October 27, 2022 • 55 mins
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford is a licensed psychologist, speaker, and host of the wildly popular mental health podcast, Therapy for Black Girls. On this episode, we explore what friendship looks like. Especially amongst women and black women. As we heal and connect to a different levels of consciousness and emotional intelligence; this conversation elaborates on the dynamics of healthier relationships.
Dr. Joy introduces her upcoming book, “Sisterhood Heals” aimed to provide a healing language for our sisters and friendship circles.
The book “Sisterhood Heals” releases in the Summer of 2023
Connect: @DeviBrown @HelloDrJoy
Learn More: TherapyForBlackGirls.com
Join the mailing list for updates on the book: Sisterhood Heals
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M from grandmothers who whispered in their baby girl ill
two fathers on dimly lit street corners, instructing young soldiers
to always keep their eyes open. You be queen, you
(00:21):
were fired. You will pass through centuries on the hands
of your daughters. They called you wisdom. Proverbs on the
backs of diamond eyed school children who grew into hymnals
recited by amethyst holding urban philosophers who recited neighborhood commandments
out of the windows of restored Alchemedo chariots. To keep
the warmth of their blood. Be wise, be smart, being black,
(00:46):
Opal Brown courts bloodstone and prayer. Be every form of
jim see. King told, scribe, scribe, told son, son, told wife,
wife told her daughter, and daughter told the as this is.
And the ancestors told me that you would come to
give wisdom thousands. They said you would come Dropping Dropping
(01:09):
the Gym. Welcome back to another episode of The Dropping
Gym's podcast. I'm Debbie Brown. This is the show where
we like to settle into a soft place to land,
to unpack ourselves, to grab new tools for the journey,
and to really expand our consciousness for our highest good.
(01:31):
Today's episode is gonna be so doubt oh my gosh. Okay.
So in the pandemic, I had a chance to be
connected with an absolutely brilliant, amazing, pioneering woman in a
mental health space, and we had a chance to be
on a panel together, which then led to a podcast
and led to me just really loving and enjoying so
(01:54):
much that she offers the world. And today we are
ready to dive deep, deep, deep in a way that
helps empower us to make better choices and to have
lives that feel really nourishing, really full, and deeply connected
to the community that we're aligned with. Today's guest is
(02:19):
Dr Joy Harden Bradford. Dr Joy Harder and Bradford is
a licensed psychologist, speaker, founder and CEO of Therapy for
Black Girls, and hosts of its widely popular mental health podcast.
Her work focuses on making mental health topics more relevant
and accessible for Black women, and she specializes in creating
(02:42):
spaces for them to have fuller and healthier relationships with
themselves and others. She is currently writing her first book,
Sisterhood Heels, set to release summer tree. Dr Joy exists
at the intersection of psychology and pop culture or it
is always an honor and a joy to be in
(03:05):
conversation with you. Please welcome to the show, Dr Joy,
Harden Bradford, Thank you so much for having me, Debbie.
Such an honor, Dr Joy. I mean, I feel like
I have yet to have the honor of breathing the
same air as you. But I feel like we've been
so connected since the top of the pandemic, you know that.
(03:26):
I just remember kind of that moment where I think
for many of us, it clicked on of I have
I have more tools to offer in this very scary
moment for so many How are you? Oh, I am
hanging in there, hanging in there, m M yeah, I
(03:48):
feel like it is, you know, really best I kind
of think about it, just kind of putting one foot
in front of the other. Um, you know, because even
though I mean, we're not out of the pandemic right
despite would you know, many would maybe I was believe, Um,
you know, there's still a lot going on, and you know,
just on top of the pandemic, there's just so many
other things happening in the world. Um, and you know, personally,
(04:09):
I'm also completing my first book right now, So I
just feel like there's just been so much chaos and
everything going on, So putting one foot in front of
the other and kind of holding on is how I'm
doing right now. You know. Thank you for that transparency,
because speaking to that, I think something that a lot
of people, um might easily assume, especially with someone like yourself,
(04:35):
that oh, you you don't feel any of this, you
know there. I think for a lot of people who
start on the path, there's this assumption that you'll get
to a point where everything will feel good all the time.
And you know, that's one of the biggest questions people
kind of aim towards me just in my regular life.
It's like, oh, so, what do you consider a challenge?
And I'm like, oh no, No, every day is challenging.
(04:59):
Life is profoundly challenging. I think for me, it's just
the reaction or how long it feels like a personal
experience shifts and it's different. I'm able to come out
of things quicker, or I'm able to hold more neutrality,
or just have tools so that I'm able to come
back to myself sooner. Um, what does that mean for
(05:20):
you when you say you're hanging in there. As someone
that is a leading mental health professional, Yeah, yeah, I
appreciate that debby, because you know, I do think that
there is sometimes that um misconception right that you know,
because we are healing professionals or helping professionals, um, that
we are not impacted. But that could not be further
from the truth. Um. You know. So a lot of
(05:41):
what I'm talking about in terms of hanging in there
is like keeping up with my own mental health, which
involves weekly sessions with my therapist. Um, you know, because
I definitely feel like there has just been so much
anxiety for me in the pandemic, um, just around you know,
keeping myself and my family safe and what does this mean?
And is it okay to travel? And you know, I
(06:03):
mean it just feels like there has been a lot,
and so therapy has been incredibly grounding for me during
this period of the pandeming, but also in writing the
book because I feel like, you know, this has been
a stretch for me professionally, right, Like it's my first book.
It's a new thing that I had not done, um,
And so with any new thing, there's like all these
new challenges and like, oh, I didn't know that that
(06:25):
was hiding in that corner, right, And so having me
having my therapist to talk about all of those things,
which has just been very, very grounding and helpful for me. Wow,
I can't wait to dive into talking about this book
that comes out. But one thing I'm really curious about,
you know, as as you're speaking to especially the way
you were showing up for yourself and for millions of people,
(06:49):
you know, in the midst of the pandemic, did anything
shift about the way you relate to what you do
because I can imagine you're under duress as a being,
as a human, as a woman and with her own
life needs, responsibilities, and you have to show up at
such a high level for those that are coming to you.
Did anything start to shift or were there any observations
(07:11):
about that time. That's such a good question, Debby. So
I think, like you kind of alluded to in the beginning,
like in the very beginning of the pandemic, it felt
like there was a huge need for people who do
the kinds of things that we do, right like this
healing helping, Like Okay, how do we ground ourselves and
make sense at this moment? And so in the beginning
there were all these requests of course, which is how
(07:32):
you are not connected. Initially was a panel for somebody, right, um,
and you know there are all these requests for like
come teach our group like skills to manage this, and
come do this and that, and so initially I think
it felt like, oh, Okay, well I can do this
because I'm home, right, Like I'm not even having to
travel anywhere to do these things. But I think a
(07:53):
couple of months into it, I I really begin to
feel burned out because even though I'm like doing these
presentations and things from home, like, I'm still like on right,
and so so there's still a lot that I'm offering.
And so I think I had kind of fooled myself
into thinking, like, oh, this doesn't feel as strenuous as
my schedule was before when I was you know, in
(08:13):
a different city a couple of times a month and
you know, really kind of on the road. And so
one I think it really caused me to like re
reimagined like what busy felt like. So it didn't feel
busy in the same way, but it was still you know,
like extending myself in like holding space for people who
are all afraid, right, like we're all just trying to
(08:35):
figure out what's happening, And so I think it really
led me to reimagine, like, Okay, you still have to
slow down, right, Like you still can't just be going, going, going,
even if it's just in your bedroom doing these presentations.
And then I think the next thing though, is that
it also led me to having a much deeper appreciation
for the work that I do, um, because I do
(08:57):
think during the pandemic and I don't even think we
have reached like the peak of the mental health concerns
and issues that we're going to have to have as
people kind of settle out of like what is this
trauma we've all experienced? Right, And so I think it
has led me to also have a much deeper appreciation
(09:18):
for the work that I do, and a much more
um you know, like wanting to be protective of it
because it's going to be needed, right, so, so really
trying to pace myself so that when there is maybe
the greatest need, I still have something left to offer. Ah,
when I tell you, Dr Joy, the way I relate
to everything that you just said, I think myself and
(09:42):
and for for some others that I've spoken to. I
think a lot of the people that were the healers
and the helpers um in that moment in time, we're
kind of just settling into, like I I feel with
my body, I'm just settling into what two years of
that felt like. Because when I really look back at it,
I spent the pandemic in my house, working more than
(10:05):
I've ever worked, and I was showing up, and you
know it, it did feel like there was ease to
it because I could, you know, have a dress top,
but have my pajama bottoms or you know, you feel
comfortable because you're with your things and I have, you know,
my favorite things in the fridge within reach, and you know,
so there was this comfort in this holding. But I
(10:26):
look back and I said, Wow, in the pandemic, I
facilitated all of this healing work. And I was in
the midst of a divorce, and I was raising a
child who was two years old, and and and I
was in a pandemic too, you know. And it's just
been really interesting seeing the gifts but also really seeing
(10:48):
the fatigue of that. And I think it's just starting
to come online for some of us as the world
quote unquote gets back to normal whatever that means. Whatever means,
Oh okay, you are in the midst of writing your
first book, Dr Joy, and when I have a chance
(11:09):
to kind of read up on what it was about,
I feel so excited because this conversation your book let
me start by saying, is called Sisterhood Heels and it's
set to release summer. That title, Sisterhood Heels is so powerful,
(11:30):
and I think we are in the midst of creating
an entirely new template for what friendship can look like,
and especially friendship among women and Black women. There seems
to be this evolution in the air, this new understanding
of emotional intelligence that people are trying to connect to.
(11:51):
So what is this book about? Tell me that thing? Excited?
I feel like saying, need to chat with you about
this debby, because I've also heard you talk about this,
so I know that this is something that's important to
you as well. Um you know, but when I think
about like who we have been as black women, and
like what our history and the country has been and
(12:12):
in the world, a lot of our surviving and thriving
is connected to one another. And I think I have
seen that even more so in the pandemic right just around,
like mutual aid exchanges and um, you know, offering what
you have to your community and to your neighbors and
all of those kinds of things. And so to me
(12:34):
it is crystal clear, as it always has been, that
to get through this thing called life, it has to
be together, that we need to do this thing together.
