November 3, 2022 • 39 mins
Kitty Genovese was killed in 1964 outside her apartment building. According to the headlines of the time, dozens of people heard her screams but did nothing. This week, Rasha And Yvette talk about Kitty's case and the validity of the so-called "bystander effect."
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
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Speaker 2 (00:27):
Aloha everyone, Welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV
and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We are your hosts. I'm Roscha Piccuerero and I'm Evet
Genteel and always we are here with our amazing producer,
mister Trevor Young.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So today we're talking about a case that involves an
openly gay woman and she was out in the nineteen sixties,
which was not the norm back then. This is pre Stonewall,
and she, you know, unfortunately was murdered. And it just
(01:05):
makes me feel being an out and proud lesbian in
twenty twenty two, how fortunate.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
How blessed, how privileged I am.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I mean, this past weekend, I was on top of
the Alaska Airlines Pride float, you know, dancing, and I
was on television and celebrating being an out and proud lesbian,
and Kitty didn't get to do that, and it just
it breaks my heart that she didn't live long enough
(01:35):
even to see stone Wall, and I think it could
have been prevented. It was just, it was really, it
was really humbling for me to be celebrating in Honoluluho
VII and knowing there's so many people like Kitty who
weren't able to right.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So many people who didn't get to live out loud,
you know, in the way that they would have liked.
And with that being said, Trevor, will you please to
us through titday's case.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Kitty Genevieves was almost home when she heard a man's
footsteps behind her. She ran, but the man caught up
to her and stabbed her twice in the back. She screamed,
oh God, I've been stabbed.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Have mark surrounded near the chalk lined the outline and
the yellow tape around the area.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
The idea that New Yorkers watched and did nothing, didn't
lift a finger to help this poor dying girl stuck
in the public mind.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
But it was a lot more complicated than that. Kitty
Genovese was a twenty eight year old woman who was
killed on the streets of Queens, New York in nineteen
sixty four. Late the night of March thirteenth, Kitty was
walking back to her apartment when a man stabbed her repeatedly.
He initially fled when a witness called out, but returned
(02:52):
ten minutes later to finish the job. A New York
Times story made Kitty Jenevez's story infamous with the headline
quote thirty eight who saw murder, didn't call the police
end quote. This story that neighbors witnessed the murder of
a young woman but did nothing to help was so
enduring that people began calling callous in action in the
(03:14):
face of a stranger's peril quote Geneve syndrome or the
bystander effect. But as it turns out, the real story
of the life and death of Kitty Genove's is a
lot more complicated. And so who was Kitty Jeneved's, how
did her murder actually go down? And what does the
story tell us about the so called bystander effect.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So I'd say probably about a year ago or so,
I was with my dear friend, mister David Hand in
New York City, and I was talking to him about
what Yvette and I were doing, and that was before
we knew you were going to be with us, Trevor,
and I asked if David could help, if he could
(04:01):
tell me any stories in the LGBTQ plus community that
he thought needed to be told, and Kitty Genovas was
the one he told me I had to look into.
And the more that Yvet and I have dove into it,
the more my heart breaks when any life is taken,
(04:25):
you know, But the way that she was treated, and
even her partner was treated and all the things, it's
just it's so much, right.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Yeah, and I had not heard about this story until
you know, you mentioned it, and again I took a
deep dive, and you know, I love my documentaries, so
I watched The Witness and we'll get into that later on.
But yeah, this is another yet sad story.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Have you ever heard about Kitty, Trevor, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It's interesting. The way that I learned about Kitty is
actually the way that I think probably a lot of
people inadvertently learned about Kitty, which was in a psychology
class maybe in high school or college. So anybody who
takes psych one oh one may actually read about her
murder because of this so called bystander effect. Again, this
(05:18):
is the idea of a group of people doing nothing
to really help a stranger when there's a distressful situation
because they assume that everybody else is going to help
out right, like, oh, I'm not going to do anything
because so and so will jump in. But then nobody
jumps in because again they assume somebody else will do it,
and as a result, the situation doesn't get solved. So
(05:39):
this is actually an interesting case for human psychology that
people have looked at over the years. So I actually
did read about this case in college and when we
started looking into it and researching, and I was like, oh, yeah,
I remember that. So it's an interesting idea. However, there's
this kind of widespread no as a result of it
(06:01):
being included in psychology classes that when Kitty was murdered,
she was killed out on the street and nobody did
anything to help that nobody chimed into stop. And that's
actually not entirely true, which is something we'll get into.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
So let's get down to who Kitty Genovese really was
and what really happened to her.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Okay, so Kitty genoves like we said at the top,
of the episode was an out lesbian. And I say
that with a grain of salt, right, because it's not
like you could be completely out in the nineteen sixties,
I imagine, you know, just because doing so would have absolutely,
(06:44):
you know, jeopardized maybe her job, her living situation. I
mean you could be fired. I mean, you could be
fired for being gay not that long ago. I mean,
let's be real, so you know, most likely you were
going to be ostracized just for being yourself. It was
a very very different time back then, right.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
It's very true. You know, there are those people who
were living out loud, but you still were hiding it
most of the time.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right, you talk about your roommate quote unquote or sign
of the times, I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And just a quick disclaimer before we get any further
into the episode. You know, we have been mentioning the
fact that Kitty was a gay woman, closeted or otherwise. However,
there's no necessarily clear connection between her murder and her
sexual orientation, So I just want to be careful that
we're not drying a line between the fact that she
(07:38):
was murdered because she is gay. I think that happens
to be more a matter of circumstance that has, you know,
maybe no connection, right. Yeah, So just just kind of
pointing out who she was as a person is the
value in talking about her being gay. Right, So let's
talk a little bit more about Kitty. She was born
(07:59):
in Brooklyn, New York, the eldest of five kids in
a Catholic family in the Park Slope neighborhood. She attended
an all girls school, where she was described as quote
mature with a good disposition, whatever that means. And in
nineteen fifty four, her mother moved the family to Connecticut,
everyone except for Kitty, actually, and the reason that Kitty
(08:20):
did not move is because she had actually witnessed a
murder in the streets of New York and was incredibly
concerned for her family safety.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I mean, that's such an irony, right, It's just so crazy,
because you know, her mother moved because of what she saw.
And now the story that we're about to tell, and
as we know, Kitty stayed behind.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, right, Like the idea there was to make the
family more safe, but she ended up staying behind in
a situation that was less safe.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Well, and the other thing is too, she was nineteen
at the time that her family moved back to Connecticut.
So she didn't really want to leave. I wouldn't want
to leave either. It's you know, New York was her home.
