August 10, 2025 • 38 mins
Titi and Zakiya reminisce about how Dope Labs came to be and talk to some of their favorite science communicators on social media. Raven the Science Maven, Lindsay Ejoh, and Dr. Andre Issacs share how they each used their platforms to bring science to the world.
Dope Labs is where science meets pop culture. Because science is in everything and it’s for everybody.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm t T and I'm Zakiah, and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
Me and as a Kia met back in what was
(00:24):
that twenty e ten.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
To go about the outfits we were wearing, well, I
was wearing dressed like business with bright pink lipstick.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I had a lot of eyeshadow on from my eyebrow
to my lash line, so it had to have been
the twenty tens.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I think you had.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Great bangs, Thank you friend. The rest of it was
not right. It was just fine. When I think about
like us being in grad school and having a good time,
but also being like, hey, we need to have some balance,
you know, pushing each other said and remember I would
(01:03):
set those crazy deadlines, and I was like, I have
to sprint to get this done in the next three weeks.
I'm going to get this many mutants into the chromosome.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I was moving there. I was trying to do a
lot of recombineering, doing a lot of genetic manipulation to
your bacteria.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
These are a lot of words exactly how you're feeling
right now. That exactly how I felt when she was
explained it to me. Yes, girl, my friend is very,
very smart. But if somebody would have told me, oh,
you know, you and Zakia are going to have a
podcast together in a few years, I would have believed them, honestly,
because we we had been saying it. We had been
(01:39):
since true, Like there is evidence on the Internet of
where we were like, oh, we should do.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
A podcast together, we should do a podcast together.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
But you know, lots of people at that time were
saying they wanted to do a podcast. We just actually
did it, which is wild.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
And I think what makes it so wild is just
how rewarding. It's been challenging and reporting, and I think
that makes the reward so much sweeter. You know.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I really appreciate everybody that has been riding with us.
I can remember February fourteenth, twenty nineteen, our first episode
and people were responding and finding us on social media
and saying they liked the episode. Great price memory. Emory,
I go.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
By everybody's Instagram name. Yes, everybody, Yes, I know you
by your handle exactly. The Emory is my cousin in
my head. Honestly. The key key sessions we have in
DMS is just it's top tier.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Kiki, well, we actually got to meet her in person.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh Kiki, my ye, Yes, we did meet her in person.
And it's crazy because when you say Kiky, I was
like our friend Kiki, it's hard to remember that we
did not know these people before the show, right, Cat Purcell,
Cat Percell absolutely absolutely running to our episodes on her
daily runs. Yeah, but even the new folks, the new
(03:02):
folks that have been showing up and saying, hey, I
just found your podcast, we really appreciate y'all as well,
and so welcome, come on, get in here with us.
We're gonna snuggle up real tight and close. But in
this week's lab, we're gonna be talking about what we
do here at DOPE last with just science communication, and
we're gonna be talking to some of our favorite science communicators.
(03:22):
We have Raven the Science Maven, doctor Raven Baxter. She's
a molecular biologist and a science educator. We also have
Lindsay Edo who is a PhD student in neuroscience at
the University of Pennsylvania researching pain. And then we have
doctor Andre Isaacs, who is a chemistry professor at College
of the Holy Cross, and if you are on TikTok
(03:46):
you've seen doctor Isaacs.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
You've seen them, you absolutely have. He is one of
my faves. I can't wait to share these folks stories
because you know, I think people come to science and
stem broadly through many different avenues, right.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I love t t when you share the story of
your grandfather being an engineer. That was the first time
I'd ever heard of engineering was when my I'd asked
my mother, you know what my grandparents did, and she
talked about my grandfather and said that he was an engineer.
And I was like, well, then I shall be an engineer.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Crowned yourself. That's right, yourself, that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I was like, let me tell you, Frederick Akufu, you
did that. You did that, And so he blazed the
trail and I just walked behind him.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Very grateful.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I love your stories about how you got involved in
step because it's all over the place.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
He started it. You started wanting to be a nurse
and then realized, yes, hey girl, you don't have the
stomach for that. Okay, you don't. You said it was
passing out. I was like, oh no, baby, I don't
think I'm in the wrong place, and I went all
the way to being a certified nursing assistant. I was
a CNA, and so then I was like, I can't
(05:03):
go to school for this. I switched to be in
a biology major. But even before that program, summer exposure
programs at North Carolina A and T. That was really
my route into science broadly. That's why I was even
in the nursing area. There was a woman, her name
was Miss Manley. She ran a Saturday program that was
called GAMSEK at North Carolina A and T. It was
a Greensboro area math and science enrichment camp. And I
(05:24):
went on Saturdays, but my mom was going back to school.
I would go to that. We were doing SAT pre SAT,
we were doing programs, We're doing stuff I wasn't even
learning yet. And I was getting such exposure to so
many different things. And in high school I went on
and did I was doing civil engineering over at A
and T, which is wild because you're the engineer exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I didn't know my friend was an engineer too, but
I'm not surprised. She's very, very smart. She could do anything.
But you know, what your story reminds me of is
what doctor Isaac's andre. What he was saying was his
first introduction into stem was also a similar experience where
he got involved because someone else was teaching him chemistry
(06:04):
and it happened to be his uncle.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
It started for me in high school.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I will be the first to say I wanted to
love chemistry so bad, but chemistry didn't love me. When
I was in high school, I really struggled with specifically stoycheometry.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And I.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Know, I know, I'm like balancing equations, that's easy, but
I really struggled, you know, as a high schooler. And
it was my uncle, who back when I lived in Jamaica,
by the way, I grew up in Kingston, Jamaica, who
had this evening school that he taught adults who were
going back to school for to get like high school degrees.
So he said, come to my evening school. I'll help
(06:42):
you with whatever you need. So I went and an
hour later I was a master at stoycheometry. So I think, really,
for me, what that showed there's no subject is impossible.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
You just need to write instruction or instructor.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
And someone who can explain it in a way that's
accessible to you. And in that moment, I recognized that
I could conquer.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Anything, even chemistry, and so I really just took to it.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Went to college, started doing research, was killing all my classes.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
My professors are like, dude, you need to do a PhD.
Are too good at this, and I just kept going.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And I think a lot of it really came back to,
you know, that initial experience of seeing a hurdle that
I didn't think I could cross and having someone just
break it down for me in ways that were accessible
to me, and then I was able to do it.
And so for me, that's definitely key to my own pedagogy.
When I see a student who was struggling, I'm like,
I just need to find a way to make that
(07:37):
student understand this sort of make it connect in a
way that works for them. And I think that's one
of the things many of us as educators need to
really think about.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I think this was one of the guiding principles for
me when I was teaching. I was like, how can
I make this connectment how you're already thinking, what you're
already thinking about.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
When my friend was a professor, Okay, y'all didn't know
the key when she was in her professor era, she
was that girl. Okay, when I tell you I went
to one of her classes, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Good at biology. You already know that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Okay, my friend holds my hand through every biology episode.
I came out of that class like I think I
might be able to be a geneticist. She makes it
so accessible, she roots it and stuff that you're already
thinking about talking about singing.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
And it was just so so good.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
And so you were teaching biology to non non majors,
and so these are folks who don't have the background
and they're trying to get their credits. But let me
tell you something, those students are forever changed.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think that's one of the things I really loved.
I saw a lot of non majors switch to be
a major. Some of them ended up in my research lab.