And so the book is really all about a lot
of my experience has been in facilitating group therapy, and
so the book is really about the lessons and things
that I have learned from group therapy that can also
(12:55):
help us in our individual sisterhoods. So how do we
pay attention to the different dyning amics that happened in
sisterhoods and the changes and if unfortunately a sisterhood has
to end, how do you navigate that in a way
that's as compassionate and kind as possible. Mm hmmm mmmm Okay,
(13:16):
take my money. Wow, God, this is so needed. This
is so needed, And to what you said, you know,
a moment ago, this is so important to me and
it's something especially as it relates to boundaries with people
and how we can have boundaries with kindness and compassion
that a friendship kind of gently falling off. It doesn't
(13:38):
have to be beef. We we can still think fondly
of each other and just still move forward with our lives.
Like these are things that haven't been naturally kind of
shared with so many of us or role models in
any way. I would love to start by grounding this
and having, especially for everyone listening, Dr Joy, what would
(13:58):
be what would you consider to be a healthy dynamic,
a healthy template a friendship? What should healthy friendship feel like,
look like, be experienced as That's a big question. Um.
So the first thing that comes to mind for me
is reciprocal. Right, So it should feel like there is
(14:19):
space for everybody in the circle to kind of feel
like they are getting their needs met but also meeting
the needs of other people. Um. And I think when
you talk about boundaries like you just did, that is
where we often see that not happening. Right. So sometimes
there are certain friends who are kind of stepping up
a lot, and then there is no space or other
people are not really kind of doing their part. So
(14:40):
the first thing is reciprocal. Um. I also think that
it is a space where everybody feels celebrated. Um. You know,
so when we think about a circle, like there is
no one part of a circle that is like bigger
or stronger, like we all come together to make the circle.
And so when I think about healthy friendship, I think
about a space where everybody feels so abrated and you
(15:01):
are able to have your moment, but it doesn't diminish
my moment or what can happen for me. Um So,
a space where everybody really feels celebrated, and also a
space where conflict can be resolved in healthy way. So
I think when people here conflict, they often want to
run in the opposite direction. But conflict is natural and normal,
like it just means we maybe disagree on some things,
(15:22):
and conflict actually can make your relationship stronger. But what
really deteriorates our relationships is an avoidance of the conflict,
Like we don't want to have the hard conversations, we
don't want to save a thing, we don't want to
address the elephant in the room, and it actually makes
our relationships weaker. Um So, I think healthy friendships also
involved an ability to really handle conflict. Oh okay, hold on,
(15:46):
because I already wrote I wrote some notes. I want
to go back the first. The first the first pillar
that you spoke to was the word reciprocal. What is
that definition? And in relationship I found and I had
this clip that that a lot of people saw last
year where I was saying I'm not available for anything
(16:09):
that's not mutually beneficial. And you know, I think everyone's vocabulary,
the way they relate to words is different, so so
many got it. But then some people are like, mutually beneficial,
so someone has to do something for you back, and
you know, and it's like, okay, so instead of mutually beneficial,
let's use the term mutually supportive, let's use the term reciprocal.
(16:29):
I think a lot of people when they hear those words,
they have this idea of more of a monetary exchange
or something that is like you did this check, now
I will do this for you. And you know, something
that I've tried to share with people is like even
gratitude as reciprocity. You know, even something like a heartfelt
(16:51):
gratitude and appreciation for what I'm giving feels reciprocal to
me because there is something for me in it as well.
There is some thing that fills me, you know, what
is reciprocal in in the relationship sense. M I think
of it in the simplest form, It's like a natural
kind of given, take and you're right, Like, it's not
(17:13):
a score card. It's not like a tally, like, Okay,
I did two things, and so now next week you
have to do two things for me. I think it
is more of a feeling of being like in a
relationship where you know that they have your back and
you also have theirs, right, So it doesn't have to
mean I, you know, did five things nice for you,
and so now you gotta do seven. It is more like,
do you feel like if you called on them in
(17:34):
your time of need, they would be there? And I
think it's important to think about, you know, like we
all are human, right, and so there's all kinds of
things that are often happening in our own lives. So
there may not be times where we can be there
for a friend in the ways that we want to.
But I think when you look at the overall picture,
the overall history of a friendship, does it feel like
(17:55):
more often than not, this is somebody who you know
is in your corner, who you can call when times
are tough and vice versa. Right, Like, it should should
not feel like a one sided kind of thing where
you're the one always making the calls, always texting, always
doing the planning, like it should feel like everybody has
a part in this friendship, and everybody's part doesn't have
(18:16):
to be the same kind of part, you know, I
think um in some friendship dynamics, it's like, well, I
threw a big party for you. I wanted a big
party too, and it's like, but are you the are
you the person that's really good at that? Does that
person know how to do that? Did you tell them
you wanted that? You know, I think it's it's as
we expand this conversation, it's so important to know that
(18:40):
we should be bringing our strengths to our friendship. We
should be bringing our gifts to our friendship, which means
we'll all be kind of adding to it in so
many different ways. You know, I want to touch on
something you just said that because I think this is important.
So the idea that I threw you a big party
and so then I expected that you would also throw
me a party, was that expectation actually voiced. So that
(19:02):
is one of those things that I think also gets
in the way of us having really healthy, full of
relationships is that we feel like friendships should be natural, right,
Like it kind of feels like, oh, we go to
school together, you know, in our childhood, that is how
we become friends. Right when you are grown up, you
have to work a little harder at that. And sometimes
what what is often missing is that we don't learn
that we have to actually voice those expectations and the
(19:25):
same way we would do in romantic relationships, it's important
to do that in in platonic friendships as well in
other relationships. So I think that unvoiced expectation and the
idea that they should just know that you wanted that
to happen, Well, how would they know if you didn't
tell them? And it doesn't make them a bad friend
because they didn't do it, because you didn't let them
know that that was actually an expectation. Wow, wow, Wow,
(19:50):
everybody listening, and I want you to sit in the
first second, take a friend, See how that feels, See
where you land and that equation. Just notice it. Wow
for for those listening, because I think, you know, especially
for for generations that came before. Right now, we've done
an immense amount of unpacking major major consciousness blocks and
(20:17):
concepts over just the last handful of years. Right we
have doven into women, um, you know, sexuality. We have
dived into race deeper than we've ever gone. Multiple cultures
and that experience, especially within America, there have been so
many unpackings in a short time. We're all kind of
(20:40):
processing that. And I think you know something that many
are coming to notice is a lot of us grew
up in communities and households where the adults were emotionally
immature and there was just not a role modeling of
behavior that can lead you in a life where you
(21:00):
feel like a healthy, functioning adult that can meet your
own needs. Um. So, I think you know a lot
of people that are even in friendships and communities that
they do love, they don't know anything different. It may
not be in the plan for them to uproot and
find a new tribe. Are there ways to kind of
bring some healing and to upgrade the way we are
(21:23):
in friendships with each other without having to find new friends?
Mm hmmm, I mean yeah, that's basically the premise of
the book is is this idea that you know, and
you're right, like a lot of us have not come
from homes where that was role model for us. And
you know, generations and the generation before them, like a
lot of what they had to do was really survival based, right, Like,
(21:44):
so there were decisions that they made that unfortunately impacted
us in some ways that you know, didn't really foster
our emotions, but in a lot of ways, it was
what they felt like they had to do. But I
do think because we are having these kinds of conversations
right now, it provides an excellent operace munity for us
to be able to do that healing work with one another. Right,
So can I say to you, as my sister, out
(22:06):
that hurt and that doesn't mean that the friendship ends.
It just means that this is now an opportunity for
us to talk about it and how can I hold
you accountable? How can you learn from that situation? And
did not mean that you're a bad person? Right, I
think we have to really look at our defensiveness and
how that often comes up when we've heard someone. But
(22:27):
it doesn't mean that you're bad. It just means out
that hurt me and I want to talk about how
we can continue to be in relationship and you not
do that thing, or you not hurt me in that
same way in the future. So I think our sister
circle really provide an important opportunity for us to actually
do that healing work with one another. Wow. Wow, I'm
so excited for all of us this this time of
(22:51):
they're just being more space for vulnerability, and they're being
like space for being in practice with the things that
you just didn't know, you know. I feel like there
was and as much grace for those processes or they're
just weren't as many people trying to do it at
the same time previously. Yeah, and you you use a
very important word there, Davy, practice right, Like we are
(23:13):
all really just practicing being human, like there is no perfection.
And as many you know, workshops that we go to
and books we read and podcasts we listen to, like,
we're all just practicing. And so I think it is
really important for us to be grace gracious with one another. Um.
But I think it it had there has to be
some limits to that, right, So you don't want to be, um,
(23:33):
extending so much grace that you're actually betraying yourself, right
you know. So I think that there's sometimes work that
we need to do individually, um, that that needs to
happen before we're really able to kind of be in
circles in full ways. Um. So I think that again,
back to our earlier conversation around boundaries, like you can't
continue to let somebody kind of overstep your boundaries and
(23:55):
and not kind of redraw them and say, Okay, I
would like to still being reallyationship with you, but this
is what it looks like. So maybe that looks like
less access, Maybe that looks like, you know, just more
spread out you know when we get together. But I
don't think that you want to offer so much grace
that you are then betraying yourself. Thank you for saying that,
because the boundaried grace is what we're after. That passion
(24:20):
extended to self first then others is what we're after.
M Yeah, and I think you know giving you know, again,
back to our earlier conversation about just how training and
how much has happened in the past couple of years.
I think that that is also something that impacts our relationships,
is that we are trying to like offer with not
(24:41):
from the overflow. Right, So the idea is that you
re feel yourself so that you are able to be
in relationship with others from your overflow. But if you
are all tapped out, that maybe why you're a little
cranky with your friends. Or where you're feeling like, oh,
I don't want to answer this call right, So it
does really have it. It goes back to really making
sure that we're taking care of ourselves and doing the
(25:02):
kinds of things that we need to do so that
we can actually be in healthy relationship to other people.
Drop One of the things, UM, I was finding that
(25:27):
I was getting a certain kind of comment back in
relation to anytime I put up content around friendships, and
there was, UM, I'll give you a scenario, and I
would love to know if you would walk us through
what this process is. So some people that are in
friendship for for many, friendship is your created family. You
(25:49):
know that that is maybe your safe splace, safe space
for the first time, but it also sometimes become becomes
the space where you project everything that happened to you
prior to the friendship, and it becomes a space where
you kind of have toddler childlike Brady behavior that maybe
you weren't allowed to have with your parents. And so
(26:11):
I think, you know, something that people were saying to
me is, well, you know, I tried to talk to
this friend about this, but you know they don't even
treat the X that dog them out the way they
go off on me, or they treat the guy they
only dated for a month with more grace or more understanding.
But there's all this expectation on me. What is that
(26:32):
dynamic when we are projecting on other people some of
that original wounding? What is that? Damny? I feel like
you have like an early copy of this book, and
you clearly do not, because there is no early copy
of the book, yet I would like one and are connected.
