November 12, 2025 • 57 mins
Malala Yousafzai was just 15 when the Taliban tried to silence her for demanding girls’ right to education — and instead made her one of the most powerful voices of her generation. Now 28, the Nobel Peace Prize winner reflects on the life behind the legend — the recovery, love story, and private doubts few have ever heard her share. Find out why Malala says real courage isn’t about surviving what happened to her but choosing how to live after it.
Malala's new memoir "Finding My Way" is available now at bookstore.org.
Learn more about the Malala fund here and Recess here.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to Work in Progress, Whipsmarties. Today we are joined
by someone I have been hoping to interview for so
(00:24):
many years. An activist that I look up to, a
leader who has shifted the conversation around women and girls
around the world, a woman who won the Nobel Peace
Prize at the age of seventeen, who also happens to
be a hell of a lot of fun, very funny,
and on her own journey of reclamation of her full self.
(00:47):
Today we're sitting down with Malala Yusefsi. She made the
world listen at just fifteen when under Taliban rule she
was blogging for the BBC about her life under occupation,
fighting for a right to education, and she was targeted
and shot. She survived an assassination attempt and refused to
(01:08):
be silenced, and since her voice has shaken governments, inspired millions,
and truly changed the conversation about girls' education worldwide. Now,
Malala is twenty eight, living in the UK with her husband,
and she's built a life that blends global advocacy and
personal growth. And I want to talk to her about
(01:32):
what her life is like away from the cameras and
the crowds, how she's begun to remind herself that she's
allowed to just be a girl. Sometimes she doesn't have
to be a saint, she doesn't always have to be
a leader, but she always will be someone that we
all look up to. Her new book, Finding My Way
(01:52):
is an absolutely gorgeous examination of this journey. She reveals
never before shared private struggle that have existed behind her
public courage, how she's grappled with survivor's guilt, how she's
navigated the pressures of global fame, and how she's still
trying to make a difference in a world that seems
(02:12):
more resistant to change, perhaps than ever in our lifetimes.
And while she may be one of the most incredible
figureheads we have for women in the world, like the
rest of us, she's just a girl trying to figure
it out one day at a time. Let's talk all
things with Malala. Well, hello, and thank you so much
(02:44):
for joining me on the show today.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
How is the book tour going.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I mean, it's a lot of work, but I'm so excited.
It's fun. Yeah, and I'm so excited to go to
different CITs in the US, UK, Europe and meet the
people who are going to enjoy reading this book.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, it's amazing. I've been thinking so much in advance
of today because I normally like to ask people when
we sit down together to begin, given anyone I sit
with is usually doing something incredible in the world. As
you are, you know, audiences will know you for your
body of work, your activism, who you are as an
(03:28):
adult in the world. And I always like to go
backwards with guests and find out about the through lines
and the connections to who they were in their youth.
You know, the traits they grew up with that maybe
tie to who they are today. And most often I
ask people to take me back to if they could
(03:51):
imagine rather an interaction with themselves at ten. But it
really sort of took me aback thinking about that for you,
because you were ten and when the Taliban took over
the Sa Sally in Pakistan, and just thinking about sitting
in a room with you, going, oh my god, what's
(04:12):
that going to be like for her? I wonder if
you'd rather go back to maybe your eight year old
self or your nine year old self, is there joy
when you think about your youth pre that shift that
you'd rather begin within.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
We went through a very tough time when the Taliban
took over. This was when I understood how valuable pieces
and how lucky those of us are who get the
opportunity to get an education and to follow our dreams,
because the Taliban denied all of that to women and
girls in my hometown. But I have treasured every moment
(04:56):
that I had with my friends, the moments I had
a in Swat Valley before the Taliban took over. We
were surrounded by beautiful mountains. We lived by the rivers,
and I loved being closer to nature. But you know,
even during the Taliban time, when we would secretly go
to school, hide our box and try to make sure
(05:16):
that the Taliban never caught us, we would treasure the laughter,
the giggles with friends. So it's still a memorable moment
for me when I think about girls having dreams and
still trying to learn even when scary men try to
stop them. And after we saw what life looks like
(05:39):
when you do not have peace, when you are hearing
bombings and attacks, you are internally displaced, you you lose
all of that is that after that, we treasure every
moment of peace, so we were just so grateful for it.
I do have memories, but of course, you know, I
sort of became an activist at a very young age,
(06:00):
so life did not feel like that of a normal
child that I was before. It did change significantly, but
I still try to have normal experiences as much as
I could.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
That's really special. It's interesting to think about for you
in that timeline because to your point, you have all
of the memories before. It wasn't like you were three
or four years old, so you didn't know what you'd lost.
Do you think at the time you were able to
reflect on pre and post takeover? Or was the fearful
(06:41):
adventure of continuing to pursue your education? Was that really
central to your world? And now as an adult, you
can look back and really see the contrast in the
pre and post takeover.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I you know, I remember the early days of growing
up in Swat Valley and my time with my two
younger brothers. We used to like fight all the time,
but we loved each other as well. I loved watching television.
I loved my studies. I was obsessed with school. Actually,
the girls in my hometown valued education because they knew
(07:17):
that it is rare to have a supportive father and
a supportive family that allow you to be in school.
So there are already many challenges that girls were facing
and access to education. But when we saw the most
extreme form of oppression against women where gun were armed.
Gunmen try to impose these rules on women that they
cannot have jobs, they cannot leave their homes, and girls
(07:40):
cannot go to school. That's when we realized that education
is such a powerful tool that the people who do
not want to see women empowered, they take education first
from women. So, you know, I remember the before time
that we had in Swa Valley and I and you know,
(08:02):
sometimes I wish like those days had lasted for a
lot longer. Now there is peace, you know, after like
two three years of terrorism, a military operation was done.
People returned to their homes after their displacement. But it's
still I feel like takes a while that it feels
like it still takes a while that you know, for
(08:24):
people to recover from from what had happened.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Of course, well, because the the trauma, it changes your
olympic system, your ability to walk outside in a care
free manner to look at the mountains or watch the
water in the river, to to feel a lightness of
being when it's taken from you. Yeah, I think it
(08:48):
takes so much longer to get back than the theft
takes to happen. Yeah, when you talk about knowing, you know,
if these men wanted so bad to steal women's empowerment
so badly that they would try to steal education from
girls as young as ten years old younger, were you
(09:10):
and your classmates while you were fighting to study in secret?
Were you talking about it in real time? Were your relatives,
your mothers, your aunties, like, were the women in your
life telling you why they were particularly so aggressive with
the women and girls.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yes, it was our normal day to day conversation to
talk about what new rules the Taliban are now announcing
restricting women from something else, And you know, people try
to make sense of it, but it just made no
sense because the Taliban would sometimes defend it as an
Islamic rule, but everybody said that, you know, we're already
(09:52):
an Islamic country, and in Islam, education is not only
a right, but it's actually a duty you are supposed
to learn, and it's an equal opportunity for both men
and women, So how can the Taliban be bringing their
own extreme patriarchal norms into this. So we were also
challenging them in misusing Islam. So yes, you know there
(10:15):
were people who were challenging it. But you know, the
Taliban were threatening people who spoke out against them. The
month of January two thousand and nine was very scary
because girls were not allowed to be in school. They
were bombing schools, and they were targeting people who spoke out.
So I was more worried about my father at the
time because I was only eleven years old. I did
(10:37):
not know that they would come and attack a girl
or a child. But I was more concerned about my
father because I knew that a lot of activists who
had spoken against the Taliban had been attacked. Every night,
I would pray for my father to be safe.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Of course, because his defending you put a target on
his back as well.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yes, and he was a very strong advocate for girls' education.
He spoke out for women, so you know, they see
men who become allies of women as a threat.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Of course, of course, because in a fundamentalist or violently
patriarchal culture, men who ally themselves with us are traders
to the patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yes, yes, one hundred percent, And it just reminds us
how powerful and important the role of men is to
help dismantle patriarchy. You know, I tell people that I
was able to speak out, be in front of a
camera and tell my story to the world because my
(11:39):
father did not stop me. He supported me in doing that.
So many other girls in my school, in my community
wanted to tell their story, but their brothers or their
fathers stop them. The men stopped them, and it's so
important for people to know that. You know, It's like,
oftentimes it's the men who clip the wings of their daughters,
(12:02):
of the things in their community. So oftentimes, you know,
my dad has asked what he did for his daughter,
and he says, don't ask me what I did, but
ask me what I did not do. I did not
clip her wings.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, I love your dad. It's really very cool. Yeah right,
I'm lucky to have such a cool dad. And I think,
you know, that's a big part of it, because obviously,
as women, we understand what our gendered issues are, and
if we're just talking to women about it, it's like
we're yelling in an echo chamber. We need men to
(12:36):
break through the issues with us. Yes, I wonder for
you. You know you mentioned that you had everything changed so early.
You know you wish you'd had more of those pre years,
a longer runway of normal childhood as it were, you know,
(12:57):
to go through what you went through, the fact that
by eleven you were an activist. You know, you were
blogging for the BBC. And I'm sure now you understand
the bravery that that took, both on your own part
and your father's part, certainly your family's part. Did you
know then, or as a young girl who loved school,
(13:21):
who was pissed someone was telling you you couldn't go,
did it just feel like the right outlet.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
It's a fair question that if you are experiencing such
a scary situation and you know that the Taliban could
target you, why would you speak out? But I always
remind people that I was more scared of a life
without an education. Yes, that future was dark, and I
had seen how so many girls had lost that opportunity.
(13:47):
I mean, you know, my life took a whole different trajectory,
so that you know, I could never imagine that I
would be like living in the UK and I would
be going to Oxford and all of that. My dream
was just to continue going to that local school that
the Taliban wanted to close. And so yeah, you know,
(14:09):
when when I finished my graduation at Oxford it was
in twenty twenty, I felt like I had won a battle,
that this was a personal victory. You know, I did
not need to make any announcement or anything, but I
took a moment with myself and I told myself, you
have won. You completed your education. This is what the
(14:31):
Taliban did not want to see. And you are living that.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Moment well and living it not only as someone who
escaped a system and who escaped a real vacuum of
violence in a time, but I mean you literally survived
an assassination attempt. Yes, that's not something most people go through,
let alone most fifteen year old girls. I know, that's
(14:53):
obviously a story You've had to reflect on a lot.