One of them is a science teacher right now, Kelly
oh DiGeronimo. But it's so cool to see, you know
how these kind of experiences. I had those experiences in
my life. I had a biology teacher. I used to
(09:09):
you know, I went into biology because I had a
biology teacher that was like flowing what you know, and
I said, this is hard, I'll do this. And I
was like I don't know anything. I don't have anything
to flow into.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Hey, come on, I mean it's crazy how one minute
you're just living your life and then you get an
idea and that idea turns into something bigger that you
probably could.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Have never imagined.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And Lindsey, Raven, and Andre had similar experiences to us,
where it's like, how do we get here? We are
doing this podcast, doing something that we really love. Raven,
who you're gonna hear from first, she's a little bit
of an og and so she uses music as a
means to connect with folks.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I remember first discovering Raven.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Hey, it was a lot of feelings, a lot of fun.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
As far as I go.
Speaker 6 (09:57):
You know, music historically has and a means to share
messages and at the same time, music is a language
that unites us all and when it comes to blending
science and music, it really was a no brainer for me.
And so my first music video was called Big Old Geeks,
(10:18):
and it is a rap video that like displays norms
that you see in hip hop culture, you know, especially
like contemporary hip hop culture. We're looking at fast cars,
hot ladies, and bars, and that's what I was giving.
(10:39):
And so it featured me. I was like the main character,
but I also cast in my friends as dancers and
just actresses in the background, and they were all black
women of various shape, sizes, and colors. And the lyrics
I was delivering were very technical, some big old geeks,
but the tennis place was on my ytic sciences talking.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
I kind of like I'm doing both. I'm Biana nothing
you buck periodic. I can like an enzigme and we're
cutting it up. Proteens in the job and we're running.
Speaker 6 (11:08):
Them up the message like, the science is still the
same no matter what I look like or act like.
That video was the first video I put out, and
I kind of took a chance. You know, as a
black woman in science, you don't really get a lot
of liberty right as far as self expression goes, and
so I really took a gamble.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
I'm just like, I know in my.
Speaker 6 (11:30):
Heart that there are other people that need to see this,
and so I'm just going to put this out there.
And that's where my journey started. And I did release
other music and music videos after that, but that's.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Where it all began.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Lindsey and Andre they both use their downtime during the
pandemic to start creating science communication on their social media.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
It's funny.
Speaker 7 (11:51):
I started on TikTok twenty twenty one.
Speaker 8 (11:55):
And I don't know, it was just one of those
like during the COVID, developing a technok things, you.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
Know, I had to do a lot of people.
Speaker 8 (12:05):
So I started watching all these data life videos and
I figured, oh, let me try one, because I figured
not many people know what the day in life of like.
Speaker 7 (12:12):
A neuroscientist is, or even a PhD student.
Speaker 8 (12:15):
So I tried one out and then it randomly got
a lot of traction.
Speaker 7 (12:20):
So I was just like, oh, okay, I'll keep it going.
Speaker 8 (12:24):
And then over time people would ask questions about my
science and my experiments, and that led me to like,
you know, respond to.
Speaker 7 (12:30):
Them, think of other things to talk about.
Speaker 8 (12:31):
And eventually building this pretty big picon platform.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Like many of us, the pandemic changed a lot of things.
And I'll be honest, I had Instagram.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
I didn't have TikTok at an Instagram. I had a Twitter.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I probably had a combined eleven hundred followers on all plastics.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
I just didn't really.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Pulse like that, right, But the pandemic came and you know,
the college was like, hey, faculty, you have a week
to transition your courses to line learning. Go use this
thing called zoom. We've never heard of it, but we
hear it's good. So there I am a zoom and
I went extroverts. So, you know, once you were teaching online,
I got extremely bored and you know, I needed to
(13:15):
get out. I needed to socialize. You know, my friends
are sending me videos and they're like, oh, here's this video.
I'm like, I don't have this app called TikTok. What
am I supposed to do with this? And so I
downloaded it and let me tell you, the rabbit hole
was there. But what was really awesome for me was
as a kid growing up in Jamaica, we have an
affinity for dancing, right, and you all might be familiar
with how it comes about. You know, some DJ creates
(13:36):
a riddim and then the artists sing a song on it,
and then someone creates a dance and pretty soon everyone
in the island is doing the Willy Bones soor or whatever.
And so for me, you know, you go to a
party in Jamaica as a kid, everyone knew the dance
moves and then I go on TikTok.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
And it's the same thing.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
So I was like immediately drawn back to my past
as a kid growing up in jam and seeing the
community that's built her own dance, shared experience of dance
and the knowledge of the moves and all that stuff,
and so.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
I was drawn into it.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
So I started making videos at home by myself, learning
choreography to the Renegade.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
That one was hard. I didn't finish that one. And
you know, one of.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
My students saw a video I posted on our for
you page, and when we went back to campus, when
we were allowed to go back to campus in person,
she's like, Hey, we need to collaborate.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
You can dance. I didn't know you could dance. I'm like,
I didn't know you could dance.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
And what that created was really this community of scientists
who have interests outside of science, including dance, music, theater.
And we built a little community in the lab and
in my classes in the chemistry department, you know, where
we all like learned dances and choreography and showed that
(14:51):
as a scientist you can be multi facetating.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
You didn't have to just be the stereotypical.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Hey, I'm in a basement in a white lab quote
with no personality, no emotion, no skills.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
You know, dancing and science is not my ministry. It
is also not mine.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Okay, y'all don't need to see that, but doctor Isaac's
I'm telling you, if you don't follow him on TikTok,
get to it. You gotta get to it because he's
got the moves, he's.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Funny, smart, it's perfect. We me and my friends. You know,
we are more of calckulers and science. That's true. That's true.
That's true.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
And showing up as ourselves has been really really important
to us. I don't know if we've told this story
on the show, but Zaki, tell these folks about what
happened after our first episode. We got a lot of love,
but we did get a lot of a lot of love,
but we got a little bit of hate.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I know people say just ignore those things, but I
also think those things are indicator when you get hate.
That kind of hate is an indicator of where people
have closed minds or where change needs to happen. When
we first started Dope Labs, people like you said, I
showed us a lot of love, but we diget an
email and I will never forget this. The guy was like,
you're using language like this, You're not sounding professional. Does
(16:22):
it makes you less credible when you talk like this?
I said, baby, this country grammar. You're gonna get it God,
turning to Nelly. Yes, I'm going now, damn Dawn, baby Okay,
I turned to Nelly in here all right? And so
I think you know that also challenges what people think
a scientist sounds like. And so showing up like this
(16:44):
tells you exactly, But I am a scientist. So this
is now what a scientist sounds like. I remember when
you graduated. I'm not gonna point any fingers and name
any names, but somebody said, a scientist doesn't dress like this.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh yes, I always got a lot of well you,
and I say a lot people have commented on the
way that I dress and the way that I you know,
the way that I do things for what feels like forever,
because they just don't feel like it falls in line
with what they feel like someone who's accomplished in this
field looks like.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
And I'm like, well, here, I am right here, I
am existing outside of what you imaginally look at that
open your mind, open your mind.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
It really isn't that much of a stretch. It's just closed,
it's just makeup, it's just hair like.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
These are just the accessories. But the brain is where
it's at. No, that's that's the gym. Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Well, we hear similar stories from Raven and Andre too
about how they had some negative reactions to them before
they even started their science communication and during I.