(26:54):
So so what you're talking about, and again why I
think group therapy can be very powerful. What you're which
you're basically talking about. There is a term in group
therapy called the recapitulation of the family unit. And so
what often happens in a group of strangers of if
we're talking about group therapy, is that there will be
members of the group who will pull things from you
(27:16):
that remind you of your original family unit. So you
find yourself acting out towards a group member as though
they are your mother, and clearly it's not about them.
It is what they have arisen and awoken in you,
and in our sister circles, in our friendship circles, the
same kind of thing happens, like it is still a
(27:37):
group dynamic. And so when you find yourself acting out
or um, maybe wanting to be brady so to speak,
or you know, being super selfish, it is very likely
that what's happening is that some of those childhood wounds
or childhood areas that have not been addressed are present
and you actually don't even know it. And that's something
that often is playing out on the subconscious, So we
(27:57):
don't always know this is what's happened. And so I
think being able to have some of this language like hey,
they aren't actually reacting to me, They are reacting to
the thing that my presence has now awoken in them
that they have not dealt with. And so I think
being able to again have honest conversations, you know. And
the more we know about our friends and the more
(28:18):
we know about their history, it is sometimes easier to
kind of see that. Um. But but I don't want
us to kind of try to play therapists with our friends, right.
It's not about us trying to do the work of,
you know, therapizing and psychoanalyzing our friends. But I do
think it can be helpful to be able to call
call attention to like, hey, I wonder what's going on here, Like,
I'm noticing this dynamic where it feels like you're able
(28:40):
to extend grace to other people and it doesn't feel
like you're able to do that with me. I wonder
if you've noticed that, right, And so really just kind
of calling attention to these things, because of course they
have been like we are with these people, like you said,
they are our creative family, and what that means is
that we then create some of those same dynamics that
we had in our families origin who who Uh this book,
(29:09):
Oh my gosh, this is gonna be so powerful again.
I'm gonna say this title and I hopefully by the
time this airs you can get that pre order on
Sisterhood Heels. It will be out this summer three. Dr
joy Hard and Bradford. God, this book is so needed
right now, and I'm so excited for everyone that picks
(29:30):
it up, because understanding this changes your life. Understanding this
brings the ease that everyone is talking about. Ease isn't
just you know, like this is a moment where so
many of us are reclaiming ease rest but what that
means is like really doing the work to clean up
(29:51):
your life to pack in the empty places more love.
So that eases is really the natural state, not the avoidance. UM.
And this book we we need to clean up our lives.
We need to edit the intimate facets of our lives,
our friendships, our households, how we show up in the world,
(30:12):
and our work. Ah. So, Debby, I want to I
want to turn the table a little bit because I
would love to have this conversation with you. So one
of the things in doing the research for the book,
but one of the things that kept coming up was
how friendship dynamics changed after somebody got engaged, are married,
and so you know, it didn't always. I think the
(30:34):
common thing people think is like, oh, somebody was jealous,
and so you know, they I got I got married first,
and so then they got jealous and in the friendship ended. UM.
And I'm wondering in some of the posts that you have,
you know, put up around friendship, has this conversation come
up for you or do you have personal experience or
thoughts about like why that dynamic changes when there has
been like the presence of an engagement or a wedding. Oh,
(30:58):
this is spicy, Dr Joydan And this is It's so
funny because just this past weekend, I was hanging out
with some friends and I was talking about my experience
with some of my bridesmaids when I got married, and
it was so interesting because there was one person who
is no longer in my life. It was it was
(31:21):
it was shocking yet not you know, um, but it was.
It was fascinating to watch and confusing. Where I remember
I got engaged and all of a sudden I found
out way after the wedding all the ways they were
trying to sabotage the wedding, like not spending out invites
(31:41):
to things like not inviting people to things that I
asked because they had a personal issue with them, which
created a rift for me and that person. UM. And
I've even heard from people, you know, situations where someone
decided to get pregnant just because they wanted to have
something going on to talk about while their friend was
(32:02):
in their new marriage, and it's it's fascinating. It's absolutely
fascinating what comes up. And I was getting a ton
of those responses of the main way that people were
um responding with this dynamic doctor joy was around just
feeling like they had lost something more than anything like
it was more of a feeling of I've been abandoned
(32:26):
or I won't have my needs met anymore. Um. And
you know, to my ear, that also sounds like some
of those deeper woundings, those projections, those kind of throwing
your needs and worth on someone else. Um. But that
was the leading thing. People just feeling sad, feeling like
now they'd have less m Yeah, I completely agree with that.
(32:46):
That is my assessment as well, is that oftentimes what
happens in those situations is that grief is triggered, right,
and we don't think about it as grief, because one
we often think about grief only is like the death
of a loved one, right, But there's all these other
ways that we experience grief. And I think changing changes
in a relationship that is super important to us. Even
(33:08):
though it's a happy time maybe for our friend, I
think we have real trouble, like Jex supposing that to
like out, I feel like now I'm going to lose them, right,
and so I feel like we need to do a
better job of having conversations around like, I'm really happy
for you, but I'm also a little worried about what
this changes for us and like sad about the fact
(33:29):
that our dynamic won't of course be able to be
the same as it was, you know. So I think
all of this acting out that we sometimes see is
really a grief response that people just don't recognize and
don't have the language for. Yeah, and then sometimes for
some people that that thing kicks in where you say, well,
let me just think this ship because then at least
it's my choice. Yep, you know you're gonna get in
(33:52):
front of it, you know. So, so that is it
was my decision. What what do you think of the
story I told about the Bridesmaid? Yeah, I mean I
definitely think, you know, there was clearly something going on there,
and I wonder if you saw signs, like looking back,
were there are things that you recognize even before you
got engaged that indicated like something maybe a little off
(34:15):
or something kind of feels unsettled about this person, you know? Yes,
And and that was a lot of my work, um,
and in listening to my intuition, Like I have a
very particular style of integrity that I moved in the
world with and I really believe in spiritual hygiene, and
I think that good choice making compassionate choice making. It's
(34:38):
incredibly important to my life. So I used to get
those kind of worlds blurred where I felt like I
had to. When I saw people that weren't in integrity,
it was because they just didn't know and I needed
to show or I needed to help. So I am
a super super reformed um vixer and people pleaser. I'm
(35:00):
the person that you still want to do everyone's work
for them and just no, no, no, but look read
this book and didn't it and I was taking it
all on and gratefully that is no longer my life. Um,
but yeah, you know, when I look back at that friendship,
absolutely and we had been childhood friends, and I saw
those traits in that person. I remember clearly having making
(35:22):
mental notes way back at ten, noticing how they were
kind of treating people or making things about them, and
I just let it go on for way too long,
and then I saw the biggest you know, because when
things aren't super affecting you, when they're more like kind
of tiny irritations, it's just kind of like, yeah, that's
them being them. But when you keep that dynamic in
(35:44):
in your life, when they have the opportunity to do
it at a higher stake, they will, and so you
need a curb it when you first notice it. It
is so important. M Yeah, and who knows, you know
what kind of abandonment kinds of you know, his three
there me have been you know, I don't know of
course this person um or what got activated, but cluely
(36:05):
something got activated with your engagement, which then led to
all of this behavior, kind of really stepping up a match. Yeah,
lasting piece, lasting piece to all evolved. Um I have
a very specific question for you. This is I'm so curious.
You know, Dr Joy therapy for Black girls has been
(36:26):
such a leader in the mental health space. One of
the one of the you know, data points around therapy
for black women is that only five percent of us
therapists are black. Can you speak to the importance of
speaking with therapists that have the deeper understanding of your
(36:47):
cultural needs, but specifically some of the personality traits, um experiences,
and trauma that seemed to happen within particular communities. Um,
Is it isn't in portant to find someone that looks
like you or understands your experience to unpack yourself with. Yeah,
So I would say it is important if it feels
(37:10):
important to you, um, you know, because that won't necessarily
be like a qualifier for a lot of people, right,
But I do think, um, at least my experience has
been there for a lot of black women, that does
feel very very important because there are some things that
you just assume that another black woman will understand, right,
Like so when I think about like going through the
(37:32):
pandemic and then you know all of the continued racial injustice,
you know, George Floyd being killed, Brianna Taylor being killed.
You know, there are ways that I think black women
took in those stories and experience those things that you know,
you just get right. And so if I came to
the session the week after finding out about Brianna Taylor,
(37:55):
I'm not gonna have to go into too much backstory
with my therapist because my therapist is also a black woman, um,
because there's some things that I know that she understands
because she's also a black woman in this country. So
I think for people who that is important, it is
absolutely okay to kind of change that, to to look
out that look for that in your search. But as
(38:15):
you mentioned, there are not that many of us, right,
and so what that means is that, you know, either
people end up on waiting lists or people will see
therapists who aren't necessarily black women. So that means me um,
that you see a black man or somebody else another
person of color. But what that means for other therapists
who are not black is that there are some work
(38:37):
that they need to do so that they are creating
conditions that are safe for black women to come into
therapy to unpack these kinds of things. So, you know,
there are lots of microaggressions and ruptures that happened with
non black therapists because there's this questioning of reality, right, like,
didn't that really happen in the way that you are
saying it? Or you know, now, tell me why you
(38:59):
would be so impacted by, you know, this thing that
has nothing to do with you, right, Other therapists really
need to make sure that they are doing their own
work so that they're not perpetrating those kinds of things
that then make it difficult for people to even continue
to believe in therapy. You know. So because a lot
of our families, there's not a lot of history of
you know, parents and grandparents and aunties and uncle's going
(39:20):
to therapy. A lot of times we are the first
ones who may be having that experience, and so if
we don't have a good experience, then that sometimes leaves
us feeling like, oh, this isn't actually helpful, This made
me feel worse. So why would I pay, you know,
somebody to go and do this thing. So I do
think it is if it feels important to you to
find a therapist who matches you in some way, it
(39:40):
is absolutely okay to do that. But I do think
that there are also a lot of therapists who may
not match you, right, And so I typically encourage people
to just be open to surprises, right, but not to
you know, betray yourself again by like continuing in weeks
and weeks of therapy with somebody who's like perpetuating racism
against you. Absolutely not. There are some therapys who have
done their work. They have done um, you know, incredible
(40:03):
work working with other black women, and so they actually
may be a good match for you, but you might
not know that if you are not open to seeing
if somebody else might be a good match. Word dropping.
As people are looking for therapists, especially now because very gratefully,
(40:27):
for the first time ever there's this mass movement to
love yourself, to heal yourself, to get the tools that
you don't naturally have, and it is gorgeous. It's so exciting.
