March 23, 2023 • 31 mins
In 1977, Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom left Chicago to build a dream home in rural North Georgia. Five years later, the gay couple were robbed and murdered in their home. The story sparked a media frenzy, revealing widespread paranoia about the Satanic Church and homosexuality. We dig into the case with B.T. Harman, writer and host of the historical crime podcast "Catlick."
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
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Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rascha Peccarero
and I'm Yvett Gentilay, and today we're talking about the
murders of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom, which is also
known as the Corpsewood Manner Murders. And you guys, this
one really has it all. Satanism, sex parties, and a
(00:47):
creepy mansion in the woods.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It sure does.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
But it's also about two people trying to break free
from a society that did not accept them, and they
ended up six at least for a little while, until
that society came for them and did them in.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Listeners familiar with the Satanic Panic Scare of the nineteen
eighties might be familiar with this case, which took place
in the Deep South. No less, and here is an
interesting fact. Bobby Lee Cook, a famous lawyer who was
involved with the Atlanta child murders and the case that
inspired Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, played
a part here. He represented the sons of one of
(01:30):
the murder victims in the estate dispute that followed the murders.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
And that was the same lawyer that inspired the TV
show Mattlocke that ran in the nineteen eighties and the
nineteen nineties. Anyhow, today we are incredibly excited to welcome
podcaster B. T. Harmon, who has also written about this
case for Atlanta Magazine. I am incredibly honored to dig
(01:57):
deep into the story of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odin
with BT today. But first our producer Trevor is going
to take us through today's case.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
They became not necessarily the classical interpretation of devil worshipers
quote Satanists. They became basically earth worshiping people. Their architectural
style of their home, their patterns for living, the total
dependence on the earth and its source of power, their
total dependence on their own food sources, their total independence
(02:32):
from all embarrassed types of lifestyles.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom were a couple who were
murdered in their home in Treon, Georgia in nineteen eighty two.
Charles and Joseph had moved to Chattooga County, Georgia, from Chicago,
where Charles taught for many years at Loyola University. Charles
was a lover of science, art, drama, and music, and
(02:58):
considered himself extremely counter cultural. He kept a pet monkey,
dyed his hair unusual colors, and heavily identified with the
Adams family. Charles was also publicly a member of the
Church of Satan, and would even drive into town in
a jeep that he had painted with pentagrams. The Church
of Satan supported the notion that anything goes between two
(03:20):
consenting adults, and it was a place where he found
acceptance in a time when mainstream American society didn't accept
gay people. In the late nineteen seventies, Charles and Joseph Odam,
then his live in housekeeper, decided to leave Chicago on
a plot in rural Georgia. They cleared the land, laid
(03:40):
the bricks and insalled a water pumping system for what
they would call Corpsewood manor their dream house, on forty
five acres. The home included a library with books on
the occult human skulls and a pink gargoyle over the
front entrance. There were also stained glass windows that Charles
had made himself, and on the third floor of this
(04:01):
building was a space they called the Pink Room, and
that's where the couple would entertain guests. The walls were
decorated with candles, whips, chains, and even a log book
listing guest sexual predilections. And in nearby Treon, Georgia, rumors
surrounded these quote homosexual devil worshipers, as they were sometimes called,
(04:23):
but people would still visit just to see the place,
and Charles would give visitors homemade wine and let people
hunt on their property. One of those visitors was a
troubled teenager named Kenneth Avery Brock. Avery, as he was known,
had had a number of alleged sexual encounters with Charles Scudder,
and he believed that Charles and Joseph were millionaires. As
(04:46):
it turns out, this was not true, but on the
night of December twelfth, nineteen eighty two, Charles and Joseph
were throwing a party. Avery Brock came that night bringing
his friend to Tony West. Together, Avery and Tony hatched
a plan to rob their hosts. In the pink room,
Charles served their guest homemade wine while Joseph stayed in
(05:08):
the main house to clean up after dinner. That's when
Avery stepped out and returned with a rifle, and he
pointed it directly at Charles. Then Avery bound and gagged
Charles with a bedsheet. Avery then went to the main house,
where he found Joseph in the kitchen and shot him
four times. He also killed the couple's two dogs. The
(05:29):
killers then dragged Charles into the house, where they ripped
off his gag and asked him where the money was.
Then they shot and killed Charles. Avery and Tony then
ransacked the house, but left with only a handful of
coins and a few knick knacks. The pair were later
arrested and both were eventually sentenced to life in prison.
(05:50):
The trial and surrounding coverage of the murders played on
fears that were widespread at the time, both about Satanism
and about homosexuality. Years later, the abandoned Corpsewood Manor was
vandalized and burned to the ground. Today, only ruins remain
of the once elegant structure. In rural North Georgia. And
(06:12):
so who were Charles Scudder and Joseph odom and how
does their story reflect the dangers of living through a
period of American history rife with paranoia, homophobia, and violence.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Oh looha everyone, I am so excited to welcome our
guest for today's episode. So joining us to discuss the
murder of Charles Scudder and Joseph odom Or.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
As many of you know, this is.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Also called the Corpsewood Murders is writer B. T.
Speaker 6 (06:49):
Harmon.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
BT has written at length about this case for Atlanta Magazine,
and he is also the host of the true crime
historical podcast Catolic. He joins us, now, welcome at Komo
may to Facing EVILBT.
Speaker 7 (07:06):
Thank you, it's good to be here.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
We are so.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Honored to have you here, and we're just going to
dive right in. My sister and I of course have
done a deep dive. We know who you are, but
we want our listeners to know more about you. So
if you could tell us a little bit about your history,
particularly with true crime, and what brought you to historical
true crime.
Speaker 7 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:28):
So, I'm forty one years old, live in Atlanta, Georgia.
I grew up in a small town in Alabama called
Florence and had a corporate job for a while, and
then about six or seven years ago, launched out on
my own to start a new career. So got into
kind of creative consulting, working with small businesses, and in
the midst of that, decided to launch two podcasts. So
(07:48):
my first podcast was called Blue Baby's Pink. It's sort
of my personal coming out story and very memoir esque.
And then my second podcast was completely different, a total
one to eighty. We went to from a personal story
of faith and sexuality to true crime and history. And
so I launched the podcast called cat Lick in twenty nineteen,
(08:09):
and it covers a very unique span of time in
Atlantis history between nineteen eleven and nineteen fifteen and four
separate incidences that were playing out. All four really had
sort of an angle of racism, racial terror, and the
stories were just so unbelievably sensational. It was like something
out of Hollywood, and all the newspapers in Atlanta were
(08:30):
covering them simultaneously and not really That podcast was a
result of about five years of very in depth research,
getting very nitty gritty on the historical details, but I'm
really proud of it and how it turned out.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Wow, that's quite a transition, right to go into true crime.
