May 17, 2024 • 33 mins
In this interview, Pastor Steven Furtick speaks candidly with author and speaker Donald Miller about relationships.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, this is Stephen Ferdick.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm the pastor of Elevation Church and this is our podcast.
I wanted to thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hope this inspires you. Hope it builds your faith.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hope it gives your perspective to see God is moving
in your life.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Enjoy the message.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I am here with New York Times bestselling author Don Miller.
Entrepreneur Don Miller, husband Don Miller. I loved the book
Scary Close.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
In fact, I read this book two times, and second
time reading it it was just as powerful as the
first time, and I thought it would be cool for
us to talk about some of the things that you
said in the book that resonated so deeply with me
about intimacy.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Well, the book is about intimacy.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Yeah, it's about the fear of, the overcoming the fear of,
and the challenges to have intimacy.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And you kind of talk about the enemies through the
lens of your own crisis of intimate See. Yeah, So
I love how you start the book. You're such a
vulnerable author. You know, I've told you I love your books,
and I like how right at the beginning of the
book you're in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. Right,
And you say I had to deal with my hang
ups or whatever you call them, you basically had to
(01:16):
deal with your dysfunction. So take us into that moment.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
So I got married at forty two, was never married before,
dated a bunch and had some great dating relationships and
some that were just no good. And they were no good.
Really my fault. I had this pattern that I would
date a gal. I would basically kind of come in
as the rescuer kind of guy. And there's this triangle
(01:39):
that psychologists talk about that rescuers are attracted to victims,
but then when they get into relationships with them, they
resent them, and then they begin to get angry because
they resent the factor in a relationship with a victim,
and so they begin to oppress them, which further makes
them a victim. It's a really weird loop that people
can get into. And I found myself into that a
couple times. And the last time I was in that,
(02:00):
in my late thirties, I broke off an engagement. I'd
taken it so far that we had gotten engaged and
then got out of it and great gal, but it
was probably the most damage that I'd caused sort of
someone emotionally and had some friends just coming and say, man,
you know, had good enough friends that they would come
to me and say, this is a pattern, and you.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Got to figure this out.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
And so I kind of went into a dark place, thought,
all right, I'm never gonna get married, I'm bad for people,
and blah blah blah and all that kind of stuff.
And my buddy Bob would call me every once in
a while and he would just remind me, you know,
you're actually good at relationships. Think about this one, think
about you know, your friendships. You're good at it. You
just got to figure this thing out. And he kind
of helped me through this season of you know, just
(02:43):
in relationship because my career was going great and you know,
these weren't like moral failing kind of stuff, you know,
it was just it was just like codependency and all
this stuff that I even know existed. And ended up
at a place called on Site Workshops, which is a
it's a it's kind of a therapeutic retreat center outside
of Nashville, about an hour outside of Nashville, and in
(03:06):
seven days you're supposed to get nine months of therapy
and all my songwriter friends loved going there and helped
them with their career.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
And I thought, well, I'll go. And it was eye opening.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
I mean, they explained so many of the things, the
patterns that I had in my relationships that were causing
dysfunction and causing her pain and me pain, and.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Came out of there. And it's not like I was fixed.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
But I knew I knew what was wrong and could
start building healthier relationships. And then right after that, and
not right of that, about a year after that, Betsy
and I met, and I was scared to death because
I thought, you know, I really liked this girl. I
really do feel different. I feel like I've healed a
(03:48):
lot and transformed and changed.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
If I just I hope it's true. I hope I
don't blow this one too. And we kept getting to
know each other. She's this really healthy, amazing gal, and
start of dating, and I moved to d C for
about eight months to court her if you will or whatever,
and and just it never became dramatic, and I'm like, wow,
it's possible, like you can actually transform as a human being.
(04:11):
And so it came time to write another book, The
publisher was kind of calling me and saying, what's it going.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
To be on?
Speaker 4 (04:18):
I thought, I think I'll start with this falling apart
and end.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
With this wedding, and you know.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
That's a beautiful story, and so that's what that's what
the book has come out of.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I mean, did you really get to a point of
thinking I am.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Bad for people? Yes?
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Yeah, I think there's you know, some of it was
stuff that I needed to work on, you know, stuff
that you know, not bad for people, but bad in
this context of relationships. Something's going on and I'm not
I'm not leaving these people better than I found them.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Is that because you're so good at being on a
stage or writing?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Was it hard for you to Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
There's a little bit of my personality that that you know,
you know, I really pride myself on being authentic and vulnerable,
and I realized that part of me priding myself on
being authentic and vulnerable was going into a cabin for
six weeks and writing something that made me look very
authentic and vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, that's the least authentic in the world.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That's actings.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
You're acting like you're not an.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Actor, A vulnerable vulnerability.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
I want to say it like a preacher.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
So but anytime we're hiding anything, it's all about fear,
fear of being owned, fear of being rejected, fear of
all that kind of stuff. And that's all intimacy is.
It's just is trusting somebody else to hopefully not hurt you.
That's all it is. And fear of intimacy is just
like that person could hurt me. And so I had
(05:52):
to learn not to do that. And Betsy proved to
be the most amazing companion. And I mean the first
time we went out, I laid it all out. Can
you imagine like the very first you know, date, if
you will, You're like, yeah, I just got out of
like psychological rehab because I've wreacked so many girls' lives
and it's been really hard. And I told myself it
(06:13):
wouldn't date for six months, and now six months is
over and I'd love to date you.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
What kind of I think, excused herself. Betsy sounds like
a special Betsy had been It.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Was such like guys who would never say that. She thought,
all right, I'll give you a month, you know, give
you a loth and then it just turned into something
really healthy and good.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, it was like endearing to her that you would
say that.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
I just think it wasn't a movie. I mean, it
really wasn't a play, right it was. It wasn't alive,
you know. It was like, if you're going to get
into this, you got to know not been great at
this in the past, but I really want to be.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, I told the church and one of the messages
that I preached in this series the other half. You
know a great dating line that I read somewhere. If
you want to get a really good dating line that
predicts the successive marriage, it would be.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
So, what kind of crazy here are you?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Because I know you're some category of crazy?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
What time? That's exactly what you have to find out
what the fear was?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
If fear is the enemy of vulnerability, do I understand
you correctly to say that ultimately all of our intimacy
is kept it baged by fear.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Well, I think so, I think.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
And there's a lack of trust that you know, fear
leads us to not trust somebody.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Trust.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Lack of trust leads us to not expose ourselves to somebody,
and that lack of exposure means we're not going to
be known.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
You know. I think we're really great.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
A lot of us are really great at letting people
know and being impressed by our act, by the character
that we put on, and it feels so good. It's like, well,
if I do this thing, you know it works.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
You call it a costume and there it's a costume.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Yeah, and that isn't fulfilling. Now here's the thing everybody
watching goes, I don't have that, And I would have
told you I don't have that.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
I would have told you that.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
The thing about going to this place on site is
you turn in your cell phone, you can't give anybody
your last name, and you're not allowed to tell anybody
what you do for a living. I thought, fine, whatever,
and I mean, steven, within ten minutes, I wanted to
tell somebody that I was the best selling author, because
reality is, it would have come up by now, and
(08:26):
now I can't bring it up. And I mean the
first three days where I felt like I felt naked,
I mean it really was saying, will anybody get to
know me and want to be my friend?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
For just me? And then it's amazing. One night, my little.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Group's about forty people at the workshop, but there were
ten people in my little groups broke up with Smarkers
and we had a game in the parlor over at
the Big House and it was a game night. We're
playing games and we're only got night four or some
kind of comfortable people there with me, but nobody knows
what anybody does, nobody knows who anybody is. And I
(09:04):
crack a joke and everybody starts laughing, and I crack
another Joe and every I mean, I had him rolling,
And it was like a drug was going into mind
because it was what it was was you matter. Now
you're dominating the room, you're entertaining, you matter. Like if
I can never be a Christian writer again, I'll just
(09:26):
start up a new career as a comedian. And what
was amazing is they took away my costume and it
took me four days to start building another costume.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Four days.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
So I still went, I don't trust that people aren't
gonna are gonna like me for who I actually am.
