February 23, 2023 • 39 mins
Meet the man behind this global megachurch. Hillsong started small in a school hall in Australia nearly 40 years ago. In this episode we go back to Hillsong’s roots and the man who built a mega church - Brian Houston - aka ‘The Big Eagle’. For many years Brian Houston, his wife Bobbie and their kids were the Hillsong powerbase. But in March 2022 Brian steps down as leader. As the power structure crumbles, Elle Hardy heads to Sydney to explore the rise and fall of ‘House of Houston’. During the episode a bombshell drops: a whistleblower makes a series of claims about the church finances. Hillsong denies any wrong doing. But Elle finds Hillsong and its followers dealing with wave after wave of scandal.
Thanks to Australian Broadcasting Corporation Library Sales for use of ABC news archive.
False Profits: Hillsong is produced by Storyglass for iHeartRadio
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
So the first time I heard and saw Brian Houston,
I was in Hillsong, Phoenix for the first time, and
when it came time for the sermon to happen, they
dragged a screen onto the stage in Phoenix and they
started playing a recording of Brian speaking, and I remember
(00:25):
trying to understand what he was saying because his accent
was so thick that I was just like my face
was like frowning, like not pitting everything together. And when
I started to finally understand what he was saying, I
started to realize that he wasn't that great of a preacher.
(00:46):
It was more of a motivational speech, and he said
he was going to give us a list on how
to be a better person, for example, and he never
finished the list. He only got to the first point.
So it was hilarious to me the fact that this man,
who is like, quote unquote the big eagle within Hillsong
(01:07):
at the time, didn't preach and wasn't charismatic in comparison
to other people. So when I see him, and from
that experience moving forward, I quickly knew that he was
just a white man, a white heterosexual man who got
lucky to have the platform. He did because of his father, obviously,
but now seeing his downfall and him being removed from
(01:30):
Hillsong and the board, it seems to me like his
luck has run out. You're listening to false prophets Hillsong
the story of a mega church and its followers. I
am no m Audibe and I used to be a
part of Hillsong, but I left and now I'm telling
my story. I suppose his luck has run out in
(01:50):
a way. And this is journalist l Hardy getting the
inside story that Hillsong didn't want to tell, but just
saying his houses in Sydney, He's certainly still living a
very charmed and blessed life. He's exceptionally wealthy. He has
a beautiful mansion out in the hills. He has an
apartment on Bondai Beach, probably the best real estate in Australia.
(02:14):
He's still jetting around the world, visiting friends in Europe
and the United States. So I guess, you know, public
humiliation sounds like a pretty horrible thing to go through,
but in terms of his general circumstances, he's still got
a lot of luck on his side. I've recently returned
(02:35):
to my hometown of Sydney to take a closer look
at the Houston lifestyle. We're on our way to Brian
and Bobby Houston's house. It's in the upmarket suburb of
glen Haven, about fifteen minutes from Hillsong's headquarters. It's a
very nice, manicured suburb, but it's quiet. It's there's almost
(02:57):
an eeriness out here. There's no kids riding there by,
acts around. Feels a bit walled off and maybe that's
why the Houston's like it. It's only a few miles
from the school hall where Hillsong was started by Brian
and Bobby in the nineteen eighties with just a few followers,
but it's a world away from this lifestyle and wealth.
(03:18):
It's yeah, a little leafy, could sac there's some sort
of bushland it's looking over, but they're quite nice. Say
they're big houses. They're modern houses there. I think the
word is McMansions, but I'm not sure if that's too disparaging.
You know, some of the houses have letters spelt out
instead of the numbers. Brian's come a long way. He
was born in New Zealand and both his parents were
(03:40):
in the Salvation Army. His father Frank was a preacher too.
Lots of beautiful trees, but it's it certainly as a
well healed area and a private area, to the point
where I wonder, if you know, we do another lap
or two, that someone might come out and take down
our number plate. But one of their children, that their
younger stood, Laura, lives nearby here, so we're going to
(04:01):
go check out her place quickly as well. Laura, her
husband Peter, and her brothers Benjamin and Joel are all
part of the Hillsong Empire. It's a family affair. So
we're coming up to Ryan and Bobby Houston's house. Your
destination is on the left. I think it's just one
(04:25):
of here. She said, it's a huge gate. Does that
look like a huge gate to you? This looks like
a pretty big gate, huge brick settin better spikes. Wow,
it does look pretty grand house fit for a pre
(04:48):
checking and you can enjoy the lifestyle too, because the
house is now for sale. This is what the sales
pitch says. No expense has been bad and the sensational
property designed for a spectacular entertainer's lifestyle. For about three
million US dollars. All this can be yours, including walk
(05:09):
in wardrobes, a pool, and a hot top. We're out
the front of Brian and Bobby's house. Oh fuck, is
a coupling up than well? Some of the Houstons are
(05:31):
checking out me and my producer Sharon. But it's okay.
We're on public property, just hanging there. Are they going
checking out? Should check us out? Hey there we're diad
(05:55):
a camera. We're just recording some audio. Yeah, for a podcast. Okay,
we're having a chat to you guys. We'll have an
advo chat to you guys if you want to pardon.
She's are the best. That's Laura Peter. Yeah, he's still
(06:21):
on the board. Fuck, I reckon. I wonder if one
of the neighbors said something or how did they know
when were here? They saw it walking, but they might
have a camera. Sorry, my heart's going every miles an
hour and now yeah, no, no no, no, it's just you
know which Yeah, Um, do you see the look? I
(06:45):
don't know if you saw the look on Laura's face,
but she did. She looked filthy, did she? Yeah? She
was not happy. We just had a bit of a
(07:07):
confrontation with one of their children. They reverse the car out.
It was Laura and Peter. Laura's their their youngest stare
down and they had their kids in the car, and
they reversed up and they asked us what we were
doing here and why we had cameras and if we
were a recording. Yeah, we just just said that we
would love to speak to them. That they didn't seem
(07:27):
interested and drove off. So, yeah, that was a bit
of an interesting experience when you've been writing about people.
I'd love for them to speak with me, but I
don't think that they ever will because there's a Norwestern
business work. Okay, time to head off to hills On
(07:48):
Church and there are a few to choose from in Sydney.
We're going to an inner city one in the Waterloo area.
Write out the Century Circuit. I had a piece of
newspaper this morning with some leaked emails from the Houston
family when all of the problems are going down with
Brian being forced to resign back in March twenty two,
(08:11):
and it's so interesting how much of this stuff is
circulating in the church, and sources of mine inside and
formerly of the church. We're already messaging me at nine
o'clock this morning. It's really interesting to see just how
much this stuff spreads like wildfire, that there are a
lot of people that just really want the Houstons to
be brought back to earth. The story was about leaked
(08:33):
emails from two of the Houston children, Benjamin and Laura.
They sent the board emails on March twenty and they're
very emotional and it really I think what they really show,
which is most interesting to me, is that the Houstons
consider the church their church. It's the family firm. They
(08:54):
think that they built it from the ground up. Whereas
if you speak to a lot of current and former
Hills members, they say, no, no, no no, this is our church.
