All Episodes

November 28, 2022 68 mins

As their characters struggle with the situations they’re dealing with on the show... Hilarie, Sophia, and Joy relive what life was like behind the scenes during this time. 

It was definitely a tale of two dramas as things were surreal with the highest of highs while simultaneously marred by the lowest of lows. And it’s all explained right here… 

Plus, a special guest performed at Tric on this episode… find out who and why this was one of Sophia’s most memorable days on set!

See for privacy information.

Mark as Played

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
First of all, you don't know me. Were all about
that high school drama, Girl Drama Girl, all about them
high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in
our comic girl Cheering for the drama Queens Girl Fashion,
but you'll tough, girl. You could sit with us Girl Drama, Queens, DNA,
Queen's Drawn, mc Queen's Drama, John mc Queen's Drama, Queen's

Welcome Back, Everybody it is Season four, Episode four, can't
stop this thing you started? I wish we could. That
train is a rolling baby. There's a lot that I
wanted to push stop on in this episode. I didn't
like it. It was a good episode. The subject acidic front.

It's so uncomfortable that while we were watching it we
were like, wow, they really did a good job because
we're all super creeped out. But yeah, maybe didn't really
make me feel sick. Bethany Rooney was our director in
this and it was her first time. I believe in
my right that she one last year too. Has she
done one before? Well? I loved her. She was one

of my favorite directors and um, you know, she would
always come in. She had a very calm energy and
really knew what she wanted, but was also really open
to our ideas, So that was nice. Um. But she
she came in with ideas. It wasn't just somebody coming
in expecting the machine to run itself and she's just
there to, you know, call call out the shots every

once in a while. She really had ideas and I
think it showed up a lot because there was a
lot of stuff that she just had to juggle in
this crazy episode. She had really creative shots. That basketball
shot at the very top of the episode where Lucas
is like looking through the basketball hoop and the way
it was revealed, Yeah, it was super cool. Well, what

this episode that Bethany Rooney directed beautifully is about is
deb continues her downward spiral to her addiction. Rachel continues
to chase after Nathan. He is still searching for answers
about what he saw in the water. Whitey and Karen
make a proposition to Lucas about returning to basketball. The
rumor about Brooks pregnancy is just spreading like wildfire around

the school, and Derek starts getting closer to Peyton, but
Lucas begins to suspect that his intentions are not good
and the coolest thing that, like I don't know ever happened,
was Lupe Fiasco performed at Trick. Amazing, so exciting, there's
a lot. Loupe being there is one of my core

memories of our show, Like truly one of the best
days I've ever had at work. It was so fun
and so cool. We were all so excited and it
was a long day at Trick and we were all
it was one of those ones that we all showed
up even when we weren't there. We weren't do on
set yet. We were just wanted to hang out. We
wanted to be there when lou Loupe was performing and

then hang out in the green room backstage so we
could set chat. We were so fang early about it,
we really were. And I don't know why I remember this.
I remember because I had gotten to work a couple
of hours earlier than I was needed and they were
loading in his set. You know, they put up that
chain length fence with all the loop A skateboards on it,
you know, the it was just the board part though,

without the wheels, and I remember helping like unwrap those
skateboards out of the bubble wrap, out of the boxes
and being like helpful, this really cool? What can I do?
Put me to work? Like he wasn't there. It was
like me and the set dep guys. But I was like,
this is so cool. I can't believe it's really coming.
And I don't know why. It's like it's burned into

my brain. I just have such imposter syndrome. Like even
on TRL at MTV, my assumption was always like no
one knows who we are. No one knows, like like
you're going to forget my name five minutes after you leave.
And I just had this kind of like feeling when
he showed up, like does he even know what our
show is? Like our show? What do you do? Hopping about?

You here? Why are you here? You know? Like I
just yeah, my imposter syndrome was so big. I was
just like who did your manager trick you? Like, yeah,
I'm not cool. It was a lot of that, like
how did we get you here? Like extreme confusion. Well,

you made a great point while we were watching Hillary
you were You mentioned a writer that we had come
in once who was telling us um because she was
back in the writers room in l A and that
they were really trying to get a lot more male
viewers on the show, and um, so I think maybe
that was part of it too, because Lupe was definitely
like the coolest I mean, well, I guess Jack's mannequin

was pretty cool, but still kind of indie. Like Lupe
was pretty mainstream and like cool and appealed to both
sexes more than like a Michelle branch or maybe even
Tyler at that point. Well, we had a lot of
singer songwriter energy, yeah, and so to ranch out um
into more you know, like I don't know, you're right,

like mainstream, go to a club, have fun kind of
like fun music. Maybe that's the word I'm looking for
because it fits with all the other things we were
talking about in the episode, like all the stuff with
Rachel being naked basically, and all the stuff with Nathan
on the motorcycle and the way they were you know,
even the psychoderic stuff. The way that was cut it
was definitely had had a bent toward what male audiences

at the time we're showing up for. They were fixated
on the mail thing, and we can talk about it
more like as the psychoderic thing evolves. But I was
specifically pulled aside and told that our male numbers in
viewership skyrocketed when Peyton got her as kicked by Derek,

and so what you'll see, there's a pattern on our
show where either violence towards women or super sexualized situations.
There's gonna be an uptick in that because they were
really hot to capture the male audience and they saw
those numbers, like they had data that showed them this
is what the boys like. Um. And that was really

frightening to me. But I had to be a good
like sport about it and be like, oh, I'm so
glad I could bring more eyeballs to our show. That
feels great. Um, But yeah, they were. They were trying
to get the dudes for sure. They couldn't do it
with basketball, so we'll punch a girl in the face.
It's upsetting, though, to to think about what kind of

male audience we were cultivating with that note on certainly
not and there's plenty of shows men watch that don't
revolve around assaulting women. And I think it feels extra
intense given that, you know, we had those conversations in
season three with the school shooting episode about what we've

learned in the last twenty years, what we've learned about
these groups that groom men and boys towards violence online,
and that those are the people that are pushing um
the rhetoric and the misinformation that literally we find repeated
again and again and again, and these manifestoes of these

men who who commit violent acts like that. And to
think that we had a team of people in charge
of us that chose to seek out and try to
entertain violent men, like that's a that's a really hard

