September 28, 2025 • 34 mins
Periods are more than just cramps and cravings. This week, Titi and Zakiya are joined by research psychologist and author of “Period Brain” Dr. Sarah Hill to break down what’s really going on in our brains and bodies throughout the menstrual cycle. They unpack the science behind hormonal shifts, why estrogen and progesterone are doing way more than we think, and how the medical field has ignored these complexities for too long. From PMS to PMDD, from stigma to science, this episode dives into how periods impact energy, mood, relationships—and how understanding your own cycle can change everything. Whether you have a period or love someone who does, this one’s for you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Okay, t T.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Think back, how many times have you heard somebody say, Oh,
she's probably just on her period?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Like that explains everything.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Too many times? And I hate it. I really hate it, because, yeah, periods.
People use periods as an excuse for every mood, every craving,
and every decision. And folks say things like, oh, a
woman shouldn't be president because she has the nuclear codes
and she was star war and all.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
These things like that. It's very annoying to me. Hey
not on my watch.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
What's wild about all of that is that a lot
of people never really learned the full picture.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I think probably middle school is when we get the basics.
You know, bleeding cramps, paths, and champs. That's it, that's it, period.
But what we don't learn is how cycles affect your
energy and your focus and even sometimes the way your
brain works.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I mean, so, whether you have a cycle, or you
know someone that does, or just want to understand the
science behind it all, this episode is for you.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So let's jump into the recitation. What do we know?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, I know that most people with the uterus have periods,
and I don't care what you say, periods.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yes, amen, amen, amen.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
And we know that there's a cycle that is about
a month and that our hormone levels fluctuate. We also
know that a lot of people don't know what's going
on at the chemical level or molecular lesson.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
This is with I am people. I have no clue. Okay, well,
then what do we want to know?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I want to know a lot of things. I want
to know one why it's so hard for folks to
talk about periods. You would think that with so many
people who have periods every single month, that this would
be something that we would all feel comfortable with.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, but we still had in tampons. That's the problem.
And I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
You know, it's like one end of the extreme or
the other we don't talk about periods at all, or
people like free bleeding, let it be all over your pants.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
No, I think there's something. Okay, there is a middle ground.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Okay, Yeah, I want to see more there, more clustering there.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I want to know the hormones that are at play
the key. I know you know bodily things are your wheelhouse,
but we've talked about it, so I won't say I
don't understand at all, because you have trained me up, friend,
But I just want to understand more about the fluctuations
and like how all of this works.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And I think even just knowing generally what the hormones
are doesn't answer the question about how they are regulated
and how that's linked to like PMS and other menstrual conditions.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
So I I want to know.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
See all of those puzzle pieces together, yes, and I
want to know if there's anything that we can do
to have these periods go go easy on us, go.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Is sinking? Where's the deal? So we don't have any
more of that, let's jump into the recitation.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
We brought in doctor Sarah Hill. She's a researcher who
spent years studying the science of periods and hormones, and
she's here to give us the real story.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
I'm doctor Sarah Hill, and I'm a research psychologist and
author of This is Your Brain on birth control and
my new book, The Period Brain.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I loved the way the books started, and so that's
where I want our conversation is start with addressing the
elephant in the room and asking you, why does talking
about our periods make us so uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
I think that for a really long time, women were
made to feel like lesser, like sort of inferior versions
of men because we have hormone cycle. And so I
think it makes everybody get a little bit queasy if
we start talking too much about the way that women's
hormones can affect the way that they experience the world,
just because it feels like something that could be used
(04:12):
against us.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
And you know, and there's and I understand that fear.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
I mean, it's like, this is a history of women, right,
It's like anytime we talk about anything that makes us
different from men, that can be turned on its head.
But the truth of the matter is that there's no
truth to that being a sign of weakness or problematic.
So even though all of us have been led to
believe that the fact that women have two primary sex hormones,
(04:36):
estrogen and progesterone instead of one like testosterone, that there's
something wrong with that, right, and that that means that
you're flaky and you can't be depended on because you know,
you're just whimsical and capricious. That's just simply not true.
It's like our hormones cycle, and so they're cyclical, but
they're not unpredictable. And one thing that I always tell
people is like, if you tell me a woman's age,
(04:59):
and you tell me I made the first day of
her last menstrual cycle, I can tell you with an
alarming degree of certainty what's happening with her sex hormones, right,
And the same isn't true for men because men's hormone,
their primary sex hormone, testosterone, is actually a little bit capricious,
and it responds to anything like if a man sees
a beautiful woman, his testosterone goes up. If he loses
(05:20):
an argument with a friend, or he loses a competition,
his testosterone goes down. If his favorite sports team wins.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
It goes up.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
If his favorite sports team loses, it goes down. And
there's even been research showing that men's testosterone changes if
they see a gun, right, So if men see a gun,
their tesosterone goes up. I mean, so it's like, whose
hormone is flighty and capricious?
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Now?
Speaker 4 (05:41):
And so I think that there's a tendency to get
a little uncomfortable about these things. But I think that
we need to stop stigmatizing these conversations because so many
women aren't ever taught anything about what they're you know,
they're like, oh, okay, you can get a period, and
you know, here's some you know, menstrual products, and then
it's just like right, you know, that's the end of
the conversation. But there's no larger conversation about, Okay, like
(06:03):
why is it that we have these cycles? What do
the changes in hormones do in terms of changing the
way that we think and feel, experience the world our
sexual desire or appetites or calorie needs, Like we're not
taught at any of that. Like I had to get
a PhD To learn that stuff, you know, and it
was just crazy. You know, you shouldn't have to go
to grad school to learn your body.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Doctor Hill, I want to pause and just stop for
a moment to talk about that complexity right now. What
you just said is recyclical, and that's been used against
us in mainstream media and in conversation around women, because
when I was thinking about it as you were talking,
everything we rely on is cyclical, the day and night
(06:45):
cyclical cyclical, all the calendar cyclical.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Okay, also cyclical.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Okay, Yeah, that's not reacting, like right, So I'm just saying,
let's all pay attention and reading is fundamental when we
think about the complexity in how the sexes are different.
I think in science and research, sometimes that's been flatten
and like people don't look at those differences. I want
you to talk a little bit about how different industries,
(07:12):
particularly the medical industry, feed into that or why they
may even want it to be that way.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Yeah, there is this tendency and people kind of talk
about it with medicine. You know, you hear about this
term like bikini medicine, which is just this idea that
doctors assume that men and women are essentially interchangeable except
for the parts of the body that can be covered
by a bikini. Right, And so it's this idea that
women's hearts and men's hearts are the same, women's lungs
and men's lungs are the same, women's brains and men's
(07:38):
brains are the same, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But there's a growing body of research in all of
these different fields of science that support the idea that
this is not true, right, and that there's sex differentiation
in everything is you know, even these little tiny details
of our body, like the way that our bodies like
to deal with bacteria.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Women's immune systems tend to deal with bacterial threats using
ones of mechanisms. Men's bodies tend to deal with bacterial
threats using a different set of mechanisms, right. And the
reason that this is the case is just that women's
bodies are wired for pregnancy and reproduction. And this is
true whether we want to have babies or not. It's
like our bodies were built for that. And what that
means is that our body had to come up with
(08:18):
a whole bunch of workarounds from everything from our circulatory
system tor metabolism to our immune system to be able
to support another human being living inside of our body,
you know, alien type form, you know, where it's like
we had to our body had to figure out what
to do with all that, and that's created for all
of these different systems workarounds that they've had to do.