And the last thing I ever want to do is
to ask women to constantly relive their trauma for maybe
the five people living under a rock who don't know
about it. But one of the things that I'm fascinated
by is actually how we heal. Yes, and I've been
so moved by the way you've spoken about how there
(15:17):
was a time, you know where as the human brain
does your brain work to protect you and you couldn't
recall a lot. Yes, and you've worked on taking back
I would say, parts of those memories and being able
to move past them after this many years of doing
(15:40):
that sort of self work. How does it sit with
you now? How do you feel now? Are you are
you more desirous of saying I've spoken about it and
I'd like to move on, or are you in a
place where you feel like there are lessons you might
(16:00):
want to offer to other survivors of trauma.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah. I remember my last day of school in Pakistan.
I'm with my friends. I hope I can go to
school the next day, and then something happens like there's
there's just like too many memories, too many visuals, and
and it's it's just a very confusing time. But I
think about a week later, I wake up in a
hospital in a different country. I do not see a
(16:24):
single brown face. Everybody is speaking a different language. I
have a tube in my neck. I am processing what
had happened. I'm looking for for my family. I'm just like,
you know, who has brought me here? What happened. At
the time, I was just trying to process this adjustment
to a new culture, restarting a whole new life, and
(16:47):
I felt like I did not have any time that
I needed to recover quickly, and I healed through the
surgeries quickly as well. We were offered mental health support
as well. There was a therapist, but this was the
first time I was hearing about it. You know, in
Pakistan it's often associated with with like, you know, people
(17:11):
who like go crazy and and so I was like, oh,
you know, what do you mean therapy? I sort of
rolled my eyes and I did not get therapy at
the time. But seven years later, in college, that whole
shooting experience was triggered by a bong incident, and that
(17:34):
that night was the scariest night I had ever experienced
because I felt that I reallived it, that the memory,
the flashbacks, everything that I had suppressed in my memory,
or maybe that my brain had just to protect me.
I tried to, you know, I try to remember, but
I couldn't remember anything, and suddenly everything was right in
(17:54):
front of my eyes. That night, I froze I could
not do anything helpless, and as much as I tried,
I you know, I started getting so scared. I could
not even close my eyes because I thought if I
closed my eyes, I would die. And you know, I
(18:16):
felt that maybe maybe I remembered, maybe I had seen
what the Taliban did to me, and everything changed for
me since because I could not get myself out of
the trauma, I felt that it was something that was
left undone. It was an unfinished part of my recovery.
(18:36):
I always associated my recovery with the physical injuries, and
once a surgery was done, I said, I am fully recovered.
Everything is done. But this was that that open wound
that we did not that we did not heal. Yes,
so yeah, After months of panic attacks, anxiety, PTSD, I
(19:03):
finally started therapy. And it was only when a friend
of mine told me that I should see a therapist.
She could see that I was not being myself and
she told me that a lot of students get that,
and she herself sees a therapist. That gave me a
little comfort that I am not the only awkward one.
And I was hoping that maybe I'll get some medication
in the therapy. Right that here are my problems, prescribe
(19:26):
me something, fix it fast. Yes, yeah, they told me
this is going to be a process.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yes, that's incredible. And now for our sponsors. It is interesting,
isn't it. How stigma it really worms its way into
the way we feel about ourselves. And how lucky you
(19:54):
were in the moment that this horrible thing was happening
to you, that you had the great gift of friends
say no, we so many people go to therapy. We
need it, you know. Realizing that there's stigma about it
means that I talk about therapy on the podcast so much.
Everybody knows I'm obsessed with my therapist. He's like one
of my favorite people on the planet. And what I've realized,
(20:17):
I think, especially for women who love education, for women
who are activists, when you are a problem solver, you
often look out at the world and think, I'm going
to dedicate my time to this cause and these people,
and I'll show up at this thing and I'll lend
my voice to that thing over there. And it takes
someone saying you can also advocate for yourself. You can
(20:42):
also invest in yourself. You can also work through the
kind of critical thinking you've become an expert at for
your own well being. And I find it really interesting
how long it takes us to turn that sort of
love of the world world back on ourselves. Yeah, but
(21:02):
what an amazing thing that you got to begin to
do that.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yes, and now I embrace therapy as part of my journey.
Initially I was taking it as a one off treatment,
but I realized I need it. I need it more
because I you know, I thought I was like, Okay,
you know, I'm sort of done with it. But then
a few years later, I'm in South Africa and I
speak about the situation of women and girls in Afghanistan,
(21:29):
how the Taliban are restricting them from work and any
political and public presence, and girls are banned from education.
So when I spoke at the Nelson Mandela lecture, I
finished all my interviews, and you know, in the middle
of the night, I wake up from my sleep and
I am like shaking and shivering, and I thought I
(21:50):
was going to die. It was. It was a proper
panic attack. And my husband was there with me. He
supported me and was holding my hand. But I realized
that that that there is still so much that I
have left unaddressed. So I went back to my therapist.
And now I'm like, Okay, it's gonna stay with me.
(22:10):
I'm gonna keep seeing my therapist more regularly, and we
should normalize it. I think that's the most important thing.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I think, especially you know, we're at least here. You know,
I don't know how it feels to you in the UK,
but in the US we're so obsessed with physical fitness.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
That's also good.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Well sure, but for me, I'm like, if you go
to the gym, if you know you should go for
a walk after dinner to stabilize your blood sugar, your
brain needs a walk too. You know your brain needs
the gym. And so I try to reframe when I
speak about mental health. I try to reframe therapy as
as your brain gym or your mental health care. Yes,
(22:51):
you know it's healthcare.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
And I think even that for me has done something
where you know, Tuesdays at nine am, that's WoT and
I'm like, it's my it's my brain pill oates.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yes, you know, that's so helpful because I remember feeling
just guilty for simply wanting to take a break or
get a nap or go out for a walk, because
I thought when you are an activist, you're supposed to
give twenty four to seven or rather twenty five hours,
you know, like the extra time you can give to
(23:24):
to to the work, to the mission. And I would
you know, I was always tired and exhausted and I
was overwhelmed. And I think that's why these things like
anxiety and PTSD and panic attacks like started happening, because
it all piles up. It adds to it that, you know.
It was only when I got married that I started
(23:45):
considering like this, you know, rest time and sports and
just relaxing more seriously. So, yes, I do go to
the gym. I do weight lifting and all of that
and becoming a proper gym bro, which I love, or
a gym.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Sust okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
And I do try like new sports whatever that is.
I don't have to be perfect at it and uh
and of course I can never be good at it,
but I'm like, it's just about paying and enjoying the sport.
But more than that, it is giving myself some time
to rest and recharge myself because I would not be
able to deliver my best on the things that I
(24:27):
care about. Yes, if I do not look after myself.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Absolutely That's been such a lesson for me too. And
I think it is that that activists sort of motivation
or heart, where you think, I've got to give, give, give, give, give. Yes,
I'm so privileged in my relative life. Yeah, I've gotta
I've got to always be doubling down. And eventually I
(24:51):
realized between that and the way I've been cultured to
perform as a as an actor. And I've learned a
lot of this with my partner because of the way
she was cultured to perform as an athlete. When you
constantly think you have to be at the top of
your game, constantly have to give every moment to excellence
(25:12):
or community or the speech or the flight or the
book or the thing, you lose your sense of wonder.
And when you stop playing, you also stop reparenting that
inner child. To be able to give some play and
adventure back to yourself, especially in the way that it
was taken from you in your story, in your life,
(25:34):
it's so restorative for the soul. And we also our lives,
our careers. They're so serious. Sometimes I'm like, God, I'm
so sick of being serious. I need a break. I
want to go to something stupid, I have to remember
that it's okay to not be good at everything. And
you know, I also caveat that by saying I'm the
(25:55):
asthmatic in the family. Like I'm not a sport. I
love to watch sports, I can't play them, so I'm
not good at them either. But it does take some learning,
right to be free to play a little bit.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yes, now I see sleep, physical health, and mental health
as part of my activist life, and I know I
can perform best in my activism if I am counting
all of these things as part of my work. They
are not something off work. This is not an off
(26:30):
work activity. Like you have to count in your sleep,
you have to count in your nutrition, you have to
count in your mental and physical health, and just recognize
that this is going to help you deliver best in
the work that you do.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
It makes me so curious. I've wondered this for you,
and I'm so excited to get the one on one
time because usually I see you at something enormous, It's
like this is cool, but yes, everyone's shuttled in and out.
I was wondering for you when I think about you
know the timeline of your age. Yes again, blogging by
eleven for the BBC going through your incident at fifteen,
(27:09):
you know, as you said, waking up in a new
country and having to adjust to essentially the life of
a political refugee. Do you ever feel like did you
ever feel maybe this is what you're reclaiming now? Did
you ever feel like you could just be a girl,
a kid?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Like?
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Were you ever allowed to have a bad day or
be in a bad mood?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I wished for it, okay, but I could not find
an opportunity to be myself. So when I started a
school in the UK, I was in an all girls school,
and I had to be in school like for the
whole day almost and then come home and my parents
would just say, you know, stay at home. Or then
I would be traveling for different events and conferences and
(27:54):
be surrounded by people who are like thirty forty years
older than me and talking about really serious things and
sharing my story. But at home, I remember my parents
wouldn't even allow me to go to my friend's evening
party or just you know, friends, school hangouts and all
of these things which like basic things. We just go
for a pizza party or something like that. But my
(28:15):
parents were always worried I remember like one time there
were there was just like New Year's Eve fireworks at
one of my friend's house and I couldn't go, and
so my friend just recorded some videos on Snapchat and
she sent it to me. So that's how I was
trying to be a part of it. By the end
(28:35):
of my school life, I had only made one best friend.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I was it.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
And it was also, I think just purely by chance,
because she fell out with her other best friend, and
I was just sort of like a side character. She's like, okay,
you know, like you can be with me, But I
rarely talked. I couldn't really be myself. I missed the
old Malala that I was in Pakistan, mischievous, funny, loud.
