September 5, 2025 • 44 mins
This week we are joined by journalist and cultural commentator Sam Sanders, of the Sam Sanders Show, to unpack the lessons Hollywood is learning from its latest unexpected success: mega-viral sensation Kpop Demon Hunter. We discuss how Sony lost out on much of the movie's profits when it signed over the rights to Netflix–though arguably helped preserve its business during the Covid downturn by doing so–and how the success of KPop Demon Hunters at least partly vindicates Netflix CEO Ted Sarandos’ controversial claim that the experience of going to a movie theater is “outdated.” Sanders mostly agrees, suggesting that the theatrical experience will essentially go the way of opera–once a wildly popular medium that eventually settled into a narrow and extremely rarified niche. The songs are good too.
We’re also joined by Odd Lots co-host Joe Weisenthal to fact check President Trump’s claim that the “stock market needs tariffs and ask college students about their AI habits as they head back to school. And, finally, we explain why, love them or hate them, tariffs are making your Pumpkin Spice Latte (not to mention any pumpkin spice cat litter you happen to buy this fall) more expensive.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. This is Everybody's Business
from Bloomberg Business Week.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Max Chafkin, I'm Stacey Bennix Smith and Max.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I think the theme for this week is situationships.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I don't know where this is going, but.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Okay, situationships as in a relationship that's kind of messy,
not entirely defined.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Source of a lot of drama. Situationships.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
All right, Stacey, I'm gonna work with you here because
but because I think you're right a little bit like
it does kind of describe our situation with tariffs right now. Yes,
maybe they're awesome, maybe they're not. Maybe they're legal, maybe
they're not. We've got Joe Wisenthal of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast,
a friend of the pod here talking markets and tariffs.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Also, the Movie of the Summer is well, it's not
in theaters, Max, it is on Netflix.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Movie of the Summer. It's on Netflix.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm so excited about this. I just want to say
the title.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I know the great Sam Sanders is here to talk.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
K Pop Demon Hunter K Pop Demon Hunters. Max is
very into this movie, and we'll talk with.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Sam about it and Finally I'm told it's pumpkin spice
latt sis. And now I'm told the mayo is love
the flavor. It's everywhere. Nothing is complicated about that one, right.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Stacy, Except most of the ingredients are imported, so tariffs
are complicating our relationship with pumpkin spice lattes.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It's pumpkin spice tariff season now.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I think right now, in our economy, the ultimate situationship
is between companies, workers and AI.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
And we talked about this two weeks ago on the
episode that Zitron, which people should check out a FA
and listen to. There's all this promise with AI. We're
all a lot of businesses are super excited about it.
They're investing sing billions in some cases.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Ten workers replaced by this technology in some cases right.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
And and there's also the promise that it could create
more jobs. It's just it just feels like so much
there is up in the air, and we really don't
know anything yet except we're all spending tons of money
on it.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yes, well, and I think things are changing really fast,
and everyone's like, is this going to take my job?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Is this going to help me do my job?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
But I thought I would go to students because they
are tend to be more comfortable with new technology on
the cutting edge. So too Columbia to NYU to kind
of track down some students and ask them how they
are using AI.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And here's what they said. Do you guys use AI? Yes,
all the time, all the time, we're.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Actually AI students students, really yes?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
What do you use it for?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Editing?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So like if you write a papers.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
It could be like as simple as just like a
text just to polish my language?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Or is it like some simple researchers.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I don't trust an AI on like super deep academic
stuff yet.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
And what about like with schoolwork? Is it like a
big helper. I wouldn't say take AI with a grain.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Of salt, because they make mistakes just like humans do
as well.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Always double check.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Honestly, it's basically the greatest cheat code for college.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Like I'm not even kidding.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
I do know a few people who have used AI
or chat GBT as kind of like a friend, like
getting advice from I.
Speaker 6 (03:19):
Agree, but I definitely think that other people might find
more comfort in AI as a friend than what we
might like to think.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I study actually in the field of public health.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I studied cancer and epidemiology.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
We are actually working with AI, like studying and working
with it.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
With the rise of AI, like pretty much anything as possible.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, Oh my god, oh god, I'm so worried for
our future. Really, the AI students, well are they are
they ais or are they actual people?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Well, I just got worried for a second that you
had interviewed like a couple of chatbots.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
There was a fact at chatbot in the mix there
was one of the answers was a computer. It was
the one who said that AI was the best cheat code.
I asked chat gpt to come up with, like, it's
like defensive AI was like if you were an a enthusiast,
what would you say? And you were students, So we
said like, hey, it's the greatest cheat code. I'm not
even kidding. And then I used to script the software
(04:21):
program has AI voices that you can interject, and so
I mixed that in.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
But everybody else was real. Everybody else was a real student.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Okay, A couple of things. One is I'm glad at
least one person said, uh, yeah, you can't trust it
for everything, because.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yes, yeah, she was one of the AID students.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, well that makes sense because she's actually an expert.
And the funniest thing about being an AI hater is
that the biggest AI haters are AI experts in many
cases because they're the ones who actually understand the limitations
of these techologies, whereas like people who are just like
you know, dipping in and out. I don't know, in
some cases they're using it in dangerous ways, like trying
(05:00):
to trick their co host into misidentifying.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
I think I was doing that for illustrative purposes, not at.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
For gas malented.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
No, there was no mal intent.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
I was just kind of showing you that if that
voice had been like ten percent better, I don't think
you would have picked it up.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
No, Yeah, I don't know. It's super interesting. Like I
do think that the in terms of these questions of
new technology, they are probably like two categories that are
worth looking at, Like one is pornography because that's where
all new technologies seem to start, and the other are
the are the youngs who are using AI.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Well, I chose to go with the youngs for this episode.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Because we are a family podcast.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Max.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You do what you need to do for research, Max,
without a doubt.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
The situationship I believe is dominating our economy right now,
at least this week, is terriff.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I hate the word, but you're right, that is what
this is.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And I felt like it was.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Really worth exploring this because I looked into this and
since Liberation Day, the tariffs have been like postponed, paused, modified,
you know, enacted, reacted more than a hundred times.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
It has been so much back and forth, a.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Lot of defining the relationship going on.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
A lot of like DTR talks that just seemed to
be going nowhere, and in the latest twist, there's a
big question about their legality. So Trump used something called
AIPA to pass the tariffs. That's the International Emergency Economic
Powers Act. It was in place in nineteen seventy seven,
and it essentially because normally Congress has to okay the tariffs,
(06:40):
this gives the president like an emergency power to override
Congress and just make it happen.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, and og listeners of everybody's business will remember that
we talked about this when a lower court initially invalidated
this basically said no, that Trump is sort of abusing
this law. He doesn't have all the power that he
says he has to to do these Liberation Day tariffs.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Right, He's claiming the trade deficit is the emergency, and
so our trade deficit with all these countries is an emergency.
The Supreme Court is now going to be hearing this
case and Trump has asked to.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Fast track it.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
But if it doesn't happen, it would mean all the
tariffs were invalidated and the US would have to refund
the money it's collected so far.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It would be a mess. It was very complicated.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
We decided we would bring in someone to help us
kind of navigate, like why the markets are reacting to
this as they are.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah, we walked all the way over to the other
side journey of the floor where ours are, and found
Joe Wisen's.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
All Leaping over Desks.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Odd Lots podcast, which is awesome if you don't listen
to it. Joe is like one of the smartest, one
of the most entertaining people on markets. UH agreed we
could find and.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Here he is in the studio with us. Joe Wisenthal,
a co host of Odd Loots.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Welcome, Joe, Hi, thank you for having me. Well, we're
very excited to have you here.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Especially since we are a confused Max and I are
confused right now and we're hoping you can clear this up.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So, when tariffs were first put.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
In place, I think it's fair to say that some
people liked them, some people hated them.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
The markets did not like them.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Sure correct, Now that they their legality is being questioned,
it seems like the markets do not like the idea
of the tariffs going away.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, And amid this like ruling, Trump got up at
a podium and the market was going down, and he said,
he said this, let's just listen, and.
Speaker 7 (08:30):
Now it's going to the Supreme Court and we're going
to ask for expedited and expedited ruling because you know,
when you look at the stock markets down today, the
stock market's down because of that, because the stock market
needs the tariffs.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
They want the tariffs. Like I'm listened to that, Yeah,
and I was like, Okay, Trump's probably just saying that
because he likes the tariffs. But like it made me wonder,
is there any truth to that? Does the stock market
we can talk about the bomb market too, Do the
markets like the tariffs? And is there any aspect to this?
Is that he's right about.
Speaker 6 (09:02):
I will try to maybe make the strongest defense of
that claim, which is there probably is some truth to
the idea that policy uncertainty is not great for the market,
and this would clearly reinject I guess. I suppose policy
uncertainty on the volatility of the tariff policy is probably
narrower than it was back in early April, although there
(09:24):
still seems to be changes every day. So I guess
the idea that the tariffs could be pulled out the
rug from the whole thing, I would not entirely. I
suppose discount the possibility that investors aren't crazy about that.
I don't really believe it directly. I mean, the thing is,
this market is driven by a handful of gigantic tech companies,
and it's mostly an AI story at this point, and
(09:46):
that is an industry in space that largely is unaffected
by the tariffs. So the market is up a lot
since early April, in part because there's been some walk
back from the Liberation Day levels, and also because nothing
has derailed the AI story. Now, there's one other element
that could be interesting, which is that there is quite
a bit of revenue coming into the federal government thanks
(10:09):
to the tariffs. Yes, one of the anxieties in markets
is what's been happening at the long end of developed
market yield curves and sort of bond yields blowing out.
