February 2, 2023 • 33 mins
“How could you fall for that?” Noemi Uribe explains why the Hillsong brand was so seductive. It’s church - but not typical church. Noemi takes us into the world of Hillsong in a Boston night club. Services have a concert vibe, the sermons are upbeat, it’s not boring or judgmental. Millions loved the Hillsong way of doing God and turned it into a mega church.
Journalist and writer Elle Hardy has been studying the rise of Pentecostalism and the Hillsong phenomenon for several years. She breaks down the winning formula that is now replicated across the globe. And Elle and Noemi start to trace where things went wrong at Hillsong, as star preachers and mega egos create a toxic mess.
False Profits: Hillsong is produced by Storyglass for iHeartRadio
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It really a lures you in. As a young adult,
I felt like a part of something for the first time.
This is false Prophets, the story of Hillsong. It's a
story of how a small church in Australia grew into
a mega church. It's a lesson in how to make
church cool and turn religion into a brand. It's a
(00:20):
lesson in power, money, and abuse. Thousands of people say
Hillsong brought them to Jesus, but Hillsong brought me to
a very dark place. In this series, I've had access
to information Hillsong never wanted the public to see, and
access to people prepared to speak out false prophets. Dived
(00:41):
into a world of star preachers, and we investigate Hillsong's wealth.
But most of all, these podcasts are about people who
believed in a church that said welcome home. I was
a part of Hillsong Church, but I left and now
I'm telling my story. My name is no Emmy. My
(01:03):
last name is pronounced d bit. I'm twenty six years old.
I live in Boston, Massachusetts. The biggest things you need
to know are I was born in Arizona, moved to
Mexico when I was eleven, years old, and I moved
back to the US when I was sixteen. When I
(01:23):
speak in Spanish, it's definitely my Mexican side comes out,
and that's the best way for me to describe it.
But it's more of a louder person that loves to
be dancing. And here's a small beat, even from a
car alarm, and I will start dancing to that. Behind me,
(01:45):
Um is my dog, Teddy. He's like licking himself and
himself's nasty. He is my service dog and he will
be with us on the show. You might hear him
Um a little bit as we're recording. Sorry, Eddy Eda.
(02:07):
So I adopted Teddy almost three years ago. Two and
a half years ago, right after I left Hill Song,
my therapist recommended me getting an emotional support animal. He
believed that would be really helpful to distract my brain
from thinking too much and going down spirals and focusing
on taking care of something. I'm a caregiver. I love
(02:28):
taking care of people, and so if I could take
care of an animal, that was like the best way possible.
And since I'm a dog person, I looked for a
dog and I found Teddy. He's a Shitsu mix eighteen pounds,
little bundle of joy. He's eleven years old, but he
can be quite the character. Sometimes there'll be moments ready
(02:50):
to simple way to make him stop. The one thing
I forgot is I have a squeaky chair. Can you
hear it now? And this is journalist Hardy getting the
inside story that Hillsong wasn't eager to tell. Should I
get something that isn't squeaky? L has close contacts at
the heart of the organization, and she'll be revealing a
(03:10):
lot of things that Hillsong would prefer didn't become public.
But first, here's what you need to know about Hillsong.
It started almost forty years ago in Australia. It's now
spread to more than thirty countries, and it turns over
millions and millions of dollars. So I want to get
(03:31):
a better understanding of what your definition of Hillsong is
because I obviously have my own from my own experience,
but I want to hear from you. I think that
Hillsong is a lating light of the global Pentecostal movement.
Even though it now defines itself as nondenominational, it is
(03:51):
still part of this global Pentecostal movement, which is the
fastest growing religion in the world. There's about six hundred
million believe as worldwide and counting. And what Hillsong did
amazingly well was it sort of made itself the pop
culture arm of this movement. It made itself the lighter touch.
It made itself this big city place for for new
(04:12):
people that were arriving. You know, maybe you grew up
in a small town in Arizona, or maybe you grew
up somewhere overseas and you get to a big city
and you feel loss and a bit lonely and you
find this church and it's so welcoming and they played
this great music and everyone's young and cool and diverse
(04:32):
and all the things that you think about when you
moved to a big city and being a part of
that life. And that's what Hillsong did amazingly well. So
it was never blood and thunder, anti abortion, all that
kind of stuff. You were never really getting that on
the outside. And that's what Hillsong has done so well.
But I think for me, really, yeah, Hillsong is is
(04:53):
about the music. When you think about its money and
its cultural power. It was pioneering and packaging. Are this
really pop friendly music, grant that other churches around the
world but having to play to stop their congregations walking
out the door. That's so true for many people. We
know the music, and I know as a pastor's kid
(05:14):
from a traditional Pentecostal background, Hillsong felt very different to me,
But I didn't know much about the man who started
it all, Brian Houston, or Hillsong's history or theology. It
was just so popular and it was giving people something
in the here and now as well as the ever after,
and it was really showing the way that you could
be a Christian in the modern world. Thank you for
(05:35):
sharing that, because as someone who is from Arizona and
you gave that a little explanation. Um, I was coming
to a bigger city like Boston, hill Song was something
that was very inviting and welcoming into this big new
city experience, and I didn't hear a lot about that.
Like abortion or LGBTQ policies, or like different beliefs, they
(05:58):
are very mainstream with the other churches. So to hear
you say that is very validating, and I'm sure it's
validating for other folks listening as well. From my experience
and my perspective, I would see Hillsong as a dumpster
fire because it's burning from the inside. I tried staying
(06:19):
there longer to help change it as someone who was
a volunteer and a leader there, but through my own experience,
it just became too much and it would have taken
my life if I would have stayed a minute longer.
And now they've been doing their own chaos and setting
their own fires with their own pr Hillsong Church has
(06:42):
been accused of breaking Australian laws by sending money overseas
to avoid scrutiny. A whistleblower, Sue hill Song has alleged
to make a church moved millions of dollars through overseas
entity to avoid scrutinate for Australia's charity regulator has launched
an investigation into hills Church. Documents claim church leaders use
(07:03):
tax free money the large cash gifts to hill Songs
founder and his family. Hillsong founder Brian Houston denies concealing
child abuse. Mega church hit with sexual assault lawsuit by students.