That's I think that's an understandable thing. I don't think
there's anything wrong with being a great entertainer. The last
thing we want is Steve Martin not being a great entertainer,
because we won't have a chance to laugh, or you
on stage won't have a chance to be inspired by
(09:58):
your sermons.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
The problem is when we when we use that as a.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Costume and and we bring it into intimate situations, and
you know, that's got a real short shelf life because
you just can't hide who you are for that long.
Sooner or later you got to go, all right, here
are my flaws. Uh, you're still gonna like me. And
I think there's two things. One we have to show
those falls, and two we have to choose people who
we can trust to actually follow through and like you.
(10:22):
So you have to choose because there's a significant part
of the population that literally will go, Nope, where did.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
That come from?
Speaker 4 (10:30):
For you?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
The need to wear that armor, to wear that costume to.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Be funny, Well, I hope it's just a human thing
and it's not just me, right, but you would.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Have to go it's you know, there's a there's.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
A funny passage in Genesis when the fall is described
like the fall of man.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Uh you know, ev see Apple, Adam, E see Apple.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
And in that passage God comes back and he talks
to this couple who have disobeyed him, and that whole
passage is about one thing, because it's I think it's
repeated four times. There's one theme to that chapter, and
it's who told you you were naked?
Speaker 3 (11:10):
And there's this idea that.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Here's the only human beings in the history of the
world so far who walked with God one on one,
And if you walk with God one on one, you're
that close.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
There's no separation between you.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
The only thing I can think is that there's something
about this external character that is pouring so much love
and acceptance into you just by their presence that you
are so not self aware because you're so fulfilled with
their love, you don't even know you're naked.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Now.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
I don't know about you, but when I'm naked, I
know I'm naked. There's never a point where I'm like,
what I think I'm naked?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Like I always know.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
I never get to the grocery store and think, Oh
I left my wife, Oh I left my clothes. It
never happens. That's a weird phenomenon. We're the only creatures
on the planet who do that. Wow, the only ones.
Nobody else. Like, I saw a poodle in the park
the other day wear in a sweater, I thought it
happened to them like some poodle ate an apple and
now they're wearing clothes. But it's you know, what is
it about a separation from God that makes us so
(12:14):
unbelievably narcissistic and self aware and afraid that we would
cover ourselves. So I think clothes are literally they're they're
built around shame.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
I'm not telling you everybody's educating. I'm not advocating that all.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
But then there don't know what kind of interview you think.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
There's all these other clothes that we wear too, you know,
personality traits that we've learned, skills that we've developed, and
we put on those, you know, to hide whatever vulnerability
or hard.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Thing we have that is the enemy of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I love when the guy in the book sat down
and drew some circles for you. He said, hey, basically,
I'm going to tell you why you need to be funny.
And he did this thing do the thing because to
me it was he said.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
It's got named Bill Loki, and Bill's a great psychologist.
And he said he just drew a circle and he said,
don here's how everybody starts. They start as self. And
he wrote the word self inside the circle. And then
he said, something happens at a different age for everybody,
but it's at a young age. And he said, something
happens you, you know, you mess up on the baseball field,
(13:13):
or your parents get a divorce, or you you realize
that your family's on food stamps, you know, and you
got a crush on the guy.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Whose dad's president of the bank, you know whatever.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
And he said, that brings, for the first time in
your life something called shame.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And he said, so you draw it.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
He drew a second circle around the first circle and
it just it just said shame. And we've all felt it,
we all remember it, you know, the first time you
probably experienced that. And he said, what happens is shame
is really scary. And so he drew a third circle
around the shame circle and he just wrote the word costume.
(13:52):
And he said, now you learned to wear this thing
and it was the thing that you know, and he said,
you know, it was that cateristic that you had that
you found that other people would clap for you or whatever.
They admired you for it. And he said, what would
that be? I mean, he didn't have to finish sense
and I said, smart, funny. You know these sorts of things,
the things that people would say about me, you know
(14:14):
if they got to know me, they're saying those things
because they got said about me really early on.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And I've just honed my craft and my ability to
wear that costume.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
And he said, this is all totally understandable, Like, no
judgment against anybody who tries to cover their pain with shame.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It's pain, right, he said.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
The problem is, in order to have intimacy that person,
are those people friends, whatever, they got to get to
know the self. Because you can't have intimacy with the
costume and you can't have intimacy with the shame. Wow,
So you got to take off the costume and you
got to deal with the shame, and then you can
be free to be yourself and then you can have intimacy.
What intimacy does is it nurtures us. It recharges us,
(14:56):
It gives us strength, It gives us the ability be honestly,
gives his ability act with other people, makes us great
husbands and wives, makes us great parents, helps us have
happy kids and healthy kids. Contributes to that, and it's
also how we connect with God, right, I mean, we
connect with God. Not God's not impressed with our costume.
He's impressed with ourself. That's the part he made right,
(15:19):
and we made these other things.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I love that I preached on Jacob one time, and
Jacob is, of course, you know, dressing in esau Us clothes,
pretending to be his brother to get the blessing and
it works.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Kind of is the weirdest story, weirdest story.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Weirdest story, that his mom's dressing him and his brothers.
And these are little boys anymore. These are older men,
you know, at this point in their life. But I
came to the realization that God can't bless who I
pretend to be. Yet the things you mentioned, smart, funny,
these aren't bad things.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
No. So where does it go from.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Being a gift that I'm smart, that I'm funny, to
being something that becomes a costume.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
How do I know that difference?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Well, I think when you're covering yourself up, when they
are hidden, things abalue not. I want to be real careful,
you know, standing up on stage and airing all your
dirty laundry is unwise.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
There are people who are simply out to get you right.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Or sitting on a date and sharing from the beginning.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Of all this.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
It is unwise that I'm six months out of rehab.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
That's right, Well, that worked for me.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
You know, not everybody is gets access to yourself. Yourself
is valuable, you know, it should be protected. But I
think when nobody gets access, that's where there's a lot
of trouble. And then trouble starts with just real loneliness,
you know, that's what it feels like.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
It you had caution against either extreme to say that
if everyone has access, that's a problem.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
If nobody has access, that's right.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
And a lot of people have the act of like
we talked about earlier, vulnerability or you know, and they
tend to become kind of a shock jock or whatever,
and it's a bit of a turn off at some
point because people realize that's a costume, like that person's
just so you know, but I think, you know, when
you really look at a phenomenally successful folks, there's always
(17:10):
almost always a wound that started that journey. And hopefully
the wound started the journey and then there was a
healing also, so they got the benefit of that fuel
of becoming really funny and famous or really smart and
solving problems. In physics or whatever, and then hopefully at
some point there was a healing process where they were
able to enjoy the gift that they were given but
(17:30):
also find intimacy.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And I feel like that's been that's.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Been my journey. It's been really blessed journey in that way.