It's a community asset. We built this with our labor,
with our people, with our love, with our commitment. And
that's really at the heart of the power struggle at
the moment in the church is people saying that the
Houstons need to recognize that, you know, they were obviously
(09:16):
a huge part of its success and its growth, but
it's time for them to go. And I don't think
that any of the children certainly are seen as natural
leaders or heirs to the church. And Brian did not
have a succession plan in place. He thought he had
another good ten years or so. He's sixty seven now,
he's a very fit guy and he does not want
(09:36):
to give up control. So I certainly think that we're
going to be seeing this playing out for a long
time to come. This is a time of real jeopardy
for Hillsong. Sure it's face scandals before, but this time
it's brought down the top guy, Brian Houston, has been
forced out after an investigation into inappropriate behavior towards two women. Now,
(09:59):
for many people in Australia, Brian Houston was Hillsong and
while the Houston's plan their next move, the Hillsong board
installs an interim leader and argues about how to protect
the church and followers. Let's find out how they're feeling. Right,
then your destination will be on the least. Were at
(10:24):
Hillsong Waterloo, which is the city campus, and it's Sunday
morning and a lot of young, happy people are walking
out of the church. So we thought we'd got to
a few of them and have a word. I we're
just making a podcast about the church and we'd sort
of want to tell both sides. So we're just wondering
a few guys ago, no oay to be honest, that's
(10:47):
the kind of response I think we're going to get.
You just don't get many people who still go to
Hillsong talking about it. There's certainly a perception there's been
fed to them for many years that the media is
always telling the wrong story and he has always been
against the church and the Houstons, and that the media
only cares about the money. We're just wondering us about
(11:07):
the church, and we're trying to tell both sides. So
we just want to know what you love about your
church everything? Sorry, but what's everything community? I attribute everything
good in my life to this church. I've been born
in the church. I've been there since I was a
little kid, and I love it. It's well all my
friends are some of my families. I love worship, I
(11:29):
love the community. I love going to dinner Sunday night
with church. I love being able to lead kids on
their journey on Fridays as a youth leader. It's one
of the most fulfilling things in the Taiwer. You come
here and you might be broken, you might not feel
like you have a place in this crazy world. You
come here and everyone's really welcoming. They welcome you with
(11:52):
open arms. They don't judge you for you know, what
you've done. Do you feel that her son gets a
bit of a rough ride in the media. Church is
not a place of perfect people at all, Like, I
don't think anyone's claiming that or you know, and they
think like we're just imperfect people. Yeah. I think the
(12:12):
main thing is that other community is fantastic. Everyone's you know,
loves on each other and obviously Christians, and so we
find it's a really good place to worship, full of
authenticity and genuine people. A people use the word community
a lot, and I'm really interested in that concept of
what that means in relation to the church. Well, I think, well,
(12:35):
this is a good example. This is Keith. We met
him at church and we see each other every week
and we basically hang out not just that church for us,
at a church as well. So we're talking about community,
we're talking about that sense of family. So yeah, that's
gonna say. It does really feel like family because we
have so many new people coming here all the time,
and we'll welcome a lot of new people and it's
(12:57):
just an ever growing community and family. It's something that's
really different. It's just grow so much so and we'll
welcome everyone from the new bonds to like people who
are in their eighties or hundreds or whatever. So yeah,
we're really happy to have everyone here. Just become part
of this awesome family. Hilson has been given a bit
of a rough trott media lately. How do you guys
(13:18):
feel about that. It's not really lately, It's been for
as long as I've known living in Sydney. I think
the way that we navigates we have a personal experience
of hell Song and we don't It's not like based
on what people have said or what we've read. It's
actually our own personal experience and nothing can really trump that.
The media. Yeah, yeah, it's sometimes one person's perspective. And
(13:44):
we have experienced the leadership here. We know personally some
of the leaders and the pastors and we've been mentored
by them and we absolutely adore them. And a lot
of it comes down to our faith and our personal
walk with God, and that's the lens that we use
to view things like scrutiny and stuff. In the church.
Everything's being shaken, but this is I think a small
(14:08):
part of what's in the long term. So we believe
that we're just gonna continue to grow, continue to do
what we need to do. I really enjoyed speaking to
Keith and his friends just now because for me, they're
really typical Hillsong is. They're aware of the issues that
they're not necessarily shying away from them, but they're able
(14:28):
to square it by saying that humans are imperfect, that
we're all sinners before God, that God is the only
one that's perfect. Ultimately, what we seem to keep coming
back to why people are saying in the church is
they just like the sense of community. You'll still find
a lot of people now saying, well, it's our church,
it's not the Houston's Church. A lot of people Brian
is a figure that's on the TV. Sometimes their connection
(14:49):
is much more deep and real within the church. The
notable thing from when I went inside is how much
the attendances have dropped from when I was there in January.
Still very much the same crowd representative of the local area,
lots of young people, but attendances would be down at
least half or two thirds on the amount of people
that I saw in January. Pretty significant. It's difficult to
(15:11):
say for sure, but considering I've been told that attendances
are down at a lot of the places. I think
it's pretty safe to assume that attendances are down here,
and the reason is the scandal, the embarrassment. Maybe some
people are just finding new churches. Hillsong has a lot
of imitators and sometimes it's just easier to go to
a different church. Just to give you a sense of
(15:32):
the term oil that went on behind the scenes, there
were real divisions about whether Brian Houston should be forced
out of the church he found it. He has loyal
supporters as well as critics. I've seen a letter that
Hillsong's hate of people and development. John Mays wrote to
the board just before Brian was sacked. He described Brian
as a man who saw himself as beyond disciplinary boundaries
(15:55):
and normal societal expectations. He dismissed an investigation into Brian's
behavior as dribble. Finally, he calls on the board to
consider removing Brian permanently from his position in Hillsong along
with his wife. Within days that happens, No wonder. Security
guards outside the church are feeling nervous about journalists. Hey, hey,
(16:19):
how are you going to get them on the team. Yeah,
I heard that you're doing there some sort of reporting.
They're just doing box pops style. That's just as people
that's what they think she's doing. She's doing a voice
her and then we ask people what they've seen. So yeah,
there's no filming. No, no, they're just audio. Yeah, just audio. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(16:42):
thank you. Isaac from the venue team came out. They
have a lot of volunteers in different positions, and they
certainly have a production and venue teams and there he
certainly looks like the head of security and the security
gardment and told him that I had to look around.
They clearly don't want us in there. And you know,
we're outside in public property, so that's fine. And they
(17:03):
just said that we can't take photos inside because they
are children around. But yeah, they're clearly not chilled by
us being here. A lot of Hillsong insiders won't talk publicly,
but one is so angry about the investigation into Brian
that she decided to speak out. Details of his behavior
are pretty sketchy. The most recent incident centers on forty
(17:26):
minutes Brian spent in a woman's hotel room. He says
he can't remember what happened, but he does say that
he'd been taking pills and booze. My contact feels fobbed
off by the church, but talking publicly would cause a
rift in the community and in her family, so her
words are spoken by an actor. It kind of brought
a whole level of shock into learning who these people
(17:49):
really are. And maybe this is the tip of the
iceberg of what we've been fed for copious amounts of years.
So when all this other stuff came out, it was like, ah, okay,
it all brings it back to what's this narcissist behavior
the whole time? And I look back, I'm like, literally
in horror. It was great at the beginning, but when
(18:11):
did it turn from being about people to about you
and your needs being met and your fame and your
celebrity status. And I think what it's turned into is, Yeah,
it's disgusting, disgusting. I don't think they will come back
to Hillsong Church as it is. I think they will
(18:32):
relaunch their careers somehow. If they ever come back, I'm
leaving because then it's all a joke. Monday Beach is
the iconic picture of Sydney. It's sunshine, beautiful people, everyone's
(18:52):
in in the ocean, surfing, going for a run with
their dog along the promenades, people doing yoga and meditating,
sitting outdoors at the cafes. It's a real place to
see and be seeing and it's the lifestyle capital of Sydney.