I loved cracking jokes, and you know, I was just
I had just so many friends, and I remember I
(29:01):
was like there was a part of me who was
an activist but still myself, and somehow now I'm supposed
to be like, you know, this grown saintly kind of
activist who has to meet this expectation of like being
the same person. She cannot learn about herself, like she
has to be this fixed version of herself now. So
(29:22):
then came an opportunity where I thought, you know what,
maybe I could experience things a bit differently, And that
was when I was about to join college.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Wow, and how did you decide on Oxford?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I mean it was my dream place to go to.
I had heard about Oxford as a kid. And the
university is so beautiful. It has many colleges, old libraries.
It is by the Childwell River, so you're just so
close to nature. And the college that I selected for
(29:55):
myself is called Lady Margaret Hall and it was the
first women's college at Oxford. Women were not allowed to
go into any other library or colleges, which was, you know,
just one hundred and twenty something years ago, so not
that long ago that this was a reality for women
even in the UK US. So yeah, I knew that
college was the place where I wanted to study. It's
(30:18):
really beautiful and the Pakistani female Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto
also went to that college, so many reasons for why
I should. Yeah, that's why I thought I should consider it.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
It's really really cool. And now a word from our
sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will
too interesting too. To think about the timelines you know,
when you experienced present and active oppression, suppression in your
(30:53):
home country in your childhood. Then even you know, a
decade later, to be walking the halls box for half
a decade later, and to know, oh, there was a
time when I wouldn't have been allowed here either. You know,
when you talked at the top of the hour about
what the Taliban goes after, Why it's girls' education, why
(31:17):
it's the empowerment of women, you know what those systems
look like. That patriarchy, if you will, the bastardization of
faith to be fundamentalist and actually against what the book says.
You know, it's holding up a pretty terrifying mirror for
(31:38):
me in what we're dealing with today in America. The
fundamental bastardization of Christianity, even though we're not a theocracy,
the architects of Project twenty twenty five want us to be,
you know, the banning of books, the destabilization of women's
roles in society, their desire to remove not only our
(31:58):
bodily autonomy, but literally remove us from the halls of
power government. You know, it's so surreal to see that
we keep making the same mistakes. You know, you think
about one hundred and twenty years ago at Oxford. Well,
we learned that lesson, and how it's different. We've learned
these lessons before. Yes, you know so much of what's
(32:21):
going on in America today. We fought world wars over
this stuff and somehow we're back. And I wonder, as
you're balancing this really healthy sphere of your personal growth
and your own joy and your own play, how do
you counterbalance the imperative mission of continuing to show up
(32:50):
and say to people like Ding, Ding, Ding, we've been
talking about this. We're going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
How do you not just out there is an activist bit,
but like, yes, you the girl on the character across
from me, how do you keep yourself feeling fortified and
not losing hope or falling prey to just frustration that
we could be this stupid again.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes, you know, I think we all are feeling the
same way in many parts of the world. I feel
the exact same way when I think about the situation
of women and girls in Afghanistan right now. They're living
under a system of gender apartheid imposed by the Taliban,
who are punishing women and girls for simply tearing to
(33:41):
get their education or be at work. The Taliban have
made it a crime for women to have these equal rights.
They an Afghan girl has not seen a classroom for
the past four and a half years. When I think
about you know what's happening, it breaks my heart. And
you're very right. You know, in times like these, you
(34:02):
wonder whether you should be celebrating success or you should.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Be screaming into the wad, screaming.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Into the void, or at the people who are imposing
these things in the yes, like you know, why have
we lost humanity? Like what is happening? Why are people
putting the girl's education issue aside? You know that people
are normalizing relations with the Taliban and women are not
(34:32):
allowed in the rooms. You know, women are are erased.
Women are actually erased from from public life or or
any existence, which is really scary because it's not just
about women and girls in Afghanistan. It is about what
message are we sending to women and girls everywhere about
(34:53):
our commitment to this so called gender equity or feminism.
You know, these words fall short. They mean nothing if
we cannot act on them. When an injustice is happening
right in front of our eyes. I started my activism
at a young age, so I was an idealist for
a very long time. I thought we could make some
change happen with time. I thought, maybe I am naive.
(35:15):
Maybe I am naive because everybody tells me it takes
a long time. I know that we are mobilizing activists
and people on the ground, teachers, young women, girls and
you know, through Malala Fund, we investing them in Pakistan
and Nigeria, Afghanistan, like all of these countries, they're leading
amazing work. They're changing policies, they're like changing the futures
of gulls. But at the same time, when I witnessed
(35:38):
the reality of how a gull like in twenty twenty
five in Afghanistan is banned from education, how schools are
still getting bombed in places like Gaza, How child marriage
is a reality for girls in parts of Africa, when
hundreds of millions of children are losing their future. Is
(36:03):
it is frightening that, you know still like we have
to defend it, we have to talk about it, we
have to explain it. So I have, you know, become
more pessimistic now, But it doesn't stop me from the
way I do my work. Yeah, it actually makes me
work harder because I think that maybe we were just
(36:23):
too naive and we took it for granted, or we
thought it would be too easy. So when we reflect
on what's happening, I'm like, maybe we just thought, you know,
one accomplishment and somebody is now using a hashtag that
the job is done. No, I think we need to
think about systemic change, a lasting change that guarantees protection
to women and girls everywhere.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I love that for so long you had to be
this fixed version of yourself. Yeah, and you talk about
your childhood and a little mischievousness and I'm like, oh,
I want to know what your like favorite naughty have
it is. And I don't think a lot of women
get to be their whole selves and book and it
made me think for you, you know, not only did
(37:05):
you go through all of this at such a young age,
but even winning the Nobel Peace Prize at such a
young age. Yeah, I mean it was twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
How old were you seventeen?
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I was gonna say nineteen seventeen is even worse. I
mean amazing, But like, did it make you nervous about evolving, growing,
even dating? You know, you talk about your husband with
such a smile, like, yes, how is a Nobel Peace
Prize winner allowed to go on dates as a girl
(37:33):
in college?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Do you know? Like after the Nobel Peace Prize, I thought, yeah, like,
you know, people are paying more attention to what I'm
doing and they treat me with so much respect. But
I thought, I'm a bit less cool now for the boys,
like a boring Nobel like like a nerd she has, like,
you know, nothing funny to say, so wow, So I
you know, I wanted to let that funny side of
(37:58):
me come out. Yeah, and in college when I finally
felt that, you know, I am in the space now
on a campus with no parents and the first time
and no staff or work people. This this is my
time now, and I'm going to decide my calendar. I'm
(38:20):
going to decide what I want to do.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Did you ever skip class? Many?
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I'm so proud of you. My God doesn't sound right,
but let me explain.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Listen, let me get a break.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
In college, like you have to make choices. I chose
socializing over studying. It doesn't mean I was not studying
at all, but if I could hang out with my
friends and have some fun moments, climb the college rooftop,
or talk about boys and who was dating who and
who needs my advice on you which voice to date.
(38:55):
I wanted to do all of that because just that
normal life of a college girl, you know, a woman
in her early twenties, was something I had missed and
I wanted to relive that. Yes, I made the most
amazing friends at college. They gave me that comfort zone
(39:17):
where I could be myself. I did not have to
think twice about anything I said, because before I thought,
you know, are people going to quote me? Are they
judging me? Am I supposed to know everything? Can I
be allowed like not to know anything? Like absolutely anything?
And not to have anion? Yeah? Like, so what do
you think I'm I don't know, I haven't thought about it.
(39:37):
You tell me. And you know, those friends were amazing.
It was the first time that I felt they were
not interested in what happened when I was attacked, What
was it like when I won the Nobel Peace Prize.
They just wanted to know what I was up to
with my assignments, What was I doing the next day?
(40:00):
Should we go and get some groceries? And oh, what
do you think about that guy? Is an he q?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Oh my goodness. Yeah, that's so incredible.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, friends don't judge you. They give you that comfort zone.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I mean, the closest I can relate. Not that I
can relate to your journey in almost any way, but
the closest I can. I went to a very small,
all girls' school all through middle school, all through high school. Yes,
and when I was picking a college in a sort
(40:35):
of similar way, I thought, it's been me and you know,
I'm one of fifty five girls in my class. There's
two hundred and fifty kids girls in my entire school
from fourth grade to twelfth grade. I just want to
have the college experience I've seen in the movies. Yes,
So I decided to go to USC and I was like,
look at this a football game, never seen one of
those before. Look at this a Greek system, Look at this,
(40:57):
you know, a cafeteria. Did you say boys, I mean everywhere?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah. See. I also had no exposure, no exposure, I
had not seen boys. Yeah, when I saw them, I
was like, oh, you know, it wasn't really worth at
the time.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
But yeah, Also, college was a kind of disgusting. I know,
it's weird to sit in the classroom for the first
time your freshman year in college and be like, what
is that smell? And you're like, oh, it's the boys.
That is the part that like that's never in the movies.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
They're cool, but they're not as school like. Yeah, they
get they you know, they mature sort of a bit later.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I mean, we love them, yes, but I was like,
you all need to shower more. They never talk about
this part in the films.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
It's so it's just so funny to me. I love
picturing you, like moving across the rooftops of your dorm
with all your friends.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
I know. And then in Cottage, I also just felt
more comfortable in in just accepting my emotions and my feelings.
So when I saw this mysterious college guy who was very,
very handsome, I was like, wow, he's so good looking.
And I found out that he was like struggling with
(42:11):
his essays and he was in trouble all the time,
and the tutors were not happy with him. I was like, oh,
is there a way I can help him? I think
maybe he needs my help. And my friends were rolling
their eyes. They said, he always gets into trouble. Stay
away from him. He might be a drug dealer or something.
