February 6, 2025 • 47 mins
The Nation’s Jeet Heer tries to make sense of Trump’s plans to expand America across the globe. Democracy Forward’s Skye Perryman examines the lawsuits they are filing to stop Trump and Musk’s agenda.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds, and Mitch McConnell says that Donald Trump's
pardons were a mistake. Welcome to the resistance, Mitch McConnell.
We have such a great show for you today. The
nation's keyd here tries to make sense of Trump's plans
(00:23):
to annex Canada and make him an American citizen. Then
we'll talk to Democracy now Sky Perryman about the many, many,
many lawsuits that her organization is filing against Trump's two
point zero agenda.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
But first the news Somali.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
There is now the Elon Act.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
The other day I saw an Elon University sticker out
a card.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I thought, does it teach you? That's wheat badly that
I remembered it was real.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Now we have the Elon Act, which is going to
put a border between government contracts and people working in government.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
What are you seeing here?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
This is something if Congress had ever been at all
interested in legislating ever, this would have exit. This would
have been passed twenty years ago. Right, this is why
we have legislation, Right, this is why we do it.
So basically, there's a Congressman from Wisconsin, Mark Pocan, who
(01:20):
is going to roll out the eliminate looting of our
nation by mitigating unethical state cryptocracy quote and then in
brackets Elon Musk act.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Can we just applaud him for that? Very well done.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
You know why he's doing this, eliminating looting in our
nation by mitigating unethical state cryptocracy Elon Musk Act. The
reason why he's doing this is because the chances of
this passing are exactly zero. Right, Democrats don't control the House,
they don't control the Senate, they don't control the presidency.
That's the understatement of the year. So the point here,
(01:55):
and I think it's actually smart, is just to have
it out there. You know what Mark's doing here, he's hoping.
You know, he knows that a lot of Republicans won't
read the bill, but they might read the title.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So that's very smart.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
And again, the idea there is no government employee special
or not uses special in quotes should have any financial
interest in the government period.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Paragraph.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Elon Musk is the poster child for this kind of
potential abuse. I want to just point out there was
a really smart tweet from my friend and yours, Steve Ratner,
who goes on Morning Joe alone, is very smart. That
must companies have received over fifteen billion dollars from the
United States government. So between Tesla, which has an enormous
(02:40):
amount of government contracts, actually Tesla only has three hundred thousand,
but SpaceX has fifteen point four billion dollars in government contracts,
and they work with NASA, the EPA, but most of
that money comes from NASA, but they also work with
the Defense Department. So when you realize that Elon Musk
makes a ton of money from the federal government, this
(03:01):
all makes a lot of sense. Why he should not
be running it too. He should I'll be profiting and
running the federal government. Look, this is why we have
all of this legislation, you know, the sort of post
Watergate legislation, which was to curb corruption. And so obviously
we need more legislation. It won't can pass, but it's
(03:23):
very good to see Democrats doing this. It's important and
useful and also what this is. And by the way,
it's important to keep remembering that Elon Musk is in
the government's computers and he's got his tech bros who
are in their twenties, and they're all in there messing
around Smiley.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
After we get done taping yesterday, I walked up to
talk to my lovely wife and I encountered a television
with Donald Trump yapping next to Benjamin Yette Yahoo. And
I wanted to believe I was watching AI generated madness,
but in fact I was watching Trump suggest that the
US take a for the Gaza strip.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Look.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Trump has mused about what good real estate gaza is.
This is something we've seen him do before. It's what
is it. It's Trump's usual sort of freelancing what he
said yesterday. And again, remember it's Trump. So there's a
lot of you know, there's a lot of flooding the
(04:23):
zone shit, so nobody really knows what's happening here, And
like I want to point out that it's possible he
was just freelancing. In fact, there's a picture of Susie Wiles,
his chief of staff, when he was saying it, and
her eyes were bulging out of her head, which makes
me think, you know, it was like when Trump. Remember
when Trump said maybe if you bring the light into
(04:44):
the body with COVID, you can kill COVID and then
you saw you saw Deborah Burke, who was working in
the ADMIN.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Like her eyes bulging out of her head. That was
what this is like.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So anyway, we saw him talk about this to a
whole musing about how maybe he would send in American troops.