(08:38):
And part of the sort of legacy of all of
that is that you get sex differentiation in all of
these different types of systems. And unfortunately this is inconvenient
for science, right because scientists would like to just be
able to collect data on a handful of people, right,
Men a little bit, some men's and women no different
and not have to worry about testing for sex different right,
(09:00):
because that means that they have to if they're going
to test for sex differences, they have to collect twice
as much data. And then with women, because they have
cycling hormones, they've got to deal with that. I think
it was like nineteen ninety three when the National Institutes
of Health required science researchers to include women in biomedical research.
And the way that researchers handled that wasn't by this
(09:22):
is wonderful opportunity to learn about women. Like let's collect
data on equal numbers of men and women and look
for sex differentiation. And since women have these cycling hormones,
let's measure them at different cycle phases to see whether
they respond to treatment differently depending on what's going on
with their hormones. No, Instead, what scientists said, like, oh, shoot, okay,
(09:44):
we have to include women in research, and they've got
these pesky hormones that cycle. So here's an idea. Let's
just include some women in our research, right, not enough
to actually test for sex differences. And for studying humans,
let's only study them when hormones are really low, so
in the early phases of the menstrual cycle. So that
(10:04):
way we don't have to worry about their hormones interfering
with the results.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Which is so crazy, because it's crazy, it's.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Crazy, I know, it's so a few days.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
So they study women in this period of five days,
you know, and in non human animals. At anytime there's
a like a medical intervention that's new, like a new
drug or a new therapy or new treatment, it always
has to go through this pre clinical process first, where
it's tested usually on mice and rats. And the way
that they do this pre clinical work to include females,
(10:35):
what they do to manage their hormonal variation is that
they just pull their ovaries out, and so they're testing
on females with no sex hormones. And so they're like,
look at us, we're including females and research without recognizing
the fact that women are inherently hormonal, right, It's like
we are, like our hormones are part of who we are,
(10:57):
and as a hormone cycle that changes the way that
every thing acts in the body, and then then just
ignoring it, removing that is the source of things.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
So it allows us to include women as research subjects
in science, but it doesn't teach us anything about women
because we're studying them in this.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
Little tiny corner of their.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Cycle when hormones are low, and we know very little
about them when they're in states when hormones are high.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Let's talk about hormones because that is that is the
piaced resistance, and this whole thing is our hormones. Can
you explain the period cycle from start to finish because
I feel like I just learned what the lutele phase
was like six months ago on TikTok, right, and somebody
told me about it, and I was like, do we
(11:57):
all have that?
Speaker 5 (11:58):
Yeah? That's so funny, Like is it a just.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I was like, I've never heard of this, So can
you tell us what's happening hormonally through those different stages
and talk about estrogen versus progestion.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Absolutely, absolutely the menstrual cycle, Like the day you get
your period is the first day of your cycle, and
when you get your period, hormone levels are at their
lowest in the cycle. So even though women are oftentimes
given a hard time about being.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Hormonal, you know when they're on their period.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
This is actually when we release hormonal and when the
brain notices that hormone levels are low, it will stimulate
the ovaries through the pituitary land. So it'll tell the
pituitary gland, stimulate the ovaries and let's start some egg development,
because it knows that if hormone levels are low, it
means that they're not pregnant and it's time to start
maturing egg follicles, so that way they can prepare for ovulation.
(12:47):
And the ovaries then will start maturing egg follicles. And
as these follicles begin to develop, they actually start releasing estrogen,
and so this is one of the primary ways that
the female body produces estrogen or estrodile from egg development.
So after a few days of these egg follicles starting
to mature, one will take over. It becomes it's known
(13:07):
as the dominant follicle, which ever one is like growing
the fastest and most robust. It's sort of the chosen one,
and then it continues to grow. The others dissolve back
into the body. And this is going to be the
egg that's going to be released at ovulation. Right now,
this egg is maturing and maturing and maturing. Estrogen levels
are rising and rising and rising, and then you're getting
(13:28):
to the period of ovulation. And ovulation is of course
when an egg is released, and during this time estrogen
levels are super high. So estrogen levels peak and you ovulate,
and the period about five days prior to ovulation and
then within twenty four hours of ovulation itself, this is
(13:48):
the period in the cycle that's known as the fertile window,
and this is when sex can lead to conception. And
so this is a time when women's bodies are very
much oriented towards all things attraction and sex. Right, so,
estrogen we can think about these first fourteen days of
the cycle as being all about getting all of the
(14:09):
pieces in place for sex to lead to conception. I mean,
it's all oriented toward attraction and sex. And so women
tend to feel sexier in this estrogenic phase of the cycle.
They tend to have more sex, they sound sexier, they
smell sexier, they move sexier. They're better able to discriminate
between high and low quality mates because their sensory neurons
(14:30):
are super sensitive to these fine tune differences between men.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Okay, so the first day of your period is day one,
and your hormones are at their lowest. Then your body
starts prepping for possible pregnancy, whether you want it or not,
and things start to get a little sexy. That's the
first fourteen days. What about the rest of the month.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Now, that empty egg follicle actually becomes a temporary endocrine
structure that lasts about two weeks, and it releases women's
second primary sex hormone, which is progesterone. This is that
luteal phase, right, that so few people know about. And
this is the last two weeks of your cycle before
your next period begins, And this is your body is
(15:11):
actually shifting during this time from a state where you
were optimized for sex and attraction, and it's shifting you
into a state that is optimized for implantation of an
embryo and pregnancy.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
And so these are two totally different sets of activities.
The things that your body needs to do to attract
a mate are very different than the things that your
body needs to do to maintain a pregnancy. And that's
why we have two primary sex hormones instead of one
is that our bodies have to do two things to reproduce,
and the result of these hormonal changes there again, they're
sort of orienting you toward this goal that has to
(15:45):
do with the reproductive process. And so it's generally instead
of being a time when women experience increase sexual desire
and they're feeling really sexy, instead women feel not sexy.
Their libido tends to decrease, and any sex they have
is less about and that they desire tends to be
less about a need to like scratch a sexual itch,
(16:06):
and tends to be more about like the need to connect.
So the meaning of sex changes because this is a
period in the cycle when sex cannot lead to conception.