And also for those that are coming to healing work
for the first time, something I speak to a lot
on this show. On this show, Dr Joy is taking
(40:48):
your time to research and um date a little bit
in this space, for lack of a better word, because
as with any other field, as within the other anything,
even with therapists, you have your extraordinary, you have your good,
you have your solid, you have your mediocre, and there
(41:11):
are therapists that are not good at what they do.
It is every This exists in every field and every
walk of life, high and low. So you can't just
think because someone has that title that that will be
your perfect fit easily or that will be enough. Um So,
any insight that you can share with everyone about really
how to gain deeper insight on if the therapist is
(41:35):
a good therapist quote unquote right, yeah, And I want
to take that a stuff further mean, because somebody can
be a good therapist, but not a good therapist for you, right,
you know, because again, therapy is such a human relationship
so much of what actually is doing the work and
healing is the relationship that you have with your therapist.
And so somebody might be great, but they might just
(41:57):
not be a great fit for you. And it doesn't
mean that they're a bad therapist or that you're a
bad client. It just says something about the dynamic that
maybe it's just not what you need maybe in that
moment um. So I also use a lot of that
kind of dating language. Um, although of course their boundaries
in your therapeutic relationship, but it is usist like that's
(42:19):
not approgram we don't want to go there, but but
it is a series of kind of like getting to
know these people. So the great thing is that a
lot of therapists have a lot of information about themselves
out available to the public now. So um, many of
us have websites where you can learn more about our practice. Um,
a lot of therapists create content or you might find
(42:42):
YouTube videos or Instagram videos or ticktok's or you know,
Twitter posts that will give you a little bit of
an insight around how they speak. You know, because sometimes
therapists have a particular way of relating that you absolutely
know like, oh, this probably wouldn't work for me, and
you can probably get a sense of that from a
tick talk or from a YouTube video. Um, so doing
(43:03):
your research is really important. And then the other thing
is that a lot of therapists will give you like
a free ten to fifteen minute consultation to ask any
additional questions you have after you've done your research. Um,
but as therapists were also listening for whether we feel
like we would be a good therapist for you, right,
um you know. So the other thing that you want
to pay attention to is whether they actually have training
(43:25):
and expertise in the thing that you're coming for. Um.
You know, so you might find somebody's YouTube videos and think,
oh they are great, I would love to work with them,
But then they actually are not trained in the thing
or have additional expertise and the thing that you need,
and then that probably is not going to be a
helpful relationship because they may not know enough, um to
you know, to really help you through whatever your concern is.
(43:47):
So hopefully the therapist would tell you that right like, oh,
you know, I love to work with you, but I
actually don't think that this is my area of expertise.
But let me give you some referral. So that's the
other thing about these consultations is that if we hear
you talking about something that we, you know, feel like, okay,
this is not my bag. Then I also have, you know,
a referral network of other colleagues who I think could
(44:07):
maybe do some great work for you, So then I
can maybe refer you to somebody else who could be
a better fit. And I typically tell people, you know,
sometimes you know pretty early on, like Okay, I really
feel like I'm going to be able to do some
good work with this person. But sometimes it takes a
little longer, right because you're trying to feel it out,
and like, Okay, who is this stranger? And I'm telling
them all of my business and they're not saying anything
(44:28):
about themselves. Um, but but I don't want people to
get like four months into therapy still questioning, right, So
even I think early on, even if you're not ready
to maybe share you know, some difficult things, or you're
not quite ready to to kind of take yourself there,
you can get a sense of whether this person is
going to help you to create an environment that will
(44:49):
allow you to get there. So there's nothing wrong with
like warming up and like, Okay, let me feel this
out before I really dive in. But I think there's
should be some indications pretty early on that you feel
safe in the space. You feel comfortable, you don't feel
judged by this person, you don't feel like the need
to to withhold you know, like that it is often
a place that you look forward to. Now, Now, therapy
(45:11):
isn't always easy. I don't want you to hear that, like,
there will be some weeks that you absolutely like, oh,
I don't want to do this, But but it should
feel more of a like, Okay, I'm afraid to do
the work, not I feel uncomfortable in this space. Yeah,
oh who who? You gave us so many tools, you know. Yes,
And because the thing that you don't want to do
(45:34):
is have now therapy be another container for the behavior
that you have done at other points in your life.
So don't go in there and perform. You don't need
to win them over, You don't need to get them
to like you. You don't you know, like, ah, this
is the space to try out your new self. Okay.
My last question, and this is this is actually more
(45:55):
of a personal question. So for choosing a therapist, Um,
if you are someone who is highly self aware, that
has done years and years of work and all different
kinds of therapy. What is the best way to court
a new therapist where you can say I don't need
(46:16):
to like start from scratch or is there a way
to kind of show up if you're someone that has
done therapy in the past, when looking for a new therapist,
to create some baseline of these are the themes I've
worked through. This is where I am now, this is
what I'd like to work towards. How you know, for
those that have kind of been in the therapy world
myself included for a while, and you're looking for something more,
(46:40):
but you don't want to have to start from the
getting to know you phase? What do you do? So
unfortunately having I don't know that there's a way to
get around the getting to know you do through it,
You're you're trying to skip the steps there. So every
new therapist is gonna want to have their own relationship
with you, right And and I hear this a lot,
(47:00):
you know, not necessarily just in the like, I've done
a lot of therapy and so I'm looking for something different.
But um, you know, people who maybe have worked with
the therapist for a while and feel like, Okay, I
don't I don't think I'm getting what I need anymore.
I need something different. They just don't want to have
to like explain all of that bad story anymore. And
I totally get that you don't necessarily need to do that. Um.
So one way around that, if you are interested, is
(47:22):
that you can sign a release with your old therapist
that allows them to give the new therapist records and
you know they can kind of look through and whatever. Um.
But the other thing to to keep in mind is
that you're not necessarily starting with a new therapist in
the same place that you did with the previous therapist. Right,
So if you now are wanting to work on more things,
(47:42):
you know, related to like advancing in your career and
you know whatever comes up there, you won't necessarily have
to talk about the same like issues related to your
childhood with this new therapist because that is not as pressing.
So any therapist that you are talking to is gonna
do what we call an enta where they're getting to
know a little bit more about you and what's bringing
(48:03):
you in. And of course, if you have had therapy before,
you're gonna they're probably gonna ask you, like, okay, tell
me a little bit about your previous experiences, what did
you like, maybe what didn't work. But they're not gonna
necessarily take you digging back through all of those things
that you had to do before, because that's not what
brings you in now. And maybe some of that will
come up, you know, as needed, but it's not where
you're gonna start. So it's not like you're gonna duplicate
(48:26):
what you've done with therapy um in the past. Um so,
But for people who are pretty therapy savvy and like
who have you know, done a lot of different kinds
of work, I think it could be helpful to find
therapists who practice in different kinds of ways. Um so.
As therapists, you know, we all kind of go through
general training, but a lot of us do additional training
and course work on top of like our graduate degree
(48:49):
to specialize in things. So you know, you will hear
a lot of therapist talk about um CBT kindnitive behavioral
therapy um E M d R, which is a therapy
kind of specifically helpful for or um traumatic experiences, but
but a lot there are also some therapists who practice
like psychoanalysis, UM more insight kind of work, and I
(49:09):
tend to think, UM that that kind of works, Like
the more insight driven work is maybe a good place
to kind of look for people who have done a
lot of therapy. So maybe you're not necessarily looking for
symptom reduction, you're looking more like, Okay, help me understand
these patterns, and you know, I don't quite feel like
I'm relating to people in the way I want. Insight
driven work may be a better UM option there. And
(49:31):
group therapy so that is also something that a lot
of people have not tried that I think can be
incredible because there are insights and breakthroughs that you can
make in group therapy that it would take like months
to get to with your individual therapist, just because there
are more people, right like, there are more people for
you to interact with, and more people kind of you know,
awaken things in you. UM. So group therapy I think,
(49:52):
if you can find it is also another option for
people who maybe have done a lot of therapy. This
could be a different experience for you to kind of
gain some greater in sight. M I love that. And
it's also so powerful to watch someone being facilitated as
they're as they're working through something. You know, it gives
you kind of procedure for yourself for changes how you
(50:12):
relate in your in your relationships. Wow mm hmm, Dr Joy,
thank you. I am just I love being in conversation
with you. I had the pleasure of being on your
show Therapy for Black Girl podcast and I did a
meditation there. So anyone that is really loving this episode, um,
(50:33):
please check out that episode two and all the others
that Dr Joy does. Your new book, Sisterhood Heels is
set to release this coming summer. We need this, We
need this week. Thank you, Thank you so much. Always
a pleasure. Thank you so much. M M. Thank you
(50:56):
once again Dr Joy, Hard and Bradford for joining us
on this really really expansive episode. And just take a second,
you know, let's let's do a little soul work. Take
a second after this episode clicks off, before you kind
of jump into the rest of whatever you're doing. And
I want you to jest for your soul work this week.
(51:17):
I want you to start to notice, how do you
define the word friendship? How do you define the word
sisterhood or brotherhood? How do you uniquely define an experience
(51:43):
the word community and just allow that to kind of
go back and forth in your mind for the rest
of today, for tomorrow. You have a notebook nearby, maybe
drop those downs the words friendship, brotherhood, sisterhood, community, And
(52:07):
as you think of those words, I want you to
really challenge yourself to not just give it maybe the
top of mind definition and well, sisterhood it's a grouping
of women or community, you know, various people coming together.
Really think of what those words have looked like or
not in your life over the course of your entire life. So,
(52:31):
how did you experience friendship as a child, How did
you experience friendship as a teen, a young adult, someone
in your twenties and your thirties and your forties. How
did that word evolve? How did that experience evolve? How
was it felt by you? Get a little surgical with
(52:54):
the way that you're investigating these words, and do the
same thing with sisterhood. What are thoughts or noticings about
sisterhood at various stages of your life from childhood through now?
And then after you spent a few days letting that
kind of roll through your mind, let's take it to
another step. And I want you to think of what
(53:19):
all of those words terms mean to you now and
how you'd like to feel them or relate to them. So,
for instance, that words sisterhood, if that actually brings up
some charge, some disappointment, some pain from earlier stages in
(53:40):
your life, what is the way you'd like to know
that word now? What could that look like? Now? Opening
yourself to wider friendship and do that with each of
those words. What would you like to be your relationship
with friendship, sisterhood, their community. There's no right or wrong,
(54:04):
It is just your experience and your intention. Investigation is
how we get free. Thank you for listening. If you
have extra time today, take a second go to the
Apple app for podcasts and add a five star rating,
and if you have the time, write a little review.
(54:25):
I appreciated and big love to everyone that has shared.