Justin Bieber's pastor, Carl Lentz, fired for moral failures. Hillsong
shuts down Dallas campus following reports pastors misused funds. Hill
(07:25):
Songs Brian Houston resigns from megachurch after internal investigations found
he engaged in inappropriate conduct. That's a long list of scandals,
but the list of people you need to know is
actually really short. We mentioned Hillsong's founder and leader, Brian Houston.
He resigned in March of two. There's also his wife, Bobby,
(07:49):
and their kids. They all had key roles in the
family business, some of them still do. And another name
you'll hear about the star preacher Carl Lentz, famous for
hanging out with Justin Babel. He was sacked in twenties
twenty for what Hillsong called moral failings after he admitted
to cheating on his wife. Some inside is speculate carl
(08:11):
It's is downfall was actually orchestrated by the Hillsong leadership
itself and someone else who's in my story. Josh Comes
and his wife Leona. Josh was initially a part of
Hillsong New York and then became lead campus pastor in Boston.
The church i attended, Hillsong is a complex global network
of legal entities and trying to unravel them as tough,
(08:33):
but its message is simple. Everyone is welcome. But for me,
behind that message was the system I believe exploited me
as a volunteer, a system that didn't affirm me as
a queer person, and a church that left me feeling
spiritually abused. And I'm not the only one with the story.
This series is all about people like Megan Oludhara, Andrew,
(08:57):
Janice and Tiff. I was introduced by two friends that
I went to high school with, and they introduced men
a whole song and um that first day is the
date that I have tattooed on my collar bone. It
really alurres you in as a young adult. I felt
like a part of something for the first time. It
(09:20):
looked and felt different from the traditional church that I
grew up in at a bar Monday through Saturday, the
place that the church was held at at the time.
The first time I went Irvan Plaza. It's a bar,
it's a concert hall, it appears unconventional, but at the
court it's a Pentecostal church. I felt like I was
(09:40):
building God's church and I felt included and it felt
like a family. I get why Hillsong was such a
compelling proposition for that thirteen year old kid that walked
through those doors. I look back at my twenty year
old self, the brave one who, even in that intoxication
of hills Song, backed himself to leave. Even while we
(10:06):
were attending, I remember sometimes looking around and being like,
what the fund did I get myself into? On the
back end, looking at it's like manipulation, right, But at
that time it really felt special and it felt like
we were doing something awesome, and I felt like I
was welcoming people home like that was what we were
supposed to be doing. Hillsong is a major dumpster fire.
(10:28):
The one thing I don't miss about Hillsong is microaggressions.
I would like hill Song to stop existing, but even
more than that, I would like for it to account
for what it's done. It's really easy to get to
(10:51):
the point where you can say, oh, well, how did
you fall for that? That was easy to fall for.
I would never fall for something like that. But the
reality it is that we do every day. We fall
for a lot of things, and some things are worse
than others. And that's the feeling that I want you
to sit with, to be able to understand how evangelical
(11:13):
Christianity and honing it down to Hillsong itself can be dangerous,
and it was dangerous for a lot of us, and
we left, and we're here telling our stories. In this
series is all about getting answers from Hillsong. We each
have a different experience. Some people left recently, some years ago,
some people have talked to us on tape, and some anonymously.
(11:37):
But the thing we all fell for was a great cell.
For me, it was in a Boston nightclub which hosted
a gate club in its basement during the week that
turned out to be ironic. So you get to Royal,
it's a nightclub, and you get to the front door
(11:58):
and there is usually a line, a line out the door,
which is already feeling like concert vibe, like why are
there people waiting outside in the line of a church.
So the host team would often be talking to people
in the line, pending them water or some doughnut holes,
so different little things to just keep them interacting. And
(12:19):
they would have signs that said welcome home, you belong,
Welcome to church. The second spot they would encounter would
be the welcome lounge, and then the welcome lounge. There
was like a merch table, so areas where you could
buy Brian and Bobby's book or a T shirt or
an album of either one of the bands. There was
(12:42):
like secular music sometimes playing, or sometimes they played Hillsong music.
So it's like they were trying to create this very
different vibe. We're not like every other church. They kind
of wanted to chill things down. You're led into the
main service area and it's dark here, and there's the
lights are dim, and there's lights that are on which
(13:06):
are like blue and purple and red, so very different
from your regular charge that just has all the lights on.
Then they would have a screen up in the front
of really big screen that would have announcements like how
to get connected to a connect group, how to give
for the service, and how to give your offering. You
could either text it, go on the app on the
(13:28):
Hillsong app, you can go online, or you can give
cash or in an envelope. So there is different ways
they were making it really easy for you to give
money wor should you. The worship should only last twenty
minutes and I know this because as part of the
(13:49):
events team, I had to do a run sheet. If
they went over they could get in trouble with higher ups.
For me, it felt like it was respectful of people's time.
