May 25, 2023 • 54 mins
Resmaa Menakem returns to the Deeply Well podcast and we are honored to dive into a deeper conversation about expansion and relationships. He returns with a new book, “Monsters in Love” which challenges the idea that conflict between partners is unhealthy or something to avoid. Instead, it encourages both people to stand by what they need and who they are—but to do so with compassion rather than competitiveness or vengefulness. Menakem offers scenarios and his insight on how each person in a relationship can grow not in spite of a conflict but because of it…
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:22):
Take a deep breath in through your nose. Else hold
it now, release slowly again deep inhale, hold release, repeating
(00:56):
internally to yourself as you connect my voice. I am deeply,
deeply well. I am deeply deep well. I am deeply wow.
(01:24):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well. I'm your host, Debbie Brown, and
as always, we are diving into the crevices in service
to expansion this episode. I am so excited to bring
(01:50):
back to the show one of by far the most
cult classic favorite episodes. The amount of messages got about
the episode that I did last season with this amazing
man was just.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Through the roof.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
People are asking for part ten, so we'll see what
we can do. We're definitely on the second. Today I
am joined by none other than Healer, best selling author,
master coach, or organizational strategist. Healer again, I have to say,
a long time therapist and a licensed clinical social worker
who specializes in the healing of trauma. He's also the
(02:29):
founder of the Cultural Somatics Institute, a cultural trauma navigator,
and a communal.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Provocateur and coach.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Last time Resmo was here, we spoke about one of
his best selling books, My Grandmother's Hands, which radically changed
the world of healing to this approach that he developed
over many, many decades. He then led the charge really
speaking to the divide that we've been experiencing in America
with the Quaking of America. And now he is back
(02:58):
with another book to fuel us and feed us in
this very paradigm shifting moment of human history. Monsters in Love,
Welcome to the show. Resmaminequan having you know, it's so interesting.
So you're a healer, I'm a healer. Anytime we share space,
instant regulation, don't have to do anything. The vibrational energy
(03:21):
is just you've said it. You're centered, grounded. Monsters in Love,
this is a big book I had the pleasure of
at the time of recording. Now last night you and
I were in community and I was able to do
a Q and A with you on your new book
(03:43):
with your community, and it was absolutely mind blowing the
way that you were diving into what feels like a
completely new approach for so many people and understanding love,
understanding their role in love and in relationship, and especially
(04:05):
in speaking to relationship as a tool of healing and transformation.
It's intended use the way God designed it. What led
you to say, now is the time to speak to
this piece of the healing puzzle.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So so Muster's in Love is actually kind of like
a remake, right, so I had So my second book
was a book called Rock the Boat. Rocked the Boat
was originally with another publisher. My publisher went out of business.
(04:44):
I got my rights back, right, and between the time
I first wrote that book and now, I've evolved, I've grown,
just in just in terms of as a as a therapist,
as a healer, as somebody who works with other bodies.
I'm not the same dude I was when I wrote it, right,
(05:04):
And so when I got the rights back, I just
put it to the side. And as I started to
go back and read it again, there were parts that
now I'm like, oh, I want to change that. I'm
not the same person. I'm not the same therapist, I'm
not the same healer. Eye in terms of what happens
(05:29):
in relationships is different. It's more mature now. And so
Monsters in Love was really about how I began to
integrate some of my own learning, some of my own
emergence and so I think why it's relevant now is
I actually think because of all of the things that
(05:51):
I've done before, it led me up to a place
to where I said, oh, now I can work with
the couple's work the same way I work with communal work,
going to do the couple's work the same way I
do organizational work. I can do the couple's work now.
And it took me years to get to that place.
And so that's why I think Masters in Love is
so important now is because this idea of understanding historical, intergenerational,
(06:19):
persistent institutional race, sex, sexuality, like all of those pieces,
I think we're at a place now where we maybe
possibly can hold it.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
M You know what's so.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
It's just so divine. I think that the placements of
your books because I even am recognizing how your work
is building tolerance.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Yeah everything, Yeah, yeah, it's it's the attempt is to
get us practiced, right.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I use this analogy like if if I called you
one day and I said, hey, Debbie, I'm thinking about
running a marathon and you've been my sister, you go,
oh that's cool, Yeah, that's really cool. You know, anything
I can do to support you? Da da da dah,
and we would go back and forth, and then you
might get the bright idea to ask me a question. Right.
(07:16):
You might say, hey, when do you think do you
have an idea in your mind when you're thinking about
running this marathon? And if I looked at you and
I said I'm thinking about running it tomorrow, right, You'd go, Okay,
I got to ask another question now, right. And if
you say, well, have you been running?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Right?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Have you been watching what you eat? Have you run
a block? First? And if I looked at you in
all seriousness and I said no, but I read a
book on it, right, No, but I talked to a
dude who ran, right, you'd get concerned about me now.
Right now you would have to reality test with me,
(07:58):
because what you know is is that I'm about to
put my body through something that I am unprepared to
contend with. And relationships are the same thing we put
We are unprepared to deal with the charge of what
it means when I say I choose you, right, And
(08:18):
we all think, just because we choose a person, we're
ready for the charge. We're ready for the weight, we're
ready for the speed, we're ready for the texture, and
we are not, and so Musters in Love is really
my attempt for us to begin to say, slow it down,
let's start doing the things that get us conditioned so
(08:38):
we can hold what is about to come from an
historical place, from an intergenerational place, from a persistent, persistent
institutional place, and then our own personal lived experiences.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yes, yes, yes, Okay, let's start at the top, because
there this book.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
It's a phenomenal book. And I really my deepest desire
for anyone tapping into the show today and resonating with
our voices and hearing us is to help you create
a new understanding of the way relationship works in your
unique life, based on who you are and your experiences,
(09:18):
so that you can alleviate suffering and find more joy
in them and use them as the tools they're actually
designed to be. So I want to start at the
top with you talk to me about the intended evolution
of relationship, because this is a piece that we have
all always gotten wrong, and society has really primed us
(09:39):
for this right, like even back to the Disney movie day. Absolutely,
when we're wearing those traditional roles of provider and support
or however, you know, they've showed up for you and
your life or and your culture. But there is always
this blueprint that I would say never actually feels authentic
to anyone. And it's based on timetables that are so
(10:00):
simple and don't actually have like a sacred weight. Yeah,
it's like meet, fall in love, have sex somewhere in
the midst of all that, and get engaged, get married,
have a child, retire and then you know, and it's like, yeah, okay,
and what about the individuals doing those things?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So if you would share with us, what is really.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
The intended evolution and even purpose for intimate relationship?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Yeah, So one of the things that happens is that
we have all been conditioned by our understanding of relationship,
either through our caregivers, through the messages that we receive
on TV in movies. What would our friends say to
us about what the correct way is to do things
(10:48):
and be things right? And ends up happening? Is is
that we miss what actually we're so conditioned that if
I meet somebody and I have butterflies in my stomach,
and if I meet somebody and I have this like
magical thing that happens between you know, happens between us,
and I know this is the person. We have been
(11:10):
conditioned to believe that that is what should be from
now on. Yes, yes, right, And like I said last night,
the only purpose of that is to draw you together.
The only purpose of that of those particular pieces is
to present like when you're when you're when you first
get together, you're the only thing you're really sharing is
(11:34):
commonalities and things that you both agree to. Right, it's
serving its purpose. But then there's another purpose that happens,
and that's beginning to highlight and show the things that
you don't agree with. And that's when we think something
is going wrong. That's when we think that our partner
(11:55):
is not the right person for us. That's when we
start thinking communication and compatibility issues are coming up. And
what I'm saying is is if we could begin to
slow it down and see that there is a purpose,
a function for expressing your differences and how you move
(12:18):
in the world differently and understand the world, there is
a function of it. It is not the problem. There
is a function of it. And we as particularly here
in America, we haven't inquired or interrogated what the function
of that is. The function of it is. It is
designed to make you begin to work with the energy
(12:44):
around being connected to somebody that's important to you, that
matters to you, and maintaining a clear sense of yourself
while you're doing it, and being able to soothe your
own hurts and your pains while you're doing it. It
is not either for them to turn themselves over to
you or for you to turn yourself over to them, right,
(13:06):
and that and that, that kind of disney conditioning is
like turn yourself over. Yeah, they kiss you and you
wake up from a sleep, and now you're the princess, right,
or now you're the prince and you say right. And
we all go into relationships with some rem and it
doesn't matter if I'm talking about heterosexual relationships, homosexual relationships,
(13:31):
or any other relationship where there's two people, right, it
doesn't matter. We all have been conditioned by it, and
we have not interrogated interrogated, So it always shows up
as a bottleneck, as a gridla and our only conditioning
in terms of like psychology and marriage therapy and all
(13:52):
that different type of stuff revolves around well, let's just
get find out the problem, alleviate the problem, and fix
the problem. And what's really going on is that there
is a piece in you that's asking you to grow
to hell up right, to grow up in ways that
(14:12):
you have been able because you haven't been with somebody,
you've been able to get to that line and then
figure out a way around it. Right. And what that
sufferings edge does when you choose another person, what the
sufferings edge does is the suffering. He says, Look, you
can find a way around it. You can bring another
person in, you can act like us, all their problem,
(14:34):
you can do all of that. And this particular time,
let's not do that. Let's not blow all of this
through our partner. Let's actually sit with this and not
take it all on ourselves, but actually work with the
energy of what is beckoning me. But before I met
(14:56):
this person, what is the thing, what is the purpose
that's tied to my integrity? The gnawing that's happening for
me right now? I always tell people the gnawing is health.