I mean, you can't get pregnant from sex you have
during the last two weeks of the cycle, and so
it serves a totally different function during that time than
it does during the first. And it's also a time
when our because our body is remodeling itself and getting
(16:28):
ready for the possibility of pregnancy, our metabolism increases, our
calorie needs increase during the second two weeks of the cycle,
and of course we aren't ever told about that, and
so women feel really hungry. No, no, So we feel
hungry and then we're like, why am I so hungry?
And then we develop this bad relationship with ourselves where
we think that we have no self control because you know,
(16:49):
look at me, and you know eating all my sons
Halloween candy and just a hypothetical example gives me, James,
it's me, it was me. And as we have these
changes where our calorie needs increase, our respiration rate increases,
(17:10):
our heart rate increases, we become more sensitive to threat detection.
So any sign that there might be something wrong with
the relationship that we have, either with our extended village
or with our partners become more noticeable and salient to us,
because again, we're all about trying to protect ourselves and
protect the possibility of an embryo, and so we're vulnerable
(17:31):
to threats, and our the threat detection areas of our
brain become more interconnected with other areas of our brain
and make it more aware of threats. We tend to
be more inward facing. We don't want as much stimulation
because our body is doing a lot of work and
it's metabolically expensive. We're sleepier, and so there's this whole shift.
You know, this whole shift is our bodies preparing for
(17:53):
the possibility of implantation and pregnancy. And the reason that
so many women feel so terrible during the last two
weeks of the cycle is because a we're never told
about any of this, right, so we have no idea
what's going on, and it's like, I just feel really sensitive,
and then we blow up at our partner, right because
we're feeling like everything is a problem because it seems
(18:13):
like a threat because we're not told, like, hey, your
brain is literally more interconnected with the threat areas, and
just so you know, you'd be alarm bells might be
sounding more easily than they do in different parts of
the cycle, and having awareness of that is like so
helpful in terms of communicating within a relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
We've been grading ourselves against the wrong rubric.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
You said it perfectly, and.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
So then we're constantly like, why am I failing? Why
am I failing? I'm curious if you could talk a
little bit more about when there are differences in how
your cycle and hormones behave, particularly like with PCOS.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
If you're somebody who has things like PCOS, it means
so generally women with pcos have high levels of androgens,
so they have higher levels of testosterone than women who
do not, and this can interfere with the obvia and so
if you're not ovulating again, ovulation is the primary way
that our body produces hormones, and so that generally can
(19:09):
lead to erratic hormonal patterns. And so, for example, some
women with PCOS, their body will start to stimulate egg
follicles like preparing, and I think that's part of how
the name PCOS right, it's the polycystic ovarian, So it's
like you're creating these little egg follicles that are starting
to simulate. Nothing ever, really in these contexts comes out
(19:30):
to fruition, and so you get estrogen. But then because
an egg never matures and is released, you don't get progesterone.
And having an imbalance of your hormones in this way
can lead people to feel kind of awful because even
though estrogen is a lot of fun and short little
bursts and it makes women feel sexy and alive and yes,
Lara Bryden, who's a naturopathic doctor, she described it best
(19:54):
where she said, it's like that eccentric friend of yours
who's like so much fun for like two days or
like a week, but then afterward you're just like, enough.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes, we don't want to keep the party going, we
need to take a nap.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
It's like that's enough.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
No, I don't want to watch the sun rise. No,
I don't want to lay in the grass. Can we please?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
That's because I asked TT to stay up late and
watch the sun rise so we couldn't see it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Oh there was a building glow.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
No. No, oh, my gosh, that's so funny.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
You touched on PMS a little bit, which you know
occurs in the two weeks before we start our period.
But not all PMS is created equal. I feel like,
as I age, it's agent Okay, my PMS is.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
An old, older, angry lady.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Now can you talk to us about pre menstrual syndrome
or PMS.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Yeah, so, PMS, it turns out, is really nothing more
than a catch all category that has been created for
experiences that women have in the luteal phase, some of
which are very normal. Right, So for example, being hungry,
you know, especially if you're not if you're being told, oh, well,
you need to eat two thousand calories of the day
without realizing that in the luteal phase, you might need
(21:05):
twenty two hundred calories a day. So some of it
is just things that we're experiencing because we've been given
bad advice or as you said, Zakia loved the idea
being graded on the wrong rubric. Some of it is
those experiences. Others are things that are happening on purpose,
but we haven't been given a language for so for example,
having the downshift in libido, or having a downshift in energy,
(21:29):
or having increased threat detection ability, so having what can
turn into anxiety. So some of that stuff is stuff
that's happening on purpose. Some of it is stuff that
is going sideways because we're great at using the wrong
rubric for our bodies and so we're creating disorder. And
then some of it is actual problems that we're having
because we're really sensitive to the hormonal changes.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
So PMS sort of run of the mill.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
PMS covers about everything, and in fact, there was a
research review that was done talking about the symptoms of
PMS and they noted that there's been more than eighty
five different symptoms.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Okay, if you're breathing, you have pmists.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Yeah, well exactly, it's like it's like, I mean, the
idea that these experiences that we have and the reason
the second half of the cycle is the one that
women get the hardest hit on in terms of these
hormonal sensitivities is because the changes that happen in the
second half of the cycle are just ginormous relative to
what's going on in the first half. Progesterone actually rises
(22:29):
and falls at levels that are ten times higher than
that of estrogen, and so that takes a lot of
dexterity on the part of the cells in our body
to be able to quickly adapt, because the body is
sensitive to sex hormones and as they change, they have
to change what they're doing to adjust to Okay, is
there a lot of hormone here or is there not
a lot of hormone here? And so you'll have receptors
(22:50):
of your cells up regulate and down regulate depending on
how much there is. And unfortunately, we live in an
environment where people don't have a lot of resilience to
hormonal changes just because things like inflammation and stress and
the inflammation that it tends to create also erode at
our cellular plasticity, and this is stuff that can make
(23:12):
our experiences across the cycle worse, right, And so we
do tend to see that people who are in better
health in general, so who do things like have a
community of people that they can help rely on for
stress management, who eat whole foods, get enough sunlight, get
enough sleep, get regular exercise, they tend to have smoother
experiences across the cycle than people who don't and who
(23:35):
have more chronic inflammatory types of conditions, we tend to
see worse PMS.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay, so PMS is everything that happens when you have
your period, got it, And this is function of our
bodies reacting to the rising and following estrogen and progesterone.
