Please Forgive Me ᐧ EP701

Sophia, Joy and Rob discuss the therapeutic rewards of rewatching the show… as well as a few painful reminders.  
 
Find out why Rob battled with portraying Clay, the trauma that encompassed the infamous beach scene, and why a specific moment between Nathan and Jamie helped them all to better understand the different layers of forgiveness.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
First of all, you don't know me. All about that
high school drama girl drama girl, all about them.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
High school queens.

Speaker 3 (00:08):
We'll take you for a ride, and our comic girl
shared for the right teams drama.

Speaker 4 (00:12):
Queens up girl fashion, but your.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Tough girl, you could sit with us.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Girl drama, queens, drama, quise drama, queens drama, drama, queens, drama,
queens Listen.

Speaker 5 (00:27):
So far, I've literally been given zero information or direction
on how to do this job, and I kind of
feel like we should just continue that trend. It's kind
of fitting. It's like the show just no one told
me anything. They're like, eh, have fun, kid, good luck.

Speaker 4 (00:41):
So Rob, I'm gonna let you in on a little something,
which actually might be a perfect way to start season seven.
When we first sat down to start talking about this,
I don't know if you remember, you looked at us
on FaceTime, you go, but what are we going to
talk about? And we be like, who knows, We'll make
it up as we go along. Well, no, till we

(01:01):
start like there is no direction, we just get to try.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
It's terrifying, but great for you, Rob. You're good at
him prov.

Speaker 5 (01:10):
And I'm not afraid to make an ass of myself.
I'm comfortable with that's my strike zone. So I feel
like we're good.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
Okay, Well, now that we've gotten a little bit of
how the sausage is made, out of the way, Robertel
take us away, read us our synopsis at the beginning
of season seven.

Speaker 5 (01:27):
Oh, I have waited so long for this moment. Season seven,
episode one, four thirty am. Apparently they were traveling abroad.
Air date September fourteenth, two thousand and nine. Nathan learns
of a shocking accusation that could threaten his career, much
to the chagrin of his sports agent, Clay Chagrin. All Right,
Brooke prepares to launch a new fashion line, and Julian

(01:49):
decides to produce a big movie. Haley's sister Quinn, makes
a surprise visit. Meanwhile, Jamie celebrates his seventh birthday directed
by Clark Mathis.

Speaker 4 (01:59):
Robert, you have just soothing synopsis voice.

Speaker 5 (02:02):
Yeah, I've spent so much time practicing two hours in
the shower this morning, so that is really helpful and
good feedback to get.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Have you been told that you have a good radio voice?
Is this like something that's followed you in life?

Speaker 5 (02:16):
More a good face for radio. I one time had
a friend who did voice over, tell me, yeah, you
do the cool guy vocal fry, and I said what.
She was like, it's what cool people have. And it
was the only time I ever thought like, oh, oh,

(02:37):
it's not fun to become aware of something you do
all the time, you know. Yeah, that said, this is
a great episode. We're so happy to be here.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 4 (02:50):
I know how you feel about that. I remember this
was not long ago, like this was pretty recent. Someone
showed me a video like a bunch of us were
out to lunch and a friend of ours had taken
this video and they're like, isn't it so funny like that?
I just love that you always do that gag, like
when you really love a sandwich and you pretend to
go cross side. And I was like what And literally

(03:13):
one of my best friends went what And I was
like what are you talking about? And they were like,
you're not doing that as a joke and I was like,
doing what as a joke? And they literally replayed me
the video and I was like, is that what I
look like when I eat a sandwich? And I apparently
when I'm really enjoying something I'm eating. Not apparently actually

(03:35):
I've seen it now in video evidence. Basically go like
a really odd version of cross eye. And a lot
of my friends thought I was being due purposefully funny,
and I am a little horrified by it.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
It's great.

Speaker 5 (03:52):
This is going to translate to every single time you
and I hang out, me slyly trying to get you
to order a sandwich. Oh, yes, we should have sandwi,
which is it's total.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
Yeah, I'll go to Potato Chip Deli today. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (04:04):
Man, sorry, you're bummed out. You know what would make
you feel better? Probably a sandwich?

Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yeah, and I mean enjoy you're pointing it out. I
am like, I'm a true sandwich person, so you know,
I get it.

Speaker 5 (04:19):
There's nothing worse than when I will speak for myself.
At the first acting class I ever took, it was
a commercial acting class, and the teacher said, you should
you should start to figure out how you look like
when you're just being so set up a camera and
sit in front of it and just call your friends
and family and just record. And I didn't get more

(04:41):
than probably three minutes into watching that video before I
was horrified just all of the things I do that
I was wildly unaware of so listeners, if you really
want to get hyper self aware and uncomfortable, record yourself
casually having conversations and just see all the things not
aware that you do all the time.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
I can't decide if that would be a great tip
or if it would just make me implode as a person.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, but after the implosion, I think it would help.
I think it would help every It helps every It's
got to help every actor, right, like to be able
to know how like how to feel in your body
that you know, when you're on a set, if you're
not doing some of those things, you're like, oh, I'm
not connected, I'm like feeling punky. I don't know. Did
help you?

Speaker 5 (05:28):
Initially I imploded in a very big way.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
Okay, it would pass the implosion.

Speaker 5 (05:32):
But past it, I agree. I think when you're an actor,
any sort of position that is like front facing the public,
it is very good to be aware of just what
your general body language is and your ticks are. That said,
if that is not required for your job, don't need
to do it. Don't go down there. Yeah, stay out
of the basement.

Speaker 4 (05:50):
Oh man, I guess it's like it's bad enough for me.
Sometimes going back and watching these episodes and going, huh
do I do.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
That with my face?

Speaker 4 (05:57):
Like, I don't know if I just if I would
be able to hand will it not edited down for time?
I might sob.

Speaker 5 (06:05):
Yeah. Did you ever have a time where you or
are you even to this day? Are you comfortable watching yourself?
Are you able to watch yourself?

Speaker 4 (06:14):
I don't love it.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
Joy, No, I'm uncomfortable. I don't I don't like it.
It feels also also feels a bit purposeless to me,
because I'm the point of what we do is to
be in the moment of doing it, to play and
have fun, and to then sit down and go back
and watch what I'd like. The moment's gone for me,

(06:38):
So why would I watch it for me? I watch
I like watching what other people did. It's fun to
like see a story come together as a whole and
be like, oh, that was fun, they edited it this
way or whatever. But I am uncomfortable when I'm on screen.
I don't like to watch it.

Speaker 5 (06:54):
And has it always been that way?

Speaker 3 (06:56):
I think that developed. I think the more I saw
myself on screen, from like the ages of twelve to sixteen,
eventually I was like, ah, this isn't good for me.
I should just continue, Like because I was a theater kid,
so doing theater, you're just in the moment. There's no
there's maybe a tape from you know, like the back
of the audience a VHS where everything's bloring and you
can't see it anyway, and like that's fun. But yeah,

(07:17):
really starting to see myself on screen, I was like,
this is so anti the training that I've had the theater.
It's this is so not what I'm supposed to be doing,
is watching myself. I don't even like looking at myself
on zoom. It's I'm like thick, fidgety, and I'm like, oh,
my shirt and my hair, and I like, stop looking
at myself because I just can't. I'm like, oh, how
do I fix it? And then I'm like, I'm not
supposed to fix it. I'm supposed to be here in

(07:38):
the moment. Sets off my neurosis, I think, what about you.