The gnawing is not health. And what we've been taught
is to kill the gnawing or get rid of the gnawing,
(15:16):
and not metabolize the energy that's creating the gnawing.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Okay, sit there, please, please, please, please please, This gives
me chills because this is part of the reason I
(15:41):
believe bodies of culture and those that have experienced complex
trauma of all backgrounds come on. The fight is to
come into your body, often for the first time, the
first time.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
That is the biggest, the hardest, the most important piece
of the puzzle for healing. You have to be present
for your life. You have to be present inside this
vessel that's been designed to hold your soul. So very
often in some of our communities, there is this charge
that we don't have language for around all kinds of things.
(16:24):
When anger comes up, when love comes up, when desire
comes up. It's a feeling that is so foreign because
many of us are robbed of the opportunity to feel,
to know, how to learn how so you are just
having these experiences inside that you don't know how to
talk about, You don't know what their intended purpose is,
and so it's so overwhelming and it makes you completely
(16:48):
jump out of yourself, very often detached down all the
things that keep us from ourselves and our end one another.
That's the baseline, right So as you're speaking to these
right like even that feeling of desire that can first
come up and for some it can be the feeling
of oh my god, this is the one right, and
(17:08):
b others it's just that lustful feeling, passionate feeling.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Or terror.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
M Okay, can you talk about this piece and why
In your first book you really masterfully unpack the understanding
of needing to build tolerance to receive good things, and
that exists in our loving relationships too.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So think about it like this, sibling. Many of us
come from bodies that were brutalized for hundreds upon hundreds
upon hundreds of years, like legally brutalized. Right, those nervous
(17:53):
systems got shaped around the brutalization. Okay, Wow, it is
relatively new occurrence, right, that me and you could be
sitting here doing what we're doing and have some sense
of sovereignty over our own bodies. For most of me
and your history, the white body had full and unfettered
(18:16):
access to our bodies. Wow, full and unfettered. I mean
every idea, every office, there was no protection. So that charge.
(18:37):
We had to organize our communities around that charge. We
had to organize our nervous systems around that charge. So
when we get into a relationship with somebody, that charge
presents itself, and it can look like terror, It can
look like horror. It can look like rejection, it can
(19:01):
look like anxiety, it can look like depression. That's because
it's been decontextualized, and we internalize it as a personal defect,
as opposed to as opposed to it being structural and philosophical.
Oh my god. So when we as black bodies come
into contact with each other, even if I love you
(19:22):
the wh the historical charge also floods into the room
without context and without understanding, and without moorings to navigate it.
And so part of our work is to slow it
down enough to allow the energy to condition us. Many times,
(19:46):
what we do is we gorge on it rather than
nibble on it. We want it all, but we can't
tolerate it, so we break apart. So we push away
at the same time that we're saying, come come closer.
Yeah right, yeah, that has to be that. That's because
(20:07):
what happened to us did not happen to us individually.
It happened to us communally. So only developing a communal
only developing an individual response to a communal horror is inadequate.
Part of the reason why many of us can't be
in relationships or have a very difficult time in relationships.
(20:29):
Is because we've been seeing this whole process as an
individual endeavor as opposed to what happened to our peoples
and how our people's bodies got organized around the brutality
and the feralness. And so what I try and help
our people do sys is first, slow it down, orient
(20:51):
move your bodies, touch your body. Watch. Like one of
the practices that I have in h in my grandmother's
hands is just get in front of a mirror. I
can't tell you how many times people say they skip
(21:12):
over that practice. Just take your clothes off and stand
in front of a mirror, and notice how long you
can stand there. Now, sometimes you could You just look
and you pack up. There's nothing going wrong, there's too much.
You notice, there's too much charge, walk away, then come
back again. This is the conditioning. It'd be the same
(21:33):
way if I was trying to show you how to
shoot a jump shot or show you how to throw
a punch. Right, you can't throw one punch and you're conditioned.
You don't understand nuance yet, right, And for our people,
we've been conditioned that if you choose somebody you're already conditioned.
You're not conditioned. And so when all of this charge
and waiting texture comes into the room with somebody that
(21:56):
you love, you don't know what to do with it.
Even if it's feel even if you have the experience
that this is a good thing, it's also vulnerable. It's
a good thing, it's also terrifying. And we haven't interrogated
that individually in a couple or communality.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Deeply.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Wow, can you expand on the terror of vulnerability and
how that keeps us from love, from our own love,
and from connection with someone you really want to have
love with.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
That's right. So, so when you're out here just running
wild and ripping wild, and you you know, you just
you know what I mean doing right. When you're out
(22:58):
here doing that, there's a lot of choices. You got
a lot of choices, a lot of moves you can make.
Right the moment you say I choose you, it shifts
and we all know it. People say it all the
time before we got married, it was cool. As soon
(23:21):
as we moved in together, they lost their mind.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
If that ain't the exact phrase that you hear.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Constantly, constantly, right, And it's because The reason why we
say that is because we haven't interrogated and slow down
enough to really unpack what that means. When we say that,
we make it a particular personal thing, like she lost
her mind, she lost their mind, they lost their minds. Right, yes,
but there's actually a function in that. Right the moment,
(23:53):
when I'm out here wiling and ripping and running and
by myself, I have infinite choices and moves that I
can make. There is nobody who is who has more
say so in control over my life than me. There
(24:16):
is no influence that I have to negotiate. Right but
the moment I say, baby, let's move in together, at
that exact moment, my choices become finite. When my choices
become finite, I get pushed up against my development in
that exact moment, because I never had to get pushed
(24:40):
when I was doing, when I was by myself or
just dating. The moment I say let's move intogether, my
choices become finite. More of what I do and don't
do revolves around what you do and don't want to do.
My vulner immediately come to my vulnerability at that moment,
(25:03):
And soon as you come to your vulnerability. At that moment,
you try and figure out a way to lessen the vulnerability.
And many times I say this one thing I've said
a lot many times. People have affairs and relationships not
(25:24):
because the partner is not important. It is because the
partner is too important for them to actually show themselves too. Okay,
it's really easy to go find somebody in the club
and tell them all of the things I will that
look like, all of the intimate things and all of
(25:46):
the secrets and all that stuff. But that person that's
laying there on the pillow with me, they are too
important for me to let them see these parts of me.
So I can. I'll do it with somebody I'll pick
up in the club or pick up at church, or
pick up right but this person because it matters to
(26:06):
me what happens to their eyes when I say, hey,
I really want to do this thing. If I can't
maintain a clear sense of myself when I look in
your eyes, I'll start to shave it and move it
around and not say it and not express it because
the look of disgust in your face I can't tolerate.
(26:31):
And it seems like that's a problem for you. But
it's actually a problem for me. Am I going to
grow parts of myself up? Am I going to develop
the ability to more myself? So even with you, I
can let you see me behind my eyeballs and hold
on to myself at the same time. Most people can't
(26:52):
do that when they say I choose you. I can
do it with somebody in the club, but not you,
because it actually matters when I see discussed. It actually
matters when you say, I ain't doing that's nasty. If
I can't maintain a clear sense in myself, then I'm
going to either make you give yourself up in order
(27:13):
for me to feel better, or I'm going to give
myself up in order for me to feel better and
nothing's going wrong when that happens. That's the function it
forces you up against. Are you going to be clean
about this? Or are you going to be dirty about this?