Can I just ask you a question, how did you
come up with the name cat lick?
Speaker 7 (08:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (08:51):
So I just love a good, clever, creative name. And
I discovered this word cat lick. It sort of has
like an English British route and it's kind of a
slang word for like imagine like a mom tells her child, Hey,
go go wash up, and he comes back and he
just sort of he didn't really wash, He just sort
of dusted himself off, and she says.
Speaker 7 (09:09):
No, that's just a cat lick.
Speaker 8 (09:10):
It's like a cat lick do you write you know,
you didn't fully wash.
Speaker 7 (09:13):
And so to me it was it was sort of a.
Speaker 8 (09:15):
Really great proxy for the way this nation has handled
a lot of race issues.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Right.
Speaker 8 (09:21):
Yes, we've we'd like to think that we've done a
thorough washing, but when you really get down to it,
we really haven't.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
And it's just a little cat lick.
Speaker 8 (09:28):
And it has the letters at L right in the
middle of the word catlick, which was you know, I
just thought that was really cool.
Speaker 7 (09:34):
So to me, it was just it was it was
the right name.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. How clever is that on
every level? You know, let's just jump right into it.
Can you tell us when you first heard about the
Corpse Wood murders.
Speaker 8 (09:48):
Yeah, so it was actually in the midst of producing Catlic.
I was releasing weekly episodes and I got an Instagram
message from a fan who was listening to catlic and.
Speaker 7 (09:55):
He said, hey, your next podcast should be about the Corpse.
Speaker 8 (09:58):
Would Manner murders. And id ever heard of that before? So,
of course, did what we all do. I googled it
and boy, that was a whole rabbit hole and I
probably spent I don't know, two or three hours just
learning about that case. And it took place, you know,
maybe forty maybe sixty miles north of where I live
here in Atlanta, happened in the seventies and eighties, And
so once I discovered that that was on my radar
(10:20):
and I thought, boy, this is a this is a
fascinating story on a lot of levels.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I want to know so much more, bt so much more,
like I mean, especially not having heard about it and
then hearing about it from a fan.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Do you know that area? And did it surprise you?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That this type of thing or horrific murder would happen
in that rural area in Georgia.
Speaker 8 (10:43):
Yeah, so the learn that took place. It's a county
called Chattooga County. Like I said, it's about an hour
hour and a half drive north of Atlanta. Of course,
I'm in Atlanta for over a decade now. Love the city, progressive, global,
big airport, a lot of just great arts and culture scene. Yeah, diversity,
it's great. But you know, like a lot of states,
once you get you know, a ways outside of the
(11:05):
big city, things get very rural very quickly. And I listened.
I grew up in a small town. I love small
town USA. I think it's fantastic, and my heart is
still there in some ways. But yeah, Chatooga County. The
city is called Tryon, which is where these gentlemen lived. Yeah,
extremely rural. And when I went there, you know, because
again the whole story took place in the late seventies,
so this was we just had the fortieth anniversary of
(11:28):
the murders, right, And so when I went there, I
was I was just shocked at how rural it still was, right.
Speaker 7 (11:34):
I mean forty years later, right, right, And something I.
Speaker 8 (11:37):
Can't imagine what this area was like, you know, forty
years ago, because even today, I mean it's, you know,
a beautiful area, but just impossibly different from Atlanta in
so many ways.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I would love to know what you personally thought, especially
on your journey and going to try on and just
seeing it for yourself. Did you feel like vibes? Was
it haunted?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
What were your first instincts and feelings when you were there?
Speaker 8 (12:08):
Yeah, So one of the days I was there was
the middle of the summer. It literally was one hundred
and one hundred and three degrees that day, so just
one of these sweltering southern hot days that you know,
grow up in Alabama very familiar with. But yeah, visiting
that area obviously, I wanted to get a feel for
what's it like now? And it was really interesting.
Speaker 7 (12:24):
You know.
Speaker 8 (12:24):
I had lunch at one of the few little cafes
in town, and my waitress was maybe in her twenties,
and I just said, you know, hey, have you ever
heard of the Corpsewood Manor Murders? And her eyes, you know,
they got real big, and she said, oh, yeah, that's over,
that's over on Devil Worshippers Mountain. And you know, my
all of high school, our friends would go up there,
and one of my friends she stole a brick, and
you know, if you steal a brick from the ruins,
you're cursed. And sure enough her her parents were in
(12:47):
a car wreck. So yeah, there was that kind of energy.
And she told me, she's like, if you go up there,
bring a baseball bat. And so, you know, it's just
it's small town.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
It's folklore.
Speaker 8 (12:55):
At this point, those stories are, you know, etched in
the minds of everyone in that county. And I got
in my car and I drove up Mountain View Road.
I mean, up this winding gravel road. All the houses
have sort of these big, sort of impending fences and gates,
and you know, rebel flags are flying and don't tread
on me flags, and so, I mean it did have
(13:15):
sort of this ominousness about it. And I got up
there and it was remarkably creepy. I mean, I feel
like that's.
Speaker 7 (13:23):
So cliche to say, and obviously there's a psychology thing.
Speaker 8 (13:26):
Going on there in my head, but yeah, it just
had this it sort of had a heaviness about it.
And the site is now privately owned and you technically
aren't supposed to go there, but lots of people still
go up there and trapes around the property and go
through the ruins. The house has collapsed. It was burned
shortly after the whole incident happened. Arson has set fire
to it, so it is just a very haunted ruins.
(13:48):
Now it's bricks. There's the old arch, one of the
main arches from the gazebo that was there, overgrown with
vines and so it's just dense woods. But yeah, it
definitely has that energy to it.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Do you think that Charles was, you know, into Satanic
stuff or do you think he was just an atheist
and just you know, he and Joseph were just living
their lives doing you know, the things that they enjoyed doing.
What do you think about that? Because it's like we create,
you know, we create stuff in our head right of
what we think people are doing, but are they actually
(14:42):
doing that stuff?
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (14:44):
So this is where I again, I am not an
expert on the Church of Satan. I grew up my
dad was a Southern Baptist pastor, so you know, I
don't have expertise here, but based off my research.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Me either yeah, right, not like either.