She didn't want to go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
She's an adult.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, you're nineteen, right, You have so many friends, you
have so many relationships that you've established. It's hard to
just pack up and leave.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah. So Kitty's living in Queens, New York. She's working
double shifts at a bar called EV's Eleventh Hour. She's
actually managing it at the point of her murder, no
longer just a bartender, and she's saving up money because
she wants to eventually open up her own Italian restaurant.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Reportedly, So, I mean, as you can tell, like, she's
a go getter. And she's also living with a girlfriend
at this point. Yes, I say had a girlfriend, but
you know that was a risk at the time. But obviously,
you know, people just assumed that they were roommates, right.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Right, quote unquote roommates. Yeah, yeah, that was the thing
you said back then. Yeah, but her roommate aka girlfriend,
her name was Mary Ann Zelonko, and the two of
them shared an apartment in the neighborhood of Q Gardens
in Queens, New York. And again it's the early nineteen sixties,
(10:09):
so they do end up renting the apartment under the
guise of being just platonic roommates.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, so I wanted to read something really quick from
apiece the Chicago Tribune did in twenty seventeen where they
interviewed Marianne Zelanko, and I think it gives us a
small interesting peak into the kind of relationship they had.
Quote now looking back at two young lovers through senior
citizen eyes, Zelanko measures her adoration for Genevese in numerous ways.
(10:41):
Love was their regular Monday night sojourns to Greets, a
club where they would drink beer and listen to folk music.
It was Wednesday evening meals at Hofbrow, the German restaurant
down the block. It was the late night chats and
the intimate kisses and the idea that here is a
person you can spend your life with. End quote.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It makes my gayheart so happy, like yeah, you know,
just like all the way in twenty seventeen, you know,
after she was murdered in the nineteen sixties, like there's
still you know that love there it's just it's beautiful.
Just to hear little simple moments like that is just
really really sweet. And I love that Kitty had that
(11:20):
with mary Anne.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Right, it was a genuine love story.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, So moving on with the story here. On March
thirteenth of nineteen sixty four, Kitty is bartending and her
shift ends. She got into her red Fiat to drive
home to the apartment where her girlfriend was sleeping. And
that is the last time that anyone ever saw Kitty
Genoves alive. And we'll discuss what happened right after we
(11:47):
take a quick ad break.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
At around two thirty am on March thirteenth of nineteen
sixty four, Kitty Genoves her bartending shift and headed home
to the apartment that she shared with her girlfriend, Mary Anne.
At a stoplight on Hoover Avenue, she was spotted by
a man named Winston Moseley. He was sitting in his
parked Chevy corvat. Moseley then began following Kitty home. So
(12:18):
Kitty parked her car in the Kew Gardens Long Island
Railroad station parking lot. And this wasn't very far from
her apartment, right, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, it's super close. So only about one hundred feet
from the entrance to her apartment building and just next
door to another building across the street that will come
into play here in a minute. So you can actually
find good maps of all this online. People have mapped
it out so you can get a better understanding of
how this went down. But really this was her block, right,
(12:46):
she parks here all the time.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
In fact, I was texting with my friend David, who
is the one that told us about this case, this morning,
and he sent me a picture of the map where
Kitty lived and where she was killed and where he
currently lives, and it's literally a block apart, like he
drew it for me, and I'm like, oh my god,
I'm you know, her history is still very rich there,
(13:11):
so needless to say with all of that, you know,
she didn't have very far to go, Like she was
literally one hundred feet to safety.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
She was on her block.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
She was on her block, She was at home. But
when she got out of her car, she presumably noticed
Moseley for the first time, so he had gotten out
of his car at this point and was following her
close behind, carrying a hunting knife.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I can't even imagine that like the fear that she had,
or that anybody would have. That's anybody's worst nightmare, that
somebody is following you and they have a knife coming
after you. That's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, so terrifying. And so she immediately starts running, but
Moseley quickly catches up, and it's at this time that
he stabs her twice in the back. She of course
screams and reports very on what she said exactly, but
it's often been reported she was streaming something like quote,
(14:08):
oh my god, he stabbed me. Help me end quote.
So she was heard by bystanders.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah, and that's where a lot of I think misconceptions
come from in this case. So the first person we
know about who actually heard her was a neighbor named
Robert Moser. So Mosher apparently sense that something was going on,
some sort of kerfuffle or fight outside. He looked out
of his window from the seventh floor, but according to him,
he couldn't see anything that was happening. It was a
(14:36):
very dark night by all reports, and he did, according
to him, yell out of his window the words quote,
leave that girl alone. So I guess he could deduce
that there was a girl involved. In some sort of
attack outside, and I guess maybe yelling was going to
scare this gentleman.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Away, right right, That is exactly what happened. But there
were also other neighbors that heard this same commotion as well.
But you know, again, they're right next to a bar
and they're used to, you know, when the bar shuts
down that kind of people are drunk and there's some
kind of commotion going on. Some of these people just
(15:14):
assumed it was that.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, And later when Sint Moseley testified that Robert Moser's
yelling actually did scare him away, at least temporarily, Moseley
ran back to his car and drove off. So, of course,
Kitty was seriously injured by her two stab wounds, and
she was able to crawl towards the back of the
(15:35):
apartment building. And you know this this is significant because
it was a place where you know, she couldn't be
seen by any witnesses. So where she crawled the back
of the building, yeah, yeah, nobody could see her.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
It was essentially an alleyway.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Right right. They call it like a what is it
called like a vestibule or something, Yeah, like a back alley.
But you know, The thing about it is like when
we were just talking earlier, and that scream when she
got stabbed, like that is a blood curdling, curdling scream,
you know. So for you know, the neighbors that said
(16:11):
it was, you know, just some type of commotion. I
think that scream.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Alone should have set off all the bells and whistles.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Should have like made everybody rush, you know, and called
the police.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
So Mosley ends up coming back, and by this time
she's gotten into an entrance around the back of the building,
but of course she's severely injured from the stab wounds,
and she did get to a door, but it was locked,
so she could not get inside to safety. And it
was at this point that Mosley stabbed her several more times.
(16:46):
He raped her, and then he took all of the
money in her wallet.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
What's a I guess peculiar to me about this is
that he seemed to be on the prowl for Kitty
in particular. I don't know if that's true, but the
way that the story has been told is that he
was sitting in his car and then the second that
she got out and started walking to her apartment, you know,
just a block away he got out and started you know,
(17:13):
following her and tracking her down. So I'm curious if
he knew kitty. Yeah, what was his intended goal? Initially
it was this something like a robbery got wrong. Was
he looking for any woman that night? Yeah, it's all
very mysterious to me.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
It's so true, Trevor. I put my hat on, you know,
like my crime hat on, trying to figure that out
as well, because you think about when the first act
happened and the guy yelled at him, right, you would
think that if it was just some random person like
they would just they would run off and they wouldn't
come back, but to wait ten more minutes and then
(17:48):
come back right and viciously do this to her. Like again,
those questions go through your head. Did he know her?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Like?
