July 13, 2025 • 30 mins
From your morning Lion’s Mane latte to zombie ants in The Last of Us—fungi are having a moment. In this episode of Dope Labs, Titi and Zakiya dig deep into the world of mushrooms with park ranger, data scientist, and mycology educator Darling Ngoh. They explore the underground networks keeping forests alive, the science behind cordyceps, and whether mushroom supplements are legit or just really good marketing.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, the Last of Us just wrapped in. I
wasn't impressed to nothing me either.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I just did not think it was as interesting or
as gripping as the previous seasons. I was very bored, and.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I feel like the only takeaway was that I was
sideye in the oyster mushrooms at the Farmer's market and I.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Was like, listen, this is the first season of the
Last of Us. We've been needing to talk about this.
So oh, because did I tell you I am taking
a mushroom supplement. I'm taking Lion's main mushroom girl.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
No, I mean nothing wrong with it. Do you feel okay?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I feel I mean, you know, I don't know if
it's just like all in my mind or if it's
actually doing something because I took it because I wanted
to like make sure that I wasn't like having so
much brain fog and stuff like that. Okay, so to
help me focus, and I think it's going okay. I
am not sure if it's doing anything, but I don't
feel like I haven't been focused.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Okay, all right, long as you're not clicking like on
the Last of Us, we're good. We're good.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Could you imagine I'm TT and I'm Zakiyah, and this
is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast
that mixes hardcore science with pop culture and a healthy
dose of friendship. All Right, I think we already know
(01:25):
funger everywhere. Yes, that is one of the first things
that we know.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And I know just from a little bit of microbiology background.
I got to learn a little bit about fungus, but
I know they have these like vast underground networks. They
live on our skin and our guts, and they can
even be spores in the air.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I don't have a biology background, so I know nothing
of those things. But I do know the pop culture,
which is that everyone is obsessed. HBO's the Last of Us,
put Cordyceps on the center stage, and TikTok Wellness keeps
pushing lines made lattes and creams and all these different things.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Girl, I had a mushroom beer the other day. I
mean mushroom root beer.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Oh there's mushroom coffee.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yes, there is also foraging for mushrooms is booming.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Too, absolutely Now.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I don't know. It's one thing to id birds. That's
because I'm not gonna eat them. I don't know if
I can I d mushrooms?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
You well, the only bird I mean is chicken. I think,
oh in those quail eggs. We won't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And you're eating turkey, girl, What are you told?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Right? I do eat turkey? Okay, So you know these
these animals just don't register my mind when I'm eating.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Sorry, Peter thinking about the mushrooms and fun guy, Like,
what do we want to know?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I think what I want to know is which parts
of the Cordyceps horror are rooted in like real actual
mushrooms science, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
It's like, where does the science separate from the fiction?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah? Where is the line between the sigh and the five?
That whole show.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Made me so nervous and I want to know, like
I'm a Marketer's dream. Okay, I'll try it.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
All.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Are these mushroom coffees and tinctures and brain elixers, you know,
things to help lift the fog? Are they legit or
are they just clever marketing?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
M Yeah? I mean if we take it a step further,
it's like, how do fungi affect us every day? Like?
How does it? How does it impact our well being
and like our lives.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, well, I think it's pretty clear today we're diving
into fungui, those mysterious little things. And I'm not talking
like Mario Brothers little you know, Tolstool. We're talking about
things that are in our food, under our feet and
on the last of us, controlling dead people. So we
(03:55):
went to an expert in fungui and in foraging for
fungui too.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
My name is Darling Go and you know I would
say that first and foremost, I am a scientist. I
do study and I major in data science at Georgia
State University and so Apart from being a full time student,
I'm also a park ranger at the Arabia Mountain National
(04:19):
Heritage Area. I am the founder of Hikes of Georgia
as well Hikes of Georgia as an educational and science
based organization that's really meant to educate people on the
study of fungi and mold as well as just general
nature knowledge and you know, helping our community become better
stewards of our land, because if not us, who will awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
From park ranger to data scientists, you're connecting the dots
between nature and technology and that is really really cool
and we're really excited to have you. Okay, So my
question is is that we want to break down mycology
for our audience. What does the word mean?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Mycology works from es centrally just a study of fungi,
and the fungi comes from the micopart and so the
ology we would know as generally being attributed to fields
of study. When we think of the word mushroom and
we think of the word fung gui, they can be synonymous.
(05:25):
But technically the fung guy is the body.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So we know the fruiting body that we typically see
or we think of having that top and stem, that
is what we typically call a mushroom. But there's so
much more that you mentioned where the fun guy are
growing underground, and sometimes there are things that we can't
even see. I can remember growing up thinking about fung
guy as decomposers, like they help stuff go away, or
(05:51):
when wood is rotting, you're gonna see mushrooms there. Yes.
Since then, and as I've grown, I've learned more. I
think about the micro rhizal networks and I think they
don't get enough credit. You know, I'm all about giving
credit whorres to. But I feel like they don't get
enough credit. Yeah, so I want to tell us a
(06:12):
little bit about these networks. It help us imagine what
would our force look like without those fun guy in
the mix, because I think we don't really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Y's right, absolutely, it's a wonderful question. By the way, Zakia,
this opens up a whole You know, we can get
very abstract here, but let's start very low level and
we'll work our way up. There are three main categories.
Off mushrooms or a fun guy. One of the main
categories which are the saprophetic mushrooms. Saprophetic mushrooms, it's just
(06:46):
the technical term for a decomposer, right, okay, And primarily
a cool thing about them is usually on your hikes.