And needless to say, property here is pretty expensive. I've
come to Bondai because it's the second home of Brian
(19:14):
and Bobby Houston, and it's kind of emblematic of everything
that's gone wrong with the church. Their apartment is in
a prime real estate position, right on the south end
of the beach. They'd probably be able to throw from
their curtains and watch the beach each morning. The property's
worth around two million US and for a second home,
that's quite a lot of money. And it's really a
(19:36):
long way from what the church started out as and
from what people who have given so much to the
church over the years feel. They felt that they're building
a community, that they're building a place to do good
in the world. They are absolute mega celebrities within the
Christian pastor circle, particularly in the US, because they change
the business model. They made it okay to be this brand,
(19:56):
and so many preachers and churches around the world wanted
to to emulate that. A number of them brought into
the Hillsong umbrella where they give you a five percent
of all their profits to the overarching Hillsong Church to
get the branding, to get the training to be more
like Brian and Bobby. So even in parts of Africa
and South America, whether a Hillsong branches now, they're throwing
(20:16):
huge numbers of congregants because people feel as though they're
part of something bigger. It's not just the small local church.
They felt as though they were part of a big
global brand. And Brian and Bobby have always been the happy, friendly,
good looking, suave faces of US. Dramatic allegations have been
leveled tonight against Hillsong. The mega church is accused of
(20:36):
breaking Australian law by sending millions of dollars overseas and
then august rating an elaborate cover up. On August the twelfth,
a statement of claim was filed in the courts in
Australia with an employee of Hillsong's finance department. And this
is just dynamite. The one thing that anyone that's looked
into Hillsong over the last ten twenty years has been
(20:58):
trying to find out is how much money is there
and where's it going? And this is the closest that
we've gotten yet to looking at Hillsong's books. The employee
made a number of complaints about the way that they
were handling transferring money between different Hillsong entities and different
Hillsong countries, and this employee is said to have downloaded
(21:21):
some forty thousand documents. Court documents claim church leaders used
tax free money for large cash gifts to Hillsong's founder
and his family. So some of the other interesting things
that have come out of it, firstly the sums of
money that are being moved around, and this is charity
money that people have given over in good faith. What's
(21:41):
really interesting to me as a journalist is knowing the
lawyer that's taken on her case is a very high
profile lawyer that's affiliated with the labor movement in Australia
so often takes on high profile cases to embarrass big
corporations and to set precedents, and so him taking on
this case really makes me think that they want to
(22:03):
flush these documents out of Hillsong, and that's obviously really
exciting for someone like me. I'm Josh Bornstein. I'm the
head of employment law at Maurice Blackburn. I've represented many
whistleblowers across public and private sector over many years. Josh
Bornsteen is representing Natalie Moses. She's the Hillsong whistleblower. It's
(22:23):
important to remember the court is being asked to decide
an employment or a fair work case. The court is
not being asked to investigate Hillsong's finances. It has to
decide whether Natalie Moses was treated unfairly by her employer, Hillsong.
The cases about concerns Natalie Moses had about Hillsong and
its finances, and whether her employment was terminated because she
(22:45):
raised those concerns or for some other reason. It's the
first time I've represented a whistleblower in a religious institution.
I've tended to represent them either in big private sector
companies or sometimes government bodies, but this is the first
time I'm in a religious setting that whistleblowers come to
see me. Natalie Moses, like many whistleblowers, is someone with
(23:07):
a very strong sense of ethics, strong laural code, who
is herself quite religious, and who has worked in governance
and financial management roles, if I can put it that way,
in Hillsong for some years, like many other whistleblower cases,
these cases have a very similar trajectory. She has been
(23:27):
raising concerns with progressive intensity or incrementally increasing the way
in which she has raised concerns about financial matters, in
particular governance compliance with corporations law, tax law, charity's law
within a very complex financial empire that Hillsong is, and
(23:49):
the matters continue to escalate to the point of having
open disagreement with very senior executives within Hillsong, and then,
in another familiar twist, suddenly her access to information was
cut off and she was under a disciplinary investigation allegedly
(24:09):
because of accessing documents, and was fearful that she was
about to be sacked, and that's when she contacted me.
Whether the Hillsong documents are made public depends on whether
the case ever comes to court, and many cases like
this are settled out of court. So Natalie Moses's claims
(24:30):
have not been tested and Hillsong disputes them. He's Josh
Bondstein again talking about Miss moses concerns. This is a
very complicated financial empire with multiple entities across the world,
some with charitable status, which received tax deductible donations and
are required to comply with relevant legislative standards in Australia.
(24:55):
So there are concerns that companies within the Hillsong Empire
are not complying with corporations law, particularly about requirements that
the law imposes when you transfer money from Australia overseas.
There are concerns that Hillsong is encouraging followers to donate
(25:16):
to them on the basis that their donations will be
for tax deductible purposes, but then using that money in
a manner that's not properly tax deductible. There are concerns
that the I think eighteen entities within the Hillsong Empire
that have charitable status are not complying with legislative requirements
(25:38):
for charities in Australia. There's very serious concerns that the
Charities Regulator, which has commenced and inquiry into some of
the Hillsong entities, is not being provided with accurate information
in response to its questions, which is a pretty serious matter.
There's concerns that the tax laws not being complied with.
There's concerns about excessive gifts, remuneration, unusual arrangements, about designating
(26:05):
musicians as pastors of the church, paying them significant salaries
which is at least in part text deductible at the
same time as they are receiving sometimes up to millions
of dollars in royalties. There's just an enormous range of
complex issues that Natalie Moses has raised in this proceeding.
(26:26):
Hillsong is robustly defending the case. We invited the church
to take part in this series and it did not
take up the offer. Hillsong filed its defense on the
fourteenth of October twenty twenty two and denies many of
moses allegations. In its defense, the church denies Natalie moses
central claim that she was unfairly suspended. Hillsong says she
(26:48):
breached its I policy and acted outside the scope of
her role, including by downloading forty thousand documents over a weekend,
many of them confidential, and then deleting her scent and
leated items when called into a meeting with the HR
staff member. And on the accusations about its finances, Hillsong
denies it deceived the Australian Charities Regulator and It denies
(27:11):
that miss Moses was ever asked to help lie to
the regulator. Hillsong says Miss Moses was reassured that if
any issues were identified as part of the regulators investigation,
then Hillsong would move to correct the issue proactively. Hillsong
also denies claims tax free money was used for cash
gifts to Brian Houston and his family, or that it
(27:32):
represented to followers that certain donations were tax seductible and
then use that money for activities that were not tax seductible.
The church says an independent audit found that the Hillsong
Foundation Trust has not breached its own trust seed or
charity legislation. Hillsong also denies that it has not provided
accurate information to the charity regulator, or that it breached
(27:55):
tax law by paying musicians as if they were passes
and therefore of boyd at tax liability, and on the
accusations that the church breached rules with payments made to
overseas entities. In its defense, Hillsong says that it's international
operations did not contravene the external conduct standards which govern
Howard registered charity has to manage its activities outside of Australia. So,
(28:22):
just to recap, the bombshell went off in August, only
five months after Brian Houston's exit in disgrace. So Hillsong
is still reeling when my contact inside the church gets
in touch again as the Natalie Moses story breaks. When
I saw the article, I guess my heart has gone
straight out to Miss Moses. I feel that she is
(28:44):
what we in the church used to say, brave women
run in my family. Well, I'll tell you what I
think that is a definition of a brave woman. She's
probably lost her job, she's probably been excluded. It doesn't
read to me like she was trying to undermine her
boss and do things against the flow. I feel like
she was trying to protect the church and she came
(29:07):
across as being from a place of we need to
be doing the absolute by the book. And while the
new leadership of Hillsong is dealing with the Moses case,
there are still divisions over the way that Brian Houston
left the church. My contact is critical of the Houston leadership,
but other people are still loyal to Brian and Bobby.