Speaker 8 (14:56):
When the Church of Satan started, It wasn't they weren't
committing duplicitous acts and you know, sacrificing animals. It's almost
like a troll job, right, It's like for people who
are atheists, this is a great way to kind of
troll people of faith. So Charles Scudder was a he
was a counterculture guy. I mean he I think I
read at one point he had pink hair.
Speaker 7 (15:17):
I believe I read.
Speaker 8 (15:18):
And you have to fact check me. I think he
had a pet monkey at one time.
Speaker 7 (15:22):
So yeah, that's it.
Speaker 8 (15:25):
And so I kind of viewed his involvement with the
Church of Satan is like it was just another way
to kind of be different. And you know, but he
did the symbology. He definitely loved you know, when he
built the Big Mannor there were statues of Baphomet, and
there were stained glass windows with pentagrams, and of course
there was this towering pink gargoyle over the main doorway.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
And so I've seen the photos.
Speaker 8 (15:45):
Yeah, yeah, right, so you know they definitely I mean,
he he was a card carrying member. They literally have
found his name on rolls at the church. The membership
role at the Church of Satan. So what level he
was involved, we don't know, but we don't Again, there's
no record of him doing anything criminal around his Church
of Satan involvement.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
You know, when you think about Charles and Joseph like
doing this so many years ago and the times that
we live in now, right, it's crazy to go and
do that. But back then, they had to have such
tremendous courage, like just to go out in the middle
of nowhere and build their dream home and do the
(16:28):
things that they did, Right, I mean, don't you find
that fascinating and interesting that they were definitely I would
say ahead of their time back then.
Speaker 8 (16:37):
I think courageous is an appropriate word. I think there
was also an element of desperation. Right, You've got these
two men. They are living in the suburbs of Chicago
or all intensive purposes, they're closeted. You know, this was
a time where it was still very scary.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
To be gay, even in an urban area like Chicago.
Speaker 8 (16:55):
You know, we had the AIDS epidemic was just around
the corner, you know, it kind of began early eighties,
and so you know, it really shows the level to
which these men were willing to go to kind of
escape that closeted life, and there you know, there's a
narrative here beyond just the sexuality piece. There's a narrative
of just sort of being fed up with the trappings
(17:15):
of modernity as it were, right like I think they
were also just Scudder had been working at Loyola. He
wrote extensively about the increased paperwork, and the students were
less respectful, and his colleagues were kind of jerks to him,
and so there's an element of that of just wanting
to escape from the stress of modern life and get
back to the land. So there's kind of that component.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
There's a lot of different narratives in this story.
Speaker 8 (17:38):
There's a sexuality angle, there's a satanic panic situation, which
is a whole other angle that was happening and we
were right in the throes of that in the late seventies.
And then there's sort of this get back to the
land angle as well.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Do we think all the rumors when all that came out,
especially when they were investigating the murders, you know, obviously
their life lifestyle was on trial as opposed to the
murderers being on trial. Do you think it was all
surrounding homophobia and paranoia.
Speaker 8 (18:10):
Took a couple of days after the murders, but when
the Atlanta media picked up this story, uh, one of
the phrases that kept coming up in their headlines were
homosexual devil worshipers. Right, what's the weight of that phrase.
I mean, it's you know, if you're a journalist, that's
fantastic clickbait as much as clickbait could have could have existed.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Sensationalism and it's finest.
Speaker 8 (18:31):
That's it, right, And so so that that that became
part of the narrative very early, and that was a
significant piece. You have two men who were both sexual
and religious minorities in a extremely rural, very uh you know,
very conservative, uh, small town, and so.
Speaker 7 (18:47):
That that was a big part of it.
Speaker 8 (18:49):
I'll tell you an interesting, an interesting anecdote from this
story in the newspaper clippings. The sheriff, who was the
primary sort of investigator, once all that, once the murders happened.
I believe even one of his court testimonies, the discussion
of motive came up and he said, this is someone
who was keenly aware of what was happening. He attributed
fifty percent of the motive of the murders was robbery.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Because the money they thought they had.
Speaker 7 (19:14):
Okay, yep.
Speaker 8 (19:16):
He chalked up the other fifty percent too, the fact
that they were gay and that they were quote unquote
devil worshippers. And when that came up with one of
the suspects, I think it was Avery Brock. He said, basically,
we gave those devil worshippers, you know what they had coming.
That's a paraphrase. And so there was a hate crime
element to this beyond just the robbery. And I think
that was you know, again, it's this dehumanization thing. When
(19:38):
we judge people so severely, we dehumanize them, then doing
violence to them is no longer that big of a
deal because they had it coming.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Right, never thought about it that way, Yeah, I mean
from their perspective, I've never thought about that. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
It's just so interesting because you know, like Russia was
saying about our great grandfather who had all these wild parties,
you know, in the Franklin House here in Los Angeles,
the same thing goes for you know, Charles and Joseph
they were having you know, these sex parties and people
coming in and out of the house. I mean, do
you think that these guys were like wanting to take
(20:15):
advantage of them in some way, you know, because one
of the guys was having relations with Charles. So do
you think it was definitely premeditated.
Speaker 8 (20:25):
Yeah, we definitely know it was very premeditated. The two perps,
Brock and West, these were not smart people. Their backgrounds
were very shady, you know, petty crime from an early age.
One of the gentlemen actually murdered someone when he was
a child. I think it was a relative or something,
and so he.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Was his brother.
Speaker 8 (20:43):
Yeah, yeah, that's right, right, and so that was part
of this. Uh so it was definitely premeditated. Again, it
was a crime of opportunity and there in their minds
they just assumed, well, these these guys have a big house.
There must be money hidden in this house somewhere. So,
you know, just not not the smartest guys on the block.
But that definitely was that was the initial motive which
(21:05):
got the ball rolling.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
This is just such a crazy story, you know when
you think about it. Do they know who actually burned
down the house?
Speaker 7 (21:14):
They don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
They're probably like burn it, burn it to the ground.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Whatever happened here, And all of the folklore that I'm
sure is followed in the years after this horrific murder.
It makes me so sad to see that this something
like this would happen again. I know it was in
the nineteen eighties. We've come a long way yet, We've
(21:39):
got so far to go. But do you think initially,
of course, that their murders were, like you said, dismissed
because these perps dehumanized them because they thought that they
were xyz all these horrible things. Do we think that
it was truly just because they were gay, or do
(22:00):
you think it had a satanic thing too, or all
of the above?
Speaker 7 (22:03):
Yeah, I think it was the perfect storm.