Speaker 5 (07:44):
I used to not be able to at all, to
the point where I really couldn't watch anything without just
massively cringing and just getting lost and only seeing what
I did wrong and just not picking myself. But it's
interesting because as I've grown as I sort of you know,
going to therapy, learning the practice of self love and

(08:05):
self compassion. I am now able to sort of have
a different experience with that, kind of the opposite trajectory
of you, where now I can watch it and go
that worked, I bought that, or no, okay, we reached
for that one, you know, especially nowadays because everything's a
self tape. I used to not be able to self
tape without it just being a brutal exercise and self judgment.

(08:28):
You know, it was all stick and no carrot. And
I'm able to now just watch it and kind of
be free of a lot of that sort of negative
chatter and just go, yeah, that's good, it's close, or
that's it. We can move on, you know. Where it
used to just be brutal.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Self tapes are different. I can do that with self
tapes because I'm because I'm wanting to make sure I'm
presenting the best possible thing, so I sort of have
to go into that zone so I can really, like.

Speaker 4 (08:59):
I think, I literally I'm like, well, I'm made. I
guess I'm never gonna work again. I'm not doing that,
and I'm not sure you're in any dangerous I'm just like,
so I hate it. I'm actually really trying to turn
it into a bit of an exercise, like like a reprogramming,

(09:19):
because I do. I love to come to work and
play and I love, like, oh my god, especially if
there's a project that is so great and I can
bop in for a day, you know, be like a
lynch pin do some important scene for something with people
I love. Like I'm always game. I'm not the person
that's like give me number one on the call sheet
every time. I don't give a Like if it's a

(09:39):
great group of people and a great story and I
get to contribute big or small, love that totally. So
I'm trying to sort of in my brain recently, I
was like, huh, what if I treated making a self
tape like going in to do a great cameo on
a movie. I like, like I have to I have
to like convince myself into it, I think. But I

(10:00):
find it so interesting Rob to hear you talk about
like particularly for you as I mean not to like
not to objectify you, but welcome to our life on
our TV show, but like as like an objectively like
handsome man, like you know you are a dude, like God,
when I met you, like they had you like walking

(10:21):
through lipstick jungle with no shirt on, like in slow mo,
doing close ups on your blue eyes. Like I think
it's so easy for us to project so much confidence
onto men who you know, in one sense like one
the genetic lottery, and in another sense, play confident characters
like I had that sort of cognitive dissonance with who

(10:42):
people thought I was because I played Brooke Davis versus
who I am. And it's interesting to me to hear
you talk about how much work you've had to do
to be good to yourself, to be able to watch yourself,
because especially after last week, like talking about how you
came into the show and talking about how you guys
redid that amazing Jerey Maguire scene with Clay and the ball,

(11:05):
I was like eating you up on screen this whole episode.

Speaker 5 (11:09):
I was.

Speaker 4 (11:10):
It is confident, it is fast paced, it is energetic,
Like I was like cheerleading for you in front of
the TV by myself, which I wish you could have seen.
I should have set up the camera. I would have
been like, wow, I didn't know I made that face.
But like, you're so magnetic and charming and funny and
dry and all of these things on our show. Yeah,

(11:32):
so I'm wondering if you're having the experience that we
started having when the podcast started, which was now we
have this decade or so of distance from our show
instead of having to watch it like you know, week
of and live tweet like we do on things we
do now, is it is it fun for you? Like

(11:53):
are you looking back and going, oh my god, I
actually do think I get why people love this show
so much, Like are you there yet? Or is it
still weird for you because we're only in episode one.

Speaker 5 (12:01):
Yeah, well it's still for sure weird. That said I easily.
That was one of my notes. Is I totally see
why this show was a success. I watched it and
all of it and all the levels. I went, yeah,
that's great, that works. I'm in I love this story.
I love that story. These people are killing it. So
there is zero mystery to me as to why One

(12:24):
Tree Hill was a success and why it continues to
resonate with people. But kind of to your point about
Lipstick Jungle, right, it was this odd thing where I'd
done a couple of things in a row where I
was the shirtless young guy and the problem was this
happened early in my career and again way before I
start to figure out like who I am and like
know myself. I sort of assumed, Okay, this is the

(12:47):
version people want. It's twenty eight years old, super you know,
great shirtless abs ripped, So that's what I need to stay.
And then what happened was I found myself at a
point right at that stage, I realized this isn't healthy
for me. This is like not doing good things for
me internally. And I remember telling my team like, hey,
I would like to start getting away from that. And

(13:08):
then I got to our show and so I kind
of wasn't. I was still fine, but I wasn't as
in that shape. And I remember getting onto our show
and right off the bat they were they wanted me
in that last scene where I'm talking into the voice
note after being in bed with the gal with Sasha's character,
they wanted me shirtless. And I remember going it, kind

(13:29):
of we're kind of planting a seed of this guy's pain.
Does it kind of feels distracting? Could I just have
like a shirt? And I remember I remember our boss
at one point saying, hey man, we want that us
weekly body. Oh no, and so it's set up this
thing where so now I immediately felt fraudulent, like, oh
that my brain was right. That is what is that

(13:52):
is what is good, that is what people want, and
I'm not quite there anymore.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
H which is so heartbreaking, especially for somebody like you,
who's super intelligent, who's capable of breaking down characters and
presenting something like even just the simple thing of what
you just said, like we're dealing with this character's pain.
I think it's distracting for the audience to be looking
at me shirtless. It's not like you were opposed to
ever being shirtless on the show. It was just a
clear delineation of what's appropriate at the moment and what's

(14:18):
not best for the character. And to be able to
bring something to that like that to the table, they
should be on their knees thanking God that they got
an actor who cares so much and who is capable,
and instead they're just like, oh, yeah, but we want
to see you with no shirt on, Like where's your nipples?

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Man?

Speaker 5 (14:36):
Yes, last your nips? Why you share your tragedy, bro?
But in terms of is it weird, it's still very
weird because I will say this One Tree Hill obviously
professionally was a great experience for me, but personally was
a terrible experience for me because I came into this
show at a time in my life when I was
just struggling. My mental health wasn't great and I had

(14:58):
no toolkit on how to with it, and so for
the three years I was on the show was actually
a really painful, kind of lonely dark time for me.
So when we wrapped, I was very comfortable shutting the
door on the show and never looking back. And then
what happened was shortly after this, I started to get

(15:18):
into therapy, I start to really kind of grow and
do the work, and then conventions start happening, And it
was this weird thing because at first, I I mean,
when I finished the show, I told my team for
two years, don't even submit me for jobs in Wilmington,
like that's there was so many ghosts for me there.
I did not want to go back. And then the

(15:39):
conventions happened. Initially it was I don't want to have
to go and pretend like I want to talk about
this because I just still there was just so much
bad jeje because it wasn't the show's fault. It was
just you know how it is when you're going through
a tough season. Whatever the backdrop is, it sort of
it carries over, it gets projected onto that. But then
we started having these conventions, right and I started to

(16:00):
sort of get to have a second experience with the show,
and I got to meet all of you. It's sort
of like we all got to re meet each other
because when I came on, you all had six years
of enduring this, and so we all sort of got
this like fresh fresh start where I got to really
have a new experience with the show. Which is why
I'm so grateful for those conventions, because now I have

(16:23):
relationships with all of you, I have a new experience
with the show. I went back to Willmingchin the first time.
I was so anxious because again I really there was
so much baggage and pains for me there. I didn't
know how it would be, and it was great. And
now we're doing this show and it's so funny because
I'm able to sort of go, Okay, all right, I'm

(16:44):
ready for this, let's do it, you know, and is
it weird? Yeah, But I'm also so excited to do
it because I don't remember a lot of it. I
also watched it. My first note is, oh my god,
we were so young.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
Boy, isn't it crazy?