That's it. Adults don't get a choice between pain and
(27:36):
no pain. The choice. Adults get a choice between am
I going to do this clean? Am I going to
do this dirty? The choice the other choice of possibly
not having as much pain that happens after you make
this one. M Wow, does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
This is c Yeah, it makes deep sense.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
And I think you know anyone listening because that hits
on a lot for a lot of people. And that piece,
you know, part of the way we were just speaking
to it was a little more sexual in nature, But
that is that vulnerability piece is with everything, with everything,
with absolutely the function of every kind of relationship, not
(28:20):
just a coupling or romantic partnership right here.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
So there are particular things in relationships that we say
we let's just agree to disagree that we actually can't
agree to disagree about. Oh tell me, right, you can't
agree to disagree to have half a baby. Like if
somebody is in a relationship and you're in relationship with
somebody and you want to have a baby and your
(28:47):
partner doesn't, there is no agree to disagree with that. Yeah,
you were going to grind, You are going to fight
because it is about importance. Is this important to you?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Read it?
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Disagree is usually a way to get around the most
ardent issue. That mean that that's about usually people's integrity.
I am and I want these particular things. You want
these particular things, and they're juxtaposed to each other. We
can't agree to disagree about that. Yeah, we're gonna have
to rub and grind and fight and then see what
(29:22):
emerges from that. And people don't want to do that.
They want to come into a therapist and pay the
therapist all that money for them to figure out a
figure out the to get a solution for the problem.
There is no solution. There's only emergence. Grow up, and
you keep not wanting to grow up. This is a
(29:45):
conundrum that is not to be fixed. Does that make
sense deeply?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
What I'm hearing especially is you know part of the
reason there's no solution and there's nothing to be fixed
is because there is something that must be created, and
that creation will either be too deciding that there will
be a shared interest, a shared desire that they feed
over time over time, and or we are going into
(30:15):
separate ways and now it's time to create our individual paths.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
And it becomes clear when you do it cleanly as
opposed to going around it.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Can can we speak on the importance of integrity? Can
you give?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Because you know, I think something within a lot of
our communities is we have different definitions than perhaps other people.
We've learned words, applied uses to words in different ways. Right,
So if you would share your definition of integrity and
how that operates in relationship.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Integrity is that thing that's literally tied to creation and purpose.
Integrity is that thing that when you're by yourself, that
gnaws that you, just says, this could be different, and
you're not yes, in alignment with what could be right.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Not in alignment with what could.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Be Integrity is that piece that says, there's something I'm
tied to, something other than just what I want. I'm
tied to creation itself. It gnaws that you. It's not
butterflies on your nose, right, It's not like love and rainbows.
(31:26):
It is the thing that says, are you going to
live into the person you want to be and also
be connected to other human beings that are important to you.
Now that might not You may get the answer coming
from the other side, as the other side where the
person says, I don't want to do this with you anymore. Right,
(31:52):
But though that decision can come from integrity or fear.
And many times we haven't been conditioned in hone to
know what the integrity piece, how that sense it's in
our body, how we notice it. Yeah, we know the
fear piece. We know what that terror is like. And
(32:13):
what I'm trying to get people to understand is that
there's a resource here. There's another resource that will allow
us to work with it differently, but it has to
be cultivated.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
It has to be cultivated the way that I experience integrity.
It's my north star. So integrity for me is like
that internal GPS.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
That's exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I have a deep commitment to my integrity. So it's like,
even if it's something I really want, that feeling comes in,
it doesn't matter, have to follow the internal guidance.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
And a lot of people and this is why I
talk about conditioning and tempering, like the running of the marathon,
A lot of people think that this is something that
does not have to be cultivated. Yeah, we think we
should have it right, and there is a piece that's
tied to creation that we have, but a lot of
us haven't cultivated our embodied sense of it. Yes right, yes,
(33:09):
so so so would look like we look sometimes what
looks like integ what looks like integrity is really intractability. Right,
Is that I'm that fast? Right? People mistake those types
of things sometimes as integrity when it's really another way
(33:32):
around things sometimes, and that's this is the this is
the interrogation pieces, right, and so a lot of my
work is really about slowing down to be to give
yourself enough time to interrogate things.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to speak about practices.
One of the things that we talked about last night
as we were kind of diving into your booking and
the Q and A was around not when you're when
(34:05):
you're in a space like this as a couple, perhaps
right when you are a monster in love, it's not
about creating more shared experiences as a couple, right, Can
you please talk about this piece?
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yea, so so so I think about it like, you know,
when when we get into a relationship with somebody and
the quote unquote too shall become one right type of
thing and we're living our lives right, and you know
(34:43):
this is this is one of the problems that I
have when people say my better half, right, as if
it's as if it's as if you were half and
the other person made you whole the moment that you have,
the moment you start working with that concept. If somebody's
happy you, they get so in everything, right, It is
(35:04):
a it is it is it is, it is, it is.
It is a we purposely put ourselves in vulnerable positions, right,
because we be conditioned to do so. This idea of
half and this idea of the two shell become one,
puts us in a position to where our partners are are.
(35:27):
It's what I call reflected sense of self, right, reflected
sense of self, And this is from one of my mentors,
doctor Davis Narsha. Reflected sense of self is that when
I look at you, my sense of who I am
is reflected in your eyes back to me. So if
you love me, I'm lovable. If you're disappointed at me,
(35:50):
I'm disappointing. Right, And a lot of us have those
types of relationship with people, and so we don't have
any sense of our own sense of self. There is
my sense is of other, a other sense of self
as opposed to my own sense of self myself. Right,
(36:13):
it's both right. It matters to me what you think
about me, but it matters to me what I think
about me. Right, not letting go of you in order
to be with me, I can hold both. That's the
conditioning pieces, right, and so for me a lot of
times what happens in relationships is these concepts around being
(36:34):
in or your better half, your partner, being your better
half pushes us into gridlocks. Right. That could be emergent,
could help us grow up, but a lot of times
just keep us at each other's throat, right, because you
matter too much? Right, And when I say that, I'm
(36:55):
not saying I'm trying to that you shouldn't matter to me.
Saying many times you're mattering supersedes MyD mattering.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Deeply.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Well, Resma and I are talking really large concepts like
these are actually the things that we're kind of maybe
even sound casual about that we are expressing right now
are the fundamental pieces, the foundational pieces of how we
(37:31):
know love or don't, how we love or hate ourselves
throughout our lives, what we're able to have access to.
So something I really want to center for everyone listening
is the gravity of this, right, like this piece that
you just expressed, talking about the inner workings, talking about
(37:52):
the mechanisms that take place in people of how for instance,
a lot of language that is in important that we're
discussing but is sometimes misunderstood or really labeled, is the
dynamic of like a narcissistic relationship or codependent relationship. And granted,
(38:12):
if you find yourself with a narcissist, please run run fast.
And a lot of what Resma just described is what
is going on inside of that body of the narcissist
and inside of the body of what is often referred
to as the empathic person or a codependent person. And
(38:35):
so it's about really juggling and againstness of self and
trying to find an outlet forward while also not revealing
too much about oneself and being committed to not being seen.
And when you're committed to not being seen, we cause
a wreckonable harm to one another into our family systems, right,
(38:58):
and so generation because.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
It's it's such a wide view.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
This is how it happens, and so in the day
to day programming, it may not seem like that big
of a difference, right, It may just be like, oh man,
we don't never get along. Oh yeah, yeah, we're arguous. Okay,
if the kids here, Dad, you're in the thick of it.
It seems natural, it seems normal, and it seems on
par with what you're seeing in the rest of society
on television, your friends, your family. But those mechanisms that
(39:26):
seem like the smaller pieces, those are the seeds that
create generational harm. Generational trauma and keep us from being
able to love each other.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Absolutely so. So I want to be clear here just
as a therapist, that that there are a lot of
terms that we use that people don't know what the
hell are talking about. Like a lot of people are using, oh,
they're a narcissist, they are this, they are that, they're
and and really that's a diagnosedes like you know what
I mean, yeah, and and and the idea like like
(40:02):
I so this this piece around narcissism and being a narcissism,
the underlying piece like narcissism, you know, borderline, all of
these different things. You know what the root of all
of those is trauma.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Trauma.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
We don't want to talk about that. Somebody who developed
who has a narcissist person's personality. That's that is really
if you, if you peel back the edges, most people
who have a narcissistic personality have demonstrative trauma. Yeah right.