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Was it a hit or something? You know, like your
mind just starts to wonder of what was the motive
behind it?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Are Yeah, Yeah, the coming back to finish the job
angle is very unusual. It's not often that you hear
see people do that, right, So he was dedicated enough
that you know, he was willing to risk being you know,
attacked or intervened or having the cops called on him
to come finish this job. Yeah, so you know, after
(18:26):
he does this, he leaves, and this is the point
at which her neighbors finally come to her. Aid. So,
there was a woman named Sophie Ferrar who lived across
the hall from Kitty and Mary Anne, and apparently at
three am she got a frantic phone call from a
neighbor in another building who knew that Kitty was in
(18:47):
some kind of distress. I don't know how they knew this,
but they did so. Anyways, Sophie Farrar leaps up, races downstairs,
and she goes through this alleyway to reach the back entrance,
just as mosely as lee the scene.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
This is definitely a different story than the popular myth
right that no one helped Kitty. That this article right
that came out right this moment right here completely changes
everything because she wasn't alone and someone did come to
help her.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, I guess the sad reality is that it wasn't
soon enough, right, that somebody probably should have come and
helped sooner, as you guys were saying, as that first
blood curdling scream came out, that should have been you know,
right when somebody jumped on this had somebody gotten there
sooner before you know, Mosley made the decision that it
was safe enough to come back ten minutes later and
(19:41):
finish the job. Yeah, you know, maybe this wouldn't have happened.
Maybe after those first two stab wounds, she would have
been fine after some initial medical attention, right. So yeah,
that's I think probably the real tragedy here. But according
to Fararar here, they were awoken earlier by kitty screams.
But according to them, it was three in the morning.
(20:02):
Many had been asleep, of course, and they were super disoriented.
It was very dark, like I said earlier, so the
Ferrara said they looked out the window, but they didn't
see anything, so they went back to sleep, and it
wasn't until they got this phone call from a neighbor
a few minutes later that they finally decided to take action.
So I think you can't look at this case in
a vacuum and just say that people knew this was
(20:26):
happening and didn't do anything. You have to take into
account the fact that it was three in the morning
and most people were sleeping through this, the fact that
it was like a bar area in New York City
in the nineteen sixties. I'm sure you heard stuff like
this often. There are other factors to consider as to
why people didn't respond to this. You know, I'm not
saying it's okay, and I do say, of course, that
(20:48):
had people actually responded sooner, again, this might not have happened.
But you know, the reality is that who knows, we
might have done the same thing if this was happening
at three am outside our house, right.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, no, it is definitely something to consider. So Sophie
Ferrar ended up getting to the scene having run through
those back alleyways, but was This is the part that's
super super sad to me. She was further delayed in
actually getting to Kitty because Kitty's body was blocking the door.
(21:18):
She was slumped up against the door on the inside,
so she couldn't open it because her body was lying there.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You know.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
When she finally got the door open, she saw Kitty,
you know, sitting there and in all of the blood,
and she immediately yelled, you know, for another neighbor to
call the police. And that's when she just cradled her
and she, I mean as best as she could. She
tried to comfort her, you know, in the last minutes
(21:51):
of her life.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, it's so sad.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
You know, an ambulance ended up arriving, but you know,
she ended up dying on the way to the hospital,
you know. And that's where the story of Kitty Genove's
life ends, and sadly, that's when the myth is born, right.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, So there's some aftermath here to talk about, and
we will do that after we take another quick break.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Around four a m. The morning of March sixteenth, nineteen
sixty four, mary Anne Zelonko is awoken from her sleep
by two police officers knocking on her door. She you know,
actually had heard none of the commotion outside the apartment building,
but years later she told reporters she was in complete
(22:42):
and utter shock when that not came and she had
to go and identify her girlfriend's body.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
So this part of the story is what breaks my
heart even more, right, And mary Anne was offered little
to no comfort by the officers and they ended up
taking her to the police station and Marianne was questioned
for six hours. According to one report quote, she was
(23:13):
grilled by at least three different detectives during that time,
and the questioning took an inappropriate turn, focusing on their
sex life.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, I guess I wish this was more surprising, but
I think this kind of approach to a case like
this was probably pretty common at the time unfortunately. And
I know the questioning of the neighbors and the days
that followed also were centered on the fact that this
was a lesbian couple and that that was somehow relevant
to the fact that she was murdered, which I think, again,
(23:45):
as we said at the beginning of the episode, has
no relevance. Yeah, so it's the nineteen sixties, that right,
So it's probably the first thing they're thinking about, yep, Like.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Are they questioning her because they think she had something
to do with it, or that Kitty was murdered for
being a lesbian?
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Like I think it's a little bit of both if
you think about it, you know, because they always suspect
you know, whoever's close right to the victim at first,
so I'm sure that was in the back of their minds.
And then on top of them probably not approving, you know,
of her lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
M Yeah, I mean, if nothing else, it reveals that
the police were, you know, more concerned with her fringe
lifestyle than they were with solving her murder perhaps, so
that's maybe where her sexuality plays a contextual purpose in
this case, right. So Unfortunately it didn't really end there.
(24:42):
Mary Anne went to Kitty's funeral only to have her family,
that is, Kitty's family, just refused to acknowledge her Mary Anne.
And then a few days later, Winston Moseley was arrested
as he tried to steal a television set from a
nearby neighborhood. After this arrest, he apparently confessed to Kitty's murder,
which is surprising. Yeah, so a little bit about Winston Mosley.
(25:06):
He was a twenty nine year old man who lived
in Ozone Park, which is basically the same neighborhood where
he was arrested. He was married with three children, and
he worked as a tab operator, which means that he
would punch tabs in cards which are used in computers
at the time, and he actually didn't have a criminal
record before this point. Still, he told police that he
(25:27):
had committed thirty to forty robberies along with the murders
he had confessed to already, so in addition to Kitty's murder,
he had also killed a woman named Annie May Johnson
a few weeks before by shooting her and setting her
on fire, like.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
This is just you know, beyond I mean, we go
back to psychopath, right, and I just point out that
Annie May Johnson was black. You know, so Kitty was
Italian American. Annie May Johnson was African American. He also
had an IQ of one thirty five, and he was
(26:02):
a very like small frame.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
Man.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I go back to thinking about George Odell and just
doctor Jekyll, mister Hyde.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
It's interesting that he supposedly has gotten away with thirty
to forty crimes and or murders without ever being discovered
up until this point, right, Like, to me, that suggests
somebody who is very probably cunning, knows what they're doing,
knows how to calculate tricks, very calculated exactly. So it
(26:33):
could be this was like a low key serial killer
that was hiding in the shadows this whole time. And
for sure of that, you know, as you were alluding to,
it could be he had some sort of target on
marginalized people. I don't know that for sure. I'm just speculating,
but you know, based on the track record that you
were laying out, it's very possible and that very much
falls in line with them of a lot of serial
(26:54):
killers at the time, right, So I don't know, maybe
there's something more to look at there in the future.
Moving forward with his track record, he also confessed to
the murder of a fifteen year old named Barbara Kralik,
whose murder he was not charged with, incidentally, because apparently
somebody else had already confessed to that crime. Right.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
And this is just this is so odd to me
because he's just confessing to all of these crimes. But
like you just said, right, he's never been convicted. It's
so bizarre on so many levels.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
He wants the credit.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Maybe again, that's another serial killer trait, right. I don't
know if you guys have ever read the writings of
John Douglas, the famous FBI profialer, but he finds that
that is something that is very common in serial killers
of the sixties and seventies. So anyhow, on June eighth,
Mosley's trial begins and he played it not guilty by
(27:50):
a reason of insanity. Not the first time we've seen this, right,
And then after seven hours of deliberation, the jury returned,
of course, with a pretty straightforward guilty verdict.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Needless to say, it is good that he is convicted,
and a few days later, Mosely is sentenced to death.
