May 4, 2023 • 39 mins
Michael Bear Carson and Suzan Carson are often known as the San Francisco Witch Killers. They are responsible for at least three murders in the 1980s, and likely more across North America and Europe. Dr. Jenn Carson, Michael's daughter, has devoted her life to overcoming the trauma of her family history. We sit down with Dr. Carson to discuss her life experience and advocacy work.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
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Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm vet Gente
Lay and I'm Rosha Peccerreiro. Today we're going to do
things a little bit differently on Facing Evil because we
are going to have a guest on that is somewhat
of a.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Victim of this case.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
She doesn't like to call herself a victim, but you're
going to understand why once we get into the discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, and there's going to be a mic drop at
the very end, so wait for that. But the case
that we're talking about is the San Francisco witch killings
that to place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty three.
The two killers were Michael Bear Carson and Susan Carson,
and they murdered at least three people. And our guest
(01:12):
today is doctor Jen Carson. She is Michael Carson's daughter.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Yes, that's right, and doctor Jen Carson has an incredible
story of resilience and survival, and she's one of the
most inspiring humans I have the pleasure of knowing. I'm
so honored to have her here with us today. I'm
facing evil, but first our producer Trevor is going to
walk us through today's case.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
The couple labeled the San Francisco Witch Killers Michael Bear
Carson and his second wife Susan smiling is the camera rule.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
They're wicked. They're just wicked. He ran into the Carsons
that were traveling through and they were killing witches, and
she said that Clark was a witch and they therefore
killed him.
Speaker 6 (02:04):
I remember thinking, I'm the daughter of the devil.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
The San Francisco witch killings were a series of connected
murders that took place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen
eighty three. The first victim was twenty three year old
Karen Barnes, who was found dead in her apartment in
March of nineteen eighty one. She had been stabbed thirteen times,
wrapped in a blanket and hidden inside the basement. Then,
(02:31):
in May of nineteen eighty two, the burnt remains of
twenty six year old Clark Stephens were found in Humboldt County, California.
Stephens had been shot to death before his body was burned. Finally,
in January of nineteen eighty three, thirty year old John
Charles Hallier picked up two hitchhikers near Bakersfield. The two
(02:52):
hitchhikers apparently stabbed and shot Hewlier by the side of
the road. A passer by witnessed this murder and called
the police. The two assailants fled, but crashed their car,
and then they were apprehended. The two were named Michael
bhar Carson and Susan Carson, and it was soon revealed
that they were responsible for all three murders, and perhaps
(03:14):
even more, they admitted to killing Karen Barnes, who was
their roommate, because Susan believed Karen was a witch. After
killing her, they fled, eventually settling on a marijuana farm
in Alder Point, California. This is where they met Clark Stevens,
a fellow farmer. Stephens and others believed that the Carsons
(03:34):
were anarchists who were preparing for an inevitable nuclear apocalypse.
After a dispute with Stevens, Michael Carson shot and killed him.
After fleeing once more, the Carsons left behind a manifesto.
In it, they alluded to plans to assassinate President Ronald Reagan,
and thus they became major suspects in a secret service
(03:56):
investigation once they were captured following the murder of John
Hell You're on the Highway. The Carsons claim to have
traveled to Europe and back. They are suspects in over
a dozen other unsolved murders in Europe and in the
United States. They were eventually convicted for all three murders
and are both still serving sentences of seventy five years
(04:16):
to life. Another victim in this case was Jen Carson,
Michael's daughter from a previous marriage. Jen's mother, Lynn, divorced
Michael when Jen was only three years old. Michael remarried
Susan the following year. Jen described her stepmother as quote
the wicked witch. According to Jen, Susan refused to feed
(04:37):
Jen when she came to visit. Susan would also tell
Jen that she was the devil, that she was going
to hell, and that she deserved to die. Fearing for
her daughter's life, Lynne packed up and took Jen to
live with her uncle. Only later did Jen learn of
the terrible things her father had done. And so who
were Michael Bhare Carson and Susan Carson? What led them
(04:59):
down a murder crime spree in the nineteen eighties? And
how does one come to terms with being close family
to such a cold blooded killer?
Speaker 4 (05:11):
So today, on Facing Evil, we are so honored to
have doctor Jen Carson joining us. Doctor Carson has shared
her inspiring journey which has taken her from being a
suicidal child of a homicidal parent to a mental health advocate.
She speaks regularly at mental health awareness and suicide prevention events,
(05:34):
and has been featured on CNN and PR, The Today Show,
the BBC. The list goes on and on. I'm only
naming a few here at Komo May Welcome to Facing Evil,
Doctor Jen Carson.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Hi, how are you.
Speaker 6 (05:50):
I'm so excited to be with you both today.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
We're so excited to have you, doctor Jen.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
I just I love the both of you, and I'm
so glad your family is my life.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
So we feel the exact same way.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
So before we get to, of course, the amazing work
that you do, now, can you just share a little
bit with us about your childhood and where you started
and where you came from.
Speaker 6 (06:17):
Yeah, no, definitely. So my parents met in the counterculture
movement in college and were involved in war protests and
the music and so on. For those of you who
are familiar with the Chicago Seven trial, they were in
the audience. Wow, they were at the sly In Family
(06:40):
Stone Riot and Grant Park in Chicago. So kind of
like they were just kind of right in the mix
of things in that late nineteen sixties, and they really
bonded over their love of you know, history and philosophy
and so on. And my father looked like he had
a really great career ahead of him. It was his
(07:02):
hope to become an academic professor, and my mom also
to be an educator. He came from an incredible middle
class family and there was not a traumatic background, okay,
and so you had a you know, kind of great
future ahead of him. And after I was born and
(07:23):
my mom had finished their degrees at University of Iowa
and went to graduate school at University of South Carolina,
engaged in a program to work in recently desegregated schools.
So kind of really rooted in civil rights, right, yeah,
and they were teaching and an elementary school where you know,
(07:45):
kind of all the white teachers had taken off, and
so they were serving there. And then soon after they
moved to the Phoenix area to serve in a similar
program with Native American youth. And that time my father's
mild min illness became more severe. His recreational drug use
(08:06):
went from also mild to severe. My mother, after almost
a decade, chose to divorce him, and he did then
receive joint custody. And then one fateful night, he went
to a party at a woman named Susan's house. She
was a wealthy divorcee in Scottsdale, Arizona, and had had
(08:30):
a huge divorce settlement and was kind of having a
midlife crisis and he went to a party at her
house and he never left. He and Susan were together
and they sold all her assets from the divorce and
decided to go in a worldwide spiritual journey of some
sort of some kind of pilgrimage. But before they left,
(08:53):
they did a lot of damage. During my joint custody visits,
I had some pretty horrific visits. That is when the
literal horror movie of my early life started.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
That's a whole lot to unpack, Like to start from
such a powerful place, you know, of doing such good
and then to fall into this craziness. Would you say
that it's when he met Susan that changed.