But there was certainly a dark season.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
No, that's really powerful when you talk about the relational pattern.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
You say my.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Dating life was a death spiral.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Codependency and resentment. I wouldn't say that about you, but you.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Said that about you.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
All right, So if anybody, first of all, feels like
there's no hope for you, here's a happily married man
who says my dating life was a death spiral. If
someone resonates with that in their dating life, relational life,
how do they break that pattern? What is one thing
I can do because I'm overwhelmed by a death spiral?
What's the first move out of the death spiral?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Well?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
I have to go back and say there were probably
a few women I day that you could talk to
and say, don was great, give me a break. You know,
it wasn't that bad, but there were some relationships that
were really tended. Uh, this counselor at on site during
this time gave me this great analogy.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
She said, okay, look, she put three.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Pillows on the floor, like couch pillows, you know that
people could stand on, and three pillows and she said, okay,
don you stand on this pillow. And then she had
some other representative of our groups stand on this pillow. She goes, okay,
those are your pillows. They represent yourself. Right now, let's
say this person is really frustrating you in the relationship.
(18:51):
Your temptation is to cross the middle pillow and get
onto their pillow and try to change them. She said,
that's codependency. She said, that's not your pillow, that's their pillow.
Now what's the middle pillow mean? And she said, the
middle pillow is the relationship. So you both agree that
you were going to step on the middle pillow and
have a relationship, and both of you get equal say
(19:13):
and what you want that relationship to look like. So
everything is really about the relationship. But as soon as
she steps over on my pill and says I don't
want you to be this kind of man or whatever,
that's not what she should be saying.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
It's something I should think.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
What we should both be saying, is is this the
kind of relationship that I want? So rather than going
over here and saying I'm going to try to change you,
I go is this the kind of relationship that I want?
If not, I step back on my pillow and I
get out of the relationship. But at no point do
I ever get on her pillow. That's codependency. And of
course when you make that commitment in a marriage, you're saying,
whatever this relationship becomes, I'm in. I've done due diligence
(19:49):
here and I think we're going to be okay, but
there's no guarantee. But I'm never going to step on
this person's pillow. I was codependent. I was all over
this person's pillow, right. I want you to be this
so that we can have a good relationship.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
And it just never worked. It never worked.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
And now, I mean, you know, who knows, ten years,
I'll probably figure out some other flaw that I have
in relationships. But Bets and I just don't try to
change each other. We've never tried to change each other.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So get off the other person's pills.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Get off the other person's pillow.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Three people and say get off my pillow.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
And they'll tell you this. It's driving you crazy trying
to change that person. If the relationship isn't working, if
the dating relationship isn't working, even if the business relationship
isn't working, and you're all over there pillow and they're
all over your pillow, get out, get some health for yourself.
They can get some health there's and then ask yourself,
(20:46):
I want somebody that we both love standing on that pillow.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Do you agree with this?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I was sharing in one of the weeks of this
series about the magnifying glass and the mirror and both
their tools in marriage, because you choose what you magnify
sometimes when it comes to the issues in a relationship,
marriage or friendship, put down the magnifying glass, pick up
the mirror. I think that's the essence of what Jesus
was saying with the speck in your eye. You've got
(21:12):
a plank in your eye, and there's a speck in
his eye. In terms of in terms of taking responsibility
in a relationship, you say pretty strongly in the book
that the human lunging can't be met in another person.
The real human longing can't be met through another person,
can't be fulfilled through a human relationship. Whenever I preach
(21:35):
about relationships, people who may not be married in the
church kind of look at their watches.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
How many weeks? Is this the thing I go on?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Because you're going to tell me I don't need somebody.
And you have a wife and all of that. But
you know, you did a lot in your life before
getting married. So you're forty two years old when you
got married, and you had accomplished a lot. You wrote
a book that was read hundreds of thousands of times.
You made kind of an impact on the world. Would
you speak to that now as someone who maybe has
(22:05):
the credibility to say, I went through that season and
I accomplished some things, and I dealt with the loneliness.
What is your perspective on what you call the unfulfilled longing?
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Well, I'll say this, My years being single were you know,
I don't want to paint them as dark. They were fantastic.
I traveled the world and got all sorts of stuff done,
and probably stuff that I wouldn't have been able to do
if I were married because I was just devoted to
work and all that kind of stuff. So they were fantastic.
So anybody who's single listening. Just have a blast, I mean,
(22:39):
and get some work done because that's going to slow
down real quick, especially when you have kids.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Right. Yes, but I will say this in terms of.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
In terms of you know, you can't be fulfilled by
another person. I agree with that that is true, that
only God can ultimately fulfill us. But I also believe,
you know, there's this myth that Jesus will fulfill every
longing of our heart. I do believe that ultimately at
the wedding, feast of the land and even in today.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
But here's how he does it.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Jesus fulfills the longing for water and thirst with water.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Right. Jesus fulfills the longing for food with food. I
love that.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Jesus fulfills the longing for friends with friends, keep going.
Jesus fulfills the longing for a woman, guess what with
a woman. So all of that is how Jesus does it.
So here's what's beautiful about. You know, God is walking
with Adam. God is walking with Adam. There is no sin,
so Adam should be completely and totally fulfilled if God
(23:42):
fulfills every desire. But what does God say of Adam?
He's not complete for men to be alone. He's not
good for man to be alone. He's lonely. Well, how
can he be lonely? If God fulfills every desire of
the humans. I'll tell you why, because God put another
desire in that guy's chest for a woman.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Awesome, and he withheld the woman. And you say, okay, well,
then he gave him Eve. No he didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
God said, you're lonely. You cannot find a helpmate suitable.
Here's what I want you to do. Name the animals now,
pastor Stephen, if you were charged with naming the animals.
We all have told it in a children's way that
it's going to be an afternoon in when you say giraffe, monkey, whatever.
Even Darwin on the Galopagos Island took years just to
(24:27):
chart a small microcosm of the species. I think ten
years to one hundred years of no woman period. So
this longing, he didn't just take the longing and fulfill it.
He took the longing and made it worse. Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Made it worse. Wow, literally made the man wait and work.
Then he gives. Of course, he puts Adam to sleep.