Mosley doesn't even react to this, but the audience in
the courtroom collapse in cheers. The judge ends up ordering
them to remain calm, but he also says, and this
(28:21):
is a quote from the judge, although I do not
believe in capital punishment. When I see a monster like this,
I wouldn't hesitate to pull the switch myself.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
So he's sentenced and sent to prism. But then three
years later, in nineteen sixty seven, a court ruled that
Moseley should have had the chance to argue that he
was medically insane, and his sentence was then reduced to
life in prison. So then things take another bad turn.
As he was being escorted back to prison from a
(28:53):
hospital in Buffalo where he was being treated for a
self inflicted injury, he actually escaped, so he beat a
corrections officer, stole their weapon, and was able to flee.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
And do so much more damage.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So he ends up going into a vacant house owned
by an older woman. Three days later, her son Matthew
and his wife visit the house and Mosley takes them hostage.
He binds them, and he gags them, and he rapes
Matthew's wife. He stayed for another hour before fleeing again
to another home, where he held a mother and daughter
hostage for a couple hours before he was finally arrested again. Sheez.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I mean, we can obviously say he is not a
sympathetic person. It just seems like nothing phases this guy,
you know what I mean, He's just like cold. I
read something recently and something that Winston Moseley said in
(29:52):
one of the parorole hearings, and this was years later.
This is a quote he says, for a victim outside
a one time or a one hour or a one
minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever.
Like it's forever for the victims and their families.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, it's just a type of delusional, psychopathic thinking, right.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I think he probably has some chemical and I don't
know much about his upbringing, but you know, some sort
of chemical imbalance that leads his thinking to again lean
towards psychopathy. I think I think it's more of that coldness,
you know. I think this person has you know, very
violent leanings and clearly lacks any empathy whatsoever towards other humans.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, like you escape prison and you'd think you'd like
flee to Mexico and like ghost like live on a
beach the rest of your life or something. But he
breaks out and he hurts multiple people.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
He was denied parole and and he died in prison
at you know, the age of eighty one.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
So meanwhile, what does live on is this myth about
the murder of Kitty Genovese. What was genuinely, you know,
so sad at the time is that people came, but
they came too late, but they did come.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Her neighbors did.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Try to help her, as we've gone over during this episode.
So why did we all learn this myth that thirty
eight people looked on but didn't help Kitty.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Well, I think, like most things, it's all about the
way the message is portrayed by the media right to
people in the republic. So most of this came from
a New York Times story published two weeks after the murder,
and the literal headline was quote thirty eight who saw murder,
didn't call police end quote. And of course this article
(31:56):
was riddled with inaccuracies. For example, the piece claimed quote
for more than half an hour, thirty eight respectable law
abiding citizens and queens watched a killer stock and stab
a woman in three separate attacks in Q gardens. Not
one person telephoned the police during the assault. One witness
called after the woman was dead. So, as we've said
(32:17):
this whole episode, very few of those things are true.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Right, Yes, the thing that really sticks with me about
this case is when that article was written in the
New York Times about the thirty eight bystanders that consciously
affected the masses of people.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Yes, there are people who don't want to get involved,
but most importantly people do want to get involved. People
do want to help their neighbors, and that that is
the disservice that that particular article led for the masses.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, I will say as a trained journalist, obviously getting
things accurate is in credit important to me, and you know,
like any journalist, it would bug me when I discover
in accuracies in well known publications. You know. That said,
there is a bit of a maybe unintended silver lining
that was pretty common with media in the mid century
(33:16):
American publications, which is that they would over dramatize certain
issues for the sake of scaring people into being better.
So although this was inaccurate, it did have the effect
of exposing this kind of issue to people. Even if
the issue is not this black and white, it can
certainly be an issue, right that a group of bystanders
(33:39):
don't do anything because they assume everybody else is going
to do something. Like again, that's in psychology books. That
is a thing, right, So now everybody knows about that
as a thing, and now more people are cautious about that.
You know, even if their understanding of the issue is flawed, right,
at least they're to some degree conscious of it. And
(34:00):
you know, maybe next time that that happens in their neighborhood,
now that they've read this New York Times article, they
would know to do something and they wouldn't want to
be like the people they read about in that news article.
So I don't know, like it's kind of a double
edged sword, right, it serves some purpose and then you know,
kind of flounders on the other side of the coin.
(34:20):
So just something to consider, right, yep.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
One huge positive thing that came out of this crime.
And this is exactly why when I was speaking to David,
my beautiful friend, I knew we had to do this
story because Kitty Genovese was murdered.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
That actually led to the creation.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Of what we all now know today as nine to
one one that didn't exist back then, you know, like
the New York Times article stated how the thirty eight
people you know didn't come to her aid, but two
people did call.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
The police, you know.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
And maybe if we would have had nine one one
back then, maybe Kitty would have made it.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
Maybe she would have lived.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Strange to imagine a world without nine one one.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
But yeah, one person who remembered Kitty Genovas before she
was a victim was really the love of her life
at the time, her girlfriend, mary Anne Zelanko. In two
thousand and four, Mary Anne spoke to the like I
said the Chicago Tribune, and I'm going to quote that
(35:30):
piece here in trying to do it without tears.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
To Zelonko, Jeno Vase is alive. She is still.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Standing there in the Manhattan bar where her two first
met on an early spring day in nineteen sixty three,
running a hand through her short brown hair while taking
a drag from the end of a camel cigarette. Jenovas
was a talkative woman with big brown eyes and infectious
giggle and a tiny gap but the tip of her
(36:01):
two front teeth, and the twenty five year old Celanco
was smitten.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
And this brings us to our Emua always our message
of hope and healing. And I really think about my
mom right now, because my mom, I should say. Our
mom would always say to look for the helpers. So
(36:32):
our Emua goes out to the good neighbors among us.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
We see you, yes we do.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
And Sophie Ferrar was Kitty Jenno Vese's neighbor. Sophie risked
her own life by rushing in to save Kitty's life,
and she cradled the dying woman's head in her lap,
trying to comfort her in what would be her final
moments on this earth.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
We can make the largest difference in someone's life alone,
life saving difference simply by noticing a neighbor helping them
taking action. That action may be simple, It might just
be a conversation, just asking someone how are you, how
is your day? But such kindness, whether it be large
(37:20):
or small, it makes a big difference.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
And if you are someone who has showed up for
a neighbor or been kind of a stranger, we see you.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
And we thank you onward and upward emua Ema. Well,
that is our show for today. We'd love to hear
what you thought about today's discussion and if there is
a case that you would like us to cover, find
(37:51):
us on social media or Facing Evil Pod or email
us at Facing Evil Pod at Tenderfoot dot tv.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And one request, if you haven't already, please find us
on iTunes and give us a review and good rating.