Speaker 6 (17:49):
Had an incident at one of my former places of
employment where I had a coworker tell me that she
didn't believe that I worked there, and it was my
first day and she threatened to call the police on
me because I was in the faculty mail room.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
And I left that.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
Incident really feeling just charged with this mission to disrupt
the notion of what a scientist looks like, and I
wanted to do it in such an extreme way that
just made the message very clear.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
I do get some pushback, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
There are some folks who think that what I'm doing
is not productive, and what they measure success on right,
is really the number of publications you have instead of
really the number of folks that you've brought into the field.
And so for me, I don't mind the negative criticism,
you know, because what I know for a fact that
the work that I do has had a positive impact
(18:52):
on young folks who emailed me.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I've get like hundreds of emails.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
From high school kids, college kids, even professors were like,
I didn't think a Korean commisary was for me until
I saw your videos. So those are the people who
I'm dotting for, and so the hitters can hit. I'm
trying to bring new folks into the game.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
And with all of this, you know, with all of this, well,
let me not say all of this, because honestly, we're
all getting a lot of really positive feedback. But with
the negative feedback, you know that those kind of thing.
But we still continue to turn our microphones on because
this space needs us, It needs more voices.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Absolutely, we have such a long way to go. Where
are my colleagues?
Speaker 6 (19:36):
You and I are both degreed scientists, experts. There are
so many of us out there, but yet so many
of us don't have platforms to stand on to demonstrate
that expertise, to bring people into scientific conversations in a
constructive way.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
And it's just annoying that.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
That Bill Kny, the science guy, is still the archetype
of science communication in twenty twenty five. There are just
so many opportunities for not only like current scientists, but
aspiring science communicators to fill in that space.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
And carry us forward. So where are we right now?
Speaker 6 (20:20):
People are panicking, I think, especially now with the government,
you know, US government administrations cuts to science and clear
actions against the scientific community at large. We're really facing
a text on science and people are panicking because they
didn't I don't think that many of us could gauge
(20:41):
how severe this would be, and now everyone's trying to
scream into the void on no platform.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
So it is just like, oh.
Speaker 6 (20:55):
My gosh, we have a lot of work to do.
But I'm optimistic, but it's just a daunting It's very daunting.
Speaker 8 (21:03):
I think that it seems like science feels so far
away from so many people right now, especially when it
comes to the cutting edge work that's being done, the
new data that's coming out as we speak and continues
to come out, and what the actual process going through
a research project to get that data really is and
(21:25):
the fact that this is so opaque definitely does not
help the growing mistrust in scientists and the divestment from science.
And it's so frustrating. But I think a lot of
scientists just feel that frustration and just say, oh, this sucks,
let's get back to work. But what if we instead said, Okay,
(21:48):
how about we meet people where they are, share with
them what we're doing and what strides we're making. It's
easy to think that science is a waste of money
when you don't know what's coming out of it.
Speaker 7 (21:58):
Right, it's not right in your face outside of like.
Speaker 8 (22:02):
Pharma, big pharma commercials exactly exactly. So, I think social
media has its flaws, for sure, but it's a really
effective way to show up in the spaces that unbiased,
balanced science usually doesn't reach and spread that message.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I think the way it falls short is in how
it's communicated and the methods through which the information is related.
So there's not a lot of us. I mentioned there's
not a lot of culture in the way we communicate science,
and that's because science is being communicated the way was
communicated in the nineteen forties.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I often say, if you look at any textbook, all
the examples are like a baseball reference.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Right. We've been throwing.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Baseballs as a way to calculate wavelengths for the past
eighty years, right, since the heyday of baseball. I'm like,
we need to be able to throw something else. What
are the kids nowadays culturally thrown? Throw a chankla throw,
you know, throw something else, right, and let's let's bring
some culture. So I think one of the ways we're
falling short is people aren't seeing themselves. Their lived experiences
(23:05):
are not reflected in the way science is communicated to them.
And so I think something we need to really do
is start teaching.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
In a more modern way.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Are more modern examples that really bridge young folks who
lived experiences with science, And if we can do that,
I think we'll have better outcomes for folks.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
The KEYA.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
So when you think of science communication on the grand scheme,
where do you feel like there's still some gaps? Like
where do you feel like science communication is lacking?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
I think science communication is lacking in the it's too uptight.
It still has a suit. I think, like, you know,
it used to have on a three piece suit and
a cumber bunch and now it just has on a
regular suit, and I'm like, you need to put on
basketball shorts and a tank top. I think some of
(24:08):
my favorite science communicators are here in this episode. Some
others are not and I'm going to share them, you know,
in our social media, I'll spotlight some of the people
I really like as well that are doing great work.
But I think we forget just how many combos of
identities there are and where people might find an inroad,
(24:29):
do you know what I mean? Like, you don't have
to make science your entire personality to enjoy it, to
be a lover of science, to be a supporter of it, right,
And I think so often science communication has been shoved
into this like upright position and that's like, okay, now
we must say this fact and this thing. And what
the evidence shows us is that that's not the only
(24:50):
road in. It's not a deficit model. It's not that
people don't have enough information. Is that we're not bringing
them enough narrative and connection points to make it feel
relevant to their lives, to make it feel to even
you know, hide the what do you call it, hide
the medicine and the apple sauce, or to hide it
in the candy or whatever. We don't do that enough
with science communication, Like it should be fun. Sometimes people
say to me like, oh, I listen to an episode,
(25:11):
y'all just laughing. Yeah, we're laughing. You think, right, you
don't want me to get a a haha, I think
my facts like that's right to me, crazy, And so
I do think that's a place where we're missing some
things in science communication. What do you think we need
more of? I think the same.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
I think we need just more folks being given an
opportunity to talk. I think that we, for such a
long time, have only listened to certain scientists that look
and sound and fit this mold. And so it's just
like when folks are looking for a scientists, they are
looking for this very cookie cutter look and feel, and
(25:53):
I'm like, but there's so many smart dope people out
there that are doing such amazing work, and y'all are
missing out on that amazing work just because they don't
fit into your cookie cutter mold. Like they are people
that are a part of the LGBTQ plus community. They
are people that are differently abled, people who are coming from.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
All walks of life.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
There are deaf scientists, there are blind scientists, and we're
missing out on those experiences because we're like, no, I
want to see someone that looks like that guy that
has been talking for the last thirty years.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
No shade but a little bit I heard it. We
asked Raven, Andre and lindsay what they thought was missing
from science communication.
Speaker 6 (26:40):
A healthy science communication ecosystem involves teaching science communication at
the K twol level for sure, not only science communication
but also science literacy, but focusing in on science communication,
teaching these kids, Okay, well you learn science and you
may not be able to become a science and tist
(27:00):
right now, but you can talk about the things that
you learned. And we have so many kids who want
to become YouTubers, twitch streamers, all of that make money
on social media, which is amazing.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
That could be a very great career.
Speaker 6 (27:14):
But science communication is a proven avenue to pursue that,
so why not integrate that into a K twelve curriculum?
And then, of course, as an educator, I'm always thinking
education in front of mine. That needs to carry over
into colleges and universities. We need science communication majors. We
need like formal degree programs around building a science communication career,
(27:39):
whether it's written art, fine arts, or like actual communications
journal you know, like formal science writing, technical science writing,
creative science writing, like science illustrating.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
It's an ecosystem. And then going out from that.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
We do now have professional science communication organizations, which is great,
but I think that that ecosystem could be much more robust.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
I think that we can build out that.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
Network a lot more, and I think that's what it
would look like. Probably the offshoots of this ecosystem would
look like we have more presence virtually, we have more
in person opportunities for science communicators. Also, all the currently
established professional science professional organizations should have a strong science
(28:35):
communication arm to their initiatives.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
I think one of the things I really hope to
do is to really change the picture of a scientist.