I was like, no, no, no, that you need to like,
(42:31):
you know, hear his side of the story. And yeah,
So I was there just to like trying to signal
that I'm here to help. But all he wanted was
some food from my room. So he would just show
up and get some bananas and crisps or whatever he
could find. He would not say a single word and
then disappear. Interesting, So yeah, that was like my failed mission.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
But that was more to kiss a few frogs.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, but that was love in him. I would say
something that I sort of felt good about because I
was feeling something, but that was not real. Of course,
he was clearly ghosting me and ignoring me. I was
refusing to accept the scigns. Then he disappeared. But you know,
I realized that you sort of you grow so much
(43:18):
when you allow these emotions to come out and you
embrace them. But then soon after I met user who
is now my husband.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yes, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Was
it an interesting thing for you meeting your husband and
(43:46):
knowing that there was something special in your connection, but
also knowing that if he was to be with you,
his life would become public in a way. How did
you too navigate that?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
I was not thinking from his perspective at all, even
though I should have. So I remember, you know, meeting
him for the first time. We went for go karting
and I had like a mini accident. I exaggerated it
a bit. I was like, I think I had a concussion,
and he's like, it's okay, like you're fine, Like you're
just being a bit dramatic. But anyway, I just liked
that he just treated me like a normal person. Then we,
(44:23):
you know, we went for a few dinners. Then I
took him for a movie at a cinema and I
was just telling him like, relax, you know, like just
be yourself. Why are you just like so scared and tensed?
And he said, you know, you have like two security
guards right behind you, and I think that they're watching me.
So he's like, it's not normal to be dating somebody. Yeah,
and these like big strong guys like right behind you
(44:47):
and watching you. So I was like, okay, fine, Like
I understand it from your perspective. I knew that I
loved us, sir. I immediately fell in love with him,
but I wanted to take my because I wanted to
understand what it means when we make a commitment. In
our culture. You know, you cannot date a guy technically,
(45:09):
and you have to get married if you want to
live together. So I said, okay, like I have to
not think about marriage and everything. As a kid, I
just hated marriage. I had seen how girls had lost
the opportunity to complete their education because they were married off.
Marriage was like a boring conversation. If you wanted to
have a future, like put marriage aside. Tell your family,
(45:30):
I'm not going to get married. This is what I
used to say. And I told all of my friends that,
you know, don't get married. And then then I saw
this guy and I was like, oh my goodness, Like
he's gorgeous and I want to be with him forever.
So I took my time. I did a lot of research.
I was just reading books by feminist authors, including Bell Hoax,
and I was having conversations with my mom, with my friends.
(45:53):
And then I got to know him more. I asked
him all of sometimes like silly questions, like if your
wife earns more than you, would you have a problem
with that? And he was like, why would I even
have a problem with that ord be so lucky if
she earns more than me, and you know, we can
have a comfortable life. I was like, Okay, okay, you know,
good answer.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Like check box on the cross.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Okay, not too bad. And then in the end, you know,
when when we spent some time together, we were in
Lake Placid and we had we had shared moments that
made me feel that he was the right one. I
felt loved when I was with him, and I had
prepared like a billion questions, but when I was with him,
(46:33):
every question just disappeared. I knew he was the one.
And yeah, then I decided to marry him. Yeah, and
I had told my friends, don't get married at least
till you are like thirty five or something. I was
the first one in my friends group to get married.
They were like, you changed yourself, but in a good way. Yeah,
(46:54):
they were like, seriously, anyway, I love it.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Well. The reason that I'm such a fan of your
I mean, aside from the fact that he's obviously a
lovely person and makes you happy, is that he is
also a huge fan of women's sports. Yes, which really
says to me that he's a real one, you know,
because he's not just like, hey, babe, let's go to
an NBA game. He's like, let's go see the New
York Liberty when we're in town. Yes, And I love
that for him and I love that for us.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
He is a BIGS women's sports fan. We both also
have started working on a project called Recess, which is
to invest in women's sports opportunities. And you know, I
have seen in my work that for us to make
a real difference for women and girls, we can't just
give them advice and words of inspiration. We have to
(47:41):
do real things to create opportunities for them. I tell
a girl, believe in yourself, follow her, follow your dreams,
and they look back and like, sorry, but there are
not enough leagues for us, not enough teams for us,
not enough opportunities for us. And I'm like, you know,
that's a fair response from young people that there's still
(48:01):
a lot that needs to be done in all sectors,
including sports, where we create equal opportunities for girls, where
they can do it. You know, they can treat sports
as a hobby, as as part of their education, or
as their career. Sports should be a career option for
girls from any part of the world. So I hope
that we can, you know, we can make a difference,
(48:21):
and we can bring in, you know, our expertise into this.
I'm just so excited for the work ahead. And I
named it recess because I think about a school recess time,
especially the recess time that I was experiencing when I
was a kid in Pakistan and girls had to stay
back in the school on a sports day and boys
(48:42):
could go to the local cricket ground. That was the
assumption that only boys could go to the cricket ground
and girls could not. They had to just be stuck
at school. They couldn't play any sports. And I asked
my husband, I said, what was your sports day like
in Pakistan? He said, yeah, you know, we used to
play hockey and then football and then cricket. It's like humm,
so very different expedience or boys when it's their recess time,
(49:06):
and very different experience for gus when it's their resist time.
Scin guzs have a different recess time. Yes, if we
create opportunities for them, if we start looking at sports
from the gender equity lens and make the right decisions
and the right shifts, yes, I think we can make
a difference, and.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
They absolutely can if we create it. Yes, And one
of the reasons it feels so incredibly important to me
and I'm excited about it. Girls who play sports become leaders.
You know, in the US, the statistic is that eighty
four percent of women who sit in C suites in
the highest seats of power in business and entrepreneurship played
(49:47):
high school or collegiate sports. But we also see that
by the age of thirteen, fifty percent of girls are
dropping out of sport because of access issues or body
confidence issues. And so I really think to your point
about gender equity, I think sports and access to sports play,
you know, team building. I think that is a real
(50:10):
sort of incredible inflection point for us. And I want
the girls that we have been beating these doors down
as activists for that we're trying to hold them open
for for all these girls to come behind us. I
want them to have that access and knowing how important
it is for us here when I think about places
around the world, you know, like you said, places you
(50:32):
work with your fund, whether it's Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nigeria, Like,
we've got to get girls on the field.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yes, you know, gulls deserve to have an opportunity in
everything that they dream for themselves. Sports is one of that. Yeah,
and I hope that we can make a difference for them.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Yeah, it's so exciting. Oh my god, I can't wait
for us to figure out what our first sporting event is.
I know we have to go to a gig.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
You have you seen cricket?
Speaker 1 (50:57):
I have seen it on TV. I've never seen a live.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I think we should go and see a cricket game. Okay,
how about that?
Speaker 1 (51:03):
And we should also go watch some football. But when
I say football, I mean real soccer soccer, not the
backwards thing that US Americans did, which is steal the
international word for soccer and then make football handball like America.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Is a topic for another day, I know, but sometimes
that you guys can come up with.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
I don't know why we're like this. It's like our
our art, our democratic experiment. The core of it is
so gorgeous, and then there's just some things in the
flywheel that I'm like, we gotta we gotta be better
than this. Yeah, talking about being better, Yes, leading with
(51:47):
a better vision. Your book, I'm so happy where in
person so I can hold it up to camera. The
art is so beautiful. The book is so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
I just I want every I want everyone, not just
everygirl or every woman to read this book. I want
everyone to read this book. You've talked on this tour.
Not to sound like a total creep, but I've been
paying attention. You've talked on your tour about how the
book feels more honest. Yes, And you said something that
kills me because I know what you mean. I think, Okay,
(52:19):
you said it's more awkward, more me, and I was like,
oh my god, I feel like that. Lately. I feel
like I've come to a point where like I'm a
little more awkward and a little more myself. What does
that mean for you? What does this book mean for you?
Speaker 2 (52:33):
This book is the most personal reflections I have ever shared.
And of course I was put in the spotlight from
a very young age. People have come to know me
through headlines and titles that I have received. Even I
got to know myself through that, and I was like, Okay,
you know, maybe this is the life that I have
to embrace and internalize. But I realized that there's just
(52:55):
so much more to life. I wanted to grow in womanhood.
I knew that, I you know, I just cannot be
this fixed version that somebody else is expecting of me,
or I am under the assumption like it's all about perceptions,
you know, how we understand or receive these things. That
I could not allow myself to be funny again and
(53:18):
to feel loved or to make friends. I thought these
things are not for me. And I felt that maybe
I'm doing a disservice to my role as an activist
if I am am also exploring, like you know who
I am as a person. But on this journey through college,
through through my years after that, I have grown as
(53:39):
a person. I feel that I have more like diverse
and more rich emotions and feelings. I thought that I
survived the Aliban incident and I restarted a new life,
(53:59):
and I was so brave to do that. But when
I had the panic attack and I really lived the
whole attack experience, which I thought I didn't remember so much,
like it broke me down, like I could not be
the brave self that I thought I was. I was
in the dark. I needed my friends to come over
to my college room for a sleepover to help me
(54:22):
go to sleep. That's how scary it was. I could
not focus on my work I would call my husband
and say, I don't know what's happening. You know, at
the time he was not my husband, but I would
just call him. I was like, you know, can you
tell me what has happened. I was like, maybe you
have a bit more experience on what these drugs and
stuff are like. But in the end, you know, it
(54:43):
took me months. It took me years to to get
through it, to find my way through it, and I
still do the work that I truly believe in. Even
when I have a panic attack, it does not stop
me from my activism or Afghan caause it does not
stop me from standing up to the Taliban. And now
(55:04):
I think this is true brevery, this is true courage.
You know, I feel like I'm standing up now, right,
I'm standing up now.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Because you're bringing your whole self.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Yeah, that's really beautiful. I'm so happy for you.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
So I mean, big moment. You know, this is a
big thing to put in the world. It's a big
reconstitution and a reclamation really of so many parts of
yourself that perhaps you didn't think you were allowed to
be anymore. There's a lot of work that goes into that.
When you look forward, you know, at what's coming or
(55:45):
what you're hoping for. What feels like you're work in progress.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
I mean right now for me, it's my book door.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, I literally getting to the calendar.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
No, I'm actually excited. I'll be going to so many
different parts of the world, including in the US. I
am so excited to try everything local. I mean the
Chicago Deep Dish pizza.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Oh, I have a whole list of restaurants Chicago.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
And you know, I enjoy the weather in La and
San Francisco. I'm excited for everything. I can't wait to
go to so many parts of the US and meet
people and you know, hopefully like talk to people. I
would love to know how other people are, you know, feeling.
I love talking to young people, how they are defining
(56:31):
bravery and courage, how they are navigating their way through
challenges in life. So I hope that this helps us
start a new conversation. I'm sharing my most personal reflections.