As the story goes, takes from Adam a rib and
makes Eve. Adam wakes up and sees Eve. And it's
the very first place in the scriptures where you see
an ancient form of Hebrew poetry called parallelism. It says,
(25:04):
though the text has broken into song. So here he
sees this woman. He says, bone of my bone, and
flesh of my flesh. He broke in the song when
he saw her. Why did he do that? I'll tell
you why I did that. Because God made him wit
and name the animals. He had to work for it,
and he had to feel that longing. And you know
what I love about You know, I don't want to
(25:25):
discredit my wife, because she's.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
An amazing woman.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
But I guarantee you one of the reasons I cherish
my wife is because it was forty two years of
naming animals and I find and you think I'm going
to mess this up after forty two years.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
And so I think that's one of the problems with
sort of quick transactional relationships is it doesn't give us
the chance to build up the desire which is embedded
in pain. We tend to think pain or loneliness is
a bad thing, like he did something wrong, pain or
loneliness is a gift from God to help us appreciate
(25:58):
what eventually.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
We began to us when He blesses us.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You know, the people who are hurting from loneliness are
hearing that right now, and I hope they're comforted.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I hope so too.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, I know what the enemy is going to tell
them about that though it applies to other people but
not to you. You know that other people maybe their
loneliness is by design, but what you're going through, you
caused it.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
You know there's.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Something fought because we will always believe that we're the
exception to whatever gifts God wants to give.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
And I just I love this picture that you're painting
for us right now.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
That God allows the void and sometimes creates the void
so that he can fill it with himself. Now, that
doesn't mean that God is going to withhold every good,
perfect gift comes from above and all of that, we
believe it. But you're on the other side of this
now saying I wouldn't have known what to do with it,
and I wouldn't have known how to cherish it if
(26:54):
I hadn't had to wait for it.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
My wedding day was the happiest day of my life.
I mean, it just didn't. I was never sure what
was going to happen. And we didn't rush into it.
I mean we you know, we took a long time
and dated and you know, did all that stuff, and
but that stuff has to be earned. You can't you know,
you just can't rush a climactic scene.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
You can't rush it in a story. You have to
have the tension.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
If you don't have the tension, the climactic scene is
going to be a dud, you know what.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
I like.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
We don't think of our flaws as the glue that
binds us to the people we love, but they are
grace only sticks to our imperfections.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
That's cool in that.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
True relationships that you get to know somebody and it's
like the fifth or sixth time to hang out with them,
and they just share some sort of insecurity and you
suddenly feel closer to them.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, you think it's going to drive them away and
all of a sudden you find out the thing that
you are trying to hide.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Yeah, and you can't use it as a strategic tool.
It has to be sincere right. We can't go well
long gonna be vulnerable in order to smell that out.
But what happens in those things, I think is that
essentially between you and I, what happens when I'm vulnerable
and it creates a bond between us, is in our relationship,
what I've done by being vulnerable is I've handed you
(28:09):
a gun. I've literally handed you a weapon, because by
being vulnerable, you now have information that.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
You can use to hurt me. So what I did
was I just gave you power in the relationship.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
And when I give you power in the relationship, it
makes you more comfortable, and you think, you know, I'm
never going to use this gun.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
But I really like this guy because.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
He's not holding anything, and honestly, if he does anything
to me, maybe, So I.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Wonder about like in our marriages.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
You know, my wife has so many weapons to use
against me. I mean, she could literally, in one sentence
or one paragraph calls me five years of very dark pain.
She's got that, and you know how good it feels
that she never uses it. It just increases my trust
(28:58):
in God, in the world and the existence of love
and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And I've got stuff on her.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
I mean, I know what she'd be afraid of, and
those kinds of things, and I could play those games,
and man, I would never do that. We are at
the most loving truce right So here we are imagine
us just hugging each other and there's all these weapons.
It's just laid down by now, and we're not going
to pick them up.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
It's kind of the picture of our relationship with God, then.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Isn't it. Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Because if anybody has their finger on the nuclear button,
that could plow the whole thing up it's hill.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
And he's not going to do it.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Not only is he not going to do it, but
he's going to sacrifice himself so.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
We don't have to be destroyed. That's right, That's beautiful. Man.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Okay, I could talk to you about this all day,
but I want to I want to kind of finish
with a thought.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I'm not saying this is deep, but you end your book.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Talking about kind of the beginning of your marriage.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
How long have you been married now? Three years? Yeah,
three years in November.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
How would the book end differently if you were ending
it today then it ended years ago?
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Well, you know, we'd spent the first year of marriage,
both of us kind of circling each other. It was
really hilarious, and we just kept Betty and I can
talk about anything, so we just kept talking about when
is the other shoe going to drop? Like, when is
this going to go south? It has to like it
just can't be. Then we had this real beautiful paradigm
(30:19):
shift of what if God is good? Like what if
God just says I actually want you to be happy?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Like it was.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
My whole design was that you guys would be not
everyday it's going to be perfect.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Betsy and I will argue sometimes. So we just made
this commitment.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
That Betsy and I are going to keep the drama
outside of the marriage. So we did this thing before
we got married. I wrote down a marriage plan. I
actually took a ninety day business plan. I was at
a business conference and crossed out the word business and
wrote the word marriage.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
And I just thought it would be fun.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
She's just so attractive, and I wrote, well, what's the theme, right?
And I wrote, well, we want to have a restorative marriage,
And you know, I just put down his principles and
I took a picture of it to her and she
was actually mad at me that day. Took a picture
to it, and I texted to her and then I
felt like, oh, she's gonna kill me.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Like literally, I just turned our marriage into a.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Business strategy, like we're gonna franchise our kids, right, And
she even when back shit down, this is exactly what
I needed to hear, and it was It was because
we were in a place where I was taking her
from her friends, I was taking her from her career
and all she was She was so freaked out because.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
She was just like, where are you taking me.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
You're taking me to a wedding, but I don't know
what's on the other side of that wedding.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
So this little document is saying, here's what we're going
to be.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
So we made this decision before we got married that
we would have a restorative marriage. Now that can change,
we can change the theme of our marriage, but we
haven't yet.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
And we're three years in.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
What that meant for us is when you walk in
the door of our home, when Betsy walks in the
door or I walk in the door, we have an agreement.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Life is hard.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Things outside this door, these doors are difficult, and when
you walk through these doors, we will recharge each other.
We will sow no unkind words love it. I'm here
to restore you, Stephen. We will encounter very difficult times.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
We will.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
It's not going to keep going like this. There's going
to be painful stuff and I'm not naive. God will
get us through that and he will redeem that story,
just tike. He redeemed these stories now. But the difference
is I'll go into those painful times hopefully with more
trust and going. You know, what brought me through the
last one, he'll bring us through this one.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
We're gonna be okay. Bob told you you were a
great at relationship. Do you believe him now?
Speaker 4 (32:25):
I believe him more than I did at the time.
And that's kind of how the book ends because the
last time he said it to me, he would say
it every month or so for years, two to three years,
and he actually did our wedding, and the last time
he said it to me, he's never said it since.
You know, he just looked at me and said, don
you're good at relationships proof.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
You know, here's your wedding proof.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
And I think we need those friends, don't We Just
to keep going, Hey, Ma, you'relying yourself.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
You're lying yourself. I know you screwed up, but you're
lying yourself. Don't believe that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Thanks Ben, thank you for joining us. Special thanks to
those of you who give generously to this ministry.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Is because of you that this ministry is possible.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
You can click the link in the description to give now,
or visit Elevationchurch dot org slash podcast for more information
and if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
You can share it with your friends.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
You can click the share button, take a screenshot and
share it on your social stories and tag us at
Elevation Church.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Thanks again for listening. God bless you
Hey, this is Stephen Ferdick.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm the pastor of Elevation Church and this is our podcast.