If there is some perception that, okay, deficits are already
very wide and one of the few sources of growing
revenue is going to suddenly disappear, maybe there could be
something where people get more concerned about the fiscal equilibrium
(10:32):
and that having an effect. That was kind of the
story on Tuesday. Like how far I would take that,
I'm not sure, but I suppose I wouldn't completely say
this is not a factor.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
I mean, beyond just the uncertainty which markets notoriously do
not like. It also seems like if for some reason
the tariffs are declared illegal, this is just gonna be
a mess because everybody would have to get their money back.
I can imagine this could sue the government for like
lost business or increased costs. I mean, it seems like
(11:06):
as much as you might dislike the tariffs, as much
as someone might dislike the tariffs, doing away with the
tariffs is a mess.
Speaker 6 (11:13):
Yeah, it would be a mess. I mean, there's sort
of two things going on at once. Here that are
both very interesting. I think longer term economists would say, look,
even if it's messy in the short term, tariffs are
bad tariffs creating efficiencies, They create all kinds of problems.
They create divisions between trading partners and allies that make
it hard to plan. There are all kinds of issues
that tariffs raised, and they would probably say, look, yeah,
(11:35):
maybe it'd be a mess in the short term to
dial them back, but does not compare to the mess
the tariff's introduced, So.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Better to like wade through the mess.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
Yes, And I mean I think most economists would say,
let please get rid of them now. The one complication
I would say here is that I would say that
there is a perception in the United States right now
that we have this dysfunctional public sector and decisions essentially
can't get made. Things can't get built, legislation can't get past,
et cetera. This is because of the sort of very
(12:06):
diffuse nature of democracy, where there are a lot of
veto points, et cetera, and a lot of people aren't
crazy about how many veto points there are in American democracy,
whether at the court level or the local level, et cetera.
How hard it is to build things, et cetera. There's
this frustration of stagnancy in the built environment and in
the policy environment. And perhaps someone would say, well, if
(12:27):
the Supreme Court undermines the Trump tariffs, this just confirms
the fact that nothing can get done in America. We
can't set a new chart, a new policy course.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Now.
Speaker 6 (12:36):
Again, like the ability to tariff is something that is
theoretically in the Congress of purview and theoretically should only
be used by the White House in emergency situations. The
congressation in.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Fact invoked those emergency situations. But like for all the
countries in the world.
Speaker 6 (12:51):
And Congress has not stood up for itself. So if
Trump is sort of usurping this power that belongs to Congress,
it's not like Congress has really complained, or certainly the
Republican leaders of Congress. Nonetheless, I suppose if the Supreme
Court were to rule the tariffs and valid the money
was no longer be connected. It may feed into this
idea that the American sort of presidential three system of power.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
It's difficult.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Well, there's also the risk branch. When we're talking about INSERTNTY.
I was just trying to think Okay, Well, what is
the incertainty, because if they invalidated the tariffs, then like,
I don't know, it seems pretty certain we don't we
don't know those tariffs. But it seems like part of
the risk is that Trump would somehow to ignore the
Supreme Court or do some other additional thing that would
(13:38):
further create a sense of uncertainty.
Speaker 6 (13:40):
And well, we're in a very weird situation right now
with a TikTok band where there does not seem to
be any legal basis whatsoever for TikTok to exist on
the app stores in the United States. That law has
not been repealed at all, but the White House uniletter
I said, I'm just going to not ignore it. We're
just not going to pay attention to the lower can
enforce it. But that's a very weird situation, Like, right,
(14:04):
why it's so it is it is illegal by the law,
and yet no one is enforcing the ban for better
or worse. But that what if the Supreme Court said
no tariffs can no longer be collected and the White
House instructed the ports to keep collecting the tariffs. I mean,
this is potentially it's a very weird situations here.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I mean also, if you're running a business and you're
trying to figure out what to do, and you're like, okay,
should we if the tariffs are locked in, it would
be better for us to build a factory and start
making things here, or invest in iron mine or whatever
it is. But it's just hard to know if it's
going to get overturned or if it's going to go
away with the next president. It's like where do you
invest your money? You can't really grow and expand the
way you could if you had like a clear course totally.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
So this is a really important dimension, which is that
the longer these tariffs exist in any form, the more
likely it is that they will exist forever. Because once
you start getting any company that is making domestic investments
predicated on the existence of tariffs, that company is a
perpetual lobbyist for the existence of.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
A lobbyist, but like a lobbyist with a pretty good
case to make. We should talk about the bomb market
a little bit, because, like what Joe said about the
stock market is true, like the stock market has done
really well during the Trump presidency, but it could just
be a comment on like in Vidia and maybe maybe
in fact if if there weren't tariffs to.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
Video, but we know that a huge amount of it
is attributable to these companies.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Anyway, keep going, yeah, yeah, So anyway, I was just
that's a segue for stations.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
So since the tariff conundrum happened, since it seems like
the legalities come into question in a serious way, the
bond market has reacted in this way where like yields
have gone up, in other words, kind of interest rates
have gone up. The US is perceived to be a
riskier place to put your money.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yes, so what is going on?
Speaker 6 (15:51):
I guess one way to think about this question, and
it gets back to I think you really have to
talk politics, and you really have to talk about this
idea of whether you feel that over the next several
years we will still even have a nominally or truly
independent central bank that can set rates at will or
set rates sort of independent of the political cycle, regardless
(16:13):
of who is in the White House. And so if
you're going to put your money in the US for
a long time, if you're going to lock up your
money for a long time, you probably would like that
the central bank to feel. You would like that confidence
that the central bank will do at its job to
preserve the value of your currency, avoid high inflation, if
you are worried about the political status of the central bank,
(16:36):
if you're worried that an entity will no longer exist
that is committed to doing getting to two percent inflation
sort of whatever the cost because of something upstream in
the political cycle, et cetera. I don't know, maybe you
want a little bit more compensation in your long term
holdings to compensate you for this risk.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Well wait, that doesn't really have anything to do with
Liberation Day though, or like the tariffs, I mean.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
Or it doesn't really you're no, no, it's totally true.
So it only has anything to do with it in
so far as all of this is a commentary on
US political stability.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Well totally. Like if you're if you're lending money to
the US government, you're like, okay, I like the most
of those people like the global financial system as it
exists today, Like the US is like integrated, this like
incredibly successful experiment in politics and capitalism that played out
starting after World War Two. Yeah, and if Trump is
blowing that up, that makes you nervous. I think that's
(17:33):
what it is.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
Yeah, I think that's right, And all of these things
are just sort of novelties within the American political system. Right,
say the Supreme Court were to say tariffs are illegal,
I mean broad based. First of all, the broad based
tariffs on these emergency claims, that's a novelty. The idea
of the Supreme Court, then reversing tariffs, that's a novelty.
A potential dispute between the White House and the judicial branch,
(17:57):
that's a novelty. All of these things, right, that we
sort of took for granted, certain institutional arrangements. And this
is where I get back to the FED itself. The
way I think about the FED is it's been encased
in glass, right, and it sort of let operate to
do its own thing.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And the independence is like a little glass.
Speaker 6 (18:13):
But it could get shattered, and maybe it will get
shattered at some point, or maybe it already has been
shattered or at least cracked, based on the fact that's
already coming under a lot of criticism. So a lot
of institutional arrangements which had been perceived to be stable
are perceived to be less stable. And once again, the
FED is part of that and could have a factor
in the degree of the payment that you want in
(18:36):
order to keep your money in dollars long term.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And just to bring it back to this initial question,
like treasury yields went up yesterday, which again kind of
feeds Trump's idea that like, yeah, we need those terrifts market,
and what you're saying is this is another the story
is kind of the same. It's an uncertain it's a
certainty versus.
Speaker 6 (18:53):
So I think part of this too, you know where
it's really bad is in the UK right now that
it's getting a lot of attention is how much they're buying.
Yields are blowing out at the long end, but it's
really it's Japan too, and they're you know, for them
long term rates like one point eight percent, which is
very low, but it's Japan, so for them that's very
high by their grand standard of things. But there is
(19:16):
this concern I would say two concerns at least in
maybe three concerns within rich developed countries, which is that
they have unfavorable demographics, that they have aging populations that
are going to require a lot of resources that and
a lot of that will soak up and burden a
lot of the productive labor. Two, some combination of this
(19:40):
burden of the aging population and then other sort of
the hollowing out of industrial activity specifically because of competition
with China. Is this fear that the productive base of
rich Western or you know, sort of rich liberal countries
is going to get hollowed out, et cetera. And then
finally add on to these things this sort of evident
(20:01):
political dysfunction which kind of exists everywhere. I mean, we
see it. I think people perceive political volatility in the
US the certainly you look at the UK and also
doesn't look like they can get anything done. They're always
having these very piaun scandals that seem to be at
the cover of the paper. But everywhere you look there's
similar things going on. There's these sort of stresses that
(20:22):
are being put on the sort of political arrangements. So
you combine all these three things together and there's sort
of this global story going on that is beyond just
the question of tariff revenue.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
So Joe, little known fact, well maybe not that little known,
but you are in a band that's right called Seek Crewure,
and I had a musical questions for you because this
is so weird.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Max is going to die, But It's the first thing
that came into my.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Head when I read about the illegal possibly illegal tariffs,
which is that song by the Clash, like do I
stay or do I go?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Oh yeah Gray so hun Because it seems like with
the tariffs, this is the case like if they stay
in place.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
There's going to be trouble. If they go away, do
it'll be double.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
I love the setup that.
Speaker 8 (21:05):
Was thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
It's a really long setup, no, but it putt I
appreciate you rolling with it.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
I think there are a lot of things like that
these days, where we sort of arrive at these forks
in the road and we'd sort of want them to
never be resultd because neither of the resolutions seem great.