Speaker 8 (22:05):
I mean, even now, if someone is a self availed
homosexual and they are part of the Church of Satan,
that that person would be shrouded in great taboo, right, Yeah,
And so back then, of course, it was probably tenfold
the level of misunderstanding that existed culturally on what it
meant to be gay. I mean, it was just barely
(22:27):
in the American conscience at that point, and as it
existed in that conscience, it was fully taboo, fully disgusting,
fully inappropriate here in the South, fully worthy of being
damned to hell.
Speaker 7 (22:40):
You know.
Speaker 8 (22:41):
I mean, that's the kind of theology that exists in
the South certainly then and it still does today, and
so so yeah, I do think that colored the way
that people thought about this case.
Speaker 7 (22:53):
Back then.
Speaker 8 (22:54):
It was probably kind of easy to dismiss this as
an issue of justice. Well that's what they you know,
that's what they had coming. And there were there were
quotes in several newspapers where they did any man on
the street interviews with folks around Atlanta, and several people
said that wow, which was certainly reflective of the times.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
So what do you think about the sentences that the
two men got. Do you feel that it was a
fair sentence?
Speaker 7 (23:40):
Yeah? I think so.
Speaker 8 (23:41):
I mean, the two gentlemen are still in jail to
this day. They were just young, barely teenagers at the time,
and they're becoming old men in jail, and so, you know,
the justice system prevailed and they were you know, quickly
apprehended within days of the crime, and they're still serving
time for it.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you on that. It's
like it seems like this is the time that our
you know, our system actually worked.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
As long as we've been doing this, it's rare that
that has happened, especially in you know, I can definitely
say that I believe this was a partial hate crime. Yes,
it was probably, like you said, the perfect storm beauty.
But I would love to know, on a personal note
for you, especially, you know, being from Alabama and living
(24:28):
in Georgia and being a for all intents and purposes,
a happily gay married man, how do you relate, if
at all, to Charles and Joseph. How has this case
impacted you and your life?
Speaker 8 (24:46):
So I spent the first thirty ish years of my
life deep in the closet, grew up again in a
very very conservative Christian family, and the only thing I
knew to survive through my childhood, teens and twenties was
to just be closeted. And you know, my coping mechanism
at that time was work. Once I graduated college, I
(25:06):
became a workaholic. And so I can't say that I
perfectly identify with how those two men felt, but I
bet there.
Speaker 7 (25:13):
Was a lot of overlap.
Speaker 8 (25:14):
The feeling of soul crushing shame, the feeling of not
being worthy, the feeling of the crippling fear of imagining
what life would be like if those who knew this
dark secret about you know, what they would do or
how they would judge you. So yeah, I get it,
and I understand why they would want to run from
(25:36):
that life that they had in Chicago and just get
away and build a castle in the woods to try
to find peace. You know, at the end of the day,
that's what everyone's looking for. We're looking for a way
to exist and just live our lives. And I think
that's what they were doing, and so I'm really thankful
that that's not my story. And listen, I'm a very
optimistic person. And as you said earlier, when it comes
(25:59):
to LGBT rights, we've got a long way to go.
But I will be the first to say I love
where we are now. And the life that my husband
and I have been able to build here in Atlanta
is just beautiful. It is unbelievably mundane, right. I mean,
we have two cats, we have a garden in the summer,
(26:20):
and we watch Netflix at night.
Speaker 7 (26:22):
And the fact that we're able to do that like.
Speaker 8 (26:26):
Unbothered for the most part, and we have neighbors that
are so incredibly supportive and love us.
Speaker 7 (26:32):
It's amazing.
Speaker 8 (26:33):
And so to me, that's another sub narrative of this
story is people don't have to necessarily move to the
woods anymore to escape the shame of the closet. You know,
in some areas, you know they probably want to, but
thankfully there are refuges where people can build really beautiful
lives for themselves.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You know what we do here on Facing Eveill we
always look for the light in the darkness. And I
know it's hard to find the light in some case cases,
especially one as gruesome as this. But just in this
short time that we've had with you, I know that
you are a bright, shining light of optimism. Can you
(27:14):
give our listeners and Yvett n I a little light
in the dark. What do you see in this case
that doesn't make it so dark for us?
Speaker 5 (27:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (27:26):
I think two things come to mind.
Speaker 8 (27:27):
I mean, we referenced it earlier, but the justice system
in this case worked yes, yes.
Speaker 7 (27:33):
And again.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
And when you read some of the reports from law enforcement,
you know they went out of their way to say
in their investigation, to be clear, we don't care that
these men were gay or were devil worshippers.
Speaker 7 (27:48):
We are here to serve justice beautiful and so that
was inspiring.
Speaker 8 (27:52):
And these are small town police officers in rural North
Georgia in the nineteen eighties, and they were pushing through
to say justice matters, and we're going to find justice
for these two men, despite what anyone thinks about them.
And I found that really beautiful and inspiring. The second
thing I would say is, you know, it's a lesson
for today, but again, look.
Speaker 7 (28:11):
How far we've come.
Speaker 8 (28:12):
Yes, the fact that we have progressed so far and
LGBTQ rights and people like me are able to build
wonderfully beautiful, mundane lives is really remarkable, and so I
think we all should step back and let that provide
a little hope, because it's really really beautiful hope.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Yes, that's the life, open healing, that is, that's what
it's all about. We completely, one hundred percent enjoyed speaking
with you today.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
BT.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
I love how you're so Southern and you love it
and you just radiate in it, you know, in all
that you are. So you know, what we can all
wish for for ourselves and for others is just happiness
at the end of the day. Just happiness.
Speaker 7 (28:57):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
It's really simple, it's really simple.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
Well, thank you so much, BT for joining us. On
facing evil, and we look forward to chatting with you
again real soon.
Speaker 7 (29:07):
Cheers.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
This week's message of hope and healing goes out to
the pioneers, people like Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom who,
finding no acceptance in the real world, built a world
all of their own.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And they built a space where they could be who
they were in a time when it was hard to
find acceptance in the wider world, and they were happy,
at least for a little while.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Pioneers like these make new spaces and in doing so,
pave the way for others. In an interview with Mother
Earth magazine about building Corpsewood Manner, Charles Scudder wrote, people
often fantasize about trying out different lifestyles, but few actually
change the way they live. They just don't know that.
(29:58):
All it takes is to realize a fan is a
small amount of money, a bit of luck, and a
whole lot of courage.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
In this moment, we honor that courage. Onward and upward.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Ema Emua. Well, that's our show for today.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion
and if there's a case you'd like for us to.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Cover, find us on social media or email us at
Facingeblpod at Tenderfoot dot tv.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
And one small request if you haven't already, please find
us on iTunes and give us a good rating and
a good review. If you like what we do, your
support is always cherished.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
Until next time, Aloha.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(31:21):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(31:45):
favorite shows.