I'm reintroducing myself because I want my true self to
be out there in the public eye. Yeah. This if
somebody wants to know me, then this is the true me.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Yeah, it's beautiful. Congratulations and thank you. For coming.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Oh, thank you so much, so wonderful to speak to
you and to be on your podcast.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Thank you, M.
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to Work in Progress, Whipsmarties. Today we are joined
by someone I have been hoping to interview for so
(00:24):
many years. An activist that I look up to, a
leader who has shifted the conversation around women and girls
around the world, a woman who won the Nobel Peace
Prize at the age of seventeen, who also happens to
be a hell of a lot of fun, very funny,
and on her own journey of reclamation of her full self.
(00:47):
Today we're sitting down with Malala Yusefsi. She made the
world listen at just fifteen when under Taliban rule she
was blogging for the BBC about her life under occupation,
fighting for a right to education, and she was targeted
and shot. She survived an assassination attempt and refused to
(01:08):
be silenced, and since her voice has shaken governments, inspired millions,
and truly changed the conversation about girls' education worldwide. Now,
Malala is twenty eight, living in the UK with her husband,
and she's built a life that blends global advocacy and
personal growth. And I want to talk to her about
(01:32):
what her life is like away from the cameras and
the crowds, how she's begun to remind herself that she's
allowed to just be a girl. Sometimes she doesn't have
to be a saint, she doesn't always have to be
a leader, but she always will be someone that we
all look up to. Her new book, Finding My Way
(01:52):
is an absolutely gorgeous examination of this journey. She reveals
never before shared private struggle that have existed behind her
public courage, how she's grappled with survivor's guilt, how she's
navigated the pressures of global fame, and how she's still
trying to make a difference in a world that seems
(02:12):
more resistant to change, perhaps than ever in our lifetimes.
And while she may be one of the most incredible
figureheads we have for women in the world, like the
rest of us, she's just a girl trying to figure
it out one day at a time. Let's talk all
things with Malala. Well, hello, and thank you so much
(02:44):
for joining me on the show today.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
How is the book tour going.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I mean, it's a lot of work, but I'm so excited.
It's fun. Yeah, and I'm so excited to go to
different CITs in the US, UK, Europe and meet the
people who are going to enjoy reading this book.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, it's amazing. I've been thinking so much in advance
of today because I normally like to ask people when
we sit down together to begin, given anyone I sit
with is usually doing something incredible in the world. As
you are, you know, audiences will know you for your
body of work, your activism, who you are as an
(03:28):
adult in the world. And I always like to go
backwards with guests and find out about the through lines
and the connections to who they were in their youth.
You know, the traits they grew up with that maybe
tie to who they are today. And most often I
ask people to take me back to if they could
(03:51):
imagine rather an interaction with themselves at ten. But it
really sort of took me aback thinking about that for you,
because you were ten and when the Taliban took over
the Sa Sally in Pakistan, and just thinking about sitting
in a room with you, going, oh my god, what's
(04:12):
that going to be like for her? I wonder if
you'd rather go back to maybe your eight year old
self or your nine year old self, is there joy
when you think about your youth pre that shift that
you'd rather begin within.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
We went through a very tough time when the Taliban
took over. This was when I understood how valuable pieces
and how lucky those of us are who get the
opportunity to get an education and to follow our dreams,
because the Taliban denied all of that to women and
girls in my hometown. But I have treasured every moment
(04:56):
that I had with my friends, the moments I had
a in Swat Valley before the Taliban took over. We
were surrounded by beautiful mountains. We lived by the rivers,
and I loved being closer to nature. But you know,
even during the Taliban time, when we would secretly go
to school, hide our box and try to make sure
(05:16):
that the Taliban never caught us, we would treasure the laughter,
the giggles with friends. So it's still a memorable moment
for me when I think about girls having dreams and
still trying to learn even when scary men try to
stop them. And after we saw what life looks like
(05:39):
when you do not have peace, when you are hearing
bombings and attacks, you are internally displaced, you you lose
all of that is that after that, we treasure every
moment of peace, so we were just so grateful for it.
I do have memories, but of course, you know, I
sort of became an activist at a very young age,
(06:00):
so life did not feel like that of a normal
child that I was before. It did change significantly, but
I still try to have normal experiences as much as
I could.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
That's really special. It's interesting to think about for you
in that timeline because to your point, you have all
of the memories before. It wasn't like you were three
or four years old, so you didn't know what you'd lost.
Do you think at the time you were able to
reflect on pre and post takeover? Or was the fearful
(06:41):
adventure of continuing to pursue your education? Was that really
central to your world? And now as an adult, you
can look back and really see the contrast in the
pre and post takeover.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I you know, I remember the early days of growing
up in Swat Valley and my time with my two
younger brothers. We used to like fight all the time,
but we loved each other as well. I loved watching television.
I loved my studies. I was obsessed with school. Actually,
the girls in my hometown valued education because they knew
(07:17):
that it is rare to have a supportive father and
a supportive family that allow you to be in school.
So there are already many challenges that girls were facing
and access to education. But when we saw the most
extreme form of oppression against women where gun were armed.
Gunmen try to impose these rules on women that they
cannot have jobs, they cannot leave their homes, and girls
(07:40):
cannot go to school. That's when we realized that education
is such a powerful tool that the people who do
not want to see women empowered, they take education first
from women. So, you know, I remember the before time
that we had in Swa Valley and I and you know,
(08:02):
sometimes I wish like those days had lasted for a
lot longer. Now there is peace, you know, after like
two three years of terrorism, a military operation was done.
People returned to their homes after their displacement. But it's
still I feel like takes a while that it feels
like it still takes a while that you know, for
(08:24):
people to recover from from what had happened.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Of course, well, because the the trauma, it changes your
olympic system, your ability to walk outside in a care
free manner to look at the mountains or watch the
water in the river, to to feel a lightness of
being when it's taken from you. Yeah, I think it
(08:48):
takes so much longer to get back than the theft
takes to happen. Yeah, when you talk about knowing, you know,
if these men wanted so bad to steal women's empowerment
so badly that they would try to steal education from
girls as young as ten years old younger, were you
(09:10):
and your classmates while you were fighting to study in secret?
Were you talking about it in real time? Were your relatives,
your mothers, your aunties, like, were the women in your
life telling you why they were particularly so aggressive with
the women and girls.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yes, it was our normal day to day conversation to
talk about what new rules the Taliban are now announcing
restricting women from something else, And you know, people try
to make sense of it, but it just made no
sense because the Taliban would sometimes defend it as an
Islamic rule, but everybody said that, you know, we're already
(09:52):
an Islamic country, and in Islam, education is not only
a right, but it's actually a duty you are supposed
to learn, and it's an equal opportunity for both men
and women, So how can the Taliban be bringing their
own extreme patriarchal norms into this. So we were also
challenging them in misusing Islam. So yes, you know there
(10:15):
were people who were challenging it. But you know, the
Taliban were threatening people who spoke out against them. The
month of January two thousand and nine was very scary
because girls were not allowed to be in school. They
were bombing schools, and they were targeting people who spoke out.
So I was more worried about my father at the
time because I was only eleven years old. I did
(10:37):
not know that they would come and attack a girl
or a child. But I was more concerned about my
father because I knew that a lot of activists who
had spoken against the Taliban had been attacked. Every night,
I would pray for my father to be safe.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Of course, because his defending you put a target on
his back as well.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yes, and he was a very strong advocate for girls' education.
He spoke out for women, so you know, they see
men who become allies of women as a threat.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Of course, of course, because in a fundamentalist or violently
patriarchal culture, men who ally themselves with us are traders
to the patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yes, yes, one hundred percent, And it just reminds us
how powerful and important the role of men is to
help dismantle patriarchy. You know, I tell people that I
was able to speak out, be in front of a
camera and tell my story to the world because my
(11:39):
father did not stop me. He supported me in doing that.
So many other girls in my school, in my community
wanted to tell their story, but their brothers or their
fathers stop them. The men stopped them, and it's so
important for people to know that. You know, It's like,
oftentimes it's the men who clip the wings of their daughters,
(12:02):
of the things in their community. So oftentimes, you know,
my dad has asked what he did for his daughter,
and he says, don't ask me what I did, but
ask me what I did not do. I did not
clip her wings.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, I love your dad. It's really very cool. Yeah right,
I'm lucky to have such a cool dad. And I think,
you know, that's a big part of it, because obviously,
as women, we understand what our gendered issues are, and
if we're just talking to women about it, it's like
we're yelling in an echo chamber. We need men to
(12:36):
break through the issues with us. Yes, I wonder for
you. You know you mentioned that you had everything changed so early.
You know you wish you'd had more of those pre years,
a longer runway of normal childhood as it were, you know,
(12:57):
to go through what you went through, the fact that
by eleven you were an activist. You know, you were
blogging for the BBC. And I'm sure now you understand
the bravery that that took, both on your own part
and your father's part, certainly your family's part. Did you
know then, or as a young girl who loved school,
(13:21):
who was pissed someone was telling you you couldn't go,
did it just feel like the right outlet.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
It's a fair question that if you are experiencing such
a scary situation and you know that the Taliban could
target you, why would you speak out? But I always
remind people that I was more scared of a life
without an education. Yes, that future was dark, and I
had seen how so many girls had lost that opportunity.
(13:47):
I mean, you know, my life took a whole different trajectory,
so that you know, I could never imagine that I
would be like living in the UK and I would
be going to Oxford and all of that. My dream
was just to continue going to that local school that
the Taliban wanted to close. And so yeah, you know,
(14:09):
when when I finished my graduation at Oxford it was
in twenty twenty, I felt like I had won a battle,
that this was a personal victory. You know, I did
not need to make any announcement or anything, but I
took a moment with myself and I told myself, you
have won. You completed your education. This is what the
(14:31):
Taliban did not want to see. And you are living that.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Moment well and living it not only as someone who
escaped a system and who escaped a real vacuum of
violence in a time, but I mean you literally survived
an assassination attempt. Yes, that's not something most people go through,
let alone most fifteen year old girls. I know, that's
(14:53):
obviously a story You've had to reflect on a lot.