I mean, I think about this with AI. Do we
want the AI bubble to burst or do we want
AI to take all our jobs? I'm not sure at
this point. I think with tariffs, I look, I have
no I'm a journalist. I have no opinion on tariffs.
(21:31):
I just I just report the news and usually I
just ask the questions. Rarely am I answered. Then yes,
all of these things are very strange, and I don't
you know, from a sort of when you balance out
economics with sort of institutional stability, et cetera. I think
there's this feeling that we're hurtling towards genuinely uncharted territory.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I feel like that clash song is how investors feel
about everything, not just yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I feel like it also works with the AI bubble too.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I mean, do we want things to keep going and
get super overheated?
Speaker 9 (22:03):
No?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Do we want the bubble to burst?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
No?
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Yeah, I gotta return, not soon.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
But Joe Wisenthal, thanks for being here.
Speaker 6 (22:12):
Thanks for having me. That was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Shoot, I still shoot I go.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
If you say that you on my.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I'll be tilly end no time, Stacy. Have you seen
Kpop Demon Hunters?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Okay, yes, this is this movie on Netflix. It's this
huge hit. I had not watched it until.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Last night when you your enthusiasm about this topic encouraged
me to watch it and.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I really liked it.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
All right, So listeners to this show know that I
have three children. My oldest is ten. I think this movie,
I think snuck up on everyone who isn't ten years old.
It is on Netflix. Came out almost three months ago,
maybe two and a half months ago. It is on
track to be the most watched or maybe it already
is the most watched film on Netflix two hundred and
(23:03):
sixty six million views.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Definitely the movie of the summer as we're recording it.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, and it is the movie the Summer, I think,
which is weird because there have been a couple other
big Netflix movies before, big streaming things before, but I
don't think they've ever quite broken out culturally in the
way that this one has. And again it's not just Netflix.
If you pull up Spotify their global one hundred list
of top songs, you got what it sounds like, which
is number nine. This is a musical, by the way,
(23:29):
how It's done, number six, your idol number five, Soda
Pop number four.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And these gold bangs.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
So this gold is a banger. It is like the
hottest song right now.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
It's on my exercising mix.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
This movie is gonna make a fortune, and we have
a great person to talk about it. Sam Sanders is here.
He is host of the Sam Sanders Show, which you
should subscribe to if you don't. Just a really smart
cultural commentator. Sam, How you.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Doing, I'm good, y'all.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
Finally got me to watch K pop Demon Hunters, which
had been on my list, and let me tell you,
I was dancing in the living room with the dog
last night.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
It's really cute and it's really fun.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
All right, So Stacy, you wanted to just kind of
quickly summarize the premise here. I mean, it's basically in
the title they're K pop stars and they hunt demons.
It's like Nake's on a plane level, like obvious. Well, okay,
so there is a band.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
It's three women and they are like born like demon
slayers and they slay the demons of the world with
their voices, which creates some kind of a network that
slays demons anyway. But that is also an evil boy
band made up of like five very handsome men who
(24:45):
are singing for evil.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
They're demons too. It's an animated film. It's a musical,
and it came out, like I said, like back in June,
and I think it's snuck up on a lot of people.
It's snuck up on me for sure. Like I only
really became aware of it over the last week when
I was on vacation and my children watched it like
seven times in a row. But like, I'm kind of
(25:06):
curious when you started to kind of hear chatter about this,
like when you became aware that this was going to
be a phenomenon, that you were going to be talking
about this, you know, in a professional capacity.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
At some point, the songs kind of crept into my algorithm.
I used Spotify mostly for streaming, and all of a sudden,
Golden began to show up. And for the longest time,
I just said, Oh, that's some new K pop band.
They always got a new one over there in K
pop world. Then I realized, oh, this is from a movie.
Then I googled a movie and I'm like, oh, it's
a massive, massive hit.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
It really surprised everybody.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
It surprised Sony, it surprised Netflix, and I think that
says a lot about how most executives in the entertainment
industry actually.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Don't know anything. They don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, I'm this movie. I didn't know this going into
taping this, but like I guess, animated movies are really
expensive to make. This movie costs one hundred million dollars
to make. Oh wow, I've read that like it is
gonna be a billion dollar movie, and that's a big
deal because it didn't have a theatrical release. Sam like
people who don't pay attention to this business, like how
do you get to a billion dollars or a big
(26:13):
number for a movie that like I can go on
Netflix and stream for free, My kids are streaming for
free NonStop, Like where is the money in something like this?
Speaker 4 (26:21):
For Netflix?
Speaker 5 (26:22):
It's fuzzy math and they'll never tell us everything. The
biggest shift between watching movie and TV viewing go to
streamers as opposed to being in networks back in the
day and the movie theaters. Back in the day, we
had really distinct measures of how shows and movies did.
There were Nielsen ratings that told you that Seinfeld had
(26:44):
thirty five million viewers a week and box office numbers
that said this movie made one hundred million dollars this weekend.
Netflix hides a bunch of that data, but what they're
hoping is that this movie being so popular keeps people
coming back and subscribe, and those subscriber fees will help
their bottom line. There's also an ad tier of Netflix
(27:06):
now that exists, but most people I know don't use it.
So all this to say, whatever hard number they give
you about this movie, it's less about that and more
about winning the conversation.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
And being seen as the biggest, baddest, best stream.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
The subscription fees I mean is the short answer, Like
people like this and they keep subscribing to Netflix, or
they don't subscribe and they resubscribe because they got to
watch K pop demon Hunters.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I want to jump in here and ask you about
something you said earlier, Sam, which is that nobody knows anything,
which I think is really interesting. I mean, the summer
movie of the summer has always been this big deal,
this big deal in business too nobody hit it right
next Netflix seems to have accidentally hit it right, Like,
what's going on here? Why does nobody know nothing?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Right now?
Speaker 5 (27:54):
I will So there's a few things going on we
are seeing movie going in general.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Just go down.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
There used to be a time in our youth where
on the weekends you would go to the movies even
if there wasn't a movie that you really wanted to
go watch.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Well, Barbie Heimer happens. Not that long ago.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
There was the those of you in far between.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Yeah, there are very few monoculture moments and movies anymore,
and only about twelve percent of Americans now go to
the movies at least once a month, and about a
quarter of Americans don't go to the movies at all.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (28:28):
In the midst of this, these studios rely a lot
more on IP like Barbie and other things that folks
already know and will go see. And so if you
look at the biggest performing movies of this year so far,
it's all existing IP, How to Train Your Dragon, Fantastic Four,
Jurassic World, Superman, the Lelo and Stitch sequel.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
So movie going.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Is going down, which means that movie studios rely on
old names that we all know, which means that a
movie like K Pop Demon Hunters, they don't know what
to do with it because it's new, and they're afraid
to take that chance and put it in theaters. So
there's also a really weird story about the way that
Sony and Netflix made the deal that put this film
(29:14):
on Netflix and not.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Any sam You want to just explain that.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Yeah, So, as I mentioned on top of Americans just
going to movies less, the pandemic and that era of
lockdown really decimated movie theaters for a while. They're still
bouncing back, but they're not back to what they were
pre COVID, and they might never get there.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
If I'm being honest.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
However, during that lockdown moment, a lot of movie studios said,
what can we do to keep making movies and not
close our businesses and not lay off all of our staff.
Sony ink to deal with Netflix during lockdown that basically
said we'll make movies, but we know they can't go
to theaters, so we'll sell movies at a flat rate
(29:58):
to Netflix that will then stream these movies on their
platform and then they'll get all the rights. So K
Pop Demon Hunters was a part of this deal, which
meant that even though Sony made the movie, they were
paid twenty million dollars for it, and Netflix got all
the rights and the benefits from having this big.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Hit well the and Netflix paid to make it to
paid one hundred million bucks to make it, and then
another twenty Yeah on top of that, that was the
flat fee part to Sony.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Yeah, yes, yes, but that means that Sony will see
no upside from this movie. And even when Netflix put
K Pop Demon Hunters in theaters for one weekend for
a special sing along edition of this film, Sony the
movie studio saw none of that money.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
WHOA to Netflix?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You know, there's been this debate in Hollywood, I think
over over some period of time, Sam and I know
you're probably familiar with this, but like we have traditional Hollywood,
including a lot of like filmmakers and so on, who
feel like theaters are really important. Theatrical releases are really important.
There's like a kind of cultural reason for that, which
is like they feel like that's what a movie should be.
(31:05):
But there's also like a marketing argument, which is that
theaters are how you create like cultural moments, like you
can't have a movie of the Summer without a theatr.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah, the producers of Crazy Rich Asians turned down more
money from Netflix because the theatrical release was so important
to them.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And Netflix has been kind of like the one saying no, no, no,
you don't need this. So so Ted Sarandos is the
CEO of Netflix at the time one hundred Summit in April,
which that's funny. I don't know what that is, but
it's an event in April held by Time magazine, and
he was asked about theaters. Just listen to what he said.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
Folks grew up thinking I want to make movies on
a gigantic screen and have strangers watch them and play
for the the in the theaters for two months and
people cry and sold out shows.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
It just doesn't happen very much outdated.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
So I'm kind of curious Sam, if you agree with that,
or if there's anything to what he's saying, and if
K Pop demon Hunters maybe helps make make the point,
because they did create a cultural moment in a kind
of an interesting and maybe arguably new way.