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rascha Peccarero
and I'm Yvett Gentilay, and today we're talking about the
murders of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom, which is also
known as the Corpsewood Manner Murders. And you guys, this
one really has it all. Satanism, sex parties, and a
(00:47):
creepy mansion in the woods.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It sure does.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
But it's also about two people trying to break free
from a society that did not accept them, and they
ended up six at least for a little while, until
that society came for them and did them in.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Listeners familiar with the Satanic Panic Scare of the nineteen
eighties might be familiar with this case, which took place
in the Deep South. No less, and here is an
interesting fact. Bobby Lee Cook, a famous lawyer who was
involved with the Atlanta child murders and the case that
inspired Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, played
a part here. He represented the sons of one of
(01:30):
the murder victims in the estate dispute that followed the murders.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
And that was the same lawyer that inspired the TV
show Mattlocke that ran in the nineteen eighties and the
nineteen nineties. Anyhow, today we are incredibly excited to welcome
podcaster B. T. Harmon, who has also written about this
case for Atlanta Magazine. I am incredibly honored to dig
(01:57):
deep into the story of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odin
with BT today. But first our producer Trevor is going
to take us through today's case.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
They became not necessarily the classical interpretation of devil worshipers
quote Satanists. They became basically earth worshiping people. Their architectural
style of their home, their patterns for living, the total
dependence on the earth and its source of power, their
total dependence on their own food sources, their total independence
(02:32):
from all embarrassed types of lifestyles.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom were a couple who were
murdered in their home in Treon, Georgia in nineteen eighty two.
Charles and Joseph had moved to Chattooga County, Georgia, from Chicago,
where Charles taught for many years at Loyola University. Charles
was a lover of science, art, drama, and music, and
(02:58):
considered himself extremely counter cultural. He kept a pet monkey,
dyed his hair unusual colors, and heavily identified with the
Adams family. Charles was also publicly a member of the
Church of Satan, and would even drive into town in
a jeep that he had painted with pentagrams. The Church
of Satan supported the notion that anything goes between two
(03:20):
consenting adults, and it was a place where he found
acceptance in a time when mainstream American society didn't accept
gay people. In the late nineteen seventies, Charles and Joseph Odam,
then his live in housekeeper, decided to leave Chicago on
a plot in rural Georgia. They cleared the land, laid
(03:40):
the bricks and insalled a water pumping system for what
they would call Corpsewood manor their dream house, on forty
five acres. The home included a library with books on
the occult human skulls and a pink gargoyle over the
front entrance. There were also stained glass windows that Charles
had made himself, and on the third floor of this
(04:01):
building was a space they called the Pink Room, and
that's where the couple would entertain guests. The walls were
decorated with candles, whips, chains, and even a log book
listing guest sexual predilections. And in nearby Treon, Georgia, rumors
surrounded these quote homosexual devil worshipers, as they were sometimes called,
(04:23):
but people would still visit just to see the place,
and Charles would give visitors homemade wine and let people
hunt on their property. One of those visitors was a
troubled teenager named Kenneth Avery Brock. Avery, as he was known,
had had a number of alleged sexual encounters with Charles Scudder,
and he believed that Charles and Joseph were millionaires. As
(04:46):
it turns out, this was not true, but on the
night of December twelfth, nineteen eighty two, Charles and Joseph
were throwing a party. Avery Brock came that night bringing
his friend to Tony West. Together, Avery and Tony hatched
a plan to rob their hosts. In the pink room,
Charles served their guest homemade wine while Joseph stayed in
(05:08):
the main house to clean up after dinner. That's when
Avery stepped out and returned with a rifle, and he
pointed it directly at Charles. Then Avery bound and gagged
Charles with a bedsheet. Avery then went to the main house,
where he found Joseph in the kitchen and shot him
four times. He also killed the couple's two dogs. The
(05:29):
killers then dragged Charles into the house, where they ripped
off his gag and asked him where the money was.
Then they shot and killed Charles. Avery and Tony then
ransacked the house, but left with only a handful of
coins and a few knick knacks. The pair were later
arrested and both were eventually sentenced to life in prison.
(05:50):
The trial and surrounding coverage of the murders played on
fears that were widespread at the time, both about Satanism
and about homosexuality. Years later, the abandoned Corpsewood Manor was
vandalized and burned to the ground. Today, only ruins remain
of the once elegant structure. In rural North Georgia. And
(06:12):
so who were Charles Scudder and Joseph odom and how
does their story reflect the dangers of living through a
period of American history rife with paranoia, homophobia, and violence.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Oh looha everyone, I am so excited to welcome our
guest for today's episode. So joining us to discuss the
murder of Charles Scudder and Joseph odom Or.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
As many of you know, this is.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Also called the Corpsewood Murders is writer B. T.
Speaker 6 (06:49):
Harmon.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
BT has written at length about this case for Atlanta Magazine,
and he is also the host of the true crime
historical podcast Catolic. He joins us, now, welcome at Komo
may to Facing EVILBT.
Speaker 7 (07:06):
Thank you, it's good to be here.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
We are so.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Honored to have you here, and we're just going to
dive right in. My sister and I of course have
done a deep dive. We know who you are, but
we want our listeners to know more about you. So
if you could tell us a little bit about your history,
particularly with true crime, and what brought you to historical
true crime.
Speaker 7 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:28):
So, I'm forty one years old, live in Atlanta, Georgia.
I grew up in a small town in Alabama called
Florence and had a corporate job for a while, and
then about six or seven years ago, launched out on
my own to start a new career. So got into
kind of creative consulting, working with small businesses, and in
the midst of that, decided to launch two podcasts. So
(07:48):
my first podcast was called Blue Baby's Pink. It's sort
of my personal coming out story and very memoir esque.
And then my second podcast was completely different, a total
one to eighty. We went to from a personal story
of faith and sexuality to true crime and history. And
so I launched the podcast called cat Lick in twenty nineteen,
(08:09):
and it covers a very unique span of time in
Atlantis history between nineteen eleven and nineteen fifteen and four
separate incidences that were playing out. All four really had
sort of an angle of racism, racial terror, and the
stories were just so unbelievably sensational. It was like something
out of Hollywood, and all the newspapers in Atlanta were
(08:30):
covering them simultaneously and not really That podcast was a
result of about five years of very in depth research,
getting very nitty gritty on the historical details, but I'm
really proud of it and how it turned out.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Wow, that's quite a transition, right to go into true crime.