But what about pre mistral dyspork disorder or PMDD, because
I've heard about that one too.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
PMDD it's kind of like you take all of that
and then you imagine the worst, ugliest form of it.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
So PMDD is just it's a really heartbreaking condition. And
it's heartbreaking because for many of these women, they go
into the second half of the cycle and as progesterone
levels are increasing, it's like they just start to feel
just utterly hopeless. And so there's a tendency to have
these extreme mood changes, and one of the defining characteristics
(24:41):
of women who have pmdd is that many of them
wish that they could just end their own life to
make the suffering stop because they feel so awful. For
many of these women, this goes on for the entire
last two weeks of the cycle, and then they get
their period and they feel better. But then as soon
as you know they're feeling good again, they know what's coming,
you know, they know what's going to happen again. In
(25:02):
terms of the treatment options, and I'm sure that this
is going to absolutely shock you, but there isn't a
lot of research, and I know it's just shocking into
like what the causes of PMDDR and like what different
types of treatments are currently. The ones that doctors use
most frequently are the birth control pill, because this of
(25:23):
course prevents you from ovulating, and if you don't ovulate
and don't have a cycle, then you're going to have
these flatlined hormones. And if you're somebody who's really sensitive
to hormonal changes, like women with pmdd R, then this
can be helpful to them. Antidepressants are another one that
are frequently given what we know less about is like
what the root cause is of this deep sensitivity that
(25:46):
would allow women to be able to find relief using
something that to them would feel more natural. And there
are some studies that have been done looking at cognitive
behavioral therapy and it's actually found to be fairly affective
in terms of helping minimize women's symptoms.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
But that's just the emotional part of it, right, there's
real physical pain. So we just interviewed a neuroscientist who
studies pain, and a lot of what she said really
overlaps nicely in ties with what you're telling us. And
she talked about like the expectation of pain, so if
you've had pain before, you know it might be coming again.
(26:23):
So I can almost imagine PMDD as a part of
like chronic pain, Like if you're having these really awful
symptoms like clockwork, this is going to happen, and there
aren't many like treatment options. I'm curious though, One thing
that you said is there is this sensitivity to hormonal changes.
And I understand evolutionarily that we are primed for reproduction.
(26:46):
All species basically are, yes, but we've had some changes,
and I'm curious about some of the environmental factors are
some of these new things that are pushing us or
playing on some of that sensitivity or making us more sensitive,
And how we can kind of build some resilience to it.
Is it possible?
Speaker 5 (27:02):
One hundred percent, It is possible.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
I think that just doing things that help increase your
resilience to these changes, even if you have PMDD, it
might not totally solve the problem, but it will definitely
help take the edge off. And as you noted, there
are a lot of these environmental mismatches that are responsible
for the erosion in our cellular plasticity. And for example,
eating processed foods is something that unfortunately is very much
(27:27):
a mainstay culturally, and this increases inflammatory activity in the body,
and it also erodes at the diversity of our gut bacteria.
And all of these things help maintain our flexibility and
our cellular plasticity and our resilience to hormonal changes. Even
just like cleaning up your diet a little bit is helpful.
Other changes you can make. One of my favorites, because
(27:49):
it's so easy to do, is getting morning sunlight to
help set your circadian rhythms. And so for me, because
I'm somebody who's had bad sleep, and sleep plays a
profound role in your ability to sort of manage inflammatory
activity because getting not enough sleep is incredibly inflammatory in
the body, and people don't really appreciate the role that
(28:10):
it plays. Also understanding that stress management is like so huge.
It's like that there's so many industries that would disappear
if women actually prioritize themselves instead of other people.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
T T. You heard it.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
A couple of weeks ago, we say we were going
to start doing our fifteen minute walks. I'm just saying,
your cycle will thank me.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
I think that we need.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Yes, you should have a morning cycle support ten minute
walk club. I think that's awesome, and I mean honestly,
and even though it's like ten that helps. I think
that sometimes people are like, oh my gosh, like it
feels overwhelming, you know what I mean, where they're like, oh,
I've run a marathon and like lift weights ten times
a week and mainline protein and it's really not that,
(28:57):
you know, you don't need These little steps really make
a difference.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Atomic habits.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Atomic habits exactly, habit stacking. I'm a huge fan.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So really what I'm hearing is is all the roads
lead back to education. Are you feeling hopeful that in
school systems they'll be learning more about how bodies function,
regardless of sex or gender.
Speaker 5 (29:22):
I sure hope.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
So imagine how much better the world would be, I mean,
and for men too, right if we actually understood here's
the foods that nourish your body, here's ways to help
promote resilience to stress, here is how your hormones work.
And so, I mean, it's just, you know, I really
think that we need to revisit curricula in schools, and
(29:44):
I think one of those things would be understanding our bodies,
because it is completely absurd that I had to get
a PhD to learn about my body. And I mean,
it's also sort that so many women are having to
do this on social media. It's like we're trusting social
media to educate. We give the sexual education to our teenagers,
and it's cuckoos.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Like this person just did a dance, but they're gonna
tell me that's so funny.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
I had to get a TikTok account because of course,
you know, you have to be on social when you're
a public figure. And my son was like, you, what
are you going to do? Do a dance about birth control?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Maybe are you going to dance with me? Asked the camera.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
Yeah, that's a better question I should have had.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
That's that's the next question, be like, yeah, we need
to create a birth control dance and I would.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Love for you to choreograph.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
What is one thing other than getting your book that
you think every person that has a period should know
about their body?
Speaker 4 (30:41):
It would be learn who you are? Right, so, learn
how your hormones affect who you are. Share it with
a friend, Educate your partner. I think that there's so
much especially in relationships, like it's romantic relationships, where there's
so much ground for miscommunication just because and especially when
(31:05):
talking about a heterosexual couple where you have a man
and a woman and women has cycles and the man
does out of cycles, and there's just each one assumes
that the other one has a brain that works like
their brain does, and being able to communicate about and
actually have a language, because I think a lot of
times women know there's something happening, they don't have a
language to describe it, and so having a language to
(31:25):
describe it, which is one of the big reasons that
I wrote this book was I wanted women to understand
how they work, and then also to have a language
to describe it so that way they can have better
communication with their partners. When I think that understanding your
own body and being able to communicate that information to
a partner is I think that it's like there's no
greater form of intimacy.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I love this episode and this book is so good.
I learned so much every chapter. I was like, I
was texting people like.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Did you know? Did you know?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
And talking to Jimmy like, hey, did you know that
this is this? Of course he don't know. Ment Okay,
some of y'all don't know really anything. But I feel
like this should be required reading for everyone, no matter
your gender.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
You know. I think that's really true.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
And I think if you want to write any kind
of book, any kind of thing with characters where it's
like oh this, If you want to write anything about
a period about anybody, read this verse. Okay, read this
verse before you make your character sit on the couch
eating ice cream and say she's so lonely and depressed
but it's her period. I'm tired of that truck ty.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
We are out here existing and living and doing the
things that we got to do, even on our periods,
and yes, things are fluctuating, but things are fluctuating for everybody,
no matter what your sex is, and for the male
sex it seems like it's fluctuating.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
A lot more.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
And so we really need to be talking about y'all
the way that y'all talk about us.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
OO want to run yeall into the ground book Man.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Tt is on X and Instagram at d R Underscore T.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
S h O, and you can find Zakiya at Z
said So.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media. Our supervising
producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is Issara Acevez.