I think if you look at the data, we haven't
increased the participation rates of people of color and folks
with minoritized identities. And that's because science doesn't have a
culture that's inviting to those folks, right. And so for me,
I want to change a picture of a scientist. And
if you want to engage on participation among folks in minoritized.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Identities, we have to do things differently.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
We have to do it in a way that invites
people in, right, So we have to make sure the
culture of our academic spaces or labs or classrooms are
inviting and one that ones that like allow folks to
be their full cells. And so what I'm trying to
do is really to say, hey, here's a different way
of existing in the lab space that both student and faculty,
and here's how you can bring your full authentic self
(29:26):
to the lab and to the classroom.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
And there's data.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Scientists believe in data, there's data to backness up. I
love this beautiful references paper all the time in the
Journal of Flavor Economics that really talked about the statistics
around papers that are published by diverse co authors.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
So if you look at the citation.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Numbers, right, papers that have a more diverse co authorship
have more citations than those that are ethnically homogenous. And
so diversity is important. But if we're not inviting people
in who with different perspectives, who might need a different
way of learning and understanding science, then we're not doing
our collective selves any benefits. So so I'm trying my
(30:06):
best to get folks into science any way I can.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
No matter what your background is, you can be involved
in science communication. We need lots of perspectives, like we
were just talking about, and so.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
You might be thinking, well, you know, what should I do.
What are some of the steps I should take? What
are some things that I should be thinking about if
I do want to dip my toe into science communication.
Lindsey and Andre gave us some advice.
Speaker 8 (30:33):
I would say, well, I would say just do it,
but it's not that easy, right, I would say, like, really,
brainthorn for yourself, what aspects of the research you're doing
are most exciting? What things do you think are most relevant?
And what would you want the public to know If
you could make sure everybody in the world knew one
(30:54):
part of your research, what would that be? Pick that
topic and workshop how you talk about that? If you
want to do it Instagram in three minutes max, right,
And then this is the party is important. Draft it
and then share it with a non scientist because we
spend so little time training in how to communicate it
on scientists. This is important because you can share with
(31:15):
a friend, the family member, ask them like, what are
you getting out of this? Are you getting enough from it?
Or what do you think I should change that this
can be accessible to you.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Right right?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
You know, scientists can have talents too, you know, as
a matter of fact, I read a paper recently that
said some of the most successful scientists are ones that
have artistic skills. And if you look at a number
of scientists who have Nobel prizes, they disproportionately have more
artistic skills than the average scientists. So yeah, if you
want to do great science, they got to learn some choreography,
play some music or something. So that's kind of how
(31:46):
it started, and it blossomed from there. We just get
more and more students. Majors are like.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Listen, we want to dance too. We got dance mods.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
And was a really powerful way to connect with students,
but also a way to flip the script, Like I've
always been the one teaching them things, they were the
ones teaching me. Moved so the teacher became the student
and the student became the teacher, and I think what
that made for was really better relationships across the board
for all of us.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I think what we're hearing from our friends here and
what we know from our own lived experience, is that
scientists want to be seen as multi dimensional. We want
to be able to have some depth.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Absolutely, yeah, because I mean, who would we be without
our many layers, right, We didn't just pop up out
of nowhere, and we're like here I am as a scientist.
Like we lived, honey, We have lived, and we have
a lot of life experiences that we bring to the table,
which makes us stronger scientists and it helps with our
(32:46):
science communication because you know, I know how to communicate
to folks from lots of walks of life. And it's
not because oh I'm from that walk of life. Part
of it is, you know, But then the other part
is that I've lived, I've traveled, We've traveled, we've traveled together,
We've talked to strangers. We've done a lot of things,
and so I love to talk to stranger. My friend
(33:07):
doesn't know a stranger. Okay, sometimes I'm like, hey, danger, danger, danger,
stranger danger.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
She don't believe in it.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
But yeah, I mean having all of these layers, like
my friend, she's a wonderful artist, she's a beautiful piano player.
She does all of these amazing things that you know,
you stop it, that make her who she is. And
I mean she wouldn't have been able to be the professor.
She is, the friend, she is the scientist, she is
(33:35):
the daughter that she is without all these experiences.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
When I think about what we try to do with dope, labs.
I think there are people that gravitate to you, and
I think that's just an example. This wouldn't be the
same if it was just a Zakiah show or if
it was just a T.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
T show.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
And I think what we see is that we reach
different audiences and our friendship together is a thing to
showcase because I also think so much of science gets painted,
especially in the media, it's like a one person operation,
one person in charge.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
That's not how it works. I mean, it's just so wild.
People are like, oh, this is such and such scientist.
I'm like, do you know the team that is behind
you know, there are thirty people on that group, right
down to undergrads lab tech. Yes, Like you have no
idea people win in like Nobel Prizes and things like that.
They are coming from massive labs with a lot of
(34:25):
people doing a lot of work. And I think that
also just highlights something we've talked about a couple of
episodes ago about the entire enterprise of science, what it
takes to do this kind of research, what it takes
to keep driving this kind of innovation, and the money
it takes, you know, to do that. Because if the
lab tech is invisible to you, and the postdoc and
the grad student and the senior scientists and the supporting
(34:48):
the people washing the glass, where if everybody is invisible
to you, then you think that those people don't need
to be paid and that these things just happen magically,
and they don't. And I think part of science communication
for some people that are peeling the layers back and saying, hey,
this is what the scientific enterprise looks like. Part of
it is showing those parts that get hidden right. Part
of it is showing the process, like we did in
(35:10):
the episode weeks ago with Roberto Bowley who talked about
the EBAR system where he was leaning on research from
the eighties to help him prepare for an aging population
right now, to help people understand that basic research has
always been key to us advancing and moving forward. All
of that's necessary for people that are in science communication
to share with the world. I think the fun science
(35:32):
communication is like look at this bird or this new species.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
You know, like that's fun. But that's not all it is, too,
like everything that's going on, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Absolutely, let my friend cook I just shut.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
My mouth, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
And all of that makes me think about when the
pandemic first hit, and we were dying for good science
communication because there was a lot of misinformation on a
lot of people confused about what was going on, absolutely
what this is, what this virus is, how it gets
passed from person to person, how long it lives on
(36:07):
a surface. And then when the vaccine came out, the
vaccine mistrust, we were hungry, hungry, hungry for good science communication,
and we hoped to add positive science communication to the
ecosystem because it was such a tough time and people
were reading headlines and not reading the articles. People were
(36:28):
making like really sensational articles and really sensational headlines and
just misleading a lot of folks, And it was just
so unfortunate because I was just like, man, if folks
were better trained in science communication, we would not be
in the position that we are right now, where no
one knows where to turn for facts.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
So true. I think all we can do is hope
to continue to nurture our audience of science interested people,
to try to bring the expert right to their front door,
right to their ear drums, and to continue to try
to find good stories and to share them in a
way that's fun and that just leaves friendship and joy
(37:10):
all throughout it. You know, yes, I loved this episode.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
It was basically the science of Dope Labs. You can
find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs podcast.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Tt Is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho,
and you can find Takiya at z said so. Dope
Labs is a production of Lamanada Media.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Issara Svez.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Dope Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed by James Farber.