Speaker 8 (32:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
I mean, I talk a lot about the ways in
which Americans are just not going to the movies like
they used to.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
It kind of makes me sad. I love movies.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
I actually think that movie going does a lot for
social and cultural adhesion.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
Like it is a community experience.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
There are few feelings better than watching a really good
movie in a theater and then talking to the stranger
next to you about how it was afterwards.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
I think it's good for like society.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
So I'm sad that we don't go as much, But
I think that the trend lines are just inevitable. I
tell folks a lot. I compare movie going right now
to opera going. There was a time in Western culture
where opera was the most popular thing ever, and on
the weekend you went to the opera and at night
for a date.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
You went to the opera, and everyone went to the opera.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
Right, Opera doesn't not exist now, it still exists. There
are people who sing opera and make money doing opera,
but it's not nearly as dominant as a cultural force.
I think movie going in the classical sense at the
movie theater is going the way of opera.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
We're all just going like people in like over dressed
old people coming out of movie theaters.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, well, am I going to be one of these people?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Do you buy the marketing argument? Everything you're saying could
be true, But opera or some movie releases that are
not necessarily big moneymakers could be events that like allow
a project to gather enthusiasm or excitement or whatever. I
think there have been a lot of people arguing this
is a way to signal to people, like this is
a thing you need to see, this is a big deal,
(33:37):
like any of that. But you think that could also
go away.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
When is the last time that happened?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Probably it's like Barbieaks.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
The last several years.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
But like those were things where Christopher Nolan as a
director is as close to existing ip as you can
get in a human being, and Barbie is a brand
that we've all known for decades. I really think that
as movie goes the way of opera, the own things
that will work and become cultural moments or things that
were already a cultural moment.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Before we let you go, Sam, I wanted to ask
you about kind of like what happens next. I mean
we were talking about the money earlier, like some of
the money's gonna be in sequels, right, there hasn't actually
been a ton of mercery.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I've not seen the last of Kop Team.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
And because this took people by surprise, like they didn't
have enough time to like, oh really, there's some a
little bit, but not as much as you would normally
have for something like this, they're gonna be sequels. I'm
kind of curious, Sam, what you think the lessons are,
I mean beyond just like we're gonna see I'm sure
copycat type stuff. What are people in entertainment? How are
(34:36):
the smart ones thinking about this? What are they gonna
learn from this?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Like, I mean, there has been a decade plus of
movie studios relying a lot on existing ip to make
their money, so big brands that you already know and love,
sequel after sequel after sequel, But all the trend lines
say that this won't last forever. Most of the time,
when you extract all these sequels from ongoing IP, it's
(35:02):
diminishing returns with each sequel. That's happening with the biggest
franchises is in Hollywood, and so Hollywood's about to face
a problem. They actually need new IP. And you know
what K Pop Demon Hunters is, It's new IP. So
I think the lesson here for all of Hollywood and
all these executives is that they're gonna have to start
taking chances again because the trough they're feeding from is
(35:25):
eventually going to run dry. How many Jurassic World movies
can we put up with?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Stacy?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Don't ask that how many questions, Sam, because they answer
could be a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Sam Sanders, thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Thanks Sam.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
To everyone listening. It's good for America. Go to the movies.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yes, Please go to the movie Yes co sign and
be sure to check out Sam Show, The Sam Sanders Show.
I just listened to their year interviews so far episode.
It's great checking.
Speaker 9 (35:51):
Out all right, Stacey, Max, I have a confession to
make and I feel like this makes me almost like
(36:13):
anti American, like what.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I hope I don't get deported for saying this, but
I am not a big fan of like a pumpkin
spice coffee, and I feel like that is one of
the institutions of this. It's as American as apple pie
and baby.
Speaker 6 (36:27):
Well.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I have something to admit as well, which is I've
never actually had a pumpkin spice latte.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
We're gonna do this whole segment without actually trying one.
That's that seems harsh, but you have an underrated story
and it pertains this.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yes, in fact, so pumpkin spic season has launched its
official and it is an economic force. The pumpkin spice,
which is apparently like cinnamon, nutmeg clothes little mix. Apparently,
visits to Starbucks go up by twenty four percent in
pumpkin spicison.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
People love this mix.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Apparently you and I are just in the extreme minority
of non pumpkin spice.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
But also, pumpkin spice is also what you need if
you're making a pumpkin pie, right or sweet potato pie.
I love, which is a delicious thing. Yes, so it
can't just be.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
I like my coffee to taste like coffee. I'm a purist.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I'm just glad that Starbucks has something to look forward to,
because you know, we were talking the other day about
the challenges that they've had. But yes, pumpkin spice season,
this is going to be great for them.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Well it is and it isn't.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
So Starbucks is possibly now in a situationship with the
pumpkin spice latte because not only are coffee prices up
like fifteen percent over last year, which is enormous for
a number of reasons, but all the spices in the
pumpkin spice latte are imported, and so those are all being.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Affected by tariffs.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
And the pumpkin spice latte since two thousand and five
when it started being the price started being tracked, is
up by almost seventy percent.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Okay, wait wait, break that down for us. So how
much did it cost back in.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Uh, three dollars in thirty five cents?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Okay, now it is.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
It's like around seven dollars and fifty cents eight bucks.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
And that's before these tariffs kicked in.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Well, the tariffs may have slightly kicked in. I don't
know if Starbucks has been stockpiling pumpkin spices. One can
only imagine that when they saw this coming, they were like,
you know, it's a very important thing. But you know,
if these tariffs get locked into place, all these spices, cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, like,
we do not grow them in the US.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So they're mostly coming from Asia.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
I think, yes, India and Indonesia, and like the places
where the spices come from are all being hit by tariffs.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
I find it funny there's so much political discourse right
now where you have sort of like Democrats saying these
tariffs are are really bad and Republicans say, no, they're
not bad, and it's like, well, we don't really have
to argue about it. You can just look at the
prices of certain goods and like they're going up, I mean,
and you can sort of debate whether or not that's
(38:58):
a big price increase with that's like a politically a problem,
Like there are a bunch of debates you can have
about it, but like the prices don't really.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Lie unless you think Max that coffee is the only
thing on the line here. I would just like to
pose it that pumpkin spice has now infiltrated almost every
corner of consumer culture. There is pumpkin spice, cup of noodles.
Oh god, there is pumpkin spice spam. There are pumpkin spice, doritos, slurpies, hummus, ramen, pringles,
(39:32):
cough drops, my personal favorite, cat litter. There's poppins spice,
cat litter. It's everywhere, everywhere. I mean, imagine the pumpkin
spice inflation alone. The economic impact is going to reverberate
earthquake style.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Through the we had. If we had like Scott Bessen here,
he would say, look, the President is just trying to
reorient the US economy away from pumpkin spice, and I
would say, amen to that.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
You're all for it. You're not going to start drinking pumpkins, spice, lattes.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Or cat litter. All right, Stacey, Before we go, I
gotta just read some of the emails. We got to
the A I think I met.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
We got a lot this one we should say. This
show was we had.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
On Exitron noted Ai Hater, really awesome conversation about mentioned
it at the top of about sort of the ways
in which, no matter how excited you are about this stuff,
there are there seem to be some real economic.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
It's possibly very overvalued in a way that could crash
the lot.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
I gotta tell you, Stacey, we got some some haters
listening to this show. So Rick wrote in complaining that
I don't use it unless it's forced upon me. Take
that college students complaining essentially about the electricity, the water usage,
and like the fact that as a consumer you don't
always get value. Talking about customer service phones being converted
(41:03):
over to AI. He complained about doctor's offices, which actually
came up in another note from another correspondent I think
his name is Yoshin, but wrote in complaining about basically
having his doctor's office put him in touch with like
an AI agent and that feeling really interesting, Haley Icky.
I mean, the most interesting note we got was a
(41:26):
sort of lengthy one from Josh, who is by his
account anyway, a Carnegie Mellon trained machine learning engineer, and
he's basically saying like Although he wrote, well, I don't
always agree with Ed's approach to arguing against the current
hysteria gripping markets around AI, he's right about the fundamental
disconnect between hype and reality. I don't see this to
(41:48):
mean that there's no utility in LMS. There are clearly
are narrow applications where they provide value. However, the ROI
is highly suspect given the capital required to produce what
will likely remember as the twenty first century lies. Now,
I had to.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Twenty first century Eliza look as in like Eliza Doolittle.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
No, Eliza was a a like very early chatbot from
like the nineteen sixties. Okay, and I had to I
had to google that, But I mean again, it didn't
I was.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
All in my fair lady, I was, you know.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
But anyway, awesome emails all around on this topic, like
keep them coming. I think we really liked that conversation.
In particular. We're gonna, as we said on the other one,
we're going to try to keep coming back to this topic.
So so keep sending us ideas examples. Let us know
what you thought of K pop demon Hunters, what it
could tell you about what we can learn from Hollywood.
That's everybody's at Bloomberg dot net. Everybody's with an ass
(42:40):
at Bloomberg dot net.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Do you still consider yourself an AI skeptic?
Speaker 1 (42:45):
I feel like everyone should be an AI skeptic, especially
if you're a journalist. Like journalists by nature are supposed
to be skeptical of everything. I try not to use
AI because I think it's going to actually make me
a worse writer, and I think that everyone is kind
of melting their brains a little bit.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Well, you wouldn't want us to put it on the
show or give it a job on the show. Definitely
not what we should probably do. The credits.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
This show is produced by Stacy Wong.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Magnus Henrickson is our supervising producer and Amy Keen is
our editor.
Speaker 8 (43:15):
We get engineering from Blake Maples and Dave Purcell.
Speaker 6 (43:18):
Fact checks Sage baumanheads Bloomberg Podcasts.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
Special thanks to Jeff Muscus, Julia Rubin and Maria.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Ling, who are these voices. If you have a minute,
please rate and review the show.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
It means a lot to us.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
If you do, Max will drink a Venti Pumpkin spice
latte during next week's show. This will be enforced.