This is going to be one of the more popular
categories of mushrooms that you come across, because decomposition is
always occurring in the ecosystem. And then we have another
minor category with the smallest category would be the parasitic mushrooms.
(07:09):
They have their own important ecological functions. For example, if
there was a subset of an ecosystem of trees and
an ecosystem that was already susceptible to a given disease.
They're a compromisation by these parasitic fungi a lot easier.
And this is generally what sort of trees. These parasitic
fungi will prey on organisms that are already susceptible, and
(07:33):
sometimes this parasitic fungui could easily mitigate the spread of
disease to the greater population of the ecosystem. So exactly,
although they're pretty gnarly right in nature, things are just
merely designed beautifully with a cause and effect, and I
think the more we understand that, the better we understand
(07:54):
ourselves too. But getting onto your main point, these infamous
Michael rises mushrooms and what's all to talk about them
or microhyzel fungi. Think of it as filamentous threads that
are roughly just one cell wall thick, and they're just
moving underground, just spreading right. No eyes, no ears, no
(08:19):
taste buds. It's super cool. These are organisms with no
central nervous system that are still one of the most
effective at acquiring resources, which is what makes it profound.
But these microizal mushrooms is they're underground, they're looking for
certain chemicals, and these chemicals are exactly what the trees
(08:40):
are providing. There's always a chemical universe and a chemical
relationship and dynamics going on underground. The roots of trees
are pumping out these chemicals that attract mushrooms that can
help provide them more resources. And here's where it gets
even more fun. So this michael rhyzel mycilium, which is
(09:04):
the network of this body of fungi, right, we refer
to it as just a mycilium network. This myceilial network
is it's spreading underground but encounters a chemical from a
root of a tree that it thinks it can work
with and maybe pair up for life. And what happens
here is super cool. When they're within proximity of each other,
(09:28):
the tree will keep letting out the chemical that's attracting
this michel rhyzel mushroom that wants to form a relationship
with it, and the micro hyzel myceolium realizes this and
it starts letting out a specific chemical that lets it
know that, hey, you know your best friends here type
of deal.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
So that's chemotaxis moving away from or in this case,
towards different chemical signals.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Right, it's like their secret chemical message. And what happens
is is and this is science and we've been able
to figure out in the last decade. But as we
know now, the root of the tree will let down
it saw wall.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yeah, I saw that. Plants or trees recognize it as
a symbiotic relationship, and the plants just dissolve their seal
walls in that region that's near the fun guy and
say like, come on in, I'm rolling out the red
carpet for you.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Okay, Okay, I think I get it. So it's building
an infrastructure. It's kind of like a sidewalk welcoming you
into the tree.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Not just a sidewalk, a highway where nutrients and information
is being passed twenty four to seven, three hundred and
sixty five days of the week. Right, And this is
the mic hoorizal relationship that's formed.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
This is really interesting. How does it affect us or
does it affect us?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Well, roughly eighty percent of trees are connected to a
symbiotic relationship with some fungi, right, So they're connected with
some sort of mic rhizo fungi, and fungi can be
found everywhere in the World's the Arctic apart from those
two poles, but everywhere else it's fair game. Even in
deserts it's it's interesting. So essentially, this tree is siphering
(11:15):
off carbon and it doesn't use all of this carbon,
though it saves roughly twenty to thirty percent. It turns
it into glucose and it trades it with the micylorhizol mushroom.
It gives it sugar, and then what does the micro
rhizal mushroom give in return? The myceelial network is so
(11:35):
adept it can reach deep underground reservoirs the roots of
trees can never dare imagine to reach right or just
nutrient spots from dead animals or highly nutrient locations that
are a little bit further off from the tree's main
location that its roots can't reach to, and it's sending
over the phosphorus, the nitrogen, and these are some of
(11:58):
the main nutrients provide.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
We're talking about chemical signals that are saying like, hey,
me and you, two different species, let's cooperate. And I
feel like that's a little wild because when we think
about cooperative I'm always thinking like in one species, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I, Yeah, that's wild. I mean that's a strong scent,
that's strong cologne, strong perfume. You know, is that baccarat rouge?
I heard that that's what all the young folks are.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Wearing these I'm not smelling that. Now.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Is this limited to just tree or plant communicating with
symbiotic fungus or does this type of communication exist between
one tree to the next tree.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
This is how the communication also happens. And if ecosystem
and there was a mother tree that was doing pretty
well off, but then you had saplings a couple miles
off in the forest that were in danger. There's this communication,
there's a distress signal that's sent from the sapling and
(13:16):
they're all communicating via this micro ryzel network. And what
happens is the mother could decide to channel its resources
to the saplings in helping it grow some more, which
is just it's beautiful. And so it brings on a
new meaning of you know, we have this notion of
(13:37):
saying the forest is alive. Right, these things are just communicating,
transferring information and resources. And micro rhizel mushrooms are the
nervous system of the forest, right, many ways of looking
at it, but without microhizel mushrooms. We wouldn't have trees
in a lot of places that we do now, or
(14:00):
you wouldn't have forest as dense and deep in the growth.
So then this plays into how much forest can actually
siphon off from sequestering carbon from the atmosphere. Microhizal mushrooms
or by far one of my favorite categories of mushrooms.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
I really loved how you describe that, because, I mean,
at first I was like, oh, this sounds scary, but
then you you describe such a beautiful relationship between the
tree and the fungus, and it's it's like almost emotional,
like how much they depend on each other and they used,
how much they use each other. The way you described
(14:39):
how the fungus moves underground and it is moving through things,
you know what reminded me of They reminded me of
the Last of Us. I don't know if you've been
watching that as a mushroom expert, cortescep, but they talk
about cordyceps all the time, and I feel like the
word cordycep now is now a part of the zeitgeist
(15:00):
because of this show, and we don't know a lot
about it, and this show is basically teaching us, and
we don't know if it's true or not, right, so
we just want to kind of have a little bit
of a reality check when it comes to courtusps and
human zombies.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
I always always get at least one person on the
high Ku recommends that show and I still haven't yet
watched it. I've heard about it so much that I
actually went I've read up on the show. Quartersps are
really cool because they sort of are the prime example
of a zombie like takeover and what that could look like.