Lamanada Media is Vice President of Partnerships and Production is
Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil.
Marketing lead is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Original music composed and produced by Takayasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura,
with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Lab is executive
produced by us T T Show Dia and Kia Wattlei
I'm t T and I'm Zakiah, and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
Me and as a Kia met back in what was
(00:24):
that twenty e ten.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
To go about the outfits we were wearing, well, I
was wearing dressed like business with bright pink lipstick.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I had a lot of eyeshadow on from my eyebrow
to my lash line, so it had to have been
the twenty tens.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I think you had.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Great bangs, Thank you friend. The rest of it was
not right. It was just fine. When I think about
like us being in grad school and having a good time,
but also being like, hey, we need to have some balance,
you know, pushing each other said and remember I would
(01:03):
set those crazy deadlines, and I was like, I have
to sprint to get this done in the next three weeks.
I'm going to get this many mutants into the chromosome.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I was moving there. I was trying to do a
lot of recombineering, doing a lot of genetic manipulation to
your bacteria.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
These are a lot of words exactly how you're feeling
right now. That exactly how I felt when she was
explained it to me. Yes, girl, my friend is very,
very smart. But if somebody would have told me, oh,
you know, you and Zakia are going to have a
podcast together in a few years, I would have believed them, honestly,
because we we had been saying it. We had been
(01:39):
since true, Like there is evidence on the Internet of
where we were like, oh, we should do.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
A podcast together, we should do a podcast together.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
But you know, lots of people at that time were
saying they wanted to do a podcast. We just actually
did it, which is wild.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
And I think what makes it so wild is just
how rewarding. It's been challenging and reporting, and I think
that makes the reward so much sweeter. You know.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I really appreciate everybody that has been riding with us.
I can remember February fourteenth, twenty nineteen, our first episode
and people were responding and finding us on social media
and saying they liked the episode. Great price memory. Emory,
I go.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
By everybody's Instagram name. Yes, everybody, Yes, I know you
by your handle exactly. The Emory is my cousin in
my head. Honestly. The key key sessions we have in
DMS is just it's top tier.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Kiki, well, we actually got to meet her in person.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh Kiki, my ye, Yes, we did meet her in person.
And it's crazy because when you say Kiky, I was
like our friend Kiki, it's hard to remember that we
did not know these people before the show, right, Cat Purcell,
Cat Percell absolutely absolutely running to our episodes on her
daily runs. Yeah, but even the new folks, the new
(03:02):
folks that have been showing up and saying, hey, I
just found your podcast, we really appreciate y'all as well,
and so welcome, come on, get in here with us.
We're gonna snuggle up real tight and close. But in
this week's lab, we're gonna be talking about what we
do here at DOPE last with just science communication, and
we're gonna be talking to some of our favorite science communicators.
(03:22):
We have Raven the Science Maven, doctor Raven Baxter. She's
a molecular biologist and a science educator. We also have
Lindsay Edo who is a PhD student in neuroscience at
the University of Pennsylvania researching pain. And then we have
doctor Andre Isaacs, who is a chemistry professor at College
of the Holy Cross, and if you are on TikTok
(03:46):
you've seen doctor Isaacs.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
You've seen them, you absolutely have. He is one of
my faves. I can't wait to share these folks stories
because you know, I think people come to science and
stem broadly through many different avenues, right.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I love t t when you share the story of
your grandfather being an engineer. That was the first time
I'd ever heard of engineering was when my I'd asked
my mother, you know what my grandparents did, and she
talked about my grandfather and said that he was an engineer.
And I was like, well, then I shall be an engineer.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Crowned yourself. That's right, yourself, that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I was like, let me tell you, Frederick Akufu, you
did that. You did that, And so he blazed the
trail and I just walked behind him.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Very grateful.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I love your stories about how you got involved in
step because it's all over the place.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
He started it. You started wanting to be a nurse
and then realized, yes, hey girl, you don't have the
stomach for that. Okay, you don't. You said it was
passing out. I was like, oh no, baby, I don't
think I'm in the wrong place, and I went all
the way to being a certified nursing assistant. I was
a CNA, and so then I was like, I can't
(05:03):
go to school for this. I switched to be in
a biology major. But even before that program, summer exposure
programs at North Carolina A and T. That was really
my route into science broadly. That's why I was even
in the nursing area. There was a woman, her name
was Miss Manley. She ran a Saturday program that was
called GAMSEK at North Carolina A and T. It was
a Greensboro area math and science enrichment camp. And I
(05:24):
went on Saturdays, but my mom was going back to school.
I would go to that. We were doing SAT pre SAT,
we were doing programs, We're doing stuff I wasn't even
learning yet. And I was getting such exposure to so
many different things. And in high school I went on
and did I was doing civil engineering over at A
and T, which is wild because you're the engineer exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I didn't know my friend was an engineer too, but
I'm not surprised. She's very, very smart. She could do anything.
But you know, what your story reminds me of is
what doctor Isaac's andre. What he was saying was his
first introduction into stem was also a similar experience where
he got involved because someone else was teaching him chemistry
(06:04):
and it happened to be his uncle.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
It started for me in high school.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I will be the first to say I wanted to
love chemistry so bad, but chemistry didn't love me. When
I was in high school, I really struggled with specifically stoycheometry.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And I.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Know, I know, I'm like balancing equations, that's easy, but
I really struggled, you know, as a high schooler. And
it was my uncle, who back when I lived in Jamaica,
by the way, I grew up in Kingston, Jamaica, who
had this evening school that he taught adults who were
going back to school for to get like high school degrees.
So he said, come to my evening school. I'll help
(06:42):
you with whatever you need. So I went and an
hour later I was a master at stoycheometry. So I think, really,
for me, what that showed there's no subject is impossible.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
You just need to write instruction or instructor.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
And someone who can explain it in a way that's
accessible to you. And in that moment, I recognized that
I could conquer.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Anything, even chemistry, and so I really just took to it.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Went to college, started doing research, was killing all my classes.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
My professors are like, dude, you need to do a PhD.
Are too good at this, and I just kept going.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And I think a lot of it really came back to,
you know, that initial experience of seeing a hurdle that
I didn't think I could cross and having someone just
break it down for me in ways that were accessible
to me, and then I was able to do it.
And so for me, that's definitely key to my own pedagogy.
When I see a student who was struggling, I'm like,
I just need to find a way to make that
(07:37):
student understand this sort of make it connect in a
way that works for them. And I think that's one
of the things many of us as educators need to
really think about.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I think this was one of the guiding principles for
me when I was teaching. I was like, how can
I make this connectment how you're already thinking, what you're
already thinking about.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
When my friend was a professor, Okay, y'all didn't know
the key when she was in her professor era, she
was that girl. Okay, when I tell you I went
to one of her classes, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Good at biology. You already know that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Okay, my friend holds my hand through every biology episode.
I came out of that class like I think I
might be able to be a geneticist. She makes it
so accessible, she roots it and stuff that you're already
thinking about talking about singing.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
And it was just so so good.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
And so you were teaching biology to non non majors,
and so these are folks who don't have the background
and they're trying to get their credits. But let me
tell you something, those students are forever changed.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think that's one of the things I really loved.
I saw a lot of non majors switch to be
a major. Some of them ended up in my research lab.