(40:38):
I'm not even talking about the historical stuff yet. Yeah,
I'm not even talking about the inner generational stuff. Yeah right.
I'm not even talking about the persistent institutional stuff yet. Personally,
many times these people have horrible trauma, Yeah right, immits
(41:00):
and brutality, right, and so I just really try and
you know, you know, sometimes you know, when you're when
you're dealing with somebody that is harming you, sometimes the
best thing that you can do for you and them
is not allow them to harm you anything.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yes, that's the choice. That's that's the choice. And so
fixing it's a removing.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
And so so so for me, rather than try and like, Okay,
you know this person is narcissistic, this person is this,
this person is you know, borderline and bipolar and all
that different type of stuff. I think I think, I
think we would be better served, especially in relationships, especially
in our communities and communities of culture. I believe that
(41:48):
we would be better served by really understanding that sometimes
you get into a relationship with somebody who you need
to not be in a relationship with, and and and
that and that usually the things that show up in
the relationship are teaching you and telling you to make moves,
(42:14):
and a lot of times you don't make the move.
That goes back to the integrity pieces, right, is you
know there there. I've worked with clients sometimes and they'll
come in and they'll say things like I keep picking
the wrong person. Help me pick better people. And the
thing I always say is the common denominator in this
(42:37):
whole piece is you. What aren't you inquiring into? Right?
I'm not saying that for you to try and find
what the defect is. I'm saying there's a particular patterning
that keeps showing up in terms of the people that
you're bringing into your life. If you refuse to inquire
(43:02):
into that, and you keep saying it's them them them
them them them them, you're going to be doing this
for the next forty years. Remember what I said yesterday
about many times one of the reasons why people can't
unhook from things is because they're coming at it from
their virtue. Yeah, that virtue piece like I'm a good dude,
(43:25):
I'm a good person, high, I'm high value. Yah.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, that's the new one that want to say.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
Everybody, I'm high value. I'm right. The problem is that
virtues always have limitations, and the limitations usually show up
when you choose another person. Limitations don't usually show up
when you're by yourself.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Why do limitations show up right when you're with the person.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Because your choices become finite the moment that you choose
another person, you become vulnerable, and if you have it
being able to ma tabolize the energy of vulnerability, you
begin to make the moves to try and lessen the vulnerability,
right and so and so I'm a high value. It's
(44:14):
cool when I'm by myself, yeah, in theory, but when
when I'm dating another guy and that value and then
I'm getting reflected sense of self and I'm I'm high
value and the person's looking at me is like, you're
a mean person. Yeah, you're mean. I'm high value though
(44:38):
your mean as hell, Like like I try and come
and touch you, and you like, you're like you push
me away, But I'm high value. You're mean. That's the
that's because because you're coming at it from a virtue.
And that's not to say you should not have virtue,
but realize that your virtue always has a limitation attached
(45:00):
to it, and no matter which way you turn your head,
you're going you're never going to be able to see it.
What actually has to happen is that people in your
life help you take that virtue and help that limitation
go offline. So you have to contend with it. Right,
But what normally happens for people, is that the moment
that it goes offline, they say, you're making me feel
(45:22):
bad about myself, You're not a good person, you're not supportive,
you don't love me, right, and then they slowly get
it right back in the linement and then they can't
see it again.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, And what I'm hearing and what you're saying, and
this is what so many people do, and not as
a judgment, but I share you know, it's creating this
monument as your identity exactly right, like coming up with
out side.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
And that's part of the danger of.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
What this kind of last ten years, part of our
cultural narrative around making an elevator pitch for everything, right,
like having to come up with on your Instagram the
quick bio that listen sustain you know sufficiently describes who
you are and so people can get it. I do this,
and it's like you're creating this container of limitation. Sure that, really,
(46:12):
especially in relationship, can tricks any ability to have vulnerability.
I want to ask you one more question about vulnerability.
So we talked about the mechanic of the mechanism of
why you want to withdraw vulnerability in relationship when that
is catalyzed in someone. What does that look like someone
(46:37):
looking to withdraw vulnerability from the relationship, from the friendship,
from whatever the partnership.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Ishave you ever been with somebody and things are going
well and then something happens and you don't know what
the hell it is, but you have sense that sweetness
has been removed. You don't know what you know what
(47:06):
I mean? Yeah, that's the piece, it's not. That's when
you're watching people struggle with their vulnerability. The first thing
to go is not is not nice things or saying
nice things. The first thing to go that we don't
that we haven't been conditioned to pick up on vibratorially,
(47:28):
is sweetness. Think about what I'm saying. We all know it,
We all know that piece. The first thing to go
is the sweetness. Yeah, yeah, they're not the look, not
the love, not the right, the sweetness.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
There is a layer of that sweet authenticity that gets removed,
and it's not something that you can fully call out.
And so the person means, who are not to gaslight
you about it.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Because they don't know it. They have not because we
haven't been conditioned with understanding the vibration of that all
we know is that something was there that's that's now
missing and I don't even know what was there.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yes, Yes, it's hard to develop the language for.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
And that's why I say the communal pieces right that
we keep trying to figure this stuff out individually and
it's really a communal cultivation that we're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
This is so good, my brother Resma, as we close
out this, I know that's why.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
That's why everybody wants to have that apart podcast.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
We can figure it out if you would share with
the audience a piece of soul work, a practice of
digesting this conversation and making it a little more exploratory
in their lives until we need again next week.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
Absolutely. So one of the first things I want to
tell people is that this culture and this philosophy inherently
disorients us. There's a constant disorientation, and so one of
(49:23):
the things I talk about is that. And it's particularly
for black bodies. I'm talking to black bodies right now.
We have this sense that we walk around and we
don't share it with each other. It's we think it's
an individual piece, but it's actually communal. We have the
sense that that there's something getting ready to happen. The
(49:45):
next shoot is about the drop that something is happening,
is going to happen, right, and I'm gonna have to
deal with it. Right. That is a prevailing kind of
embodied sense that we have. And so on. When I'm
working with bodies of culture in my office, one of
the first kind of things that I work with them
on is orienting. Right. So like that couple that I'm
(50:10):
talking to you about, one of the first things that
I've done with them is and this is just to
set the kind of foundation piece is for them to
start orienting. And what does that mean. That means that
when you go into someplace or someplace that's familiar or
someplace that's unfamiliar, it doesn't matter. Literally stop for a
(50:32):
moment and look around the room, particularly behind you. Right.
Why is that important? Because there we have been conditioned
that something is going to happen to us and we
better not focus on that, just move forward, right. But
(50:55):
yet that energetic kind of sense is still there, So
looking behind you can be over time, you can condition
your body to begin to go, oh, there's nothing behind it.
I tell black people to do this all the time, right,
start orienting, right, let your body, because your body is
(51:18):
going to be like watch it, something's happening, watch it.
Oh you know, I don't call microaggressions. I just call
them aggressions. That's an aggression, right, it's coming, be mindful
of right. And so what I say is look behind you,
look up, look down, notice colors, notice things, and just
find the windows, the doors and the exits. Why because
(51:43):
many we come from nervous systems. Who if we stay,
we died. If we left, we died. It's the double bind.
So let your body actually see in this moment and
this time I can leave. Yes.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Yeah, And I'd love to suggest for everyone as well,
some of that beautiful mirror work. Really notice how you
feel when you see your reflection or how you try
and avoid it exactly. Yeah, there's there's real learning any
(52:24):
against That's exactly what come up. You know, if you
if you find yourself wanting to reject your own reflection,
don't judge it. Take the time that you need in
between rooking at yourself, but begin to get curious about it.
Where did that feeling come from? And how can we
(52:44):
soften it? How can we dismantle it? Resma meinikan newest
book Monsters and Love is in stores now, and of
course you can still pick up My Grandmother's Hands, The
Quaking of America, my brother.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Thank you for joining.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
Us, Love you, love you, thanks, thanks.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Thanks, all right, thank you for joining us for another
episode of Deeply Well. Take your time really connecting with
the practice is shared, really connecting with the word shared.
There are some things that may start to come up,
and as always, get curious and if it feels overwhelming,
get connected and get supported in the way that you're
(53:25):
able to have that show up in your life. Meditate,
Please connect to your daily practice and we'll be back
next week.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Thank you for.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
Joining No mistake. Connect with me on social at Debbie Brown.