(15:40):
Mushrooms are shaped in all sorts of ways, right. You'll
see some with caps, You'll see some with oozing jelly,
You'll see some with multiple fronds. But they're all meant
to enhance their sporelation process, which is just the way
that they released their sports, and the spores could germinate
on a lot of different things, right. It doesn't just
(16:03):
have to be the dead wood or the leaf litter
in the forest ecosystem. It can be a living tree.
Primarily a lot of insects and a ragnet are the
favorite host for the quarter steps. The way mushrooms grow
is by way of external excretion of enzymes, and these
enzymes are ponent enough to break down the kitan, which
(16:24):
is just the shell of these insects, and so once
a spore, which is microscopic, it's almost invisible to the eye.
It lands on this and to lands on this beetle.
As it eats its way into its body, it starts
filling it with mycilium. And the insect has no idea
(16:46):
this is happening. It is just living life as it
always was. It's a PG Friday, It's Taco Tuesday for it.
There is nothing going on. Slowly, but surely, the mysilium
completely encapsulates this insect, and at that point then something
(17:08):
very special happens. We still have here a chemical relationship.
The masilium starts flooding the brain of this insect with
chemicals of dopamine and a lot of excitement and a
lot of rage, and it starts to take control of
the movement of this insect, and it forces it not
(17:32):
too far off from its colony. It forces it to
the highest point by the colony, close enough to where
when the mushroom sprouts, its spores have a higher probability
of encountering more hosts like it. So this ant climbs
up the closest tree, looks at the twig that's really
(17:56):
high up, finds a leaf, clamps on the leaf, and
that's the last thing this insect ever does. Within yep,
and within days two weeks, the mushroom completely eats the
ant or the insect insight. And then we get this
cool and this really awesome looking horn that comes out
(18:18):
of the mushroom in the form of quartersps and quartersps.
Because at this point people may be like, ah, a
parasitic mushroom, Like it's kind of gross. I get why
they'd make a show about it, But it's actually really
popular in holistic medical practices.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
All right, wait wait, wait, wait wait, because you would
just talking about something a little while. That's not the
plot twist that I saw coming right.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Quartersps are known, especially in Asian medicine, right to enhance
athletic performance, speed up recovery.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So today we learn mushrooms can either create insect zombies
or boost your athletic performance. Choose your fighter.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
It's really cool. It's really cool. So as far as
the clinical trials that are being done in the West
right now, it's primarily for enhance energy, athletic performance and
speeding up recovery. There's also another medicinal factor. It's known
for in a lot of Asian countries, and it's known
as the mushroom that can slow down aging. It's really cool.
(19:27):
But just for more practical clinical research, we have found
that there is a specific compound known as quarti sapin
in these quartersap mushrooms. But believe me, this thing is
only going to get more popular because from what trial
is already showing from the last several decades, i'd say
ten to twenty years, there's a lot of research that's
(19:48):
being backed up and corroborated now in the scientific world
regarding the medicinal benefits of mushrooms and quarters apps. It's
right there with the top along with Lion's main and
the like.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Listen, the benefits seem great, but I don't feel like
those advances are enough to make me want to be
infected by mushrooms like Courtyceps last of Us style. I'm
just glad that's not possible, Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Same, Can I ask you a question?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Yeah, why not?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Right?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Because here's the thing. Every time we breathe in, unless
you're in a cleanly ventilated closed system. Yeah, every time
we're breathing in. You're breathing in at least ten to
at least thirty different mushroom spores, So why don't mushrooms? No,
it's okay, like breathe it in, Come on, come on, okay, okay, right,
(20:42):
So then the question is, you know, I know, is
I ask this and I get some funny answers, But
it's really simple. Why don't mushrooms grow inside of us?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
We're too warm for them.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Yes, our temperatures are hot enough to inhibit its growth,
but they can survive pretty warm temperatures.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
You know, I'm glad spores aren't germinating and growing in
my lungs, but I do know we have them on
our skin. We have a microbiome, so fun Guy exists
in our scalps, our hands, our feet, and you know,
instead of just the two of us, it's just the
three of us, fun God, bacteria and ourselves. And sometimes
you know, that balance gets out of line, and that's
(21:19):
when you start to see yeast or some other component
like growing too much. So when you see babies having
thrush all that white stuff in their mouth, or some
types of dandruff and acne are caused by yeast overgrowing
like Malicesia is the name of that yeast.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Wow, I did not know that.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Yeah, that's the cool thing about this dance we call
life and the dance that we have here in the universes.