Speaker 6 (09:22):
I feel like a lot of people in this case
boil it down to like a Jimmy Buffett line, which is,
you know, some people say there's a woman to blame,
and so a lot of people see this case as
the traditional dominant and submissive and that my father is
submissive in this and I now know of him being
(09:43):
violent prior definitely see some you know, evidence of treating
me quite well due to narcissism. You know, I look
like him and I was a mini himn versus you know,
what we would consider love. And so I just don't
that narrative that a lot of people have around this case.
(10:03):
When they meet she had had some long term mental
illness with some kind of psychosis and some hallucinations that
had been controlled by medication, and so in my mind,
he's almost using her delusions as an excuse to be violent.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
To act out.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
Yeah, you know, she did horrifically abuse me. I have
had lifelong flashes of her dunky me underwater, and there
was an incident where she scratched open my back and
there were five nail marks that looked like a where
wolf had come at me. That is when my mother
decided to take off. Was that incident. Prior to that
(10:43):
she had concerns about me being at their home. Sure,
but she was absolutely petrified and essentially did a custodial
kidnapping at that point to protect you, to protect me.
And we were then in hiding for a good part
of five years. Oh wow, Jen wow, And no one
believed my mother. She went to everyone and said, he's
(11:03):
these people are going to kill someone. They're going to
kill someone. She went to police, she went to attorneys,
she went to her family, she went to his family,
She went to everyone, and they were remembering the brilliant
boy in college. You know, they weren't seeing.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
They didn't want to believe.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
You know, he'd moved across the country and a lot
of people in his life, you know, and so that's
you know, kind of understandable. But it's just she was incredibly,
incredibly isolated, and you know, the heroic part of the
story is that she remains resolute when no one on
earth believes her. It's like the whole world has gas
lit her. Wow, I mean not one person. It's like
(11:42):
we've all been everyone. Yeah, we've all been in toxic
relationships where an individual, but it's like the whole world
has gas lit her, and she stays resolute and these
people will kill me and my child. We must be safe.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Your mother protected you without a doubt and got you
out of that situation.
Speaker 6 (12:00):
And I think that's one of the bonds I have
with the two of you, because you had a mother
who was an extraordinary individual. My mother's complicated, as all
mothers are. Yes, I think we've bonded on having that
extraordinary mother, you know, So I think that that's powerful.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
I just have to tell you, I am so just
blown away by your honesty and your truth and your authenticity.
And I do know that you are so open about
having suicidal ideations. If I can ask, what was the
catalyst for that? Was it when Susan, you know, started
the abuse? Was it when you were whisked away?
Speaker 6 (13:02):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Or was it all the perfect storm?
Speaker 6 (13:04):
So definitely, you know, I had experienced extensive trauma and abuse.
I briefly mentioned, you know, the custody visits, but there
was so much more exposure to interpersonal violence, you know, trauma.
My mother is working two jobs. I then become that
feral gen X.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Product of a single mom.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
Yeah, also survived some sexual abuse in childhood, and so
there'd been some layers in trauma. And people like to say,
you know that I became suicidal because my father's arrest.
My father's arrest was the last straw, right, So because
you know, at age nine, I become the child of
(13:51):
a serial killer. This is not something that happens to
me when I'm a fully formed adult, right nine, and
I'm like, do I have monster genes? Do Am I
going to be a monster? Am I going to kill people?
And so you know, I definitely perceived that this could
be inherited and you know, and that I would end
(14:13):
up like this. So you know, I was incredibly fearful,
and that's when I started the long battle with both
suicidality and then I'm Russia. You and I have talked
extensively about my eating disorder. Yeah, it's so important to
be trauma informed and say to someone not what's wrong
with you, but what happened to you? Right, So you know,
(14:33):
I can buy all of those things, honestly, but it
has been lifelong journey to keep myself alive.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
You said so many things that you know, obviously we
can relate to because of our family. And I go
back and I think about myself, you know, when I
first found out, and I just I thought the same thing, like,
oh my god, I feel so hooky, so dirty, so
whatever inside because of George Hodell, you know, because what
(15:05):
we've been told, because of what he's been done. But
what I want to ask you is, so what tools
did you use to pull yourself out, to pull yourself up,
to walk out of that pain? You know, I know
it's something that we all have to work on every
single day, but can you give our listeners an example
(15:26):
of what you did to get through it?
Speaker 6 (15:29):
Do you remember the Princess Diana. It was called the
Revenge Dress. Yeah, you know it's public that you know,
Charles has now been unfaithful, hurt for her for a decade,
and she puts on what's called the revenge dress and
she walks and you see her so resolute, and we
know she battled really severe depression needing disorder as well,
(15:50):
and you see her and she walks, she walks into
this event. She's wearing the supposed revenge dress. I'll be
honest with you, there were there were a lot of
people along the way that helped me. You know. There
was you know, uh my third grade teacher, Sylvia kay
So I recently reunited with Yah.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I saw that, Thank you.
Speaker 6 (16:11):
There's you know, girl Scouts. First and foremost always is
you know, my my stepfather of thirty nine years. But unfortunately,
I'm me to be honest with you, there were a
lot of family members that were like, you know, pretty
much like poor Jenny, this poor Jenny that they would
say that, and they would say, you know, essentially I
was going to end up a drug addict and homeless,
(16:34):
and you know, they just thought I was going to
not amount to anything. And so, to be perfectly honest
with you, showing them success is I was that walking
revenge dress for a while and I would just go
and some of these like negative, cruel, toxic relatives are
(16:54):
are gone, right, and so here I am. I you know,
I got a doctorate. They always made fun of my
weight of now you know, have the weight kind of
under control, you know. But it's like it's interesting because
just now in midlife, I've been shedding that over a while. Yeah,
and I've been living a more purpose driven life. But
(17:16):
I would say for a good chunk of my journey,
I was just like resolute to just just show them.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
To prove them all wrong.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
Correct, prove them all wrong. But now in this second
part of my life, I really want to be driven
by other things. Yeah, Now, I would say that would
be what was driving me, maybe personally, definitely in my work,
you know, as you know I'm a suicide hotline manager.
I mean that is absolutely rooted in that help works.
(17:47):
I received help, and so I want to utilize these
gifts I have. But definitely there's there. I think there's
part of me that's still holding on to that, and
I would really like to see myself as I move
forward to let that go and not be the walking
revenge dress.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Right, just walk in your own power.
Speaker 6 (18:04):
Just seek joy and light and realize the best revenge
is to live well, but also just to let go
of revenge, like that's not a thing. I've actually started
meeting with an expert, one of the world's experts on forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Beautiful, can you just tell us, because you did say
earlier that you know, you have a history with our family,
So can you tell our listeners how you actually connected
with our great uncle Steve.