pill to swallow, even all these years later. It's really
no joy. I mean, how fucking meta is it? How
meta is it that they are clearly vilifying Derek the
creep on the internet, right while also soliciting the creeps
on the internet. Yeah. Absolutely, I just think it was

incredibly careless. I don't know that it was sinister and
that there are people sitting in their offices like you know,
how we can really you know, because the psychos out there, right.
I think it was just a carelessness of like, oh, yeah,
it's action, it'll be cool and like and then it's
it's just it's it's just careless. It's a total lack
of awareness of what it's actually doing, right, But it's

it's the kind of lack of awareness you see in,
for example, people who can't get pregnant, men trying to
regulate women's literal reproductive systems, like it's the same sort
of thing where they go, this is going to be
really cool, and they don't follow what their actions actually

cause or mean. So I know they weren't trying to
solicit like basement bullies on the internet, but they saw
that a lot of young men were drawn to a
violent assault of women, and they went, we should do
more of that. Not hold the phone. How are we

gonna Okay, wait, if if we suddenly have a lot
of these young men tuning in, how are we going
to talk about how awful that was? Instead, they were like,
maybe we should do more. Maybe we should make the
girls do maxim and tell them they'll get fired if
they don't like that. Is that what happened? Oh yeah, okay,

talk about the maxim? Shoot. Oh man, oh man, guess
who wore pants and maxim? This guy? Because I have
kept this pair of white jeans for so long because
I showed up that day and was such a righteous
bitch and like such like a brat, like such a baby. Uh,
And I was like, I'm wearing pants not just I

don't I'm uncomfortable plumbing in the pants. And also I've
saved those white jeans as like a testament to I'm
gonna wear pants and Maxim, I mean our hardest. We
got like cute vintage one pieces and high waisted bikinis
and I was like, yeah, I'll wear this like corset
top that totally covers my tummy and then these shorts
and it'll look like a fifties pin up shoot. And

then the photo shop they did of that outfit, half
my ass is gone, like literally one of my legs
just is half of its size. And they did the
thing that they loved to do to us then, where
they tried to make our boobs bigger. I've never had
boobs in the corset and shorts shot of me. They
only like, it's like someone started making one of my

boobs bigger and then went to lunch and forgot they
weren't done. So like one normal size boob and one
huge boob and half but on one side, like you guys,
it's the worst. It's the worst, babe, that's called the
Maxim Special one big bob. Really, it was insane. Just

once we really did try to make it the best
version of it we could. But yeah, we got told
we had to do it. And I because Brooke had
been so sexualized on the show, and the whole idea
of this like hometown hottie was Rachel's storyline. I was like, Look,

if if the girls want to do it, that's great.
I don't like I have gone to battle trying to
make Brook less of this thing that you guys tried
to force me into. I don't want to do it.
And I literally got told, if you do not go
and shoot this cover with your co stars, we will

guarantee you that you will never be let out for
a press day, a movie, an event, any of your charities.
We will keep you here forever. Where was your manager
the leverage they had because I didn't. I remember getting
pulled into the production office, your Lawyal and I sat

on a floor while our boss was on the couch
as we were given this like very friendly soft pitch
that was Look, all the other shows have been on
the cover of every single magazine, and no one wants you, Guys,
no one wants you, and you finally have someone that
wants you, and you're really going to turn your nose

up at that UM and you know, we were on
the bubble every year, and we were assured that Maxim
had just been purchased by a new parent company and
they had UM British ownership now, so they're classing up
the joint and that it was run predominantly by women,

and we were like, but what do you mean. They're like,
you guys are going to be the start of the
rebranding of Maxim. It's going to be so classy, like
it was this whole thing because we said no to
that for years, for years, but it was very much

a no one else wants you, studio wants to cancel
your show. If you don't start to generate some buzz
and attract these male numbers, then we're dead and all
your friends are going to lose their jobs and it'll
be your faults. I think. You know what's interesting for
me is it's about agency. Like at that time, I said, no,

I don't want to do this, and I was told
I had to, and I hear you on the like,
where was your manager? But what's a manager going to do? Well?
They said, you're working every day in this episode. Yeah
you're supposed to have You're not technically on camera on Friday,
but that's the only time they can do your wardrobe fitting,
Like they can keep you on the ground if they
want to. And it just seems like something that would

have happened enough in this industry that lawyers would know
how to handle that. It was pre texting, really joy Like,
how often were we really in contact with our managers
back then? It was It was such a profound threat
and a threat to like being able, honestly, even to

have the ability to escape for a weekend a place
that at this stage, like this season, I was leaving
every chance I got. I would come into work and
do my job, and then I wanted out. I wanted
to go home. I wanted to be with my family,
I wanted to be with my friends. I did not
want to be on our set. It was not a
safe place for me, and this was such a threat

to safety. And I remember, and it's weird because I
remember having these conflicting feelings when we did that cover,
like looking at you Hill and looking at Danil and
being like, God, everybody, everybody looks so beautiful, and like
I farted in all those pictures. I'm making the most
uncomfortable phase look uncomfortable. But in the room I remember

being like this, like I'm looking at my friends who
look stunning and who do look like these fifties pin
up girls, and this should be so fun, but it's
miserable because we didn't choose it. And it's interesting because
many years later when that when there was actual like

when we did Maxim on our show, it was still
like college humor, like really gross. All the articles geared
towards like just grossness, like frat house humor. And many
years later, on a different job, the magazine had actually
changed hands and had been bought by one of the
big women's magazine umbrellas. I guess maybe again, And I

got to art direct to shoot with Maxim with these
three incredible um photographers who like came in from France,
uh team that came in from like tom Ford, like
super high end fashion. We were we were doing these
like video clip like short film inspirations for the shoot,

sourcing the locations I was involved, and all the things
we were like taking references from the first Beyonce a
visual album and it was like the coolest, sexiest vibius
thing I've ever worked on. That, Like photographs came out
of and it was such a I had this pang,

being like we could have actually done something that made
us feel special, but like back then when we were
we just felt like bossed around and used and and
the glaring difference under you know, quote unquote the same
banner I get fifteen years apart or whatever. But it

really wasn't lost on me when I thought back to
this episode. Also at the shoot. UM, first of all
those pictures that we see that Rachel takes, or the
Brook takes of Rachel in the episode, those are pictures
that were up in our writer's office. I would to

go visit the writer's office in Los Angeles. Imagine she
didn't know, she didn't know, yeah, And I remember seeing
them being like, what then is this um? But then
our boss came to the maximum shoot and he made
a production out of giving me a present in front

of Sophia and Daniel because he was trying to put
so it was an iPod that he had loaded with
music he thought was applicable to me and wanted Sophia
to see it to put it her in her place,
and he wanted Daniel to see it because he was
trying to make her jealous and little game. Oh god,