Not everything is a giver, some things are takers. But
in some way, the levels of which these relationships are working,
it can create a whole organ system. For example, I
think you alluded to a perfect fact that our body
(21:58):
actually carries more helpful bacteria than not just the majority
of these bacteria or parasitic in nature and actually giving
us something back. They're helping us live. And of course,
when you have this imbalance between givers and takers, right
between these parasites that are just exploiting and not giving
(22:21):
us much back, this imbalance creates a wreck in the body,
and we see that in the form of rashes and
fungal infections and disease and illness. Right, But a healthy
symbiotic system is a body that has healthy parasites.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
And some people may be put off by this, and
I get that, but honestly, it's really the reality.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
That's such a good point.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I'm on TikTok, I'm a I won't say I'm a TikToker,
but I'm a TikTok watcher, and I feel like I
am on the mushroom side of TikTok where everybody's talking
about all these different mushrooms that can help you. Like
you mentioned that in the earlier on in our conversation,
Lions Maine. That's the one that's been creeping up a
(23:26):
lot on my for you page, And I feel like
people like the videos I'm seeing. I'm like, yeah, I
started taking lines made. Now is it a placebo I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Even if it.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Is, it's working, Oh wonderful. But that's the one that
I hear about a lot, is Lines Maine mushroom.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
It is a huge boom right now. What's going on
with the mushroom herbal medicinal space, right You have companies
coming out of the woodwork touting whatever remedies, whatever benefits
for their latest mushroom supplement and their latest mushroom. It's great.
The best way I would say is to keep yourself
informed and keep yourself protected obviously by you know, getting
(24:14):
in touch with Hyser Georgia. If you need a company
to be reviewed, of course, get in touch with us.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Oh but perfect.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yes, yes, of course, But I would say that generally
you want to get in the habit of understanding the
dosages that these companies are working with, because that's really
the whole playing field here that they're weeding through the companies.
In general, we know for sure that these mushrooms are
backed up scientifically with clinical research. Quarter steps enhance energy
(24:46):
and it speeds up recovery great because it has these
compounds known as polysaccharites that can help your immune system
benefit our health. So the main compounds that we derive
from these mushrooms think of your turkey tail, your Lion's maine,
your rati mushrooms, your quarter steps. These have unique groupings
(25:06):
of polysaccharides that either help strengthen our immune system, help
us fight against illness, help us provide energy. Taga is
one of the best mushrooms for information. Well, I think
it's the best mushroom for information, something like Lion's Main,
which is hands down the best mushroom for combating neurodegenerative diseases. Right,
(25:28):
health is a layered thing. Mushrooms can be used to
target the gut, They can be used to target the brain,
They can be used to target the heart for example.
I mean, this wouldn't be your primary treatment modality. But
try to think about what it is you want right,
what it is you're looking to enhance or optimize within
(25:50):
your system? Is it brain health? Is it focus? Is
it energy? Is it gut health? Is it better sleep
and move modulation? Because they are specific mushrooms that can
really help you get closer towards this at a much
faster rate.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Do you have to eat these mushrooms raw in order
to get the benefits?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
When we speak about medicinal mushrooms, we take a bit
of a different perspective. These are generally found in a
heart like texture once these mushrooms fruit, so some of
them are already hard. Think of your raichi mushrooms, your
turkey tail mushrooms, your you know, cordus steps aren't necessarily hard,
(26:31):
but they're usually dried out and a lot of these
are turned into powders.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Taga is really hard Lion's made. Although it's very fleshy
and moist, it's usually dried out and turned into a powder,
And so these are usually turned into powders and then
used in the form of teas. Now for something like
the tinstures. They're using certain chemical compounds to dissolve the
(26:58):
mushroom and this liquid and this is what we get
and as the concentrated form of this, mushrooms medicinal properties.
And so that's how the tinctures are made. But primarily
a lot is turned into powder. Tinctures are sort of
less in volume in the market. And then apart from
the tinctures, you have the powders. And then the powders
(27:19):
could be turned into capsules, okay, or or they're like yes,
but generally powder formed and then tea or you know,
directly turned into a tincture.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I think this just has me even more excited to
finally start my mushroom forging. I won't be eating anything, wrang,
I actually won't be picking anything. I'll just be taking
pictures and tagging hikes of Georgia.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Wait until after our workshop, I think you'll you'll definitely
feel a lot more confident.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
And Hikes of Georgia workshop.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
This was a really beautiful lab because it helped me
get out of the binary. The last of us had
me side eyeing my krimini mushrooms. You know, I like
them in my eggs. I like and with my chick
I like mushrooms with everything. I like it on my pizza.
But after watching that, I was like, maybe I need
to be a little bit more careful looking futy in
the light.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
And then even when thinking about breathing in spores, like
maybe we are just a messy blob of sales carrying
other organisms on our backs. Like everything is yuckie.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
There's stuff everywhere.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I know, the deeper you go into it, the more
convoluted it gets. And that's the beautiful thing, you know.
It reminds me of that quote. You gaze into this
abyss and the abyss gazes back, and it's this beautiful
process of you know, uncovering. Within the last two decades,
we've had a proliferation in DNA sequencing processes being amortized
(28:44):
across the globe. What this means is that we have
much more of an accurate way we can categorize these
mushrooms that were formerly unknown to us within their taxonomical
categorization to the highest degree of certainty. And so now
there are countless mushrooms being reclassified. Their countless mushrooms that
(29:05):
are being found. I believe within the next twenty to
thirty years, they are going to be even more edible
and medicinal mushrooms that we can talk about because the
classification technology has just gotten much better than what it
was before.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I think that that is a great way to say it.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I wonder what's next. Is it that we just haven't
found something that can do what they're doing on the
less of us? I don't know. Let's don't get into that.
If you're in Georgia and interested in learning more, be
sure to check out Ranger Darling and Hikes of Georgia
to see the workshops they're offering and guide it tours
so you can forge your own mushrooms. Zekiah, I'm packing
my bag now, scoot over, let's go. You can find
(29:50):
us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs podcast, tt
is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
And you can find Takia at Z he said so.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Issara Savez.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Dope Labs is sound design edited and mixed by James Barber,
Lamanada Media's Vice president of Partnerships and production is Jackie Danziger.
Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead
is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex
sudi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs
is executive produced by us T T Show Dia and
Zakia Wattley.
All right, the Last of Us just wrapped in. I
wasn't impressed to nothing me either.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I just did not think it was as interesting or
as gripping as the previous seasons. I was very bored, and.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I feel like the only takeaway was that I was
sideye in the oyster mushrooms at the Farmer's market and I.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Was like, listen, this is the first season of the
Last of Us. We've been needing to talk about this.
So oh, because did I tell you I am taking
a mushroom supplement. I'm taking Lion's main mushroom girl.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
No, I mean nothing wrong with it. Do you feel okay?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I feel I mean, you know, I don't know if
it's just like all in my mind or if it's
actually doing something because I took it because I wanted
to like make sure that I wasn't like having so
much brain fog and stuff like that. Okay, so to
help me focus, and I think it's going okay. I
am not sure if it's doing anything, but I don't
feel like I haven't been focused.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Okay, all right, long as you're not clicking like on
the Last of Us, we're good. We're good.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Could you imagine I'm TT and I'm Zakiyah, and this
is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast
that mixes hardcore science with pop culture and a healthy
dose of friendship. All Right, I think we already know
(01:25):
funger everywhere. Yes, that is one of the first things
that we know.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And I know just from a little bit of microbiology background.
I got to learn a little bit about fungus, but
I know they have these like vast underground networks. They
live on our skin and our guts, and they can
even be spores in the air.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I don't have a biology background, so I know nothing
of those things. But I do know the pop culture,
which is that everyone is obsessed. HBO's the Last of Us,
put Cordyceps on the center stage, and TikTok Wellness keeps
pushing lines made lattes and creams and all these different things.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Girl, I had a mushroom beer the other day. I
mean mushroom root beer.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Oh there's mushroom coffee.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yes, there is also foraging for mushrooms is booming.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Too, absolutely Now.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I don't know. It's one thing to id birds. That's
because I'm not gonna eat them. I don't know if
I can I d mushrooms?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
You well, the only bird I mean is chicken. I think,
oh in those quail eggs. We won't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And you're eating turkey, girl, What are you told?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Right? I do eat turkey? Okay, So you know these
these animals just don't register my mind when I'm eating.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Sorry, Peter thinking about the mushrooms and fun guy, Like,
what do we want to know?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I think what I want to know is which parts
of the Cordyceps horror are rooted in like real actual
mushrooms science, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
It's like, where does the science separate from the fiction?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah? Where is the line between the sigh and the five?
That whole show.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Made me so nervous and I want to know, like
I'm a Marketer's dream. Okay, I'll try it.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
All.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Are these mushroom coffees and tinctures and brain elixers, you know,
things to help lift the fog? Are they legit or
are they just clever marketing?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
M Yeah? I mean if we take it a step further,
it's like, how do fungi affect us every day? Like?
How does it? How does it impact our well being
and like our lives.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, well, I think it's pretty clear today we're diving
into fungui, those mysterious little things. And I'm not talking
like Mario Brothers little you know, Tolstool. We're talking about
things that are in our food, under our feet and
on the last of us, controlling dead people. So we
(03:55):
went to an expert in fungui and in foraging for
fungui too.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
My name is Darling Go and you know I would
say that first and foremost, I am a scientist. I
do study and I major in data science at Georgia
State University and so Apart from being a full time student,
I'm also a park ranger at the Arabia Mountain National
(04:19):
Heritage Area. I am the founder of Hikes of Georgia
as well Hikes of Georgia as an educational and science
based organization that's really meant to educate people on the
study of fungi and mold as well as just general
nature knowledge and you know, helping our community become better
stewards of our land, because if not us, who will awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
From park ranger to data scientists, you're connecting the dots
between nature and technology and that is really really cool
and we're really excited to have you. Okay, So my
question is is that we want to break down mycology
for our audience. What does the word mean?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Mycology works from es centrally just a study of fungi,
and the fungi comes from the micopart and so the
ology we would know as generally being attributed to fields
of study. When we think of the word mushroom and
we think of the word fung gui, they can be synonymous.
(05:25):
But technically the fung guy is the body.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So we know the fruiting body that we typically see
or we think of having that top and stem, that
is what we typically call a mushroom. But there's so
much more that you mentioned where the fun guy are
growing underground, and sometimes there are things that we can't
even see. I can remember growing up thinking about fung
guy as decomposers, like they help stuff go away, or
(05:51):
when wood is rotting, you're gonna see mushrooms there. Yes.
Since then, and as I've grown, I've learned more. I
think about the micro rhizal networks and I think they
don't get enough credit. You know, I'm all about giving
credit whorres to. But I feel like they don't get
enough credit. Yeah, so I want to tell us a
(06:12):
little bit about these networks. It help us imagine what
would our force look like without those fun guy in
the mix, because I think we don't really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Y's right, absolutely, it's a wonderful question. By the way, Zakia,
this opens up a whole You know, we can get
very abstract here, but let's start very low level and
we'll work our way up. There are three main categories.
Off mushrooms or a fun guy. One of the main
categories which are the saprophetic mushrooms. Saprophetic mushrooms, it's just
(06:46):
the technical term for a decomposer, right, okay, And primarily
a cool thing about them is usually on your hikes.
This is going to be one of the more popular
categories of mushrooms that you come across, because decomposition is
always occurring in the ecosystem. And then we have another
minor category with the smallest category would be the parasitic mushrooms.