But now that I looked at it's very much of
production where it's meticulously done minute by minute and like
control to the second I worship you. How do you
(14:17):
transform a real into a church? It's the question that
a lot of people would ask. Uh. Someone would get
there at five am. Uh, there was already cleaners from
the venue who would be cleaning out because on Saturday nights,
obviously the club had been going and you know, people
(14:38):
were partying in there and drinking. Uh. So on Sunday
mornings around four or five o'clock in the morning, that'd
be people cleaning from the venue, and some people from
from Hillsong would show up, like from Target or like
a store. We would buy black sheets like bed sheets,
and we would use those and cover up an a
(15:00):
t M with a black sheet and tape it with
UH with black tape, and so that way you couldn't
see as you were walking in. It blended into the
walls that were painted black. And they wanted to to
cover a t M s because they said they didn't
want to be uh money centered or for people to
feel like they had to like take up money and
(15:21):
take out cash. Um. They wanted to be a little
bit more subtle about that money aspect. And while they
were doing all of this, the venue was mopping cleaning
the bathrooms. But there was still that smell of alcohol
and sometimes the floors would be a little sticky and
as you're walking you can hear like the sticky shoes
like on the floor. Um. So it was really nasty
(15:45):
and like grungy, but you were doing church and as
a volunteer, it really felt fun because you interacted with
the other volunteers. Looking back, I'm like ill, like I
would never sit on any couch or chair at Royal
because it was disgusting. It's probably the reality of Hillsog
(16:06):
of they're sticky floors and there's grungy carpets everywhere. I
remember having to grab there's air fresheners. I would grab
two and I would start spraying them with my arms open,
one on each arm, and I would just circle so
that we could get the air freshener to cover the
smell of alcohol and cigarette. I feel like the air
(16:27):
freshener is a metaphor for Hillsong's PR team because they're
constantly trying to cover for the mess and the drama
that's happening in the and all the accusations that are
coming out. And the PR team for Hillsong is definitely
the air freshener that is not doing a great job
because you could still see through it. And that's basically
what the air freshener was at Hillsog Boston. From my
(16:53):
own personal experience, I've seen how Hillsong handles people who
criticize them, um for like tweeting, to putting out statements,
to saying things on a Sunday service. But what is
that like for you as a journalist? Like, how do
they quote unquote attack you or try to discredit you?
(17:14):
Are you on the wall of shame? Do you know
if you're on the Hillsome Wall of shame? Um, I
don't know what that means. Can you tell me a
little bit more of that? So so you know how
they have security services at all of their at their services,
They've got their own in house security team and the
head of security sits in with the TV monitoring and
they have pictures up of people who aren't allowed in.
You know, it might just be some guy on the
(17:35):
street who's gone in and cause trouble before. But it
is often a lot of ex hill songers who might
have appeared in things, or people who have been told
to leave the church and aren't welcome back. So there
is apparently a wall of shame with pictures of troublemakers
and people who aren't welcome on the wall. So I
do wonder if you're on it. Probably here in in
Boston and in New York I could see that. I
(17:58):
can imagine. I'm just pointed that I don't think I'm
on it because when we were recording out in Sydney
a few months ago and got sprung by the Houstons
out the front of their house and then had to
go to church that evening, I was I was speaking.
I was really nervous that something was going to happen,
because I have a source who has worked high up
(18:18):
insecurity in Sydney and who told me the best entrance
to go through to avoid detection who might be looking
at me and when, and just sailed through the front door.
But they certainly know who I am. I have sources
within quite high levels of the church who are still
there at the moment, who reached out to me, who
a broadly very anti Brian Houston. But I have had
(18:40):
some people within the church reach out to me to
put some other sides the story, but they haven't really
given me any grief. I haven't had any defamation threats
or anything like that, and I'm surprised that they've never
issued a threat. I mean, they detest the media, Brian,
even in the very early days. You know, there's recordings
of him saying that the media is always against us.
(19:02):
They've always been looked at very suspiciously in Australia. Part
of the movement to the US was, I think, you know,
part of being accepted and understood a lot more than
they were in Australia. From the very beginning. Australian media
and public in general were just very skeptical. We don't
really practice faith like that. We don't do the prosperity
Gospels stuff. There endless optimism, the music, the big global brand,
(19:26):
the big shiny services. The Australians were just always very
suspicious of that. You know, he's on record as saying
the media is only ever interested in the money. They
don't care about the good that we do. There are
some good people that work in city Care and things
like that. Who do do some good outreach and charity
work and things like that. But you can't have it
all one way. When you're turning over just obscene amounts
(19:48):
of money for a religious organization, people are going to
ask more questions. Yeah, I think there can. And I
like one point, you say that there's good people within,
and I will never deny that there are good, genuine
people within. The system itself is shitty. The system itself
is not good, and that's what makes the difference. There
(20:10):
could be good people within a bad system. I am
Janice Legata. I like to say I was born in California,
but born for New York. New York is is New York.
And so if you hear something we need to do
something here, let me know, because I it's it's white
(20:30):
noise to me. Janice was there at the start of
Hill Song USA in New York City in twenty times.
She's a really big part of my story and a
powerful voice for some of the people who have left
the song. I am a writer, a fighter, and a
matron saint of cats. So no Emmy and I as
(20:55):
of yet have not met in person, but I mean
I feel like I'm at least partially responsible for her
experience in the sense that I partially responsible for the existence,
maybe not the existence of Hillsong Boston, but definitely of
(21:15):
Josh Coimes being the pastor and the leader over there.
As you know, Josh Comes is someone I I've known
since two thousand five. He and I were at Hillsong
College at the same time. We're in the same little
morning chapel leadership group. You know, his story and mine. Honestly,
(21:39):
it's a it's a perfect encapsulation of the Hillsong experience.
Because Josh Comes is straight, white male, his trajectory from
Hillsong College was very different from mine, even though we
just ended up in a lot of the same places,
from the beginning all through Hillsong, New York, to where
(22:02):
he's on the platform, he's preaching, and I'm behind the
scenes ghostwriting, you know, the messages that he's giving and
doing a lot to improve his speaking um and make
him seem more charismatic than he actually is, to the
point where he ends up leading a campus, and you know,
(22:26):
I end up here. I wrote the words I physically
and and metaphorically. I was always setting the stage for
these men um and was always and always destined to
be behind the scenes as far as they were concerned.
(22:51):
And that also goes back to part of my my
penance and what I'm since I'm paying for is you
thinking I could help change things to make things more
diverse um and trying to teach Carl, help Carl along
with racial justice kind of issues, but ultimately just teaching him,
(23:15):
I think, how to trick the system and to make
things appear more diverse on the surface, and to you know,
trick people into thinking this was a safe space for them.
Like I have one of my close friends who says,
you know, she came to the church and and saw
me on the platform, and I was like, oh, okay,
(23:37):
she's on She's on the platform. This must be a
safe space. And so it's funny because on this side
of things, we were the people they saw the least
amount of value in. Right, A lot of us are
speaking up partly because a lot of us are free
to because we were never given India's we were never paid.