I mean, like, by the way, who does that with
a pack of like twenty four year old We weren't
even we were twenty three, right, it's sick on like
every So that is something you do for your crush
when you're in high school, or your girlfriend or boyfriend
when you're an adult, or you know, your your spouse
or your best friend. It's not something you do for

an employee. Who is who is taking pictures? Taking pictures?
Who is what fifteen years twenty years your junior and
you are a married adult man, married adult man. I
just remember how scary and uncomfortable that stuff felt, like, Hillary,

I remember him doing that to you that day, and
how sick it made me feel, and looking at you
because I could see you like collapse a little bit.
And then I remember trying to catch your eyes, but
you were like looking at the floor, like burning with discomfort.

But then like I remember you checking to the side
to like see are they watching this? Like I was watched,
and I was like trying to catch your eye but
also not make a scene and let you know I
saw you and let you know I knew it was him,
But we couldn't talk about it because he was in
the world like it was all just so awful, like

it's awful. Well, because we'd all been pitted against each
other in different ways, and we had actually had a
nice day for all of our discomfort, you know, when
you're in the trenches and you're all just like, I
guess we're doing this thing okay, and we'd actually, like you,
Me and Danielle had had this kind of like nice
day where we would all check in with each other

and be like, no, you look good, you look good.
I'm here for you. Let me put my hand here,
you know, let me like I'll hold you. Um. And
he came in and just made this very like visual
move to be divisive. And I was so embarrassed because
I even though it was like a day, I was like, oh,

well we're cool, like the girls are cool, this is great,
and he just I was so embarrassed. I was so embarrassed.
I just went to my friends Steve's house afterwards, and
I was like, can I wash my face here? I
just wanted to wash it off. You know, we we
were all really pitted against each other, and this is

a great example of that because I never even heard
I think I remember hearing like, oh, the girls are
and were you guys in New York? Where did you
go for the But they you were off. The girls
are off doing their maximum shoot and they replaced you
with Danielle Joy. Um, that's what they told you. Yeah,
they told me they didn't come to me because I

was too fast and um, and I just wasn't like.
I wasn't the hot girl I wasn't like a hot
girl on the shop anymore. Joy. They told us they
asked you and you said no. Okay. First of all,
I don't understand how a person calls the co star. Look.
I understand we're all like on the body, on the
spectrum of bodies, like we're slender ladies. Yes. Wait wait, yes,

I never heard a word. I'm like, how they could
call the girl who literally has the physically smallest waste
of all of us fat. I don't understand. Second of
all they said to us, because by the way, when
when I said I don't want to do it, I
was like, but Joy is not doing it. She said no,
and they go, well, she said no, so you have

to say yes, and she said no. First they told
us that you said I absolutely will not do it.
And Maxim said, well, we can. You know, it's still
it'll still work if it's a group of the girls,
if it's just the three, but any less than three
then we don't have the cast. So they basically said, sorry,
she said no first, so you can't. Wow. They never asked.

They never even asked. I just happened, and I was like, wow.
I mean I probably wouldn't have done it because at
the time I didn't you know, what Maxim was to
me was not something that I felt like I wanted
to be a part of. So I would have said no.
But they didn't even ask. It was just like the
assumption Joy's not going to do it. And by the way,
here's why. Because isn't it crazy though, to to realize

that they escapegoated you to tell the three of us
we couldn't say no exactly. They threw you under the bus.
I was like, why does she get to say no?
And I don't. I don't understand. I was like, how
come Joy got first pick? I mean, if they had
put me in that position, in the position they put
you guys in, Yeah, we weren't mad at you, but

we were piste about it. But that was the beginning
of all of them. It was like, for some reason,
I don't know. I think it was right after I
had gotten my life and um our boss was It
started with that in the last episode, the comment that
Rachel makes you're a fat girl the little head? Yes,

what was that? I remember reading that on paper and
just being like, what, Like that's so it's so random.
That actually must be what he thinks of me. And
it was such a strange. I just never you know,
you just there's something sometimes like someone will say something
to you and you're like, I never ever saw myself

that way. And now suddenly every time I look in
the mirror, I'm like, am I fat? Like do I
guess I do kind of have a little head? Does that?
Is that bad? Is that unattractive? And it's so dumb,
but it really followed me around for a long time
in my brains and and and what a fucker. That
was the beginning of it when that comment came out

in the script and we had to do the scene
and she had to say it over me, like, you know,
ten times in the takes, and then we uh. From
that point forward, it was like I started getting treated
like just put joy in the category of like middle
aged mom and we're gonna we're gonna do all the
sexy stuff with everybody else. There's nothing interesting about Joy

anymore because she's married. And apparently they thought I was
fat and boring, and so that was it. And I
just got kind of like replaced with Danielle, who I
love and you know, I've said a million times, like
I love. It was just so so weird. But what's
crazy about that? And this is something I've realized in
our industry because of the way we as women get treated.

You being married at the time, whether it was conscious
or unconscious, meant that a group of men went, well,
no chance of now, so what are we gonna do
with her? And it's like, immediately, that's not what I'm
here for. And by the way, the irony is that
in the last episode, you and James have that scene
in bed that is vulnerable and sexy as helper, like

him crawling on top of you and you guys having
that conversation real close to each other's faces. I was like,
I don't know if I should be watching those, but
I like it. This is intimate. This feels really intimate,
and I feel like a fly on the wall, but
I want to know what they're saying, and it's like,
we don't Our sexiness are our mininity. Our ability to

connect doesn't change whether we're married or not, or whether
we're twenty or forty. Like, I'm sorry, maybe it's ghosh
or whatever to say, but I think we're all a
ton hotter now than we were then. Girl, I'll freak
here now after two kids than I was. Come Hello, yes,
I'm way better in bed than I was then. I've

heard joy. It's like, it's true, and it's so irritating
to me that what we were allowed to do or
portray was governed by whether or not our boss thought
he might have a shot at us. That's just disgusting,

and it doesn't I want to say, Like, I know,
our business isn't easy for men, and like I get
that they get objectified. And look, we made James take
a shot off a lot on this show. I don't
know if he liked it or not, but it was
a lot. And I get that they also have the
standards they're supposed to live up to, but they don't
go through this part and I'm pissed that we do.
I just I'm pissed about it. Well, hopefully girls talk

to each other now, you know, like, yeah, I hope
that there's a you know, a pack of eNews coming
up that are like, oh, rules, we're not going to
follow those. I missed that in this episode. I missed
the camaraderie with the girls. In this episode we're all
like split off and dealing with our own weird stuff.