They're already nomas day. Hey find me on social Let's
connect at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or go
to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're
listening to the show on Apple podcasts, please please please
(54:49):
don't forget to rate, review and subscribe and send this
episode to a friend. Dropping Jim's is the production of
I heart Radio and the Black Effect Network. It's produced
by Jackie's and me, Debbie Brown. For more podcasts from
my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Yeah,
M from grandmothers who whispered in their baby girl ill
two fathers on dimly lit street corners, instructing young soldiers
to always keep their eyes open. You be queen, you
(00:21):
were fired. You will pass through centuries on the hands
of your daughters. They called you wisdom. Proverbs on the
backs of diamond eyed school children who grew into hymnals
recited by amethyst holding urban philosophers who recited neighborhood commandments
out of the windows of restored Alchemedo chariots. To keep
the warmth of their blood. Be wise, be smart, being black,
(00:46):
Opal Brown courts bloodstone and prayer. Be every form of
jim see. King told, scribe, scribe, told son, son, told wife,
wife told her daughter, and daughter told the as this is.
And the ancestors told me that you would come to
give wisdom thousands. They said you would come Dropping Dropping
(01:09):
the Gym. Welcome back to another episode of The Dropping
Gym's podcast. I'm Debbie Brown. This is the show where
we like to settle into a soft place to land,
to unpack ourselves, to grab new tools for the journey,
and to really expand our consciousness for our highest good.
(01:31):
Today's episode is gonna be so doubt oh my gosh. Okay.
So in the pandemic, I had a chance to be
connected with an absolutely brilliant, amazing, pioneering woman in a
mental health space, and we had a chance to be
on a panel together, which then led to a podcast
and led to me just really loving and enjoying so
(01:54):
much that she offers the world. And today we are
ready to dive deep, deep, deep in a way that
helps empower us to make better choices and to have
lives that feel really nourishing, really full, and deeply connected
to the community that we're aligned with. Today's guest is
(02:19):
Dr Joy Harden Bradford. Dr Joy Harder and Bradford is
a licensed psychologist, speaker, founder and CEO of Therapy for
Black Girls, and hosts of its widely popular mental health podcast.
Her work focuses on making mental health topics more relevant
and accessible for Black women, and she specializes in creating
(02:42):
spaces for them to have fuller and healthier relationships with
themselves and others. She is currently writing her first book,
Sisterhood Heels, set to release summer tree. Dr Joy exists
at the intersection of psychology and pop culture or it
is always an honor and a joy to be in
(03:05):
conversation with you. Please welcome to the show, Dr Joy,
Harden Bradford, Thank you so much for having me, Debbie.
Such an honor, Dr Joy. I mean, I feel like
I have yet to have the honor of breathing the
same air as you. But I feel like we've been
so connected since the top of the pandemic, you know that.
(03:26):
I just remember kind of that moment where I think
for many of us, it clicked on of I have
I have more tools to offer in this very scary
moment for so many How are you? Oh, I am
hanging in there, hanging in there, m M yeah, I
(03:48):
feel like it is, you know, really best I kind
of think about it, just kind of putting one foot
in front of the other. Um, you know, because even
though I mean, we're not out of the pandemic right
despite would you know, many would maybe I was believe, Um,
you know, there's still a lot going on, and you know,
just on top of the pandemic, there's just so many
other things happening in the world. Um, and you know, personally,
(04:09):
I'm also completing my first book right now, So I
just feel like there's just been so much chaos and
everything going on, So putting one foot in front of
the other and kind of holding on is how I'm
doing right now. You know. Thank you for that transparency,
because speaking to that, I think something that a lot
of people, um might easily assume, especially with someone like yourself,
(04:35):
that oh, you you don't feel any of this, you
know there. I think for a lot of people who
start on the path, there's this assumption that you'll get
to a point where everything will feel good all the time.
And you know, that's one of the biggest questions people
kind of aim towards me just in my regular life.
It's like, oh, so, what do you consider a challenge?
And I'm like, oh no, No, every day is challenging.
(04:59):
Life is profoundly challenging. I think for me, it's just
the reaction or how long it feels like a personal
experience shifts and it's different. I'm able to come out
of things quicker, or I'm able to hold more neutrality,
or just have tools so that I'm able to come
back to myself sooner. Um, what does that mean for
(05:20):
you when you say you're hanging in there. As someone
that is a leading mental health professional, Yeah, yeah, I
appreciate that debby, because you know, I do think that
there is sometimes that um misconception right that you know,
because we are healing professionals or helping professionals, um, that
we are not impacted. But that could not be further
from the truth. Um. You know. So a lot of
(05:41):
what I'm talking about in terms of hanging in there
is like keeping up with my own mental health, which
involves weekly sessions with my therapist. Um, you know, because
I definitely feel like there has just been so much
anxiety for me in the pandemic, um, just around you know,
keeping myself and my family safe and what does this mean?
And is it okay to travel? And you know, I
(06:03):
mean it just feels like there has been a lot,
and so therapy has been incredibly grounding for me during
this period of the pandeming, but also in writing the
book because I feel like, you know, this has been
a stretch for me professionally, right, Like it's my first book.
It's a new thing that I had not done, um,
And so with any new thing, there's like all these
new challenges and like, oh, I didn't know that that
(06:25):
was hiding in that corner, right, And so having me
having my therapist to talk about all of those things,
which has just been very, very grounding and helpful for me. Wow,
I can't wait to dive into talking about this book
that comes out. But one thing I'm really curious about,
you know, as as you're speaking to especially the way
you were showing up for yourself and for millions of people,
(06:49):
you know, in the midst of the pandemic, did anything
shift about the way you relate to what you do
because I can imagine you're under duress as a being,
as a human, as a woman and with her own
life needs, responsibilities, and you have to show up at
such a high level for those that are coming to you.
Did anything start to shift or were there any observations
(07:11):
about that time. That's such a good question, Debby. So
I think, like you kind of alluded to in the beginning,
like in the very beginning of the pandemic, it felt
like there was a huge need for people who do
the kinds of things that we do, right like this
healing helping, Like Okay, how do we ground ourselves and
make sense at this moment? And so in the beginning
there were all these requests of course, which is how
(07:32):
you are not connected. Initially was a panel for somebody, right, um,
and you know there are all these requests for like
come teach our group like skills to manage this, and
come do this and that, and so initially I think
it felt like, oh, Okay, well I can do this
because I'm home, right, Like I'm not even having to
travel anywhere to do these things. But I think a
(07:53):
couple of months into it, I I really begin to
feel burned out because even though I'm like doing these
presentations and things from home, like, I'm still like on right,
and so so there's still a lot that I'm offering.
And so I think I had kind of fooled myself
into thinking, like, oh, this doesn't feel as strenuous as
my schedule was before when I was you know, in
(08:13):
a different city a couple of times a month and
you know, really kind of on the road. And so
one I think it really caused me to like re
reimagined like what busy felt like. So it didn't feel
busy in the same way, but it was still you know,
like extending myself in like holding space for people who
are all afraid, right, like we're all just trying to
(08:35):
figure out what's happening, And so I think it really
led me to reimagine, like, Okay, you still have to
slow down, right, Like you still can't just be going, going, going,
even if it's just in your bedroom doing these presentations.
And then I think the next thing though, is that
it also led me to having a much deeper appreciation
for the work that I do, um, because I do
(08:57):
think during the pandemic and I don't even think we
have reached like the peak of the mental health concerns
and issues that we're going to have to have as
people kind of settle out of like what is this
trauma we've all experienced? Right, And so I think it
has led me to also have a much deeper appreciation
(09:18):
for the work that I do, and a much more
um you know, like wanting to be protective of it
because it's going to be needed, right, so, so really
trying to pace myself so that when there is maybe
the greatest need, I still have something left to offer. Ah,
when I tell you, Dr Joy, the way I relate
to everything that you just said, I think myself and
(09:42):
and for for some others that I've spoken to. I
think a lot of the people that were the healers
and the helpers um in that moment in time, we're
kind of just settling into, like I I feel with
my body, I'm just settling into what two years of
that felt like. Because when I really look back at it,
I spent the pandemic in my house, working more than
(10:05):
I've ever worked, and I was showing up, and you
know it, it did feel like there was ease to
it because I could, you know, have a dress top,
but have my pajama bottoms or you know, you feel
comfortable because you're with your things and I have, you know,
my favorite things in the fridge within reach, and you know,
so there was this comfort in this holding. But I
(10:26):
look back and I said, Wow, in the pandemic, I
facilitated all of this healing work. And I was in
the midst of a divorce, and I was raising a
child who was two years old, and and and I
was in a pandemic too, you know. And it's just
been really interesting seeing the gifts but also really seeing
(10:48):
the fatigue of that. And I think it's just starting
to come online for some of us as the world
quote unquote gets back to normal whatever that means. Whatever means,
Oh okay, you are in the midst of writing your
first book, Dr Joy, and when I have a chance
(11:09):
to kind of read up on what it was about,
I feel so excited because this conversation your book let
me start by saying, is called Sisterhood Heels and it's
set to release summer. That title, Sisterhood Heels is so powerful,
(11:30):
and I think we are in the midst of creating
an entirely new template for what friendship can look like,
and especially friendship among women and Black women. There seems
to be this evolution in the air, this new understanding
of emotional intelligence that people are trying to connect to.
(11:51):
So what is this book about? Tell me that thing? Excited?
I feel like saying, need to chat with you about
this debby, because I've also heard you talk about this,
so I know that this is something that's important to
you as well. Um you know, but when I think
about like who we have been as black women, and
like what our history and the country has been and
(12:12):
in the world, a lot of our surviving and thriving
is connected to one another. And I think I have
seen that even more so in the pandemic right just around,
like mutual aid exchanges and um, you know, offering what
you have to your community and to your neighbors and
all of those kinds of things. And so to me
(12:34):
it is crystal clear, as it always has been, that
to get through this thing called life, it has to
be together, that we need to do this thing together.
And so the book is really all about a lot
of my experience has been in facilitating group therapy, and
so the book is really about the lessons and things
that I have learned from group therapy that can also
(12:55):
help us in our individual sisterhoods. So how do we
pay attention to the different dyning amics that happened in
sisterhoods and the changes and if unfortunately a sisterhood has
to end, how do you navigate that in a way
that's as compassionate and kind as possible. Mm hmmm mmmm Okay,
(13:16):
take my money. Wow, God, this is so needed. This
is so needed, And to what you said, you know,
a moment ago, this is so important to me and
it's something especially as it relates to boundaries with people
and how we can have boundaries with kindness and compassion
that a friendship kind of gently falling off. It doesn't
(13:38):
have to be beef. We we can still think fondly
of each other and just still move forward with our lives.