(23:58):
They never saw the worth in us, never suspected that
we would say anything or than anyone would listen. And
so here we are the people women of color who
they least respected and least expected anything of and where
some of the loudest voices out here because we just
saw so much because they never saw us, and they
(24:19):
just felt felt free to just be bad actors because
we were to them. I think just furniture, right. We
just did not register. Now they probably they probably don't
even regret it, probably just annoyed by it. Hillsong found
it pretty easy to ignore our voices, and when the
celebrities stopped coming, people forgot about their connection pretty quickly too.
(24:43):
The results of an inquiry into allegations of sexual and
financial misconducts at the New York City church were never
made public by Hillsong, but the trouble didn't go away.
Brian Houston resigned in March two after an investigation found
he behaved inappropriately towards two women, and then church has
(25:03):
started to break away from the Hillsong brand in Europe
and the US. The statement I'm gonna make is not easy.
This past week, we were all saddened to hear of
Pastor Bryan's resignation. I know you feel the weight of that,
as do I. His continuation as our senior pastor was
(25:26):
not tenable and Unfortunately, there's been a lot of disagreement
around that across our world, including as some of you
will have read by now, within our own board and
within our own eldership. And I'm not breaking that news.
It's out there. I'm just trying to summon the courage
to face it that it has become clear that we
(25:48):
cannot continue in our global family as much as we
love it, and so we have chosen this week to
withdraw from being Hillsong Church. This is Terry Cree is
breaking the news to his congregation at Hillsong Phoenix. I've
spoken to him about his decision, and I think it's
worth hearing some more of what he said, because it's
(26:09):
very revealing. First, why are we taking this action over
the past year, following the sin that was exposed and
Hillsong Church, New York City and the subsequent investigation that
was conducted into sexual misconduct and into financial misappropriation. I
encourage the results of that report to be made in
(26:32):
some general form. I understand the sensitivity of that. I
asked that the report be redacted so names could be protected.
I asked that the report be synopsized so that we
could embrace accountability and transparency, and for whatever reason that
requests was denied. As information began to leak out as
(26:55):
to what was in the report, and as the Global
Board made the decision to increase financial controls within the churches,
lead pastors were suddenly asked to sign in d a's
and non competes. Some of us couldn't do that in
good conscience, and this has played out in recent weeks.
(27:15):
It came down in recent weeks to the demand that
we sign non disclosure agreements and non competes, meaning that
if we were removed from our positions, we could not
plant churches again within our community for at least one year.
Last Saturday, after months of trying to gain approval to
(27:36):
reseat our local board, we formally requested the release of
our church back to us. Sadly, the board refused our
request and I was told this past week it is
quote all or nothing close quote. We either had to
allow the Global Board to govern our church and to
(27:58):
own our properties, or we had to leave, And so
with great sadness, I chose to leave. Our hearts are
broken for anyone who has been victimized by anyone anywhere,
for any reason, in Hillsong Church or College. That's interesting
to listen to because for years many of us were
(28:18):
speaking out and we were ignored or branded as troublemakers.
We asked for transparency and we got none. It's also
interesting to pick up on that point about nondisclosure agreements.
That's something that comes up in our investigation, not just
among the people in powerful positions like Terry Chris, but
with members of staff and even volunteers. And the report
(28:40):
Terry Chris talked about into the goings on at Hillsong,
New York City, well, we're going to hear a lot
more about that, which kind of brings me back to
the point of the series we're making. For me, it's
three things to help you understand what happened to people
at Hillsong, to keep shining a spotlight on it, and
to try and change a system. But that's a big one.
(29:02):
There's something much bigger than just this particular institution. In
my opinion, it has everything to do with modern Christendom,
especially within the evangelical world. There's something really rotten at
the core within evangelicalism. This is Boss to Fichen. He's
a lawyer who represents victims of church abuse. He has
(29:24):
professional experience with Hillsong, and he's also a grandson of
the famous preacher Billy Graham. The only thing that I
know that can bring accountability to institutions, including hill Song,
is constant exposure and bringing darkness to light. And ultimately,
(29:44):
these institutional leaders are going to have to decide whether
or not their very existence depends upon whether they make
the changes that are needed and to be held accountable
for past conduct. And so I don't know. With Hillsong,
I think it's a little too early to make that determination.
But my personal observations and opinion is that what I've
(30:07):
seen so far is more of a focus on institutional
protection and not a genuine sense of repentance and grieving
over what has been done and the harm that has
been perpetrated on so many. I think they would prefer,
like many institutions, to try to move beyond this sooner
(30:31):
rather than later. I'm a big believer that you cannot
move forward, truly move forward, genuinely move forward as a
ministry organization until you have fully addressed the past, So
being truthful about what's happened, demonstrating authentic repentance through actions
(30:54):
and statements, and then taking steps to change the culture
and institutional framework of the organization to minimize that type
of stuff from ever happening again. And sometimes that requires
leaders to give up power, and people don't like to
give up power, whether they're inside the church or outside
(31:18):
the church. Which is very interesting to me because if
you look at the person that Hillsong and other churches
follow is Jesus, and Jesus is probably the most powerful
and beautiful example of one who had unfathomable power and
who gave up that power. They like to preach it,
(31:40):
but they don't like to follow in those footsteps, being
willing to give up power for the benefit of the individual.
And I have not seen that in Hillsong, and I
haven't seen it in in most institutions that I have
addressed in my career. I'm an optimistic person. I think
there can be answers, I think there can be accountability,
(32:01):
and as Boss says, it's all about bringing light into
the darkness constant exposure. In the next episode, we dive
into the toxic world of Hillsong, New York. We're going
to hear allegations of abuse, exploitation, even rape. These are
the details Hillsong never wanted to shine a light on
and when you shine a light on something, it's what
(32:24):
stays in the shadows. That's the scariest thing of all.