Speaker 5 (16:57):
We were? I know, And I also lasts I was,
And I wanted to ask you about this for when
you first started the podcast, not now, but I was
curious and this let's circle back to. My question for
you is when you when you first revisited this, did
you have an emotional reaction in your body when you

(17:18):
hear the theme song? Because if I'm at a convention,
it's fine because I'm excited. There's a lot of energy.
It's just sort of background noise. If it catches me
when I'm not ready.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
For it in the grocery store.

Speaker 5 (17:30):
In the grocery store, it's I get tight. My body
kind of goes oh. So on this episode, I thought,
oh god, how is that gonna go? And it was
beautiful because it didn't happen. It was joy singing instead
that beautiful song. It quicksand and I thought, oh, look
at that. They gave me a freebie my first episode.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah, ease your way in.

Speaker 4 (18:04):
For me, It's like it's the same feeling as when
like a person jumps out and yells boo at you
and you're like la, and then you're like, god, the
what are you doing? Like it's that feeling for me
when I hear it out in the world, I'm like,
what is that? Why would you do that? No one's
doing this, It's just happening, okay, Like it's so jarring

(18:25):
and then also embarrassing that it's jarring. But there is
a really interesting thing, like exactly what you're saying that
the amount of distance we got to have in between
the thing ending when we all were like, let's wash
our hands of it, goodbye, and then the conventions that

(18:45):
I think all of us were sort of hesitant to
do it first, and then we started going and then
we started going together, and then it was like wait.
In a way, it is like it's like group therapy.
It's sort of like going back to camp or something.
And yeah, now it's a really interesting thing to go. Oh,
I guess, I guess the only way out is through.

(19:07):
And like what we have talked a lot about in
the first six seasons of rewatching the show, and I'm
really curious if it'll feel this way for you, is
that in a way we got to take everything that
was really bad and I appreciate you being like, it's
not the show's fault, Like some of it is the
show's fault, and some of it is that life is hard,
and some of what's the show's fault is that they

(19:29):
took really hard in everyone's lives and then put it
on TV and made us act it out in front
of everyone, like it wasn't happening in our real lives.
That is super sadistic and picked up, But like this
rewatch for us gals enabled us to kind of separate,
like when you sort your garbage and your recycling, and

(19:49):
like I feel like we've been able to throw the
trash out and then keep the good stuff and before
it was like the bags were just all jumbled together.
And there is some about this I think very similarly
to when you go to therapy and you start processing
through your stuff and you learn to hold yourself more
accountable but also be more gentle with yourself at the

(20:10):
same time. Like the separateness is I think the sign
of growth. And you're right, like it's a testament to
the fans that have kept us going back to Wilmington,
because that is what enabled us to realize we wanted
to do this and then I didn't even realize we
needed this, but now we're doing it, and it's like, whoa.

(20:33):
I feel like I've done so much therapy by doing
this podcast, and also like I've gone to summer camp
every week with my friends, Like how cool. So I'm
excited for this.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
That's sort of the journey for analogy, right, doesn't it
feel like that? Yeah, the garbage and the recycling, it's
really good because I do that when I hear the
theme song, especially in the grocery store. It's all I
hated in the grocery store because I need a place
to hide, and you can at hideywhere there's no corners
in the grocery store or nothing to tucker. I immediately
look for a place to hide when I hear that song.

(21:07):
But then there's another part of me that immediately wants
to turn around and gather everyone in the store and
have a big party and be like, hey, guys, like,
let's party for a second. This is my song, come on, y'all,
Because it's there's become this separateness where it's I still
feel all the garbage, but I still also feel all
the good stuff, the things that we turned into good
things and amazing things that happened. So yeah, I love

(21:30):
that separating the trash and the recycling.

Speaker 5 (21:34):
Yeah, and it feels like with the conventions, with this podcast,
it's great because it sort of feels like that whole
experience is being reminded for all of just the joy
and the love. Yes, yeah, it's acknowledging the really shy
stuff that happened. But then really it's focused and what
it's there to cultivate and celebrate is the joy and

(21:54):
the love. That's why the conventions are great, right, is
because it's just the love fest. It's just people going
that was It's great? That thing you did? I love it,
and that's going, oh my gosh, that's so awesome. What's up?
Want to you know what I mean, it's yeah, yeah,
So it's nice getting to have a second experience with it.
I've been so grateful for because had none of us existed,
I think it would have just stayed the tough chapter.

(22:17):
Is that I just sort of left back there, you know.

Speaker 4 (22:20):
Yeah. Well I love moving forward into good space and
I love I do. I just I love the scene
in the first scene with you in the office with
the ball, like it's I know, we talked about it
last week. I know I brought it up earlier, but
it really it establishes you in such a cool way. Yeah,

(22:42):
and it just makes me get who this guy is.
And one of the things that was really interesting for
me to watch, particularly because we talked with Hillary about
how you and her have such similar energy and how
you can you can see that in like Clay comes
in in this way that feels peyton esque. But also

(23:07):
the thing that blew my mind rewatching this episode was
seeing how Clay does a Peyton and Quinn does a Lucas.
But there's also this wild mirroring in the Peyton and
Lucas love story and the Clay and Quinn love story,
Like this boy falls for this girl who everyone tells
him is unavailable to him, who's in another relationship, who's

(23:28):
an artist, and he's pining. And I was like, wait,
wait a second, because like, Chantelle is Chad in certain
ways and you are Hillary in certain ways, And that
I think is why it does work so well because
it didn't quote replace. It wasn't like they were trying
to replace characters. They were working with archetypes that worked.

(23:50):
But I'd never noticed the similarity of like the first
pining after her moment before. I didn't catch it when
season seven was happening because I was like trying to
get to know these new characters on our show and
you guys, but watching you sit with Haley and Nathan
on the steps at Jamie's birthday party once it's night
time and everyone's playing football, I was like, Oh my god,

(24:12):
this is like Lucas watching Peyton draw, Like what's happening?

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Wow?

Speaker 4 (24:17):
And I never caught it before, and it felt like
a really cool little easter egg, like for our fans
and for this legacy of these Tree Hill love stories.
I was like, Oh, they told us from the beginning
that those two were going to end up together. Got
it yecause I didn't see it until I saw it.

Speaker 5 (24:33):
Yeah, he calls his shot in a great way. I
think one this episode excelled in a big way when
it came to introducing characters. Yes, I agree that the
cause last week's episode I talked about the initial scene
with Clay was me just standing in front of two
hundred people in an auditorium, just talking, and luckily they
were wise enough to realize that was very boring and

(24:55):
not effective. But so Clay's intro was great because it
really tells you clear picture of who he is. Quinn's
intro scene was so good, so incredibly charming. Chantel played
the hell out of that. It was so good. And
then India's intro.

Speaker 4 (25:13):
Oh my gosh, oh yeah that was fun.

Speaker 5 (25:15):
She crushed that. Yeah, I don't want to get ahead
of myself, but she has maybe the line of the
episode when Enjoy you come in, You're like, oh, yes, sorry,
I've just been busy of the career. And then the
parenting stuff and she goes, oh, yeah, we lost Peyton
to one of those and you go sorry, and she
goes kids family.