And the last thing I ever want to do is
to ask women to constantly relive their trauma for maybe
the five people living under a rock who don't know
about it. But one of the things that I'm fascinated
by is actually how we heal. Yes, and I've been
so moved by the way you've spoken about how there
(15:17):
was a time, you know where as the human brain
does your brain work to protect you and you couldn't
recall a lot. Yes, and you've worked on taking back
I would say, parts of those memories and being able
to move past them after this many years of doing
(15:40):
that sort of self work. How does it sit with
you now? How do you feel now? Are you are
you more desirous of saying I've spoken about it and
I'd like to move on, or are you in a
place where you feel like there are lessons you might
(16:00):
want to offer to other survivors of trauma.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah. I remember my last day of school in Pakistan.
I'm with my friends. I hope I can go to
school the next day, and then something happens like there's
there's just like too many memories, too many visuals, and
and it's it's just a very confusing time. But I
think about a week later, I wake up in a
hospital in a different country. I do not see a
(16:24):
single brown face. Everybody is speaking a different language. I
have a tube in my neck. I am processing what
had happened. I'm looking for for my family. I'm just like,
you know, who has brought me here? What happened. At
the time, I was just trying to process this adjustment
to a new culture, restarting a whole new life, and
(16:47):
I felt like I did not have any time that
I needed to recover quickly, and I healed through the
surgeries quickly as well. We were offered mental health support
as well. There was a therapist, but this was the
first time I was hearing about it. You know, in
Pakistan it's often associated with with like, you know, people
(17:11):
who like go crazy and and so I was like, oh,
you know, what do you mean therapy? I sort of
rolled my eyes and I did not get therapy at
the time. But seven years later, in college, that whole
shooting experience was triggered by a bong incident, and that
(17:34):
that night was the scariest night I had ever experienced
because I felt that I reallived it, that the memory,
the flashbacks, everything that I had suppressed in my memory,
or maybe that my brain had just to protect me.
I tried to, you know, I try to remember, but
I couldn't remember anything, and suddenly everything was right in
(17:54):
front of my eyes. That night, I froze I could
not do anything helpless, and as much as I tried,
I you know, I started getting so scared. I could
not even close my eyes because I thought if I
closed my eyes, I would die. And you know, I
(18:16):
felt that maybe maybe I remembered, maybe I had seen
what the Taliban did to me, and everything changed for
me since because I could not get myself out of
the trauma, I felt that it was something that was
left undone. It was an unfinished part of my recovery.
(18:36):
I always associated my recovery with the physical injuries, and
once a surgery was done, I said, I am fully recovered.
Everything is done. But this was that that open wound
that we did not that we did not heal. Yes,
so yeah, After months of panic attacks, anxiety, PTSD, I
(19:03):
finally started therapy. And it was only when a friend
of mine told me that I should see a therapist.
She could see that I was not being myself and
she told me that a lot of students get that,
and she herself sees a therapist. That gave me a
little comfort that I am not the only awkward one.
And I was hoping that maybe I'll get some medication
in the therapy. Right that here are my problems, prescribe
(19:26):
me something, fix it fast. Yes, yeah, they told me
this is going to be a process.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yes, that's incredible. And now for our sponsors. It is interesting,
isn't it. How stigma it really worms its way into
the way we feel about ourselves. And how lucky you
(19:54):
were in the moment that this horrible thing was happening
to you, that you had the great gift of friends
say no, we so many people go to therapy. We
need it, you know. Realizing that there's stigma about it
means that I talk about therapy on the podcast so much.
Everybody knows I'm obsessed with my therapist. He's like one
of my favorite people on the planet. And what I've realized,
(20:17):
I think, especially for women who love education, for women
who are activists, when you are a problem solver, you
often look out at the world and think, I'm going
to dedicate my time to this cause and these people,
and I'll show up at this thing and I'll lend
my voice to that thing over there. And it takes
someone saying you can also advocate for yourself. You can
(20:42):
also invest in yourself. You can also work through the
kind of critical thinking you've become an expert at for
your own well being. And I find it really interesting
how long it takes us to turn that sort of
love of the world world back on ourselves. Yeah, but
(21:02):
what an amazing thing that you got to begin to
do that.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yes, and now I embrace therapy as part of my journey.
Initially I was taking it as a one off treatment,
but I realized I need it. I need it more
because I you know, I thought I was like, Okay,
you know, I'm sort of done with it. But then
a few years later, I'm in South Africa and I
speak about the situation of women and girls in Afghanistan,
(21:29):
how the Taliban are restricting them from work and any
political and public presence, and girls are banned from education.
So when I spoke at the Nelson Mandela lecture, I
finished all my interviews, and you know, in the middle
of the night, I wake up from my sleep and
I am like shaking and shivering, and I thought I
(21:50):
was going to die. It was. It was a proper
panic attack. And my husband was there with me. He
supported me and was holding my hand. But I realized
that that that there is still so much that I
have left unaddressed. So I went back to my therapist.
And now I'm like, Okay, it's gonna stay with me.
(22:10):
I'm gonna keep seeing my therapist more regularly, and we
should normalize it. I think that's the most important thing.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I think, especially you know, we're at least here. You know,
I don't know how it feels to you in the UK,
but in the US we're so obsessed with physical fitness.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
That's also good.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Well sure, but for me, I'm like, if you go
to the gym, if you know you should go for
a walk after dinner to stabilize your blood sugar, your
brain needs a walk too. You know your brain needs
the gym. And so I try to reframe when I
speak about mental health. I try to reframe therapy as
as your brain gym or your mental health care. Yes,
(22:51):
you know it's healthcare.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
And I think even that for me has done something
where you know, Tuesdays at nine am, that's WoT and
I'm like, it's my it's my brain pill oates.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yes, you know, that's so helpful because I remember feeling
just guilty for simply wanting to take a break or
get a nap or go out for a walk, because
I thought when you are an activist, you're supposed to
give twenty four to seven or rather twenty five hours,
you know, like the extra time you can give to
(23:24):
to to the work, to the mission. And I would
you know, I was always tired and exhausted and I
was overwhelmed. And I think that's why these things like
anxiety and PTSD and panic attacks like started happening, because
it all piles up. It adds to it that, you know.
It was only when I got married that I started
(23:45):
considering like this, you know, rest time and sports and
just relaxing more seriously. So, yes, I do go to
the gym. I do weight lifting and all of that
and becoming a proper gym bro, which I love, or
a gym.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Sust okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
And I do try like new sports whatever that is.
I don't have to be perfect at it and uh
and of course I can never be good at it,
but I'm like, it's just about paying and enjoying the sport.
But more than that, it is giving myself some time
to rest and recharge myself because I would not be
able to deliver my best on the things that I
(24:27):
care about. Yes, if I do not look after myself.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Absolutely That's been such a lesson for me too. And
I think it is that that activists sort of motivation
or heart, where you think, I've got to give, give, give, give, give. Yes,
I'm so privileged in my relative life. Yeah, I've gotta
I've got to always be doubling down. And eventually I
(24:51):
realized between that and the way I've been cultured to
perform as a as an actor. And I've learned a
lot of this with my partner because of the way
she was cultured to perform as an athlete. When you
constantly think you have to be at the top of
your game, constantly have to give every moment to excellence
(25:12):
or community or the speech or the flight or the
book or the thing, you lose your sense of wonder.
And when you stop playing, you also stop reparenting that
inner child. To be able to give some play and
adventure back to yourself, especially in the way that it
was taken from you in your story, in your life,
(25:34):
it's so restorative for the soul. And we also our lives,
our careers. They're so serious. Sometimes I'm like, God, I'm
so sick of being serious. I need a break. I
want to go to something stupid, I have to remember
that it's okay to not be good at everything. And
you know, I also caveat that by saying I'm the
(25:55):
asthmatic in the family. Like I'm not a sport. I
love to watch sports, I can't play them, so I'm
not good at them either. But it does take some learning,
right to be free to play a little bit.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yes, now I see sleep, physical health, and mental health
as part of my activist life, and I know I
can perform best in my activism if I am counting
all of these things as part of my work. They
are not something off work. This is not an off
(26:30):
work activity. Like you have to count in your sleep,
you have to count in your nutrition, you have to
count in your mental and physical health, and just recognize
that this is going to help you deliver best in
the work that you do.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
It makes me so curious. I've wondered this for you,
and I'm so excited to get the one on one
time because usually I see you at something enormous, It's
like this is cool, but yes, everyone's shuttled in and out.
I was wondering for you when I think about you
know the timeline of your age. Yes again, blogging by
eleven for the BBC going through your incident at fifteen,
(27:09):
you know, as you said, waking up in a new
country and having to adjust to essentially the life of
a political refugee. Do you ever feel like did you
ever feel maybe this is what you're reclaiming now? Did
you ever feel like you could just be a girl,
a kid?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Like?
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Were you ever allowed to have a bad day or
be in a bad mood?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I wished for it, okay, but I could not find
an opportunity to be myself. So when I started a
school in the UK, I was in an all girls school,
and I had to be in school like for the
whole day almost and then come home and my parents
would just say, you know, stay at home. Or then
I would be traveling for different events and conferences and
(27:54):
be surrounded by people who are like thirty forty years
older than me and talking about really serious things and
sharing my story. But at home, I remember my parents
wouldn't even allow me to go to my friend's evening
party or just you know, friends, school hangouts and all
of these things which like basic things. We just go
for a pizza party or something like that. But my
(28:15):
parents were always worried I remember like one time there
were there was just like New Year's Eve fireworks at
one of my friend's house and I couldn't go, and
so my friend just recorded some videos on Snapchat and
she sent it to me. So that's how I was
trying to be a part of it. By the end
(28:35):
of my school life, I had only made one best friend.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I was it.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
And it was also, I think just purely by chance,
because she fell out with her other best friend, and
I was just sort of like a side character. She's like, okay,
you know, like you can be with me, But I
rarely talked. I couldn't really be myself. I missed the
old Malala that I was in Pakistan, mischievous, funny, loud.
I loved cracking jokes, and you know, I was just
I had just so many friends, and I remember I
(29:01):
was like there was a part of me who was
an activist but still myself, and somehow now I'm supposed
to be like, you know, this grown saintly kind of
activist who has to meet this expectation of like being
the same person. She cannot learn about herself, like she
has to be this fixed version of herself now. So
(29:22):
then came an opportunity where I thought, you know what,
maybe I could experience things a bit differently, And that
was when I was about to join college.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Wow, and how did you decide on Oxford?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I mean it was my dream place to go to.