That's Twitter and Instagram, or you can go to my
website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're listening to
the show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review
and subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Deeply
Well is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network.
(53:56):
It's produced by jah Queis Thomas, Samantha Timmins, Me, Debbie Brown.
The Beautiful Soundbath You Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from
Crystal Cadence. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Take a deep breath in through your nose. Else hold
it now, release slowly again deep inhale, hold release, repeating
(00:56):
internally to yourself as you connect my voice. I am deeply,
deeply well. I am deeply deep well. I am deeply wow.
(01:24):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well. I'm your host, Debbie Brown, and
as always, we are diving into the crevices in service
to expansion this episode. I am so excited to bring
(01:50):
back to the show one of by far the most
cult classic favorite episodes. The amount of messages got about
the episode that I did last season with this amazing
man was just.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Through the roof.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
People are asking for part ten, so we'll see what
we can do. We're definitely on the second. Today I
am joined by none other than Healer, best selling author,
master coach, or organizational strategist. Healer again, I have to say,
a long time therapist and a licensed clinical social worker
who specializes in the healing of trauma. He's also the
(02:29):
founder of the Cultural Somatics Institute, a cultural trauma navigator,
and a communal.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Provocateur and coach.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Last time Resmo was here, we spoke about one of
his best selling books, My Grandmother's Hands, which radically changed
the world of healing to this approach that he developed
over many, many decades. He then led the charge really
speaking to the divide that we've been experiencing in America
with the Quaking of America. And now he is back
(02:58):
with another book to fuel us and feed us in
this very paradigm shifting moment of human history. Monsters in Love,
Welcome to the show. Resmaminequan having you know, it's so interesting.
So you're a healer, I'm a healer. Anytime we share space,
instant regulation, don't have to do anything. The vibrational energy
(03:21):
is just you've said it. You're centered, grounded. Monsters in Love,
this is a big book I had the pleasure of
at the time of recording. Now last night you and
I were in community and I was able to do
a Q and A with you on your new book
(03:43):
with your community, and it was absolutely mind blowing the
way that you were diving into what feels like a
completely new approach for so many people and understanding love,
understanding their role in love and in relationship, and especially
(04:05):
in speaking to relationship as a tool of healing and transformation.
It's intended use the way God designed it. What led
you to say, now is the time to speak to
this piece of the healing puzzle.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So so Muster's in Love is actually kind of like
a remake, right, so I had So my second book
was a book called Rock the Boat. Rocked the Boat
was originally with another publisher. My publisher went out of business.
(04:44):
I got my rights back, right, and between the time
I first wrote that book and now, I've evolved, I've grown,
just in just in terms of as a as a therapist,
as a healer, as somebody who works with other bodies.
I'm not the same dude I was when I wrote it, right,
(05:04):
And so when I got the rights back, I just
put it to the side. And as I started to
go back and read it again, there were parts that
now I'm like, oh, I want to change that. I'm
not the same person. I'm not the same therapist, I'm
not the same healer. Eye in terms of what happens
(05:29):
in relationships is different. It's more mature now. And so
Monsters in Love was really about how I began to
integrate some of my own learning, some of my own
emergence and so I think why it's relevant now is
I actually think because of all of the things that
(05:51):
I've done before, it led me up to a place
to where I said, oh, now I can work with
the couple's work the same way I work with communal work,
going to do the couple's work the same way I
do organizational work. I can do the couple's work now.
And it took me years to get to that place.
And so that's why I think Masters in Love is
so important now is because this idea of understanding historical, intergenerational,
(06:19):
persistent institutional race, sex, sexuality, like all of those pieces,
I think we're at a place now where we maybe
possibly can hold it.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
M You know what's so.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
It's just so divine. I think that the placements of
your books because I even am recognizing how your work
is building tolerance.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Yeah everything, Yeah, yeah, it's it's the attempt is to
get us practiced, right.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I use this analogy like if if I called you
one day and I said, hey, Debbie, I'm thinking about
running a marathon and you've been my sister, you go,
oh that's cool, Yeah, that's really cool. You know, anything
I can do to support you? Da da da dah,
and we would go back and forth, and then you
might get the bright idea to ask me a question. Right.
(07:16):
You might say, hey, when do you think do you
have an idea in your mind when you're thinking about
running this marathon? And if I looked at you and
I said I'm thinking about running it tomorrow, right, You'd go, Okay,
I got to ask another question now, right. And if
you say, well, have you been running?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Right?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Have you been watching what you eat? Have you run
a block? First? And if I looked at you in
all seriousness and I said no, but I read a
book on it, right, No, but I talked to a
dude who ran, right, you'd get concerned about me now.
Right now you would have to reality test with me,
(07:58):
because what you know is is that I'm about to
put my body through something that I am unprepared to
contend with. And relationships are the same thing we put
We are unprepared to deal with the charge of what
it means when I say I choose you, right, And
(08:18):
we all think, just because we choose a person, we're
ready for the charge. We're ready for the weight, we're
ready for the speed, we're ready for the texture, and
we are not, and so Musters in Love is really
my attempt for us to begin to say, slow it down,
let's start doing the things that get us conditioned so
(08:38):
we can hold what is about to come from an
historical place, from an intergenerational place, from a persistent, persistent
institutional place, and then our own personal lived experiences.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yes, yes, yes, Okay, let's start at the top, because
there this book.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
It's a phenomenal book. And I really my deepest desire
for anyone tapping into the show today and resonating with
our voices and hearing us is to help you create
a new understanding of the way relationship works in your
unique life, based on who you are and your experiences,
(09:18):
so that you can alleviate suffering and find more joy
in them and use them as the tools they're actually
designed to be. So I want to start at the
top with you talk to me about the intended evolution
of relationship, because this is a piece that we have
all always gotten wrong, and society has really primed us
(09:39):
for this right, like even back to the Disney movie day. Absolutely,
when we're wearing those traditional roles of provider and support
or however, you know, they've showed up for you and
your life or and your culture. But there is always
this blueprint that I would say never actually feels authentic
to anyone. And it's based on timetables that are so
(10:00):
simple and don't actually have like a sacred weight. Yeah,
it's like meet, fall in love, have sex somewhere in
the midst of all that, and get engaged, get married,
have a child, retire and then you know, and it's like, yeah, okay,
and what about the individuals doing those things?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So if you would share with us, what is really.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
The intended evolution and even purpose for intimate relationship?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Yeah, So one of the things that happens is that
we have all been conditioned by our understanding of relationship,
either through our caregivers, through the messages that we receive
on TV in movies. What would our friends say to
us about what the correct way is to do things
(10:48):
and be things right? And ends up happening? Is is
that we miss what actually we're so conditioned that if
I meet somebody and I have butterflies in my stomach,
and if I meet somebody and I have this like
magical thing that happens between you know, happens between us,
and I know this is the person. We have been
(11:10):
conditioned to believe that that is what should be from
now on. Yes, yes, right, And like I said last night,
the only purpose of that is to draw you together.
The only purpose of that of those particular pieces is
to present like when you're when you're when you first
get together, you're the only thing you're really sharing is
(11:34):
commonalities and things that you both agree to. Right, it's
serving its purpose. But then there's another purpose that happens,
and that's beginning to highlight and show the things that
you don't agree with. And that's when we think something
is going wrong. That's when we think that our partner
(11:55):
is not the right person for us. That's when we
start thinking communication and compatibility issues are coming up. And
what I'm saying is is if we could begin to
slow it down and see that there is a purpose,
a function for expressing your differences and how you move
(12:18):
in the world differently and understand the world, there is
a function of it. It is not the problem. There
is a function of it. And we as particularly here
in America, we haven't inquired or interrogated what the function
of that is. The function of it is. It is
designed to make you begin to work with the energy
(12:44):
around being connected to somebody that's important to you, that
matters to you, and maintaining a clear sense of yourself
while you're doing it, and being able to soothe your
own hurts and your pains while you're doing it. It
is not either for them to turn themselves over to
you or for you to turn yourself over to them, right,
(13:06):
and that and that, that kind of disney conditioning is
like turn yourself over. Yeah, they kiss you and you
wake up from a sleep, and now you're the princess, right,
or now you're the prince and you say right. And
we all go into relationships with some rem and it
doesn't matter if I'm talking about heterosexual relationships, homosexual relationships,
(13:31):
or any other relationship where there's two people, right, it
doesn't matter. We all have been conditioned by it, and
we have not interrogated interrogated, So it always shows up
as a bottleneck, as a gridla and our only conditioning
in terms of like psychology and marriage therapy and all
(13:52):
that different type of stuff revolves around well, let's just
get find out the problem, alleviate the problem, and fix
the problem. And what's really going on is that there
is a piece in you that's asking you to grow
to hell up right, to grow up in ways that
(14:12):
you have been able because you haven't been with somebody,
you've been able to get to that line and then
figure out a way around it. Right. And what that
sufferings edge does when you choose another person, what the
sufferings edge does is the suffering. He says, Look, you
can find a way around it. You can bring another
person in, you can act like us, all their problem,
(14:34):
you can do all of that. And this particular time,
let's not do that. Let's not blow all of this
through our partner. Let's actually sit with this and not
take it all on ourselves, but actually work with the
energy of what is beckoning me. But before I met
(14:56):
this person, what is the thing, what is the purpose
that's tied to my integrity? The gnawing that's happening for
me right now? I always tell people the gnawing is health.