Speaker 4 (25:35):
I got it was so good, so good, so so good.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
And I loved Chantelle's intro too because all the still photographs,
it really caught my eye. Was something so different than
what we've ever seen on the show before. So taking
the time to watch her take those photos and see
all the different environments, it was just a little a
little clue to the audience to let it know we're

(26:00):
entering into new territory and it's okay, we've got you.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
And I loved that they gave us moments with these
images of someone's artwork, but it didn't feel like they
were having another girl who draws come in, like we
spent six seasons close up on Peyton's drawings. Yes, and
it was really nice to get these close up freeze

(26:24):
frames on imagery but have them be photographs instead, because again,
it was really wise. I thought it was a smart
way to thread the needle where it was. It was
giving us something familiar and yet completely new. Yeah, I
thought it was a really really good choice. And I
loved that they were also making very clear that there

(26:44):
had been a big time jump because it was the
end of the first NBA season. Jamie had Nathan's Bobcats card.
We see that, you know, Brooke and Julian have been
in this long distance relationship. We cut to New York
and Millie is now Brooke Davis two point zero running
that office, you know, just crushing it. Lisa was so

(27:05):
perfect in that scene, bapap bah blah blah ba bock
giving orders talking about coffee green is the new orange.

Speaker 5 (27:10):
Like the whole thing.

Speaker 4 (27:12):
Was just so yummy, and it to your point, Rob,
They introduced and also reintroduced people really well because they said, oh,
everyone's in a new life stage. Whether you know them
or not, and they made it clear who all these
people were in really artful ways.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
I thought, Yeah, I mean, you got such a great
the upgrade of familiarity but something new, being able to
watch Brooke and Juliet and you guys were in from
Here to Eternity the whole show, the two of you
in the sand, at the beach, at the red carpet.

Speaker 5 (27:49):
I mean, how much.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
Fun did you have shooting all that stuff?

Speaker 3 (27:52):
It was the best montage of the whole series.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
I mean, it was really fun. I do remember we
had to go all the way, I want to say
it was like a random part of Carolina Beach. We
had to go to to film the beach scenes because
they that day sequence, because they needed a really steep
like beach, like the sand had to be at such
an angle to get the waves crashing because it wasn't

(28:15):
working at Wrightsville, So we had to drive really really far,
and then they kept moving us around because the tide
obviously is like shifting, and they just they wanted that
big wave crash. You know. Clark Mathis, who directed Who's
So Lovely, really wanted to get the scene right because
it was supposed to look like that old timey movie.

(28:36):
And by the end of it, I was cracking up
when they do the pan up our bodies because you
can see, if you really like freeze frame, how much
sand is even like stuck in the divits of like
my spine and my back we were, I mean, we
had just gotten tossed around like it. It looked so romantic,

(28:56):
and I remember by the end of that feeling like
a drown rat and just being like, there is so
much sand everywhere. I need to take a shower, Please
let me go home. And yeah, it was just, oh boy,
it was wild.

Speaker 5 (29:10):
My note on that scene was beautiful to watch. Miserable
to shoot.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
Uh huh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (29:17):
Because you're cold, you're getting watched. Trying to kiss romantically
while you're getting water splashed in your face is so
bad and old.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
James and I had to do a lot of that,
a lot of kissing in rain and water, and it's
just it is miserable.

Speaker 4 (29:33):
And it's not great either to like have to shoot
at the beach as an actor, because again, the world
assumes we're the most comfortable, confident people. But you know,
as a woman, like you're in a bikini, you're essentially
in your underwear and there's like two hundred people on
the beach just taking your picture, and I'm like, could
you maybe not take my picture while I'm standing here

(29:55):
essentially in my underwear, Like I don't consent to this.
I feel so uncomfortable and you can't really stand up
for yourself because yeah, it's a public beach, and you know,
we didn't work for people who were willing to like
put up privacy screens for us, and so I was
like cool. I was like, this all makes me feel
so uncomfortable. But it still looked so beautiful.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
The glamour, the romance and all of it. Ah, in
the edit, it's so glamorous.

Speaker 5 (30:25):
Brook and Julian. The whole episode was just my wall
to wall gorgeous romance.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
I loved it. Those night scenes on the.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
Beach, Oh yeah, the fire.

Speaker 5 (30:35):
My only issue with the night scene on the beach
was this when he goes, do you know what I want?
And he whispers in your ear this skinny dip. I
just thought, there's no way in a cold night that
the thing you want to do is go get into
the cold water with her and then be sandy like
the crudgeon adult and he went, you guys have houses,
why is it did you want to go in the

(30:56):
sandy cold water?

Speaker 4 (30:57):
Right now, here's what I will say in Julian's defense.
It was July in North Carolina, so it was like
one hundred degrees at night, So if that helps your
inner curmudgeon, it was not cold when we shot this.
It wasn't one of those like spring bread episodes that
we shoot in February and we're all sobbing because it's
thirty degrees out. It actually was quite warm. But I

(31:21):
just want to shout out. And our friends at home
have heard his name a lot. Peter Kowalski, our DP.
The way he lit. Yeah, those nighttime scenes for Austin
and I on the beach with that bonfire light on
our faces that made all everything behind us go really blue.
It was really it was like breathtakingly beautiful to me

(31:44):
as a viewer to look at. I was like, oh,
I feel like I can like I can smell the
saltwater and I know it's warm, and I know what
that balmy breeze is. I got a sense of where
we were from the light temperature, and like that that's
takes out.

Speaker 5 (32:00):
He's amazing you both every scene though, it was funny
because I had a one going my friends are super beautiful,
like you guys in the limo. You got the smoky eye.
He's in the talks and you're in your chemistry, but
the two of your chemistry is just so easy and fantastic. Yeah,
but every scene you were in it was like a

(32:20):
vanity poster of just like how good it could love
could be. It was just it was beautiful and idyllic.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
It. I sort of feel like they really wanted to
give that to Brook at this point too, because she
really went through the ringer for the first six seasons,
and I think they were like, you know what, we've
really had this chick on like tumble dry, you know,
for long enough. Let's just let her have her like happy,
you know, happy ever after moment. It was very sweet.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
I think the show needed it too. It needed the relief,
like we've got all this stuff coming up with Nathan
and Haley and all that tension that's going to start,
and all of the unpreduing to bowl things with Dan
that are coming up, and the comic relief with Mouth
and Skills, which talk about.

Speaker 5 (33:07):
So good.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
But yeah, we needed we needed the romance. It has to.
It's an integral part of our show, and you guys
were able to show up for that, which I loved.

Speaker 5 (33:15):
And also it was it was very smart because it's
a very quick, almost throwaway moment, but in no ways
that actually throw a moment when we're panning off of
you and you're talking to him, when you're standing up
with the ocean at your back and he's sitting on
the beach and you're like, I made some space in
the guest closet. And then when you walk over after
he talks about the movie and we see in the
sand that you had written marry me, it's that payoff

(33:40):
is so much greater when we've seen this whole episode
so far, just how good it could be. Yeah, it
makes sense why you'd ask and be It makes the
oh moment that that might hit that much harder.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
Okay, mouth and skills, Oh.

Speaker 4 (33:54):
My god, apparently our other favorite couple in this show,
those two. Like the naked off is so good and
so funny, and the facts that it begins from the
cut from Nathan's Axe body spray commercial, which to mouth
using the body spray. Yeah, Like, it's just it's so

(34:17):
funny because it's how good it could be on TV
with like the NBA player, and then you know it's
like the dude at home trying to figure it out
on his like you know, secondhand leather couch, and and
the fact that they just go tip for tat is
so they're just so good together. I just want them forever. Yeah,
I'm die good to know the rumors aren't true. Slam

(34:39):
like perfect her delivery.