Nobody wants American troops in the Middle East. In fact,
he was elected to make eggs cheaper. That's not happening,
and also to end endless wars, also not happening. But
(05:19):
he's not going to be able to send American or
if he does, there's going to be a major constitutional crisis,
which will be not surprising.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Personally, Malli, what did it for me? Is newest member
of the resistance, Rand Paul said that he didn't quite
see this out this as an American first agenda.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
This is the most cursed timeline where Rand Paul and
Mitch McConnell are being held up as voices of sanity.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
We are so incredibly.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Fucked speaking of the CIA has offered buyouts to the
entire workforce of the CIA.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
So I want to point out that having to defend
the CIA is not as a lefty we don't want
to defend the CIA in our minds nation building is bad. Okay,
I don't want you know, like usaid, We've talked about
this last week or last episode.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Hey brings me no pleasure to defend the.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
FBI in the CIA, right, These are you know, organizations
filled with Republicans, and yet I think firing the entire
CIA might be a mistake. I'm just gonna go out
on a limb here and say, some of those guys
are doing pretty important stuff preventing terrorism. You know, look,
I don't even want to say this because I don't
want to jinx us, but there's a reason why we
(06:35):
haven't had a wide, you know, an enormous terrorist attack
since nine to eleven. It's because these people in the CIA,
in the FBI have been keeping us safe. And I'm
sorry to tell you I take no pleasure in any
of this. But I don't think firing the entire CIA
is a good call.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
And now I am.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Done because I'm so depressed. But yes, don't fire the CIA.
This is an insane thing to do. And you know
what the other thing is that these buyouts are all
just completely you know, they don't have the money for it.
It's you know, it's elon. Just try to get people
to quit so that he doesn't have to deal with them.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, it's pretty silly.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
So next we come to a Politico article that, well,
we never like to do the I told you so thing,
but we should really.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Try to love that.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
I should try to mark the I told you so
with a little bit of facts of thirty seven ways
Project twenty twenty five has shown up in Trump's executive orders.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
What you got, Molly, There are a lot of ways.
I know you're going to be shocked to hear that, just.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
As many people are often saying, there are many ways
that this is showing up.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Look, Project twenty twenty five is like social issues school choice,
which is, you know, defunding public schools, allowing troops to
rejoin who decline the COVID nineteen vaccine, banning transgender troops,
closing the Office of Federal Contract Compliance programs, ending diversity
(08:00):
in the equity and inclusion, ending government efforts to fight misinformation,
enforce the death penalty, and execute prisoners on death row.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
What else, remove DEI from federal hiring. We are just
in it in.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
A way that is completely insane and Okay, we're sending
health care protections for sexual orientation and gender identity Right,
which of course restrict federal funds from supporting abortion access
abroad and under the Mexico City I mean, it's just
everything you thought using Civil Rights Act to remove gender
(08:35):
ideology and critical race theory, withdraw from the World Health Organization,
you know, every plan that we thought, We just knew
that this was going to be. This was how it
was going to be. And it's just incredible. You know,
when Trump said he wasn't going to do it, we
should have just no one should have believed him. And
(08:56):
here we are, and he's staffed a lot of project
you know, worthy of So many people worked in Trump
one point zero, went into the Heritage Foundation or the
other groups that Row Project twenty twenty five and now
are in Trump two point zero or are on the
outside trying to control it. This is just completely, completely
(09:20):
crazy and I'm not surprised at all, and none of
us should be.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And we saw this coming a mile away.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Jeet here is a contributor to the nation and the
host of the Time of Monsters.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Welcome back to Fast Politics. Jeat Here.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Always good to be on.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I'm such a fan of yours.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
And you know, it's funny because it's like you have.