(07:09):
They have their own important ecological functions. For example, if
there was a subset of an ecosystem of trees and
an ecosystem that was already susceptible to a given disease.
They're a compromisation by these parasitic fungi a lot easier.
And this is generally what sort of trees. These parasitic
fungi will prey on organisms that are already susceptible, and
(07:33):
sometimes this parasitic fungui could easily mitigate the spread of
disease to the greater population of the ecosystem. So exactly,
although they're pretty gnarly right in nature, things are just
merely designed beautifully with a cause and effect, and I
think the more we understand that, the better we understand
(07:54):
ourselves too. But getting onto your main point, these infamous
Michael rises mushrooms and what's all to talk about them
or microhyzel fungi. Think of it as filamentous threads that
are roughly just one cell wall thick, and they're just
moving underground, just spreading right. No eyes, no ears, no
(08:19):
taste buds. It's super cool. These are organisms with no
central nervous system that are still one of the most
effective at acquiring resources, which is what makes it profound.
But these microizal mushrooms is they're underground, they're looking for
certain chemicals, and these chemicals are exactly what the trees
(08:40):
are providing. There's always a chemical universe and a chemical
relationship and dynamics going on underground. The roots of trees
are pumping out these chemicals that attract mushrooms that can
help provide them more resources. And here's where it gets
even more fun. So this michael rhyzel mycilium, which is
(09:04):
the network of this body of fungi, right, we refer
to it as just a mycilium network. This myceilial network
is it's spreading underground but encounters a chemical from a
root of a tree that it thinks it can work
with and maybe pair up for life. And what happens
here is super cool. When they're within proximity of each other,
(09:28):
the tree will keep letting out the chemical that's attracting
this michel rhyzel mushroom that wants to form a relationship
with it, and the micro hyzel myceolium realizes this and
it starts letting out a specific chemical that lets it
know that, hey, you know your best friends here type
of deal.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
So that's chemotaxis moving away from or in this case,
towards different chemical signals.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Right, it's like their secret chemical message. And what happens
is is and this is science and we've been able
to figure out in the last decade. But as we
know now, the root of the tree will let down
it saw wall.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yeah, I saw that. Plants or trees recognize it as
a symbiotic relationship, and the plants just dissolve their seal
walls in that region that's near the fun guy and
say like, come on in, I'm rolling out the red
carpet for you.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Okay, Okay, I think I get it. So it's building
an infrastructure. It's kind of like a sidewalk welcoming you
into the tree.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Not just a sidewalk, a highway where nutrients and information
is being passed twenty four to seven, three hundred and
sixty five days of the week. Right, And this is
the mic hoorizal relationship that's formed.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
This is really interesting. How does it affect us or
does it affect us?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Well, roughly eighty percent of trees are connected to a
symbiotic relationship with some fungi, right, So they're connected with
some sort of mic rhizo fungi, and fungi can be
found everywhere in the World's the Arctic apart from those
two poles, but everywhere else it's fair game. Even in
deserts it's it's interesting. So essentially, this tree is siphering
(11:15):
off carbon and it doesn't use all of this carbon,
though it saves roughly twenty to thirty percent. It turns
it into glucose and it trades it with the micylorhizol mushroom.
It gives it sugar, and then what does the micro
rhizal mushroom give in return? The myceelial network is so
(11:35):
adept it can reach deep underground reservoirs the roots of
trees can never dare imagine to reach right or just
nutrient spots from dead animals or highly nutrient locations that
are a little bit further off from the tree's main
location that its roots can't reach to, and it's sending
over the phosphorus, the nitrogen, and these are some of
(11:58):
the main nutrients provide.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
We're talking about chemical signals that are saying like, hey,
me and you, two different species, let's cooperate. And I
feel like that's a little wild because when we think
about cooperative I'm always thinking like in one species, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I, Yeah, that's wild. I mean that's a strong scent,
that's strong cologne, strong perfume. You know, is that baccarat rouge?
I heard that that's what all the young folks are.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Wearing these I'm not smelling that. Now.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Is this limited to just tree or plant communicating with
symbiotic fungus or does this type of communication exist between
one tree to the next tree.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
This is how the communication also happens. And if ecosystem
and there was a mother tree that was doing pretty
well off, but then you had saplings a couple miles
off in the forest that were in danger. There's this communication,
there's a distress signal that's sent from the sapling and
(13:16):
they're all communicating via this micro ryzel network. And what
happens is the mother could decide to channel its resources
to the saplings in helping it grow some more, which
is just it's beautiful. And so it brings on a
new meaning of you know, we have this notion of
(13:37):
saying the forest is alive. Right, these things are just communicating,
transferring information and resources. And micro rhizel mushrooms are the
nervous system of the forest, right, many ways of looking
at it, but without microhizel mushrooms. We wouldn't have trees
in a lot of places that we do now, or
(14:00):
you wouldn't have forest as dense and deep in the growth.
So then this plays into how much forest can actually
siphon off from sequestering carbon from the atmosphere. Microhizal mushrooms
or by far one of my favorite categories of mushrooms.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
I really loved how you describe that, because, I mean,
at first I was like, oh, this sounds scary, but
then you you describe such a beautiful relationship between the
tree and the fungus, and it's it's like almost emotional,
like how much they depend on each other and they used,
how much they use each other. The way you described
(14:39):
how the fungus moves underground and it is moving through things,
you know what reminded me of They reminded me of
the Last of Us. I don't know if you've been
watching that as a mushroom expert, cortescep, but they talk
about cordyceps all the time, and I feel like the
word cordycep now is now a part of the zeitgeist
(15:00):
because of this show, and we don't know a lot
about it, and this show is basically teaching us, and
we don't know if it's true or not, right, so
we just want to kind of have a little bit
of a reality check when it comes to courtusps and
human zombies.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
I always always get at least one person on the
high Ku recommends that show and I still haven't yet
watched it. I've heard about it so much that I
actually went I've read up on the show. Quartersps are
really cool because they sort of are the prime example
of a zombie like takeover and what that could look like.