Speaker 8 (43:38):
And if you have a story that should be our business,
email us at everybody sat Bloomberg dot net. That's everybody
with an S said Bloomberg dot net. Thank you for listening.
See you next week.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Resistance is feudal max check you will be assimilated except
your fate.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
I would like to to think, uh, the descript AI
generated voices that contributed to this, including Owen and Grace,
they contributed to them.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
They're not voices, they're just mathematical models. It's an auto computer.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
You have to drink of spice latte if somebody reviews
the show, so that's that's interesting.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. This is Everybody's Business
from Bloomberg Business Week.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Max Chafkin, I'm Stacey Bennix Smith and Max.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I think the theme for this week is situationships.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I don't know where this is going, but.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Okay, situationships as in a relationship that's kind of messy,
not entirely defined.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Source of a lot of drama. Situationships.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
All right, Stacey, I'm gonna work with you here because
but because I think you're right a little bit like
it does kind of describe our situation with tariffs right now. Yes,
maybe they're awesome, maybe they're not. Maybe they're legal, maybe
they're not. We've got Joe Wisenthal of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast,
a friend of the pod here talking markets and tariffs.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Also, the Movie of the Summer is well, it's not
in theaters, Max, it is on Netflix.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Movie of the Summer. It's on Netflix.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm so excited about this. I just want to say
the title.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I know the great Sam Sanders is here to talk.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
K Pop Demon Hunter K Pop Demon Hunters. Max is
very into this movie, and we'll talk with.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Sam about it and Finally I'm told it's pumpkin spice
latt sis. And now I'm told the mayo is love
the flavor. It's everywhere. Nothing is complicated about that one, right.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Stacy, Except most of the ingredients are imported, so tariffs
are complicating our relationship with pumpkin spice lattes.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It's pumpkin spice tariff season now.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I think right now, in our economy, the ultimate situationship
is between companies, workers and AI.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
And we talked about this two weeks ago on the
episode that Zitron, which people should check out a FA
and listen to. There's all this promise with AI. We're
all a lot of businesses are super excited about it.
They're investing sing billions in some cases.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Ten workers replaced by this technology in some cases right.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
And and there's also the promise that it could create
more jobs. It's just it just feels like so much
there is up in the air, and we really don't
know anything yet except we're all spending tons of money
on it.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yes, well, and I think things are changing really fast,
and everyone's like, is this going to take my job?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Is this going to help me do my job?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
But I thought I would go to students because they
are tend to be more comfortable with new technology on
the cutting edge. So too Columbia to NYU to kind
of track down some students and ask them how they
are using AI.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And here's what they said. Do you guys use AI? Yes,
all the time, all the time, we're.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Actually AI students students, really yes?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
What do you use it for?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Editing?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So like if you write a papers.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
It could be like as simple as just like a
text just to polish my language?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Or is it like some simple researchers.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I don't trust an AI on like super deep academic
stuff yet.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
And what about like with schoolwork? Is it like a
big helper. I wouldn't say take AI with a grain.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Of salt, because they make mistakes just like humans do
as well.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Always double check.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Honestly, it's basically the greatest cheat code for college.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Like I'm not even kidding.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
I do know a few people who have used AI
or chat GBT as kind of like a friend, like
getting advice from I.
Speaker 6 (03:19):
Agree, but I definitely think that other people might find
more comfort in AI as a friend than what we
might like to think.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I study actually in the field of public health.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I studied cancer and epidemiology.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
We are actually working with AI, like studying and working
with it.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
With the rise of AI, like pretty much anything as possible.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, Oh my god, oh god, I'm so worried for
our future. Really, the AI students, well are they are
they ais or are they actual people?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Well, I just got worried for a second that you
had interviewed like a couple of chatbots.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
There was a fact at chatbot in the mix there
was one of the answers was a computer. It was
the one who said that AI was the best cheat code.
I asked chat gpt to come up with, like, it's
like defensive AI was like if you were an a enthusiast,
what would you say? And you were students, So we
said like, hey, it's the greatest cheat code. I'm not
even kidding. And then I used to script the software
(04:21):
program has AI voices that you can interject, and so
I mixed that in.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
But everybody else was real. Everybody else was a real student.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Okay, A couple of things. One is I'm glad at
least one person said, uh, yeah, you can't trust it
for everything, because.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yes, yeah, she was one of the AID students.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, well that makes sense because she's actually an expert.
And the funniest thing about being an AI hater is
that the biggest AI haters are AI experts in many
cases because they're the ones who actually understand the limitations
of these techologies, whereas like people who are just like
you know, dipping in and out. I don't know, in
some cases they're using it in dangerous ways, like trying
(05:00):
to trick their co host into misidentifying.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
I think I was doing that for illustrative purposes, not at.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
For gas malented.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
No, there was no mal intent.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
I was just kind of showing you that if that
voice had been like ten percent better, I don't think
you would have picked it up.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
No, Yeah, I don't know. It's super interesting. Like I
do think that the in terms of these questions of
new technology, they are probably like two categories that are
worth looking at, Like one is pornography because that's where
all new technologies seem to start, and the other are
the are the youngs who are using AI.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Well, I chose to go with the youngs for this episode.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Because we are a family podcast.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Max.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You do what you need to do for research, Max,
without a doubt.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
The situationship I believe is dominating our economy right now,
at least this week, is terriff.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I hate the word, but you're right, that is what
this is.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And I felt like it was.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Really worth exploring this because I looked into this and
since Liberation Day, the tariffs have been like postponed, paused, modified,
you know, enacted, reacted more than a hundred times.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
It has been so much back and forth, a.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Lot of defining the relationship going on.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
A lot of like DTR talks that just seemed to
be going nowhere, and in the latest twist, there's a
big question about their legality. So Trump used something called
AIPA to pass the tariffs. That's the International Emergency Economic
Powers Act. It was in place in nineteen seventy seven,
and it essentially because normally Congress has to okay the tariffs,
(06:40):
this gives the president like an emergency power to override
Congress and just make it happen.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, and og listeners of everybody's business will remember that
we talked about this when a lower court initially invalidated
this basically said no, that Trump is sort of abusing
this law. He doesn't have all the power that he
says he has to to do these Liberation Day tariffs.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Right, He's claiming the trade deficit is the emergency, and
so our trade deficit with all these countries is an emergency.
The Supreme Court is now going to be hearing this
case and Trump has asked to.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Fast track it.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
But if it doesn't happen, it would mean all the
tariffs were invalidated and the US would have to refund
the money it's collected so far.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It would be a mess. It was very complicated.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
We decided we would bring in someone to help us
kind of navigate, like why the markets are reacting to
this as they are.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah, we walked all the way over to the other
side journey of the floor where ours are, and found
Joe Wisen's.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
All Leaping over Desks.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Odd Lots podcast, which is awesome if you don't listen
to it. Joe is like one of the smartest, one
of the most entertaining people on markets. UH agreed we
could find and.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Here he is in the studio with us. Joe Wisenthal,
a co host of Odd Loots.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Welcome, Joe, Hi, thank you for having me. Well, we're
very excited to have you here.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Especially since we are a confused Max and I are
confused right now and we're hoping you can clear this up.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So, when tariffs were first put.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
In place, I think it's fair to say that some
people liked them, some people hated them.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
The markets did not like them.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Sure correct, Now that they their legality is being questioned,
it seems like the markets do not like the idea
of the tariffs going away.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, And amid this like ruling, Trump got up at
a podium and the market was going down, and he said,
he said this, let's just listen, and.
Speaker 7 (08:30):
Now it's going to the Supreme Court and we're going
to ask for expedited and expedited ruling because you know,
when you look at the stock markets down today, the
stock market's down because of that, because the stock market
needs the tariffs.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
They want the tariffs. Like I'm listened to that, Yeah,
and I was like, Okay, Trump's probably just saying that
because he likes the tariffs. But like it made me wonder,
is there any truth to that? Does the stock market
we can talk about the bomb market too, Do the
markets like the tariffs? And is there any aspect to this?
Is that he's right about.
Speaker 6 (09:02):
I will try to maybe make the strongest defense of
that claim, which is there probably is some truth to
the idea that policy uncertainty is not great for the market,
and this would clearly reinject I guess. I suppose policy
uncertainty on the volatility of the tariff policy is probably
narrower than it was back in early April, although there
(09:24):
still seems to be changes every day. So I guess
the idea that the tariffs could be pulled out the
rug from the whole thing, I would not entirely. I
suppose discount the possibility that investors aren't crazy about that.
I don't really believe it directly. I mean, the thing is,
this market is driven by a handful of gigantic tech companies,
and it's mostly an AI story at this point, and
(09:46):
that is an industry in space that largely is unaffected
by the tariffs. So the market is up a lot
since early April, in part because there's been some walk
back from the Liberation Day levels, and also because nothing
has derailed the AI story. Now, there's one other element
that could be interesting, which is that there is quite
a bit of revenue coming into the federal government thanks
(10:09):
to the tariffs. Yes, one of the anxieties in markets
is what's been happening at the long end of developed
market yield curves and sort of bond yields blowing out.
If there is some perception that, okay, deficits are already
very wide and one of the few sources of growing
revenue is going to suddenly disappear, maybe there could be
something where people get more concerned about the fiscal equilibrium
(10:32):
and that having an effect. That was kind of the
story on Tuesday. Like how far I would take that,
I'm not sure, but I suppose I wouldn't completely say
this is not a factor.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
I mean, beyond just the uncertainty which markets notoriously do
not like. It also seems like if for some reason
the tariffs are declared illegal, this is just gonna be
a mess because everybody would have to get their money back.