I'm still not attending church in person. I'll watch online.
(29:29):
I've got friends who are in the same camp as me,
a lot of friends. And then I've got people who
I'm observing who are the sheep following the Houstons who
are actually thought better off. So there's this weird dynamic
of people who are wanting to align with the Houstons
and not seeing that they were the very biggest problem
we had. I think there's a huge camp of we
(29:50):
see exactly what's going on, and we don't know what
to do with this shit, which is kind of where
I'm at. And then I think there are these sheeples who,
oh my god, Brian and Bobby, we love you forever.
When it first came out, it was like a real
massive shock, traumatic shock to the system because you believed
(30:10):
in these people, You supported these people, poured megabucks into
the church personally, to find out it's all a fass. Really,
it's all a fass. It's basically a fass. It feels
like it's been a generating money system for the Houston family.
Was any of this really about the church? Because I'm
finding that hard to join those dots. It feels like
(30:32):
it's all about them. So, yeah, where's the humility and
the grace in this there's none which tells me that
all along. Maybe they started off thirty nine years ago
with the right intentions, but somewhere along the line it
became about them, their power, their reputation, and yeah, I
(30:52):
find that conflicting, very conflicting. The man dealing with the
fallout is past the fil Duel, Hillsong's interim leader. He's
a very different character from the big Eagle Brian Houston.
He's more low key and he doesn't have Brian Houston's
political connections. So there we go. Thank you, Yes, thank you.
(31:24):
So we're heading up to a sausage sizzle, which is
known as democracy sausage. So polling places in Australia are
almost always schools and traditionally they're allowed to hosts of
fundraiser for their school at the same time. So for
a dollar or two you get a sausage on a
barbecue in a bit of bread. This is federal election
day in Australia. Hillsong under Brian Houston had friends in
(31:47):
very high places. Prime Minister Scott Morrison name checked him
when he was first elected and remained a supporter for
many years. Scott Morrison didn't attend Hillsong Church but he
was a good friend of Brian's. In fact, he helped
him get a photo up at the White House with
President Trump. It's a very Australian tradition that everyone loves
(32:07):
doing on the day and it's um yeah, it's part
of the reason voting is compulsory here, so you've got
to come along and wait in line for five or
ten minutes. So it's a perk of the obligation. I suppose, okay,
here you go, and as it turns out, there's a
spare half, so if you give it back to me,
(32:28):
pop that. I don't know how we ended up with spirit.
Scott Morrison lost this election and the new government has
announced inquiries into a number of projects with links to Hillsinger. Today,
yet I'm a I'm a vegetarian, so it's not really
my thing. But the most serious test yet for Brian
Houston personally is coming. It links back to his past
(32:51):
and to his late father, Frank Houston. Do you wish
to take the oath or the affirmation? Could you raise
the Bible in your right hand please and repeat after me.
I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God
(33:12):
that the evidence I shall give the evidence I shall
give in this Royal Commission, In this Royal Commission shall
be the truth. Shall be the truth, the whole truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and nothing
but the truth. This is Brian Houston giving evidence to
a public inquiry known as a Royal Commission hearing in
two thousand and fourteen. It's looking into allegations of child
(33:33):
abuse and you've prepared a statement for the Royal Commission,
dated the twenty eighth of September twenty fourteen. Yes, are
there any changes you wish to make that state? Do
you say it truly could correct for us of your knowledge? Yes,
I tender the statement eighteen zero zero nine. The hearing
her that allegations emerged in nineteen ninety nine that Frank
(33:55):
Houston sexually abused a child in the nineteen seventies. Brian
Houston was the National President of the Assemblies of God
in Australia at the time, a powerful organization that oversaw
many churches in Australia, including Hillsong. Brian Houston confronted his father,
who confessed to the abuse. So my father retired in
(34:17):
May nineteen ninety nine from senior pastor role at the time,
it seemed very rushed that he suddenly asked me if
I would take on the church. And now with hindsight,
I think we know some of the reasons why that is.
After hearing Brian Houston's evidence, the commissioners decided that he
and the National Executive of Assemblies of God did not
(34:38):
refer the allegations against Frank Houston to police. They decided
that Brian had a conflict of interests. He has always
argued that the victim did not want the abuse reported
to police. After a two year investigation, in twenty twenty one,
police charged Brian Houston with concealing child abuse. Brian Houston
has always vehemently denied the charges. It all seems a
(35:02):
long way from the church that Naomi became a part
of in Boston, and these shadows from the past sometimes
seem remote to Hillsong followers in Australia today. But what
we have to remember is this case is part of
a much bigger picture. It's part of a massive undertaking
in Australia to examine abuses of the past and try
to bring some sort of justice. It's so interesting to
(35:25):
hear your first impressions of Brian because coming from Australia,
it was always Brian Houston's Hillsong, So it's interesting to
hear that in America it wasn't so much to do
with the Houston family. I'm really interested. I guess that.
You know, did you sort of look into Hillsong at
all before you joined or was it just getting caught
up in the way that it made you feel once
(35:46):
you were in that room and finding a new home
as they call it. No, I did not look into
it beforehand, because yes, I did get caught up in
the feel and the look of it. I knew that
Hillsong had come from Australia, but that was pretty much it.
I didn't really care too much to look deeper. When
(36:08):
I first heard of Brian and heard him speak at
Hillsong Phoenix in the recording, it kind of seemed weird
to me, but I felt like, Okay, well, if I
attend a local church, I won't hear from him much.
And here and there, probably once a year we would
get a recording of Brian speaking. And to be completely
(36:30):
even more honest and upfront, I really didn't sit in
to listen to the messages because it was always focused
on the local church and on the East Coast. Yeah,
that's something I hear all the time. It was so
much about those interpersonal relationships, and I always wonder how
it felt just wheeling a TV screen out. That's so impersonal.
(36:52):
But I guess I'm wondering, how did you feel when
you started finding out all the stuff about Brian and
his father, that the guy who's the head of the
church had all of this stuff in his background. I
had heard about it briefly, and a lot of people
within the church and leaders and pastors kept saying like
they would be frustrating, like again, they're bringing this up again,
(37:13):
Like I thought he had already addressed this. So when
I saw that, for me, it was like, Okay, this
is interesting. I'm not sure what's happening. I started looking
into it a little bit more, and to be completely honest,
I don't find that surprising because I grew up in church.
My dad was a pastor, my uncles are pastors, close
(37:33):
family friends or pastors, and we saw a lot of things.
I unfortunately saw a lot of sexual misconduct and sexual
assault and pedophilia and never saw it come to a
legal matter. Because the church is really good at hiding it.
Now that I've been in therapy and now that I've
been learning more and as you know better, you do better.
(37:56):
I've been reaching out to some people and asking them
how are actually doing and if they want to come forward,
and that they have my full support, Like I want
to be on the better side now of being able
to share those because when I heard about them, I
was a kid. I couldn't see anything and I didn't
have any authority. But now as an adult, I want
to be part of that change. Since my trip to Sydney,
(38:19):
I've discovered that Brian and Bobby Houston's Bondie property has
been sold. Brian Houston has been preaching in the United
States and Australia, and he's contradicted a lot of the
Hillsong narrative around his departure. He says I didn't resign
because of mistakes I'd made, but because Hillsong made my
position untenable, and he says details of his mistakes were
(38:40):
made public so people's imaginations ran wild, but his perspective
wasn't reflected by the church. Brian Houston also denies that
he's an alcoholic or that he has a problem with
prescription drugs, and in the end he comes out fighting,
saying I'm flawed, I've been humbled, but I'm not living
in disgrace and my head is held high. In the
(39:03):
next episode of False Prophets, it's time to share more
of my personal story. It's all about what I wish
I would have known about Hillsong and sexuality before I
got in so deep. I thought I'd found a place
that was welcoming and affirming, but that was far from
the truth, and it cost me so much harm. And
(39:24):
I'm not the only one. A story from Hillsong's past
is still causing pain today.