Like these are things that haven't been naturally kind of
shared with so many of us or role models in
any way. I would love to start by grounding this
and having, especially for everyone listening, Dr Joy, what would
(13:58):
be what would you consider to be a healthy dynamic,
a healthy template a friendship? What should healthy friendship feel like,
look like, be experienced as That's a big question. Um.
So the first thing that comes to mind for me
is reciprocal. Right, So it should feel like there is
(14:19):
space for everybody in the circle to kind of feel
like they are getting their needs met but also meeting
the needs of other people. Um. And I think when
you talk about boundaries like you just did, that is
where we often see that not happening. Right. So sometimes
there are certain friends who are kind of stepping up
a lot, and then there is no space or other
people are not really kind of doing their part. So
(14:40):
the first thing is reciprocal. Um. I also think that
it is a space where everybody feels celebrated. Um. You know,
so when we think about a circle, like there is
no one part of a circle that is like bigger
or stronger, like we all come together to make the circle.
And so when I think about healthy friendship, I think
about a space where everybody feels so abrated and you
(15:01):
are able to have your moment, but it doesn't diminish
my moment or what can happen for me. Um So,
a space where everybody really feels celebrated, and also a
space where conflict can be resolved in healthy way. So
I think when people here conflict, they often want to
run in the opposite direction. But conflict is natural and normal,
like it just means we maybe disagree on some things,
(15:22):
and conflict actually can make your relationship stronger. But what
really deteriorates our relationships is an avoidance of the conflict,
Like we don't want to have the hard conversations, we
don't want to save a thing, we don't want to
address the elephant in the room, and it actually makes
our relationships weaker. Um So, I think healthy friendships also
involved an ability to really handle conflict. Oh okay, hold on,
(15:46):
because I already wrote I wrote some notes. I want
to go back the first. The first the first pillar
that you spoke to was the word reciprocal. What is
that definition? And in relationship I found and I had
this clip that that a lot of people saw last
year where I was saying I'm not available for anything
(16:09):
that's not mutually beneficial. And you know, I think everyone's vocabulary,
the way they relate to words is different, so so
many got it. But then some people are like, mutually beneficial,
so someone has to do something for you back, and
you know, and it's like, okay, so instead of mutually beneficial,
let's use the term mutually supportive, let's use the term reciprocal.
(16:29):
I think a lot of people when they hear those words,
they have this idea of more of a monetary exchange
or something that is like you did this check, now
I will do this for you. And you know, something
that I've tried to share with people is like even
gratitude as reciprocity. You know, even something like a heartfelt
(16:51):
gratitude and appreciation for what I'm giving feels reciprocal to
me because there is something for me in it as well.
There is some thing that fills me, you know, what
is reciprocal in in the relationship sense. M I think
of it in the simplest form, It's like a natural
kind of given, take and you're right, Like, it's not
(17:13):
a score card. It's not like a tally, like, Okay,
I did two things, and so now next week you
have to do two things for me. I think it
is more of a feeling of being like in a
relationship where you know that they have your back and
you also have theirs, right, So it doesn't have to
mean I, you know, did five things nice for you,
and so now you gotta do seven. It is more like,
do you feel like if you called on them in
(17:34):
your time of need, they would be there? And I
think it's important to think about, you know, like we
all are human, right, and so there's all kinds of
things that are often happening in our own lives. So
there may not be times where we can be there
for a friend in the ways that we want to.
But I think when you look at the overall picture,
the overall history of a friendship, does it feel like
(17:55):
more often than not, this is somebody who you know
is in your corner, who you can call when times
are tough and vice versa. Right, Like, it should should
not feel like a one sided kind of thing where
you're the one always making the calls, always texting, always
doing the planning, like it should feel like everybody has
a part in this friendship, and everybody's part doesn't have
(18:16):
to be the same kind of part, you know, I
think um in some friendship dynamics, it's like, well, I
threw a big party for you. I wanted a big
party too, and it's like, but are you the are
you the person that's really good at that? Does that
person know how to do that? Did you tell them
you wanted that? You know, I think it's it's as
we expand this conversation, it's so important to know that
(18:40):
we should be bringing our strengths to our friendship. We
should be bringing our gifts to our friendship, which means
we'll all be kind of adding to it in so
many different ways. You know, I want to touch on
something you just said that because I think this is important.
So the idea that I threw you a big party
and so then I expected that you would also throw
me a party, was that expectation actually voiced. So that
(19:02):
is one of those things that I think also gets
in the way of us having really healthy, full of
relationships is that we feel like friendships should be natural, right,
Like it kind of feels like, oh, we go to
school together, you know, in our childhood, that is how
we become friends. Right when you are grown up, you
have to work a little harder at that. And sometimes
what what is often missing is that we don't learn
that we have to actually voice those expectations and the
(19:25):
same way we would do in romantic relationships, it's important
to do that in in platonic friendships as well in
other relationships. So I think that unvoiced expectation and the
idea that they should just know that you wanted that
to happen, Well, how would they know if you didn't
tell them? And it doesn't make them a bad friend
because they didn't do it, because you didn't let them
know that that was actually an expectation. Wow, wow, Wow,
(19:50):
everybody listening, and I want you to sit in the
first second, take a friend, See how that feels, See
where you land and that equation. Just notice it. Wow
for for those listening, because I think, you know, especially
for for generations that came before. Right now, we've done
an immense amount of unpacking major major consciousness blocks and
(20:17):
concepts over just the last handful of years. Right we
have doven into women, um, you know, sexuality. We have
dived into race deeper than we've ever gone. Multiple cultures
and that experience, especially within America, there have been so
many unpackings in a short time. We're all kind of
(20:40):
processing that. And I think you know something that many
are coming to notice is a lot of us grew
up in communities and households where the adults were emotionally
immature and there was just not a role modeling of
behavior that can lead you in a life where you
(21:00):
feel like a healthy, functioning adult that can meet your
own needs. Um. So, I think you know a lot
of people that are even in friendships and communities that
they do love, they don't know anything different. It may
not be in the plan for them to uproot and
find a new tribe. Are there ways to kind of
bring some healing and to upgrade the way we are
(21:23):
in friendships with each other without having to find new friends?
Mm hmmm, I mean yeah, that's basically the premise of
the book is is this idea that you know, and
you're right, like a lot of us have not come
from homes where that was role model for us. And
you know, generations and the generation before them, like a
lot of what they had to do was really survival based, right, Like,
(21:44):
so there were decisions that they made that unfortunately impacted
us in some ways that you know, didn't really foster
our emotions, but in a lot of ways, it was
what they felt like they had to do. But I
do think because we are having these kinds of conversations
right now, it provides an excellent operace munity for us
to be able to do that healing work with one another. Right,
So can I say to you, as my sister, out
(22:06):
that hurt and that doesn't mean that the friendship ends.
It just means that this is now an opportunity for
us to talk about it and how can I hold
you accountable? How can you learn from that situation? And
did not mean that you're a bad person? Right, I
think we have to really look at our defensiveness and
how that often comes up when we've heard someone. But
(22:27):
it doesn't mean that you're bad. It just means out
that hurt me and I want to talk about how
we can continue to be in relationship and you not
do that thing, or you not hurt me in that
same way in the future. So I think our sister
circle really provide an important opportunity for us to actually
do that healing work with one another. Wow. Wow, I'm
so excited for all of us this this time of
(22:51):
they're just being more space for vulnerability, and they're being
like space for being in practice with the things that
you just didn't know, you know. I feel like there
was and as much grace for those processes or they're
just weren't as many people trying to do it at
the same time previously. Yeah, and you you use a
very important word there, Davy, practice right, Like we are
(23:13):
all really just practicing being human, like there is no perfection.
And as many you know, workshops that we go to
and books we read and podcasts we listen to, like,
we're all just practicing. And so I think it is
really important for us to be grace gracious with one another. Um.
But I think it it had there has to be
some limits to that, right, So you don't want to be, um,
(23:33):
extending so much grace that you're actually betraying yourself, right
you know. So I think that there's sometimes work that
we need to do individually, um, that that needs to
happen before we're really able to kind of be in
circles in full ways. Um. So I think that again,
back to our earlier conversation around boundaries, like you can't
continue to let somebody kind of overstep your boundaries and
(23:55):
and not kind of redraw them and say, Okay, I
would like to still being reallyationship with you, but this
is what it looks like. So maybe that looks like
less access, Maybe that looks like, you know, just more
spread out you know when we get together. But I
don't think that you want to offer so much grace
that you are then betraying yourself. Thank you for saying that,
because the boundaried grace is what we're after. That passion
(24:20):
extended to self first then others is what we're after.
M Yeah, and I think you know giving you know, again,
back to our earlier conversation about just how training and
how much has happened in the past couple of years.
I think that that is also something that impacts our relationships,
is that we are trying to like offer with not
(24:41):
from the overflow. Right, So the idea is that you
re feel yourself so that you are able to be
in relationship with others from your overflow. But if you
are all tapped out, that maybe why you're a little
cranky with your friends. Or where you're feeling like, oh,
I don't want to answer this call right, So it
does really have it. It goes back to really making
sure that we're taking care of ourselves and doing the
(25:02):
kinds of things that we need to do so that
we can actually be in healthy relationship to other people.
Drop One of the things, UM, I was finding that
(25:27):
I was getting a certain kind of comment back in
relation to anytime I put up content around friendships, and
there was, UM, I'll give you a scenario, and I
would love to know if you would walk us through
what this process is. So some people that are in
friendship for for many, friendship is your created family. You
(25:49):
know that that is maybe your safe splace, safe space
for the first time, but it also sometimes become becomes
the space where you project everything that happened to you
prior to the friendship, and it becomes a space where
you kind of have toddler childlike Brady behavior that maybe
you weren't allowed to have with your parents. And so
(26:11):
I think, you know, something that people were saying to
me is, well, you know, I tried to talk to
this friend about this, but you know they don't even
treat the X that dog them out the way they
go off on me, or they treat the guy they
only dated for a month with more grace or more understanding.
But there's all this expectation on me. What is that
(26:32):
dynamic when we are projecting on other people some of
that original wounding? What is that? Damny? I feel like
you have like an early copy of this book, and
you clearly do not, because there is no early copy
of the book, yet I would like one and are connected.
(26:54):
So so what you're talking about, and again why I
think group therapy can be very powerful. What you're which
you're basically talking about. There is a term in group
therapy called the recapitulation of the family unit. And so
what often happens in a group of strangers of if
we're talking about group therapy, is that there will be
members of the group who will pull things from you
(27:16):
that remind you of your original family unit. So you
find yourself acting out towards a group member as though
they are your mother, and clearly it's not about them.