I can imagine this could sue the government for like
lost business or increased costs. I mean, it seems like
(11:06):
as much as you might dislike the tariffs, as much
as someone might dislike the tariffs, doing away with the
tariffs is a mess.
Speaker 6 (11:13):
Yeah, it would be a mess. I mean, there's sort
of two things going on at once. Here that are
both very interesting. I think longer term economists would say, look,
even if it's messy in the short term, tariffs are
bad tariffs creating efficiencies, They create all kinds of problems.
They create divisions between trading partners and allies that make
it hard to plan. There are all kinds of issues
that tariffs raised, and they would probably say, look, yeah,
(11:35):
maybe it'd be a mess in the short term to
dial them back, but does not compare to the mess
the tariff's introduced, So.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Better to like wade through the mess.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
Yes, And I mean I think most economists would say,
let please get rid of them now. The one complication
I would say here is that I would say that
there is a perception in the United States right now
that we have this dysfunctional public sector and decisions essentially
can't get made. Things can't get built, legislation can't get past,
et cetera. This is because of the sort of very
(12:06):
diffuse nature of democracy, where there are a lot of
veto points, et cetera, and a lot of people aren't
crazy about how many veto points there are in American democracy,
whether at the court level or the local level, et cetera.
How hard it is to build things, et cetera. There's
this frustration of stagnancy in the built environment and in
the policy environment. And perhaps someone would say, well, if
(12:27):
the Supreme Court undermines the Trump tariffs, this just confirms
the fact that nothing can get done in America. We
can't set a new chart, a new policy course.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Now.
Speaker 6 (12:36):
Again, like the ability to tariff is something that is
theoretically in the Congress of purview and theoretically should only
be used by the White House in emergency situations. The
congressation in.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Fact invoked those emergency situations. But like for all the
countries in the world.
Speaker 6 (12:51):
And Congress has not stood up for itself. So if
Trump is sort of usurping this power that belongs to Congress,
it's not like Congress has really complained, or certainly the
Republican leaders of Congress. Nonetheless, I suppose if the Supreme
Court were to rule the tariffs and valid the money
was no longer be connected. It may feed into this
idea that the American sort of presidential three system of power.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
It's difficult.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Well, there's also the risk branch. When we're talking about INSERTNTY.
I was just trying to think Okay, Well, what is
the incertainty, because if they invalidated the tariffs, then like,
I don't know, it seems pretty certain we don't we
don't know those tariffs. But it seems like part of
the risk is that Trump would somehow to ignore the
Supreme Court or do some other additional thing that would
(13:38):
further create a sense of uncertainty.
Speaker 6 (13:40):
And well, we're in a very weird situation right now
with a TikTok band where there does not seem to
be any legal basis whatsoever for TikTok to exist on
the app stores in the United States. That law has
not been repealed at all, but the White House uniletter
I said, I'm just going to not ignore it. We're
just not going to pay attention to the lower can
enforce it. But that's a very weird situation, Like, right,
(14:04):
why it's so it is it is illegal by the law,
and yet no one is enforcing the ban for better
or worse. But that what if the Supreme Court said
no tariffs can no longer be collected and the White
House instructed the ports to keep collecting the tariffs. I mean,
this is potentially it's a very weird situations here.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I mean also, if you're running a business and you're
trying to figure out what to do, and you're like, okay,
should we if the tariffs are locked in, it would
be better for us to build a factory and start
making things here, or invest in iron mine or whatever
it is. But it's just hard to know if it's
going to get overturned or if it's going to go
away with the next president. It's like where do you
invest your money? You can't really grow and expand the
way you could if you had like a clear course totally.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
So this is a really important dimension, which is that
the longer these tariffs exist in any form, the more
likely it is that they will exist forever. Because once
you start getting any company that is making domestic investments
predicated on the existence of tariffs, that company is a
perpetual lobbyist for the existence of.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
A lobbyist, but like a lobbyist with a pretty good
case to make. We should talk about the bomb market
a little bit, because, like what Joe said about the
stock market is true, like the stock market has done
really well during the Trump presidency, but it could just
be a comment on like in Vidia and maybe maybe
in fact if if there weren't tariffs to.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
Video, but we know that a huge amount of it
is attributable to these companies.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Anyway, keep going, yeah, yeah, So anyway, I was just
that's a segue for stations.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
So since the tariff conundrum happened, since it seems like
the legalities come into question in a serious way, the
bond market has reacted in this way where like yields
have gone up, in other words, kind of interest rates
have gone up. The US is perceived to be a
riskier place to put your money.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yes, so what is going on?
Speaker 6 (15:51):
I guess one way to think about this question, and
it gets back to I think you really have to
talk politics, and you really have to talk about this
idea of whether you feel that over the next several
years we will still even have a nominally or truly
independent central bank that can set rates at will or
set rates sort of independent of the political cycle, regardless
(16:13):
of who is in the White House. And so if
you're going to put your money in the US for
a long time, if you're going to lock up your
money for a long time, you probably would like that
the central bank to feel. You would like that confidence
that the central bank will do at its job to
preserve the value of your currency, avoid high inflation, if
you are worried about the political status of the central bank,
(16:36):
if you're worried that an entity will no longer exist
that is committed to doing getting to two percent inflation
sort of whatever the cost because of something upstream in
the political cycle, et cetera. I don't know, maybe you
want a little bit more compensation in your long term
holdings to compensate you for this risk.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Well wait, that doesn't really have anything to do with
Liberation Day though, or like the tariffs, I mean.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
Or it doesn't really you're no, no, it's totally true.
So it only has anything to do with it in
so far as all of this is a commentary on
US political stability.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Well totally. Like if you're if you're lending money to
the US government, you're like, okay, I like the most
of those people like the global financial system as it
exists today, Like the US is like integrated, this like
incredibly successful experiment in politics and capitalism that played out
starting after World War Two. Yeah, and if Trump is
blowing that up, that makes you nervous. I think that's
(17:33):
what it is.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
Yeah, I think that's right, And all of these things
are just sort of novelties within the American political system. Right,
say the Supreme Court were to say tariffs are illegal,
I mean broad based. First of all, the broad based
tariffs on these emergency claims, that's a novelty. The idea
of the Supreme Court, then reversing tariffs, that's a novelty.
A potential dispute between the White House and the judicial branch,
(17:57):
that's a novelty. All of these things, right, that we
sort of took for granted, certain institutional arrangements. And this
is where I get back to the FED itself. The
way I think about the FED is it's been encased
in glass, right, and it sort of let operate to
do its own thing.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And the independence is like a little glass.
Speaker 6 (18:13):
But it could get shattered, and maybe it will get
shattered at some point, or maybe it already has been
shattered or at least cracked, based on the fact that's
already coming under a lot of criticism. So a lot
of institutional arrangements which had been perceived to be stable
are perceived to be less stable. And once again, the
FED is part of that and could have a factor
in the degree of the payment that you want in
(18:36):
order to keep your money in dollars long term.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And just to bring it back to this initial question,
like treasury yields went up yesterday, which again kind of
feeds Trump's idea that like, yeah, we need those terrifts market,
and what you're saying is this is another the story
is kind of the same. It's an uncertain it's a
certainty versus.
Speaker 6 (18:53):
So I think part of this too, you know where
it's really bad is in the UK right now that
it's getting a lot of attention is how much they're buying.
Yields are blowing out at the long end, but it's
really it's Japan too, and they're you know, for them
long term rates like one point eight percent, which is
very low, but it's Japan, so for them that's very
high by their grand standard of things. But there is
(19:16):
this concern I would say two concerns at least in
maybe three concerns within rich developed countries, which is that
they have unfavorable demographics, that they have aging populations that
are going to require a lot of resources that and
a lot of that will soak up and burden a
lot of the productive labor. Two, some combination of this
(19:40):
burden of the aging population and then other sort of
the hollowing out of industrial activity specifically because of competition
with China. Is this fear that the productive base of
rich Western or you know, sort of rich liberal countries
is going to get hollowed out, et cetera. And then
finally add on to these things this sort of evident
(20:01):
political dysfunction which kind of exists everywhere. I mean, we
see it. I think people perceive political volatility in the
US the certainly you look at the UK and also
doesn't look like they can get anything done. They're always
having these very piaun scandals that seem to be at
the cover of the paper. But everywhere you look there's
similar things going on. There's these sort of stresses that
(20:22):
are being put on the sort of political arrangements. So
you combine all these three things together and there's sort
of this global story going on that is beyond just
the question of tariff revenue.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
So Joe, little known fact, well maybe not that little known,
but you are in a band that's right called Seek Crewure,
and I had a musical questions for you because this
is so weird.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Max is going to die, But It's the first thing
that came into my.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Head when I read about the illegal possibly illegal tariffs,
which is that song by the Clash, like do I
stay or do I go?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Oh yeah Gray so hun Because it seems like with
the tariffs, this is the case like if they stay
in place.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
There's going to be trouble. If they go away, do
it'll be double.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
I love the setup that.
Speaker 8 (21:05):
Was thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
It's a really long setup, no, but it putt I
appreciate you rolling with it.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
I think there are a lot of things like that
these days, where we sort of arrive at these forks
in the road and we'd sort of want them to
never be resultd because neither of the resolutions seem great.
I mean, I think about this with AI. Do we
want the AI bubble to burst or do we want
AI to take all our jobs? I'm not sure at
this point. I think with tariffs, I look, I have
no I'm a journalist. I have no opinion on tariffs.
(21:31):
I just I just report the news and usually I
just ask the questions. Rarely am I answered. Then yes,
all of these things are very strange, and I don't
you know, from a sort of when you balance out
economics with sort of institutional stability, et cetera. I think
there's this feeling that we're hurtling towards genuinely uncharted territory.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I feel like that clash song is how investors feel
about everything, not just yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I feel like it also works with the AI bubble too.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I mean, do we want things to keep going and
get super overheated?