But I'll find someone is eager for the truth to
come out. The reports that landed in my inbox give
us incredible insight into Hillsong. This was the church trying
to get out in front of the problems that were
made by their own culture. It was never supposed to
come to light to us, but clearly there are people
(32:46):
internally who have just had enough, who realized how rotten
the culture is at Hillsong and who wanted this release.
Even their own lawyers are saying, you guys have got
to get control of this, because you're in big trouble.
Two
It really a lures you in. As a young adult,
I felt like a part of something for the first time.
This is false Prophets, the story of Hillsong. It's a
story of how a small church in Australia grew into
a mega church. It's a lesson in how to make
church cool and turn religion into a brand. It's a
(00:20):
lesson in power, money, and abuse. Thousands of people say
Hillsong brought them to Jesus, but Hillsong brought me to
a very dark place. In this series, I've had access
to information Hillsong never wanted the public to see, and
access to people prepared to speak out false prophets. Dived
(00:41):
into a world of star preachers, and we investigate Hillsong's wealth.
But most of all, these podcasts are about people who
believed in a church that said welcome home. I was
a part of Hillsong Church, but I left and now
I'm telling my story. My name is no Emmy. My
(01:03):
last name is pronounced d bit. I'm twenty six years old.
I live in Boston, Massachusetts. The biggest things you need
to know are I was born in Arizona, moved to
Mexico when I was eleven, years old, and I moved
back to the US when I was sixteen. When I
(01:23):
speak in Spanish, it's definitely my Mexican side comes out,
and that's the best way for me to describe it.
But it's more of a louder person that loves to
be dancing. And here's a small beat, even from a
car alarm, and I will start dancing to that. Behind me,
(01:45):
Um is my dog, Teddy. He's like licking himself and
himself's nasty. He is my service dog and he will
be with us on the show. You might hear him
Um a little bit as we're recording. Sorry, Eddy Eda.
(02:07):
So I adopted Teddy almost three years ago. Two and
a half years ago, right after I left Hill Song,
my therapist recommended me getting an emotional support animal. He
believed that would be really helpful to distract my brain
from thinking too much and going down spirals and focusing
on taking care of something. I'm a caregiver. I love
(02:28):
taking care of people, and so if I could take
care of an animal, that was like the best way possible.
And since I'm a dog person, I looked for a
dog and I found Teddy. He's a Shitsu mix eighteen pounds,
little bundle of joy. He's eleven years old, but he
can be quite the character. Sometimes there'll be moments ready
(02:50):
to simple way to make him stop. The one thing
I forgot is I have a squeaky chair. Can you
hear it now? And this is journalist Hardy getting the
inside story that Hillsong wasn't eager to tell. Should I
get something that isn't squeaky? L has close contacts at
the heart of the organization, and she'll be revealing a
(03:10):
lot of things that Hillsong would prefer didn't become public.
But first, here's what you need to know about Hillsong.
It started almost forty years ago in Australia. It's now
spread to more than thirty countries, and it turns over
millions and millions of dollars. So I want to get
(03:31):
a better understanding of what your definition of Hillsong is
because I obviously have my own from my own experience,
but I want to hear from you. I think that
Hillsong is a lating light of the global Pentecostal movement.
Even though it now defines itself as nondenominational, it is
(03:51):
still part of this global Pentecostal movement, which is the
fastest growing religion in the world. There's about six hundred
million believe as worldwide and counting. And what Hillsong did
amazingly well was it sort of made itself the pop
culture arm of this movement. It made itself the lighter touch.
It made itself this big city place for for new
(04:12):
people that were arriving. You know, maybe you grew up
in a small town in Arizona, or maybe you grew
up somewhere overseas and you get to a big city
and you feel loss and a bit lonely and you
find this church and it's so welcoming and they played
this great music and everyone's young and cool and diverse
(04:32):
and all the things that you think about when you
moved to a big city and being a part of
that life. And that's what Hillsong did amazingly well. So
it was never blood and thunder, anti abortion, all that
kind of stuff. You were never really getting that on
the outside. And that's what Hillsong has done so well.
But I think for me, really, yeah, Hillsong is is
(04:53):
about the music. When you think about its money and
its cultural power. It was pioneering and packaging. Are this
really pop friendly music, grant that other churches around the
world but having to play to stop their congregations walking
out the door. That's so true for many people. We
know the music, and I know as a pastor's kid
(05:14):
from a traditional Pentecostal background, Hillsong felt very different to me,
But I didn't know much about the man who started
it all, Brian Houston, or Hillsong's history or theology. It
was just so popular and it was giving people something
in the here and now as well as the ever after,
and it was really showing the way that you could
be a Christian in the modern world. Thank you for
(05:35):
sharing that, because as someone who is from Arizona and
you gave that a little explanation. Um, I was coming
to a bigger city like Boston, hill Song was something
that was very inviting and welcoming into this big new
city experience, and I didn't hear a lot about that.
Like abortion or LGBTQ policies, or like different beliefs, they
(05:58):
are very mainstream with the other churches. So to hear
you say that is very validating, and I'm sure it's
validating for other folks listening as well. From my experience
and my perspective, I would see Hillsong as a dumpster
fire because it's burning from the inside. I tried staying
(06:19):
there longer to help change it as someone who was
a volunteer and a leader there, but through my own experience,
it just became too much and it would have taken
my life if I would have stayed a minute longer.
And now they've been doing their own chaos and setting
their own fires with their own pr Hillsong Church has
(06:42):
been accused of breaking Australian laws by sending money overseas
to avoid scrutiny. A whistleblower, Sue hill Song has alleged
to make a church moved millions of dollars through overseas
entity to avoid scrutinate for Australia's charity regulator has launched
an investigation into hills Church. Documents claim church leaders use
(07:03):
tax free money the large cash gifts to hill Songs
founder and his family. Hillsong founder Brian Houston denies concealing
child abuse. Mega church hit with sexual assault lawsuit by students.