It is what they have arisen and awoken in you,
and in our sister circles, in our friendship circles, the
same kind of thing happens, like it is still a
(27:37):
group dynamic. And so when you find yourself acting out
or um, maybe wanting to be brady so to speak,
or you know, being super selfish, it is very likely
that what's happening is that some of those childhood wounds
or childhood areas that have not been addressed are present
and you actually don't even know it. And that's something
that often is playing out on the subconscious, So we
(27:57):
don't always know this is what's happened. And so I
think being able to have some of this language like hey,
they aren't actually reacting to me, They are reacting to
the thing that my presence has now awoken in them
that they have not dealt with. And so I think
being able to again have honest conversations, you know. And
the more we know about our friends and the more
(28:18):
we know about their history, it is sometimes easier to
kind of see that. Um. But but I don't want
us to kind of try to play therapists with our friends, right.
It's not about us trying to do the work of,
you know, therapizing and psychoanalyzing our friends. But I do
think it can be helpful to be able to call
call attention to like, hey, I wonder what's going on here, Like,
I'm noticing this dynamic where it feels like you're able
(28:40):
to extend grace to other people and it doesn't feel
like you're able to do that with me. I wonder
if you've noticed that, right, And so really just kind
of calling attention to these things, because of course they
have been like we are with these people, like you said,
they are our creative family, and what that means is
that we then create some of those same dynamics that
we had in our families origin who who Uh this book,
(29:09):
Oh my gosh, this is gonna be so powerful again.
I'm gonna say this title and I hopefully by the
time this airs you can get that pre order on
Sisterhood Heels. It will be out this summer three. Dr
joy Hard and Bradford. God, this book is so needed
right now, and I'm so excited for everyone that picks
(29:30):
it up, because understanding this changes your life. Understanding this
brings the ease that everyone is talking about. Ease isn't
just you know, like this is a moment where so
many of us are reclaiming ease rest but what that
means is like really doing the work to clean up
(29:51):
your life to pack in the empty places more love.
So that eases is really the natural state, not the avoidance. UM.
And this book we we need to clean up our lives.
We need to edit the intimate facets of our lives,
our friendships, our households, how we show up in the world,
(30:12):
and our work. Ah. So, Debby, I want to I
want to turn the table a little bit because I
would love to have this conversation with you. So one
of the things in doing the research for the book,
but one of the things that kept coming up was
how friendship dynamics changed after somebody got engaged, are married,
and so you know, it didn't always. I think the
(30:34):
common thing people think is like, oh, somebody was jealous,
and so you know, they I got I got married first,
and so then they got jealous and in the friendship ended. UM.
And I'm wondering in some of the posts that you have,
you know, put up around friendship, has this conversation come
up for you or do you have personal experience or
thoughts about like why that dynamic changes when there has
been like the presence of an engagement or a wedding. Oh,
(30:58):
this is spicy, Dr Joydan And this is It's so
funny because just this past weekend, I was hanging out
with some friends and I was talking about my experience
with some of my bridesmaids when I got married, and
it was so interesting because there was one person who
is no longer in my life. It was it was
(31:21):
it was shocking yet not you know, um, but it was.
It was fascinating to watch and confusing. Where I remember
I got engaged and all of a sudden I found
out way after the wedding all the ways they were
trying to sabotage the wedding, like not spending out invites
(31:41):
to things like not inviting people to things that I
asked because they had a personal issue with them, which
created a rift for me and that person. UM. And
I've even heard from people, you know, situations where someone
decided to get pregnant just because they wanted to have
something going on to talk about while their friend was
(32:02):
in their new marriage, and it's it's fascinating. It's absolutely
fascinating what comes up. And I was getting a ton
of those responses of the main way that people were
um responding with this dynamic doctor joy was around just
feeling like they had lost something more than anything like
it was more of a feeling of I've been abandoned
(32:26):
or I won't have my needs met anymore. Um. And
you know, to my ear, that also sounds like some
of those deeper woundings, those projections, those kind of throwing
your needs and worth on someone else. Um. But that
was the leading thing. People just feeling sad, feeling like
now they'd have less m Yeah, I completely agree with that.
(32:46):
That is my assessment as well, is that oftentimes what
happens in those situations is that grief is triggered, right,
and we don't think about it as grief, because one
we often think about grief only is like the death
of a loved one, right, But there's all these other
ways that we experience grief. And I think changing changes
in a relationship that is super important to us. Even
(33:08):
though it's a happy time maybe for our friend, I
think we have real trouble, like Jex supposing that to
like out, I feel like now I'm going to lose them, right,
and so I feel like we need to do a
better job of having conversations around like, I'm really happy
for you, but I'm also a little worried about what
this changes for us and like sad about the fact
(33:29):
that our dynamic won't of course be able to be
the same as it was, you know. So I think
all of this acting out that we sometimes see is
really a grief response that people just don't recognize and
don't have the language for. Yeah, and then sometimes for
some people that that thing kicks in where you say, well,
let me just think this ship because then at least
it's my choice. Yep, you know you're gonna get in
(33:52):
front of it, you know. So, so that is it
was my decision. What what do you think of the
story I told about the Bridesmaid? Yeah, I mean I
definitely think, you know, there was clearly something going on there,
and I wonder if you saw signs, like looking back,
were there are things that you recognize even before you
got engaged that indicated like something maybe a little off
(34:15):
or something kind of feels unsettled about this person, you know? Yes,
And and that was a lot of my work, um,
and in listening to my intuition, Like I have a
very particular style of integrity that I moved in the
world with and I really believe in spiritual hygiene, and
I think that good choice making compassionate choice making. It's
(34:38):
incredibly important to my life. So I used to get
those kind of worlds blurred where I felt like I
had to. When I saw people that weren't in integrity,
it was because they just didn't know and I needed
to show or I needed to help. So I am
a super super reformed um vixer and people pleaser. I'm
(35:00):
the person that you still want to do everyone's work
for them and just no, no, no, but look read
this book and didn't it and I was taking it
all on and gratefully that is no longer my life. Um,
but yeah, you know, when I look back at that friendship,
absolutely and we had been childhood friends, and I saw
those traits in that person. I remember clearly having making
(35:22):
mental notes way back at ten, noticing how they were
kind of treating people or making things about them, and
I just let it go on for way too long,
and then I saw the biggest you know, because when
things aren't super affecting you, when they're more like kind
of tiny irritations, it's just kind of like, yeah, that's
them being them. But when you keep that dynamic in
(35:44):
in your life, when they have the opportunity to do
it at a higher stake, they will, and so you
need a curb it when you first notice it. It
is so important. M Yeah, and who knows, you know
what kind of abandonment kinds of you know, his three
there me have been you know, I don't know of
course this person um or what got activated, but cluely
(36:05):
something got activated with your engagement, which then led to
all of this behavior, kind of really stepping up a match. Yeah,
lasting piece, lasting piece to all evolved. Um I have
a very specific question for you. This is I'm so curious.
You know, Dr Joy therapy for Black girls has been
(36:26):
such a leader in the mental health space. One of
the one of the you know, data points around therapy
for black women is that only five percent of us
therapists are black. Can you speak to the importance of
speaking with therapists that have the deeper understanding of your
(36:47):
cultural needs, but specifically some of the personality traits, um experiences,
and trauma that seemed to happen within particular communities. Um,
Is it isn't in portant to find someone that looks
like you or understands your experience to unpack yourself with. Yeah,
So I would say it is important if it feels
(37:10):
important to you, um, you know, because that won't necessarily
be like a qualifier for a lot of people, right,
But I do think, um, at least my experience has
been there for a lot of black women, that does
feel very very important because there are some things that
you just assume that another black woman will understand, right,
Like so when I think about like going through the
(37:32):
pandemic and then you know all of the continued racial injustice,
you know, George Floyd being killed, Brianna Taylor being killed.
You know, there are ways that I think black women
took in those stories and experience those things that you know,
you just get right. And so if I came to
the session the week after finding out about Brianna Taylor,
(37:55):
I'm not gonna have to go into too much backstory
with my therapist because my therapist is also a black woman, um,
because there's some things that I know that she understands
because she's also a black woman in this country. So
I think for people who that is important, it is
absolutely okay to kind of change that, to to look
out that look for that in your search. But as
(38:15):
you mentioned, there are not that many of us, right,
and so what that means is that, you know, either
people end up on waiting lists or people will see
therapists who aren't necessarily black women. So that means me um,
that you see a black man or somebody else another
person of color. But what that means for other therapists
who are not black is that there are some work
(38:37):
that they need to do so that they are creating
conditions that are safe for black women to come into
therapy to unpack these kinds of things. So, you know,
there are lots of microaggressions and ruptures that happened with
non black therapists because there's this questioning of reality, right, like,
didn't that really happen in the way that you are
saying it? Or you know, now, tell me why you
(38:59):
would be so impacted by, you know, this thing that
has nothing to do with you, right, Other therapists really
need to make sure that they are doing their own
work so that they're not perpetrating those kinds of things
that then make it difficult for people to even continue
to believe in therapy. You know. So because a lot
of our families, there's not a lot of history of
you know, parents and grandparents and aunties and uncle's going
(39:20):
to therapy. A lot of times we are the first
ones who may be having that experience, and so if
we don't have a good experience, then that sometimes leaves
us feeling like, oh, this isn't actually helpful, This made
me feel worse. So why would I pay, you know,
somebody to go and do this thing. So I do
think it is if it feels important to you to
find a therapist who matches you in some way, it
(39:40):
is absolutely okay to do that. But I do think
that there are also a lot of therapists who may
not match you, right, And so I typically encourage people
to just be open to surprises, right, but not to
you know, betray yourself again by like continuing in weeks
and weeks of therapy with somebody who's like perpetuating racism
against you. Absolutely not. There are some therapys who have
done their work. They have done um, you know, incredible
(40:03):
work working with other black women, and so they actually
may be a good match for you, but you might
not know that if you are not open to seeing
if somebody else might be a good match. Word dropping.
As people are looking for therapists, especially now because very gratefully,
(40:27):
for the first time ever there's this mass movement to
love yourself, to heal yourself, to get the tools that
you don't naturally have, and it is gorgeous. It's so exciting.
And also for those that are coming to healing work
for the first time, something I speak to a lot
on this show. On this show, Dr Joy is taking
(40:48):
your time to research and um date a little bit
in this space, for lack of a better word, because
as with any other field, as within the other anything,
even with therapists, you have your extraordinary, you have your good,
you have your solid, you have your mediocre, and there
(41:11):
are therapists that are not good at what they do.