Speaker 7 (09:48):
Been coming on this podcast through the last four years
of normal. But you know, we certainly have had our
problems with Joe Biden, don't get me wrong, you know,
and there was certain only some things where we were
both i think quite agitated, like his foreign policy perhaps
not reflecting my own.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
But wow, holy Molly.
Speaker 5 (10:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, we're crazy town. Now.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
There was shock, there was awe yesterday.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
There were so many things that happened, and some of
them will have lasting implications, some of them will affect
what our lives are like ten years from now, and
some of them will just be a rounding error.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So where do you want to start?
Speaker 5 (10:33):
Yeah, well, I mean, actually, I think that's a really
crucial point that I think a lot of the sort
of Trump strategy, which I think he gets from Bannon
as well, is to just like, you know, creates so
much chaos that it confuses the opposition. And I think
that what has to like distinguish between things that are
appalling but actually like don't match policy or don't have
(10:56):
quite the policy consequences, whereas things that are actually bad
in terms of like actual events that are happening in
the world. Because you know, we know Trump is a
BS artist, so I actually want to like just clarify
that point because there's a lot of stuff that he said,
you know, like yesterday one of the United States to
take over Gaza, presumably after Palstinin's had been cleared out
of there, and to make the so called riviera of
(11:18):
the Middle East in Gaza. It's a great real estate
opportunity folks get in.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
And by the way, I want to specify that we're
laughing to keep from grime because this is so dystopian
and dark.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
Yeah, I mean, like just like on the face of it,
you know, this is an American president who's calling for
our a ethnic clergic be you know, kind of imperialism.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yes, and more American troops to the Middle East to.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
Get yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like if it were to happen,
so super appalling, even appalling if it doesn't happen, because
this totally discredits the United States on the world stage
in terms of all its claims and to support the
international law. Now, having said that, I want to tie
this in with the sort of terrifores going on because
it's very interesting to see how Trump operates on this
(12:03):
and I think it is a lot of this is
what in professional wrestling is known as k fabe.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Ooh, what's that?
Speaker 5 (12:10):
K fabe is like how you're watching something that is
it's the tacit agreement between the audience and the wrestlers
to pretend that everything is real even though they know
it's not real.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Oh, that's really interesting.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
It's a very useful term. And Trump himself the product
of the world of professional wrestling. I mean, this is
one of the reasons he's president. He's like built a
celebrity in the WWE world, and he's made Vince pac
Man's wife. She's the nominee to be at the Department
of Education.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
She knows a lot about learning.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
That's the right. Yeah, but I mean he's a professional wrestler. Like,
like one should no more take anything, Crump says seriously
than one should take the feud between a Hulk hole
Gan and Andre the Giant, right, Like, this is a
lot of this is like performative now, especially on the
trade wars. Like I want to underscore this because what
Trump has done is a He's made huge claims of
(13:02):
like you know, wanting to annex Canada, which I gotta
tell you in Canada is not making people very happy here.
Wanted to annex Greenland, wanted to take over the Panama
Canal again, and then having the tariffs, launching a trade war,
and then negotiating. And what's interesting is that what he's
negotiating like is actually like basically the same or like
less than what the US had. So like just the
(13:23):
clearst cases in Mexico where you say, like, oh wow,
Mexican President Claudia Shineban has agreed to send ten thousand
Mexican troops to supporter Well guess what underbinded that fifteen
thousand troops, So this is like five thousand less troops.