(15:40):
Mushrooms are shaped in all sorts of ways, right. You'll
see some with caps, You'll see some with oozing jelly,
You'll see some with multiple fronds. But they're all meant
to enhance their sporelation process, which is just the way
that they released their sports, and the spores could germinate
on a lot of different things, right. It doesn't just
(16:03):
have to be the dead wood or the leaf litter
in the forest ecosystem. It can be a living tree.
Primarily a lot of insects and a ragnet are the
favorite host for the quarter steps. The way mushrooms grow
is by way of external excretion of enzymes, and these
enzymes are ponent enough to break down the kitan, which
(16:24):
is just the shell of these insects, and so once
a spore, which is microscopic, it's almost invisible to the eye.
It lands on this and to lands on this beetle.
As it eats its way into its body, it starts
filling it with mycilium. And the insect has no idea
(16:46):
this is happening. It is just living life as it
always was. It's a PG Friday, It's Taco Tuesday for it.
There is nothing going on. Slowly, but surely, the mysilium
completely encapsulates this insect, and at that point then something
(17:08):
very special happens. We still have here a chemical relationship.
The masilium starts flooding the brain of this insect with
chemicals of dopamine and a lot of excitement and a
lot of rage, and it starts to take control of
the movement of this insect, and it forces it not
(17:32):
too far off from its colony. It forces it to
the highest point by the colony, close enough to where
when the mushroom sprouts, its spores have a higher probability
of encountering more hosts like it. So this ant climbs
up the closest tree, looks at the twig that's really
(17:56):
high up, finds a leaf, clamps on the leaf, and
that's the last thing this insect ever does. Within yep,
and within days two weeks, the mushroom completely eats the
ant or the insect insight. And then we get this
cool and this really awesome looking horn that comes out
(18:18):
of the mushroom in the form of quartersps and quartersps.
Because at this point people may be like, ah, a
parasitic mushroom, Like it's kind of gross. I get why
they'd make a show about it, But it's actually really
popular in holistic medical practices.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
All right, wait wait, wait, wait wait, because you would
just talking about something a little while. That's not the
plot twist that I saw coming right.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Quartersps are known, especially in Asian medicine, right to enhance
athletic performance, speed up recovery.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So today we learn mushrooms can either create insect zombies
or boost your athletic performance. Choose your fighter.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
It's really cool. It's really cool. So as far as
the clinical trials that are being done in the West
right now, it's primarily for enhance energy, athletic performance and
speeding up recovery. There's also another medicinal factor. It's known
for in a lot of Asian countries, and it's known
as the mushroom that can slow down aging. It's really cool.
(19:27):
But just for more practical clinical research, we have found
that there is a specific compound known as quarti sapin
in these quartersap mushrooms. But believe me, this thing is
only going to get more popular because from what trial
is already showing from the last several decades, i'd say
ten to twenty years, there's a lot of research that's
(19:48):
being backed up and corroborated now in the scientific world
regarding the medicinal benefits of mushrooms and quarters apps. It's
right there with the top along with Lion's main and
the like.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Listen, the benefits seem great, but I don't feel like
those advances are enough to make me want to be
infected by mushrooms like Courtyceps last of Us style. I'm
just glad that's not possible, Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Same, Can I ask you a question?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Yeah, why not?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Right?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Because here's the thing. Every time we breathe in, unless
you're in a cleanly ventilated closed system. Yeah, every time
we're breathing in. You're breathing in at least ten to
at least thirty different mushroom spores, So why don't mushrooms? No,
it's okay, like breathe it in, Come on, come on, okay, okay, right,
(20:42):
So then the question is, you know, I know, is
I ask this and I get some funny answers, But
it's really simple. Why don't mushrooms grow inside of us?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
We're too warm for them.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Yes, our temperatures are hot enough to inhibit its growth,
but they can survive pretty warm temperatures.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
You know, I'm glad spores aren't germinating and growing in
my lungs, but I do know we have them on
our skin. We have a microbiome, so fun Guy exists
in our scalps, our hands, our feet, and you know,
instead of just the two of us, it's just the
three of us, fun God, bacteria and ourselves. And sometimes
you know, that balance gets out of line, and that's
(21:19):
when you start to see yeast or some other component
like growing too much. So when you see babies having
thrush all that white stuff in their mouth, or some
types of dandruff and acne are caused by yeast overgrowing
like Malicesia is the name of that yeast.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Wow, I did not know that.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Yeah, that's the cool thing about this dance we call
life and the dance that we have here in the universes.
Not everything is a giver, some things are takers. But
in some way, the levels of which these relationships are working,
it can create a whole organ system. For example, I
think you alluded to a perfect fact that our body
(21:58):
actually carries more helpful bacteria than not just the majority
of these bacteria or parasitic in nature and actually giving
us something back. They're helping us live. And of course,
when you have this imbalance between givers and takers, right
between these parasites that are just exploiting and not giving
(22:21):
us much back, this imbalance creates a wreck in the body,
and we see that in the form of rashes and
fungal infections and disease and illness. Right, But a healthy
symbiotic system is a body that has healthy parasites.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
And some people may be put off by this, and
I get that, but honestly, it's really the reality.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
That's such a good point.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I'm on TikTok, I'm a I won't say I'm a TikToker,
but I'm a TikTok watcher, and I feel like I
am on the mushroom side of TikTok where everybody's talking
about all these different mushrooms that can help you. Like
you mentioned that in the earlier on in our conversation,
Lions Maine. That's the one that's been creeping up a
(23:26):
lot on my for you page, And I feel like
people like the videos I'm seeing. I'm like, yeah, I
started taking lines made. Now is it a placebo I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Even if it.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Is, it's working, Oh wonderful. But that's the one that
I hear about a lot, is Lines Maine mushroom.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
It is a huge boom right now. What's going on
with the mushroom herbal medicinal space, right You have companies
coming out of the woodwork touting whatever remedies, whatever benefits
for their latest mushroom supplement and their latest mushroom. It's great.