I wanted to thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hope this inspires you. Hope it builds your faith.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hope it gives your perspective to see God is moving
in your life.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Enjoy the message.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I am here with New York Times bestselling author Don Miller.
Entrepreneur Don Miller, husband Don Miller. I loved the book
Scary Close.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
In fact, I read this book two times, and second
time reading it it was just as powerful as the
first time, and I thought it would be cool for
us to talk about some of the things that you
said in the book that resonated so deeply with me
about intimacy.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Well, the book is about intimacy.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Yeah, it's about the fear of, the overcoming the fear of,
and the challenges to have intimacy.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And you kind of talk about the enemies through the
lens of your own crisis of intimate See. Yeah, So
I love how you start the book. You're such a
vulnerable author. You know, I've told you I love your books,
and I like how right at the beginning of the
book you're in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. Right,
And you say I had to deal with my hang
ups or whatever you call them, you basically had to
(01:16):
deal with your dysfunction. So take us into that moment.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
So I got married at forty two, was never married before,
dated a bunch and had some great dating relationships and
some that were just no good. And they were no good.
Really my fault. I had this pattern that I would
date a gal. I would basically kind of come in
as the rescuer kind of guy. And there's this triangle
(01:39):
that psychologists talk about that rescuers are attracted to victims,
but then when they get into relationships with them, they
resent them, and then they begin to get angry because
they resent the factor in a relationship with a victim,
and so they begin to oppress them, which further makes
them a victim. It's a really weird loop that people
can get into. And I found myself into that a
couple times. And the last time I was in that,
(02:00):
in my late thirties, I broke off an engagement. I'd
taken it so far that we had gotten engaged and
then got out of it and great gal, but it
was probably the most damage that I'd caused sort of
someone emotionally and had some friends just coming and say, man,
you know, had good enough friends that they would come
to me and say, this is a pattern, and you.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Got to figure this out.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
And so I kind of went into a dark place, thought,
all right, I'm never gonna get married, I'm bad for people,
and blah blah blah and all that kind of stuff.
And my buddy Bob would call me every once in
a while and he would just remind me, you know,
you're actually good at relationships. Think about this one, think
about you know, your friendships. You're good at it. You
just got to figure this thing out. And he kind
of helped me through this season of you know, just
(02:43):
in relationship because my career was going great and you know,
these weren't like moral failing kind of stuff, you know,
it was just it was just like codependency and all
this stuff that I even know existed. And ended up
at a place called on Site Workshops, which is a
it's a it's kind of a therapeutic retreat center outside
of Nashville, about an hour outside of Nashville, and in
(03:06):
seven days you're supposed to get nine months of therapy
and all my songwriter friends loved going there and helped
them with their career.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
And I thought, well, I'll go. And it was eye opening.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
I mean, they explained so many of the things, the
patterns that I had in my relationships that were causing
dysfunction and causing her pain and me pain, and.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Came out of there. And it's not like I was fixed.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
But I knew I knew what was wrong and could
start building healthier relationships. And then right after that, and
not right of that, about a year after that, Betsy
and I met, and I was scared to death because
I thought, you know, I really liked this girl. I
really do feel different. I feel like I've healed a
(03:48):
lot and transformed and changed.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
If I just I hope it's true. I hope I
don't blow this one too. And we kept getting to
know each other. She's this really healthy, amazing gal, and
start of dating, and I moved to d C for
about eight months to court her if you will or whatever,
and and just it never became dramatic, and I'm like, wow,
it's possible, like you can actually transform as a human being.
(04:11):
And so it came time to write another book, The
publisher was kind of calling me and saying, what's it going.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
To be on?
Speaker 4 (04:18):
I thought, I think I'll start with this falling apart
and end.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
With this wedding, and you know.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
That's a beautiful story, and so that's what that's what
the book has come out of.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I mean, did you really get to a point of
thinking I am.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Bad for people? Yes?
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Yeah, I think there's you know, some of it was
stuff that I needed to work on, you know, stuff
that you know, not bad for people, but bad in
this context of relationships. Something's going on and I'm not
I'm not leaving these people better than I found them.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Is that because you're so good at being on a
stage or writing?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Was it hard for you to Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
There's a little bit of my personality that that you know,
you know, I really pride myself on being authentic and vulnerable,
and I realized that part of me priding myself on
being authentic and vulnerable was going into a cabin for
six weeks and writing something that made me look very
authentic and vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, that's the least authentic in the world.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That's actings.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
You're acting like you're not an.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Actor, A vulnerable vulnerability.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
I want to say it like a preacher.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
So but anytime we're hiding anything, it's all about fear,
fear of being owned, fear of being rejected, fear of
all that kind of stuff. And that's all intimacy is.
It's just is trusting somebody else to hopefully not hurt you.
That's all it is. And fear of intimacy is just
like that person could hurt me. And so I had
(05:52):
to learn not to do that. And Betsy proved to
be the most amazing companion. And I mean the first
time we went out, I laid it all out. Can
you imagine like the very first you know, date, if
you will, You're like, yeah, I just got out of
like psychological rehab because I've wreacked so many girls' lives
and it's been really hard. And I told myself it
(06:13):
wouldn't date for six months, and now six months is
over and I'd love to date you.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
What kind of I think, excused herself. Betsy sounds like
a special Betsy had been It.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Was such like guys who would never say that. She thought,
all right, I'll give you a month, you know, give
you a loth and then it just turned into something
really healthy and good.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, it was like endearing to her that you would
say that.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
I just think it wasn't a movie. I mean, it
really wasn't a play, right it was. It wasn't alive,
you know. It was like, if you're going to get
into this, you got to know not been great at
this in the past, but I really want to be.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, I told the church and one of the messages
that I preached in this series the other half. You
know a great dating line that I read somewhere. If
you want to get a really good dating line that
predicts the successive marriage, it would be.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
So, what kind of crazy here are you?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Because I know you're some category of crazy?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
What time? That's exactly what you have to find out
what the fear was?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
If fear is the enemy of vulnerability, do I understand
you correctly to say that ultimately all of our intimacy
is kept it baged by fear.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Well, I think so, I think.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
And there's a lack of trust that you know, fear
leads us to not trust somebody.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Trust.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Lack of trust leads us to not expose ourselves to somebody,
and that lack of exposure means we're not going to
be known.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
You know. I think we're really great.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
A lot of us are really great at letting people
know and being impressed by our act, by the character
that we put on, and it feels so good. It's like, well,
if I do this thing, you know it works.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
You call it a costume and there it's a costume.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Yeah, and that isn't fulfilling. Now here's the thing everybody
watching goes, I don't have that, And I would have
told you I don't have that.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
I would have told you that.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
The thing about going to this place on site is
you turn in your cell phone, you can't give anybody
your last name, and you're not allowed to tell anybody
what you do for a living. I thought, fine, whatever,
and I mean, steven, within ten minutes, I wanted to
tell somebody that I was the best selling author, because
reality is, it would have come up by now, and
(08:26):
now I can't bring it up. And I mean the
first three days where I felt like I felt naked,
I mean it really was saying, will anybody get to
know me and want to be my friend?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
For just me? And then it's amazing. One night, my little.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Group's about forty people at the workshop, but there were
ten people in my little groups broke up with Smarkers
and we had a game in the parlor over at
the Big House and it was a game night. We're
playing games and we're only got night four or some
kind of comfortable people there with me, but nobody knows
what anybody does, nobody knows who anybody is. And I
(09:04):
crack a joke and everybody starts laughing, and I crack
another Joe and every I mean, I had him rolling,
And it was like a drug was going into mind
because it was what it was was you matter. Now
you're dominating the room, you're entertaining, you matter. Like if
I can never be a Christian writer again, I'll just
(09:26):
start up a new career as a comedian. And what
was amazing is they took away my costume and it
took me four days to start building another costume.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Four days.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
So I still went, I don't trust that people aren't
gonna are gonna like me for who I actually am.