Dope Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed by James Farber.
Lamanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger.
Executive producer from iHeart podcast is Katrina Norvil.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Marketing lead is Alison Canter.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Original music composed and produced by Takayasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura,
with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs is executive
produced by us T T Show Dia and Zakiyah Wattie.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Six two
I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Okay, t T.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Think back, how many times have you heard somebody say, Oh,
she's probably just on her period?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Like that explains everything.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Too many times? And I hate it. I really hate it, because, yeah, periods.
People use periods as an excuse for every mood, every craving,
and every decision. And folks say things like, oh, a
woman shouldn't be president because she has the nuclear codes
and she was star war and all.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
These things like that. It's very annoying to me. Hey
not on my watch.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
What's wild about all of that is that a lot
of people never really learned the full picture.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I think probably middle school is when we get the basics.
You know, bleeding cramps, paths, and champs. That's it, that's it, period.
But what we don't learn is how cycles affect your
energy and your focus and even sometimes the way your
brain works.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I mean, so, whether you have a cycle, or you
know someone that does, or just want to understand the
science behind it all, this episode is for you.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So let's jump into the recitation. What do we know?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, I know that most people with the uterus have periods,
and I don't care what you say, periods.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yes, amen, amen, amen.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
And we know that there's a cycle that is about
a month and that our hormone levels fluctuate. We also
know that a lot of people don't know what's going
on at the chemical level or molecular lesson.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
This is with I am people. I have no clue. Okay, well,
then what do we want to know?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I want to know a lot of things. I want
to know one why it's so hard for folks to
talk about periods. You would think that with so many
people who have periods every single month, that this would
be something that we would all feel comfortable with.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, but we still had in tampons. That's the problem.
And I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
You know, it's like one end of the extreme or
the other we don't talk about periods at all, or
people like free bleeding, let it be all over your pants.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
No, I think there's something. Okay, there is a middle ground.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Okay, Yeah, I want to see more there, more clustering there.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I want to know the hormones that are at play
the key. I know you know bodily things are your wheelhouse,
but we've talked about it, so I won't say I
don't understand at all, because you have trained me up, friend,
But I just want to understand more about the fluctuations
and like how all of this works.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And I think even just knowing generally what the hormones
are doesn't answer the question about how they are regulated
and how that's linked to like PMS and other menstrual conditions.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
So I I want to know.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
See all of those puzzle pieces together, yes, and I
want to know if there's anything that we can do
to have these periods go go easy on us, go.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Is sinking? Where's the deal? So we don't have any
more of that, let's jump into the recitation.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
We brought in doctor Sarah Hill. She's a researcher who
spent years studying the science of periods and hormones, and
she's here to give us the real story.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
I'm doctor Sarah Hill, and I'm a research psychologist and
author of This is Your Brain on birth control and
my new book, The Period Brain.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I loved the way the books started, and so that's
where I want our conversation is start with addressing the
elephant in the room and asking you, why does talking
about our periods make us so uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
I think that for a really long time, women were
made to feel like lesser, like sort of inferior versions
of men because we have hormone cycle. And so I
think it makes everybody get a little bit queasy if
we start talking too much about the way that women's
hormones can affect the way that they experience the world,
just because it feels like something that could be used
(04:12):
against us.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
And you know, and there's and I understand that fear.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
I mean, it's like, this is a history of women, right,
It's like anytime we talk about anything that makes us
different from men, that can be turned on its head.
But the truth of the matter is that there's no
truth to that being a sign of weakness or problematic.
So even though all of us have been led to
believe that the fact that women have two primary sex hormones,
(04:36):
estrogen and progesterone instead of one like testosterone, that there's
something wrong with that, right, and that that means that
you're flaky and you can't be depended on because you know,
you're just whimsical and capricious. That's just simply not true.
It's like our hormones cycle, and so they're cyclical, but
they're not unpredictable. And one thing that I always tell
people is like, if you tell me a woman's age,
(04:59):
and you tell me I made the first day of
her last menstrual cycle, I can tell you with an
alarming degree of certainty what's happening with her sex hormones, right,
And the same isn't true for men because men's hormone,
their primary sex hormone, testosterone, is actually a little bit capricious,
and it responds to anything like if a man sees
a beautiful woman, his testosterone goes up. If he loses
(05:20):
an argument with a friend, or he loses a competition,
his testosterone goes down. If his favorite sports team wins.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
It goes up.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
If his favorite sports team loses, it goes down. And
there's even been research showing that men's testosterone changes if
they see a gun, right, So if men see a gun,
their tesosterone goes up. I mean, so it's like, whose
hormone is flighty and capricious?
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Now?
Speaker 4 (05:41):
And so I think that there's a tendency to get
a little uncomfortable about these things. But I think that
we need to stop stigmatizing these conversations because so many
women aren't ever taught anything about what they're you know,
they're like, oh, okay, you can get a period, and
you know, here's some you know, menstrual products, and then
it's just like right, you know, that's the end of
the conversation. But there's no larger conversation about, Okay, like
(06:03):
why is it that we have these cycles? What do
the changes in hormones do in terms of changing the
way that we think and feel, experience the world our
sexual desire or appetites or calorie needs, Like we're not
taught at any of that. Like I had to get
a PhD To learn that stuff, you know, and it
was just crazy. You know, you shouldn't have to go
to grad school to learn your body.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Doctor Hill, I want to pause and just stop for
a moment to talk about that complexity right now. What
you just said is recyclical, and that's been used against
us in mainstream media and in conversation around women, because
when I was thinking about it as you were talking,
everything we rely on is cyclical, the day and night
(06:45):
cyclical cyclical, all the calendar cyclical.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Okay, also cyclical.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Okay, Yeah, that's not reacting, like right, So I'm just saying,
let's all pay attention and reading is fundamental when we
think about the complexity in how the sexes are different.
I think in science and research, sometimes that's been flatten
and like people don't look at those differences. I want
you to talk a little bit about how different industries,
(07:12):
particularly the medical industry, feed into that or why they
may even want it to be that way.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Yeah, there is this tendency and people kind of talk
about it with medicine. You know, you hear about this
term like bikini medicine, which is just this idea that
doctors assume that men and women are essentially interchangeable except
for the parts of the body that can be covered
by a bikini. Right, And so it's this idea that
women's hearts and men's hearts are the same, women's lungs
and men's lungs are the same, women's brains and men's
(07:38):
brains are the same, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But there's a growing body of research in all of
these different fields of science that support the idea that
this is not true, right, and that there's sex differentiation
in everything is you know, even these little tiny details
of our body, like the way that our bodies like
to deal with bacteria.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Women's immune systems tend to deal with bacterial threats using
ones of mechanisms. Men's bodies tend to deal with bacterial
threats using a different set of mechanisms, right. And the
reason that this is the case is just that women's
bodies are wired for pregnancy and reproduction. And this is
true whether we want to have babies or not. It's
like our bodies were built for that. And what that
means is that our body had to come up with
(08:18):
a whole bunch of workarounds from everything from our circulatory
system tor metabolism to our immune system to be able
to support another human being living inside of our body,
you know, alien type form, you know, where it's like
we had to our body had to figure out what
to do with all that, and that's created for all
of these different systems workarounds that they've had to do.