The best way I would say is to keep yourself
informed and keep yourself protected obviously by you know, getting
(24:14):
in touch with Hyser Georgia. If you need a company
to be reviewed, of course, get in touch with us.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Oh but perfect.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yes, yes, of course, But I would say that generally
you want to get in the habit of understanding the
dosages that these companies are working with, because that's really
the whole playing field here that they're weeding through the companies.
In general, we know for sure that these mushrooms are
backed up scientifically with clinical research. Quarter steps enhance energy
(24:46):
and it speeds up recovery great because it has these
compounds known as polysaccharites that can help your immune system
benefit our health. So the main compounds that we derive
from these mushrooms think of your turkey tail, your Lion's maine,
your rati mushrooms, your quarter steps. These have unique groupings
(25:06):
of polysaccharides that either help strengthen our immune system, help
us fight against illness, help us provide energy. Taga is
one of the best mushrooms for information. Well, I think
it's the best mushroom for information, something like Lion's Main,
which is hands down the best mushroom for combating neurodegenerative diseases. Right,
(25:28):
health is a layered thing. Mushrooms can be used to
target the gut, They can be used to target the brain,
They can be used to target the heart for example.
I mean, this wouldn't be your primary treatment modality. But
try to think about what it is you want right,
what it is you're looking to enhance or optimize within
(25:50):
your system? Is it brain health? Is it focus? Is
it energy? Is it gut health? Is it better sleep
and move modulation? Because they are specific mushrooms that can
really help you get closer towards this at a much
faster rate.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Do you have to eat these mushrooms raw in order
to get the benefits?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
When we speak about medicinal mushrooms, we take a bit
of a different perspective. These are generally found in a
heart like texture once these mushrooms fruit, so some of
them are already hard. Think of your raichi mushrooms, your
turkey tail mushrooms, your you know, cordus steps aren't necessarily hard,
(26:31):
but they're usually dried out and a lot of these
are turned into powders.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Taga is really hard Lion's made. Although it's very fleshy
and moist, it's usually dried out and turned into a powder,
And so these are usually turned into powders and then
used in the form of teas. Now for something like
the tinstures. They're using certain chemical compounds to dissolve the
(26:58):
mushroom and this liquid and this is what we get
and as the concentrated form of this, mushrooms medicinal properties.
And so that's how the tinctures are made. But primarily
a lot is turned into powder. Tinctures are sort of
less in volume in the market. And then apart from
the tinctures, you have the powders. And then the powders
(27:19):
could be turned into capsules, okay, or or they're like yes,
but generally powder formed and then tea or you know,
directly turned into a tincture.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I think this just has me even more excited to
finally start my mushroom forging. I won't be eating anything, wrang,
I actually won't be picking anything. I'll just be taking
pictures and tagging hikes of Georgia.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Wait until after our workshop, I think you'll you'll definitely
feel a lot more confident.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
And Hikes of Georgia workshop.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
This was a really beautiful lab because it helped me
get out of the binary. The last of us had
me side eyeing my krimini mushrooms. You know, I like
them in my eggs. I like and with my chick
I like mushrooms with everything. I like it on my pizza.
But after watching that, I was like, maybe I need
to be a little bit more careful looking futy in
the light.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
And then even when thinking about breathing in spores, like
maybe we are just a messy blob of sales carrying
other organisms on our backs. Like everything is yuckie.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
There's stuff everywhere.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I know, the deeper you go into it, the more
convoluted it gets. And that's the beautiful thing, you know.
It reminds me of that quote. You gaze into this
abyss and the abyss gazes back, and it's this beautiful
process of you know, uncovering. Within the last two decades,
we've had a proliferation in DNA sequencing processes being amortized
(28:44):
across the globe. What this means is that we have
much more of an accurate way we can categorize these
mushrooms that were formerly unknown to us within their taxonomical
categorization to the highest degree of certainty. And so now
there are countless mushrooms being reclassified. Their countless mushrooms that
(29:05):
are being found. I believe within the next twenty to
thirty years, they are going to be even more edible
and medicinal mushrooms that we can talk about because the
classification technology has just gotten much better than what it
was before.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I think that that is a great way to say it.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I wonder what's next. Is it that we just haven't
found something that can do what they're doing on the
less of us? I don't know. Let's don't get into that.
If you're in Georgia and interested in learning more, be
sure to check out Ranger Darling and Hikes of Georgia
to see the workshops they're offering and guide it tours
so you can forge your own mushrooms. Zekiah, I'm packing
my bag now, scoot over, let's go. You can find
(29:50):
us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs podcast, tt
is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
And you can find Takia at Z he said so.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Issara Savez.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Dope Labs is sound design edited and mixed by James Barber,
Lamanada Media's Vice president of Partnerships and production is Jackie Danziger.
Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead
is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex
sudi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs
is executive produced by us T T Show Dia and
Zakia Wattley.
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