Can I just ask you a question, how did you
come up with the name cat lick?
Speaker 7 (08:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (08:51):
So I just love a good, clever, creative name. And
I discovered this word cat lick. It sort of has
like an English British route and it's kind of a
slang word for like imagine like a mom tells her child, Hey,
go go wash up, and he comes back and he
just sort of he didn't really wash, He just sort
of dusted himself off, and she says.
Speaker 7 (09:09):
No, that's just a cat lick.
Speaker 8 (09:10):
It's like a cat lick do you write you know,
you didn't fully wash.
Speaker 7 (09:13):
And so to me it was it was sort of a.
Speaker 8 (09:15):
Really great proxy for the way this nation has handled
a lot of race issues.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Right.
Speaker 8 (09:21):
Yes, we've we'd like to think that we've done a
thorough washing, but when you really get down to it,
we really haven't.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
And it's just a little cat lick.
Speaker 8 (09:28):
And it has the letters at L right in the
middle of the word catlick, which was you know, I
just thought that was really cool.
Speaker 7 (09:34):
So to me, it was just it was it was
the right name.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. How clever is that on
every level? You know, let's just jump right into it.
Can you tell us when you first heard about the
Corpse Wood murders.
Speaker 8 (09:48):
Yeah, so it was actually in the midst of producing Catlic.
I was releasing weekly episodes and I got an Instagram
message from a fan who was listening to catlic and.
Speaker 7 (09:55):
He said, hey, your next podcast should be about the Corpse.
Speaker 8 (09:58):
Would Manner murders. And id ever heard of that before? So,
of course, did what we all do. I googled it
and boy, that was a whole rabbit hole and I
probably spent I don't know, two or three hours just
learning about that case. And it took place, you know,
maybe forty maybe sixty miles north of where I live
here in Atlanta, happened in the seventies and eighties, And
so once I discovered that that was on my radar
(10:20):
and I thought, boy, this is a this is a
fascinating story on a lot of levels.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I want to know so much more, bt so much more,
like I mean, especially not having heard about it and
then hearing about it from a fan.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Do you know that area? And did it surprise you?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That this type of thing or horrific murder would happen
in that rural area in Georgia.
Speaker 8 (10:43):
Yeah, so the learn that took place. It's a county
called Chattooga County. Like I said, it's about an hour
hour and a half drive north of Atlanta. Of course,
I'm in Atlanta for over a decade now. Love the city, progressive, global,
big airport, a lot of just great arts and culture scene. Yeah, diversity,
it's great. But you know, like a lot of states,
once you get you know, a ways outside of the
(11:05):
big city, things get very rural very quickly. And I listened.
I grew up in a small town. I love small
town USA. I think it's fantastic, and my heart is
still there in some ways. But yeah, Chatooga County. The
city is called Tryon, which is where these gentlemen lived. Yeah,
extremely rural. And when I went there, you know, because
again the whole story took place in the late seventies,
so this was we just had the fortieth anniversary of
(11:28):
the murders, right, And so when I went there, I
was I was just shocked at how rural it still was, right.
Speaker 7 (11:34):
I mean forty years later, right, right, And something I.
Speaker 8 (11:37):
Can't imagine what this area was like, you know, forty
years ago, because even today, I mean it's, you know,
a beautiful area, but just impossibly different from Atlanta in
so many ways.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I would love to know what you personally thought, especially
on your journey and going to try on and just
seeing it for yourself. Did you feel like vibes? Was
it haunted?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
What were your first instincts and feelings when you were there?
Speaker 8 (12:08):
Yeah, So one of the days I was there was
the middle of the summer. It literally was one hundred
and one hundred and three degrees that day, so just
one of these sweltering southern hot days that you know,
grow up in Alabama very familiar with. But yeah, visiting
that area obviously, I wanted to get a feel for
what's it like now? And it was really interesting.
Speaker 7 (12:24):
You know.
Speaker 8 (12:24):
I had lunch at one of the few little cafes
in town, and my waitress was maybe in her twenties,
and I just said, you know, hey, have you ever
heard of the Corpsewood Manor Murders? And her eyes, you know,
they got real big, and she said, oh, yeah, that's over,
that's over on Devil Worshippers Mountain. And you know, my
all of high school, our friends would go up there,
and one of my friends she stole a brick, and
you know, if you steal a brick from the ruins,
you're cursed. And sure enough her her parents were in
(12:47):
a car wreck. So yeah, there was that kind of energy.
And she told me, she's like, if you go up there,
bring a baseball bat. And so, you know, it's just
it's small town.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
It's folklore.
Speaker 8 (12:55):
At this point, those stories are, you know, etched in
the minds of everyone in that county. And I got
in my car and I drove up Mountain View Road.
I mean, up this winding gravel road. All the houses
have sort of these big, sort of impending fences and gates,
and you know, rebel flags are flying and don't tread
on me flags, and so, I mean it did have
(13:15):
sort of this ominousness about it. And I got up
there and it was remarkably creepy. I mean, I feel
like that's.
Speaker 7 (13:23):
So cliche to say, and obviously there's a psychology thing.
Speaker 8 (13:26):
Going on there in my head, but yeah, it just
had this it sort of had a heaviness about it.
And the site is now privately owned and you technically
aren't supposed to go there, but lots of people still
go up there and trapes around the property and go
through the ruins. The house has collapsed. It was burned
shortly after the whole incident happened. Arson has set fire
to it, so it is just a very haunted ruins.
(13:48):
Now it's bricks. There's the old arch, one of the
main arches from the gazebo that was there, overgrown with
vines and so it's just dense woods. But yeah, it
definitely has that energy to it.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Do you think that Charles was, you know, into Satanic
stuff or do you think he was just an atheist
and just you know, he and Joseph were just living
their lives doing you know, the things that they enjoyed doing.
What do you think about that? Because it's like we create,
you know, we create stuff in our head right of
what we think people are doing, but are they actually
(14:42):
doing that stuff?
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (14:44):
So this is where I again, I am not an
expert on the Church of Satan. I grew up my
dad was a Southern Baptist pastor, so you know, I
don't have expertise here, but based off my research.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Me either yeah, right, not like either.
Speaker 8 (14:56):
When the Church of Satan started, It wasn't they weren't
committing duplicitous acts and you know, sacrificing animals. It's almost
like a troll job, right, It's like for people who
are atheists, this is a great way to kind of
troll people of faith. So Charles Scudder was a he
was a counterculture guy. I mean he I think I
read at one point he had pink hair.