One of them is a science teacher right now, Kelly
oh DiGeronimo. But it's so cool to see, you know
how these kind of experiences. I had those experiences in
my life. I had a biology teacher. I used to
(09:09):
you know, I went into biology because I had a
biology teacher that was like flowing what you know, and
I said, this is hard, I'll do this. And I
was like I don't know anything. I don't have anything
to flow into.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Hey, come on, I mean it's crazy how one minute
you're just living your life and then you get an
idea and that idea turns into something bigger that you
probably could.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Have never imagined.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And Lindsey, Raven, and Andre had similar experiences to us,
where it's like, how do we get here? We are
doing this podcast, doing something that we really love. Raven,
who you're gonna hear from first, she's a little bit
of an og and so she uses music as a
means to connect with folks.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I remember first discovering Raven.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Hey, it was a lot of feelings, a lot of fun.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
As far as I go.
Speaker 6 (09:57):
You know, music historically has and a means to share
messages and at the same time, music is a language
that unites us all and when it comes to blending
science and music, it really was a no brainer for me.
And so my first music video was called Big Old Geeks,
(10:18):
and it is a rap video that like displays norms
that you see in hip hop culture, you know, especially
like contemporary hip hop culture. We're looking at fast cars,
hot ladies, and bars, and that's what I was giving.
(10:39):
And so it featured me. I was like the main character,
but I also cast in my friends as dancers and
just actresses in the background, and they were all black
women of various shape, sizes, and colors. And the lyrics
I was delivering were very technical, some big old geeks,
but the tennis place was on my ytic sciences talking.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
I kind of like I'm doing both. I'm Biana nothing
you buck periodic. I can like an enzigme and we're
cutting it up. Proteens in the job and we're running.
Speaker 6 (11:08):
Them up the message like, the science is still the
same no matter what I look like or act like.
That video was the first video I put out, and
I kind of took a chance. You know, as a
black woman in science, you don't really get a lot
of liberty right as far as self expression goes, and
so I really took a gamble.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
I'm just like, I know in my.
Speaker 6 (11:30):
Heart that there are other people that need to see this,
and so I'm just going to put this out there.
And that's where my journey started. And I did release
other music and music videos after that, but that's.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Where it all began.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Lindsey and Andre they both use their downtime during the
pandemic to start creating science communication on their social media.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
It's funny.
Speaker 7 (11:51):
I started on TikTok twenty twenty one.
Speaker 8 (11:55):
And I don't know, it was just one of those
like during the COVID, developing a technok things, you.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
Know, I had to do a lot of people.
Speaker 8 (12:05):
So I started watching all these data life videos and
I figured, oh, let me try one, because I figured
not many people know what the day in life of like.
Speaker 7 (12:12):
A neuroscientist is, or even a PhD student.
Speaker 8 (12:15):
So I tried one out and then it randomly got
a lot of traction.
Speaker 7 (12:20):
So I was just like, oh, okay, I'll keep it going.
Speaker 8 (12:24):
And then over time people would ask questions about my
science and my experiments, and that led me to like,
you know, respond to.
Speaker 7 (12:30):
Them, think of other things to talk about.
Speaker 8 (12:31):
And eventually building this pretty big picon platform.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Like many of us, the pandemic changed a lot of things.
And I'll be honest, I had Instagram.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
I didn't have TikTok at an Instagram. I had a Twitter.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I probably had a combined eleven hundred followers on all plastics.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
I just didn't really.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Pulse like that, right, But the pandemic came and you know,
the college was like, hey, faculty, you have a week
to transition your courses to line learning. Go use this
thing called zoom. We've never heard of it, but we
hear it's good. So there I am a zoom and
I went extroverts. So, you know, once you were teaching online,
I got extremely bored and you know, I needed to
(13:15):
get out. I needed to socialize. You know, my friends
are sending me videos and they're like, oh, here's this video.
I'm like, I don't have this app called TikTok. What
am I supposed to do with this? And so I
downloaded it and let me tell you, the rabbit hole
was there. But what was really awesome for me was
as a kid growing up in Jamaica, we have an
affinity for dancing, right, and you all might be familiar
with how it comes about. You know, some DJ creates
(13:36):
a riddim and then the artists sing a song on it,
and then someone creates a dance and pretty soon everyone
in the island is doing the Willy Bones soor or whatever.
And so for me, you know, you go to a
party in Jamaica as a kid, everyone knew the dance
moves and then I go on TikTok.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
And it's the same thing.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
So I was like immediately drawn back to my past
as a kid growing up in jam and seeing the
community that's built her own dance, shared experience of dance
and the knowledge of the moves and all that stuff,
and so.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
I was drawn into it.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
So I started making videos at home by myself, learning
choreography to the Renegade.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
That one was hard. I didn't finish that one. And
you know, one of.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
My students saw a video I posted on our for
you page, and when we went back to campus, when
we were allowed to go back to campus in person,
she's like, Hey, we need to collaborate.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
You can dance. I didn't know you could dance. I'm like,
I didn't know you could dance.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
And what that created was really this community of scientists
who have interests outside of science, including dance, music, theater.
And we built a little community in the lab and
in my classes in the chemistry department, you know, where
we all like learned dances and choreography and showed that
(14:51):
as a scientist you can be multi facetating.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
You didn't have to just be the stereotypical.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Hey, I'm in a basement in a white lab quote
with no personality, no emotion, no skills.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
You know, dancing and science is not my ministry. It
is also not mine.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Okay, y'all don't need to see that, but doctor Isaac's
I'm telling you, if you don't follow him on TikTok,
get to it. You gotta get to it because he's
got the moves, he's.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Funny, smart, it's perfect. We me and my friends. You know,
we are more of calckulers and science. That's true. That's true.
That's true.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
And showing up as ourselves has been really really important
to us. I don't know if we've told this story
on the show, but Zaki, tell these folks about what
happened after our first episode. We got a lot of love,
but we did get a lot of a lot of love,
but we got a little bit of hate.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I know people say just ignore those things, but I
also think those things are indicator when you get hate.
That kind of hate is an indicator of where people
have closed minds or where change needs to happen. When
we first started Dope Labs, people like you said, I
showed us a lot of love, but we diget an
email and I will never forget this. The guy was like,
you're using language like this, You're not sounding professional. Does
(16:22):
it makes you less credible when you talk like this?
I said, baby, this country grammar. You're gonna get it God,
turning to Nelly. Yes, I'm going now, damn Dawn, baby Okay,
I turned to Nelly in here all right? And so
I think you know that also challenges what people think
a scientist sounds like. And so showing up like this
(16:44):
tells you exactly, But I am a scientist. So this
is now what a scientist sounds like. I remember when
you graduated. I'm not gonna point any fingers and name
any names, but somebody said, a scientist doesn't dress like this.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh yes, I always got a lot of well you,
and I say a lot people have commented on the
way that I dress and the way that I you know,
the way that I do things for what feels like forever,
because they just don't feel like it falls in line
with what they feel like someone who's accomplished in this
field looks like.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
And I'm like, well, here, I am right here, I
am existing outside of what you imaginally look at that
open your mind, open your mind.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
It really isn't that much of a stretch. It's just closed,
it's just makeup, it's just hair like.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
These are just the accessories. But the brain is where
it's at. No, that's that's the gym. Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Well, we hear similar stories from Raven and Andre too
about how they had some negative reactions to them before
they even started their science communication and during I.
Speaker 6 (17:49):
Had an incident at one of my former places of
employment where I had a coworker tell me that she
didn't believe that I worked there, and it was my
first day and she threatened to call the police on
me because I was in the faculty mail room.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
And I left that.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
Incident really feeling just charged with this mission to disrupt
the notion of what a scientist looks like, and I
wanted to do it in such an extreme way that
just made the message very clear.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
I do get some pushback, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
There are some folks who think that what I'm doing
is not productive, and what they measure success on right,
is really the number of publications you have instead of
really the number of folks that you've brought into the field.