Speaker 5 (34:42):
So first of all, I thought the choice to have
Mouth eating a sandwich. I laughed so hard because when
you think of being naked, probably one of the few
things you ever want to be doing is eating a
messy sandwich, you know. So I love that choice. But
when Lisa walks in her delivery on okay Okay is

(35:03):
so funny. Her timing is perfect, and I could have
watched a whole Buddy movie with Antoine and Mouth doing this.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
It was so where is that I need that movie asap?

Speaker 4 (35:13):
I agree, I need so much more of them. And
I also I love again there is so much larger
than life stuff on our show, which is look, it's
a TV show. It's why things work. Like we want
to aspire, we want to fantasize with people. But I
love the rootedness of these two best friends who live
together that are trying to figure it out, and they

(35:36):
both want to get more serious with their girlfriends, and
one of them has to be like, yeah, I'd love
to move out, but I can't afford it, which is
real life in your twenties, Like my best friend's from
college and I in our twenties. Ps. While I was
on our show, like I chipped in for keys to
a two bedroom apartment in New York and would like

(35:57):
fly up for the weekend and sleep on the couch,
Like none of us could afford anything more than we
made it work. And I just I love the comedy
in it, but I also like that they keep us
grounded because you know, the other scenes are, yeah, we're
with like the fancy sports agent and the nat geophotographer
at the NBA player and the rock star wife's kid's birthday,

(36:20):
Like everything is so fantastical that I don't know. I
just love like the cute buddies in their apartment.

Speaker 5 (36:27):
And they're sweet to each other. I love I love it.
I love a dude who's emotionally available, and I like
that the silliness of that scene ends with mouth going, hey, dude,
I love you. I still we're still friends. I still
want to hang with you. I'm just trying to sort
of level up my game here. You know that was
nice that it wasn't just a bit and then a
joke and the scene's over.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
Yeah. Yeah, I like healthy, vulnerable, safe masculinity. It's like,
it's not that hard.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
Look at these two.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
They're great.

Speaker 5 (37:08):
Jamie's birthday party. There's two things I noticed that cracked
me up. The first is it's a close shot on
your face, Joy as you're getting ready outside, right and
it hasn't revealed the party yet, and you hear Jamie
off screen say like mom, and you have a moment
like you're nervous on what is reactions going to be.
You're like, okay, here we go, Okay, come on out.

(37:30):
And the camera pans around to what looks more like
a small county fair than a seven year old's birthday party.
And I laughed, like, what would you be nervous about
when you have that production.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
They are living in like this new palatial whatever this
new house is with this massive pool.

Speaker 6 (37:51):
This is the first time at this house, right, yes, yes, Okay, absolutely,
this is a new house Clay has been turning up
for Nathan, getting him lots of commercials apparently, and Nathan
is I mean, I don't know what Hayley's doing, because
I don't think she's certainly not paying for that house
on a teacher salary, and she's trying to run the

(38:12):
label now, but.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
I don't know if that's working well apparently, given what
is going on. But they got this killer spot, this
killer new pad, magical yard. They've got a dock that
runs out to the river. It's wonderful.

Speaker 5 (38:30):
There's also a bit in that party where and I
actually remember doing this when it's a walk and talk.
It's actually the scene where Clay and Quinn meet the
first time, where she walks up and has that hilarious
little shot at him about getting Nathan his money. But
a trey walks by with cookies. I think, why it's
I think myself and you and James are talking joy

(38:50):
and I grab a cookie off of it and I
take a bite, and we're talking, and I think, I
take the whole tray, and then about thirty seconds later,
a server walk up and I hand them the tray
and then put the cookie. I just took a bite
of took a head right back in with the rest
of the cookies.

Speaker 4 (39:09):
No, you do not.

Speaker 5 (39:11):
Clay Evans the original Double Dipper. How gross is that
I missed that? I think I thought it was funny
and that no one. I just I remember just doing it,
going like, I wonder if they'll even notice this, this
will even get in there, And then I watched it, going,
that's so disgusting and funny.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
No, but they didn't notice. That's a thing.

Speaker 5 (39:29):
They were.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
They were, Oh man, that's so good. And that makes
me want to start really watching your performances from now
on because I I know that side of you that
like But also this is this is you and Hillary.

Speaker 4 (39:42):
You are the same. You two in the party are
like m hahaha, waiting for one of us to look
and catch you.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
Sitting around all day in my trailer, waiting to be shot.
Because there's twenty five other people in this scene. I'm
so bored. I'm gonna steal cookies and see if anybody
notices it.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
So funny.

Speaker 5 (40:01):
I thought your stuff with Chantell was fantastic.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Joy.

Speaker 5 (40:04):
You guys have such an ease and a natural chemistry. Yeah,
it was.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
It was always really easy to work with Chantal. I mean,
she and I we always got on really well. It
felt like it felt like sisters right away, and there
was just nothing. It never felt competitive, it never felt
like we were always just very We had great conversations.

(40:30):
She was lovely and professional and easy to work with,
and we had fun.

Speaker 4 (40:36):
Yeah. It's also really nice seeing Haley get that chemistry
with Quinn, because so much of the Haley and Taylor
relationship was so combative. Yeah, and it's nice to be
adults and see women enjoy each other, you know. It
was so nice for us in these later seasons, like

(41:00):
to get Lisa and then when Chantal came and then
you know, Jana's coming, and it was like everyone was
just so sweet. Like I remember in the first couple
weeks of this year all of us being at dinner
being like, wow, yeah, how cool, like because you never know,
and it's cool to see it now and like, watch
you guys, because there is there is like an on

(41:22):
screen chemistry that does already feel very familiar between the
two of you, and I think without that, it wouldn't
have sold for us as an audience.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
So well, you know, yeah, oh good, Yeah, I think,
you know what you were saying about the women coming
on the show and everything, it was like we were
so far down the line by then. I wonder if
the powers that be that we're trying to, you know,
pit us against each other in the beginning and just
working so hard over time to triangulate that they had

(41:53):
sort of given up by then because it was so
like their damage had been done and it was just
like they were able to now it didn't matter so much.
There were more of us, and so maybe they were
less worried about us all banding together to negotiating as
a team and things like that. So I wonder if
that's why it was so much easier at this stage

(42:15):
in the show for all of us to just kind
of be friendly and get along and not feel competitive
because there wasn't this behind the scenes like mess happening.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
I mean, I love that positive take. I wish it
had lasted longer than just the beginning of season seven
with the Powers that be, but you know, they didn't
give us long. But I will say at least there
was like this lovely moment, and I think Jamie's party
felt like that, like it was so nice to have

(42:46):
you guys as like our new compadres there. I thought
the characters were introduced in such great ways, and everyone
had such great chemistry together and even you know, even
the fact that when everyone gathers around for Jamie to
open his gifts and you've got this hilarious moment of
skills giving him his quote vintage CD collection and Miss

(43:09):
Mouran's ribbon him and then you you like, come in
with the you know, with the big dick energy, and
you get like Jerry Rice to walk in the door
is going on here? Like the whole thing it felt
on screen like that feeling you're describing, I think joy,
Like we all went, oh my god, this feels really good.
We are going to be okay because two of our

(43:31):
friends had left, like we didn't know what was going
to happen, and it felt very rife with potential. And
I loved that and I loved I have no idea
who at the studio pulled a favor to get Jerry
Rice on our show, but it was like, honestly so iconic.
His cameo was so good.