And he also got Trump to say that the US
will work on a major Mexican issue, which is the
(13:43):
selling of like you know, high powered military weapons made
in America to the Mexican cartels, which is something Mexico wants, right,
Like you look at the negotiations, like, you know, Mexico,
to my mind, came out on top of this. Now
in Canada like the same thing, like like you know,
he had trade war, threats of taking over were negotiated,
and what basically just In Trudeau agree to was when
(14:04):
you know, wrapping up spending on border, which he'd already
agreed to under Biden, and the setting up a fentanyl zar,
whatever the hell that means. And I gotta say, like, like,
in twenty twenty three, do you know how much ventanyl
came in was caught at the border between kind of
the United States?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
How much ten pounds?
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Two pounds? What? And last year was like forty eight pounds,
And like the Katie Van says is a massive amount
of ventanyl, Well it's actually like less than your average
like healthy dog.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Ways exactly, even my dog's way more than.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
That, yeah, exactly. So I gotta say, like, so he's
getting like basically nothing. You can go down the line
with Panama, you know, like they agreed to break up
greate agreements with China, which they had already agreed to
break up like in twenty nineteen. So so again, he's
getting nothing from these agreements, but he's getting a lot
of theater. And I think that the theater is both
(14:58):
the sort of like to please the mega base will
like look on this to day all, look how strong
Trump's winning on the international stage. He's like beating his chest,
He's showing America's great again, while getting nothing and secondly,
I don't know if it's a deliberate strategy for distraction,
but it actually like takes people's focus away for the
real stop. And I gotta say, like for the last week,
(15:19):
you know, the real stop is Elon Musk taking control
of the federal government of the actual like you know,
going in there. This guy hey, like you know, hasn't
been confirmed by the said or anything, is head of this.
This is called DOGE, which is like, oh, only exists
because of like an executive order by Trump. He's not
a real agency. Is staffed by like you know, like
basically teenagers cronies of Musk whose names he doesn't even
(15:41):
want to reveal.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Right because that's docs and even though they work for
the federal government and he's stocked other federal government employees before.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Yeah, and also like you know, like actually, if he
wants us to have a government official that's like in
charge of like the system that makes all your Social
Security checks go out, you should actually know they're right,
So they've taken over this. Economist Nathan Tankas has done
a lot of really good writing really explaining this like
a detail, but basically this is the beating heart of
(16:10):
the federal government. You know, just as your heart pumps
up blood, the financial system of finances picking out is
what pumps out all the checks that you know, so
you get your Social Security get check, you get your
Medicare check, you get like everything. And now Elon Musk,
a private citizen, happens to the world's richest man, happens
to have a lot of government contracts, is able to
look at like everyone's Social Security number, and every check
(16:33):
that goes to the federal government sends out, and he
can like look into the basically the contracts of all
his rivals and has like this enormous power. And you know,
they indititionally lied and said they're doing only read only,
but actually it's been reported by Wired they're able to
they're actually like changing the codes of this finance system.
And that is an incredibly dangerous overreach. And it's basically
(16:56):
a coup like Musk has committed like uh, successful coup
at the highest levels of federal power. This is like
a hugely worriesome thing. And I think it's actually I EI,
the one thing that gives me heart is that I
think this is something that's resonating. Individual did a zoom
call which crash started twenty thousand and not a lot
of people are going under protest, and like I think
(17:18):
as fectless as I feel that Democrats have been, so
she said, Trump's victory, this is actually like getting people
like check Schumer out there protesting and been thinking about
like becoming you know, like God forbid, a real opposition party.