Speaker 6 (18:30):
Yeah. So I wrote in the newspaper that the child
of a prominent serial killer was on suicide watch in
a hospital after their parent was arrested. And I sat
down and I wrote that personal letter, and my best
friend said, you have to publish this. This is really powerful.
So it was published in Reclare magazine, which was a
(18:53):
fashion magazine. Yeah, there was like a French, a Dutch,
you know, German issue, Spanish issue. So it was in
all of those issues. And I was getting contacts from
people all over the world and they were emailing Marie
clareen as being emailed to me. And this this was
(19:14):
prior to social media.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Yeah, two thousand and seven, right, that's when you publicly
came out as the child of a serial killer.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
And I did so prior to other prominent children of
serial killers that now speak publicly, And so I was
one of the I believe I was the first person.
I was the first to go public. So I needed
some sort of support to navigate this. And then after
I read your uncle's book, we became pen pals. And
(19:45):
at the time I was working as a special education
school counselor, and I think he was just retiring from
law enforcement. And this was like seventeen years ago that
we started to be penn and he like just I
am endlessly blown away of the kindness of strangers. And
(20:09):
you know, he has been kind and throughout the years,
for seventeen years, I have randomly reached out for him,
to him for help off and on, and he has
always provided it. And he's just been this kind of
like long distance friend.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Jen.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I didn't actually meet our great uncle Steve until five
minutes before we were on The Doctor Phil Show in
twenty nineteen.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
I have an older relationship with him than you do.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yes, you do, which I think is hysterical.
Speaker 6 (20:36):
Quite amazing. He's quite amazing. He's really something.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You are going above and beyond to pay it forward
to others, but also to prove to yourself that you
are worthy, and that in itself is huge. It's a
lesson for all of us, you know, to learn from.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
I so appreciate that you brought power into the space
because Yvetam so often asked why I have not changed
my last name. You know, my father Michael bar Carson
did not own that last name, right, There were ancestors
before having that last name, and you know, and so
I have chosen to keep my name. And you know,
(21:19):
I'm asked so many kind of weird questions of you know,
do I feel guilty? No, I didn't harm anyone, and
I was eight. So my father's parents were extraordinary people.
My grandmother, Jewish American woman, was threatened for teaching African
(21:40):
American literature in the sixties in Tulsa. She was extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (21:46):
She was a World War Two veteran. Her husband, my grandfather,
was a World War two veteran. He was a college
educated engineer and worked for the Department of Energy and
was an energy advisor in the White House. These were
incredible people. And so I think that people can't wrap
their head around nuance that you can be good people
(22:09):
and your child can be violent, yeah, or you know,
you can have a parent that's a literal human predator.
I mean, my father is a monster. You know, when
you read about vampires and were wolves and what have you,
if you read the history of these origins, there would
be a village in Hungary and there would be a
mutilated body and they didn't know that there were human predators,
(22:34):
so we invented the were wolves and the vampire.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
You knows.
Speaker 6 (22:38):
So my parent is a literal monster and I'm flawed
are but I am certainly not a monster, and I'm
a good and kind person. So people just can't wrap
their head around these things. They want things to be
very simplistic, and life isn't simplistic.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
That was a huge question, I'm sure sure to a
lot of people. Why didn't she change her name? And
you just hit the nail on the coffin.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
There's a couple questions people always ask me, and they
want these reallys that you know, why did your father
become violent? Was it his wife? Was it? Was it drugs?
Was it mental illness? And I'm like it was a
titanic Yeah, like a hundred factors that created this situation.
And so they want me to say, you know, it
(23:30):
was his evil second wife and she hexts on him
and you know whatever, and you know, or was this
and you know he was doing extraordinary amounts of LSD
and I think there was a drug in psychosis. But
also people to mental ill are more likely to be
victims of violence and perpetrate violence, and most people with
(23:53):
types of psychosis are kind. So I also think he's
a sociopath or psychopath that doesn't watch him. Also think
it was the toxic relationship with the second wife. You know,
I think it's a number of things. But people want
me to have a single answer for all these questions
and this is not multiple choice. I won't ask aby's
your d Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
And how dare they ask you that?
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Right? Again, it's it's this concept that I should be
sorry for this or bear some guilt. And I recently
did an interview with People magazine and I got this
backlash of she's trying to sell a book and I
was like, could you link me to my book on Amazon?
(24:35):
Because I didn't know existed. I don't have a book.
I haven't written a book. And you know, they thought
I made all this money, and I said, let me
tell you what People magazine gave me. Because new sources
don't pay people, I told them i'd had I had
a big weight loss. They offered to load me a
couple dresses, and they gave me a sandwich.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Oh yay, sandwich. Hey that's big spender there.
Speaker 6 (24:59):
Yes, And so that was it. So people want to
say Is she a victim or is she a villain?
They also want to say she's the offender's daughter, so
she's either evil and violent or she's trying to make
money off this.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
They do it to us too. Yeah, they want to
put you in a box.
Speaker 6 (25:17):
Yeah. They need this to be black and white. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
And the thing about it is people always want to
create their own narrative in their head without all the facts.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
You are here this week in Portland, and you made
this beautiful you know stone for you know, one of
your father's you know, he's accused of killing this beautiful soul.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Please if you could share that story.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
Yeah, definitely. So I have several interesting things happen. You know,
as I'm speaking publicly about being the former suicidal child
of a homicidal parent, is I have people who contact
I have two sets of people contact me. One is
people who tell me I'm the child of a pedophile,
I'm the child of a serial rapist, I'm the child
of this or that, and you know, I'm able to
(26:28):
love on them and give them some support and navigate.
The other type of people who contact me are people
who say I encountered your father and stepmother and they
almost killed me, okay, and these people will tell me
the story and it matches up.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
The timelines the thing.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
Yeah, yeah, it matches the timeline. And so there are
so many people that they tell me they almost killed
and then you know, one of the contacts I've gotten
over the years is a ton of people from Portland
saying I was friends with Andrea Maren. I knew your
father while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I didn't know that, Jen, I.
Speaker 6 (27:10):
Didn't know you worked at the Benson.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah, I moved here.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
I moved here from HONOLULUAI, and I worked.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Granted, this is I mean, I'm only this is after yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
I know, but you worked at the same hotel. I
mean this is I need the listeners to know this.
Like every time that Rashia and I talk, we have
some intersection and and I have a mic drop at
the end of this episode that okay, like I think
both Russia and Vett are going to like literally like
(27:46):
just be speechless.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Oh my godh my god.
Speaker 6 (27:49):
So while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland.
So so initially my father and stepmother were in they
emigrated to Israel. My father had gotten birth right citizenship.
That's where an individual who is separtic or as Kanasi Jewish,
you know whatever, can acquire citizenship in Israel. So they
(28:10):
were in Israel and then they traveled all over Europe
and there are multiple cold cases in Europe and specifically
in Britain that interpool was suspected of committeing. And I've
offered my DNA to the European entities who want to
close those cases.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (28:29):
So they are then in the United States and primarily
they're growing marijuana on a farm in Humboldt, and then
they're in San Francisco, Portland, Eugene, and they would harvest
and get a cut of the weed at the farm,
and then they were kind of on this circuit between
nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty three where they were selling.