Speaker 5 (43:51):
Yeah, full disclosure, I had forgotten. So when that happened,
I went, oh, I guess I met Jerry Rice, and
then I remember, then, remember the day. But one thing
I think the episode did very well was that there
was also still enough connective tissue to Lucas and Peyton
to where it didn't feel like they were just pretending
that that was just over and gone. Like I love

(44:12):
Lucas gifting Jamie the basketball. I love when Nathan and
Jamie go to the court they play a game of
Lucas instead of a game. Of course, Brooke is talking
about Peyton a lot.

Speaker 4 (44:21):
So she's the one who left.

Speaker 5 (44:23):
Yes, yes, so it was the right amount of here
are new people, but also we're still they're still in
our orbit the people that left.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
Yeah, they did a great job of just letting us
know that we've got you, like we know why you're here.
Don't worry, We've got your audience, and stay with us.

Speaker 4 (44:39):
And I appreciate that they were thoughtful enough to think
about how to allow those shifts to inform our characters,
like for me, you know, I also forgot about Jerry Rice,
to be clear, but I you know, Brooke didn't make
the joke Clay did. I forgot that Brooke got really
vulnerable in this episode with Julian because he's away working

(45:03):
and Peyton's gone. For Brooke Davis to look up at
that man and say, I'm really lonely because her partner
is long distance and her best friend doesn't live at
home anymore. It makes a really interesting argument when they're
in the limo and he says, you can run your
company from anywhere, why do you need to stay here?

(45:24):
And for her, tree Hill is home. Tree Hill is home,
but it's starting to change. And I liked in that
moment it sort of made my like, you know when
you have that beat right before you cry and your
breath like catches your throat. I was watching the episode
and I was like, I'm just so lonely, and I
was like, oh my god, because I forgot that. In
that moment, Brook sort of got to be the audience's

(45:47):
voice and be like, I don't know if I understand
what's happening here, but by the end, it's like we're
going to be okay, like we were here and we're
building like a new you know, future family, et cetera.
It felt nice, like I did to your point, Joy,
I feel like they were trying to say we've got

(46:08):
you guys.

Speaker 5 (46:08):
Yeah, I agree, and that Jerry Rice. Bit I thought,
was I agree with you? That was so successful because
the scene that killed me was when they're playing again,
another really terrific Quinn scene, but when they're in the huddle,
you know, and this is when Nathan and Clay and
Hayley are watching from the steps and yeah, and Quinn says,
all right, we have the great greatest wide receiver in

(46:30):
the history of the game. Jamie, We're going to you.
And if you watch, you have to watch Jamie does.
He has such a beautiful moment where he does a
fifth pump, but he also kind of like nods his
head like you're making the right call, going to me, yes,
And it left Jerry going, what am I going to do?
And she goes block and he says three hundred and

(46:50):
seven touchdowns and they got me blocking, darn it. It
was like, oh, Jerry Rice, you are infinitely lowble.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
Really fun, yes, really fun.

Speaker 4 (46:59):
And you never know, you know, somebody like that comes
in and does a cameo and you're like, oh boy,
are they going to be great or are they going
to be very wooden? And Jerry Rice turns out is
a great actor. Like I'm like, sir, can you can
you like, come and play with us some more. What
I'd love I have to say because I'm looking at
my notes one of the things I'm obsessed with. And
we've circled back to the dynamic of Clay essentially like pining,

(47:23):
you know, after the unavailable woman, which I love. The
thing that makes me giggle, you know, with our team
of most female writers, is that they leaned so hard
into like the classic joke of like she knows sports
like hat Jake who knows sports sports, And it works
so beautifully between you guys, between Clay and Quinn. And

(47:45):
if it had just been the joke where like she
ran up to you at the beginning and said the
thing about Nathan and all the stats and walked away,
you'd be like, okay. But then to see her out
like playing football with all the boys, and when Jerry
and Skills are running all the kids around, and then
you realize everybody else is involved, Like it took it
a step further. It gave Clay like something very real

(48:08):
to watch and you get to see, you know, to
the point of introducing these characters, well, you get to
see Quinn's relationship with Jamie as his aunt. You really
get to see this family and knowing what comes, watching
you kind of pine after her with Haley and Nathan
on the stairs, I was like, Oh, it's gonna get
weird because you've already told Nathan that the hot Hicks

(48:31):
coming over tonight. You know it's it's It just was
set up so well, and I loved it.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
Speaking of this party, I have to say there's one
thing on this show that really it's funny when things
pop up that date us that when you watch it,
you're like, oh, this is so well. No, it's just
and I don't know if you guys even know this,
but kid's birthday parties. Nobody opens presents at the party anymore.
This is like a new wave thing where the kids

(48:58):
all you just set the gift on a table and
then you the kid opens them at home later on
their own time. But I remember every birthday party there
was like a time for presents. You sat down and everybody, right, yeah,
don't you remember this. You have sit down, you'd open
your gifts from everybody, you'd thank everyone there in person,
and then that was like an event within every single

(49:21):
birthday party. And it doesn't happen anymore. And it was
really funny because I saw I saw all that huge
gift of table of gifts, and I watched Jamie walk
over and start to open. I was like, oh my god,
that's right. We don't do this anymore. It doesn't happen.
It's so sad.

Speaker 4 (49:35):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Yeah, I mean meaningless in the context of the story,
but I thought, no, but kind of interesting.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Right.

Speaker 4 (49:41):
It's like when you go back and you watch the
early seasons and everyone's opening their flip phones and you're like, oh.

Speaker 3 (49:46):
God, yeah, totally so funny.

Speaker 5 (49:49):
It was also a little strange to me that and
I get why it can work, but that a totally
random woman dressed like she's going to a club up
next to James.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
It was weird, and.

Speaker 5 (50:02):
Talks about his career, asks for a selfie. It was
I get it, though, like when it's a party, it's crazy.
As a parent, you have a thousand different things going on,
so yeah, I will allow it. But it was one
of those moments where I just thought, really, really, this
strange woman, you know.

Speaker 4 (50:21):
Yeah, for me what helped was that there was a
crowd and he turned and then turned back, and I
was like, I could buy that. She's one of the
elementary school moms that he just doesn't know because he's
also been on the road all season.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:38):
But what was more alarming for me was like, how
did she get there? Because these these two, to your point, Joy,
they live in this big new house, which I would
assume if he's in the NBA, is like in some
sort of gated community. I'm like, did she take a
canoe up the intracoastal and like come in from the river.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
This is crazy enough to do that, I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (50:57):
I mean, honestly, she might have.

Speaker 5 (50:59):
That was the one thing I didn't bump on, because
when we panned around the party to see the scope
of it, you saw that their backyard kind of just
opens up to beach.

Speaker 4 (51:07):
That's true.

Speaker 5 (51:08):
I thought, it's not hard to find out where someone lives.
If that's the case, I could see her just walking
up to the beach and it's crowded party. Yeah, but yeah,
it was you knew the second that started happening. Oh yeah,
stranger danger.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
I don't remember what happens. I'm really like, this is
a wun No, No, I do not remember.

Speaker 4 (51:30):
Oh my god, I do. Because when the episode starts,
by the way, wait a second, we didn't even talk
about the fact that the episode opens on Dan Scott's
talk show, Oh my god, Clock the.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Clock, and.

Speaker 4 (51:43):
When I saw that woman and I remember, And then
it cuts back to Dan and his talk show is
called Redemption, and he's talking about how what you've done
is not who you will be, it's who you've been.
But now I was like, oh my god, oh my god,
oh my god, oh my god, I remember everything. I'm
so excited for you to see what happens. I sure,
I sure do.

Speaker 5 (52:03):
That whole thing with Dan was so effective, it was
I was watching it. My note is just Paul is great.

Speaker 4 (52:10):
He's phenomenal, but it's.