So I want people to be able to distinguish, you know,
like it's gone like over loud territory and it's a
bit roundabout, but distinguished between the things that are theatrical,
(17:41):
that are basically you know, appalling on every level should
be condemned, Like it's not actually good for the American
president to talk about annexing other countries, you know, whether
it's Canada, Greenland or Gaza. That's not good. That should
be condemned straightforwardly. But it's not happening. What is actually
happening where where I think that folk of protests and
(18:01):
energy has to be Like I think that basically with
the trade stuff, like I would and the gods of stuff,
I wouldn't ignore it, but I would just like I
think the best response is just like you know, you're
just talking out of your hat.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Well, and also I want to add, like, I think
you're right, and I think.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
There are two things though that have to be remembered.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
One is that all of this is to extend tax
cuts for very rich people. None of this is needed,
None of this must happen. You can just reverse the
twenty seventeen tax cuts and then we're all fine. Right,
there's some debt, but it's not crazy. You can balance
the budget without destroying the federal government. This is because
(18:43):
it's ideologically aligned with Project twenty twenty five and the
far rights desire to crosh the federal government.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Sorry continue, Yeah, No.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
I absolutely, I actually think that. I mean, I think
the Texest has made this point which I think has
to be understood. The debt leverage is going to be
combined with must takeover of the federal financial system. That's
just say, like, once the debt ceiling stuff comes in,
there's gonna be a lot of debate what gets well cut,
what doesn't, And Musk is going to be able to
basically docs and out and make a big show of
(19:14):
various spending programs and give that. It's going to be
a leverage that Trump uses for this long held project
like radically scaling back social services in the United States.
I mean the basic math is that, like, Okay, if
military spending is off the table, and the Trump has
said he wants worse money on the military, not last,
then the only way you can get the kind of
(19:35):
cuts that you need to finance these tax cuts is
you have to go after Medicare and Social Security. I mean,
those are like just they're just the biggest items on
the thing, and like everything else, all this USA USAID
stuff like that's just small peanuts.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Gee, just for one second, since you and I both
come from these very lefty I mean, I assume your
parents were big lefties, but my Grandpather was this communist,
Like didn't you always just assume USA was like a
cover for the CIA.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Oh yeah, I know, it's totally a cover of the CI.
Yeah yeah, yeah, no, it totally is. Which is also
kind of interesting. I mean there is I mean most
I think, you know, he has a lot of business
highs all over the world, and he's playing a lot
of deep games, and I think, you know, like what
cadrule loud that like he's like you're gonna be able
to plotate various foreign people who want USAID to be cut.
(20:26):
But I have to say it, like I think, on
the principle of it, I think, yes, a private billionaire
should not be allowed to cut a government agency just
by his whim. Like that's like crazy and it's unconstitutional
and it's a coup and Democrats should oppose.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It on that end.
Speaker 5 (20:41):
Uh, you know, like whether and USAID does good stuff,
I'll grant you that, But you know, having said that,
like as you think a lot of the Democratic Party
decision to focus on USAID is the same old playbook.
You know, let's rally the national security state. Let's get
the good Republicans on board because they know the importance
of the stuff to and will create a bipartisan consensus
(21:02):
against Trump. I say, like that script is the work,
and it's a Dick Cheney strategy, Like let's talk Dick Cheney,
and it has especially like we now know it doesn't
work because you're seeing all these Republicans going on and
supporting Tulta Gabbard right, like they tried the same thing.
Gabbard quite correctly pointing out but you know, she has
(21:24):
stuff that's totally outside the consensus of mas form policy.
But guess what Tom Cousin is a is a backup Republican,
he's gonna vote for her.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I want to do two seconds more on what you
just said, because I think that's really important. There has
been a branch of the Democratic Party that has truly
believed that if you just appeal to saint Republicans, they
will switch parties. So we have seen that that not
only does that not happen, they just leave. So the
very very few sane Republicans Jeff Flake, Ben sass gone right,
(21:58):
that's it.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Everyone else turned maga.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Even the smart sort of doctors in the Senate, and
I'm thinking about you, Bill Cassidy, smart moral voted for
RFK Junior. So there is no normal Republican party anymore.