Justin Bieber's pastor, Carl Lentz, fired for moral failures. Hillsong
shuts down Dallas campus following reports pastors misused funds. Hill
(07:25):
Songs Brian Houston resigns from megachurch after internal investigations found
he engaged in inappropriate conduct. That's a long list of scandals,
but the list of people you need to know is
actually really short. We mentioned Hillsong's founder and leader, Brian Houston.
He resigned in March of two. There's also his wife, Bobby,
(07:49):
and their kids. They all had key roles in the
family business, some of them still do. And another name
you'll hear about the star preacher Carl Lentz, famous for
hanging out with Justin Babel. He was sacked in twenties
twenty for what Hillsong called moral failings after he admitted
to cheating on his wife. Some inside is speculate carl
(08:11):
It's is downfall was actually orchestrated by the Hillsong leadership
itself and someone else who's in my story. Josh Comes
and his wife Leona. Josh was initially a part of
Hillsong New York and then became lead campus pastor in Boston.
The church i attended, Hillsong is a complex global network
of legal entities and trying to unravel them as tough,
(08:33):
but its message is simple. Everyone is welcome. But for me,
behind that message was the system I believe exploited me
as a volunteer, a system that didn't affirm me as
a queer person, and a church that left me feeling
spiritually abused. And I'm not the only one with the story.
This series is all about people like Megan Oludhara, Andrew,
(08:57):
Janice and Tiff. I was introduced by two friends that
I went to high school with, and they introduced men
a whole song and um that first day is the
date that I have tattooed on my collar bone. It
really alurres you in as a young adult. I felt
like a part of something for the first time. It
(09:20):
looked and felt different from the traditional church that I
grew up in at a bar Monday through Saturday, the
place that the church was held at at the time.
The first time I went Irvan Plaza. It's a bar,
it's a concert hall, it appears unconventional, but at the
court it's a Pentecostal church. I felt like I was
(09:40):
building God's church and I felt included and it felt
like a family. I get why Hillsong was such a
compelling proposition for that thirteen year old kid that walked
through those doors. I look back at my twenty year
old self, the brave one who, even in that intoxication
of hills Song, backed himself to leave. Even while we
(10:06):
were attending, I remember sometimes looking around and being like,
what the fund did I get myself into? On the
back end, looking at it's like manipulation, right, But at
that time it really felt special and it felt like
we were doing something awesome, and I felt like I
was welcoming people home like that was what we were
supposed to be doing. Hillsong is a major dumpster fire.
(10:28):
The one thing I don't miss about Hillsong is microaggressions.
I would like hill Song to stop existing, but even
more than that, I would like for it to account
for what it's done. It's really easy to get to
(10:51):
the point where you can say, oh, well, how did
you fall for that? That was easy to fall for.
I would never fall for something like that. But the
reality it is that we do every day. We fall
for a lot of things, and some things are worse
than others. And that's the feeling that I want you
to sit with, to be able to understand how evangelical
(11:13):
Christianity and honing it down to Hillsong itself can be dangerous,
and it was dangerous for a lot of us, and
we left, and we're here telling our stories. In this
series is all about getting answers from Hillsong. We each
have a different experience. Some people left recently, some years ago,
some people have talked to us on tape, and some anonymously.
(11:37):
But the thing we all fell for was a great cell.
For me, it was in a Boston nightclub which hosted
a gate club in its basement during the week that
turned out to be ironic. So you get to Royal,
it's a nightclub, and you get to the front door
(11:58):
and there is usually a line, a line out the door,
which is already feeling like concert vibe, like why are
there people waiting outside in the line of a church.
So the host team would often be talking to people
in the line, pending them water or some doughnut holes,
so different little things to just keep them interacting. And
(12:19):
they would have signs that said welcome home, you belong,
Welcome to church. The second spot they would encounter would
be the welcome lounge, and then the welcome lounge. There
was like a merch table, so areas where you could
buy Brian and Bobby's book or a T shirt or
an album of either one of the bands. There was
(12:42):
like secular music sometimes playing, or sometimes they played Hillsong music.
So it's like they were trying to create this very
different vibe. We're not like every other church. They kind
of wanted to chill things down. You're led into the
main service area and it's dark here, and there's the
lights are dim, and there's lights that are on which
(13:06):
are like blue and purple and red, so very different
from your regular charge that just has all the lights on.
Then they would have a screen up in the front
of really big screen that would have announcements like how
to get connected to a connect group, how to give
for the service, and how to give your offering. You
could either text it, go on the app on the
(13:28):
Hillsong app, you can go online, or you can give
cash or in an envelope. So there is different ways
they were making it really easy for you to give
money wor should you. The worship should only last twenty
minutes and I know this because as part of the
(13:49):
events team, I had to do a run sheet. If
they went over they could get in trouble with higher ups.
For me, it felt like it was respectful of people's time.
But now that I looked at it's very much of
production where it's meticulously done minute by minute and like
control to the second I worship you. How do you
(14:17):
transform a real into a church? It's the question that
a lot of people would ask. Uh. Someone would get
there at five am. Uh, there was already cleaners from
the venue who would be cleaning out because on Saturday nights,
obviously the club had been going and you know, people
(14:38):
were partying in there and drinking. Uh. So on Sunday
mornings around four or five o'clock in the morning, that'd
be people cleaning from the venue, and some people from
from Hillsong would show up, like from Target or like
a store. We would buy black sheets like bed sheets,
and we would use those and cover up an a
(15:00):
t M with a black sheet and tape it with
UH with black tape, and so that way you couldn't
see as you were walking in. It blended into the
walls that were painted black. And they wanted to to
cover a t M s because they said they didn't
want to be uh money centered or for people to
feel like they had to like take up money and
(15:21):
take out cash. Um. They wanted to be a little
bit more subtle about that money aspect. And while they
were doing all of this, the venue was mopping cleaning
the bathrooms. But there was still that smell of alcohol
and sometimes the floors would be a little sticky and
as you're walking you can hear like the sticky shoes
like on the floor. Um. So it was really nasty
(15:45):
and like grungy, but you were doing church and as
a volunteer, it really felt fun because you interacted with
the other volunteers. Looking back, I'm like ill, like I
would never sit on any couch or chair at Royal
because it was disgusting. It's probably the reality of Hillsog
(16:06):
of they're sticky floors and there's grungy carpets everywhere. I
remember having to grab there's air fresheners. I would grab
two and I would start spraying them with my arms open,
one on each arm, and I would just circle so
that we could get the air freshener to cover the
smell of alcohol and cigarette. I feel like the air
(16:27):
freshener is a metaphor for Hillsong's PR team because they're
constantly trying to cover for the mess and the drama
that's happening in the and all the accusations that are
coming out. And the PR team for Hillsong is definitely
the air freshener that is not doing a great job
because you could still see through it. And that's basically
what the air freshener was at Hillsog Boston. From my
(16:53):
own personal experience, I've seen how Hillsong handles people who
criticize them, um for like tweeting, to putting out statements,
to saying things on a Sunday service. But what is
that like for you as a journalist? Like, how do
they quote unquote attack you or try to discredit you?