I had heard about Oxford as a kid. And the
university is so beautiful. It has many colleges, old libraries.
It is by the Childwell River, so you're just so
close to nature. And the college that I selected for
(29:55):
myself is called Lady Margaret Hall and it was the
first women's college at Oxford. Women were not allowed to
go into any other library or colleges, which was, you know,
just one hundred and twenty something years ago, so not
that long ago that this was a reality for women
even in the UK US. So yeah, I knew that
college was the place where I wanted to study. It's
(30:18):
really beautiful and the Pakistani female Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto
also went to that college, so many reasons for why
I should. Yeah, that's why I thought I should consider it.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
It's really really cool. And now a word from our
sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will
too interesting too. To think about the timelines you know,
when you experienced present and active oppression, suppression in your
(30:53):
home country in your childhood. Then even you know, a
decade later, to be walking the halls box for half
a decade later, and to know, oh, there was a
time when I wouldn't have been allowed here either. You know,
when you talked at the top of the hour about
what the Taliban goes after, Why it's girls' education, why
(31:17):
it's the empowerment of women, you know what those systems
look like. That patriarchy, if you will, the bastardization of
faith to be fundamentalist and actually against what the book says.
You know, it's holding up a pretty terrifying mirror for
(31:38):
me in what we're dealing with today in America. The
fundamental bastardization of Christianity, even though we're not a theocracy,
the architects of Project twenty twenty five want us to be,
you know, the banning of books, the destabilization of women's
roles in society, their desire to remove not only our
(31:58):
bodily autonomy, but literally remove us from the halls of
power government. You know, it's so surreal to see that
we keep making the same mistakes. You know, you think
about one hundred and twenty years ago at Oxford. Well,
we learned that lesson, and how it's different. We've learned
these lessons before. Yes, you know so much of what's
(32:21):
going on in America today. We fought world wars over
this stuff and somehow we're back. And I wonder, as
you're balancing this really healthy sphere of your personal growth
and your own joy and your own play, how do
you counterbalance the imperative mission of continuing to show up
(32:50):
and say to people like Ding, Ding, Ding, we've been
talking about this. We're going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
How do you not just out there is an activist bit,
but like, yes, you the girl on the character across
from me, how do you keep yourself feeling fortified and
not losing hope or falling prey to just frustration that
we could be this stupid again.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes, you know, I think we all are feeling the
same way in many parts of the world. I feel
the exact same way when I think about the situation
of women and girls in Afghanistan right now. They're living
under a system of gender apartheid imposed by the Taliban,
who are punishing women and girls for simply tearing to
(33:41):
get their education or be at work. The Taliban have
made it a crime for women to have these equal rights.
They an Afghan girl has not seen a classroom for
the past four and a half years. When I think
about you know what's happening, it breaks my heart. And
you're very right. You know, in times like these, you
(34:02):
wonder whether you should be celebrating success or you should.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Be screaming into the wad, screaming.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Into the void, or at the people who are imposing
these things in the yes, like you know, why have
we lost humanity? Like what is happening? Why are people
putting the girl's education issue aside? You know that people
are normalizing relations with the Taliban and women are not
(34:32):
allowed in the rooms. You know, women are are erased.
Women are actually erased from from public life or or
any existence, which is really scary because it's not just
about women and girls in Afghanistan. It is about what
message are we sending to women and girls everywhere about
(34:53):
our commitment to this so called gender equity or feminism.
You know, these words fall short. They mean nothing if
we cannot act on them. When an injustice is happening
right in front of our eyes. I started my activism
at a young age, so I was an idealist for
a very long time. I thought we could make some
change happen with time. I thought, maybe I am naive.
(35:15):
Maybe I am naive because everybody tells me it takes
a long time. I know that we are mobilizing activists
and people on the ground, teachers, young women, girls and
you know, through Malala Fund, we investing them in Pakistan
and Nigeria, Afghanistan, like all of these countries, they're leading
amazing work. They're changing policies, they're like changing the futures
of gulls. But at the same time, when I witnessed
(35:38):
the reality of how a gull like in twenty twenty
five in Afghanistan is banned from education, how schools are
still getting bombed in places like Gaza, How child marriage
is a reality for girls in parts of Africa, when
hundreds of millions of children are losing their future. Is
(36:03):
it is frightening that, you know still like we have
to defend it, we have to talk about it, we
have to explain it. So I have, you know, become
more pessimistic now, But it doesn't stop me from the
way I do my work. Yeah, it actually makes me
work harder because I think that maybe we were just
(36:23):
too naive and we took it for granted, or we
thought it would be too easy. So when we reflect
on what's happening, I'm like, maybe we just thought, you know,
one accomplishment and somebody is now using a hashtag that
the job is done. No, I think we need to
think about systemic change, a lasting change that guarantees protection
to women and girls everywhere.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I love that for so long you had to be
this fixed version of yourself. Yeah, and you talk about
your childhood and a little mischievousness and I'm like, oh,
I want to know what your like favorite naughty have
it is. And I don't think a lot of women
get to be their whole selves and book and it
made me think for you, you know, not only did
(37:05):
you go through all of this at such a young age,
but even winning the Nobel Peace Prize at such a
young age. Yeah, I mean it was twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
How old were you seventeen?
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I was gonna say nineteen seventeen is even worse. I
mean amazing, But like, did it make you nervous about evolving, growing,
even dating? You know, you talk about your husband with
such a smile, like, yes, how is a Nobel Peace
Prize winner allowed to go on dates as a girl
(37:33):
in college?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Do you know? Like after the Nobel Peace Prize, I thought, yeah, like,
you know, people are paying more attention to what I'm
doing and they treat me with so much respect. But
I thought, I'm a bit less cool now for the boys,
like a boring Nobel like like a nerd she has, like,
you know, nothing funny to say, so wow, So I
you know, I wanted to let that funny side of
(37:58):
me come out. Yeah, and in college when I finally
felt that, you know, I am in the space now
on a campus with no parents and the first time
and no staff or work people. This this is my
time now, and I'm going to decide my calendar. I'm
(38:20):
going to decide what I want to do.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Did you ever skip class? Many?
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I'm so proud of you. My God doesn't sound right,
but let me explain.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Listen, let me get a break.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
In college, like you have to make choices. I chose
socializing over studying. It doesn't mean I was not studying
at all, but if I could hang out with my
friends and have some fun moments, climb the college rooftop,
or talk about boys and who was dating who and
who needs my advice on you which voice to date.
(38:55):
I wanted to do all of that because just that
normal life of a college girl, you know, a woman
in her early twenties, was something I had missed and
I wanted to relive that. Yes, I made the most
amazing friends at college. They gave me that comfort zone
(39:17):
where I could be myself. I did not have to
think twice about anything I said, because before I thought,
you know, are people going to quote me? Are they
judging me? Am I supposed to know everything? Can I
be allowed like not to know anything? Like absolutely anything?
And not to have anion? Yeah? Like, so what do
you think I'm I don't know, I haven't thought about it.
(39:37):
You tell me. And you know, those friends were amazing.
It was the first time that I felt they were
not interested in what happened when I was attacked, What
was it like when I won the Nobel Peace Prize.
They just wanted to know what I was up to
with my assignments, What was I doing the next day?
(40:00):
Should we go and get some groceries? And oh, what
do you think about that guy? Is an he q?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Oh my goodness. Yeah, that's so incredible.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, friends don't judge you. They give you that comfort zone.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I mean, the closest I can relate. Not that I
can relate to your journey in almost any way, but
the closest I can. I went to a very small,
all girls' school all through middle school, all through high school. Yes,
and when I was picking a college in a sort
(40:35):
of similar way, I thought, it's been me and you know,
I'm one of fifty five girls in my class. There's
two hundred and fifty kids girls in my entire school
from fourth grade to twelfth grade. I just want to
have the college experience I've seen in the movies. Yes,
So I decided to go to USC and I was like,
look at this a football game, never seen one of
those before. Look at this a Greek system, Look at this,
(40:57):
you know, a cafeteria. Did you say boys, I mean everywhere?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah. See. I also had no exposure, no exposure, I
had not seen boys. Yeah, when I saw them, I
was like, oh, you know, it wasn't really worth at
the time.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
But yeah, Also, college was a kind of disgusting. I know,
it's weird to sit in the classroom for the first
time your freshman year in college and be like, what
is that smell? And you're like, oh, it's the boys.
That is the part that like that's never in the movies.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
They're cool, but they're not as school like. Yeah, they
get they you know, they mature sort of a bit later.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I mean, we love them, yes, but I was like,
you all need to shower more. They never talk about
this part in the films.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
It's so it's just so funny to me. I love
picturing you, like moving across the rooftops of your dorm
with all your friends.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
I know. And then in Cottage, I also just felt
more comfortable in in just accepting my emotions and my feelings.
So when I saw this mysterious college guy who was very,
very handsome, I was like, wow, he's so good looking.
And I found out that he was like struggling with
(42:11):
his essays and he was in trouble all the time,
and the tutors were not happy with him. I was like, oh,
is there a way I can help him? I think
maybe he needs my help. And my friends were rolling
their eyes. They said, he always gets into trouble. Stay
away from him. He might be a drug dealer or something.
I was like, no, no, no, that you need to like,
(42:31):
you know, hear his side of the story. And yeah,
So I was there just to like trying to signal
that I'm here to help. But all he wanted was
some food from my room. So he would just show
up and get some bananas and crisps or whatever he
could find. He would not say a single word and
then disappear. Interesting, So yeah, that was like my failed mission.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
But that was more to kiss a few frogs.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, but that was love in him. I would say
something that I sort of felt good about because I
was feeling something, but that was not real. Of course,
he was clearly ghosting me and ignoring me. I was
refusing to accept the scigns. Then he disappeared. But you know,
I realized that you sort of you grow so much
(43:18):
when you allow these emotions to come out and you
embrace them. But then soon after I met user who
is now my husband.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yes, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Was
it an interesting thing for you meeting your husband and
(43:46):
knowing that there was something special in your connection, but
also knowing that if he was to be with you,
his life would become public in a way. How did
you too navigate that?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
I was not thinking from his perspective at all, even
though I should have. So I remember, you know, meeting
him for the first time. We went for go karting
and I had like a mini accident. I exaggerated it
a bit. I was like, I think I had a concussion,
and he's like, it's okay, like you're fine, Like you're
just being a bit dramatic. But anyway, I just liked
that he just treated me like a normal person. Then we,
(44:23):
you know, we went for a few dinners. Then I
took him for a movie at a cinema and I
was just telling him like, relax, you know, like just
be yourself. Why are you just like so scared and tensed?