And so for me, I don't mind the negative criticism,
you know, because what I know for a fact that
the work that I do has had a positive impact
(18:52):
on young folks who emailed me.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I've get like hundreds of emails.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
From high school kids, college kids, even professors were like,
I didn't think a Korean commisary was for me until
I saw your videos. So those are the people who
I'm dotting for, and so the hitters can hit. I'm
trying to bring new folks into the game.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
And with all of this, you know, with all of this, well,
let me not say all of this, because honestly, we're
all getting a lot of really positive feedback. But with
the negative feedback, you know that those kind of thing.
But we still continue to turn our microphones on because
this space needs us, It needs more voices.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Absolutely, we have such a long way to go. Where
are my colleagues?
Speaker 6 (19:36):
You and I are both degreed scientists, experts. There are
so many of us out there, but yet so many
of us don't have platforms to stand on to demonstrate
that expertise, to bring people into scientific conversations in a
constructive way.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
And it's just annoying that.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
That Bill Kny, the science guy, is still the archetype
of science communication in twenty twenty five. There are just
so many opportunities for not only like current scientists, but
aspiring science communicators to fill in that space.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
And carry us forward. So where are we right now?
Speaker 6 (20:20):
People are panicking, I think, especially now with the government,
you know, US government administrations cuts to science and clear
actions against the scientific community at large. We're really facing
a text on science and people are panicking because they
didn't I don't think that many of us could gauge
(20:41):
how severe this would be, and now everyone's trying to
scream into the void on no platform.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
So it is just like, oh.
Speaker 6 (20:55):
My gosh, we have a lot of work to do.
But I'm optimistic, but it's just a daunting It's very daunting.
Speaker 8 (21:03):
I think that it seems like science feels so far
away from so many people right now, especially when it
comes to the cutting edge work that's being done, the
new data that's coming out as we speak and continues
to come out, and what the actual process going through
a research project to get that data really is and
(21:25):
the fact that this is so opaque definitely does not
help the growing mistrust in scientists and the divestment from science.
And it's so frustrating. But I think a lot of
scientists just feel that frustration and just say, oh, this sucks,
let's get back to work. But what if we instead said, Okay,
(21:48):
how about we meet people where they are, share with
them what we're doing and what strides we're making. It's
easy to think that science is a waste of money
when you don't know what's coming out of it.
Speaker 7 (21:58):
Right, it's not right in your face outside of like.
Speaker 8 (22:02):
Pharma, big pharma commercials exactly exactly. So, I think social
media has its flaws, for sure, but it's a really
effective way to show up in the spaces that unbiased,
balanced science usually doesn't reach and spread that message.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I think the way it falls short is in how
it's communicated and the methods through which the information is related.
So there's not a lot of us. I mentioned there's
not a lot of culture in the way we communicate science,
and that's because science is being communicated the way was
communicated in the nineteen forties.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I often say, if you look at any textbook, all
the examples are like a baseball reference.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Right. We've been throwing.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Baseballs as a way to calculate wavelengths for the past
eighty years, right, since the heyday of baseball. I'm like,
we need to be able to throw something else. What
are the kids nowadays culturally thrown? Throw a chankla throw,
you know, throw something else, right, and let's let's bring
some culture. So I think one of the ways we're
falling short is people aren't seeing themselves. Their lived experiences
(23:05):
are not reflected in the way science is communicated to them.
And so I think something we need to really do
is start teaching.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
In a more modern way.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Are more modern examples that really bridge young folks who
lived experiences with science, And if we can do that,
I think we'll have better outcomes for folks.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
The KEYA.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
So when you think of science communication on the grand scheme,
where do you feel like there's still some gaps? Like
where do you feel like science communication is lacking?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
I think science communication is lacking in the it's too uptight.
It still has a suit. I think, like, you know,
it used to have on a three piece suit and
a cumber bunch and now it just has on a
regular suit, and I'm like, you need to put on
basketball shorts and a tank top. I think some of
(24:08):
my favorite science communicators are here in this episode. Some
others are not and I'm going to share them, you know,
in our social media, I'll spotlight some of the people
I really like as well that are doing great work.
But I think we forget just how many combos of
identities there are and where people might find an inroad,
(24:29):
do you know what I mean? Like, you don't have
to make science your entire personality to enjoy it, to
be a lover of science, to be a supporter of it, right,
And I think so often science communication has been shoved
into this like upright position and that's like, okay, now
we must say this fact and this thing. And what
the evidence shows us is that that's not the only
(24:50):
road in. It's not a deficit model. It's not that
people don't have enough information. Is that we're not bringing
them enough narrative and connection points to make it feel
relevant to their lives, to make it feel to even
you know, hide the what do you call it, hide
the medicine and the apple sauce, or to hide it
in the candy or whatever. We don't do that enough
with science communication, Like it should be fun. Sometimes people
say to me like, oh, I listen to an episode,
(25:11):
y'all just laughing. Yeah, we're laughing. You think, right, you
don't want me to get a a haha, I think
my facts like that's right to me, crazy, And so
I do think that's a place where we're missing some
things in science communication. What do you think we need
more of? I think the same.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
I think we need just more folks being given an
opportunity to talk. I think that we, for such a
long time, have only listened to certain scientists that look
and sound and fit this mold. And so it's just
like when folks are looking for a scientists, they are
looking for this very cookie cutter look and feel, and
(25:53):
I'm like, but there's so many smart dope people out
there that are doing such amazing work, and y'all are
missing out on that amazing work just because they don't
fit into your cookie cutter mold. Like they are people
that are a part of the LGBTQ plus community. They
are people that are differently abled, people who are coming from.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
All walks of life.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
There are deaf scientists, there are blind scientists, and we're
missing out on those experiences because we're like, no, I
want to see someone that looks like that guy that
has been talking for the last thirty years.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
No shade but a little bit I heard it. We
asked Raven, Andre and lindsay what they thought was missing
from science communication.
Speaker 6 (26:40):
A healthy science communication ecosystem involves teaching science communication at
the K twol level for sure, not only science communication
but also science literacy, but focusing in on science communication,
teaching these kids, Okay, well you learn science and you
may not be able to become a science and tist
(27:00):
right now, but you can talk about the things that
you learned. And we have so many kids who want
to become YouTubers, twitch streamers, all of that make money
on social media, which is amazing.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
That could be a very great career.
Speaker 6 (27:14):
But science communication is a proven avenue to pursue that,
so why not integrate that into a K twelve curriculum?
And then, of course, as an educator, I'm always thinking
education in front of mine. That needs to carry over
into colleges and universities. We need science communication majors. We
need like formal degree programs around building a science communication career,
(27:39):
whether it's written art, fine arts, or like actual communications
journal you know, like formal science writing, technical science writing,
creative science writing, like science illustrating.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
It's an ecosystem. And then going out from that.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
We do now have professional science communication organizations, which is great,
but I think that that ecosystem could be much more robust.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
I think that we can build out that.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
Network a lot more, and I think that's what it
would look like. Probably the offshoots of this ecosystem would
look like we have more presence virtually, we have more
in person opportunities for science communicators. Also, all the currently
established professional science professional organizations should have a strong science
(28:35):
communication arm to their initiatives.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
I think one of the things I really hope to
do is to really change the picture of a scientist.