(28:50):
They were primarily spending most of their time in San Francisco, Eugene,
between northern California and Oregon, Eugene, Portland.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
On the West coast.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
Yeah, over the years, a lot of people have contacted
me and they've said, we were acquainted with Michael Baron,
Susan Carson, who were you know, selling weed and at
Portland State University and there was a beautiful young woman
who was murdered and they were friends with her. Her
name was Andrew Maren. Her father was doctor Oscar Maren,
(29:21):
world renowned neuroscience scientists and neurosurgeon who was at a
Good Samaritan in Portland and with University of Oregon. She
was murdered in the same way as my father's known victim,
Karen Barnes in San Francisco. And many people believe that
my father and stepmother murdered her, and they're just everyone
(29:46):
knows it. Everyone believes it, and there's just not physical evidence.
So what I did yesterday is I tapped into my
love for gen Z. Like my nieces and nephews are
just so fun and so I love gen Z, right, Yeah,
I just love it. I love my students of that age.
I just have no one to love for the generation.
(30:07):
So I decided what I was going to do is
just tap into that. I did lay a stone the
sixteen hundred block of Southwest Park Avenue yesterday where Andrew
Marrin was murdered. I laid a stone asking for any tips.
And so what I'm asking is that the Portland State
University students just kick in, and I need you to
(30:28):
go talk to elders. So if you know an elder
who is around forty years ago, will you know individuals
age sixty probably eighty. If you know an elder, you
know a shop owner in the area or faculty, just
go talk to them, see if you can get anything
that we can connect the dots to. And then you
can hit me up and via social media at doctor
(30:48):
Jen Carson. So it's it's it's my hope that we
can do that. And then if you're one of those
people where your mom or dad or aunt and uncle
had talked about encountering these people, you can hit me
up there. I can help you navigate to get that
to the cold case detective so we can maybe bring
some peace here.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
You're incredible, gen Oh my.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
God, So are you ready for the mic drop? Let's
go ahead and do it.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Let's just get into it. Yeah, because you've got me
in mind spinning.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
Your great grandmother was Dorothy Grace Anthony.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Right, Yes, that's Tomorrow's mother.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
So she's she's my grandmother's cousin, so we're.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
So we are related.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
That's what I said earlier.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
I have chicken skin all over my body, gen I
do too.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
We're eighth cousins.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
And up is that okay? Is that from your mom's
side to your dad's side?
Speaker 6 (31:41):
Do you know it's my mother's side.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Well, thank goodness, your non.
Speaker 6 (31:46):
Violent grandmother, my mom, non violent grandmother.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
And we just tripped and fell into somebody who was
bad spit. Yeah. Our shared ancestors were really super cool people.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
We're o'hannah, we're family.
Speaker 6 (32:03):
H Hannah. So our shared ancestors, John Engles and Elizabeth
Barrett were really cool people. And oh my god, please
you to be excited that we're related to his mom.
And I didn't get a chance to tell him.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Well, no, that's not his mom. Dorothy Anthony's is. So
his mom is Dorothy, it's Derrero, it's Derrero. Yeah, you're
really related. Yeah, because George was married to Dorothy's. I know.
Speaker 6 (32:38):
It's very yeah, no I remember that now.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, it's like I can't remember Derrero's but Dorothy.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But Dorothy, you know, lived like two blocks away from
here on Filmore in San Francisco.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
Wow, so your great grandmother Dorothy Grace Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, what wow, Oh my gosh. Okay, now now that
you've blown our mind. I just want to say this,
you know, really quickly before we I know, you know,
you have stuff to do and time is valuable, but
it's so important for you to share with listeners. You know,
people who are going through similar circumstances, you know, such
(33:17):
as yourself, Can you give them some advice of you know,
how to get through whatever they're going through, you.
Speaker 6 (33:26):
Know, because my life and your life, because my family
and your family sounds so freaking melodramatic, right right, right.
People think there's no relation, but there's a commonality suffering
as part of life. Right. We do not go through
this life unscathed. And trauma is trauma, loss is loss,
(33:47):
pain is pain. So we all, we all meet on
this field of suffering in this lifetime. And so I
think that something uniquely that we have is that we
have inherited this shame. Right, But that's not unique either
in the sense that you know, I've met people in
(34:09):
this life who have, you know, incest and violence in
their background. And you know, I had a dear friend
from a false who is from a small town and
her dad was the town drunk. You know, he was
constantly passing out. She's fourteen she's going to pick him
up at the bar.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Sense of shame with that.
Speaker 6 (34:28):
Yeah, I've met individuals who were conceived non consensually and
they were a product of rape and what have you.
And so we meet at these common spaces of shame
and stigma and pain and loss and suffering. And this
is what I know. I know that help works and
(34:51):
hope can be restored.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
You are hope, Jen, You you are the epitome of
hope and light. And I think that's that's why I know,
that's why I have gravitated to you, any that gravitated to.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
You and you your magic.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Thank you well cousin, doctor Jen Carson, Mahalanuiloa for joining us.
Speaker 6 (35:14):
Thank you, and you know everyone, if anyone is experiencing
suicidal thoughts or they have a level and that's experiencing
suicidal thoughts, please call nine eight eight the National Suicide
and Mental Health Crisis Lifeline. It's twenty four hours a day,
text or call. If you are in need of resources
for counseling in your area, called two one one to
(35:34):
get a referral. And if you would like to connect
with me, please follow me at doctor Jen Carson two
ends and i'd love to connect with you, and thank
you rash Maniuvett for you know, being just love and
light and also being leaders in the forefront of ethical
true crime that is based in being trauma informed and
(35:57):
victim centered, and so I appreciate you both so much.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
This week we are dedicating our emua to doctor Jen
Carson's mother and stepfather, Lynn and Mike Gonzales. From the
moment danger was imminent, Lynn protected her child at all costs,
and when Mike, her stepfather, came into their lives, he
showered them with unconditional love and gave them the necessary
(36:30):
tools to heal.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
And this simoa also goes out to those of you
who have had to overcome unthinkable trauma just like doctor
Jen Carson, and you have not only overcome, but you
have transcended over that evil.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
She took that pain and suffering and turned it into
her life's mission to help others heal and to provide hope.
Doctor Carson now runs nine to five to one six
eight six Help the Inland Southern California Crisis Helpline, a
suicide hotline based in Riverside, California.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
If you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts,
or are in a crisis, please call nine eight eight,
the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
You are not alone.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
Onward and Upward ema e moua.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Well, that's our show for today.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion
and if there's a case you'd like for us to cover.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Find us on social media or email us at facingebl,
pod at tenderfoot dot tv.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
And one small request if you haven't already, please find
us on iTunes and give us a good rating and
a good review. If you like what we do, your
support is always cherished.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Until next time.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Aloha.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(38:32):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmage.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(38:57):
favorite shows.