It is every This exists in every field and every
walk of life, high and low. So you can't just
think because someone has that title that that will be
your perfect fit easily or that will be enough. Um So,
any insight that you can share with everyone about really
how to gain deeper insight on if the therapist is
(41:35):
a good therapist quote unquote right, yeah, And I want
to take that a stuff further mean, because somebody can
be a good therapist, but not a good therapist for you, right,
you know, because again, therapy is such a human relationship
so much of what actually is doing the work and
healing is the relationship that you have with your therapist.
And so somebody might be great, but they might just
(41:57):
not be a great fit for you. And it doesn't
mean that they're a bad therapist or that you're a
bad client. It just says something about the dynamic that
maybe it's just not what you need maybe in that
moment um. So I also use a lot of that
kind of dating language. Um, although of course their boundaries
in your therapeutic relationship, but it is usist like that's
(42:19):
not approgram we don't want to go there, but but
it is a series of kind of like getting to
know these people. So the great thing is that a
lot of therapists have a lot of information about themselves
out available to the public now. So um, many of
us have websites where you can learn more about our practice. Um,
a lot of therapists create content or you might find
(42:42):
YouTube videos or Instagram videos or ticktok's or you know,
Twitter posts that will give you a little bit of
an insight around how they speak. You know, because sometimes
therapists have a particular way of relating that you absolutely
know like, oh, this probably wouldn't work for me, and
you can probably get a sense of that from a
tick talk or from a YouTube video. Um, so doing
(43:03):
your research is really important. And then the other thing
is that a lot of therapists will give you like
a free ten to fifteen minute consultation to ask any
additional questions you have after you've done your research. Um,
but as therapists were also listening for whether we feel
like we would be a good therapist for you, right,
um you know. So the other thing that you want
to pay attention to is whether they actually have training
(43:25):
and expertise in the thing that you're coming for. Um.
You know, so you might find somebody's YouTube videos and think,
oh they are great, I would love to work with them,
But then they actually are not trained in the thing
or have additional expertise and the thing that you need,
and then that probably is not going to be a
helpful relationship because they may not know enough, um to
you know, to really help you through whatever your concern is.
(43:47):
So hopefully the therapist would tell you that right like, oh,
you know, I love to work with you, but I
actually don't think that this is my area of expertise.
But let me give you some referral. So that's the
other thing about these consultations is that if we hear
you talking about something that we, you know, feel like, okay,
this is not my bag. Then I also have, you know,
a referral network of other colleagues who I think could
(44:07):
maybe do some great work for you, So then I
can maybe refer you to somebody else who could be
a better fit. And I typically tell people, you know,
sometimes you know pretty early on, like Okay, I really
feel like I'm going to be able to do some
good work with this person. But sometimes it takes a
little longer, right because you're trying to feel it out,
and like, Okay, who is this stranger? And I'm telling
them all of my business and they're not saying anything
(44:28):
about themselves. Um, but but I don't want people to
get like four months into therapy still questioning, right, So
even I think early on, even if you're not ready
to maybe share you know, some difficult things, or you're
not quite ready to to kind of take yourself there,
you can get a sense of whether this person is
going to help you to create an environment that will
(44:49):
allow you to get there. So there's nothing wrong with
like warming up and like, Okay, let me feel this
out before I really dive in. But I think there's
should be some indications pretty early on that you feel
safe in the space. You feel comfortable, you don't feel
judged by this person, you don't feel like the need
to to withhold you know, like that it is often
a place that you look forward to. Now, Now, therapy
(45:11):
isn't always easy. I don't want you to hear that, like,
there will be some weeks that you absolutely like, oh,
I don't want to do this, But but it should
feel more of a like, Okay, I'm afraid to do
the work, not I feel uncomfortable in this space. Yeah,
oh who who? You gave us so many tools, you know. Yes,
And because the thing that you don't want to do
(45:34):
is have now therapy be another container for the behavior
that you have done at other points in your life.
So don't go in there and perform. You don't need
to win them over, You don't need to get them
to like you. You don't you know, like, ah, this
is the space to try out your new self. Okay.
My last question, and this is this is actually more
(45:55):
of a personal question. So for choosing a therapist, Um,
if you are someone who is highly self aware, that
has done years and years of work and all different
kinds of therapy. What is the best way to court
a new therapist where you can say I don't need
(46:16):
to like start from scratch or is there a way
to kind of show up if you're someone that has
done therapy in the past, when looking for a new therapist,
to create some baseline of these are the themes I've
worked through. This is where I am now, this is
what I'd like to work towards. How you know, for
those that have kind of been in the therapy world
myself included for a while, and you're looking for something more,
(46:40):
but you don't want to have to start from the
getting to know you phase? What do you do? So
unfortunately having I don't know that there's a way to
get around the getting to know you do through it,
You're you're trying to skip the steps there. So every
new therapist is gonna want to have their own relationship
with you, right And and I hear this a lot,
(47:00):
you know, not necessarily just in the like, I've done
a lot of therapy and so I'm looking for something different.
But um, you know, people who maybe have worked with
the therapist for a while and feel like, Okay, I
don't I don't think I'm getting what I need anymore.
I need something different. They just don't want to have
to like explain all of that bad story anymore. And
I totally get that you don't necessarily need to do that. Um.
So one way around that, if you are interested, is
(47:22):
that you can sign a release with your old therapist
that allows them to give the new therapist records and
you know they can kind of look through and whatever. Um.
But the other thing to to keep in mind is
that you're not necessarily starting with a new therapist in
the same place that you did with the previous therapist. Right,
So if you now are wanting to work on more things,
(47:42):
you know, related to like advancing in your career and
you know whatever comes up there, you won't necessarily have
to talk about the same like issues related to your
childhood with this new therapist because that is not as pressing.
So any therapist that you are talking to is gonna
do what we call an enta where they're getting to
know a little bit more about you and what's bringing
(48:03):
you in. And of course, if you have had therapy before,
you're gonna they're probably gonna ask you, like, okay, tell
me a little bit about your previous experiences, what did
you like, maybe what didn't work. But they're not gonna
necessarily take you digging back through all of those things
that you had to do before, because that's not what
brings you in now. And maybe some of that will
come up, you know, as needed, but it's not where
you're gonna start. So it's not like you're gonna duplicate
(48:26):
what you've done with therapy um in the past. Um so,
But for people who are pretty therapy savvy and like
who have you know, done a lot of different kinds
of work, I think it could be helpful to find
therapists who practice in different kinds of ways. Um so.
As therapists, you know, we all kind of go through
general training, but a lot of us do additional training
and course work on top of like our graduate degree
(48:49):
to specialize in things. So you know, you will hear
a lot of therapist talk about um CBT kindnitive behavioral
therapy um E M d R, which is a therapy
kind of specifically helpful for or um traumatic experiences, but
but a lot there are also some therapists who practice
like psychoanalysis, UM more insight kind of work, and I
(49:09):
tend to think, UM that that kind of works, Like
the more insight driven work is maybe a good place
to kind of look for people who have done a
lot of therapy. So maybe you're not necessarily looking for
symptom reduction, you're looking more like, Okay, help me understand
these patterns, and you know, I don't quite feel like
I'm relating to people in the way I want. Insight
driven work may be a better UM option there. And
(49:31):
group therapy so that is also something that a lot
of people have not tried that I think can be
incredible because there are insights and breakthroughs that you can
make in group therapy that it would take like months
to get to with your individual therapist, just because there
are more people, right like, there are more people for
you to interact with, and more people kind of you know,
awaken things in you. UM. So group therapy I think,
(49:52):
if you can find it is also another option for
people who maybe have done a lot of therapy. This
could be a different experience for you to kind of
gain some greater in sight. M I love that. And
it's also so powerful to watch someone being facilitated as
they're as they're working through something. You know, it gives
you kind of procedure for yourself for changes how you
(50:12):
relate in your in your relationships. Wow mm hmm, Dr Joy,
thank you. I am just I love being in conversation
with you. I had the pleasure of being on your
show Therapy for Black Girl podcast and I did a
meditation there. So anyone that is really loving this episode, um,
(50:33):
please check out that episode two and all the others
that Dr Joy does. Your new book, Sisterhood Heels is
set to release this coming summer. We need this, We
need this week. Thank you, Thank you so much. Always
a pleasure. Thank you so much. M M. Thank you
(50:56):
once again Dr Joy, Hard and Bradford for joining us
on this really really expansive episode. And just take a second,
you know, let's let's do a little soul work. Take
a second after this episode clicks off, before you kind
of jump into the rest of whatever you're doing. And
I want you to jest for your soul work this week.
(51:17):
I want you to start to notice, how do you
define the word friendship? How do you define the word
sisterhood or brotherhood? How do you uniquely define an experience
(51:43):
the word community and just allow that to kind of
go back and forth in your mind for the rest
of today, for tomorrow. You have a notebook nearby, maybe
drop those downs the words friendship, brotherhood, sisterhood, community, And
(52:07):
as you think of those words, I want you to
really challenge yourself to not just give it maybe the
top of mind definition and well, sisterhood it's a grouping
of women or community, you know, various people coming together.
Really think of what those words have looked like or
not in your life over the course of your entire life. So,
(52:31):
how did you experience friendship as a child, How did
you experience friendship as a teen, a young adult, someone
in your twenties and your thirties and your forties. How
did that word evolve? How did that experience evolve? How
was it felt by you? Get a little surgical with
(52:54):
the way that you're investigating these words, and do the
same thing with sisterhood. What are thoughts or noticings about
sisterhood at various stages of your life from childhood through now?
And then after you spent a few days letting that
kind of roll through your mind, let's take it to
another step. And I want you to think of what
(53:19):
all of those words terms mean to you now and
how you'd like to feel them or relate to them. So,
for instance, that words sisterhood, if that actually brings up
some charge, some disappointment, some pain from earlier stages in
(53:40):
your life, what is the way you'd like to know
that word now? What could that look like? Now? Opening
yourself to wider friendship and do that with each of
those words. What would you like to be your relationship
with friendship, sisterhood, their community. There's no right or wrong,
(54:04):
It is just your experience and your intention. Investigation is
how we get free. Thank you for listening. If you
have extra time today, take a second go to the
Apple app for podcasts and add a five star rating,
and if you have the time, write a little review.
(54:25):
I appreciated and big love to everyone that has shared.
They're already nomas day. Hey find me on social Let's
connect at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or go
to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're
listening to the show on Apple podcasts, please please please
(54:49):
don't forget to rate, review and subscribe and send this
episode to a friend. Dropping Jim's is the production of
I heart Radio and the Black Effect Network. It's produced
by Jackie's and me, Debbie Brown. For more podcasts from
my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Yeah,
Host
Devi Brown
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