I think if you look at the data, we haven't
increased the participation rates of people of color and folks
with minoritized identities. And that's because science doesn't have a
culture that's inviting to those folks, right. And so for me,
I want to change a picture of a scientist. And
if you want to engage on participation among folks in minoritized.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Identities, we have to do things differently.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
We have to do it in a way that invites
people in, right, So we have to make sure the
culture of our academic spaces or labs or classrooms are
inviting and one that ones that like allow folks to
be their full cells. And so what I'm trying to
do is really to say, hey, here's a different way
of existing in the lab space that both student and faculty,
and here's how you can bring your full authentic self
(29:26):
to the lab and to the classroom.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
And there's data.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Scientists believe in data, there's data to backness up. I
love this beautiful references paper all the time in the
Journal of Flavor Economics that really talked about the statistics
around papers that are published by diverse co authors.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
So if you look at the citation.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Numbers, right, papers that have a more diverse co authorship
have more citations than those that are ethnically homogenous. And
so diversity is important. But if we're not inviting people
in who with different perspectives, who might need a different
way of learning and understanding science, then we're not doing
our collective selves any benefits. So so I'm trying my
(30:06):
best to get folks into science any way I can.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
No matter what your background is, you can be involved
in science communication. We need lots of perspectives, like we
were just talking about, and so.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
You might be thinking, well, you know, what should I do.
What are some of the steps I should take? What
are some things that I should be thinking about if
I do want to dip my toe into science communication.
Lindsey and Andre gave us some advice.
Speaker 8 (30:33):
I would say, well, I would say just do it,
but it's not that easy, right, I would say, like, really,
brainthorn for yourself, what aspects of the research you're doing
are most exciting? What things do you think are most relevant?
And what would you want the public to know If
you could make sure everybody in the world knew one
(30:54):
part of your research, what would that be? Pick that
topic and workshop how you talk about that? If you
want to do it Instagram in three minutes max, right,
And then this is the party is important. Draft it
and then share it with a non scientist because we
spend so little time training in how to communicate it
on scientists. This is important because you can share with
(31:15):
a friend, the family member, ask them like, what are
you getting out of this? Are you getting enough from it?
Or what do you think I should change that this
can be accessible to you.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Right right?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
You know, scientists can have talents too, you know, as
a matter of fact, I read a paper recently that
said some of the most successful scientists are ones that
have artistic skills. And if you look at a number
of scientists who have Nobel prizes, they disproportionately have more
artistic skills than the average scientists. So yeah, if you
want to do great science, they got to learn some choreography,
play some music or something. So that's kind of how
(31:46):
it started, and it blossomed from there. We just get
more and more students. Majors are like.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Listen, we want to dance too. We got dance mods.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
And was a really powerful way to connect with students,
but also a way to flip the script, Like I've
always been the one teaching them things, they were the
ones teaching me. Moved so the teacher became the student
and the student became the teacher, and I think what
that made for was really better relationships across the board
for all of us.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I think what we're hearing from our friends here and
what we know from our own lived experience, is that
scientists want to be seen as multi dimensional. We want
to be able to have some depth.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Absolutely, yeah, because I mean, who would we be without
our many layers, right, We didn't just pop up out
of nowhere, and we're like here I am as a scientist.
Like we lived, honey, We have lived, and we have
a lot of life experiences that we bring to the table,
which makes us stronger scientists and it helps with our
(32:46):
science communication because you know, I know how to communicate
to folks from lots of walks of life. And it's
not because oh I'm from that walk of life. Part
of it is, you know, But then the other part
is that I've lived, I've traveled, We've traveled, we've traveled together,
We've talked to strangers. We've done a lot of things,
and so I love to talk to stranger. My friend
(33:07):
doesn't know a stranger. Okay, sometimes I'm like, hey, danger, danger, danger,
stranger danger.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
She don't believe in it.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
But yeah, I mean having all of these layers, like
my friend, she's a wonderful artist, she's a beautiful piano player.
She does all of these amazing things that you know,
you stop it, that make her who she is. And
I mean she wouldn't have been able to be the professor.
She is, the friend, she is the scientist, she is
(33:35):
the daughter that she is without all these experiences.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
When I think about what we try to do with dope, labs.
I think there are people that gravitate to you, and
I think that's just an example. This wouldn't be the
same if it was just a Zakiah show or if
it was just a T.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
T show.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
And I think what we see is that we reach
different audiences and our friendship together is a thing to
showcase because I also think so much of science gets painted,
especially in the media, it's like a one person operation,
one person in charge.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
That's not how it works. I mean, it's just so wild.
People are like, oh, this is such and such scientist.
I'm like, do you know the team that is behind
you know, there are thirty people on that group, right
down to undergrads lab tech. Yes, Like you have no
idea people win in like Nobel Prizes and things like that.
They are coming from massive labs with a lot of
(34:25):
people doing a lot of work. And I think that
also just highlights something we've talked about a couple of
episodes ago about the entire enterprise of science, what it
takes to do this kind of research, what it takes
to keep driving this kind of innovation, and the money
it takes, you know, to do that. Because if the
lab tech is invisible to you, and the postdoc and
the grad student and the senior scientists and the supporting
(34:48):
the people washing the glass, where if everybody is invisible
to you, then you think that those people don't need
to be paid and that these things just happen magically,
and they don't. And I think part of science communication
for some people that are peeling the layers back and saying, hey,
this is what the scientific enterprise looks like. Part of
it is showing those parts that get hidden right. Part
of it is showing the process, like we did in
(35:10):
the episode weeks ago with Roberto Bowley who talked about
the EBAR system where he was leaning on research from
the eighties to help him prepare for an aging population
right now, to help people understand that basic research has
always been key to us advancing and moving forward. All
of that's necessary for people that are in science communication
to share with the world. I think the fun science
(35:32):
communication is like look at this bird or this new species.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
You know, like that's fun. But that's not all it is, too,
like everything that's going on, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Absolutely, let my friend cook I just shut.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
My mouth, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
And all of that makes me think about when the
pandemic first hit, and we were dying for good science
communication because there was a lot of misinformation on a
lot of people confused about what was going on, absolutely
what this is, what this virus is, how it gets
passed from person to person, how long it lives on
(36:07):
a surface. And then when the vaccine came out, the
vaccine mistrust, we were hungry, hungry, hungry for good science communication,
and we hoped to add positive science communication to the
ecosystem because it was such a tough time and people
were reading headlines and not reading the articles. People were
(36:28):
making like really sensational articles and really sensational headlines and
just misleading a lot of folks, And it was just
so unfortunate because I was just like, man, if folks
were better trained in science communication, we would not be
in the position that we are right now, where no
one knows where to turn for facts.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
So true. I think all we can do is hope
to continue to nurture our audience of science interested people,
to try to bring the expert right to their front door,
right to their ear drums, and to continue to try
to find good stories and to share them in a
way that's fun and that just leaves friendship and joy
(37:10):
all throughout it. You know, yes, I loved this episode.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
It was basically the science of Dope Labs. You can
find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs podcast.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Tt Is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho,
and you can find Takiya at z said so. Dope
Labs is a production of Lamanada Media.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Issara Svez.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Dope Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed by James Farber.
Lamanada Media is Vice President of Partnerships and Production is
Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil.
Marketing lead is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Original music composed and produced by Takayasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura,
with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Lab is executive
produced by us T T Show Dia and Kia Wattlei
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