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm vet Gente
Lay and I'm Rosha Peccerreiro. Today we're going to do
things a little bit differently on Facing Evil because we
are going to have a guest on that is somewhat
of a.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Victim of this case.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
She doesn't like to call herself a victim, but you're
going to understand why once we get into the discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, and there's going to be a mic drop at
the very end, so wait for that. But the case
that we're talking about is the San Francisco witch killings
that to place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty three.
The two killers were Michael Bear Carson and Susan Carson,
and they murdered at least three people. And our guest
(01:12):
today is doctor Jen Carson. She is Michael Carson's daughter.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Yes, that's right, and doctor Jen Carson has an incredible
story of resilience and survival, and she's one of the
most inspiring humans I have the pleasure of knowing. I'm
so honored to have her here with us today. I'm
facing evil, but first our producer Trevor is going to
walk us through today's case.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
The couple labeled the San Francisco Witch Killers Michael Bear
Carson and his second wife Susan smiling is the camera rule.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
They're wicked. They're just wicked. He ran into the Carsons
that were traveling through and they were killing witches, and
she said that Clark was a witch and they therefore
killed him.
Speaker 6 (02:04):
I remember thinking, I'm the daughter of the devil.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
The San Francisco witch killings were a series of connected
murders that took place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen
eighty three. The first victim was twenty three year old
Karen Barnes, who was found dead in her apartment in
March of nineteen eighty one. She had been stabbed thirteen times,
wrapped in a blanket and hidden inside the basement. Then,
(02:31):
in May of nineteen eighty two, the burnt remains of
twenty six year old Clark Stephens were found in Humboldt County, California.
Stephens had been shot to death before his body was burned. Finally,
in January of nineteen eighty three, thirty year old John
Charles Hallier picked up two hitchhikers near Bakersfield. The two
(02:52):
hitchhikers apparently stabbed and shot Hewlier by the side of
the road. A passer by witnessed this murder and called
the police. The two assailants fled, but crashed their car,
and then they were apprehended. The two were named Michael
bhar Carson and Susan Carson, and it was soon revealed
that they were responsible for all three murders, and perhaps
(03:14):
even more, they admitted to killing Karen Barnes, who was
their roommate, because Susan believed Karen was a witch. After
killing her, they fled, eventually settling on a marijuana farm
in Alder Point, California. This is where they met Clark Stevens,
a fellow farmer. Stephens and others believed that the Carsons
(03:34):
were anarchists who were preparing for an inevitable nuclear apocalypse.
After a dispute with Stevens, Michael Carson shot and killed him.
After fleeing once more, the Carsons left behind a manifesto.
In it, they alluded to plans to assassinate President Ronald Reagan,
and thus they became major suspects in a secret service
(03:56):
investigation once they were captured following the murder of John
Hell You're on the Highway. The Carsons claim to have
traveled to Europe and back. They are suspects in over
a dozen other unsolved murders in Europe and in the
United States. They were eventually convicted for all three murders
and are both still serving sentences of seventy five years
(04:16):
to life. Another victim in this case was Jen Carson,
Michael's daughter from a previous marriage. Jen's mother, Lynn, divorced
Michael when Jen was only three years old. Michael remarried
Susan the following year. Jen described her stepmother as quote
the wicked witch. According to Jen, Susan refused to feed
(04:37):
Jen when she came to visit. Susan would also tell
Jen that she was the devil, that she was going
to hell, and that she deserved to die. Fearing for
her daughter's life, Lynne packed up and took Jen to
live with her uncle. Only later did Jen learn of
the terrible things her father had done. And so who
were Michael Bhare Carson and Susan Carson? What led them
(04:59):
down a murder crime spree in the nineteen eighties? And
how does one come to terms with being close family
to such a cold blooded killer?
Speaker 4 (05:11):
So today, on Facing Evil, we are so honored to
have doctor Jen Carson joining us. Doctor Carson has shared
her inspiring journey which has taken her from being a
suicidal child of a homicidal parent to a mental health advocate.
She speaks regularly at mental health awareness and suicide prevention events,
(05:34):
and has been featured on CNN and PR, The Today Show,
the BBC. The list goes on and on. I'm only
naming a few here at Komo May Welcome to Facing Evil,
Doctor Jen Carson.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Hi, how are you.
Speaker 6 (05:50):
I'm so excited to be with you both today.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
We're so excited to have you, doctor Jen.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
I just I love the both of you, and I'm
so glad your family is my life.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
So we feel the exact same way.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
So before we get to, of course, the amazing work
that you do, now, can you just share a little
bit with us about your childhood and where you started
and where you came from.
Speaker 6 (06:17):
Yeah, no, definitely. So my parents met in the counterculture
movement in college and were involved in war protests and
the music and so on. For those of you who
are familiar with the Chicago Seven trial, they were in
the audience. Wow, they were at the sly In Family
(06:40):
Stone Riot and Grant Park in Chicago. So kind of
like they were just kind of right in the mix
of things in that late nineteen sixties, and they really
bonded over their love of you know, history and philosophy
and so on. And my father looked like he had
a really great career ahead of him. It was his
(07:02):
hope to become an academic professor, and my mom also
to be an educator. He came from an incredible middle
class family and there was not a traumatic background, okay,
and so you had a you know, kind of great
future ahead of him. And after I was born and
(07:23):
my mom had finished their degrees at University of Iowa
and went to graduate school at University of South Carolina,
engaged in a program to work in recently desegregated schools.
So kind of really rooted in civil rights, right, yeah,
and they were teaching and an elementary school where you know,
(07:45):
kind of all the white teachers had taken off, and
so they were serving there. And then soon after they
moved to the Phoenix area to serve in a similar
program with Native American youth. And that time my father's
mild min illness became more severe. His recreational drug use
(08:06):
went from also mild to severe. My mother, after almost
a decade, chose to divorce him, and he did then
receive joint custody. And then one fateful night, he went
to a party at a woman named Susan's house. She
was a wealthy divorcee in Scottsdale, Arizona, and had had
(08:30):
a huge divorce settlement and was kind of having a
midlife crisis and he went to a party at her
house and he never left. He and Susan were together
and they sold all her assets from the divorce and
decided to go in a worldwide spiritual journey of some
sort of some kind of pilgrimage. But before they left,
(08:53):
they did a lot of damage. During my joint custody visits,
I had some pretty horrific visits. That is when the
literal horror movie of my early life started.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
That's a whole lot to unpack, Like to start from
such a powerful place, you know, of doing such good
and then to fall into this craziness. Would you say
that it's when he met Susan that changed.