So the first time I heard and saw Brian Houston,
I was in Hillsong, Phoenix for the first time, and
when it came time for the sermon to happen, they
dragged a screen onto the stage in Phoenix and they
started playing a recording of Brian speaking, and I remember
(00:25):
trying to understand what he was saying because his accent
was so thick that I was just like my face
was like frowning, like not pitting everything together. And when
I started to finally understand what he was saying, I
started to realize that he wasn't that great of a preacher.
(00:46):
It was more of a motivational speech, and he said
he was going to give us a list on how
to be a better person, for example, and he never
finished the list. He only got to the first point.
So it was hilarious to me the fact that this man,
who is like, quote unquote the big eagle within Hillsong
(01:07):
at the time, didn't preach and wasn't charismatic in comparison
to other people. So when I see him, and from
that experience moving forward, I quickly knew that he was
just a white man, a white heterosexual man who got
lucky to have the platform. He did because of his father, obviously,
but now seeing his downfall and him being removed from
(01:30):
Hillsong and the board, it seems to me like his
luck has run out. You're listening to false prophets Hillsong
the story of a mega church and its followers. I
am no m Audibe and I used to be a
part of Hillsong, but I left and now I'm telling
my story. I suppose his luck has run out in
(01:50):
a way. And this is journalist l Hardy getting the
inside story that Hillsong didn't want to tell, but just
saying his houses in Sydney, He's certainly still living a
very charmed and blessed life. He's exceptionally wealthy. He has
a beautiful mansion out in the hills. He has an
apartment on Bondai Beach, probably the best real estate in Australia.
(02:14):
He's still jetting around the world, visiting friends in Europe
and the United States. So I guess, you know, public
humiliation sounds like a pretty horrible thing to go through,
but in terms of his general circumstances, he's still got
a lot of luck on his side. I've recently returned
(02:35):
to my hometown of Sydney to take a closer look
at the Houston lifestyle. We're on our way to Brian
and Bobby Houston's house. It's in the upmarket suburb of
glen Haven, about fifteen minutes from Hillsong's headquarters. It's a
very nice, manicured suburb, but it's quiet. It's there's almost
(02:57):
an eeriness out here. There's no kids riding there by,
acts around. Feels a bit walled off and maybe that's
why the Houston's like it. It's only a few miles
from the school hall where Hillsong was started by Brian
and Bobby in the nineteen eighties with just a few followers,
but it's a world away from this lifestyle and wealth.
(03:18):
It's yeah, a little leafy, could sac there's some sort
of bushland it's looking over, but they're quite nice. Say
they're big houses. They're modern houses there. I think the
word is McMansions, but I'm not sure if that's too disparaging.
You know, some of the houses have letters spelt out
instead of the numbers. Brian's come a long way. He
was born in New Zealand and both his parents were
(03:40):
in the Salvation Army. His father Frank was a preacher too.
Lots of beautiful trees, but it's it certainly as a
well healed area and a private area, to the point
where I wonder, if you know, we do another lap
or two, that someone might come out and take down
our number plate. But one of their children, that their
younger stood, Laura, lives nearby here, so we're going to
(04:01):
go check out her place quickly as well. Laura, her
husband Peter, and her brothers Benjamin and Joel are all
part of the Hillsong Empire. It's a family affair. So
we're coming up to Ryan and Bobby Houston's house. Your
destination is on the left. I think it's just one
(04:25):
of here. She said, it's a huge gate. Does that
look like a huge gate to you? This looks like
a pretty big gate, huge brick settin better spikes. Wow,
it does look pretty grand house fit for a pre
(04:48):
checking and you can enjoy the lifestyle too, because the
house is now for sale. This is what the sales
pitch says. No expense has been bad and the sensational
property designed for a spectacular entertainer's lifestyle. For about three
million US dollars. All this can be yours, including walk
(05:09):
in wardrobes, a pool, and a hot top. We're out
the front of Brian and Bobby's house. Oh fuck, is
a coupling up than well? Some of the Houstons are
(05:31):
checking out me and my producer Sharon. But it's okay.
We're on public property, just hanging there. Are they going
checking out? Should check us out? Hey there we're diad
(05:55):
a camera. We're just recording some audio. Yeah, for a podcast. Okay,
we're having a chat to you guys. We'll have an
advo chat to you guys if you want to pardon.
She's are the best. That's Laura Peter. Yeah, he's still
(06:21):
on the board. Fuck, I reckon. I wonder if one
of the neighbors said something or how did they know
when were here? They saw it walking, but they might
have a camera. Sorry, my heart's going every miles an
hour and now yeah, no, no no, no, it's just you
know which Yeah, Um, do you see the look? I
(06:45):
don't know if you saw the look on Laura's face,
but she did. She looked filthy, did she? Yeah? She
was not happy. We just had a bit of a
(07:07):
confrontation with one of their children. They reverse the car out.
It was Laura and Peter. Laura's their their youngest stare
down and they had their kids in the car, and
they reversed up and they asked us what we were
doing here and why we had cameras and if we
were a recording. Yeah, we just just said that we
would love to speak to them. That they didn't seem
(07:27):
interested and drove off. So, yeah, that was a bit
of an interesting experience when you've been writing about people.
I'd love for them to speak with me, but I
don't think that they ever will because there's a Norwestern
business work. Okay, time to head off to hills On
(07:48):
Church and there are a few to choose from in Sydney.
We're going to an inner city one in the Waterloo area.
Write out the Century Circuit. I had a piece of
newspaper this morning with some leaked emails from the Houston
family when all of the problems are going down with
Brian being forced to resign back in March twenty two,
(08:11):
and it's so interesting how much of this stuff is
circulating in the church, and sources of mine inside and
formerly of the church. We're already messaging me at nine
o'clock this morning. It's really interesting to see just how
much this stuff spreads like wildfire, that there are a
lot of people that just really want the Houstons to
be brought back to earth. The story was about leaked
(08:33):
emails from two of the Houston children, Benjamin and Laura.
They sent the board emails on March twenty and they're
very emotional and it really I think what they really show,
which is most interesting to me, is that the Houstons
consider the church their church. It's the family firm. They
(08:54):
think that they built it from the ground up. Whereas
if you speak to a lot of current and former
Hills members, they say, no, no, no no, this is our church.
It's a community asset. We built this with our labor,
with our people, with our love, with our commitment. And
that's really at the heart of the power struggle at
the moment in the church is people saying that the
Houstons need to recognize that, you know, they were obviously
(09:16):
a huge part of its success and its growth, but
it's time for them to go. And I don't think
that any of the children certainly are seen as natural
leaders or heirs to the church. And Brian did not
have a succession plan in place. He thought he had
another good ten years or so. He's sixty seven now,
he's a very fit guy and he does not want
(09:36):
to give up control. So I certainly think that we're
going to be seeing this playing out for a long
time to come. This is a time of real jeopardy
for Hillsong. Sure it's face scandals before, but this time
it's brought down the top guy, Brian Houston, has been
forced out after an investigation into inappropriate behavior towards two women. Now,
(09:59):
for many people in Australia, Brian Houston was Hillsong and
while the Houston's plan their next move, the Hillsong board
installs an interim leader and argues about how to protect
the church and followers. Let's find out how they're feeling. Right,
then your destination will be on the least. Were at
(10:24):
Hillsong Waterloo, which is the city campus, and it's Sunday
morning and a lot of young, happy people are walking
out of the church. So we thought we'd got to
a few of them and have a word. I we're
just making a podcast about the church and we'd sort
of want to tell both sides. So we're just wondering
a few guys ago, no oay to be honest, that's
(10:47):
the kind of response I think we're going to get.