(08:38):
And part of the sort of legacy of all of
that is that you get sex differentiation in all of
these different types of systems. And unfortunately this is inconvenient
for science, right because scientists would like to just be
able to collect data on a handful of people, right,
Men a little bit, some men's and women no different
and not have to worry about testing for sex different right,
(09:00):
because that means that they have to if they're going
to test for sex differences, they have to collect twice
as much data. And then with women, because they have
cycling hormones, they've got to deal with that. I think
it was like nineteen ninety three when the National Institutes
of Health required science researchers to include women in biomedical research.
And the way that researchers handled that wasn't by this
(09:22):
is wonderful opportunity to learn about women. Like let's collect
data on equal numbers of men and women and look
for sex differentiation. And since women have these cycling hormones,
let's measure them at different cycle phases to see whether
they respond to treatment differently depending on what's going on
with their hormones. No, Instead, what scientists said, like, oh, shoot, okay,
(09:44):
we have to include women in research, and they've got
these pesky hormones that cycle. So here's an idea. Let's
just include some women in our research, right, not enough
to actually test for sex differences. And for studying humans,
let's only study them when hormones are really low, so
in the early phases of the menstrual cycle. So that
(10:04):
way we don't have to worry about their hormones interfering
with the results.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Which is so crazy, because it's crazy, it's.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Crazy, I know, it's so a few days.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
So they study women in this period of five days,
you know, and in non human animals. At anytime there's
a like a medical intervention that's new, like a new
drug or a new therapy or new treatment, it always
has to go through this pre clinical process first, where
it's tested usually on mice and rats. And the way
that they do this pre clinical work to include females,
(10:35):
what they do to manage their hormonal variation is that
they just pull their ovaries out, and so they're testing
on females with no sex hormones. And so they're like,
look at us, we're including females and research without recognizing
the fact that women are inherently hormonal, right, It's like
we are, like our hormones are part of who we are,
(10:57):
and as a hormone cycle that changes the way that
every thing acts in the body, and then then just
ignoring it, removing that is the source of things.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
So it allows us to include women as research subjects
in science, but it doesn't teach us anything about women
because we're studying them in this.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
Little tiny corner of their.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Cycle when hormones are low, and we know very little
about them when they're in states when hormones are high.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Let's talk about hormones because that is that is the
piaced resistance, and this whole thing is our hormones. Can
you explain the period cycle from start to finish because
I feel like I just learned what the lutele phase
was like six months ago on TikTok, right, and somebody
told me about it, and I was like, do we
(11:57):
all have that?
Speaker 5 (11:58):
Yeah? That's so funny, Like is it a just.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I was like, I've never heard of this, So can
you tell us what's happening hormonally through those different stages
and talk about estrogen versus progestion.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Absolutely, absolutely the menstrual cycle, Like the day you get
your period is the first day of your cycle, and
when you get your period, hormone levels are at their
lowest in the cycle. So even though women are oftentimes
given a hard time about being.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Hormonal, you know when they're on their period.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
This is actually when we release hormonal and when the
brain notices that hormone levels are low, it will stimulate
the ovaries through the pituitary land. So it'll tell the
pituitary gland, stimulate the ovaries and let's start some egg development,
because it knows that if hormone levels are low, it
means that they're not pregnant and it's time to start
maturing egg follicles, so that way they can prepare for ovulation.
(12:47):
And the ovaries then will start maturing egg follicles. And
as these follicles begin to develop, they actually start releasing estrogen,
and so this is one of the primary ways that
the female body produces estrogen or estrodile from egg development.
So after a few days of these egg follicles starting
to mature, one will take over. It becomes it's known
(13:07):
as the dominant follicle, which ever one is like growing
the fastest and most robust. It's sort of the chosen one,
and then it continues to grow. The others dissolve back
into the body. And this is going to be the
egg that's going to be released at ovulation. Right now,
this egg is maturing and maturing and maturing. Estrogen levels
are rising and rising and rising, and then you're getting
(13:28):
to the period of ovulation. And ovulation is of course
when an egg is released, and during this time estrogen
levels are super high. So estrogen levels peak and you ovulate,
and the period about five days prior to ovulation and
then within twenty four hours of ovulation itself, this is
(13:48):
the period in the cycle that's known as the fertile window,
and this is when sex can lead to conception. And
so this is a time when women's bodies are very
much oriented towards all things attraction and sex. Right, so,
estrogen we can think about these first fourteen days of
the cycle as being all about getting all of the
(14:09):
pieces in place for sex to lead to conception. I mean,
it's all oriented toward attraction and sex. And so women
tend to feel sexier in this estrogenic phase of the cycle.
They tend to have more sex, they sound sexier, they
smell sexier, they move sexier. They're better able to discriminate
between high and low quality mates because their sensory neurons
(14:30):
are super sensitive to these fine tune differences between men.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Okay, so the first day of your period is day one,
and your hormones are at their lowest. Then your body
starts prepping for possible pregnancy, whether you want it or not,
and things start to get a little sexy. That's the
first fourteen days. What about the rest of the month.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Now, that empty egg follicle actually becomes a temporary endocrine
structure that lasts about two weeks, and it releases women's
second primary sex hormone, which is progesterone. This is that
luteal phase, right, that so few people know about. And
this is the last two weeks of your cycle before
your next period begins, And this is your body is
(15:11):
actually shifting during this time from a state where you
were optimized for sex and attraction, and it's shifting you
into a state that is optimized for implantation of an
embryo and pregnancy.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
And so these are two totally different sets of activities.
The things that your body needs to do to attract
a mate are very different than the things that your
body needs to do to maintain a pregnancy. And that's
why we have two primary sex hormones instead of one
is that our bodies have to do two things to reproduce,
and the result of these hormonal changes there again, they're
sort of orienting you toward this goal that has to
(15:45):
do with the reproductive process. And so it's generally instead
of being a time when women experience increase sexual desire
and they're feeling really sexy, instead women feel not sexy.
Their libido tends to decrease, and any sex they have
is less about and that they desire tends to be
less about a need to like scratch a sexual itch,
(16:06):
and tends to be more about like the need to connect.
So the meaning of sex changes because this is a
period in the cycle when sex cannot lead to conception.
I mean, you can't get pregnant from sex you have
during the last two weeks of the cycle, and so
it serves a totally different function during that time than
it does during the first. And it's also a time
when our because our body is remodeling itself and getting
(16:28):
ready for the possibility of pregnancy, our metabolism increases, our
calorie needs increase during the second two weeks of the cycle,
and of course we aren't ever told about that, and
so women feel really hungry. No, no, So we feel
hungry and then we're like, why am I so hungry?