Speaker 9 (22:03):
No?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Do we want the bubble to burst?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
No?
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Yeah, I gotta return, not soon.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
But Joe Wisenthal, thanks for being here.
Speaker 6 (22:12):
Thanks for having me. That was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Shoot, I still shoot I go.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
If you say that you on my.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I'll be tilly end no time, Stacy. Have you seen
Kpop Demon Hunters?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Okay, yes, this is this movie on Netflix. It's this
huge hit. I had not watched it until.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Last night when you your enthusiasm about this topic encouraged
me to watch it and.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I really liked it.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
All right, So listeners to this show know that I
have three children. My oldest is ten. I think this movie,
I think snuck up on everyone who isn't ten years old.
It is on Netflix. Came out almost three months ago,
maybe two and a half months ago. It is on
track to be the most watched or maybe it already
is the most watched film on Netflix two hundred and
(23:03):
sixty six million views.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Definitely the movie of the summer as we're recording it.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, and it is the movie the Summer, I think,
which is weird because there have been a couple other
big Netflix movies before, big streaming things before, but I
don't think they've ever quite broken out culturally in the
way that this one has. And again it's not just Netflix.
If you pull up Spotify their global one hundred list
of top songs, you got what it sounds like, which
is number nine. This is a musical, by the way,
(23:29):
how It's done, number six, your idol number five, Soda
Pop number four.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And these gold bangs.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
So this gold is a banger. It is like the
hottest song right now.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
It's on my exercising mix.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
This movie is gonna make a fortune, and we have
a great person to talk about it. Sam Sanders is here.
He is host of the Sam Sanders Show, which you
should subscribe to if you don't. Just a really smart
cultural commentator. Sam, How you.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Doing, I'm good, y'all.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
Finally got me to watch K pop Demon Hunters, which
had been on my list, and let me tell you,
I was dancing in the living room with the dog
last night.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
It's really cute and it's really fun.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
All right, So Stacy, you wanted to just kind of
quickly summarize the premise here. I mean, it's basically in
the title they're K pop stars and they hunt demons.
It's like Nake's on a plane level, like obvious. Well, okay,
so there is a band.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
It's three women and they are like born like demon
slayers and they slay the demons of the world with
their voices, which creates some kind of a network that
slays demons anyway. But that is also an evil boy
band made up of like five very handsome men who
(24:45):
are singing for evil.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
They're demons too. It's an animated film. It's a musical,
and it came out, like I said, like back in June,
and I think it's snuck up on a lot of people.
It's snuck up on me for sure. Like I only
really became aware of it over the last week when
I was on vacation and my children watched it like
seven times in a row. But like, I'm kind of
(25:06):
curious when you started to kind of hear chatter about this,
like when you became aware that this was going to
be a phenomenon, that you were going to be talking
about this, you know, in a professional capacity.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
At some point, the songs kind of crept into my algorithm.
I used Spotify mostly for streaming, and all of a sudden,
Golden began to show up. And for the longest time,
I just said, Oh, that's some new K pop band.
They always got a new one over there in K
pop world. Then I realized, oh, this is from a movie.
Then I googled a movie and I'm like, oh, it's
a massive, massive hit.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
It really surprised everybody.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
It surprised Sony, it surprised Netflix, and I think that
says a lot about how most executives in the entertainment
industry actually.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Don't know anything. They don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, I'm this movie. I didn't know this going into
taping this, but like I guess, animated movies are really
expensive to make. This movie costs one hundred million dollars
to make. Oh wow, I've read that like it is
gonna be a billion dollar movie, and that's a big
deal because it didn't have a theatrical release. Sam like
people who don't pay attention to this business, like how
do you get to a billion dollars or a big
(26:13):
number for a movie that like I can go on
Netflix and stream for free, My kids are streaming for
free NonStop, Like where is the money in something like this?
Speaker 4 (26:21):
For Netflix?
Speaker 5 (26:22):
It's fuzzy math and they'll never tell us everything. The
biggest shift between watching movie and TV viewing go to
streamers as opposed to being in networks back in the
day and the movie theaters. Back in the day, we
had really distinct measures of how shows and movies did.
There were Nielsen ratings that told you that Seinfeld had
(26:44):
thirty five million viewers a week and box office numbers
that said this movie made one hundred million dollars this weekend.
Netflix hides a bunch of that data, but what they're
hoping is that this movie being so popular keeps people
coming back and subscribe, and those subscriber fees will help
their bottom line. There's also an ad tier of Netflix
(27:06):
now that exists, but most people I know don't use it.
So all this to say, whatever hard number they give
you about this movie, it's less about that and more
about winning the conversation.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
And being seen as the biggest, baddest, best stream.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
The subscription fees I mean is the short answer, Like
people like this and they keep subscribing to Netflix, or
they don't subscribe and they resubscribe because they got to
watch K pop demon Hunters.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I want to jump in here and ask you about
something you said earlier, Sam, which is that nobody knows anything,
which I think is really interesting. I mean, the summer
movie of the summer has always been this big deal,
this big deal in business too nobody hit it right
next Netflix seems to have accidentally hit it right, Like,
what's going on here? Why does nobody know nothing?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Right now?
Speaker 5 (27:54):
I will So there's a few things going on we
are seeing movie going in general.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Just go down.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
There used to be a time in our youth where
on the weekends you would go to the movies even
if there wasn't a movie that you really wanted to
go watch.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Well, Barbie Heimer happens. Not that long ago.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
There was the those of you in far between.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Yeah, there are very few monoculture moments and movies anymore,
and only about twelve percent of Americans now go to
the movies at least once a month, and about a
quarter of Americans don't go to the movies at all.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (28:28):
In the midst of this, these studios rely a lot
more on IP like Barbie and other things that folks
already know and will go see. And so if you
look at the biggest performing movies of this year so far,
it's all existing IP, How to Train Your Dragon, Fantastic Four,
Jurassic World, Superman, the Lelo and Stitch sequel.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
So movie going.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Is going down, which means that movie studios rely on
old names that we all know, which means that a
movie like K Pop Demon Hunters, they don't know what
to do with it because it's new, and they're afraid
to take that chance and put it in theaters. So
there's also a really weird story about the way that
Sony and Netflix made the deal that put this film
(29:14):
on Netflix and not.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Any sam You want to just explain that.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Yeah, So, as I mentioned on top of Americans just
going to movies less, the pandemic and that era of
lockdown really decimated movie theaters for a while. They're still
bouncing back, but they're not back to what they were
pre COVID, and they might never get there.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
If I'm being honest.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
However, during that lockdown moment, a lot of movie studios said,
what can we do to keep making movies and not
close our businesses and not lay off all of our staff.
Sony ink to deal with Netflix during lockdown that basically
said we'll make movies, but we know they can't go
to theaters, so we'll sell movies at a flat rate
(29:58):
to Netflix that will then stream these movies on their
platform and then they'll get all the rights. So K
Pop Demon Hunters was a part of this deal, which
meant that even though Sony made the movie, they were
paid twenty million dollars for it, and Netflix got all
the rights and the benefits from having this big.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Hit well the and Netflix paid to make it to
paid one hundred million bucks to make it, and then
another twenty Yeah on top of that, that was the
flat fee part to Sony.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Yeah, yes, yes, but that means that Sony will see
no upside from this movie. And even when Netflix put
K Pop Demon Hunters in theaters for one weekend for
a special sing along edition of this film, Sony the
movie studio saw none of that money.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
WHOA to Netflix?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You know, there's been this debate in Hollywood, I think
over over some period of time, Sam and I know
you're probably familiar with this, but like we have traditional Hollywood,
including a lot of like filmmakers and so on, who
feel like theaters are really important. Theatrical releases are really important.
There's like a kind of cultural reason for that, which
is like they feel like that's what a movie should be.
(31:05):
But there's also like a marketing argument, which is that
theaters are how you create like cultural moments, like you
can't have a movie of the Summer without a theatr.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah, the producers of Crazy Rich Asians turned down more
money from Netflix because the theatrical release was so important
to them.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And Netflix has been kind of like the one saying no, no, no,
you don't need this. So so Ted Sarandos is the
CEO of Netflix at the time one hundred Summit in April,
which that's funny. I don't know what that is, but
it's an event in April held by Time magazine, and
he was asked about theaters. Just listen to what he said.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
Folks grew up thinking I want to make movies on
a gigantic screen and have strangers watch them and play
for the the in the theaters for two months and
people cry and sold out shows.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
It just doesn't happen very much outdated.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
So I'm kind of curious Sam, if you agree with that,
or if there's anything to what he's saying, and if
K Pop demon Hunters maybe helps make make the point,
because they did create a cultural moment in a kind
of an interesting and maybe arguably new way.
Speaker 8 (32:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
I mean, I talk a lot about the ways in
which Americans are just not going to the movies like
they used to.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
It kind of makes me sad. I love movies.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
I actually think that movie going does a lot for
social and cultural adhesion.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
Like it is a community experience.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
There are few feelings better than watching a really good
movie in a theater and then talking to the stranger
next to you about how it was afterwards.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
I think it's good for like society.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
So I'm sad that we don't go as much, But
I think that the trend lines are just inevitable. I
tell folks a lot. I compare movie going right now
to opera going. There was a time in Western culture
where opera was the most popular thing ever, and on
the weekend you went to the opera and at night
for a date.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
You went to the opera, and everyone went to the opera.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
Right, Opera doesn't not exist now, it still exists. There
are people who sing opera and make money doing opera,
but it's not nearly as dominant as a cultural force.