You just don't get many people who still go to
Hillsong talking about it. There's certainly a perception there's been
fed to them for many years that the media is
always telling the wrong story and he has always been
against the church and the Houstons, and that the media
only cares about the money. We're just wondering us about
(11:07):
the church, and we're trying to tell both sides. So
we just want to know what you love about your
church everything? Sorry, but what's everything community? I attribute everything
good in my life to this church. I've been born
in the church. I've been there since I was a
little kid, and I love it. It's well all my
friends are some of my families. I love worship, I
(11:29):
love the community. I love going to dinner Sunday night
with church. I love being able to lead kids on
their journey on Fridays as a youth leader. It's one
of the most fulfilling things in the Taiwer. You come
here and you might be broken, you might not feel
like you have a place in this crazy world. You
come here and everyone's really welcoming. They welcome you with
(11:52):
open arms. They don't judge you for you know, what
you've done. Do you feel that her son gets a
bit of a rough ride in the media. Church is
not a place of perfect people at all, Like, I
don't think anyone's claiming that or you know, and they
think like we're just imperfect people. Yeah. I think the
(12:12):
main thing is that other community is fantastic. Everyone's you know,
loves on each other and obviously Christians, and so we
find it's a really good place to worship, full of
authenticity and genuine people. A people use the word community
a lot, and I'm really interested in that concept of
what that means in relation to the church. Well, I think, well,
(12:35):
this is a good example. This is Keith. We met
him at church and we see each other every week
and we basically hang out not just that church for us,
at a church as well. So we're talking about community,
we're talking about that sense of family. So yeah, that's
gonna say. It does really feel like family because we
have so many new people coming here all the time,
and we'll welcome a lot of new people and it's
(12:57):
just an ever growing community and family. It's something that's
really different. It's just grow so much so and we'll
welcome everyone from the new bonds to like people who
are in their eighties or hundreds or whatever. So yeah,
we're really happy to have everyone here. Just become part
of this awesome family. Hilson has been given a bit
of a rough trott media lately. How do you guys
(13:18):
feel about that. It's not really lately, It's been for
as long as I've known living in Sydney. I think
the way that we navigates we have a personal experience
of hell Song and we don't It's not like based
on what people have said or what we've read. It's
actually our own personal experience and nothing can really trump that.
The media. Yeah, yeah, it's sometimes one person's perspective. And
(13:44):
we have experienced the leadership here. We know personally some
of the leaders and the pastors and we've been mentored
by them and we absolutely adore them. And a lot
of it comes down to our faith and our personal
walk with God, and that's the lens that we use
to view things like scrutiny and stuff. In the church.
Everything's being shaken, but this is I think a small
(14:08):
part of what's in the long term. So we believe
that we're just gonna continue to grow, continue to do
what we need to do. I really enjoyed speaking to
Keith and his friends just now because for me, they're
really typical Hillsong is. They're aware of the issues that
they're not necessarily shying away from them, but they're able
(14:28):
to square it by saying that humans are imperfect, that
we're all sinners before God, that God is the only
one that's perfect. Ultimately, what we seem to keep coming
back to why people are saying in the church is
they just like the sense of community. You'll still find
a lot of people now saying, well, it's our church,
it's not the Houston's Church. A lot of people Brian
is a figure that's on the TV. Sometimes their connection
(14:49):
is much more deep and real within the church. The
notable thing from when I went inside is how much
the attendances have dropped from when I was there in January.
Still very much the same crowd representative of the local area,
lots of young people, but attendances would be down at
least half or two thirds on the amount of people
that I saw in January. Pretty significant. It's difficult to
(15:11):
say for sure, but considering I've been told that attendances
are down at a lot of the places. I think
it's pretty safe to assume that attendances are down here,
and the reason is the scandal, the embarrassment. Maybe some
people are just finding new churches. Hillsong has a lot
of imitators and sometimes it's just easier to go to
a different church. Just to give you a sense of
(15:32):
the term oil that went on behind the scenes, there
were real divisions about whether Brian Houston should be forced
out of the church he found it. He has loyal
supporters as well as critics. I've seen a letter that
Hillsong's hate of people and development. John Mays wrote to
the board just before Brian was sacked. He described Brian
as a man who saw himself as beyond disciplinary boundaries
(15:55):
and normal societal expectations. He dismissed an investigation into Brian's
behavior as dribble. Finally, he calls on the board to
consider removing Brian permanently from his position in Hillsong along
with his wife. Within days that happens, No wonder. Security
guards outside the church are feeling nervous about journalists. Hey, hey,
(16:19):
how are you going to get them on the team. Yeah,
I heard that you're doing there some sort of reporting.
They're just doing box pops style. That's just as people
that's what they think she's doing. She's doing a voice
her and then we ask people what they've seen. So yeah,
there's no filming. No, no, they're just audio. Yeah, just audio. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(16:42):
thank you. Isaac from the venue team came out. They
have a lot of volunteers in different positions, and they
certainly have a production and venue teams and there he
certainly looks like the head of security and the security
gardment and told him that I had to look around.
They clearly don't want us in there. And you know,
we're outside in public property, so that's fine. And they
(17:03):
just said that we can't take photos inside because they
are children around. But yeah, they're clearly not chilled by
us being here. A lot of Hillsong insiders won't talk publicly,
but one is so angry about the investigation into Brian
that she decided to speak out. Details of his behavior
are pretty sketchy. The most recent incident centers on forty
(17:26):
minutes Brian spent in a woman's hotel room. He says
he can't remember what happened, but he does say that
he'd been taking pills and booze. My contact feels fobbed
off by the church, but talking publicly would cause a
rift in the community and in her family, so her
words are spoken by an actor. It kind of brought
a whole level of shock into learning who these people
(17:49):
really are. And maybe this is the tip of the
iceberg of what we've been fed for copious amounts of years.
So when all this other stuff came out, it was like, ah, okay,
it all brings it back to what's this narcissist behavior
the whole time? And I look back, I'm like, literally
in horror. It was great at the beginning, but when
(18:11):
did it turn from being about people to about you
and your needs being met and your fame and your
celebrity status. And I think what it's turned into is, Yeah,
it's disgusting, disgusting. I don't think they will come back
to Hillsong Church as it is. I think they will
(18:32):
relaunch their careers somehow. If they ever come back, I'm
leaving because then it's all a joke. Monday Beach is
the iconic picture of Sydney. It's sunshine, beautiful people, everyone's
(18:52):
in in the ocean, surfing, going for a run with
their dog along the promenades, people doing yoga and meditating,
sitting outdoors at the cafes. It's a real place to
see and be seeing and it's the lifestyle capital of Sydney.
And needless to say, property here is pretty expensive. I've
come to Bondai because it's the second home of Brian
(19:14):
and Bobby Houston, and it's kind of emblematic of everything
that's gone wrong with the church. Their apartment is in
a prime real estate position, right on the south end
of the beach. They'd probably be able to throw from
their curtains and watch the beach each morning. The property's
worth around two million US and for a second home,
that's quite a lot of money. And it's really a
(19:36):
long way from what the church started out as and
from what people who have given so much to the
church over the years feel. They felt that they're building
a community, that they're building a place to do good
in the world. They are absolute mega celebrities within the
Christian pastor circle, particularly in the US, because they change
the business model. They made it okay to be this brand,
(19:56):
and so many preachers and churches around the world wanted
to to emulate that. A number of them brought into
the Hillsong umbrella where they give you a five percent
of all their profits to the overarching Hillsong Church to
get the branding, to get the training to be more
like Brian and Bobby. So even in parts of Africa
and South America, whether a Hillsong branches now, they're throwing
(20:16):
huge numbers of congregants because people feel as though they're
part of something bigger. It's not just the small local church.