And then we develop this bad relationship with ourselves where
we think that we have no self control because you know,
(16:49):
look at me, and you know eating all my sons
Halloween candy and just a hypothetical example gives me, James,
it's me, it was me. And as we have these
changes where our calorie needs increase, our respiration rate increases,
(17:10):
our heart rate increases, we become more sensitive to threat detection.
So any sign that there might be something wrong with
the relationship that we have, either with our extended village
or with our partners become more noticeable and salient to us,
because again, we're all about trying to protect ourselves and
protect the possibility of an embryo, and so we're vulnerable
(17:31):
to threats, and our the threat detection areas of our
brain become more interconnected with other areas of our brain
and make it more aware of threats. We tend to
be more inward facing. We don't want as much stimulation
because our body is doing a lot of work and
it's metabolically expensive. We're sleepier, and so there's this whole shift.
You know, this whole shift is our bodies preparing for
(17:53):
the possibility of implantation and pregnancy. And the reason that
so many women feel so terrible during the last two
weeks of the cycle is because a we're never told
about any of this, right, so we have no idea
what's going on, and it's like, I just feel really sensitive,
and then we blow up at our partner, right because
we're feeling like everything is a problem because it seems
(18:13):
like a threat because we're not told, like, hey, your
brain is literally more interconnected with the threat areas, and
just so you know, you'd be alarm bells might be
sounding more easily than they do in different parts of
the cycle, and having awareness of that is like so
helpful in terms of communicating within a relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
We've been grading ourselves against the wrong rubric.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
You said it perfectly, and.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
So then we're constantly like, why am I failing? Why
am I failing? I'm curious if you could talk a
little bit more about when there are differences in how
your cycle and hormones behave, particularly like with PCOS.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
If you're somebody who has things like PCOS, it means
so generally women with pcos have high levels of androgens,
so they have higher levels of testosterone than women who
do not, and this can interfere with the obvia and so
if you're not ovulating again, ovulation is the primary way
that our body produces hormones, and so that generally can
(19:09):
lead to erratic hormonal patterns. And so, for example, some
women with PCOS, their body will start to stimulate egg
follicles like preparing, and I think that's part of how
the name PCOS right, it's the polycystic ovarian, So it's
like you're creating these little egg follicles that are starting
to simulate. Nothing ever, really in these contexts comes out
(19:30):
to fruition, and so you get estrogen. But then because
an egg never matures and is released, you don't get progesterone.
And having an imbalance of your hormones in this way
can lead people to feel kind of awful because even
though estrogen is a lot of fun and short little
bursts and it makes women feel sexy and alive and yes,
Lara Bryden, who's a naturopathic doctor, she described it best
(19:54):
where she said, it's like that eccentric friend of yours
who's like so much fun for like two days or
like a week, but then afterward you're just like, enough.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes, we don't want to keep the party going, we
need to take a nap.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
It's like that's enough.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
No, I don't want to watch the sun rise. No,
I don't want to lay in the grass. Can we please?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
That's because I asked TT to stay up late and
watch the sun rise so we couldn't see it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Oh there was a building glow.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
No. No, oh, my gosh, that's so funny.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
You touched on PMS a little bit, which you know
occurs in the two weeks before we start our period.
But not all PMS is created equal. I feel like,
as I age, it's agent Okay, my PMS is.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
An old, older, angry lady.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Now can you talk to us about pre menstrual syndrome
or PMS.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Yeah, so, PMS, it turns out, is really nothing more
than a catch all category that has been created for
experiences that women have in the luteal phase, some of
which are very normal. Right, So for example, being hungry,
you know, especially if you're not if you're being told, oh, well,
you need to eat two thousand calories of the day
without realizing that in the luteal phase, you might need
(21:05):
twenty two hundred calories a day. So some of it
is just things that we're experiencing because we've been given
bad advice or as you said, Zakia loved the idea
being graded on the wrong rubric. Some of it is
those experiences. Others are things that are happening on purpose,
but we haven't been given a language for so for example,
having the downshift in libido, or having a downshift in energy,
(21:29):
or having increased threat detection ability, so having what can
turn into anxiety. So some of that stuff is stuff
that's happening on purpose. Some of it is stuff that
is going sideways because we're great at using the wrong
rubric for our bodies and so we're creating disorder. And
then some of it is actual problems that we're having
because we're really sensitive to the hormonal changes.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
So PMS sort of run of the mill.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
PMS covers about everything, and in fact, there was a
research review that was done talking about the symptoms of
PMS and they noted that there's been more than eighty
five different symptoms.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Okay, if you're breathing, you have pmists.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Yeah, well exactly, it's like it's like, I mean, the
idea that these experiences that we have and the reason
the second half of the cycle is the one that
women get the hardest hit on in terms of these
hormonal sensitivities is because the changes that happen in the
second half of the cycle are just ginormous relative to
what's going on in the first half. Progesterone actually rises
(22:29):
and falls at levels that are ten times higher than
that of estrogen, and so that takes a lot of
dexterity on the part of the cells in our body
to be able to quickly adapt, because the body is
sensitive to sex hormones and as they change, they have
to change what they're doing to adjust to Okay, is
there a lot of hormone here or is there not
a lot of hormone here? And so you'll have receptors
(22:50):
of your cells up regulate and down regulate depending on
how much there is. And unfortunately, we live in an
environment where people don't have a lot of resilience to
hormonal changes just because things like inflammation and stress and
the inflammation that it tends to create also erode at
our cellular plasticity, and this is stuff that can make
(23:12):
our experiences across the cycle worse, right, And so we
do tend to see that people who are in better
health in general, so who do things like have a
community of people that they can help rely on for
stress management, who eat whole foods, get enough sunlight, get
enough sleep, get regular exercise, they tend to have smoother
experiences across the cycle than people who don't and who
(23:35):
have more chronic inflammatory types of conditions, we tend to
see worse PMS.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay, so PMS is everything that happens when you have
your period, got it, And this is function of our
bodies reacting to the rising and following estrogen and progesterone.
