
but like this area has been so much fun to
unpack and uncover and the people I'm meeting has been
amazing and I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
Ah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
I am just like girl, I'm on the edge.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
Must seat can't be all the things.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
And the movie again, I just can't overstate it's such
a special movie.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
Everybody has to watch it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
It was so fun to watch and also really inspiring because,
like to the way you were describing it, this this
really creative understanding of like how to cultivate like community,
you know, and and in such non traditional ways you know,
And it all eventually makes sense because it feeds the

(01:15:51):
greater work of you know, what we need from everyone
in the moments that we need it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:57):
Yeah, this is just so I'll say this.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
This is this is my last question before I introduce,
before I invite you to do some soul work with
the audience. As you move into this new season of
your life and your work, what is feeling most alive
in you right now?

Speaker 1 (01:16:14):
I think this idea that I'm a creative because I
feel like, you know, I've been again a community builder
for so long and it's been about bringing people together.
This season of being a producer and seeing what it's
like to storytell has unlocked a creativity in me that
isn't the title or the label I would have given
myself before. Like I knew that I was able to

(01:16:35):
see things and be a strategist and bring things to life,
but I'm like, I want to paint. I know that
sounds like random, Like now I want out it all,
you know, I'm like, I want to paint. I want
to go and you know, be in spaces where I'm
around other creatives, and I feel like there's something in
me that's going to come out again. I don't know
what it is, yeah, but I feel like there's something
that is has been sparked in me that's going to

(01:16:57):
really surprise myself. And so that may makes me feel
really really alive. And the other thing I would say is,
and I know we talk about this as it relates
to bringing people together, like the way I look at
retreating and you have a whole entire section in your
book that I just re listened to around retreats, and like,
I feel like that makes me feel alive. This idea
to create space for myself and others where where we

(01:17:20):
can just be and just the idea of being able
to be more aligned with that. I was talking to
my girlfriend the other day and we were talking about
travel and like, I've been traveling so much for work,
I haven't been traveling for self lately, and so just
this idea of how I can do more of that,
it gets me excited, like I haven't done it yet,
but I'm like, I'm feeling alive by the idea of

(01:17:41):
creativity and even Amani does these like creative sabbaticals. I'm
intrigued by that. And so the aliveness in me is
a curiosity, like I'm really really curious around this stage
in my life. Yeah, ah, you had a special place
to be in Oh yeah, that is so beautiful. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
I invite you now to share some soul work. So
this is our integration piece after everything we've kind of
listened to. We've been moving through so many themes and
this episode around purpose and service and community and the
peaks and the valleys. If there is a practice of
some sort soul work that everyone can take with them

(01:18:21):
and maybe work on after they finished this episode or
in the coming days. It can be a practice, it
can be a quote, it can be a prompt, but
just something to work with.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
Yeah, well, I was sharing with you earlier, but around
my birthday practices. You know, I look at my birthday
as my renewal. You know, I think about the fact
that God brought me into the world on this you know,
October twenty ninth, and that you know, the fact that
he's allowed me to live another year is I mean,
I have so much gratitude for that. So I think
a practice something that I'm doing actively right now is

(01:18:53):
this idea to look back at the past year and
what are the things that you wanted to accomplish that
you didn't not from a space judgment, but from a
space of just understanding why, And then do those things
still matter to you? And they may not right and
if they don't, then you can leave them by by
the wayside and no longer think about them and have
them on your mind space. Is something that you didn't do?

(01:19:15):
And the second piece of that is if there's a
why to it and if there's a solution to that why.
And I know for myself, I was just talking about
retreat so it made me think of that, like I
haven't done one yet, but or one of the way
that I want to. And I think it's because this
idea of having to plan an event by myself that
I can enjoy seems overwhelming, but I still want to
do it, so like that's a why that I can
can combat. The other thing I would say is you know,

(01:19:37):
what do you want to learn? I know we are
always striving to be students of things, and sometimes that
can be overwhelming, but you know, just this idea of
this thought process of what do I want to learn
this year? And for me, it's something as simple as swimming.
I know it sounds random, but I thought black people
couldn't swim and going to we were going to keep
along that that that wrong, you know, title or tag

(01:19:59):
that we gave ourselves. And so I've been joking with
my friends like everybody learned how to swim and didn't
tell me that that was like the thing you're supposed
to do. So but you know, that's just my example. Yeah, yeah,
it is my example of that's something that I want
to learn. It's not about being a student in something
more deep or learning how to be in, you know,
a class. It's something that's going to make me feel
more free because I'm connected to water. It's not that

(01:20:21):
I need to save myself if I'm in the ocean.
It's actually not that deep. It's because I feel free
connected to water, and I want to be able to
have that practice more deeply. In order to do that,
I need to learn how to swim. And it's something
that I see Denny's BOSSI actually on Instagram, I've been
following her journey of learning how to swim, and it's
since been really inspiring. And so, you know, I feel
like those or two of the things like what do

(01:20:42):
you what have you not done in the past year
that maybe you want to leave behind or pick back up?
And what do you want to learn? Oh? I love that.
That's a really great practice. I love that so much.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
Alexis feaster Ter, Thank you so much for joining usurs.

Speaker 1 (01:20:57):
I have the best time. Thank for sharing all your lists.
Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I love you.

Speaker 2 (01:21:03):
I love you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:04):
Everyone goes see this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:21:06):
It is so inspiring and good and creative and just
really interesting. Got my wheels turning. As always, thank you
so much for listening.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
To this show.

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
Please rate and review, Share this episode with a friend
who needs to hear this today, and we'll be back
next week.

Speaker 1 (01:21:24):
Now I must day.

Speaker 2 (01:21:31):
The content presented on Deeply Wells serves solely for educational
and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement
for personalized medical or mental health guidance, and does not
constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable
to consult with your healthcare provider or health team. For

(01:21:52):
any specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect
with me on social at Debbie Brown, Twitter and Instagram,
or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.
And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,
don't Forget, Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this
episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of

(01:22:14):
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network.

Speaker 3 (01:22:16):
It's produced by Jacqueis.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
Thomas, Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The Beautiful Soundbath
You Heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from Crystal Cadence. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app or wherever
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Host

Devi Brown

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