Although one of my I mean what I one thing
I really love about the camaraderie that we didn't get
to see too much of but we knew was there
was Brooke being an amazing friend to Haley and just
continuing to take the beating from every left, right and center.
Everybody's coming after Brooke, and I love that she just

holds it in, holds her own stays there strong for
her friend, and then at the end is like, okay, listen,
it's time. I've I've hit my limit. But you know,
she's just so true blue. I love it. I love
it too, and I loved You're right it was. It
was such a breath of fresh air our scenes together
because even they've given this weird thing, it's like it's

it's like a it's like a bitchy little seesaw that
they give to brook and Rachel, like Brookish shooting Rachel's
photos for the messing thing. But they're yelling at each
other while they're doing it, and I'm like, why are
we doing this? We're roommates, you know, whatever, I get it.
Complaints are in private. It's pillow fights and bitchy see sauce.

I'm like, if I'm taking pictures of one of you
in your underwear, I'm gonna be like, you look kind
of amazing. Your tits look great. I'm so proud of
ever Ever, So it's like that that bummed me out
a little bit because I think when when they give
me and Danil fun things to do together, it's so
much more entertaining than when we're snipping at each other.

So it was it was like such a breath of
fresh air the scenes with us leaning on each other,
and and that was the stuff I thought was so
well written. The misdirect remains where you still don't know
who's pregnant, what's happening, you know. I keep trying to

watch the scenes, remembering that at the time nobody knew
it was Haley, And it's so tender and real and
kind and that's really refreshing given all the creepiness in
the in the show right now. Yes, I know, I
loved that Matt Bar's back tattoo. God man, that Psycho

Deeric was really horrifying. And he's so good. Matt Bar
is just so good at being subtle and um, yeah, yeah,
I thought they handled it well in spite of all
that we were talking about about you know what it
was bringing in, um, just from a purely artistic level.

He's a great actor and I thought, you know, Bethany
did a really nice job with that. She did and
it's super creepy. Sure is My favorite kind of stories
are when you can see both sides right and you

can see the cool older brother energy in Matt Bar.
Like we said, he's got like Ryan Gosling energy where
he's like, I don't have a problem with you, Luke,
Like I think you're a cool guy. Like, what's what's
going on here? Boy? The second you see that like underlayer,
you can't un see it. And the escalation of creepy

in this episode, it just kept getting grosser and grosser
and grosser. And yeah, I mean I know what was
going on in l A. Like we've talked about it.
Our show kind of hit this point where it was
like no one could correct or give advice to or

rain In our creator anymore. And so I know that
that Writer's Room was just a show of like, what
is the grossest, most inappropriate we can get away with
on a c W show. And yeah, because we were
then officially competing with Gossip Girl in the o C
which was all very still on at that point. I

think they only did how many seasons did they do?
Three or four? Well they started after us though, didn't
they know they're before us? They launched? Oh they were, Yeah,
it was definitely Gossip Girl. I remember that was we
were constantly hearing that we were in a race with
Gossip Girl all the time, which was so strange because

it's just two shows that are completely different. You go
to these places for completely different things. Well, and we
all could have been very kumbaya, like what if Brooke
hung out at the Gossip Girl kids in New York?
You know it? Girls great, it was fun. It was
like totally thought you went there for that whole world
and that vibe. Why did we need to also be
that world? It didn't make any sense. No, No, a

female executive energy is like, hey, let's do a fun crossover.
The energy we had back in those days was we
hate each other dot dot com. Yeah yeah, and it
feels like self sabotage, like to have to have two
of the biggest hit teen shows on the same network
and nine say, well, we could really use this to

our advantage, Like why was clothes over? Bros not dressing
Serena Vanderwoodsen Hello, absolutely, Like Don, why you're not kissing
that broody dude on the show is what I'm saying,
grumpy mother girl. Um, do we want to get into

all the Derek of it all? Because there was so
much stuff. I feel like it's weird this episode with
it ping ponged. It was like Derek pregnancy, deb Shelly
Maxim shoot Hyman's all over all over Well. We had
the introduction of Elizabeth Arnwa who play Shelly the Clean

We Love the band. Liz was a friend of mine,
um and our creator. This was peat creep right where
he was my betty and was like, what was high
school really like for you? And so I told him
that I was a part of a group called clean

teens in high school and like our joke because that
we would we were at all the football parties, you know,
we would like go to stuff, but we'd be like
virgin for life. You know. It was way of making
fun of ourselves before anyone else could, but also about
setting a boundary with the boys at our school so
that they just knew not to try anything weird, you know.

And back then there wasn't a lot of that. Um,
we didn't have like a lot of role models that
I could be like, hey, you know, actually I don't
want you touching my boobs. You know, Like it was
hard to find the language for it, and so making
a joke out of it, put out a T shirt,
that's it. It was the easiest thing to do because

it made it funny and and you had the confidence
to pull it off because I didn't care. Uh, it
was just like day, don't date me. There's a lot
of you. I'll figure it out. Um. And the thing
is we all were legitimately like virgins, you know, and
we were good with that. We didn't feel pressured. When

we were in high school. Was the era of like
girls gone wild and whip them out Wednesday, and like
everyone wanted to see your tits and to stand up
to that and be like, my brand of feminism is
earn it like you don't. Nobody just gets this. This
is special. Um, I had no idea when he was like, hey,

we want to put clean teens on the show. I
thought he was going to honor kind of what that meant,
and instead it turned into this really gross parody where
no one actually was a virgin. They were all just
hypocrites and liars and mean and mean, like hateful in
his mind, every chick is a horr at heart. Yeah right, yeah,

And and when you've been the quote unquote whore that
exists in his mind, you regret it. You regret your choices,
you sob over them, and you want to use them
as a weapon to shame other women who don't express
this regret over their hordom too. And it's just like

the whole thing makes me so mad because it's black
and white. Yeah, And and it it doesn't also tell
the truth about anything. It doesn't tell the truth about
your experience. It doesn't it doesn't actually highlight the experiences
of young women like it's it's like a cartoon version

of all of it. And at the core of it
is judgment. Yeah, everything's jammed into one into one, like
you know, twenty minutes slot when there's so much, so
much to be explained expounded upon. Um. I mean we
teased out the water work for six episodes. We could

have teased out the Shelly the Shelly revealed for a minute.
I mean, I think the interesting conversation, at the very
least that it sparks is how people mask shame, Like
what do you do when you feel shame about something,
whether the shame is justified or not in your own mind?
There are plenty of things that I feel shame about
that other people would be like, there's what do you worry?