If you like what we do, your support is always cherished.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Until next time, Aloha.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero in a Vetchentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
Albright and Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(38:45):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at Facing Evil Pod at
Tenderfoot for more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. Visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(39:09):
your favorite shows.
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Aloha everyone, Welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV
and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We are your hosts. I'm Roscha Piccuerero and I'm Evet
Genteel and always we are here with our amazing producer,
mister Trevor Young.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So today we're talking about a case that involves an
openly gay woman and she was out in the nineteen sixties,
which was not the norm back then. This is pre Stonewall,
and she, you know, unfortunately was murdered. And it just
(01:05):
makes me feel being an out and proud lesbian in
twenty twenty two, how fortunate.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
How blessed, how privileged I am.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I mean, this past weekend, I was on top of
the Alaska Airlines Pride float, you know, dancing, and I
was on television and celebrating being an out and proud lesbian,
and Kitty didn't get to do that, and it just
it breaks my heart that she didn't live long enough
(01:35):
even to see stone Wall, and I think it could
have been prevented. It was just, it was really, it
was really humbling for me to be celebrating in Honoluluho
VII and knowing there's so many people like Kitty who
weren't able to right.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So many people who didn't get to live out loud,
you know, in the way that they would have liked.
And with that being said, Trevor, will you please to
us through titday's case.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Kitty Genevieves was almost home when she heard a man's
footsteps behind her. She ran, but the man caught up
to her and stabbed her twice in the back. She screamed,
oh God, I've been stabbed.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Have mark surrounded near the chalk lined the outline and
the yellow tape around the area.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
The idea that New Yorkers watched and did nothing, didn't
lift a finger to help this poor dying girl stuck
in the public mind.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
But it was a lot more complicated than that. Kitty
Genovese was a twenty eight year old woman who was
killed on the streets of Queens, New York in nineteen
sixty four. Late the night of March thirteenth, Kitty was
walking back to her apartment when a man stabbed her repeatedly.
He initially fled when a witness called out, but returned
(02:52):
ten minutes later to finish the job. A New York
Times story made Kitty Jenevez's story infamous with the headline
quote thirty eight who saw murder, didn't call the police
end quote. This story that neighbors witnessed the murder of
a young woman but did nothing to help was so
enduring that people began calling callous in action in the
(03:14):
face of a stranger's peril quote Geneve syndrome or the
bystander effect. But as it turns out, the real story
of the life and death of Kitty Genove's is a
lot more complicated. And so who was Kitty Jeneved's, how
did her murder actually go down? And what does the
story tell us about the so called bystander effect.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So I'd say probably about a year ago or so,
I was with my dear friend, mister David Hand in
New York City, and I was talking to him about
what Yvette and I were doing, and that was before
we knew you were going to be with us, Trevor,
and I asked if David could help, if he could
(04:01):
tell me any stories in the LGBTQ plus community that
he thought needed to be told, and Kitty Genovas was
the one he told me I had to look into.
And the more that Yvet and I have dove into it,
the more my heart breaks when any life is taken,
(04:25):
you know, But the way that she was treated, and
even her partner was treated and all the things, it's
just it's so much, right.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Yeah, and I had not heard about this story until
you know, you mentioned it, and again I took a
deep dive, and you know, I love my documentaries, so
I watched The Witness and we'll get into that later on.
But yeah, this is another yet sad story.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Have you ever heard about Kitty, Trevor, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It's interesting. The way that I learned about Kitty is
actually the way that I think probably a lot of
people inadvertently learned about Kitty, which was in a psychology
class maybe in high school or college. So anybody who
takes psych one oh one may actually read about her
murder because of this so called bystander effect. Again, this
(05:18):
is the idea of a group of people doing nothing
to really help a stranger when there's a distressful situation
because they assume that everybody else is going to help
out right, like, oh, I'm not going to do anything
because so and so will jump in. But then nobody
jumps in because again they assume somebody else will do it,
and as a result, the situation doesn't get solved. So
(05:39):
this is actually an interesting case for human psychology that
people have looked at over the years. So I actually
did read about this case in college and when we
started looking into it and researching, and I was like, oh, yeah,
I remember that. So it's an interesting idea. However, there's
this kind of widespread no as a result of it
(06:01):
being included in psychology classes that when Kitty was murdered,
she was killed out on the street and nobody did
anything to help that nobody chimed into stop. And that's
actually not entirely true, which is something we'll get into.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
So let's get down to who Kitty Genovese really was
and what really happened to her.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Okay, so Kitty genoves like we said at the top,
of the episode was an out lesbian. And I say
that with a grain of salt, right, because it's not
like you could be completely out in the nineteen sixties,
I imagine, you know, just because doing so would have absolutely,
(06:44):
you know, jeopardized maybe her job, her living situation. I
mean you could be fired. I mean, you could be
fired for being gay not that long ago. I mean,
let's be real, so you know, most likely you were
going to be ostracized just for being yourself. It was
a very very different time back then, right.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
It's very true. You know, there are those people who
were living out loud, but you still were hiding it
most of the time.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right, you talk about your roommate quote unquote or sign
of the times, I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And just a quick disclaimer before we get any further
into the episode. You know, we have been mentioning the
fact that Kitty was a gay woman, closeted or otherwise. However,
there's no necessarily clear connection between her murder and her
sexual orientation, So I just want to be careful that
we're not drying a line between the fact that she
(07:38):
was murdered because she is gay. I think that happens
to be more a matter of circumstance that has, you know,
maybe no connection, right. Yeah, So just just kind of
pointing out who she was as a person is the
value in talking about her being gay. Right, So let's
talk a little bit more about Kitty. She was born
(07:59):
in Brooklyn, New York, the eldest of five kids in
a Catholic family in the Park Slope neighborhood. She attended
an all girls school, where she was described as quote
mature with a good disposition, whatever that means. And in
nineteen fifty four, her mother moved the family to Connecticut,
everyone except for Kitty, actually, and the reason that Kitty
(08:20):
did not move is because she had actually witnessed a
murder in the streets of New York and was incredibly
concerned for her family safety.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I mean, that's such an irony, right, It's just so crazy,
because you know, her mother moved because of what she saw.
And now the story that we're about to tell, and
as we know, Kitty stayed behind.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, right, Like the idea there was to make the
family more safe, but she ended up staying behind in
a situation that was less safe.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Well, and the other thing is too, she was nineteen
at the time that her family moved back to Connecticut.
So she didn't really want to leave. I wouldn't want
to leave either. It's you know, New York was her home.
She didn't want to go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
She's an adult.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, you're nineteen, right, You have so many friends, you
have so many relationships that you've established. It's hard to
just pack up and leave.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah. So Kitty's living in Queens, New York. She's working
double shifts at a bar called EV's Eleventh Hour. She's
actually managing it at the point of her murder, no
longer just a bartender, and she's saving up money because
she wants to eventually open up her own Italian restaurant.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Reportedly, So, I mean, as you can tell, like, she's
a go getter. And she's also living with a girlfriend
at this point. Yes, I say had a girlfriend, but
you know that was a risk at the time. But obviously,
you know, people just assumed that they were roommates, right.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Right, quote unquote roommates. Yeah, yeah, that was the thing
you said back then. Yeah, but her roommate aka girlfriend,
her name was Mary Ann Zelonko, and the two of
them shared an apartment in the neighborhood of Q Gardens
in Queens, New York. And again it's the early nineteen sixties,
(10:09):
so they do end up renting the apartment under the
guise of being just platonic roommates.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, so I wanted to read something really quick from
apiece the Chicago Tribune did in twenty seventeen where they
interviewed Marianne Zelanko, and I think it gives us a
small interesting peak into the kind of relationship they had.