Speaker 5 (52:11):
It's so funny to watch someone and be so engrossed
and also so badly want to punch him in the face. Yea,
Like he's so he's so smug and engaging at the
same time doing that whole that whole speech.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
Yep, that's it. That takes a special skill. This, you know,
this theme of forgiveness for Dan is really interesting. Like
I said, I don't I don't remember what happens, but
I suspect he's being super manipulative again, like as usual.
But it did make me curious. Jamie asks Nathan if

(52:46):
he's forgiven Dan honest ber yes, and I don't know why,
I just I went on a dive. It made me
curious about the origin of the word forgiveness, because we
talk about this with Dan a lot on the show.
The farthest back that I could find was a Hebrew
word called nassa. I wrote it down to It means
to lift up or lift off and remove, and in

(53:07):
Latin in the thirteen hundreds it means passing over of
an offense without punishment, which is essentially saying you deserve
punishment for what you've done. I choose not to enact it,
so I'm lifting up or off the burden of judgment
and my desire to see you suffer it. So when
Jamie asks Nathan if he's forgiven Dan, and you can

(53:27):
see this moment pass over James's face and it's so subtle,
but I've read it as Nathan realizing there's this fine
line between going cold and becoming immune and actual forgiveness,
and Nathan's it seems like he's realizing, Yeah, I've gone
cold to Dan. I put up a wall so I
don't feel bad emotions toward him anymore, but have I

(53:49):
actually forgiven and released him from punishment, released myself from
the desire to see him suffer consequences, which, considering everything
Dan's done, feels an impossibly tall order. It's like Nathan
knows it's too unfair to himself to just forgive and
say like I don't deserve justice, or too unfair to
the people who Dan's hurt to say they don't deserve justice.

(54:10):
It's too outrageous to forgive. So he's honest and he says, no,
I haven't. And I loved his honesty, and it really
made me think about my own life and wrestle with
like the big bads in my life, because yeah, I
want to think of myself as a forgiving person. But
you know, Jamie says, I think you're big enough to
forgive him. You're Nathan Scott, which is such a great line.

(54:31):
But it made me wonder if I've been actually truly
forgiving or if I've just been shutting off my emotions
and calling it forgiveness so that I can feel better
about myself. And is forgiveness something Dan should get, Like
what are you guys? Sorry, it's a long spiel, but like,
I have a lot of thoughts about this, and I
want to know what you guys think about the concept
of forgiveness and redemption for someone like Dan, all things considered.

Speaker 5 (54:54):
That first, that first definition you gave, I think it's
said to lift off. Yeah, so's really interesting take because
if you look at it like that, it's not about
you doing something for the other person. It's actually it's
an act of sort of self love or self care
to relieve yourself of a burden you've been caring.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
Yeah, yeah, because you're holding the judgment over someone. Right,
you're saying like, I'm I've decided you need to suffer this,
so to release it and like let it go.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
That's interesting. But ah, I hate Dan Scott.

Speaker 4 (55:27):
Well, here's the thing I think that look anger can
be so poisonous, Like, yeah, everyone always says you forgive
for you, not not for the other person. It's I
think it's why that phrase forgive but don't forget comes around.
The idea is that if you can really do it,
you can unburden yourself. Yeah, doesn't mean you erase a boundary,

(55:52):
doesn't mean you let that person back into your life,
like you know, it's it's certainly something I've had to
think about I think we all have. But like you know,
whether it's an injury, the you know, to everything twenty
years ago or last year, It's like, what's the point
in being angry at someone who betrays you? Then you're

(56:14):
just angry you were betrayed either way, if you can
see it, release it, fortify yourself against it. I think
that that's great. I don't think forgiveness has to be
like some big Kumbaya thing. And I think it's so
interesting to hear the way you read it, because when
I watched the scene between Nate, between Nathan and Jamie,

(56:39):
that moment for me, I sort of read as all
his complex adult man feelings and realizing he can't share
those with his seven year old son like a seven
year old can't process. Yeah, that, you know, did I
forgive him for ruining my birthday and making me play
in a peewee game. There's a lot more too it

(57:00):
than that. Yeah, And so you know, I love all
of it because in a way, it's the simplicity that
a child is seeing and the complexity that the adult
has experienced. And I loved the meeting of those experiences
on screen. And I think I think forgiveness is incredibly complex.

(57:23):
For that reason, I think we're all much more capable
of forgiving now at this age than we were ten
years ago, let alone twenty years ago. And I think
those things are important. Like there are people whose actions,
you know, a decade ago, would have still enraged me,

(57:43):
and now I just say, like, well, it must be
sad that you were in a place that that was
what you chose. I hope you're well. I'm certainly not
ever going to like let you back into my life,
but I'll wish you well. I'll like, I'll ask how
you're doing if I you out and about somewhere, And
that that, for me, feels more like the forgiven. Forgive

(58:05):
but don't forget.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
But what do you do with the with the knowing
that you've been wronged?

Speaker 5 (58:12):
Call Trevor?

Speaker 4 (58:16):
Yeah, for sure, I mean, I look, I think here's
what I will say is we've all been wronged, and
we've we all we all, by the way, we have
villains in our stories, right, and we're all the villain
in somebody else's story. Yeah, whether or not it's accurate,
like for sure, but but to other people, each of

(58:39):
us has probably done something unforgivable, absolutely, and we can
all sit and go well. Actually, the way it went
down was this, Yeah, okay, it's like at this point,
what for what?

Speaker 5 (58:52):
Like?

Speaker 4 (58:52):
What are we arguing it for? What are we fighting
over it for?

Speaker 5 (58:55):
Like?

Speaker 4 (58:55):
What are you going to do like publish your text
messages and emails, timestand and dated to prove that you
weren't the.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
One and the wrong for what?

Speaker 5 (59:04):
For?

Speaker 4 (59:04):
Freaking who?

Speaker 5 (59:05):
Like?

Speaker 2 (59:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (59:06):
Why for me? That's part of the the ability to
be a more boundaried and yet also more gentle adult
is to say, you know what, that's where my boundary is.
And I'm also going to wish you well because otherwise
otherwise the lack of quote forgiving poisons me, not you.

Speaker 5 (59:26):
Yeah, I see, I think I grew up with forgiveness
was I I want to help you feel better about
what you did, whereas now forgiveness is yeah, I'm dropping
the rock I've been caring. I'm going to let go
of the resentment because it's not serving me anymore, you know,
So it's no longer about helping you feel better because

(59:47):
it used to be a performative act of service, where
now it's just I don't want this to consume me
all day, every day. So it's just like you're saying,
it's forgiven and forget, you know, take it. Some play
is healthy, but it's it's no longer going to take up,
you know, bandwidth. Yeah, I will choose to not allow
it to take up the bandwidth, not that it doesn't

(01:00:08):
deserve too or doesn't want to.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know. I think about I
think about a character like Dan and how complex he
is and how much we like even what you're saying,
he's compelling, even though you want to punch him in
the face, and there's always this sense of like God,
I would love to see Dan Scott actually change his life,

(01:00:32):
actually be redeemed, actually become a better person, but nobody
would be willing. Nobody that in our showould be willing
to actually offer him the forgiveness that that requires.