What are you worried about? But you know, we all
have our own versions of that, and how people mask
it um usually turns into judgment. I think in my
experience it ends up being you start using your the
the opposite of whatever it is that you're using to
cover up your shame. You start taking that and lording
it over other people and saying, why aren't you doing this?

Why aren't you doing it the same way I'm doing it?
See see look, I'm I'm virtuous. I'm doing it the
right way. Um. And so I've liked the opening of that,
because that's an interesting conversation to me. I liked that Shelley, Um.
I think it's strange that she trusts Brooke right away

with like you know her. Um. I like that she
represents a lot of the girls I did go to
school Worth who weren't necessarily in clean teens, but who belonged.
There was a there was a youth group we would
go to. They were called the fire Escape and I
think they were named because you were trying to escape
the fiery pits of hell and like, yeah, yeah, girl,

that's what I'm talking about. They had like a haunted
house that was all like drugs and abortion, and it
was one of those right. It was like Hillary crazy
when I tell you I grew up in like the
thickness of that, I did, and it was It's a
strange mix because you're friends with those kids and you're like, yeah,
it's a Wednesday, and like there's really nothing else to
do in our town. I guess I'll go to this thing. Um.

And And I felt really badly for Shelly because I
don't think her shame is that. UM. I don't think
the shame is hers. I think the shame is something
that is imposed on her by her parents and her church.
And Shelly talks about you meet a boy and you're
having fun and everything's like great, and I can't tell

my parents I got pregnant at church camp. And it's like, well, baby,
why can't you? Why can't you? That's awesome A great
question because judgment, judgment isn't love. And what bothers me
about I don't know about that. Well that that's that's

my opinion anyway, is that like you don't judge in shame,
Like if you can't tell the people who say they
love you what you're going through, whether those people will
have an opinion that it is a good thing or
a bad thing, that's not love, you're not safe. And
and what I struggle with in this again when you

look at who we worked for, a man who cared
not at all about the real experiences of women, who
wanted to write fantasy experiences of women, and a man,
by the way, who does not have children, so has
no concept of what pregnancy is and no concept that
if you want to have a baby, yes it's a miracle,

but pregnancy is literally a life threatening condition, like to
bottom life threatening condition miraculous, So special. I can't wait
to be a mom. My husband is so cute. All
I want is a little ginger baby that looks like
but like Grants pictures is a little boy with red hair.

Just give me eight of them. Like, I can't say it,
but like, pregnancy is dangerous and we've divested from these realities.
And what bothers me about someone like our boss writing
this story, which is shame, shame, shame, regret, regret, regret, nightmare, nightmare, nightmare.
My parents judged me, and my church judged me. All

the stuff you were mentioning, how like it's actually antithetical
to the real exp variances of women in our country,
of women who seek reproductive care, who seek abortion care
are already mothers plural. Well, the mythology is it's all
slutty teenage girls exactly. And that's why it angers me,

is the mythology does a disservice. It's it's repeating the
same kinds of lies as that other vertical we've talked about,
which like grooms boys to be violent and tells them
that's masculinity. Like, I don't like when men repeat lies
about women that harm women. And I really I struggle

with the ways that all of us in various storylines
Elizabeth with this thing was Shelley that each of us
have talked about how vulnerable we felt when we had
to do things on screen that we knew to not
be true. I don't like that a forty five year
old married man who who wanted to cheat on his
wife with twenty year old girls was writing storylines that

shamed sixteen year old girl. It like, it makes my
blood boil, you know, I see exactly where you're coming from.
It just irks me. Man. I think there is on
the on another viewpoint of that, there is a realism
to um. I have spoken with plenty of women in

my life who have had abortions and feel and they
do feel regret about it, um and then there are
many who don't um so and I think the fear
and this how scared it is to be a teenage
girl and be in that position. You know, as I said,
we were watching the episode, that does seem realistic to me.
I think that's a realistic situation. But in the context

of everything that we're talking about with who the boss,
who our boss was, UM, how he was just using
all of these like very deeply complex emotional issues and
turning them into quips and sound bites and like from
little emotional storylines. It takes away from the value that
actually maybe could have offered. Well, he weaponizes those things

into purity politics. And I hear what you're saying, and
I also have to say, like, I have a handful
of girlfriends who've had abortions who don't regret it, and
many of many women I've spoken to who are only
alive because they were able to have abortions, like whose

lives were threatened by terminal pregnancies. And the reality of
this conversation which everyone is entitled to their feelings and
their opinions and their emotions. It's an emotional conversation for people.
But it is nobody's business to place judgment on what
you need or what you needed at the time, or

what you needed to stay alive, or or what you
needed to get out of an abusive relationship, or just
what you needed because it wasn't right for your life.
It's nobody's business. And what bothers me here is the
judgment that again this man put on all of us
as girls. I just it. Just imagine being a sixteen

year old girl at home who had had an abortion
in two thousand six and watching this and being like, oh,
I'm bad. Like, we didn't need to do it that way.
We just didn't need to have this conversation in that way,
and it didn't need to be had by a man
who treated women the way that man treated all of us. Yeah.