Quote now looking back at two young lovers through senior
citizen eyes, Zelanko measures her adoration for Genevese in numerous ways.
(10:41):
Love was their regular Monday night sojourns to Greets, a
club where they would drink beer and listen to folk music.
It was Wednesday evening meals at Hofbrow, the German restaurant
down the block. It was the late night chats and
the intimate kisses and the idea that here is a
person you can spend your life with. End quote.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It makes my gayheart so happy, like yeah, you know,
just like all the way in twenty seventeen, you know,
after she was murdered in the nineteen sixties, like there's
still you know that love there it's just it's beautiful.
Just to hear little simple moments like that is just
really really sweet. And I love that Kitty had that
(11:20):
with mary Anne.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Right, it was a genuine love story.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, So moving on with the story here. On March
thirteenth of nineteen sixty four, Kitty is bartending and her
shift ends. She got into her red Fiat to drive
home to the apartment where her girlfriend was sleeping. And
that is the last time that anyone ever saw Kitty
Genoves alive. And we'll discuss what happened right after we
(11:47):
take a quick ad break.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
At around two thirty am on March thirteenth of nineteen
sixty four, Kitty Genoves her bartending shift and headed home
to the apartment that she shared with her girlfriend, Mary Anne.
At a stoplight on Hoover Avenue, she was spotted by
a man named Winston Moseley. He was sitting in his
parked Chevy corvat. Moseley then began following Kitty home. So
(12:18):
Kitty parked her car in the Kew Gardens Long Island
Railroad station parking lot. And this wasn't very far from
her apartment, right, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, it's super close. So only about one hundred feet
from the entrance to her apartment building and just next
door to another building across the street that will come
into play here in a minute. So you can actually
find good maps of all this online. People have mapped
it out so you can get a better understanding of
how this went down. But really this was her block, right,
(12:46):
she parks here all the time.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
In fact, I was texting with my friend David, who
is the one that told us about this case, this morning,
and he sent me a picture of the map where
Kitty lived and where she was killed and where he
currently lives, and it's literally a block apart, like he
drew it for me, and I'm like, oh my god,
I'm you know, her history is still very rich there,
(13:11):
so needless to say with all of that, you know,
she didn't have very far to go, Like she was
literally one hundred feet to safety.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
She was on her block.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
She was on her block, She was at home. But
when she got out of her car, she presumably noticed
Moseley for the first time, so he had gotten out
of his car at this point and was following her
close behind, carrying a hunting knife.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I can't even imagine that like the fear that she had,
or that anybody would have. That's anybody's worst nightmare, that
somebody is following you and they have a knife coming
after you. That's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, so terrifying. And so she immediately starts running, but
Moseley quickly catches up, and it's at this time that
he stabs her twice in the back. She of course
screams and reports very on what she said exactly, but
it's often been reported she was streaming something like quote,
(14:08):
oh my god, he stabbed me. Help me end quote.
So she was heard by bystanders.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah, and that's where a lot of I think misconceptions
come from in this case. So the first person we
know about who actually heard her was a neighbor named
Robert Moser. So Mosher apparently sense that something was going on,
some sort of kerfuffle or fight outside. He looked out
of his window from the seventh floor, but according to him,
he couldn't see anything that was happening. It was a
(14:36):
very dark night by all reports, and he did, according
to him, yell out of his window the words quote,
leave that girl alone. So I guess he could deduce
that there was a girl involved. In some sort of
attack outside, and I guess maybe yelling was going to
scare this gentleman.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Away, right right, That is exactly what happened. But there
were also other neighbors that heard this same commotion as well.
But you know, again, they're right next to a bar
and they're used to, you know, when the bar shuts
down that kind of people are drunk and there's some
kind of commotion going on. Some of these people just
(15:14):
assumed it was that.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, And later when Sint Moseley testified that Robert Moser's
yelling actually did scare him away, at least temporarily, Moseley
ran back to his car and drove off. So, of course,
Kitty was seriously injured by her two stab wounds, and
she was able to crawl towards the back of the
(15:35):
apartment building. And you know this this is significant because
it was a place where you know, she couldn't be
seen by any witnesses. So where she crawled the back
of the building, yeah, yeah, nobody could see her.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
It was essentially an alleyway.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Right right. They call it like a what is it
called like a vestibule or something, Yeah, like a back alley.
But you know, The thing about it is like when
we were just talking earlier, and that scream when she
got stabbed, like that is a blood curdling, curdling scream,
you know. So for you know, the neighbors that said
(16:11):
it was, you know, just some type of commotion. I
think that scream.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Alone should have set off all the bells and whistles.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Should have like made everybody rush, you know, and called
the police.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
So Mosley ends up coming back, and by this time
she's gotten into an entrance around the back of the building,
but of course she's severely injured from the stab wounds,
and she did get to a door, but it was locked,
so she could not get inside to safety. And it
was at this point that Mosley stabbed her several more times.
(16:46):
He raped her, and then he took all of the
money in her wallet.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
What's a I guess peculiar to me about this is
that he seemed to be on the prowl for Kitty
in particular. I don't know if that's true, but the
way that the story has been told is that he
was sitting in his car and then the second that
she got out and started walking to her apartment, you know,
just a block away he got out and started you know,
(17:13):
following her and tracking her down. So I'm curious if
he knew kitty. Yeah, what was his intended goal? Initially
it was this something like a robbery got wrong. Was
he looking for any woman that night? Yeah, it's all
very mysterious to me.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
It's so true, Trevor. I put my hat on, you know,
like my crime hat on, trying to figure that out
as well, because you think about when the first act
happened and the guy yelled at him, right, you would
think that if it was just some random person like
they would just they would run off and they wouldn't
come back, but to wait ten more minutes and then
(17:48):
come back right and viciously do this to her. Like again,
those questions go through your head. Did he know her?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Like?