They felt as though they were part of a big
global brand. And Brian and Bobby have always been the happy, friendly,
good looking, suave faces of US. Dramatic allegations have been
leveled tonight against Hillsong. The mega church is accused of
(20:36):
breaking Australian law by sending millions of dollars overseas and
then august rating an elaborate cover up. On August the twelfth,
a statement of claim was filed in the courts in
Australia with an employee of Hillsong's finance department. And this
is just dynamite. The one thing that anyone that's looked
into Hillsong over the last ten twenty years has been
(20:58):
trying to find out is how much money is there
and where's it going? And this is the closest that
we've gotten yet to looking at Hillsong's books. The employee
made a number of complaints about the way that they
were handling transferring money between different Hillsong entities and different
Hillsong countries, and this employee is said to have downloaded
(21:21):
some forty thousand documents. Court documents claim church leaders used
tax free money for large cash gifts to Hillsong's founder
and his family. So some of the other interesting things
that have come out of it, firstly the sums of
money that are being moved around, and this is charity
money that people have given over in good faith. What's
(21:41):
really interesting to me as a journalist is knowing the
lawyer that's taken on her case is a very high
profile lawyer that's affiliated with the labor movement in Australia
so often takes on high profile cases to embarrass big
corporations and to set precedents, and so him taking on
this case really makes me think that they want to
(22:03):
flush these documents out of Hillsong, and that's obviously really
exciting for someone like me. I'm Josh Bornstein. I'm the
head of employment law at Maurice Blackburn. I've represented many
whistleblowers across public and private sector over many years. Josh
Bornsteen is representing Natalie Moses. She's the Hillsong whistleblower. It's
(22:23):
important to remember the court is being asked to decide
an employment or a fair work case. The court is
not being asked to investigate Hillsong's finances. It has to
decide whether Natalie Moses was treated unfairly by her employer, Hillsong.
The cases about concerns Natalie Moses had about Hillsong and
its finances, and whether her employment was terminated because she
(22:45):
raised those concerns or for some other reason. It's the
first time I've represented a whistleblower in a religious institution.
I've tended to represent them either in big private sector
companies or sometimes government bodies, but this is the first
time I'm in a religious setting that whistleblowers come to
see me. Natalie Moses, like many whistleblowers, is someone with
(23:07):
a very strong sense of ethics, strong laural code, who
is herself quite religious, and who has worked in governance
and financial management roles, if I can put it that way,
in Hillsong for some years, like many other whistleblower cases,
these cases have a very similar trajectory. She has been
(23:27):
raising concerns with progressive intensity or incrementally increasing the way
in which she has raised concerns about financial matters, in
particular governance compliance with corporations law, tax law, charity's law
within a very complex financial empire that Hillsong is, and
(23:49):
the matters continue to escalate to the point of having
open disagreement with very senior executives within Hillsong, and then,
in another familiar twist, suddenly her access to information was
cut off and she was under a disciplinary investigation allegedly
(24:09):
because of accessing documents, and was fearful that she was
about to be sacked, and that's when she contacted me.
Whether the Hillsong documents are made public depends on whether
the case ever comes to court, and many cases like
this are settled out of court. So Natalie Moses's claims
(24:30):
have not been tested and Hillsong disputes them. He's Josh
Bondstein again talking about Miss moses concerns. This is a
very complicated financial empire with multiple entities across the world,
some with charitable status, which received tax deductible donations and
are required to comply with relevant legislative standards in Australia.
(24:55):
So there are concerns that companies within the Hillsong Empire
are not complying with corporations law, particularly about requirements that
the law imposes when you transfer money from Australia overseas.
There are concerns that Hillsong is encouraging followers to donate
(25:16):
to them on the basis that their donations will be
for tax deductible purposes, but then using that money in
a manner that's not properly tax deductible. There are concerns
that the I think eighteen entities within the Hillsong Empire
that have charitable status are not complying with legislative requirements
(25:38):
for charities in Australia. There's very serious concerns that the
Charities Regulator, which has commenced and inquiry into some of
the Hillsong entities, is not being provided with accurate information
in response to its questions, which is a pretty serious matter.
There's concerns that the tax laws not being complied with.
There's concerns about excessive gifts, remuneration, unusual arrangements, about designating
(26:05):
musicians as pastors of the church, paying them significant salaries
which is at least in part text deductible at the
same time as they are receiving sometimes up to millions
of dollars in royalties. There's just an enormous range of
complex issues that Natalie Moses has raised in this proceeding.
(26:26):
Hillsong is robustly defending the case. We invited the church
to take part in this series and it did not
take up the offer. Hillsong filed its defense on the
fourteenth of October twenty twenty two and denies many of
moses allegations. In its defense, the church denies Natalie moses
central claim that she was unfairly suspended. Hillsong says she
(26:48):
breached its I policy and acted outside the scope of
her role, including by downloading forty thousand documents over a weekend,
many of them confidential, and then deleting her scent and
leated items when called into a meeting with the HR
staff member. And on the accusations about its finances, Hillsong
denies it deceived the Australian Charities Regulator and It denies
(27:11):
that miss Moses was ever asked to help lie to
the regulator. Hillsong says Miss Moses was reassured that if
any issues were identified as part of the regulators investigation,
then Hillsong would move to correct the issue proactively. Hillsong
also denies claims tax free money was used for cash
gifts to Brian Houston and his family, or that it
(27:32):
represented to followers that certain donations were tax seductible and
then use that money for activities that were not tax seductible.
The church says an independent audit found that the Hillsong
Foundation Trust has not breached its own trust seed or
charity legislation. Hillsong also denies that it has not provided
accurate information to the charity regulator, or that it breached
(27:55):
tax law by paying musicians as if they were passes
and therefore of boyd at tax liability, and on the
accusations that the church breached rules with payments made to
overseas entities. In its defense, Hillsong says that it's international
operations did not contravene the external conduct standards which govern
Howard registered charity has to manage its activities outside of Australia. So,
(28:22):
just to recap, the bombshell went off in August, only
five months after Brian Houston's exit in disgrace. So Hillsong
is still reeling when my contact inside the church gets
in touch again as the Natalie Moses story breaks. When
I saw the article, I guess my heart has gone
straight out to Miss Moses. I feel that she is
(28:44):
what we in the church used to say, brave women
run in my family. Well, I'll tell you what I
think that is a definition of a brave woman. She's
probably lost her job, she's probably been excluded. It doesn't
read to me like she was trying to undermine her
boss and do things against the flow. I feel like
she was trying to protect the church and she came
(29:07):
across as being from a place of we need to
be doing the absolute by the book. And while the
new leadership of Hillsong is dealing with the Moses case,
there are still divisions over the way that Brian Houston
left the church. My contact is critical of the Houston leadership,
but other people are still loyal to Brian and Bobby.
I'm still not attending church in person. I'll watch online.
(29:29):
I've got friends who are in the same camp as me,
a lot of friends. And then I've got people who
I'm observing who are the sheep following the Houstons who
are actually thought better off. So there's this weird dynamic
of people who are wanting to align with the Houstons
and not seeing that they were the very biggest problem
we had. I think there's a huge camp of we
(29:50):
see exactly what's going on, and we don't know what
to do with this shit, which is kind of where
I'm at. And then I think there are these sheeples who,
oh my god, Brian and Bobby, we love you forever.