That's I think that's an understandable thing. I don't think
there's anything wrong with being a great entertainer. The last
thing we want is Steve Martin not being a great entertainer,
because we won't have a chance to laugh, or you
on stage won't have a chance to be inspired by
(09:58):
your sermons.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
The problem is when we when we use that as a.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Costume and and we bring it into intimate situations, and
you know, that's got a real short shelf life because
you just can't hide who you are for that long.
Sooner or later you got to go, all right, here
are my flaws. Uh, you're still gonna like me. And
I think there's two things. One we have to show
those falls, and two we have to choose people who
we can trust to actually follow through and like you.
(10:22):
So you have to choose because there's a significant part
of the population that literally will go, Nope, where did.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
That come from?
Speaker 4 (10:30):
For you?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
The need to wear that armor, to wear that costume to.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Be funny, Well, I hope it's just a human thing
and it's not just me, right, but you would.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Have to go it's you know, there's a there's.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
A funny passage in Genesis when the fall is described
like the fall of man.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Uh you know, ev see Apple, Adam, E see Apple.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
And in that passage God comes back and he talks
to this couple who have disobeyed him, and that whole
passage is about one thing, because it's I think it's
repeated four times. There's one theme to that chapter, and
it's who told you you were naked?
Speaker 3 (11:10):
And there's this idea that.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Here's the only human beings in the history of the
world so far who walked with God one on one,
And if you walk with God one on one, you're
that close.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
There's no separation between you.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
The only thing I can think is that there's something
about this external character that is pouring so much love
and acceptance into you just by their presence that you
are so not self aware because you're so fulfilled with
their love, you don't even know you're naked.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Now.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
I don't know about you, but when I'm naked, I
know I'm naked. There's never a point where I'm like,
what I think I'm naked?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Like I always know.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
I never get to the grocery store and think, Oh
I left my wife, Oh I left my clothes. It
never happens. That's a weird phenomenon. We're the only creatures
on the planet who do that. Wow, the only ones.
Nobody else. Like, I saw a poodle in the park
the other day wear in a sweater, I thought it
happened to them like some poodle ate an apple and
now they're wearing clothes. But it's you know, what is
it about a separation from God that makes us so
(12:14):
unbelievably narcissistic and self aware and afraid that we would
cover ourselves. So I think clothes are literally they're they're
built around shame.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
I'm not telling you everybody's educating. I'm not advocating that all.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
But then there don't know what kind of interview you think.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
There's all these other clothes that we wear too, you know,
personality traits that we've learned, skills that we've developed, and
we put on those, you know, to hide whatever vulnerability
or hard.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Thing we have that is the enemy of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I love when the guy in the book sat down
and drew some circles for you. He said, hey, basically,
I'm going to tell you why you need to be funny.
And he did this thing do the thing because to
me it was he said.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
It's got named Bill Loki, and Bill's a great psychologist.
And he said he just drew a circle and he said,
don here's how everybody starts. They start as self. And
he wrote the word self inside the circle. And then
he said, something happens at a different age for everybody,
but it's at a young age. And he said, something
happens you, you know, you mess up on the baseball field,
(13:13):
or your parents get a divorce, or you you realize
that your family's on food stamps, you know, and you
got a crush on the guy.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Whose dad's president of the bank, you know whatever.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
And he said, that brings, for the first time in
your life something called shame.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And he said, so you draw it.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
He drew a second circle around the first circle and
it just it just said shame. And we've all felt it,
we all remember it, you know, the first time you
probably experienced that. And he said, what happens is shame
is really scary. And so he drew a third circle
around the shame circle and he just wrote the word costume.
(13:52):
And he said, now you learned to wear this thing
and it was the thing that you know, and he said,
you know, it was that cateristic that you had that
you found that other people would clap for you or whatever.
They admired you for it. And he said, what would
that be? I mean, he didn't have to finish sense
and I said, smart, funny. You know these sorts of things,
the things that people would say about me, you know
(14:14):
if they got to know me, they're saying those things
because they got said about me really early on.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And I've just honed my craft and my ability to
wear that costume.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
And he said, this is all totally understandable, Like, no
judgment against anybody who tries to cover their pain with shame.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It's pain, right, he said.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
The problem is, in order to have intimacy that person,
are those people friends, whatever, they got to get to
know the self. Because you can't have intimacy with the
costume and you can't have intimacy with the shame. Wow,
So you got to take off the costume and you
got to deal with the shame, and then you can
be free to be yourself and then you can have intimacy.
What intimacy does is it nurtures us. It recharges us,
(14:56):
It gives us strength, It gives us the ability be honestly,
gives his ability act with other people, makes us great
husbands and wives, makes us great parents, helps us have
happy kids and healthy kids. Contributes to that, and it's
also how we connect with God, right, I mean, we
connect with God. Not God's not impressed with our costume.
He's impressed with ourself. That's the part he made right,
(15:19):
and we made these other things.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I love that I preached on Jacob one time, and
Jacob is, of course, you know, dressing in esau Us clothes,
pretending to be his brother to get the blessing and
it works.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Kind of is the weirdest story, weirdest story.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Weirdest story, that his mom's dressing him and his brothers.
And these are little boys anymore. These are older men,
you know, at this point in their life. But I
came to the realization that God can't bless who I
pretend to be. Yet the things you mentioned, smart, funny,
these aren't bad things.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
No. So where does it go from.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Being a gift that I'm smart, that I'm funny, to
being something that becomes a costume.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
How do I know that difference?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Well, I think when you're covering yourself up, when they
are hidden, things abalue not. I want to be real careful,
you know, standing up on stage and airing all your
dirty laundry is unwise.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
There are people who are simply out to get you right.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Or sitting on a date and sharing from the beginning.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Of all this.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
It is unwise that I'm six months out of rehab.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
That's right, Well, that worked for me.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
You know, not everybody is gets access to yourself. Yourself
is valuable, you know, it should be protected. But I
think when nobody gets access, that's where there's a lot
of trouble. And then trouble starts with just real loneliness,
you know, that's what it feels like.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
It you had caution against either extreme to say that
if everyone has access, that's a problem.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
If nobody has access, that's right.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
And a lot of people have the act of like
we talked about earlier, vulnerability or you know, and they
tend to become kind of a shock jock or whatever,
and it's a bit of a turn off at some
point because people realize that's a costume, like that person's
just so you know, but I think, you know, when
you really look at a phenomenally successful folks, there's always
(17:10):
almost always a wound that started that journey. And hopefully
the wound started the journey and then there was a
healing also, so they got the benefit of that fuel
of becoming really funny and famous or really smart and
solving problems. In physics or whatever, and then hopefully at
some point there was a healing process where they were
able to enjoy the gift that they were given but
(17:30):
also find intimacy.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And I feel like that's been that's.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Been my journey. It's been really blessed journey in that way.