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Was it a hit or something? You know, like your
mind just starts to wonder of what was the motive
behind it?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Are Yeah, Yeah, the coming back to finish the job
angle is very unusual. It's not often that you hear
see people do that, right, So he was dedicated enough
that you know, he was willing to risk being you know,
attacked or intervened or having the cops called on him
to come finish this job. Yeah, so you know, after
(18:26):
he does this, he leaves, and this is the point
at which her neighbors finally come to her. Aid. So,
there was a woman named Sophie Ferrar who lived across
the hall from Kitty and Mary Anne, and apparently at
three am she got a frantic phone call from a
neighbor in another building who knew that Kitty was in
(18:47):
some kind of distress. I don't know how they knew this,
but they did so. Anyways, Sophie Farrar leaps up, races downstairs,
and she goes through this alleyway to reach the back entrance,
just as mosely as lee the scene.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
This is definitely a different story than the popular myth
right that no one helped Kitty. That this article right
that came out right this moment right here completely changes
everything because she wasn't alone and someone did come to
help her.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, I guess the sad reality is that it wasn't
soon enough, right, that somebody probably should have come and
helped sooner, as you guys were saying, as that first
blood curdling scream came out, that should have been you know,
right when somebody jumped on this had somebody gotten there
sooner before you know, Mosley made the decision that it
was safe enough to come back ten minutes later and
(19:41):
finish the job. Yeah, you know, maybe this wouldn't have happened.
Maybe after those first two stab wounds, she would have
been fine after some initial medical attention, right. So yeah,
that's I think probably the real tragedy here. But according
to Fararar here, they were awoken earlier by kitty screams.
But according to them, it was three in the morning.
(20:02):
Many had been asleep, of course, and they were super disoriented.
It was very dark, like I said earlier, so the
Ferrara said they looked out the window, but they didn't
see anything, so they went back to sleep, and it
wasn't until they got this phone call from a neighbor
a few minutes later that they finally decided to take action.
So I think you can't look at this case in
a vacuum and just say that people knew this was
(20:26):
happening and didn't do anything. You have to take into
account the fact that it was three in the morning
and most people were sleeping through this, the fact that
it was like a bar area in New York City
in the nineteen sixties. I'm sure you heard stuff like
this often. There are other factors to consider as to
why people didn't respond to this. You know, I'm not
saying it's okay, and I do say, of course, that
(20:48):
had people actually responded sooner, again, this might not have happened.
But you know, the reality is that who knows, we
might have done the same thing if this was happening
at three am outside our house, right.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, no, it is definitely something to consider. So Sophie
Ferrar ended up getting to the scene having run through
those back alleyways, but was This is the part that's
super super sad to me. She was further delayed in
actually getting to Kitty because Kitty's body was blocking the door.
(21:18):
She was slumped up against the door on the inside,
so she couldn't open it because her body was lying there.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You know.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
When she finally got the door open, she saw Kitty,
you know, sitting there and in all of the blood,
and she immediately yelled, you know, for another neighbor to
call the police. And that's when she just cradled her
and she, I mean as best as she could. She
tried to comfort her, you know, in the last minutes
(21:51):
of her life.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, it's so sad.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
You know, an ambulance ended up arriving, but you know,
she ended up dying on the way to the hospital,
you know. And that's where the story of Kitty Genove's
life ends, and sadly, that's when the myth is born, right.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, So there's some aftermath here to talk about, and
we will do that after we take another quick break.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Around four a m. The morning of March sixteenth, nineteen
sixty four, mary Anne Zelonko is awoken from her sleep
by two police officers knocking on her door. She you know,
actually had heard none of the commotion outside the apartment building,
but years later she told reporters she was in complete
(22:42):
and utter shock when that not came and she had
to go and identify her girlfriend's body.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
So this part of the story is what breaks my
heart even more, right, And mary Anne was offered little
to no comfort by the officers and they ended up
taking her to the police station and Marianne was questioned
for six hours. According to one report quote, she was
(23:13):
grilled by at least three different detectives during that time,
and the questioning took an inappropriate turn, focusing on their
sex life.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, I guess I wish this was more surprising, but
I think this kind of approach to a case like
this was probably pretty common at the time unfortunately. And
I know the questioning of the neighbors and the days
that followed also were centered on the fact that this
was a lesbian couple and that that was somehow relevant
to the fact that she was murdered, which I think, again,
(23:45):
as we said at the beginning of the episode, has
no relevance. Yeah, so it's the nineteen sixties, that right,
So it's probably the first thing they're thinking about, yep, Like.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Are they questioning her because they think she had something
to do with it, or that Kitty was murdered for
being a lesbian?
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Like I think it's a little bit of both if
you think about it, you know, because they always suspect
you know, whoever's close right to the victim at first,
so I'm sure that was in the back of their minds.
And then on top of them probably not approving, you know,
of her lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
M Yeah, I mean, if nothing else, it reveals that
the police were, you know, more concerned with her fringe
lifestyle than they were with solving her murder perhaps, so
that's maybe where her sexuality plays a contextual purpose in
this case, right. So Unfortunately it didn't really end there.
(24:42):
Mary Anne went to Kitty's funeral only to have her family,
that is, Kitty's family, just refused to acknowledge her Mary Anne.
And then a few days later, Winston Moseley was arrested
as he tried to steal a television set from a
nearby neighborhood. After this arrest, he apparently confessed to Kitty's murder,
which is surprising. Yeah, so a little bit about Winston Mosley.
(25:06):
He was a twenty nine year old man who lived
in Ozone Park, which is basically the same neighborhood where
he was arrested. He was married with three children, and
he worked as a tab operator, which means that he
would punch tabs in cards which are used in computers
at the time, and he actually didn't have a criminal
record before this point. Still, he told police that he
(25:27):
had committed thirty to forty robberies along with the murders
he had confessed to already, so in addition to Kitty's murder,
he had also killed a woman named Annie May Johnson
a few weeks before by shooting her and setting her
on fire, like.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
This is just you know, beyond I mean, we go
back to psychopath, right, and I just point out that
Annie May Johnson was black. You know, so Kitty was
Italian American. Annie May Johnson was African American. He also
had an IQ of one thirty five, and he was
(26:02):
a very like small frame.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
Man.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I go back to thinking about George Odell and just
doctor Jekyll, mister Hyde.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
It's interesting that he supposedly has gotten away with thirty
to forty crimes and or murders without ever being discovered
up until this point, right, Like, to me, that suggests
somebody who is very probably cunning, knows what they're doing,
knows how to calculate tricks, very calculated exactly. So it
(26:33):
could be this was like a low key serial killer
that was hiding in the shadows this whole time. And
for sure of that, you know, as you were alluding to,
it could be he had some sort of target on
marginalized people. I don't know that for sure. I'm just speculating,
but you know, based on the track record that you
were laying out, it's very possible and that very much
falls in line with them of a lot of serial
(26:54):
killers at the time, right, So I don't know, maybe
there's something more to look at there in the future.
Moving forward with his track record, he also confessed to
the murder of a fifteen year old named Barbara Kralik,
whose murder he was not charged with, incidentally, because apparently
somebody else had already confessed to that crime. Right.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
And this is just this is so odd to me
because he's just confessing to all of these crimes. But
like you just said, right, he's never been convicted. It's
so bizarre on so many levels.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
He wants the credit.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Maybe again, that's another serial killer trait, right. I don't
know if you guys have ever read the writings of
John Douglas, the famous FBI profialer, but he finds that
that is something that is very common in serial killers
of the sixties and seventies. So anyhow, on June eighth,
Mosley's trial begins and he played it not guilty by
(27:50):
a reason of insanity. Not the first time we've seen this, right,
And then after seven hours of deliberation, the jury returned,
of course, with a pretty straightforward guilty verdict.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Needless to say, it is good that he is convicted,
and a few days later, Mosely is sentenced to death.