The gnawing is not health. And what we've been taught
is to kill the gnawing or get rid of the gnawing,
(15:16):
and not metabolize the energy that's creating the gnawing.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Okay, sit there, please, please, please, please please, This gives
me chills because this is part of the reason I
(15:41):
believe bodies of culture and those that have experienced complex
trauma of all backgrounds come on. The fight is to
come into your body, often for the first time, the
first time.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
That is the biggest, the hardest, the most important piece
of the puzzle for healing. You have to be present
for your life. You have to be present inside this
vessel that's been designed to hold your soul. So very
often in some of our communities, there is this charge
that we don't have language for around all kinds of things.
(16:24):
When anger comes up, when love comes up, when desire
comes up. It's a feeling that is so foreign because
many of us are robbed of the opportunity to feel,
to know, how to learn how so you are just
having these experiences inside that you don't know how to
talk about, You don't know what their intended purpose is,
and so it's so overwhelming and it makes you completely
(16:48):
jump out of yourself, very often detached down all the
things that keep us from ourselves and our end one another.
That's the baseline, right So as you're speaking to these
right like even that feeling of desire that can first
come up and for some it can be the feeling
of oh my god, this is the one right, and
(17:08):
b others it's just that lustful feeling, passionate feeling.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Or terror.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
M Okay, can you talk about this piece and why
In your first book you really masterfully unpack the understanding
of needing to build tolerance to receive good things, and
that exists in our loving relationships too.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So think about it like this, sibling. Many of us
come from bodies that were brutalized for hundreds upon hundreds
upon hundreds of years, like legally brutalized. Right, those nervous
(17:53):
systems got shaped around the brutalization. Okay, Wow, it is
relatively new occurrence, right, that me and you could be
sitting here doing what we're doing and have some sense
of sovereignty over our own bodies. For most of me
and your history, the white body had full and unfettered
(18:16):
access to our bodies. Wow, full and unfettered. I mean
every idea, every office, there was no protection. So that charge.
(18:37):
We had to organize our communities around that charge. We
had to organize our nervous systems around that charge. So
when we get into a relationship with somebody, that charge
presents itself, and it can look like terror, It can
look like horror. It can look like rejection, it can
(19:01):
look like anxiety, it can look like depression. That's because
it's been decontextualized, and we internalize it as a personal defect,
as opposed to as opposed to it being structural and philosophical.
Oh my god. So when we as black bodies come
into contact with each other, even if I love you
(19:22):
the wh the historical charge also floods into the room
without context and without understanding, and without moorings to navigate it.
And so part of our work is to slow it
down enough to allow the energy to condition us. Many times,
(19:46):
what we do is we gorge on it rather than
nibble on it. We want it all, but we can't
tolerate it, so we break apart. So we push away
at the same time that we're saying, come come closer.
Yeah right, yeah, that has to be that. That's because
(20:07):
what happened to us did not happen to us individually.
It happened to us communally. So only developing a communal
only developing an individual response to a communal horror is inadequate.
Part of the reason why many of us can't be
in relationships or have a very difficult time in relationships.
(20:29):
Is because we've been seeing this whole process as an
individual endeavor as opposed to what happened to our peoples
and how our people's bodies got organized around the brutality
and the feralness. And so what I try and help
our people do sys is first, slow it down, orient
(20:51):
move your bodies, touch your body. Watch. Like one of
the practices that I have in h in my grandmother's
hands is just get in front of a mirror. I
can't tell you how many times people say they skip
(21:12):
over that practice. Just take your clothes off and stand
in front of a mirror, and notice how long you
can stand there. Now, sometimes you could You just look
and you pack up. There's nothing going wrong, there's too much.
You notice, there's too much charge, walk away, then come
back again. This is the conditioning. It'd be the same
(21:33):
way if I was trying to show you how to
shoot a jump shot or show you how to throw
a punch. Right, you can't throw one punch and you're conditioned.
You don't understand nuance yet, right, And for our people,
we've been conditioned that if you choose somebody you're already conditioned.
You're not conditioned. And so when all of this charge
and waiting texture comes into the room with somebody that
(21:56):
you love, you don't know what to do with it.
Even if it's feel even if you have the experience
that this is a good thing, it's also vulnerable. It's
a good thing, it's also terrifying. And we haven't interrogated
that individually in a couple or communality.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Deeply.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Wow, can you expand on the terror of vulnerability and
how that keeps us from love, from our own love,
and from connection with someone you really want to have
love with.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
That's right. So, so when you're out here just running
wild and ripping wild, and you you know, you just
you know what I mean doing right. When you're out
(22:58):
here doing that, there's a lot of choices. You got
a lot of choices, a lot of moves you can make.
Right the moment you say I choose you, it shifts
and we all know it. People say it all the
time before we got married, it was cool. As soon
(23:21):
as we moved in together, they lost their mind.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
If that ain't the exact phrase that you hear.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Constantly, constantly, right, And it's because The reason why we
say that is because we haven't interrogated and slow down
enough to really unpack what that means. When we say that,
we make it a particular personal thing, like she lost
her mind, she lost their mind, they lost their minds. Right, yes,
but there's actually a function in that. Right the moment,
(23:53):
when I'm out here wiling and ripping and running and
by myself, I have infinite choices and moves that I
can make. There is nobody who is who has more
say so in control over my life than me. There
(24:16):
is no influence that I have to negotiate. Right but
the moment I say, baby, let's move in together, at
that exact moment, my choices become finite. When my choices
become finite, I get pushed up against my development in
that exact moment, because I never had to get pushed
(24:40):
when I was doing, when I was by myself or
just dating. The moment I say let's move intogether, my
choices become finite. More of what I do and don't
do revolves around what you do and don't want to do.
My vulner immediately come to my vulnerability at that moment,
(25:03):
And soon as you come to your vulnerability. At that moment,
you try and figure out a way to lessen the vulnerability.
And many times I say this one thing I've said
a lot many times. People have affairs and relationships not
(25:24):
because the partner is not important. It is because the
partner is too important for them to actually show themselves too. Okay,
it's really easy to go find somebody in the club
and tell them all of the things I will that
look like, all of the intimate things and all of
(25:46):
the secrets and all that stuff. But that person that's
laying there on the pillow with me, they are too
important for me to let them see these parts of me.
So I can. I'll do it with somebody I'll pick
up in the club or pick up at church, or
pick up right but this person because it matters to
(26:06):
me what happens to their eyes when I say, hey,
I really want to do this thing. If I can't
maintain a clear sense of myself when I look in
your eyes, I'll start to shave it and move it
around and not say it and not express it because
the look of disgust in your face I can't tolerate.
(26:31):
And it seems like that's a problem for you. But
it's actually a problem for me. Am I going to
grow parts of myself up? Am I going to develop
the ability to more myself? So even with you, I
can let you see me behind my eyeballs and hold
on to myself at the same time. Most people can't
(26:52):
do that when they say I choose you. I can
do it with somebody in the club, but not you,
because it actually matters when I see discussed. It actually
matters when you say, I ain't doing that's nasty. If
I can't maintain a clear sense in myself, then I'm
going to either make you give yourself up in order
(27:13):
for me to feel better, or I'm going to give
myself up in order for me to feel better and
nothing's going wrong when that happens. That's the function it
forces you up against. Are you going to be clean
about this? Or are you going to be dirty about this?