And the fact that Democrats keep thinking that they can
appeal to those people, and I think in some ways,
(22:22):
you know, Harris's campaign made this play for these educated Republican.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Women, Well they didn't care. So obviously those people no
longer exist.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So Democrats should just appeal to their base as opposed
to ignoring their base.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
Yeah, I know, absolutely, And I just want to underscore
one they it's not just that they didn't win over
the educated Republicans, but to the extent that the Democrats
become the pro establishment party, because when you do that,
what you're saying is we are the party of the
mainstream establishment. The you know, old line Republicans and old
line Democrats were united against Trump. That actually alienates people,
(22:57):
That alienates your own base because right now America is
in an anti system mood. It has been for like
just like two thousand and eight with the financial meltdown.
And in an anti system mood, you don't want to
support the parole system party like that's your enemy. And
people it's not so much people go over to cramp.
They just stay home.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And that's what we saw.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
We saw. It's absolutely happened. Some of us said it
is gonna happen, and you know, like I hate to
say I told you so, but actually I like to
say I told you so.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
We are again not laughing for any reason other than
the world is burning down.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Actually the world is not bringing down just America.
Speaker 5 (23:34):
But yes, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, I think I
think America is big enough that it can't actually take
down the world. Then I'd be like, don't understimate yourself.
Don't under I mean, like as a Canadian nationalist. Now
and there's a lot of Canadian nationalism, Like I sure
we have these fantasies like let's burn down the White
House again as you did in eighteen twelve, but really, honestly,
like you know, like we're all in this together. And
(23:55):
now having said that, so I think that like with
must takeover, like please don't talk about you say, I
D like, don't talk about how these poor like guys
in Langley, Virginia are gonna be out of a job, like,
so talk about the you know, like like actually Medicare
and social Security.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
This is like, this is what they're targeting.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
This is gonna be like uh uh. And that the
world richest man who wants to become even richer because
he has fantasies of setting up a utopia on Mars,
you know, is gonna gut the federal government and it's
been given like extraordinary unconstitutional power that people should be
out on the street for that, and that this is
gonna actually hurt like real people in the real world.
So I think it's very important not just to oppose it,
(24:36):
but to oppose it the right way. And I got
to say, like some of this focus on USAI D
like to me, like it's the Cheney mindset.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
No, And I think that's a really good point that
it's Liz Cheney mindset. Liz Cheney is not I mean,
I don't know her, but she did the right thing.
But she has no constituency and so it's not a
moral tradgment. It's a you need electeds who have people
who vote them, and if you don't have that, then
there it's kind of silly. I want to just for
(25:05):
a minute talk about it's funny because I'm thinking about
like the best thing that ever happened to Trudeau this.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
Oh yeah, I know the hob Trudeau will still be
kind kind of but he's gonna go out of go
out on a high note. And I actually think, I mean,
it's very I don't know if your listeners a you say,
Canadian are pulling, but the Liberal Party like just a
butt ago was headed towards a blood bath, like they
were headed towards like an extinction level I've had because
Trudeau had been blamed for like sort of you know,
(25:35):
post COVID inflation. Now they're gonna have a leadership change,
but actually already even before there's a new leader, you know,
like in Ontario, the Liberals are these poles. Certain Liberals
are ahead of uh, the Conservative Party, so it's not
going to be a blug bath. And in fact, if
the Conservatives can't win in Ontario, they really can't win,
they might get a minority government, but even though they're
(25:56):
also pulling very valid in Quebec. So those are the
two biggest provinces, y know, which together have like nearly
half of the country's population. So basically I think, yeah,
in a weird way, Trump has revived Canadian liberalism. I mean,
I think we'll probably see that in a lot of
other places as well. Like to the extent to which
(26:16):
various right wing parties all over the world are associated
with Trump, they will be very unpopular. Yeah, I mean
I think that's like a cold comfort I feel to
I buy American friends. But it is absolutely the case
that we're seeing You're going to see a global reaction
against us. And what I think maybe the longer term
is something we're thinking about is like when you see
(26:36):
in the Canadian elite, and especially even amongst our centrist
and conservative types, this like idea like you know, we
can't trust America the president of America. We can It's
like professional wrestling kfabe but still like you having the
President of America saying, you know, Knada is not a
real country. We have to like Annax said, you know,
like so you actually see people like very like people
(26:57):
who had been in conservative governments in the past. Buy's
never been say like, okay, we got to start. Can
we get Canada in the European Union. Can we get
Canada to get trade agreements in Asia and in Latin America?