Mosley doesn't even react to this, but the audience in
the courtroom collapse in cheers. The judge ends up ordering
them to remain calm, but he also says, and this
(28:21):
is a quote from the judge, although I do not
believe in capital punishment. When I see a monster like this,
I wouldn't hesitate to pull the switch myself.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
So he's sentenced and sent to prism. But then three
years later, in nineteen sixty seven, a court ruled that
Moseley should have had the chance to argue that he
was medically insane, and his sentence was then reduced to
life in prison. So then things take another bad turn.
As he was being escorted back to prison from a
(28:53):
hospital in Buffalo where he was being treated for a
self inflicted injury, he actually escaped, so he beat a
corrections officer, stole their weapon, and was able to flee.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
And do so much more damage.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So he ends up going into a vacant house owned
by an older woman. Three days later, her son Matthew
and his wife visit the house and Mosley takes them hostage.
He binds them, and he gags them, and he rapes
Matthew's wife. He stayed for another hour before fleeing again
to another home, where he held a mother and daughter
hostage for a couple hours before he was finally arrested again. Sheez.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I mean, we can obviously say he is not a
sympathetic person. It just seems like nothing phases this guy,
you know what I mean, He's just like cold. I
read something recently and something that Winston Moseley said in
(29:52):
one of the parorole hearings, and this was years later.
This is a quote he says, for a victim outside
a one time or a one hour or a one
minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever.
Like it's forever for the victims and their families.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, it's just a type of delusional, psychopathic thinking, right.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I think he probably has some chemical and I don't
know much about his upbringing, but you know, some sort
of chemical imbalance that leads his thinking to again lean
towards psychopathy. I think I think it's more of that coldness,
you know. I think this person has you know, very
violent leanings and clearly lacks any empathy whatsoever towards other humans.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, like you escape prison and you'd think you'd like
flee to Mexico and like ghost like live on a
beach the rest of your life or something. But he
breaks out and he hurts multiple people.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
He was denied parole and and he died in prison
at you know, the age of eighty one.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
So meanwhile, what does live on is this myth about
the murder of Kitty Genovese. What was genuinely, you know,
so sad at the time is that people came, but
they came too late, but they did come.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Her neighbors did.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Try to help her, as we've gone over during this episode.
So why did we all learn this myth that thirty
eight people looked on but didn't help Kitty.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Well, I think, like most things, it's all about the
way the message is portrayed by the media right to
people in the republic. So most of this came from
a New York Times story published two weeks after the murder,
and the literal headline was quote thirty eight who saw murder,
didn't call police end quote. And of course this article
(31:56):
was riddled with inaccuracies. For example, the piece claimed quote
for more than half an hour, thirty eight respectable law
abiding citizens and queens watched a killer stock and stab
a woman in three separate attacks in Q gardens. Not
one person telephoned the police during the assault. One witness
called after the woman was dead. So, as we've said
(32:17):
this whole episode, very few of those things are true.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Right, Yes, the thing that really sticks with me about
this case is when that article was written in the
New York Times about the thirty eight bystanders that consciously
affected the masses of people.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Yes, there are people who don't want to get involved,
but most importantly people do want to get involved. People
do want to help their neighbors, and that that is
the disservice that that particular article led for the masses.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, I will say as a trained journalist, obviously getting
things accurate is in credit important to me, and you know,
like any journalist, it would bug me when I discover
in accuracies in well known publications. You know. That said,
there is a bit of a maybe unintended silver lining
that was pretty common with media in the mid century
(33:16):
American publications, which is that they would over dramatize certain
issues for the sake of scaring people into being better.
So although this was inaccurate, it did have the effect
of exposing this kind of issue to people. Even if
the issue is not this black and white, it can
certainly be an issue, right that a group of bystanders
(33:39):
don't do anything because they assume everybody else is going
to do something. Like again, that's in psychology books. That
is a thing, right, So now everybody knows about that
as a thing, and now more people are cautious about that.
You know, even if their understanding of the issue is flawed, right,
at least they're to some degree conscious of it. And
(34:00):
you know, maybe next time that that happens in their neighborhood,
now that they've read this New York Times article, they
would know to do something and they wouldn't want to
be like the people they read about in that news article.
So I don't know, like it's kind of a double
edged sword, right, it serves some purpose and then you know,
kind of flounders on the other side of the coin.
(34:20):
So just something to consider, right, yep.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
One huge positive thing that came out of this crime.
And this is exactly why when I was speaking to David,
my beautiful friend, I knew we had to do this
story because Kitty Genovese was murdered.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
That actually led to the creation.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Of what we all now know today as nine to
one one that didn't exist back then, you know, like
the New York Times article stated how the thirty eight
people you know didn't come to her aid, but two
people did call.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
The police, you know.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
And maybe if we would have had nine one one
back then, maybe Kitty would have made it.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
Maybe she would have lived.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Strange to imagine a world without nine one one.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
But yeah, one person who remembered Kitty Genovas before she
was a victim was really the love of her life
at the time, her girlfriend, mary Anne Zelanko. In two
thousand and four, Mary Anne spoke to the like I
said the Chicago Tribune, and I'm going to quote that
(35:30):
piece here in trying to do it without tears.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
To Zelonko, Jeno Vase is alive. She is still.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Standing there in the Manhattan bar where her two first
met on an early spring day in nineteen sixty three,
running a hand through her short brown hair while taking
a drag from the end of a camel cigarette. Jenovas
was a talkative woman with big brown eyes and infectious
giggle and a tiny gap but the tip of her
(36:01):
two front teeth, and the twenty five year old Celanco
was smitten.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
And this brings us to our Emua always our message
of hope and healing. And I really think about my
mom right now, because my mom, I should say. Our
mom would always say to look for the helpers. So
(36:32):
our Emua goes out to the good neighbors among us.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
We see you, yes we do.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
And Sophie Ferrar was Kitty Jenno Vese's neighbor. Sophie risked
her own life by rushing in to save Kitty's life,
and she cradled the dying woman's head in her lap,
trying to comfort her in what would be her final
moments on this earth.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
We can make the largest difference in someone's life alone,
life saving difference simply by noticing a neighbor helping them
taking action. That action may be simple, It might just
be a conversation, just asking someone how are you, how
is your day? But such kindness, whether it be large
(37:20):
or small, it makes a big difference.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
And if you are someone who has showed up for
a neighbor or been kind of a stranger, we see you.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
And we thank you onward and upward emua Ema. Well,
that is our show for today. We'd love to hear
what you thought about today's discussion and if there is
a case that you would like us to cover, find
(37:51):
us on social media or Facing Evil Pod or email
us at Facing Evil Pod at Tenderfoot dot tv.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And one request, if you haven't already, please find us
on iTunes and give us a review and good rating.
If you like what we do, your support is always cherished.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Until next time, Aloha.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero in a Vetchentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
Albright and Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(38:45):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at Facing Evil Pod at
Tenderfoot for more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. Visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(39:09):
your favorite shows.
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