That's it. Adults don't get a choice between pain and
(27:36):
no pain. The choice. Adults get a choice between am
I going to do this clean? Am I going to
do this dirty? The choice the other choice of possibly
not having as much pain that happens after you make
this one. M Wow, does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
This is c Yeah, it makes deep sense.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
And I think you know anyone listening because that hits
on a lot for a lot of people. And that piece,
you know, part of the way we were just speaking
to it was a little more sexual in nature, But
that is that vulnerability piece is with everything, with everything,
with absolutely the function of every kind of relationship, not
(28:20):
just a coupling or romantic partnership right here.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
So there are particular things in relationships that we say
we let's just agree to disagree that we actually can't
agree to disagree about. Oh tell me, right, you can't
agree to disagree to have half a baby. Like if
somebody is in a relationship and you're in relationship with
somebody and you want to have a baby and your
(28:47):
partner doesn't, there is no agree to disagree with that. Yeah,
you were going to grind, You are going to fight
because it is about importance. Is this important to you?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Read it?
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Disagree is usually a way to get around the most
ardent issue. That mean that that's about usually people's integrity.
I am and I want these particular things. You want
these particular things, and they're juxtaposed to each other. We
can't agree to disagree about that. Yeah, we're gonna have
to rub and grind and fight and then see what
(29:22):
emerges from that. And people don't want to do that.
They want to come into a therapist and pay the
therapist all that money for them to figure out a
figure out the to get a solution for the problem.
There is no solution. There's only emergence. Grow up, and
you keep not wanting to grow up. This is a
(29:45):
conundrum that is not to be fixed. Does that make
sense deeply?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
What I'm hearing especially is you know part of the
reason there's no solution and there's nothing to be fixed
is because there is something that must be created, and
that creation will either be too deciding that there will
be a shared interest, a shared desire that they feed
over time over time, and or we are going into
(30:15):
separate ways and now it's time to create our individual paths.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
And it becomes clear when you do it cleanly as
opposed to going around it.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Can can we speak on the importance of integrity? Can
you give?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Because you know, I think something within a lot of
our communities is we have different definitions than perhaps other people.
We've learned words, applied uses to words in different ways. Right,
So if you would share your definition of integrity and
how that operates in relationship.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Integrity is that thing that's literally tied to creation and purpose.
Integrity is that thing that when you're by yourself, that
gnaws that you, just says, this could be different, and
you're not yes, in alignment with what could be right.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Not in alignment with what could.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Be Integrity is that piece that says, there's something I'm
tied to, something other than just what I want. I'm
tied to creation itself. It gnaws that you. It's not
butterflies on your nose, right, It's not like love and rainbows.
(31:26):
It is the thing that says, are you going to
live into the person you want to be and also
be connected to other human beings that are important to you.
Now that might not You may get the answer coming
from the other side, as the other side where the
person says, I don't want to do this with you anymore. Right,
(31:52):
But though that decision can come from integrity or fear.
And many times we haven't been conditioned in hone to
know what the integrity piece, how that sense it's in
our body, how we notice it. Yeah, we know the
fear piece. We know what that terror is like. And
(32:13):
what I'm trying to get people to understand is that
there's a resource here. There's another resource that will allow
us to work with it differently, but it has to
be cultivated.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
It has to be cultivated the way that I experience integrity.
It's my north star. So integrity for me is like
that internal GPS.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
That's exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I have a deep commitment to my integrity. So it's like,
even if it's something I really want, that feeling comes in,
it doesn't matter, have to follow the internal guidance.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
And a lot of people and this is why I
talk about conditioning and tempering, like the running of the marathon,
A lot of people think that this is something that
does not have to be cultivated. Yeah, we think we
should have it right, and there is a piece that's
tied to creation that we have, but a lot of
us haven't cultivated our embodied sense of it. Yes right, yes,
(33:09):
so so so would look like we look sometimes what
looks like integ what looks like integrity is really intractability. Right,
Is that I'm that fast? Right? People mistake those types
of things sometimes as integrity when it's really another way
(33:32):
around things sometimes, and that's this is the this is
the interrogation pieces, right, and so a lot of my
work is really about slowing down to be to give
yourself enough time to interrogate things.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to speak about practices.
One of the things that we talked about last night
as we were kind of diving into your booking and
the Q and A was around not when you're when
(34:05):
you're in a space like this as a couple, perhaps
right when you are a monster in love, it's not
about creating more shared experiences as a couple, right, Can
you please talk about this piece?
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yea, so so so I think about it like, you know,
when when we get into a relationship with somebody and
the quote unquote too shall become one right type of
thing and we're living our lives right, and you know
(34:43):
this is this is one of the problems that I
have when people say my better half, right, as if
it's as if it's as if you were half and
the other person made you whole the moment that you have,
the moment you start working with that concept. If somebody's
happy you, they get so in everything, right, It is
(35:04):
a it is it is it is, it is, it is.
It is a we purposely put ourselves in vulnerable positions, right,
because we be conditioned to do so. This idea of
half and this idea of the two shell become one,
puts us in a position to where our partners are are.
(35:27):
It's what I call reflected sense of self, right, reflected
sense of self, And this is from one of my mentors,
doctor Davis Narsha. Reflected sense of self is that when
I look at you, my sense of who I am
is reflected in your eyes back to me. So if
you love me, I'm lovable. If you're disappointed at me,
(35:50):
I'm disappointing. Right, And a lot of us have those
types of relationship with people, and so we don't have
any sense of our own sense of self. There is
my sense is of other, a other sense of self
as opposed to my own sense of self myself. Right,
(36:13):
it's both right. It matters to me what you think
about me, but it matters to me what I think
about me. Right, not letting go of you in order
to be with me, I can hold both. That's the
conditioning pieces, right, and so for me a lot of
times what happens in relationships is these concepts around being
(36:34):
in or your better half, your partner, being your better
half pushes us into gridlocks. Right. That could be emergent,
could help us grow up, but a lot of times
just keep us at each other's throat, right, because you
matter too much? Right, And when I say that, I'm
(36:55):
not saying I'm trying to that you shouldn't matter to me.
Saying many times you're mattering supersedes MyD mattering.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Deeply.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Well, Resma and I are talking really large concepts like
these are actually the things that we're kind of maybe
even sound casual about that we are expressing right now
are the fundamental pieces, the foundational pieces of how we
(37:31):
know love or don't, how we love or hate ourselves
throughout our lives, what we're able to have access to.
So something I really want to center for everyone listening
is the gravity of this, right, like this piece that
you just expressed, talking about the inner workings, talking about
(37:52):
the mechanisms that take place in people of how for instance,
a lot of language that is in important that we're
discussing but is sometimes misunderstood or really labeled, is the
dynamic of like a narcissistic relationship or codependent relationship. And granted,
(38:12):
if you find yourself with a narcissist, please run run fast.
And a lot of what Resma just described is what
is going on inside of that body of the narcissist
and inside of the body of what is often referred
to as the empathic person or a codependent person. And
(38:35):
so it's about really juggling and againstness of self and
trying to find an outlet forward while also not revealing
too much about oneself and being committed to not being seen.
And when you're committed to not being seen, we cause
a wreckonable harm to one another into our family systems, right,
(38:58):
and so generation because.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
It's it's such a wide view.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
This is how it happens, and so in the day
to day programming, it may not seem like that big
of a difference, right, It may just be like, oh man,
we don't never get along. Oh yeah, yeah, we're arguous. Okay,
if the kids here, Dad, you're in the thick of it.
It seems natural, it seems normal, and it seems on
par with what you're seeing in the rest of society
on television, your friends, your family. But those mechanisms that
(39:26):
seem like the smaller pieces, those are the seeds that
create generational harm. Generational trauma and keep us from being
able to love each other.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Absolutely so. So I want to be clear here just
as a therapist, that that there are a lot of
terms that we use that people don't know what the
hell are talking about. Like a lot of people are using, oh,
they're a narcissist, they are this, they are that, they're
and and really that's a diagnosedes like you know what
I mean, yeah, and and and the idea like like
(40:02):
I so this this piece around narcissism and being a narcissism,
the underlying piece like narcissism, you know, borderline, all of
these different things. You know what the root of all
of those is trauma.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Trauma.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
We don't want to talk about that. Somebody who developed
who has a narcissist person's personality. That's that is really
if you, if you peel back the edges, most people
who have a narcissistic personality have demonstrative trauma. Yeah right.
(40:38):
I'm not even talking about the historical stuff yet. Yeah,
I'm not even talking about the inner generational stuff. Yeah right.