Speaker 7 (15:17):
I believe I read.
Speaker 8 (15:18):
And you have to fact check me. I think he
had a pet monkey at one time.
Speaker 7 (15:22):
So yeah, that's it.
Speaker 8 (15:25):
And so I kind of viewed his involvement with the
Church of Satan is like it was just another way
to kind of be different. And you know, but he
did the symbology. He definitely loved you know, when he
built the Big Mannor there were statues of Baphomet, and
there were stained glass windows with pentagrams, and of course
there was this towering pink gargoyle over the main doorway.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
And so I've seen the photos.
Speaker 8 (15:45):
Yeah, yeah, right, so you know they definitely I mean,
he he was a card carrying member. They literally have
found his name on rolls at the church. The membership
role at the Church of Satan. So what level he
was involved, we don't know, but we don't Again, there's
no record of him doing anything criminal around his Church
of Satan involvement.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
You know, when you think about Charles and Joseph like
doing this so many years ago and the times that
we live in now, right, it's crazy to go and
do that. But back then, they had to have such
tremendous courage, like just to go out in the middle
of nowhere and build their dream home and do the
(16:28):
things that they did, Right, I mean, don't you find
that fascinating and interesting that they were definitely I would
say ahead of their time back then.
Speaker 8 (16:37):
I think courageous is an appropriate word. I think there
was also an element of desperation. Right, You've got these
two men. They are living in the suburbs of Chicago
or all intensive purposes, they're closeted. You know, this was
a time where it was still very scary.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
To be gay, even in an urban area like Chicago.
Speaker 8 (16:55):
You know, we had the AIDS epidemic was just around
the corner, you know, it kind of began early eighties,
and so you know, it really shows the level to
which these men were willing to go to kind of
escape that closeted life, and there you know, there's a
narrative here beyond just the sexuality piece. There's a narrative
of just sort of being fed up with the trappings
(17:15):
of modernity as it were, right like I think they
were also just Scudder had been working at Loyola. He
wrote extensively about the increased paperwork, and the students were
less respectful, and his colleagues were kind of jerks to him,
and so there's an element of that of just wanting
to escape from the stress of modern life and get
back to the land. So there's kind of that component.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
There's a lot of different narratives in this story.
Speaker 8 (17:38):
There's a sexuality angle, there's a satanic panic situation, which
is a whole other angle that was happening and we
were right in the throes of that in the late seventies.
And then there's sort of this get back to the
land angle as well.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Do we think all the rumors when all that came out,
especially when they were investigating the murders, you know, obviously
their life lifestyle was on trial as opposed to the
murderers being on trial. Do you think it was all
surrounding homophobia and paranoia.
Speaker 8 (18:10):
Took a couple of days after the murders, but when
the Atlanta media picked up this story, uh, one of
the phrases that kept coming up in their headlines were
homosexual devil worshipers. Right, what's the weight of that phrase.
I mean, it's you know, if you're a journalist, that's
fantastic clickbait as much as clickbait could have could have existed.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Sensationalism and it's finest.
Speaker 8 (18:31):
That's it, right, And so so that that that became
part of the narrative very early, and that was a
significant piece. You have two men who were both sexual
and religious minorities in a extremely rural, very uh you know,
very conservative, uh, small town, and so.
Speaker 7 (18:47):
That that was a big part of it.
Speaker 8 (18:49):
I'll tell you an interesting, an interesting anecdote from this
story in the newspaper clippings. The sheriff, who was the
primary sort of investigator, once all that, once the murders happened.
I believe even one of his court testimonies, the discussion
of motive came up and he said, this is someone
who was keenly aware of what was happening. He attributed
fifty percent of the motive of the murders was robbery.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Because the money they thought they had.
Speaker 7 (19:14):
Okay, yep.
Speaker 8 (19:16):
He chalked up the other fifty percent too, the fact
that they were gay and that they were quote unquote
devil worshippers. And when that came up with one of
the suspects, I think it was Avery Brock. He said, basically,
we gave those devil worshippers, you know what they had coming.
That's a paraphrase. And so there was a hate crime
element to this beyond just the robbery. And I think
that was you know, again, it's this dehumanization thing. When
(19:38):
we judge people so severely, we dehumanize them, then doing
violence to them is no longer that big of a
deal because they had it coming.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Right, never thought about it that way, Yeah, I mean
from their perspective, I've never thought about that. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
It's just so interesting because you know, like Russia was
saying about our great grandfather who had all these wild parties,
you know, in the Franklin House here in Los Angeles,
the same thing goes for you know, Charles and Joseph
they were having you know, these sex parties and people
coming in and out of the house. I mean, do
you think that these guys were like wanting to take
(20:15):
advantage of them in some way, you know, because one
of the guys was having relations with Charles. So do
you think it was definitely premeditated.
Speaker 8 (20:25):
Yeah, we definitely know it was very premeditated. The two perps,
Brock and West, these were not smart people. Their backgrounds
were very shady, you know, petty crime from an early age.
One of the gentlemen actually murdered someone when he was
a child. I think it was a relative or something,
and so he.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Was his brother.
Speaker 8 (20:43):
Yeah, yeah, that's right, right, and so that was part
of this. Uh so it was definitely premeditated. Again, it
was a crime of opportunity and there in their minds
they just assumed, well, these these guys have a big house.
There must be money hidden in this house somewhere. So,
you know, just not not the smartest guys on the block.
But that definitely was that was the initial motive which
(21:05):
got the ball rolling.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
This is just such a crazy story, you know when
you think about it. Do they know who actually burned
down the house?
Speaker 7 (21:14):
They don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
They're probably like burn it, burn it to the ground.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Whatever happened here, And all of the folklore that I'm
sure is followed in the years after this horrific murder.
It makes me so sad to see that this something
like this would happen again. I know it was in
the nineteen eighties. We've come a long way yet, We've
(21:39):
got so far to go. But do you think initially,
of course, that their murders were, like you said, dismissed
because these perps dehumanized them because they thought that they
were xyz all these horrible things. Do we think that
it was truly just because they were gay, or do
(22:00):
you think it had a satanic thing too, or all
of the above?
Speaker 7 (22:03):
Yeah, I think it was the perfect storm.
Speaker 8 (22:05):
I mean, even now, if someone is a self availed
homosexual and they are part of the Church of Satan,
that that person would be shrouded in great taboo, right, Yeah,
And so back then, of course, it was probably tenfold
the level of misunderstanding that existed culturally on what it
meant to be gay. I mean, it was just barely
(22:27):
in the American conscience at that point, and as it
existed in that conscience, it was fully taboo, fully disgusting,
fully inappropriate here in the South, fully worthy of being
damned to hell.