Can we work around the United States? Can we have
like you know, like hedge oar bats, you know, diversify
our assets, like like move beyond the United States. And
I don't think that's in Canada alone. Like if you
(27:19):
have like the co president Elon musk Is, you know,
pushing like the far right in Germany, well guess what
like in Germany, like you know, like the more brace
stream people are gonna be thinking, like, you know, America,
they saved us from naziuseam but where are they now?
What is America now? It's not the America or anything good.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
It's get here. I hope you'll come back.
Speaker 5 (27:41):
Yes, of course. Always. You can't give me away. You
can't give me away.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Sky Perryman is the President of Democracy Forward.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Welcome back to Fast Politics Sky.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
Hey did it always be here? What a world?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, So talk to me about what is going on
right now, what your organization is doing to hold this
new whatever this is accountable.
Speaker 6 (28:08):
Well, look, first of all, I want to say, we
know a lot many of Americans, including so many people
on our team, are in a really hard time right
now because this administration came in and just immediately started
engaging in such behavior that is really I mean, hold
living up, funding for community programs and essential services like
meals on wheels, and disregarding the basic rights of people.
(28:31):
So I just want to say, at the outset, we're
going to talk about some things we're doing to make
things better, but I don't want to undermine how the
paint the fear that people are feeling at this point.
But in the Court Democracy Forward, our organization, we have
brought a number of cases against the administration's unlawful activity.
I believe as of yesterday we had brought more cases
(28:52):
than any other single organization or any ag But we
are working so closely with so many organizations that are
doing this work, and we had to mobilize and get
into court last week to stop the freeze of essential
services across the country where the administration just with the
stroke of a pence, you know, tried to cut off
everything for meals on wheels to head start to grant
(29:14):
portals that were important for people's health care. I mean,
it was really scary, and we were able to get
into court overnight on behalf of some great clients, the
American Public Health Association, the National Council of Nonprofits, SAGE,
and Main Street Alliance. We were able to get in
court and block that.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Can you explain to me what the sort of legal
plan is and how it works exactly?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (29:38):
I mean, look, the legal plan is pretty simple. When
Donald Trump violates the law and harms people and communities,
he's going to have to answer in court for that behavior.
We knew a lot of what he was going to
do because it was all in a Project twenty twenty five, right,
and we were ready to go. And that's why you
see so many groups suing on birthright, citizenship other things.
(29:58):
We were ready to go on those things. We also
do that this administration wants to govern by chaos and confusion.
That's one of the things they want to do. They
want to throw people off kilter, and so we prepared
for a long time to have the resources to be
able to swiftly bring challenges. They were shocked that in
the middle of the night we were able to get
into court with great clients to stop what they were
(30:20):
doing with the funding. You know, we're in court today
because yesterday there were reports that the US Doge Service
is going to enter the Department of Labor and try
to misappropriate and take economic data across the country. I mean,
just really terrible behavior. But we're able to mobilize and
move very swiftly to get in court because of the
(30:41):
preparation and because of the great warriors that are joining
this work. So that the strategy is that as they
act unlawfully, we're going to see them in court. And
I did some accounting on the back of an envelope
this morning, and there's not a single federal judge in
this country that has ruled that they're doing anything lawfully.
I mean, in every court challenge that's been brought where
(31:03):
judges have considered these things and brought them to temporary orders,
everyone including Reagan appointed judges, are saying that the administration
is acting unlawfully. So we just have to do more
lawsuits if they continue to violate the law and harm people.
So here's my question for you.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Elon Musk is basically doing whatever you want, right, I mean,
he has a crew of people. They are getting into everything.