I'm not even talking about the persistent institutional stuff yet. Personally,
many times these people have horrible trauma, Yeah right, immits
(41:00):
and brutality, right, and so I just really try and
you know, you know, sometimes you know, when you're when
you're dealing with somebody that is harming you, sometimes the
best thing that you can do for you and them
is not allow them to harm you anything.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yes, that's the choice. That's that's the choice. And so
fixing it's a removing.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
And so so so for me, rather than try and like, Okay,
you know this person is narcissistic, this person is this,
this person is you know, borderline and bipolar and all
that different type of stuff. I think I think, I
think we would be better served, especially in relationships, especially
in our communities and communities of culture. I believe that
(41:48):
we would be better served by really understanding that sometimes
you get into a relationship with somebody who you need
to not be in a relationship with, and and and
that and that usually the things that show up in
the relationship are teaching you and telling you to make moves,
(42:14):
and a lot of times you don't make the move.
That goes back to the integrity pieces, right, is you
know there there. I've worked with clients sometimes and they'll
come in and they'll say things like I keep picking
the wrong person. Help me pick better people. And the
thing I always say is the common denominator in this
(42:37):
whole piece is you. What aren't you inquiring into? Right?
I'm not saying that for you to try and find
what the defect is. I'm saying there's a particular patterning
that keeps showing up in terms of the people that
you're bringing into your life. If you refuse to inquire
(43:02):
into that, and you keep saying it's them them them
them them them them, you're going to be doing this
for the next forty years. Remember what I said yesterday
about many times one of the reasons why people can't
unhook from things is because they're coming at it from
their virtue. Yeah, that virtue piece like I'm a good dude,
(43:25):
I'm a good person, high, I'm high value. Yah.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, that's the new one that want to say.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
Everybody, I'm high value. I'm right. The problem is that
virtues always have limitations, and the limitations usually show up
when you choose another person. Limitations don't usually show up
when you're by yourself.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Why do limitations show up right when you're with the person.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Because your choices become finite the moment that you choose
another person, you become vulnerable, and if you have it
being able to ma tabolize the energy of vulnerability, you
begin to make the moves to try and lessen the vulnerability,
right and so and so I'm a high value. It's
(44:14):
cool when I'm by myself, yeah, in theory, but when
when I'm dating another guy and that value and then
I'm getting reflected sense of self and I'm I'm high
value and the person's looking at me is like, you're
a mean person. Yeah, you're mean. I'm high value though
(44:38):
your mean as hell, Like like I try and come
and touch you, and you like, you're like you push
me away, But I'm high value. You're mean. That's the
that's because because you're coming at it from a virtue.
And that's not to say you should not have virtue,
but realize that your virtue always has a limitation attached
(45:00):
to it, and no matter which way you turn your head,
you're going you're never going to be able to see it.
What actually has to happen is that people in your
life help you take that virtue and help that limitation
go offline. So you have to contend with it. Right,
But what normally happens for people, is that the moment
that it goes offline, they say, you're making me feel
(45:22):
bad about myself, You're not a good person, you're not supportive,
you don't love me, right, and then they slowly get
it right back in the linement and then they can't
see it again.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, And what I'm hearing and what you're saying, and
this is what so many people do, and not as
a judgment, but I share you know, it's creating this
monument as your identity exactly right, like coming up with
out side.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
And that's part of the danger of.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
What this kind of last ten years, part of our
cultural narrative around making an elevator pitch for everything, right,
like having to come up with on your Instagram the
quick bio that listen sustain you know sufficiently describes who
you are and so people can get it. I do this,
and it's like you're creating this container of limitation. Sure that, really,
(46:12):
especially in relationship, can tricks any ability to have vulnerability.
I want to ask you one more question about vulnerability.
So we talked about the mechanic of the mechanism of
why you want to withdraw vulnerability in relationship when that
is catalyzed in someone. What does that look like someone
(46:37):
looking to withdraw vulnerability from the relationship, from the friendship,
from whatever the partnership.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Ishave you ever been with somebody and things are going
well and then something happens and you don't know what
the hell it is, but you have sense that sweetness
has been removed. You don't know what you know what
(47:06):
I mean? Yeah, that's the piece, it's not. That's when
you're watching people struggle with their vulnerability. The first thing
to go is not is not nice things or saying
nice things. The first thing to go that we don't
that we haven't been conditioned to pick up on vibratorially,
(47:28):
is sweetness. Think about what I'm saying. We all know it,
We all know that piece. The first thing to go
is the sweetness. Yeah, yeah, they're not the look, not
the love, not the right, the sweetness.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
There is a layer of that sweet authenticity that gets removed,
and it's not something that you can fully call out.
And so the person means, who are not to gaslight
you about it.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Because they don't know it. They have not because we
haven't been conditioned with understanding the vibration of that all
we know is that something was there that's that's now
missing and I don't even know what was there.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yes, Yes, it's hard to develop the language for.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
And that's why I say the communal pieces right that
we keep trying to figure this stuff out individually and
it's really a communal cultivation that we're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
This is so good, my brother Resma, as we close
out this, I know that's why.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
That's why everybody wants to have that apart podcast.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
We can figure it out if you would share with
the audience a piece of soul work, a practice of
digesting this conversation and making it a little more exploratory
in their lives until we need again next week.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
Absolutely. So one of the first things I want to
tell people is that this culture and this philosophy inherently
disorients us. There's a constant disorientation, and so one of
(49:23):
the things I talk about is that. And it's particularly
for black bodies. I'm talking to black bodies right now.
We have this sense that we walk around and we
don't share it with each other. It's we think it's
an individual piece, but it's actually communal. We have the
sense that that there's something getting ready to happen. The
(49:45):
next shoot is about the drop that something is happening,
is going to happen, right, and I'm gonna have to
deal with it. Right. That is a prevailing kind of
embodied sense that we have. And so on. When I'm
working with bodies of culture in my office, one of
the first kind of things that I work with them
on is orienting. Right. So like that couple that I'm
(50:10):
talking to you about, one of the first things that
I've done with them is and this is just to
set the kind of foundation piece is for them to
start orienting. And what does that mean. That means that
when you go into someplace or someplace that's familiar or
someplace that's unfamiliar, it doesn't matter. Literally stop for a
(50:32):
moment and look around the room, particularly behind you. Right.
Why is that important? Because there we have been conditioned
that something is going to happen to us and we
better not focus on that, just move forward, right. But
(50:55):
yet that energetic kind of sense is still there, So
looking behind you can be over time, you can condition
your body to begin to go, oh, there's nothing behind it.
I tell black people to do this all the time, right,
start orienting, right, let your body, because your body is
(51:18):
going to be like watch it, something's happening, watch it.
Oh you know, I don't call microaggressions. I just call
them aggressions. That's an aggression, right, it's coming, be mindful
of right. And so what I say is look behind you,
look up, look down, notice colors, notice things, and just
find the windows, the doors and the exits. Why because
(51:43):
many we come from nervous systems. Who if we stay,
we died. If we left, we died. It's the double bind.
So let your body actually see in this moment and
this time I can leave. Yes.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Yeah, And I'd love to suggest for everyone as well,
some of that beautiful mirror work. Really notice how you
feel when you see your reflection or how you try
and avoid it exactly. Yeah, there's there's real learning any
(52:24):
against That's exactly what come up. You know, if you
if you find yourself wanting to reject your own reflection,
don't judge it. Take the time that you need in
between rooking at yourself, but begin to get curious about it.
Where did that feeling come from? And how can we
(52:44):
soften it? How can we dismantle it? Resma meinikan newest
book Monsters and Love is in stores now, and of
course you can still pick up My Grandmother's Hands, The
Quaking of America, my brother.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Thank you for joining.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
Us, Love you, love you, thanks, thanks.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Thanks, all right, thank you for joining us for another
episode of Deeply Well. Take your time really connecting with
the practice is shared, really connecting with the word shared.
There are some things that may start to come up,
and as always, get curious and if it feels overwhelming,
get connected and get supported in the way that you're
(53:25):
able to have that show up in your life. Meditate,
Please connect to your daily practice and we'll be back
next week.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Thank you for.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
Joining No mistake. Connect with me on social at Debbie Brown.
That's Twitter and Instagram, or you can go to my
website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're listening to
the show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review
and subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Deeply
Well is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network.
(53:56):
It's produced by jah Queis Thomas, Samantha Timmins, Me, Debbie Brown.
The Beautiful Soundbath You Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from
Crystal Cadence. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Devi Brown
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