(17:14):
Are you on the wall of shame? Do you know
if you're on the Hillsome Wall of shame? Um, I
don't know what that means. Can you tell me a
little bit more of that? So so you know how
they have security services at all of their at their services,
They've got their own in house security team and the
head of security sits in with the TV monitoring and
they have pictures up of people who aren't allowed in.
You know, it might just be some guy on the
(17:35):
street who's gone in and cause trouble before. But it
is often a lot of ex hill songers who might
have appeared in things, or people who have been told
to leave the church and aren't welcome back. So there
is apparently a wall of shame with pictures of troublemakers
and people who aren't welcome on the wall. So I
do wonder if you're on it. Probably here in in
Boston and in New York I could see that. I
(17:58):
can imagine. I'm just pointed that I don't think I'm
on it because when we were recording out in Sydney
a few months ago and got sprung by the Houstons
out the front of their house and then had to
go to church that evening, I was I was speaking.
I was really nervous that something was going to happen,
because I have a source who has worked high up
(18:18):
insecurity in Sydney and who told me the best entrance
to go through to avoid detection who might be looking
at me and when, and just sailed through the front door.
But they certainly know who I am. I have sources
within quite high levels of the church who are still
there at the moment, who reached out to me, who
a broadly very anti Brian Houston. But I have had
(18:40):
some people within the church reach out to me to
put some other sides the story, but they haven't really
given me any grief. I haven't had any defamation threats
or anything like that, and I'm surprised that they've never
issued a threat. I mean, they detest the media, Brian,
even in the very early days. You know, there's recordings
of him saying that the media is always against us.
(19:02):
They've always been looked at very suspiciously in Australia. Part
of the movement to the US was, I think, you know,
part of being accepted and understood a lot more than
they were in Australia. From the very beginning. Australian media
and public in general were just very skeptical. We don't
really practice faith like that. We don't do the prosperity
Gospels stuff. There endless optimism, the music, the big global brand,
(19:26):
the big shiny services. The Australians were just always very
suspicious of that. You know, he's on record as saying
the media is only ever interested in the money. They
don't care about the good that we do. There are
some good people that work in city Care and things
like that. Who do do some good outreach and charity
work and things like that. But you can't have it
all one way. When you're turning over just obscene amounts
(19:48):
of money for a religious organization, people are going to
ask more questions. Yeah, I think there can. And I
like one point, you say that there's good people within,
and I will never deny that there are good, genuine
people within. The system itself is shitty. The system itself
is not good, and that's what makes the difference. There
(20:10):
could be good people within a bad system. I am
Janice Legata. I like to say I was born in California,
but born for New York. New York is is New York.
And so if you hear something we need to do
something here, let me know, because I it's it's white
(20:30):
noise to me. Janice was there at the start of
Hill Song USA in New York City in twenty times.
She's a really big part of my story and a
powerful voice for some of the people who have left
the song. I am a writer, a fighter, and a
matron saint of cats. So no Emmy and I as
(20:55):
of yet have not met in person, but I mean
I feel like I'm at least partially responsible for her
experience in the sense that I partially responsible for the existence,
maybe not the existence of Hillsong Boston, but definitely of
(21:15):
Josh Coimes being the pastor and the leader over there.
As you know, Josh Comes is someone I I've known
since two thousand five. He and I were at Hillsong
College at the same time. We're in the same little
morning chapel leadership group. You know, his story and mine. Honestly,
(21:39):
it's a it's a perfect encapsulation of the Hillsong experience.
Because Josh Comes is straight, white male, his trajectory from
Hillsong College was very different from mine, even though we
just ended up in a lot of the same places,
from the beginning all through Hillsong, New York, to where
(22:02):
he's on the platform, he's preaching, and I'm behind the
scenes ghostwriting, you know, the messages that he's giving and
doing a lot to improve his speaking um and make
him seem more charismatic than he actually is, to the
point where he ends up leading a campus, and you know,
(22:26):
I end up here. I wrote the words I physically
and and metaphorically. I was always setting the stage for
these men um and was always and always destined to
be behind the scenes as far as they were concerned.
(22:51):
And that also goes back to part of my my
penance and what I'm since I'm paying for is you
thinking I could help change things to make things more
diverse um and trying to teach Carl, help Carl along
with racial justice kind of issues, but ultimately just teaching him,
(23:15):
I think, how to trick the system and to make
things appear more diverse on the surface, and to you know,
trick people into thinking this was a safe space for them.
Like I have one of my close friends who says,
you know, she came to the church and and saw
me on the platform, and I was like, oh, okay,
(23:37):
she's on She's on the platform. This must be a
safe space. And so it's funny because on this side
of things, we were the people they saw the least
amount of value in. Right, A lot of us are
speaking up partly because a lot of us are free
to because we were never given India's we were never paid.