But there was certainly a dark season.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
No, that's really powerful when you talk about the relational pattern.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
You say my.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Dating life was a death spiral.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Codependency and resentment. I wouldn't say that about you, but you.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Said that about you.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
All right, So if anybody, first of all, feels like
there's no hope for you, here's a happily married man
who says my dating life was a death spiral. If
someone resonates with that in their dating life, relational life,
how do they break that pattern? What is one thing
I can do because I'm overwhelmed by a death spiral?
What's the first move out of the death spiral?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Well?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
I have to go back and say there were probably
a few women I day that you could talk to
and say, don was great, give me a break. You know,
it wasn't that bad, but there were some relationships that
were really tended. Uh, this counselor at on site during
this time gave me this great analogy.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
She said, okay, look, she put three.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Pillows on the floor, like couch pillows, you know that
people could stand on, and three pillows and she said, okay,
don you stand on this pillow. And then she had
some other representative of our groups stand on this pillow. She goes, okay,
those are your pillows. They represent yourself. Right now, let's
say this person is really frustrating you in the relationship.
(18:51):
Your temptation is to cross the middle pillow and get
onto their pillow and try to change them. She said,
that's codependency. She said, that's not your pillow, that's their pillow.
Now what's the middle pillow mean? And she said, the
middle pillow is the relationship. So you both agree that
you were going to step on the middle pillow and
have a relationship, and both of you get equal say
(19:13):
and what you want that relationship to look like. So
everything is really about the relationship. But as soon as
she steps over on my pill and says I don't
want you to be this kind of man or whatever,
that's not what she should be saying.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
It's something I should think.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
What we should both be saying, is is this the
kind of relationship that I want? So rather than going
over here and saying I'm going to try to change you,
I go is this the kind of relationship that I want?
If not, I step back on my pillow and I
get out of the relationship. But at no point do
I ever get on her pillow. That's codependency. And of
course when you make that commitment in a marriage, you're saying,
whatever this relationship becomes, I'm in. I've done due diligence
(19:49):
here and I think we're going to be okay, but
there's no guarantee. But I'm never going to step on
this person's pillow. I was codependent. I was all over
this person's pillow, right. I want you to be this
so that we can have a good relationship.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
And it just never worked. It never worked.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
And now, I mean, you know, who knows, ten years,
I'll probably figure out some other flaw that I have
in relationships. But Bets and I just don't try to
change each other. We've never tried to change each other.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So get off the other person's pills.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Get off the other person's pillow.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Three people and say get off my pillow.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
And they'll tell you this. It's driving you crazy trying
to change that person. If the relationship isn't working, if
the dating relationship isn't working, even if the business relationship
isn't working, and you're all over there pillow and they're
all over your pillow, get out, get some health for yourself.
They can get some health there's and then ask yourself,
(20:46):
I want somebody that we both love standing on that pillow.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Do you agree with this?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I was sharing in one of the weeks of this
series about the magnifying glass and the mirror and both
their tools in marriage, because you choose what you magnify
sometimes when it comes to the issues in a relationship,
marriage or friendship, put down the magnifying glass, pick up
the mirror. I think that's the essence of what Jesus
was saying with the speck in your eye. You've got
(21:12):
a plank in your eye, and there's a speck in
his eye. In terms of in terms of taking responsibility
in a relationship, you say pretty strongly in the book
that the human lunging can't be met in another person.
The real human longing can't be met through another person,
can't be fulfilled through a human relationship. Whenever I preach
(21:35):
about relationships, people who may not be married in the
church kind of look at their watches.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
How many weeks? Is this the thing I go on?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Because you're going to tell me I don't need somebody.
And you have a wife and all of that. But
you know, you did a lot in your life before
getting married. So you're forty two years old when you
got married, and you had accomplished a lot. You wrote
a book that was read hundreds of thousands of times.
You made kind of an impact on the world. Would
you speak to that now as someone who maybe has
(22:05):
the credibility to say, I went through that season and
I accomplished some things, and I dealt with the loneliness.
What is your perspective on what you call the unfulfilled longing?
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Well, I'll say this, My years being single were you know,
I don't want to paint them as dark. They were fantastic.
I traveled the world and got all sorts of stuff done,
and probably stuff that I wouldn't have been able to do
if I were married because I was just devoted to
work and all that kind of stuff. So they were fantastic.
So anybody who's single listening. Just have a blast, I mean,
(22:39):
and get some work done because that's going to slow
down real quick, especially when you have kids.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Right. Yes, but I will say this in terms of.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
In terms of you know, you can't be fulfilled by
another person. I agree with that that is true, that
only God can ultimately fulfill us. But I also believe,
you know, there's this myth that Jesus will fulfill every
longing of our heart. I do believe that ultimately at
the wedding, feast of the land and even in today.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
But here's how he does it.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Jesus fulfills the longing for water and thirst with water.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Right. Jesus fulfills the longing for food with food. I
love that.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Jesus fulfills the longing for friends with friends, keep going.
Jesus fulfills the longing for a woman, guess what with
a woman. So all of that is how Jesus does it.
So here's what's beautiful about. You know, God is walking
with Adam. God is walking with Adam. There is no sin,
so Adam should be completely and totally fulfilled if God
(23:42):
fulfills every desire. But what does God say of Adam?
He's not complete for men to be alone. He's not
good for man to be alone. He's lonely. Well, how
can he be lonely? If God fulfills every desire of
the humans. I'll tell you why, because God put another
desire in that guy's chest for a woman.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Awesome, and he withheld the woman. And you say, okay, well,
then he gave him Eve. No he didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
God said, you're lonely. You cannot find a helpmate suitable.
Here's what I want you to do. Name the animals now,
pastor Stephen, if you were charged with naming the animals.
We all have told it in a children's way that
it's going to be an afternoon in when you say giraffe, monkey, whatever.
Even Darwin on the Galopagos Island took years just to
(24:27):
chart a small microcosm of the species. I think ten
years to one hundred years of no woman period. So
this longing, he didn't just take the longing and fulfill it.
He took the longing and made it worse. Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Made it worse. Wow, literally made the man wait and work.
Then he gives. Of course, he puts Adam to sleep.