I just didn't see it that way. I didn't see
it as like, I'm like, if I was sixteen at
home and saw that and think I'm bad, I would
think it's relatable because I probably would have felt some
of those things. And I what was interesting is that
Shelley did take though that all of those that shame
and emotion and turn it into judgment and it was
very clear that she was doing that and it was

very gross, and so it was it was I thought
it was a nice way of saying, hey, don't yes,
don't shame people, don't act out in judgment the way
that she's handling this, because it's not pretty and it's harmful.
It's hurtful. I like the way Elizabeth played it, Like
that panic that she exhibits while she's telling the story
to Brooke. It's like she's having an anxiety attack as

she's telling Brooke. And you know when your nervous system
is so affected by something that you just cannot mask it,
and you see like Shelley's nervous system just like glitching
as she's telling this story because she's trying to make
it make sense and she's like, I have to find
the path of like righteousness and this, and the other

thing that bugged me about this was I was like,
why do you think all church people are hypocrites? Like, like,
why is the one church person you have in the
entire series the one who's like, I'm a big fat
liar and I loved you know, like that was his
one representation of a church person on the show. Yeah,

it would have been nice to see some alternatives perspectives. Yeah,
it's judgment. It's just judgment all around, and I don't
like it, but I do I will say, you know,
I think I think the silver lining to your point Hill.
And by the way, Joy, you're talking about her performance too,
is that Elizabeth took something that felt pretty icky all

around and was like I'm going to figure out how
to make this girl feel human and and maybe even
be an example of like what cruel judgment looks like,
and I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna do more with her.
Like she brought that visceral anxiety, she brought that misplaced
emotion that she's dumping on Brooks. She brought all of that.

You know, she put so much more into the performance
than than what our boss put on the page. And
that is when like, I just have moments where I
look at, you know, the three of us on the
on the screen right out and our our friends. I
look at Liz and Neil on screen, and I just think, like,
we got such a badass group of women because we
were unwilling to be shrunken by the man who wanted

to like shrink us and put us all in these
little boxers us like Ripley's believe it or not right
sunk the kids. Like one of my most favorite memories,
as the course of season four goes on, is that
he had hired Liz specifically because he was like, well,
if this is something that really happened to you, do
you have like a hot friend that should come play

this person. And I was like, yes, like my friend Elizabeth,
you know, like and she's friends with Danil and like
our girl gang will be together and his fantasy was like,
this is going to be so hot, and instead what
ended up happening is a stone wall, just like all
the chicks would hide after work and compare notes, and

it was the worst thing that ever happened to It's
so victorious that the idea of and this this leads

me a bit into Dan, the idea of judgment as
love UM and I want to I want to tap
on that a little because I don't think it's in
the in the way that it initially sounds like. But
what I'm thinking of is the reason that we demand
in our spirits or our hearts, this judgment over um

Keith's death, over the way that Nathan is being taken
care of, not being taken care of the way he's
been treated by his parents, particularly with Dan. We want
to see Dan received the justice that he is due
for the horrible things that he's done. And we want
that because we love Nathan, because we loved Keith, and

I think that desire for justice often then turns into
shame immediately instead of UM acknowledging like where it's coming from,
this deep deep love. And when I watch Nathan and
Deb and Dan in this episode, I think a lot

about that because Nathan you said it in the last
episode that we filmed Hillary or taped, um that Nathan
is in like full trauma mode. He's been basically a
bit abandoned by his parents. He's um, he's his uncle
has been shot. I mean, I guess we can just
start going down the list of all the horrible thing

the year. All right, he fell off his bike this episode, Yes,
all of these awful things that are happening, and now
he's totally acting out with Rachel, which is still a
little confus excuse me, still a little confusing to me.
But um, I like the dance. I like this back

and forth just as drama. It's it's really interesting to
watch what's happening with his parents and all that they've created,
the hurricane that they've created, how it's affecting him, and
how it's affecting both of them right now, like everybody's
spiling out of control because there's no justice happening. Do
you guys, do you think that that intervention at the
beginning of the episode would have been more successful if

Dan hadn't been invited, Like, yeah, thats just how are there?
I feel like no one could have expected that to
go well well, and they knew that it wasn't going
to play well, which I think is why they gave
the therapist the line being like, you know, everyone who's

important to you has to be here, because everyone was like,
why is he here? She hates him, like like he's
driven her to drink. She should not be the one
in the room. The worst interventional best ever, Please invite
the play the person that's going to make you feel
at least safe your abuser. Didn't that man grab you
by the threat of a week ago? Yeah, threatened to

kill you. We'll have him come when. I didn't love
the reveal of Keeps sleeping with dev That was kind
of oh my god, Hayley Hilarus getting all of the
tea is so good, Keith sleeping with what was the
other one? Wait? There was one more that you were
just was happening. There were multiple things and you just

like swinging your head around like why does nobody tell
me anything? I was cackling. That's an intimidating thing though
for a kid, because you know, addiction is scary. When
this when we were filming this, remember that show Intervention.
It was a hit, like it had only I watched
that show all the time. We would get off work

and like watch that show because it was like, Oh
my god, I can't believe this is on TV. It's
crazy sometimes how topical our show is because we were
really drawing from the other things that were cultural at
the time. Um and that show intervention was like a
really big deal. But deb playing it so um like

she really does not care. She just does not care
at all, And it's heartbreaking because we know we've seen
the good and so it just makes this feel so
like scuzzy and weird. Well because you know how much
she does care, and so there's some kind of connective
tissue that makes you watch her in this episode and

think if this is how far gone she is. Essentially,
she's behaving like she doesn't care if she's alive or not,
and that is such a sad place for a human
to be. And and the projection of that none of
this matters energy on her son onto her daughter in law.