Speaker 6 (09:22):
I feel like a lot of people in this case
boil it down to like a Jimmy Buffett line, which is,
you know, some people say there's a woman to blame,
and so a lot of people see this case as
the traditional dominant and submissive and that my father is
submissive in this and I now know of him being
(09:43):
violent prior definitely see some you know, evidence of treating
me quite well due to narcissism. You know, I look
like him and I was a mini himn versus you know,
what we would consider love. And so I just don't
that narrative that a lot of people have around this case.
(10:03):
When they meet she had had some long term mental
illness with some kind of psychosis and some hallucinations that
had been controlled by medication, and so in my mind,
he's almost using her delusions as an excuse to be violent.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
To act out.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
Yeah, you know, she did horrifically abuse me. I have
had lifelong flashes of her dunky me underwater, and there
was an incident where she scratched open my back and
there were five nail marks that looked like a where
wolf had come at me. That is when my mother
decided to take off. Was that incident. Prior to that
(10:43):
she had concerns about me being at their home. Sure,
but she was absolutely petrified and essentially did a custodial
kidnapping at that point to protect you, to protect me.
And we were then in hiding for a good part
of five years. Oh wow, Jen wow, And no one
believed my mother. She went to everyone and said, he's
(11:03):
these people are going to kill someone. They're going to
kill someone. She went to police, she went to attorneys,
she went to her family, she went to his family,
She went to everyone, and they were remembering the brilliant
boy in college. You know, they weren't seeing.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
They didn't want to believe.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
You know, he'd moved across the country and a lot
of people in his life, you know, and so that's
you know, kind of understandable. But it's just she was incredibly,
incredibly isolated, and you know, the heroic part of the
story is that she remains resolute when no one on
earth believes her. It's like the whole world has gas
lit her. Wow, I mean not one person. It's like
(11:42):
we've all been everyone. Yeah, we've all been in toxic
relationships where an individual, but it's like the whole world
has gas lit her, and she stays resolute and these
people will kill me and my child. We must be safe.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Your mother protected you without a doubt and got you
out of that situation.
Speaker 6 (12:00):
And I think that's one of the bonds I have
with the two of you, because you had a mother
who was an extraordinary individual. My mother's complicated, as all
mothers are. Yes, I think we've bonded on having that
extraordinary mother, you know, So I think that that's powerful.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
I just have to tell you, I am so just
blown away by your honesty and your truth and your authenticity.
And I do know that you are so open about
having suicidal ideations. If I can ask, what was the
catalyst for that? Was it when Susan, you know, started
the abuse? Was it when you were whisked away?
Speaker 6 (13:02):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Or was it all the perfect storm?
Speaker 6 (13:04):
So definitely, you know, I had experienced extensive trauma and abuse.
I briefly mentioned, you know, the custody visits, but there
was so much more exposure to interpersonal violence, you know, trauma.
My mother is working two jobs. I then become that
feral gen X.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Product of a single mom.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
Yeah, also survived some sexual abuse in childhood, and so
there'd been some layers in trauma. And people like to say,
you know that I became suicidal because my father's arrest.
My father's arrest was the last straw, right, So because
you know, at age nine, I become the child of
(13:51):
a serial killer. This is not something that happens to
me when I'm a fully formed adult, right nine, and
I'm like, do I have monster genes? Do Am I
going to be a monster? Am I going to kill people?
And so you know, I definitely perceived that this could
be inherited and you know, and that I would end
(14:13):
up like this. So you know, I was incredibly fearful,
and that's when I started the long battle with both
suicidality and then I'm Russia. You and I have talked
extensively about my eating disorder. Yeah, it's so important to
be trauma informed and say to someone not what's wrong
with you, but what happened to you? Right, So you know,
(14:33):
I can buy all of those things, honestly, but it
has been lifelong journey to keep myself alive.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
You said so many things that you know, obviously we
can relate to because of our family. And I go
back and I think about myself, you know, when I
first found out, and I just I thought the same thing, like,
oh my god, I feel so hooky, so dirty, so
whatever inside because of George Hodell, you know, because what
(15:05):
we've been told, because of what he's been done. But
what I want to ask you is, so what tools
did you use to pull yourself out, to pull yourself up,
to walk out of that pain? You know, I know
it's something that we all have to work on every
single day, but can you give our listeners an example
(15:26):
of what you did to get through it?
Speaker 6 (15:29):
Do you remember the Princess Diana. It was called the
Revenge Dress. Yeah, you know it's public that you know,
Charles has now been unfaithful, hurt for her for a decade,
and she puts on what's called the revenge dress and
she walks and you see her so resolute, and we
know she battled really severe depression needing disorder as well,
(15:50):
and you see her and she walks, she walks into
this event. She's wearing the supposed revenge dress. I'll be
honest with you, there were there were a lot of
people along the way that helped me. You know. There
was you know, uh my third grade teacher, Sylvia kay
So I recently reunited with Yah.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I saw that, Thank you.
Speaker 6 (16:11):
There's you know, girl Scouts. First and foremost always is
you know, my my stepfather of thirty nine years. But unfortunately,
I'm me to be honest with you, there were a
lot of family members that were like, you know, pretty
much like poor Jenny, this poor Jenny that they would
say that, and they would say, you know, essentially I
was going to end up a drug addict and homeless,
(16:34):
and you know, they just thought I was going to
not amount to anything. And so, to be perfectly honest
with you, showing them success is I was that walking
revenge dress for a while and I would just go
and some of these like negative, cruel, toxic relatives are
(16:54):
are gone, right, and so here I am. I you know,
I got a doctorate. They always made fun of my
weight of now you know, have the weight kind of
under control, you know. But it's like it's interesting because
just now in midlife, I've been shedding that over a while. Yeah,
and I've been living a more purpose driven life. But
(17:16):
I would say for a good chunk of my journey,
I was just like resolute to just just show them.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
To prove them all wrong.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
Correct, prove them all wrong. But now in this second
part of my life, I really want to be driven
by other things. Yeah, Now, I would say that would
be what was driving me, maybe personally, definitely in my work,
you know, as you know I'm a suicide hotline manager.
I mean that is absolutely rooted in that help works.
(17:47):
I received help, and so I want to utilize these
gifts I have. But definitely there's there. I think there's
part of me that's still holding on to that, and
I would really like to see myself as I move
forward to let that go and not be the walking
revenge dress.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Right, just walk in your own power.
Speaker 6 (18:04):
Just seek joy and light and realize the best revenge
is to live well, but also just to let go
of revenge, like that's not a thing. I've actually started
meeting with an expert, one of the world's experts on forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Beautiful, can you just tell us, because you did say
earlier that you know, you have a history with our family,
So can you tell our listeners how you actually connected
with our great uncle Steve.
Speaker 6 (18:30):
Yeah. So I wrote in the newspaper that the child
of a prominent serial killer was on suicide watch in
a hospital after their parent was arrested. And I sat
down and I wrote that personal letter, and my best
friend said, you have to publish this. This is really powerful.