I think movie going in the classical sense at the
movie theater is going the way of opera.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
We're all just going like people in like over dressed
old people coming out of movie theaters.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, well, am I going to be one of these people?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Do you buy the marketing argument? Everything you're saying could
be true, But opera or some movie releases that are
not necessarily big moneymakers could be events that like allow
a project to gather enthusiasm or excitement or whatever. I
think there have been a lot of people arguing this
is a way to signal to people, like this is
a thing you need to see, this is a big deal,
(33:37):
like any of that. But you think that could also
go away.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
When is the last time that happened?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Probably it's like Barbieaks.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
The last several years.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
But like those were things where Christopher Nolan as a
director is as close to existing ip as you can
get in a human being, and Barbie is a brand
that we've all known for decades. I really think that
as movie goes the way of opera, the own things
that will work and become cultural moments or things that
were already a cultural moment.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Before we let you go, Sam, I wanted to ask
you about kind of like what happens next. I mean
we were talking about the money earlier, like some of
the money's gonna be in sequels, right, there hasn't actually
been a ton of mercery.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I've not seen the last of Kop Team.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
And because this took people by surprise, like they didn't
have enough time to like, oh really, there's some a
little bit, but not as much as you would normally
have for something like this, they're gonna be sequels. I'm
kind of curious, Sam, what you think the lessons are,
I mean beyond just like we're gonna see I'm sure
copycat type stuff. What are people in entertainment? How are
(34:36):
the smart ones thinking about this? What are they gonna
learn from this?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Like, I mean, there has been a decade plus of
movie studios relying a lot on existing ip to make
their money, so big brands that you already know and love,
sequel after sequel after sequel, But all the trend lines
say that this won't last forever. Most of the time,
when you extract all these sequels from ongoing IP, it's
(35:02):
diminishing returns with each sequel. That's happening with the biggest
franchises is in Hollywood, and so Hollywood's about to face
a problem. They actually need new IP. And you know
what K Pop Demon Hunters is, It's new IP. So
I think the lesson here for all of Hollywood and
all these executives is that they're gonna have to start
taking chances again because the trough they're feeding from is
(35:25):
eventually going to run dry. How many Jurassic World movies
can we put up with?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Stacy?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Don't ask that how many questions, Sam, because they answer
could be a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Sam Sanders, thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Thanks Sam.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
To everyone listening. It's good for America. Go to the movies.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yes, Please go to the movie Yes co sign and
be sure to check out Sam Show, The Sam Sanders Show.
I just listened to their year interviews so far episode.
It's great checking.
Speaker 9 (35:51):
Out all right, Stacey, Max, I have a confession to
make and I feel like this makes me almost like
(36:13):
anti American, like what.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I hope I don't get deported for saying this, but
I am not a big fan of like a pumpkin
spice coffee, and I feel like that is one of
the institutions of this. It's as American as apple pie
and baby.
Speaker 6 (36:27):
Well.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I have something to admit as well, which is I've
never actually had a pumpkin spice latte.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
We're gonna do this whole segment without actually trying one.
That's that seems harsh, but you have an underrated story
and it pertains this.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yes, in fact, so pumpkin spic season has launched its
official and it is an economic force. The pumpkin spice,
which is apparently like cinnamon, nutmeg clothes little mix. Apparently,
visits to Starbucks go up by twenty four percent in
pumpkin spicison.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
People love this mix.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Apparently you and I are just in the extreme minority
of non pumpkin spice.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
But also, pumpkin spice is also what you need if
you're making a pumpkin pie, right or sweet potato pie.
I love, which is a delicious thing. Yes, so it
can't just be.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
I like my coffee to taste like coffee. I'm a purist.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I'm just glad that Starbucks has something to look forward to,
because you know, we were talking the other day about
the challenges that they've had. But yes, pumpkin spice season,
this is going to be great for them.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Well it is and it isn't.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
So Starbucks is possibly now in a situationship with the
pumpkin spice latte because not only are coffee prices up
like fifteen percent over last year, which is enormous for
a number of reasons, but all the spices in the
pumpkin spice latte are imported, and so those are all being.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Affected by tariffs.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
And the pumpkin spice latte since two thousand and five
when it started being the price started being tracked, is
up by almost seventy percent.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Okay, wait wait, break that down for us. So how
much did it cost back in.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Uh, three dollars in thirty five cents?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Okay, now it is.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
It's like around seven dollars and fifty cents eight bucks.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
And that's before these tariffs kicked in.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Well, the tariffs may have slightly kicked in. I don't
know if Starbucks has been stockpiling pumpkin spices. One can
only imagine that when they saw this coming, they were like,
you know, it's a very important thing. But you know,
if these tariffs get locked into place, all these spices, cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, like,
we do not grow them in the US.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So they're mostly coming from Asia.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
I think, yes, India and Indonesia, and like the places
where the spices come from are all being hit by tariffs.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
I find it funny there's so much political discourse right
now where you have sort of like Democrats saying these
tariffs are are really bad and Republicans say, no, they're
not bad, and it's like, well, we don't really have
to argue about it. You can just look at the
prices of certain goods and like they're going up, I mean,
and you can sort of debate whether or not that's
(38:58):
a big price increase with that's like a politically a problem,
Like there are a bunch of debates you can have
about it, but like the prices don't really.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Lie unless you think Max that coffee is the only
thing on the line here. I would just like to
pose it that pumpkin spice has now infiltrated almost every
corner of consumer culture. There is pumpkin spice, cup of noodles.
Oh god, there is pumpkin spice spam. There are pumpkin spice, doritos, slurpies, hummus, ramen, pringles,
(39:32):
cough drops, my personal favorite, cat litter. There's poppins spice,
cat litter. It's everywhere, everywhere. I mean, imagine the pumpkin
spice inflation alone. The economic impact is going to reverberate
earthquake style.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Through the we had. If we had like Scott Bessen here,
he would say, look, the President is just trying to
reorient the US economy away from pumpkin spice, and I
would say, amen to that.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
You're all for it. You're not going to start drinking pumpkins, spice, lattes.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Or cat litter. All right, Stacey, Before we go, I
gotta just read some of the emails. We got to
the A I think I met.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
We got a lot this one we should say. This
show was we had.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
On Exitron noted Ai Hater, really awesome conversation about mentioned
it at the top of about sort of the ways
in which, no matter how excited you are about this stuff,
there are there seem to be some real economic.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
It's possibly very overvalued in a way that could crash
the lot.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
I gotta tell you, Stacey, we got some some haters
listening to this show. So Rick wrote in complaining that
I don't use it unless it's forced upon me. Take
that college students complaining essentially about the electricity, the water usage,
and like the fact that as a consumer you don't
always get value. Talking about customer service phones being converted
(41:03):
over to AI. He complained about doctor's offices, which actually
came up in another note from another correspondent I think
his name is Yoshin, but wrote in complaining about basically
having his doctor's office put him in touch with like
an AI agent and that feeling really interesting, Haley Icky.
I mean, the most interesting note we got was a
(41:26):
sort of lengthy one from Josh, who is by his
account anyway, a Carnegie Mellon trained machine learning engineer, and
he's basically saying like Although he wrote, well, I don't
always agree with Ed's approach to arguing against the current
hysteria gripping markets around AI, he's right about the fundamental
disconnect between hype and reality. I don't see this to
(41:48):
mean that there's no utility in LMS. There are clearly
are narrow applications where they provide value. However, the ROI
is highly suspect given the capital required to produce what
will likely remember as the twenty first century lies. Now,
I had to.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Twenty first century Eliza look as in like Eliza Doolittle.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
No, Eliza was a a like very early chatbot from
like the nineteen sixties. Okay, and I had to I
had to google that, But I mean again, it didn't
I was.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
All in my fair lady, I was, you know.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
But anyway, awesome emails all around on this topic, like
keep them coming. I think we really liked that conversation.
In particular. We're gonna, as we said on the other one,
we're going to try to keep coming back to this topic.
So so keep sending us ideas examples. Let us know
what you thought of K pop demon Hunters, what it
could tell you about what we can learn from Hollywood.
That's everybody's at Bloomberg dot net. Everybody's with an ass
(42:40):
at Bloomberg dot net.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Do you still consider yourself an AI skeptic?
Speaker 1 (42:45):
I feel like everyone should be an AI skeptic, especially
if you're a journalist. Like journalists by nature are supposed
to be skeptical of everything. I try not to use
AI because I think it's going to actually make me
a worse writer, and I think that everyone is kind
of melting their brains a little bit.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Well, you wouldn't want us to put it on the
show or give it a job on the show. Definitely
not what we should probably do. The credits.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
This show is produced by Stacy Wong.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Magnus Henrickson is our supervising producer and Amy Keen is
our editor.
Speaker 8 (43:15):
We get engineering from Blake Maples and Dave Purcell.
Speaker 6 (43:18):
Fact checks Sage baumanheads Bloomberg Podcasts.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
Special thanks to Jeff Muscus, Julia Rubin and Maria.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Ling, who are these voices. If you have a minute,
please rate and review the show.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
It means a lot to us.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
If you do, Max will drink a Venti Pumpkin spice
latte during next week's show. This will be enforced.
Speaker 8 (43:38):
And if you have a story that should be our business,
email us at everybody sat Bloomberg dot net. That's everybody
with an S said Bloomberg dot net. Thank you for listening.
See you next week.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Resistance is feudal max check you will be assimilated except
your fate.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
I would like to to think, uh, the descript AI
generated voices that contributed to this, including Owen and Grace,
they contributed to them.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
They're not voices, they're just mathematical models. It's an auto computer.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
You have to drink of spice latte if somebody reviews
the show, so that's that's interesting.
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