Can you imagine being the tea you're in that classroom
or just like man, it's the mayor's wife. I guess
I better demands pills from a teenager. I mean, that's
a call the CPS, even if the kid doesn't live
in the house anymore, Like that's a phone call for sure,
he's a man. You walk over and take the bottle

of pills off the desk, so nobody gets to take
anybody home take any pills. Somebody gets the pills. Now,
that's what Haley became a great teacher. No pills for you,
no pills for you. No one knew what to do,
and the teacher just says, Okay, everybody, back to your tests.
What insane? That made me uncomfortable that boy. You know

what I did love was, um, you guys, as I
makeup in this episode, we all had the double wing.
It was like it was the hair Hillary too. It
was a double who was doing our makeup? Was this
Rachel kick? Was this? Honestly? Yeah? Because it all felt

like a little like punk rock princess. I loved that
we got We got some Cosmo girl and teen people
issues in that hair and makeup trail, and we were like,
we want this this one. That's just what my notes say.
Peyton's Luke, Yeah, you had the double eyeliner and I
had that single like sixties wing and I didn't even

realize it until we were at trick, but we both
had our hair half up different dudes, Like yours was
really curly and romantic and mine had like that that
like little sixties push up in the back almost. But
I wonder if they were like, we don't want to touch. Well,
that's probably what it was, but it weirdly struck me

visually as oh, you know, we have these two best
friends that aren't speaking right now, but they can't help
but make the same choices still because they're so similar, know,
like that like we kind of showed up looking like
each other, and I like, yeah, we sure did. I

mean we're going after the same dude or not? Who knows. Um.
I just want to say Peyton once again is like
co tuk to Brook Luke, I'll never talk. I okay,
I'll talk to I give I give you to her
on a silver platter. She's all yours. Peyton could not

have tried harder to get those two back together. It's
all so funny. It is so funny. It's like Lucas says,
all those boys, she's all yours, fellas, and you're basically
like Lucas, She's really she's all yours. She's the one
everybody's just trying to give Brook away. Oh god, it's
only a matter of time before Payton does that thing
where she like sends flowers to Brook but signs Lucas's name,

like starts like doing parent traps. Has to get back together.
She's doing the cute ver of Derek telling lies to everybody,
but instead of trying to keep him apart, she's trying
to make a romance happen. God, we tried, you know,
we sure tried, but that that whole night at Trick
is weird because we laughed so hard when when Rachel

slides an underwear picture over to Nathan on the bar,
and it just is so dated because now we send
iPhone pictures like here, look at my boobs, congratulations, But
you had to print out a whole as picture in
whatever I printed this out at Costco and keeping your locker. Yeah,

I wore underwear in this shot to make sure the
guy at right it didn't see my ariolas, Like, oh god,
you that word makes me so uncomfortable. I mean, to
Nathan's credit, he passed the picture back. He gave it back.
He did, he did give it that. That's what I
was going to say, I really I continue to be

so impressed with the way that James plays Nathan in
all of these scenes, because it would be so easy
to lean into flirting with Rachel, and he he manages
to be very compassionate, but to have a firm wallup.
He's not judging her, he's not shaming her, he's not

leading her on. He's just like, you're going through something.
I see you. This is not for me. It's it's
so it's classy and mature. Yeah, it's getting into dangerous
territory though, Oh yeah, I feel it's like bubbling beneath
the surface, like it's getting into a place where he
could potentially still sleep with her just because he feels

like it, and there's some kind of chemistry happening, but
not get emotionally caught up in it. Hey man, she's
having a rough time, I know well. And you see
the way he begins to change the energy, like who
Nathan is at that bar when he hands that picture
back to Rachel, begins getting chipped away at by the

time they're out in the parking lot and he gets
on that motorcycle with her. But to James's credit, it's
so subtle and it would have been really easy to
play it up and to go, oh god, what's happening
to Nathan? But you said it Joy, you go, I
can see it. It might be coming, and I love

I love the hint of it rather than the the
big change happening quickly. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Well the scene
that you guys had Haley and Nathan where he is
just like, can you believe Brooke is doing this to Lucas?
Oh my god, that's scene. I know. That was the
first time that I think as an audience member, you go, oh,

it's Haley, it's not Brooke because they let me have
the reaction there. Yeah, and you're like, because she's scared,
and he says, yeah, i'd be scared. Don't you tell
a guy's life's over. Oh the gut bunch like you guys,
that turned my stomach upside down. Yea, yeah awful. They're
gonna have to go back to their round bed and

talk about it. Yeah. I mean, if he's going to
crawl on top of you again, talk it out, baby.
Where do you find sheets for a round bed? Girl?
I think you have to have two flat sheets and
then just like hope it doesn't untalk in the middle
of the night. How distressing have you, guys seen the
videos about the Swedish sleeping method. I went down, you, guys,

I went down a hole on t found actually a man.
Imagine that this journal that I'm lifting up is your bed,
like this is the mattress, but this half and this
half are their own comforters. So you basically get like
two queen size comforters and you like lightly overlap them
over the center, so each person has their own comforter,

but you're in the bed. I don't I don't like
to lose covers in the middle of the night, so
I don't know that it would be for me. But
I've now watched so many videos about it that I'm obsessed,
and I know that at some point this week I'm
gonna creep my husband out because I'm gonna be like, Hey,
I'm gonna bring another comforter downstairs and be like, what
are you talking about? Listen, it's not as weird as

a round bed. Let me try this because for one night. Yeah,
we need to be more creative in our bedmaking. I
get it. I get it. Plus you two are like
both only children. I think like having your own blank
ese is totally cool. Yeah, and then why do you
have kids, because that's a whole that's a whole reason.
I know what we do do that is quite funny

is I love to sleep under a weighted blanket because
I have tremendous anxiety and it calms me. I'm like,
if you've ever read Temple Grandin's studies on farm animals,
you'll know that to be squeezed lowers anxiety and animals
and in humans. And so I sleep under a weighted blanket,
and a weighted blanket is Grant's worst nightmare. He is
like that that is my it's evil. I hate it.

So what we said, that's heaven. Oh my god, it's
my heaven. We're just like heavy, a nice heavy blanket.
It's like it's like it's just like a nice it's
a nice touch. And so what we do now is
the weighted blanket is on one third of the bed,
like all the way on the right side, one third
from the bottom of the bed up to the top

of the cover's weighted blanket, and then there's two thirds
of the bed that's uncovered, so I can cuddle with
him in the two thirds of the uncovered bed. And
then when we're both like about to follow, I scooch.
I retreat over under the weighted blanket, but it doesn't
get on his legs because he hates it. There's no
retreating on a round bed, like there's not an edge.
You just fall off. By the way, where are your

feet supposed to go? They're gonna dangle off the curved No,
it's totally totally non functional. I feel like the only
way to sleep on a round bed is to sleep
in the fetal position at all times, which is not
good for your back. Or just be a single person,
one person in one single you're just like a starfish.

A round bed is for when you go through a
breakup and you're happy about it and you're like, it's mine.
Start now. Here's what I need for us to do
is take the video you acting out all of those
things right now, but mute it and then just run
the tape. Start that and this and this the mold

making shuffling. Oh my god, guys, we have a question
from Dana. She says, did you all make a playlist
together for the drama Queens RV Road Trip? And what
are some of the songs you played to get you hyped?