So it was published in Reclare magazine, which was a
(18:53):
fashion magazine. Yeah, there was like a French, a Dutch,
you know, German issue, Spanish issue. So it was in
all of those issues. And I was getting contacts from
people all over the world and they were emailing Marie
clareen as being emailed to me. And this this was
(19:14):
prior to social media.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Yeah, two thousand and seven, right, that's when you publicly
came out as the child of a serial killer.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
And I did so prior to other prominent children of
serial killers that now speak publicly, And so I was
one of the I believe I was the first person.
I was the first to go public. So I needed
some sort of support to navigate this. And then after
I read your uncle's book, we became pen pals. And
(19:45):
at the time I was working as a special education
school counselor, and I think he was just retiring from
law enforcement. And this was like seventeen years ago that
we started to be penn and he like just I
am endlessly blown away of the kindness of strangers. And
(20:09):
you know, he has been kind and throughout the years,
for seventeen years, I have randomly reached out for him,
to him for help off and on, and he has
always provided it. And he's just been this kind of
like long distance friend.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Jen.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I didn't actually meet our great uncle Steve until five
minutes before we were on The Doctor Phil Show in
twenty nineteen.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
I have an older relationship with him than you do.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yes, you do, which I think is hysterical.
Speaker 6 (20:36):
Quite amazing. He's quite amazing. He's really something.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You are going above and beyond to pay it forward
to others, but also to prove to yourself that you
are worthy, and that in itself is huge. It's a
lesson for all of us, you know, to learn from.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
I so appreciate that you brought power into the space
because Yvetam so often asked why I have not changed
my last name. You know, my father Michael bar Carson
did not own that last name, right, There were ancestors
before having that last name, and you know, and so
I have chosen to keep my name. And you know,
(21:19):
I'm asked so many kind of weird questions of you know,
do I feel guilty? No, I didn't harm anyone, and
I was eight. So my father's parents were extraordinary people.
My grandmother, Jewish American woman, was threatened for teaching African
(21:40):
American literature in the sixties in Tulsa. She was extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (21:46):
She was a World War Two veteran. Her husband, my grandfather,
was a World War two veteran. He was a college
educated engineer and worked for the Department of Energy and
was an energy advisor in the White House. These were
incredible people. And so I think that people can't wrap
their head around nuance that you can be good people
(22:09):
and your child can be violent, yeah, or you know,
you can have a parent that's a literal human predator.
I mean, my father is a monster. You know, when
you read about vampires and were wolves and what have you,
if you read the history of these origins, there would
be a village in Hungary and there would be a
mutilated body and they didn't know that there were human predators,
(22:34):
so we invented the were wolves and the vampire.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
You knows.
Speaker 6 (22:38):
So my parent is a literal monster and I'm flawed
are but I am certainly not a monster, and I'm
a good and kind person. So people just can't wrap
their head around these things. They want things to be
very simplistic, and life isn't simplistic.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
That was a huge question, I'm sure sure to a
lot of people. Why didn't she change her name? And
you just hit the nail on the coffin.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
There's a couple questions people always ask me, and they
want these reallys that you know, why did your father
become violent? Was it his wife? Was it? Was it drugs?
Was it mental illness? And I'm like it was a
titanic Yeah, like a hundred factors that created this situation.
And so they want me to say, you know, it
(23:30):
was his evil second wife and she hexts on him
and you know whatever, and you know, or was this
and you know he was doing extraordinary amounts of LSD
and I think there was a drug in psychosis. But
also people to mental ill are more likely to be
victims of violence and perpetrate violence, and most people with
(23:53):
types of psychosis are kind. So I also think he's
a sociopath or psychopath that doesn't watch him. Also think
it was the toxic relationship with the second wife. You know,
I think it's a number of things. But people want
me to have a single answer for all these questions
and this is not multiple choice. I won't ask aby's
your d Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
And how dare they ask you that?
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Right? Again, it's it's this concept that I should be
sorry for this or bear some guilt. And I recently
did an interview with People magazine and I got this
backlash of she's trying to sell a book and I
was like, could you link me to my book on Amazon?
(24:35):
Because I didn't know existed. I don't have a book.
I haven't written a book. And you know, they thought
I made all this money, and I said, let me
tell you what People magazine gave me. Because new sources
don't pay people, I told them i'd had I had
a big weight loss. They offered to load me a
couple dresses, and they gave me a sandwich.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Oh yay, sandwich. Hey that's big spender there.
Speaker 6 (24:59):
Yes, And so that was it. So people want to
say Is she a victim or is she a villain?
They also want to say she's the offender's daughter, so
she's either evil and violent or she's trying to make
money off this.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
They do it to us too. Yeah, they want to
put you in a box.
Speaker 6 (25:17):
Yeah. They need this to be black and white. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
And the thing about it is people always want to
create their own narrative in their head without all the facts.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
You are here this week in Portland, and you made
this beautiful you know stone for you know, one of
your father's you know, he's accused of killing this beautiful soul.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Please if you could share that story.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
Yeah, definitely. So I have several interesting things happen. You know,
as I'm speaking publicly about being the former suicidal child
of a homicidal parent, is I have people who contact
I have two sets of people contact me. One is
people who tell me I'm the child of a pedophile,
I'm the child of a serial rapist, I'm the child
of this or that, and you know, I'm able to
(26:28):
love on them and give them some support and navigate.
The other type of people who contact me are people
who say I encountered your father and stepmother and they
almost killed me, okay, and these people will tell me
the story and it matches up.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
The timelines the thing.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
Yeah, yeah, it matches the timeline. And so there are
so many people that they tell me they almost killed
and then you know, one of the contacts I've gotten
over the years is a ton of people from Portland
saying I was friends with Andrea Maren. I knew your
father while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I didn't know that, Jen, I.
Speaker 6 (27:10):
Didn't know you worked at the Benson.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah, I moved here.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
I moved here from HONOLULUAI, and I worked.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Granted, this is I mean, I'm only this is after yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
I know, but you worked at the same hotel. I
mean this is I need the listeners to know this.
Like every time that Rashia and I talk, we have
some intersection and and I have a mic drop at
the end of this episode that okay, like I think
both Russia and Vett are going to like literally like
(27:46):
just be speechless.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Oh my godh my god.
Speaker 6 (27:49):
So while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland.
So so initially my father and stepmother were in they
emigrated to Israel. My father had gotten birth right citizenship.
That's where an individual who is separtic or as Kanasi Jewish,
you know whatever, can acquire citizenship in Israel. So they
(28:10):
were in Israel and then they traveled all over Europe
and there are multiple cold cases in Europe and specifically
in Britain that interpool was suspected of committeing. And I've
offered my DNA to the European entities who want to
close those cases.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (28:29):
So they are then in the United States and primarily
they're growing marijuana on a farm in Humboldt, and then
they're in San Francisco, Portland, Eugene, and they would harvest
and get a cut of the weed at the farm,
and then they were kind of on this circuit between
nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty three where they were selling.