But what about pre mistral dyspork disorder or PMDD, because
I've heard about that one too.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
PMDD it's kind of like you take all of that
and then you imagine the worst, ugliest form of it.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
So PMDD is just it's a really heartbreaking condition. And
it's heartbreaking because for many of these women, they go
into the second half of the cycle and as progesterone
levels are increasing, it's like they just start to feel
just utterly hopeless. And so there's a tendency to have
these extreme mood changes, and one of the defining characteristics
(24:41):
of women who have pmdd is that many of them
wish that they could just end their own life to
make the suffering stop because they feel so awful. For
many of these women, this goes on for the entire
last two weeks of the cycle, and then they get
their period and they feel better. But then as soon
as you know they're feeling good again, they know what's coming,
you know, they know what's going to happen again. In
(25:02):
terms of the treatment options, and I'm sure that this
is going to absolutely shock you, but there isn't a
lot of research, and I know it's just shocking into
like what the causes of PMDDR and like what different
types of treatments are currently. The ones that doctors use
most frequently are the birth control pill, because this of
(25:23):
course prevents you from ovulating, and if you don't ovulate
and don't have a cycle, then you're going to have
these flatlined hormones. And if you're somebody who's really sensitive
to hormonal changes, like women with pmdd R, then this
can be helpful to them. Antidepressants are another one that
are frequently given what we know less about is like
what the root cause is of this deep sensitivity that
(25:46):
would allow women to be able to find relief using
something that to them would feel more natural. And there
are some studies that have been done looking at cognitive
behavioral therapy and it's actually found to be fairly affective
in terms of helping minimize women's symptoms.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
But that's just the emotional part of it, right, there's
real physical pain. So we just interviewed a neuroscientist who
studies pain, and a lot of what she said really
overlaps nicely in ties with what you're telling us. And
she talked about like the expectation of pain, so if
you've had pain before, you know it might be coming again.
(26:23):
So I can almost imagine PMDD as a part of
like chronic pain, Like if you're having these really awful
symptoms like clockwork, this is going to happen, and there
aren't many like treatment options. I'm curious though, One thing
that you said is there is this sensitivity to hormonal changes.
And I understand evolutionarily that we are primed for reproduction.
(26:46):
All species basically are, yes, but we've had some changes,
and I'm curious about some of the environmental factors are
some of these new things that are pushing us or
playing on some of that sensitivity or making us more sensitive,
And how we can kind of build some resilience to it.
Is it possible?
Speaker 5 (27:02):
One hundred percent, It is possible.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
I think that just doing things that help increase your
resilience to these changes, even if you have PMDD, it
might not totally solve the problem, but it will definitely
help take the edge off. And as you noted, there
are a lot of these environmental mismatches that are responsible
for the erosion in our cellular plasticity. And for example,
eating processed foods is something that unfortunately is very much
(27:27):
a mainstay culturally, and this increases inflammatory activity in the body,
and it also erodes at the diversity of our gut bacteria.
And all of these things help maintain our flexibility and
our cellular plasticity and our resilience to hormonal changes. Even
just like cleaning up your diet a little bit is helpful.
Other changes you can make. One of my favorites, because
(27:49):
it's so easy to do, is getting morning sunlight to
help set your circadian rhythms. And so for me, because
I'm somebody who's had bad sleep, and sleep plays a
profound role in your ability to sort of manage inflammatory
activity because getting not enough sleep is incredibly inflammatory in
the body, and people don't really appreciate the role that
(28:10):
it plays. Also understanding that stress management is like so huge.
It's like that there's so many industries that would disappear
if women actually prioritize themselves instead of other people.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
T T. You heard it.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
A couple of weeks ago, we say we were going
to start doing our fifteen minute walks. I'm just saying,
your cycle will thank me.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
I think that we need.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Yes, you should have a morning cycle support ten minute
walk club. I think that's awesome, and I mean honestly,
and even though it's like ten that helps. I think
that sometimes people are like, oh my gosh, like it
feels overwhelming, you know what I mean, where they're like, oh,
I've run a marathon and like lift weights ten times
a week and mainline protein and it's really not that,
(28:57):
you know, you don't need These little steps really make
a difference.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Atomic habits.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Atomic habits exactly, habit stacking. I'm a huge fan.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So really what I'm hearing is is all the roads
lead back to education. Are you feeling hopeful that in
school systems they'll be learning more about how bodies function,
regardless of sex or gender.
Speaker 5 (29:22):
I sure hope.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
So imagine how much better the world would be, I mean,
and for men too, right if we actually understood here's
the foods that nourish your body, here's ways to help
promote resilience to stress, here is how your hormones work.
And so, I mean, it's just, you know, I really
think that we need to revisit curricula in schools, and
(29:44):
I think one of those things would be understanding our bodies,
because it is completely absurd that I had to get
a PhD to learn about my body. And I mean,
it's also sort that so many women are having to
do this on social media. It's like we're trusting social
media to educate. We give the sexual education to our teenagers,
and it's cuckoos.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Like this person just did a dance, but they're gonna
tell me that's so funny.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
I had to get a TikTok account because of course,
you know, you have to be on social when you're
a public figure. And my son was like, you, what
are you going to do? Do a dance about birth control?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Maybe are you going to dance with me? Asked the camera.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
Yeah, that's a better question I should have had.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
That's that's the next question, be like, yeah, we need
to create a birth control dance and I would.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Love for you to choreograph.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
What is one thing other than getting your book that
you think every person that has a period should know
about their body?
Speaker 4 (30:41):
It would be learn who you are? Right, so, learn
how your hormones affect who you are. Share it with
a friend, Educate your partner. I think that there's so
much especially in relationships, like it's romantic relationships, where there's
so much ground for miscommunication just because and especially when
(31:05):
talking about a heterosexual couple where you have a man
and a woman and women has cycles and the man
does out of cycles, and there's just each one assumes
that the other one has a brain that works like
their brain does, and being able to communicate about and
actually have a language, because I think a lot of
times women know there's something happening, they don't have a
language to describe it, and so having a language to
(31:25):
describe it, which is one of the big reasons that
I wrote this book was I wanted women to understand
how they work, and then also to have a language
to describe it so that way they can have better
communication with their partners. When I think that understanding your
own body and being able to communicate that information to
a partner is I think that it's like there's no
greater form of intimacy.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I love this episode and this book is so good.
I learned so much every chapter. I was like, I
was texting people like.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Did you know? Did you know?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
And talking to Jimmy like, hey, did you know that
this is this? Of course he don't know. Ment Okay,
some of y'all don't know really anything. But I feel
like this should be required reading for everyone, no matter
your gender.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
You know. I think that's really true.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
And I think if you want to write any kind
of book, any kind of thing with characters where it's
like oh this, If you want to write anything about
a period about anybody, read this verse. Okay, read this
verse before you make your character sit on the couch
eating ice cream and say she's so lonely and depressed
but it's her period. I'm tired of that truck ty.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
We are out here existing and living and doing the
things that we got to do, even on our periods,
and yes, things are fluctuating, but things are fluctuating for everybody,
no matter what your sex is, and for the male
sex it seems like it's fluctuating.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
A lot more.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
And so we really need to be talking about y'all
the way that y'all talk about us.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
OO want to run yeall into the ground book Man.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Tt is on X and Instagram at d R Underscore T.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
S h O, and you can find Zakiya at Z
said So.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media. Our supervising
producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is Issara Acevez.
Dope Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed by James Farber.
Lamanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger.
Executive producer from iHeart podcast is Katrina Norvil.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Marketing lead is Alison Canter.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Original music composed and produced by Takayasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura,
with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs is executive
produced by us T T Show Dia and Zakiyah Wattie.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Six two
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