(23:58):
They never saw the worth in us, never suspected that
we would say anything or than anyone would listen. And
so here we are the people women of color who
they least respected and least expected anything of and where
some of the loudest voices out here because we just
saw so much because they never saw us, and they
(24:19):
just felt felt free to just be bad actors because
we were to them. I think just furniture, right. We
just did not register. Now they probably they probably don't
even regret it, probably just annoyed by it. Hillsong found
it pretty easy to ignore our voices, and when the
celebrities stopped coming, people forgot about their connection pretty quickly too.
(24:43):
The results of an inquiry into allegations of sexual and
financial misconducts at the New York City church were never
made public by Hillsong, but the trouble didn't go away.
Brian Houston resigned in March two after an investigation found
he behaved inappropriately towards two women, and then church has
(25:03):
started to break away from the Hillsong brand in Europe
and the US. The statement I'm gonna make is not easy.
This past week, we were all saddened to hear of
Pastor Bryan's resignation. I know you feel the weight of that,
as do I. His continuation as our senior pastor was
(25:26):
not tenable and Unfortunately, there's been a lot of disagreement
around that across our world, including as some of you
will have read by now, within our own board and
within our own eldership. And I'm not breaking that news.
It's out there. I'm just trying to summon the courage
to face it that it has become clear that we
(25:48):
cannot continue in our global family as much as we
love it, and so we have chosen this week to
withdraw from being Hillsong Church. This is Terry Cree is
breaking the news to his congregation at Hillsong Phoenix. I've
spoken to him about his decision, and I think it's
worth hearing some more of what he said, because it's
(26:09):
very revealing. First, why are we taking this action over
the past year, following the sin that was exposed and
Hillsong Church, New York City and the subsequent investigation that
was conducted into sexual misconduct and into financial misappropriation. I
encourage the results of that report to be made in
(26:32):
some general form. I understand the sensitivity of that. I
asked that the report be redacted so names could be protected.
I asked that the report be synopsized so that we
could embrace accountability and transparency, and for whatever reason that
requests was denied. As information began to leak out as
(26:55):
to what was in the report, and as the Global
Board made the decision to increase financial controls within the churches,
lead pastors were suddenly asked to sign in d a's
and non competes. Some of us couldn't do that in
good conscience, and this has played out in recent weeks.
(27:15):
It came down in recent weeks to the demand that
we sign non disclosure agreements and non competes, meaning that
if we were removed from our positions, we could not
plant churches again within our community for at least one year.
Last Saturday, after months of trying to gain approval to
(27:36):
reseat our local board, we formally requested the release of
our church back to us. Sadly, the board refused our
request and I was told this past week it is
quote all or nothing close quote. We either had to
allow the Global Board to govern our church and to
(27:58):
own our properties, or we had to leave, And so
with great sadness, I chose to leave. Our hearts are
broken for anyone who has been victimized by anyone anywhere,
for any reason, in Hillsong Church or College. That's interesting
to listen to because for years many of us were
(28:18):
speaking out and we were ignored or branded as troublemakers.
We asked for transparency and we got none. It's also
interesting to pick up on that point about nondisclosure agreements.
That's something that comes up in our investigation, not just
among the people in powerful positions like Terry Chris, but
with members of staff and even volunteers. And the report
(28:40):
Terry Chris talked about into the goings on at Hillsong,
New York City, well, we're going to hear a lot
more about that, which kind of brings me back to
the point of the series we're making. For me, it's
three things to help you understand what happened to people
at Hillsong, to keep shining a spotlight on it, and
to try and change a system. But that's a big one.
(29:02):
There's something much bigger than just this particular institution. In
my opinion, it has everything to do with modern Christendom,
especially within the evangelical world. There's something really rotten at
the core within evangelicalism. This is Boss to Fichen. He's
a lawyer who represents victims of church abuse. He has
(29:24):
professional experience with Hillsong, and he's also a grandson of
the famous preacher Billy Graham. The only thing that I
know that can bring accountability to institutions, including hill Song,
is constant exposure and bringing darkness to light. And ultimately,
(29:44):
these institutional leaders are going to have to decide whether
or not their very existence depends upon whether they make
the changes that are needed and to be held accountable
for past conduct. And so I don't know. With Hillsong,
I think it's a little too early to make that determination.
But my personal observations and opinion is that what I've
(30:07):
seen so far is more of a focus on institutional
protection and not a genuine sense of repentance and grieving
over what has been done and the harm that has
been perpetrated on so many. I think they would prefer,
like many institutions, to try to move beyond this sooner
(30:31):
rather than later. I'm a big believer that you cannot
move forward, truly move forward, genuinely move forward as a
ministry organization until you have fully addressed the past, So
being truthful about what's happened, demonstrating authentic repentance through actions
(30:54):
and statements, and then taking steps to change the culture
and institutional framework of the organization to minimize that type
of stuff from ever happening again. And sometimes that requires
leaders to give up power, and people don't like to
give up power, whether they're inside the church or outside
(31:18):
the church. Which is very interesting to me because if
you look at the person that Hillsong and other churches
follow is Jesus, and Jesus is probably the most powerful
and beautiful example of one who had unfathomable power and
who gave up that power. They like to preach it,
(31:40):
but they don't like to follow in those footsteps, being
willing to give up power for the benefit of the individual.
And I have not seen that in Hillsong, and I
haven't seen it in in most institutions that I have
addressed in my career. I'm an optimistic person. I think
there can be answers, I think there can be accountability,
(32:01):
and as Boss says, it's all about bringing light into
the darkness constant exposure. In the next episode, we dive
into the toxic world of Hillsong, New York. We're going
to hear allegations of abuse, exploitation, even rape. These are
the details Hillsong never wanted to shine a light on
and when you shine a light on something, it's what
(32:24):
stays in the shadows. That's the scariest thing of all.
But I'll find someone is eager for the truth to
come out. The reports that landed in my inbox give
us incredible insight into Hillsong. This was the church trying
to get out in front of the problems that were
made by their own culture. It was never supposed to
come to light to us, but clearly there are people
(32:46):
internally who have just had enough, who realized how rotten
the culture is at Hillsong and who wanted this release.
Even their own lawyers are saying, you guys have got
to get control of this, because you're in big trouble.
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