(28:50):
They were primarily spending most of their time in San Francisco, Eugene,
between northern California and Oregon, Eugene, Portland.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
On the West coast.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
Yeah, over the years, a lot of people have contacted
me and they've said, we were acquainted with Michael Baron,
Susan Carson, who were you know, selling weed and at
Portland State University and there was a beautiful young woman
who was murdered and they were friends with her. Her
name was Andrew Maren. Her father was doctor Oscar Maren,
(29:21):
world renowned neuroscience scientists and neurosurgeon who was at a
Good Samaritan in Portland and with University of Oregon. She
was murdered in the same way as my father's known victim,
Karen Barnes in San Francisco. And many people believe that
my father and stepmother murdered her, and they're just everyone
(29:46):
knows it. Everyone believes it, and there's just not physical evidence.
So what I did yesterday is I tapped into my
love for gen Z. Like my nieces and nephews are
just so fun and so I love gen Z, right, Yeah,
I just love it. I love my students of that age.
I just have no one to love for the generation.
(30:07):
So I decided what I was going to do is
just tap into that. I did lay a stone the
sixteen hundred block of Southwest Park Avenue yesterday where Andrew
Marrin was murdered. I laid a stone asking for any tips.
And so what I'm asking is that the Portland State
University students just kick in, and I need you to
(30:28):
go talk to elders. So if you know an elder
who is around forty years ago, will you know individuals
age sixty probably eighty. If you know an elder, you
know a shop owner in the area or faculty, just
go talk to them, see if you can get anything
that we can connect the dots to. And then you
can hit me up and via social media at doctor
(30:48):
Jen Carson. So it's it's it's my hope that we
can do that. And then if you're one of those
people where your mom or dad or aunt and uncle
had talked about encountering these people, you can hit me
up there. I can help you navigate to get that
to the cold case detective so we can maybe bring
some peace here.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
You're incredible, gen Oh my.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
God, So are you ready for the mic drop? Let's
go ahead and do it.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Let's just get into it. Yeah, because you've got me
in mind spinning.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
Your great grandmother was Dorothy Grace Anthony.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Right, Yes, that's Tomorrow's mother.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
So she's she's my grandmother's cousin, so we're.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
So we are related.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
That's what I said earlier.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
I have chicken skin all over my body, gen I
do too.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
We're eighth cousins.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
And up is that okay? Is that from your mom's
side to your dad's side?
Speaker 6 (31:41):
Do you know it's my mother's side.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Well, thank goodness, your non.
Speaker 6 (31:46):
Violent grandmother, my mom, non violent grandmother.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
And we just tripped and fell into somebody who was
bad spit. Yeah. Our shared ancestors were really super cool people.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
We're o'hannah, we're family.
Speaker 6 (32:03):
H Hannah. So our shared ancestors, John Engles and Elizabeth
Barrett were really cool people. And oh my god, please
you to be excited that we're related to his mom.
And I didn't get a chance to tell him.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Well, no, that's not his mom. Dorothy Anthony's is. So
his mom is Dorothy, it's Derrero, it's Derrero. Yeah, you're
really related. Yeah, because George was married to Dorothy's. I know.
Speaker 6 (32:38):
It's very yeah, no I remember that now.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, it's like I can't remember Derrero's but Dorothy.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But Dorothy, you know, lived like two blocks away from
here on Filmore in San Francisco.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
Wow, so your great grandmother Dorothy Grace Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, what wow, Oh my gosh. Okay, now now that
you've blown our mind. I just want to say this,
you know, really quickly before we I know, you know,
you have stuff to do and time is valuable, but
it's so important for you to share with listeners. You know,
people who are going through similar circumstances, you know, such
(33:17):
as yourself, Can you give them some advice of you know,
how to get through whatever they're going through, you.
Speaker 6 (33:26):
Know, because my life and your life, because my family
and your family sounds so freaking melodramatic, right right, right.
People think there's no relation, but there's a commonality suffering
as part of life. Right. We do not go through
this life unscathed. And trauma is trauma, loss is loss,
(33:47):
pain is pain. So we all, we all meet on
this field of suffering in this lifetime. And so I
think that something uniquely that we have is that we
have inherited this shame. Right, But that's not unique either
in the sense that you know, I've met people in
(34:09):
this life who have, you know, incest and violence in
their background. And you know, I had a dear friend
from a false who is from a small town and
her dad was the town drunk. You know, he was
constantly passing out. She's fourteen she's going to pick him
up at the bar.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Sense of shame with that.
Speaker 6 (34:28):
Yeah, I've met individuals who were conceived non consensually and
they were a product of rape and what have you.
And so we meet at these common spaces of shame
and stigma and pain and loss and suffering. And this
is what I know. I know that help works and
(34:51):
hope can be restored.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
You are hope, Jen, You you are the epitome of
hope and light. And I think that's that's why I know,
that's why I have gravitated to you, any that gravitated to.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
You and you your magic.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Thank you well cousin, doctor Jen Carson, Mahalanuiloa for joining us.
Speaker 6 (35:14):
Thank you, and you know everyone, if anyone is experiencing
suicidal thoughts or they have a level and that's experiencing
suicidal thoughts, please call nine eight eight the National Suicide
and Mental Health Crisis Lifeline. It's twenty four hours a day,
text or call. If you are in need of resources
for counseling in your area, called two one one to
(35:34):
get a referral. And if you would like to connect
with me, please follow me at doctor Jen Carson two
ends and i'd love to connect with you, and thank
you rash Maniuvett for you know, being just love and
light and also being leaders in the forefront of ethical
true crime that is based in being trauma informed and
(35:57):
victim centered, and so I appreciate you both so much.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
This week we are dedicating our emua to doctor Jen
Carson's mother and stepfather, Lynn and Mike Gonzales. From the
moment danger was imminent, Lynn protected her child at all costs,
and when Mike, her stepfather, came into their lives, he
showered them with unconditional love and gave them the necessary
(36:30):
tools to heal.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
And this simoa also goes out to those of you
who have had to overcome unthinkable trauma just like doctor
Jen Carson, and you have not only overcome, but you
have transcended over that evil.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
She took that pain and suffering and turned it into
her life's mission to help others heal and to provide hope.
Doctor Carson now runs nine to five to one six
eight six Help the Inland Southern California Crisis Helpline, a
suicide hotline based in Riverside, California.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
If you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts,
or are in a crisis, please call nine eight eight,
the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
You are not alone.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
Onward and Upward ema e moua.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Well, that's our show for today.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion
and if there's a case you'd like for us to cover.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Find us on social media or email us at facingebl,
pod at tenderfoot dot tv.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
And one small request if you haven't already, please find
us on iTunes and give us a good rating and
a good review. If you like what we do, your
support is always cherished.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Until next time.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Aloha.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(38:32):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmage.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(38:57):
favorite shows.
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