Speaker 4 (01:00:44):
Yeah, but if I may, I think we have to
be really really careful about Like, frankly, I don't know
how else to put it, because I think there's a
lot of you know, this language that we hear that
comes from religious tradition, Like we have to be really
careful that we're not trying to play God that we're
not trying to prove how pure we are by our
ability to forgive anyone absolute Like yeah, and I think

(01:01:07):
that idea that like no one would be willing to
offer him true forgiveness, Like I don't know that that's
necessarily another human's job. At the end of the day,
I think, No, I agree, And I just think it's
frankly really important for us to be willing to accept
that other people's like boundaries and levels of tolerance for

(01:01:29):
certain things might not be what ours are and to
figure that out like person to person. Because one of
the things I've learned, you know, thrown it back to
Trevor excellent callback Rob, is like there are amazing things
that our jobs have given to us, you know, like
I'm incredibly proud of my work ethic, I'm incredibly proud

(01:01:50):
of how much I'll show up. But the way we
were taught to like show up in the hours we
were taught to work in the sleeplessness we were taught
to endure, or like kind of gnarly to sit with
a trained professional who's like, your threshold for suffering is
outsized and too high, and you need to readjust and
recalibrate because what you think of as neutral is bad,

(01:02:14):
and what you think of as bad is abusive and
what you and it's like, oh, so you know, yes,
because it's a story and we all love stories and
we love fairy tales and like we wouldn't be crazy
actors in the circus if we didn't do I ultimately
want to be like, wouldn't it be so cool? And
then I'm like yeah, or maybe people just have like

(01:02:35):
boundaries and don't want to suffer with this man who
murdered his brother who was their uncle. And I don't know,
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
I don't know that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
I think we have a unique ability as humans to
offer each other, like offer each other's radical wild space
to become better people. And sometimes that happens by someone
giving you an unreasonable amount of forgiveness. Yeah, And it
is a fine line between just shutting off my motions
and being like Nope, I'm just not going to allow

(01:03:04):
that person in my life anymore, or being recognizing like,
oh no, this is unhealthy for me. I'm not supposed
to be the person who's offering this for you know,
it's a case by case basis.

Speaker 4 (01:03:13):
I guess that's what I think it is because yeah,
you know, like one of the privileges of my life
has been sitting with inmates in like maximum security prisons,
working with the anti Recitivism Coalition, and I have wept
and been held by men who've done the most terrible

(01:03:33):
things who are also weeping. Like I've seen like redemption
and healing. Yeah, for people whose society has said like irredeemable,
lock them up and throw away the key. I will
call that one of the privileges of my life forever.
I don't know that the that the family members of
the people who they committed, you know, crimes against need

(01:03:56):
to do that job. And I think that that is
actually one of the like that has been such a
teacher for me about the value of really being willing
to create community care because we have our community, Like
I'm so grateful for our little bizarre circus family that
we built in Wilmington, And I think when you get

(01:04:18):
to lean on your communities, it's so important. But I
think sometimes we forget that community can come in all
of these new and unknown places, and like, sometimes you
need to build community with people you don't know at
all to uplift these certain parts of society, to take
off that vest to put down that rock, Like, I
think it's part of why I'm like really passionate about

(01:04:39):
the social framework and like social services honestly, because without them,
things fall apart, and without them, some of these people
do fall through the cracks. So it's like, I don't know,
does Haley need to be the person who forgives Dan Scott?
Maybe he needs to go to a men's group and
get hish together talking to people like Rob about going

(01:05:00):
to therapy.

Speaker 5 (01:05:01):
You know what I'm saying, you know, And you know,
I got to say, as a viewer, what I love
about it is that, first of all, I always want
to root for a comeback story, and Dan Scott has
the potential for the greatest comeback story. But I also
love that he already has developed a platform. We're seeing
he already has people buying his potential bullshit, and because

(01:05:26):
he has, we think, we believe he has the potential
for greatness, but we've also seen his capacity for evil.
It makes it this really uncomfortable tightrope of like all right,
you charlatan, Yeah, we've already got some people fooled. We're
here for the ride, but our guard is super duper up.

Speaker 4 (01:05:41):
It's like Shakespearean level drama. It's so yummy. Yes, But also,
now that we're talking about this joy, you've really made
me realize the fact that we never had to see
Dan and like group therapy with other inmates, I'm furious.
What a wasted opportunity.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
That's when he would have learned how to manipulate the
whole system.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
It would have been so cool, though, because they could
have made you think he was being redeemed and then
you'd be like, oh, look he took advantage of that guy,
and it would fuel exactly what Rob's talking about. It's
like war the Roses level. It's so good.

Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
It's so good, and.

Speaker 4 (01:06:14):
The generational opportunity for it too, Like if we think
about Shakespeare, we have loved you said it, We have
loved Nathan Scott's comeback. We have rooted for the comeback.
Don't call it a comeback, hey, c guess what it
is a comeback, like we are here for it. And
so I think that adds to like will we or
won't we? With Dan Scott and it's it's yummy.

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
I love it.

Speaker 5 (01:06:37):
It's like that great office meme of Michael Scott where
it's I'm ready to be hurt again in the day pool.
That's how I feel Dan Scott, where it's like, well,
I'm on the ride and I am ready to be
hurt again.

Speaker 4 (01:06:50):
Yeah, oh god, Yeah, somebody just hand me the fork.
I'll stab it in my own eye.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
I love talking about this stuff with you guys. Oh man,
Well it was a great episode. This will be fun
to do next week too. What do we have next?

Speaker 4 (01:07:14):
Well, we have a listener question.

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
Yeah, Michelle says my questions for someone who has never
been to Wilmington before, describe the town in three words. Oh, humid,
that's my word. Everybody gets a word.

Speaker 4 (01:07:30):
It's gonna say warm, but like, you know, temperature and
emotionally warm.

Speaker 5 (01:07:35):
I was gonna say cozy. That was going to be
my other word.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):
I was like warm, cozy, warm, cozy.

Speaker 5 (01:07:41):
And I have to say having gone back with new eyes, Yeah, idyllic.
It's beautiful, it's small, it's quaint, it's picturesque. You know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
All right, we're into five words now, Rob, I'm a
rule breaker.

Speaker 5 (01:07:56):
I'm I'm the bad drama queen. I don't follow the rules. Guys.
That was seven words.

Speaker 4 (01:08:01):
You're welcome, Nachelle. Let's spin a Wheel Kids, do it? Rob,
you read it? It's your very first wheel spin.

Speaker 5 (01:08:09):
Oh my goodness, most likely to win a dance contest. Well,
I don't want to, you know, get ahead of ourselves here,
but we get to see Clay do some dancing in
a future episode and it is not pretty. So I'm
going to go ahead and pull Clay's name out of
the running.

Speaker 4 (01:08:29):
I was going to jump from a character and go
straight into a cast me and say, hands down, Lee Norris. Yeah,
he's very good.

Speaker 3 (01:08:40):
Well mouth too, Yeah, honestly, you're not wrong. Mouth jumped
up on that on this Sparco classic and really save
the day.

Speaker 4 (01:08:48):
It's true. Okay, it's Lee all around.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
Oh.

Speaker 5 (01:08:51):
Also in real life, it would be oh, by my blanket,
Jamie's name, Jackson Jackson, thank you? Remember when Jackson we
were doing that panel or something and Jackson had like
the Green Man costume. Yeah, he just went out and
danced for about seven minutes straight. We're like, how much
energy does this kid have? Law? He can cut a rug?

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
He really can. All right, next episode, Kids will be
back next week. Season seven, episode two, What are you
willing to lose? Okay, that feels very on point for
the end of our discussion here about forgiveness. Let's see
what's what's coming next. Maybe there'll be a part two
to that as well. Thanks guyse Hey.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
Thanks for listening.

Speaker 4 (01:09:32):
Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also
follow us on Instagram at Drama Queen's ot or email
us at Drama Queens at iHeartRadio dot com. See you
next time.

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