When it first came out, it was like a real
massive shock, traumatic shock to the system because you believed
(30:10):
in these people, You supported these people, poured megabucks into
the church personally, to find out it's all a fass. Really,
it's all a fass. It's basically a fass. It feels
like it's been a generating money system for the Houston family.
Was any of this really about the church? Because I'm
finding that hard to join those dots. It feels like
(30:32):
it's all about them. So, yeah, where's the humility and
the grace in this there's none which tells me that
all along. Maybe they started off thirty nine years ago
with the right intentions, but somewhere along the line it
became about them, their power, their reputation, and yeah, I
(30:52):
find that conflicting, very conflicting. The man dealing with the
fallout is past the fil Duel, Hillsong's interim leader. He's
a very different character from the big Eagle Brian Houston.
He's more low key and he doesn't have Brian Houston's
political connections. So there we go. Thank you, Yes, thank you.
(31:24):
So we're heading up to a sausage sizzle, which is
known as democracy sausage. So polling places in Australia are
almost always schools and traditionally they're allowed to hosts of
fundraiser for their school at the same time. So for
a dollar or two you get a sausage on a
barbecue in a bit of bread. This is federal election
day in Australia. Hillsong under Brian Houston had friends in
(31:47):
very high places. Prime Minister Scott Morrison name checked him
when he was first elected and remained a supporter for
many years. Scott Morrison didn't attend Hillsong Church but he
was a good friend of Brian's. In fact, he helped
him get a photo up at the White House with
President Trump. It's a very Australian tradition that everyone loves
(32:07):
doing on the day and it's um yeah, it's part
of the reason voting is compulsory here, so you've got
to come along and wait in line for five or
ten minutes. So it's a perk of the obligation. I suppose, okay,
here you go, and as it turns out, there's a
spare half, so if you give it back to me,
(32:28):
pop that. I don't know how we ended up with spirit.
Scott Morrison lost this election and the new government has
announced inquiries into a number of projects with links to Hillsinger. Today,
yet I'm a I'm a vegetarian, so it's not really
my thing. But the most serious test yet for Brian
Houston personally is coming. It links back to his past
(32:51):
and to his late father, Frank Houston. Do you wish
to take the oath or the affirmation? Could you raise
the Bible in your right hand please and repeat after me.
I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God
(33:12):
that the evidence I shall give the evidence I shall
give in this Royal Commission, In this Royal Commission shall
be the truth. Shall be the truth, the whole truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and nothing
but the truth. This is Brian Houston giving evidence to
a public inquiry known as a Royal Commission hearing in
two thousand and fourteen. It's looking into allegations of child
(33:33):
abuse and you've prepared a statement for the Royal Commission,
dated the twenty eighth of September twenty fourteen. Yes, are
there any changes you wish to make that state? Do
you say it truly could correct for us of your knowledge? Yes,
I tender the statement eighteen zero zero nine. The hearing
her that allegations emerged in nineteen ninety nine that Frank
(33:55):
Houston sexually abused a child in the nineteen seventies. Brian
Houston was the National President of the Assemblies of God
in Australia at the time, a powerful organization that oversaw
many churches in Australia, including Hillsong. Brian Houston confronted his father,
who confessed to the abuse. So my father retired in
(34:17):
May nineteen ninety nine from senior pastor role at the time,
it seemed very rushed that he suddenly asked me if
I would take on the church. And now with hindsight,
I think we know some of the reasons why that is.
After hearing Brian Houston's evidence, the commissioners decided that he
and the National Executive of Assemblies of God did not
(34:38):
refer the allegations against Frank Houston to police. They decided
that Brian had a conflict of interests. He has always
argued that the victim did not want the abuse reported
to police. After a two year investigation, in twenty twenty one,
police charged Brian Houston with concealing child abuse. Brian Houston
has always vehemently denied the charges. It all seems a
(35:02):
long way from the church that Naomi became a part
of in Boston, and these shadows from the past sometimes
seem remote to Hillsong followers in Australia today. But what
we have to remember is this case is part of
a much bigger picture. It's part of a massive undertaking
in Australia to examine abuses of the past and try
to bring some sort of justice. It's so interesting to
(35:25):
hear your first impressions of Brian because coming from Australia,
it was always Brian Houston's Hillsong, So it's interesting to
hear that in America it wasn't so much to do
with the Houston family. I'm really interested. I guess that.
You know, did you sort of look into Hillsong at
all before you joined or was it just getting caught
up in the way that it made you feel once
(35:46):
you were in that room and finding a new home
as they call it. No, I did not look into
it beforehand, because yes, I did get caught up in
the feel and the look of it. I knew that
Hillsong had come from Australia, but that was pretty much it.
I didn't really care too much to look deeper. When
(36:08):
I first heard of Brian and heard him speak at
Hillsong Phoenix in the recording, it kind of seemed weird
to me, but I felt like, Okay, well, if I
attend a local church, I won't hear from him much.
And here and there, probably once a year we would
get a recording of Brian speaking. And to be completely
(36:30):
even more honest and upfront, I really didn't sit in
to listen to the messages because it was always focused
on the local church and on the East Coast. Yeah,
that's something I hear all the time. It was so
much about those interpersonal relationships, and I always wonder how
it felt just wheeling a TV screen out. That's so impersonal.
(36:52):
But I guess I'm wondering, how did you feel when
you started finding out all the stuff about Brian and
his father, that the guy who's the head of the
church had all of this stuff in his background. I
had heard about it briefly, and a lot of people
within the church and leaders and pastors kept saying like
they would be frustrating, like again, they're bringing this up again,
(37:13):
Like I thought he had already addressed this. So when
I saw that, for me, it was like, Okay, this
is interesting. I'm not sure what's happening. I started looking
into it a little bit more, and to be completely honest,
I don't find that surprising because I grew up in church.
My dad was a pastor, my uncles are pastors, close
(37:33):
family friends or pastors, and we saw a lot of things.
I unfortunately saw a lot of sexual misconduct and sexual
assault and pedophilia and never saw it come to a
legal matter. Because the church is really good at hiding it.
Now that I've been in therapy and now that I've
been learning more and as you know better, you do better.
(37:56):
I've been reaching out to some people and asking them
how are actually doing and if they want to come forward,
and that they have my full support, Like I want
to be on the better side now of being able
to share those because when I heard about them, I
was a kid. I couldn't see anything and I didn't
have any authority. But now as an adult, I want
to be part of that change. Since my trip to Sydney,
(38:19):
I've discovered that Brian and Bobby Houston's Bondie property has
been sold. Brian Houston has been preaching in the United
States and Australia, and he's contradicted a lot of the
Hillsong narrative around his departure. He says I didn't resign
because of mistakes I'd made, but because Hillsong made my
position untenable, and he says details of his mistakes were
(38:40):
made public so people's imaginations ran wild, but his perspective
wasn't reflected by the church. Brian Houston also denies that
he's an alcoholic or that he has a problem with
prescription drugs, and in the end he comes out fighting,
saying I'm flawed, I've been humbled, but I'm not living
in disgrace and my head is held high. In the
(39:03):
next episode of False Prophets, it's time to share more
of my personal story. It's all about what I wish
I would have known about Hillsong and sexuality before I
got in so deep. I thought I'd found a place
that was welcoming and affirming, but that was far from
the truth, and it cost me so much harm. And
(39:24):
I'm not the only one. A story from Hillsong's past
is still causing pain today.
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