Speaker 7 (22:40):
You know.
Speaker 8 (22:41):
I mean, that's the kind of theology that exists in
the South certainly then and it still does today, and
so so yeah, I do think that colored the way
that people thought about this case.
Speaker 7 (22:53):
Back then.
Speaker 8 (22:54):
It was probably kind of easy to dismiss this as
an issue of justice. Well that's what they you know,
that's what they had coming. And there were there were
quotes in several newspapers where they did any man on
the street interviews with folks around Atlanta, and several people
said that wow, which was certainly reflective of the times.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
So what do you think about the sentences that the
two men got. Do you feel that it was a
fair sentence?
Speaker 7 (23:40):
Yeah? I think so.
Speaker 8 (23:41):
I mean, the two gentlemen are still in jail to
this day. They were just young, barely teenagers at the time,
and they're becoming old men in jail, and so, you know,
the justice system prevailed and they were you know, quickly
apprehended within days of the crime, and they're still serving
time for it.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you on that. It's
like it seems like this is the time that our
you know, our system actually worked.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
As long as we've been doing this, it's rare that
that has happened, especially in you know, I can definitely
say that I believe this was a partial hate crime. Yes,
it was probably, like you said, the perfect storm beauty.
But I would love to know, on a personal note
for you, especially, you know, being from Alabama and living
(24:28):
in Georgia and being a for all intents and purposes,
a happily gay married man, how do you relate, if
at all, to Charles and Joseph. How has this case
impacted you and your life?
Speaker 8 (24:46):
So I spent the first thirty ish years of my
life deep in the closet, grew up again in a
very very conservative Christian family, and the only thing I
knew to survive through my childhood, teens and twenties was
to just be closeted. And you know, my coping mechanism
at that time was work. Once I graduated college, I
(25:06):
became a workaholic. And so I can't say that I
perfectly identify with how those two men felt, but I
bet there.
Speaker 7 (25:13):
Was a lot of overlap.
Speaker 8 (25:14):
The feeling of soul crushing shame, the feeling of not
being worthy, the feeling of the crippling fear of imagining
what life would be like if those who knew this
dark secret about you know, what they would do or
how they would judge you. So yeah, I get it,
and I understand why they would want to run from
(25:36):
that life that they had in Chicago and just get
away and build a castle in the woods to try
to find peace. You know, at the end of the day,
that's what everyone's looking for. We're looking for a way
to exist and just live our lives. And I think
that's what they were doing, and so I'm really thankful
that that's not my story. And listen, I'm a very
optimistic person. And as you said earlier, when it comes
(25:59):
to LGBT rights, we've got a long way to go.
But I will be the first to say I love
where we are now. And the life that my husband
and I have been able to build here in Atlanta
is just beautiful. It is unbelievably mundane, right. I mean,
we have two cats, we have a garden in the summer,
(26:20):
and we watch Netflix at night.
Speaker 7 (26:22):
And the fact that we're able to do that like.
Speaker 8 (26:26):
Unbothered for the most part, and we have neighbors that
are so incredibly supportive and love us.
Speaker 7 (26:32):
It's amazing.
Speaker 8 (26:33):
And so to me, that's another sub narrative of this
story is people don't have to necessarily move to the
woods anymore to escape the shame of the closet. You know,
in some areas, you know they probably want to, but
thankfully there are refuges where people can build really beautiful
lives for themselves.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You know what we do here on Facing Eveill we
always look for the light in the darkness. And I
know it's hard to find the light in some case cases,
especially one as gruesome as this. But just in this
short time that we've had with you, I know that
you are a bright, shining light of optimism. Can you
(27:14):
give our listeners and Yvett n I a little light
in the dark. What do you see in this case
that doesn't make it so dark for us?
Speaker 5 (27:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (27:26):
I think two things come to mind.
Speaker 8 (27:27):
I mean, we referenced it earlier, but the justice system
in this case worked yes, yes.
Speaker 7 (27:33):
And again.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
And when you read some of the reports from law enforcement,
you know they went out of their way to say
in their investigation, to be clear, we don't care that
these men were gay or were devil worshippers.
Speaker 7 (27:48):
We are here to serve justice beautiful and so that
was inspiring.
Speaker 8 (27:52):
And these are small town police officers in rural North
Georgia in the nineteen eighties, and they were pushing through
to say justice matters, and we're going to find justice
for these two men, despite what anyone thinks about them.
And I found that really beautiful and inspiring. The second
thing I would say is, you know, it's a lesson
for today, but again, look.
Speaker 7 (28:11):
How far we've come.
Speaker 8 (28:12):
Yes, the fact that we have progressed so far and
LGBTQ rights and people like me are able to build
wonderfully beautiful, mundane lives is really remarkable, and so I
think we all should step back and let that provide
a little hope, because it's really really beautiful hope.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Yes, that's the life, open healing, that is, that's what
it's all about. We completely, one hundred percent enjoyed speaking
with you today.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
BT.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
I love how you're so Southern and you love it
and you just radiate in it, you know, in all
that you are. So you know, what we can all
wish for for ourselves and for others is just happiness
at the end of the day. Just happiness.
Speaker 7 (28:57):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
It's really simple, it's really simple.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
Well, thank you so much, BT for joining us. On
facing evil, and we look forward to chatting with you
again real soon.
Speaker 7 (29:07):
Cheers.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
This week's message of hope and healing goes out to
the pioneers, people like Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom who,
finding no acceptance in the real world, built a world
all of their own.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And they built a space where they could be who
they were in a time when it was hard to
find acceptance in the wider world, and they were happy,
at least for a little while.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Pioneers like these make new spaces and in doing so,
pave the way for others. In an interview with Mother
Earth magazine about building Corpsewood Manner, Charles Scudder wrote, people
often fantasize about trying out different lifestyles, but few actually
change the way they live. They just don't know that.
(29:58):
All it takes is to realize a fan is a
small amount of money, a bit of luck, and a
whole lot of courage.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
In this moment, we honor that courage. Onward and upward.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Ema Emua. Well, that's our show for today.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion
and if there's a case you'd like for us to.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Cover, find us on social media or email us at
Facingeblpod at Tenderfoot dot tv.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
And one small request if you haven't already, please find
us on iTunes and give us a good rating and
a good review. If you like what we do, your
support is always cherished.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
Until next time, Aloha.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(31:21):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(31:45):
favorite shows.
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