As the story goes, takes from Adam a rib and
makes Eve. Adam wakes up and sees Eve. And it's
the very first place in the scriptures where you see
an ancient form of Hebrew poetry called parallelism. It says,
(25:04):
though the text has broken into song. So here he
sees this woman. He says, bone of my bone, and
flesh of my flesh. He broke in the song when
he saw her. Why did he do that? I'll tell
you why I did that. Because God made him wit
and name the animals. He had to work for it,
and he had to feel that longing. And you know
what I love about You know, I don't want to
(25:25):
discredit my wife, because she's.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
An amazing woman.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
But I guarantee you one of the reasons I cherish
my wife is because it was forty two years of
naming animals and I find and you think I'm going
to mess this up after forty two years.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
And so I think that's one of the problems with
sort of quick transactional relationships is it doesn't give us
the chance to build up the desire which is embedded
in pain. We tend to think pain or loneliness is
a bad thing, like he did something wrong, pain or
loneliness is a gift from God to help us appreciate
(25:58):
what eventually.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
We began to us when He blesses us.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You know, the people who are hurting from loneliness are
hearing that right now, and I hope they're comforted.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I hope so too.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, I know what the enemy is going to tell
them about that though it applies to other people but
not to you. You know that other people maybe their
loneliness is by design, but what you're going through, you
caused it.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
You know there's.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Something fought because we will always believe that we're the
exception to whatever gifts God wants to give.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
And I just I love this picture that you're painting
for us right now.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
That God allows the void and sometimes creates the void
so that he can fill it with himself. Now, that
doesn't mean that God is going to withhold every good,
perfect gift comes from above and all of that, we
believe it. But you're on the other side of this
now saying I wouldn't have known what to do with it,
and I wouldn't have known how to cherish it if
(26:54):
I hadn't had to wait for it.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
My wedding day was the happiest day of my life.
I mean, it just didn't. I was never sure what
was going to happen. And we didn't rush into it.
I mean we you know, we took a long time
and dated and you know, did all that stuff, and
but that stuff has to be earned. You can't you know,
you just can't rush a climactic scene.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
You can't rush it in a story. You have to
have the tension.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
If you don't have the tension, the climactic scene is
going to be a dud, you know what.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
I like.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
We don't think of our flaws as the glue that
binds us to the people we love, but they are
grace only sticks to our imperfections.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
That's cool in that.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
True relationships that you get to know somebody and it's
like the fifth or sixth time to hang out with them,
and they just share some sort of insecurity and you
suddenly feel closer to them.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, you think it's going to drive them away and
all of a sudden you find out the thing that
you are trying to hide.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Yeah, and you can't use it as a strategic tool.
It has to be sincere right. We can't go well
long gonna be vulnerable in order to smell that out.
But what happens in those things, I think is that
essentially between you and I, what happens when I'm vulnerable
and it creates a bond between us, is in our relationship,
what I've done by being vulnerable is I've handed you
(28:09):
a gun. I've literally handed you a weapon, because by
being vulnerable, you now have information that.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
You can use to hurt me. So what I did
was I just gave you power in the relationship.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
And when I give you power in the relationship, it
makes you more comfortable, and you think, you know, I'm
never going to use this gun.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
But I really like this guy because.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
He's not holding anything, and honestly, if he does anything
to me, maybe, So I.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Wonder about like in our marriages.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
You know, my wife has so many weapons to use
against me. I mean, she could literally, in one sentence
or one paragraph calls me five years of very dark pain.
She's got that, and you know how good it feels
that she never uses it. It just increases my trust
(28:58):
in God, in the world and the existence of love
and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And I've got stuff on her.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
I mean, I know what she'd be afraid of, and
those kinds of things, and I could play those games,
and man, I would never do that. We are at
the most loving truce right So here we are imagine
us just hugging each other and there's all these weapons.
It's just laid down by now, and we're not going
to pick them up.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
It's kind of the picture of our relationship with God, then.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Isn't it. Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Because if anybody has their finger on the nuclear button,
that could plow the whole thing up it's hill.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
And he's not going to do it.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Not only is he not going to do it, but
he's going to sacrifice himself so.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
We don't have to be destroyed. That's right, That's beautiful. Man.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Okay, I could talk to you about this all day,
but I want to I want to kind of finish
with a thought.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I'm not saying this is deep, but you end your book.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Talking about kind of the beginning of your marriage.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
How long have you been married now? Three years? Yeah,
three years in November.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
How would the book end differently if you were ending
it today then it ended years ago?
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Well, you know, we'd spent the first year of marriage,
both of us kind of circling each other. It was
really hilarious, and we just kept Betty and I can
talk about anything, so we just kept talking about when
is the other shoe going to drop? Like, when is
this going to go south? It has to like it
just can't be. Then we had this real beautiful paradigm
(30:19):
shift of what if God is good? Like what if
God just says I actually want you to be happy?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Like it was.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
My whole design was that you guys would be not
everyday it's going to be perfect.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Betsy and I will argue sometimes. So we just made
this commitment.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
That Betsy and I are going to keep the drama
outside of the marriage. So we did this thing before
we got married. I wrote down a marriage plan. I
actually took a ninety day business plan. I was at
a business conference and crossed out the word business and
wrote the word marriage.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
And I just thought it would be fun.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
She's just so attractive, and I wrote, well, what's the theme, right?
And I wrote, well, we want to have a restorative marriage,
And you know, I just put down his principles and
I took a picture of it to her and she
was actually mad at me that day. Took a picture
to it, and I texted to her and then I
felt like, oh, she's gonna kill me.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Like literally, I just turned our marriage into a.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Business strategy, like we're gonna franchise our kids, right, And
she even when back shit down, this is exactly what
I needed to hear, and it was It was because
we were in a place where I was taking her
from her friends, I was taking her from her career
and all she was She was so freaked out because.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
She was just like, where are you taking me.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
You're taking me to a wedding, but I don't know
what's on the other side of that wedding.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
So this little document is saying, here's what we're going
to be.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
So we made this decision before we got married that
we would have a restorative marriage. Now that can change,
we can change the theme of our marriage, but we
haven't yet.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
And we're three years in.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
What that meant for us is when you walk in
the door of our home, when Betsy walks in the
door or I walk in the door, we have an agreement.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Life is hard.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Things outside this door, these doors are difficult, and when
you walk through these doors, we will recharge each other.
We will sow no unkind words love it. I'm here
to restore you, Stephen. We will encounter very difficult times.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
We will.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
It's not going to keep going like this. There's going
to be painful stuff and I'm not naive. God will
get us through that and he will redeem that story,
just tike. He redeemed these stories now. But the difference
is I'll go into those painful times hopefully with more
trust and going. You know, what brought me through the
last one, he'll bring us through this one.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
We're gonna be okay. Bob told you you were a
great at relationship. Do you believe him now?
Speaker 4 (32:25):
I believe him more than I did at the time.
And that's kind of how the book ends because the
last time he said it to me, he would say
it every month or so for years, two to three years,
and he actually did our wedding, and the last time
he said it to me, he's never said it since.
You know, he just looked at me and said, don
you're good at relationships proof.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
You know, here's your wedding proof.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
And I think we need those friends, don't We Just
to keep going, Hey, Ma, you'relying yourself.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
You're lying yourself. I know you screwed up, but you're
lying yourself. Don't believe that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Thanks Ben, thank you for joining us. Special thanks to
those of you who give generously to this ministry.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Is because of you that this ministry is possible.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
You can click the link in the description to give now,
or visit Elevationchurch dot org slash podcast for more information
and if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
You can share it with your friends.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
You can click the share button, take a screenshot and
share it on your social stories and tag us at
Elevation Church.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Thanks again for listening. God bless you
Host
Steven Furtick
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