And he said, you know, you have like two security
guards right behind you, and I think that they're watching me.
So he's like, it's not normal to be dating somebody. Yeah,
and these like big strong guys like right behind you
(44:47):
and watching you. So I was like, okay, fine, Like
I understand it from your perspective. I knew that I
loved us, sir. I immediately fell in love with him,
but I wanted to take my because I wanted to
understand what it means when we make a commitment. In
our culture. You know, you cannot date a guy technically,
(45:09):
and you have to get married if you want to
live together. So I said, okay, like I have to
not think about marriage and everything. As a kid, I
just hated marriage. I had seen how girls had lost
the opportunity to complete their education because they were married off.
Marriage was like a boring conversation. If you wanted to
have a future, like put marriage aside. Tell your family,
(45:30):
I'm not going to get married. This is what I
used to say. And I told all of my friends that,
you know, don't get married. And then then I saw
this guy and I was like, oh my goodness, Like
he's gorgeous and I want to be with him forever.
So I took my time. I did a lot of research.
I was just reading books by feminist authors, including Bell Hoax,
and I was having conversations with my mom, with my friends.
(45:53):
And then I got to know him more. I asked
him all of sometimes like silly questions, like if your
wife earns more than you, would you have a problem
with that? And he was like, why would I even
have a problem with that ord be so lucky if
she earns more than me, and you know, we can
have a comfortable life. I was like, Okay, okay, you know,
good answer.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Like check box on the cross.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Okay, not too bad. And then in the end, you know,
when when we spent some time together, we were in
Lake Placid and we had we had shared moments that
made me feel that he was the right one. I
felt loved when I was with him, and I had
prepared like a billion questions, but when I was with him,
(46:33):
every question just disappeared. I knew he was the one.
And yeah, then I decided to marry him. Yeah, and
I had told my friends, don't get married at least
till you are like thirty five or something. I was
the first one in my friends group to get married.
They were like, you changed yourself, but in a good way. Yeah,
(46:54):
they were like, seriously, anyway, I love it.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Well. The reason that I'm such a fan of your
I mean, aside from the fact that he's obviously a
lovely person and makes you happy, is that he is
also a huge fan of women's sports. Yes, which really
says to me that he's a real one, you know,
because he's not just like, hey, babe, let's go to
an NBA game. He's like, let's go see the New
York Liberty when we're in town. Yes, And I love
that for him and I love that for us.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
He is a BIGS women's sports fan. We both also
have started working on a project called Recess, which is
to invest in women's sports opportunities. And you know, I
have seen in my work that for us to make
a real difference for women and girls, we can't just
give them advice and words of inspiration. We have to
(47:41):
do real things to create opportunities for them. I tell
a girl, believe in yourself, follow her, follow your dreams,
and they look back and like, sorry, but there are
not enough leagues for us, not enough teams for us,
not enough opportunities for us. And I'm like, you know,
that's a fair response from young people that there's still
(48:01):
a lot that needs to be done in all sectors,
including sports, where we create equal opportunities for girls, where
they can do it. You know, they can treat sports
as a hobby, as as part of their education, or
as their career. Sports should be a career option for
girls from any part of the world. So I hope
that we can, you know, we can make a difference,
(48:21):
and we can bring in, you know, our expertise into this.
I'm just so excited for the work ahead. And I
named it recess because I think about a school recess time,
especially the recess time that I was experiencing when I
was a kid in Pakistan and girls had to stay
back in the school on a sports day and boys
(48:42):
could go to the local cricket ground. That was the
assumption that only boys could go to the cricket ground
and girls could not. They had to just be stuck
at school. They couldn't play any sports. And I asked
my husband, I said, what was your sports day like
in Pakistan? He said, yeah, you know, we used to
play hockey and then football and then cricket. It's like humm,
so very different expedience or boys when it's their recess time,
(49:06):
and very different experience for gus when it's their resist time.
Scin guzs have a different recess time. Yes, if we
create opportunities for them, if we start looking at sports
from the gender equity lens and make the right decisions
and the right shifts, yes, I think we can make
a difference, and.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
They absolutely can if we create it. Yes, And one
of the reasons it feels so incredibly important to me
and I'm excited about it. Girls who play sports become leaders.
You know, in the US, the statistic is that eighty
four percent of women who sit in C suites in
the highest seats of power in business and entrepreneurship played
(49:47):
high school or collegiate sports. But we also see that
by the age of thirteen, fifty percent of girls are
dropping out of sport because of access issues or body
confidence issues. And so I really think to your point
about gender equity, I think sports and access to sports play,
you know, team building. I think that is a real
(50:10):
sort of incredible inflection point for us. And I want
the girls that we have been beating these doors down
as activists for that we're trying to hold them open
for for all these girls to come behind us. I
want them to have that access and knowing how important
it is for us here when I think about places
around the world, you know, like you said, places you
(50:32):
work with your fund, whether it's Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nigeria, Like,
we've got to get girls on the field.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yes, you know, gulls deserve to have an opportunity in
everything that they dream for themselves. Sports is one of that. Yeah,
and I hope that we can make a difference for them.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Yeah, it's so exciting. Oh my god, I can't wait
for us to figure out what our first sporting event is.
I know we have to go to a gig.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
You have you seen cricket?
Speaker 1 (50:57):
I have seen it on TV. I've never seen a live.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I think we should go and see a cricket game. Okay,
how about that?
Speaker 1 (51:03):
And we should also go watch some football. But when
I say football, I mean real soccer soccer, not the
backwards thing that US Americans did, which is steal the
international word for soccer and then make football handball like America.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Is a topic for another day, I know, but sometimes
that you guys can come up with.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
I don't know why we're like this. It's like our
our art, our democratic experiment. The core of it is
so gorgeous, and then there's just some things in the
flywheel that I'm like, we gotta we gotta be better
than this. Yeah, talking about being better, Yes, leading with
(51:47):
a better vision. Your book, I'm so happy where in
person so I can hold it up to camera. The
art is so beautiful. The book is so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
I just I want every I want everyone, not just
everygirl or every woman to read this book. I want
everyone to read this book. You've talked on this tour.
Not to sound like a total creep, but I've been
paying attention. You've talked on your tour about how the
book feels more honest. Yes, And you said something that
kills me because I know what you mean. I think, Okay,
(52:19):
you said it's more awkward, more me, and I was like,
oh my god, I feel like that. Lately. I feel
like I've come to a point where like I'm a
little more awkward and a little more myself. What does
that mean for you? What does this book mean for you?
Speaker 2 (52:33):
This book is the most personal reflections I have ever shared.
And of course I was put in the spotlight from
a very young age. People have come to know me
through headlines and titles that I have received. Even I
got to know myself through that, and I was like, Okay,
you know, maybe this is the life that I have
to embrace and internalize. But I realized that there's just
(52:55):
so much more to life. I wanted to grow in womanhood.
I knew that, I you know, I just cannot be
this fixed version that somebody else is expecting of me,
or I am under the assumption like it's all about perceptions,
you know, how we understand or receive these things. That
I could not allow myself to be funny again and
(53:18):
to feel loved or to make friends. I thought these
things are not for me. And I felt that maybe
I'm doing a disservice to my role as an activist
if I am am also exploring, like you know who
I am as a person. But on this journey through college,
through through my years after that, I have grown as
(53:39):
a person. I feel that I have more like diverse
and more rich emotions and feelings. I thought that I
survived the Aliban incident and I restarted a new life,
(53:59):
and I was so brave to do that. But when
I had the panic attack and I really lived the
whole attack experience, which I thought I didn't remember so much,
like it broke me down, like I could not be
the brave self that I thought I was. I was
in the dark. I needed my friends to come over
to my college room for a sleepover to help me
(54:22):
go to sleep. That's how scary it was. I could
not focus on my work I would call my husband
and say, I don't know what's happening. You know, at
the time he was not my husband, but I would
just call him. I was like, you know, can you
tell me what has happened. I was like, maybe you
have a bit more experience on what these drugs and
stuff are like. But in the end, you know, it
(54:43):
took me months. It took me years to to get
through it, to find my way through it, and I
still do the work that I truly believe in. Even
when I have a panic attack, it does not stop
me from my activism or Afghan caause it does not
stop me from standing up to the Taliban. And now
(55:04):
I think this is true brevery, this is true courage.
You know, I feel like I'm standing up now, right,
I'm standing up now.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Because you're bringing your whole self.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Yeah, that's really beautiful. I'm so happy for you.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
So I mean, big moment. You know, this is a
big thing to put in the world. It's a big
reconstitution and a reclamation really of so many parts of
yourself that perhaps you didn't think you were allowed to
be anymore. There's a lot of work that goes into that.
When you look forward, you know, at what's coming or
(55:45):
what you're hoping for. What feels like you're work in progress.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
I mean right now for me, it's my book door.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, I literally getting to the calendar.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
No, I'm actually excited. I'll be going to so many
different parts of the world, including in the US. I
am so excited to try everything local. I mean the
Chicago Deep Dish pizza.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Oh, I have a whole list of restaurants Chicago.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
And you know, I enjoy the weather in La and
San Francisco. I'm excited for everything. I can't wait to
go to so many parts of the US and meet
people and you know, hopefully like talk to people. I
would love to know how other people are, you know, feeling.
I love talking to young people, how they are defining
(56:31):
bravery and courage, how they are navigating their way through
challenges in life. So I hope that this helps us
start a new conversation. I'm sharing my most personal reflections.
I'm reintroducing myself because I want my true self to
be out there in the public eye. Yeah. This if
somebody wants to know me, then this is the true me.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Yeah, it's beautiful. Congratulations and thank you. For coming.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Oh, thank you so much, so wonderful to speak to
you and to be on your podcast.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Thank you, M.
Hosts And Creators
Sophia Bush
Bethany Joy Lenz
Robert Buckley
Hilarie Burton
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