For shows. We definitely had some Abba and that we
didn't make a play but we had a we had
a DJ, and yeah, we made live to playlists every day.
What is that when you like add songs to the queue,
And yeah, we were doing we were doing a lot
of like Abba show tunes. I was trying to go
back to senior year in high school and requested Vitamin

C graduation song and could not have been less into it.
So I just like remember looking in the rear view
mirror at one point and she was like, are we
there yet? You were not of it all. I don't know, man,
I just wanted to go back to like Abba and share.
I'd really been feeling that vibe. I will say though,

the other thing that I loved, because obviously we love podcasts.
I loved that we had the perfect mix of tunes
that we were belting and then we would get into
podcasts and Hillary, you played us your Friends podcast Robbia
and Ellen Solve Crime and solved the case. Okay, you
played us your Friends podcast Robbie and Ellen Solved Case.

I am so deeply obsessed that I've also gone down
a rabbit hole on the case. We talked about and
say a bunch of TikTok videos to some friends and
I'm like, guys, you gotta listen to this podcast. It's
so good. I must have been sleeping when this happened.
You were definitely sleeping. Robbie and Chaudre is Um. She's

got a book that just came out called Fatty Fatty
Boom Boom. It's her memoir. But she is a lawyer
who was vital in getting a non said out of prison.
And she does a lot of exoneration work and wrongful
conviction work. And I met her working on a wrongful
conviction case in Tennessee. And so I love seeing other
women out there thrive and pushed back against patriarchy and

unjust systems. And yeah, I mean, look, if we could
do a crossover with like chicks who are solving crimes,
will be drama crime Queen all day, give it to
a day. I'm so in Yeah, yeah man Um, Well
thank you for your question, Dana. Yeah. Should we's been
a wheel? That's been a wheel? What if it's so?

What if it's who's most likely it's solved true crimes?
I would die solid crimes? Is the wheel listening to us?
Oh my God, don't be a creep wheel, don't be
a Darren. Who's most likely to travel to space? Who's
the richest? I am our boss made all the money

on our show? Unfortunately? Andy? Answer, Andy, Andy's the right answer.
I mean, look, what is if money wasn't an option? Right? Yeah,
not an option. Did you see that thing that William
Shatner said about seeing Earth from space and how he
thought it was going to be the best moment of

his life and instead it made him so incredibly sad.
Wait why really? He was, like, it just made me
realize that we were squandering the most beautiful thing I've
ever seen in my life. Like it was to have
someone whose entire career has been space oriented finally like
do the thing and then have it made him feel remorseful,

I guess, or just like an element of grief. I
was really taken aback by that. That's surprising. Yeah, as
a Ray Bradberry fan, I always thought like, yeah, we'll
go live on Mars. That sounds dope, Yeah, I'll go
do that. But I think it's really interesting that that point, right,
because you know, I've I've listened to a couple of

astronauts on podcasts as well who said that it when
you really see the Earth out there and you realize
what's here, like what is on this planet and you
just see the rest of space, there's just like rocks
out there in the empty You go, how how are

we still fighting over things? How are we not all
on the same team? How are we not protecting this planet?
Like it's a miracle. And so I feel that, you know,
the when you look around and you go like, man,
we're still missing it after all this time, Like aren't
we supposed to be smarter, be nice to each other everyone.

I like things that make me feel small. I think
it's one of the reasons. And also things that just
remind me I'm like a cog in the wheel. I
think that's why I've always been attracted to um antique
stores and having things in my home that are that
have history, because it's like a sort of subconscious reminder
that there was a whole life and world and many

many thousands and thousands of civilization years of civilization before
this moment right now and there you know, hopefully we'll
be many more in the future. And I'm just like
I'm a blip on the radar. Well, I found the
exact quote, he says, it was among the strongest feelings
of grief I have ever encountered. The trassed between the

vicious coldness of space and the warm nurturing of Earth
below filled me with overwhelming sadness. Every day we are
confronted with the knowledge of further destruction of Earth at
our hands, the extinction of animal species, of flora and fauna,
things that took five billion years to evolve, and suddenly
we will never see them again because of the interference
of mankind. It filled me with dread. My trip to

space was supposed to be a celebration. Instead it felt
like a funeral. Willie William Shatner. Then you know what,
I'm glad we made a TV show that's about mankind
trying to be nice to each other. You know, I mean, like,
for all the dorkiness of One Tree Hill, for all
of our missteps. If we are going to be here
for a blip, like, let's make let's make a warm hug.

You Also, thanks for joining us. I didn't know William
Shatner was so poetic and I'm so touched. Oh yeah, well,
let's go make some more loving content. Guys. Let's do
it all right. We will see you guys next week.
Oh my god, this title is awful and perfect. Oh no,

Season four, Episode five, I love you, but I have
chosen darkness. Done, don't do by everybody, by y'all. Hey,
thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review.
You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens
O t H. Or email us at Drama Queens at

I heart radio dot com. See you next time. We
are all about that high school drama. Girl Drama Girl,
all about them high school queens. We'll take you for
a ride in our comic Girl Cheering for the right
drama Queens up girl fashion, but your tough girl, you
can sit with us. Girl Drama Queens, Drama, Queens Drama,

Queen's Drama, Drama, Queen's Drama, Queens
Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC
Let's Be Clear with Shannen Doherty

Let's Be Clear with Shannen Doherty

Let’s Be Clear… a new podcast from Shannen Doherty. The actress will open up like never before in a live memoir. She will cover everything from her TV and film credits, to her Stage IV cancer battle, friendships, divorces and more. She will share her own personal stories, how she manages the lows all while celebrating the highs, and her hopes and dreams for the future. As Shannen says, it doesn’t matter how many times you fall, it’s about how you get back up. So, LET’S BE CLEAR… this is the truth and nothing but. Join Shannen Doherty each week. Let’s Be Clear, an iHeartRadio podcast.

The Dan Bongino Show

The Dan Bongino Show

He’s a former Secret Service Agent, former NYPD officer, and New York Times best-selling author. Join Dan Bongino each weekday as he tackles the hottest political issues, debunking both liberal and Republican establishment rhetoric.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.


© 2024 iHeartMedia, Inc.