What is the sort of is that illegal? And can
it be stopped by the courts?
Speaker 6 (31:35):
It's completely unlawful. I do think it will be stopped
by the courts. There's a hearing where I know we're
recording this, but there's a hearing that's going to happen
in a few minutes while we're on this podcast that's
seeking to stop the misappropriation of data at Treasury. We
have filed a suit this morning and are about to
put a tro on file to stop them from doing this.
At the Department of Labor, we've you know, already stopped
(31:57):
the funding free So these are things that are completely
on lane. They violate the Federal Privacy Act, they violate
the protections against arbitrary and capricious and unlawful government activity,
they violate a range of other standards, and I think
you're going to see the courts issue orders to stop
these things as soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
What happens when Trump bold starts ignoring these orders when,
for example, like birthright citizenship now is indefinitely his play
on the fourteenth Amendment and definitely frozen. What happens when
Trump World is like forget that these courts are I mean,
what happens then?
Speaker 6 (32:35):
Well, you know a lot of people ask this question,
and I think, you know, I want to kind of
take it piece by piece. I mean, number one, we
need to get the orders out there, right, we need
to get at the court and have judges do what
they have already been doing.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
No, you have to do this, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
And what we have seen in those cases last week,
there was a concern that they weren't complying with the
funding that the pause and the funding freeze order, and
the judges already called that out. And we have seen
them capitulate in some ways. So for instance, after a
tro was entered and another funding case that the AG's brought,
they issued guidance across the government. So part of it
(33:12):
is making sure the courts are really putting lawyers through
the paces.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
That's great.
Speaker 6 (33:17):
Yeah, lawyers gotthical obligation to follow court orders. And people
don't want their bar license in jeopardy because their clients
are not following court orders, and so I think that
there are some places within our process.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I want to just keep going for a second, because
I think that's really important. A lot of lawyers got
disbarred after Trump one point zero, So that is a
real thing that can happen continue, and you don't.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
Want to have to show up to court and explain
why your client is not operating consistently with the court orders,
which is already starting to happen. So I will say that,
like the lawyers on the side of people in democracy
are lawyers, the state AG's lawyers, other organizations, We're going
to push that if there are attempts to evade court orders.
(34:03):
Now the issue then is what if there are attempts
to evade court orders, and what if the courts keep
ruling one way and the administration just does that sort
of just operates completely outside those balance. I think that
is a crisis that's you know, there's a number of
crises in this country because of this administration and how
they are operating. That is one crisis that could emerge,
(34:24):
and our constitution provides checks to that. I mean, at
some point, Congress and not just the Democrats in Congress,
right at some point, Congress as a body has to
step in. I think that this extreme behavior it threatens
actually Congressism power, it threatens the Court's power. And so
I do think you're going to see the checks and
balances in our branches of government be an important counterweight.
(34:47):
I mean, I will say that I do believe that
they will be. And I think the main thing right now,
in these early days is to for the administration to
understand that if they do these things, they're going to
have to go to court. I mean, they rescinded them
last week because we went into court and got an
order pausing it, and then there were concerns about their
compliance with the order, right, and then they were send
(35:08):
the memo and then now you know, the court is
not fooled by that and has issued in.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Order to protect people.
Speaker 6 (35:15):
But I just want to say, like, I think that
it's that kind of retail level court advocacy that we're
going to have to do right now to protect people
in communities.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Right, So talk to me about kind of what the
strategy here is. There are so many things in my
mind that seem like blatantly unconstitutional. The data stuff feels
very high onless what else are you seeing?
Speaker 2 (35:38):
What else are you keeping track of and what else
are you litigating?
Speaker 6 (35:40):
Again, Well, look, there are a number of attempts to
just limit Americans' freedoms. And we sued, you know, last
week on this DEI anti DEI orders that on behalf
of the American Association of University Professors, on behalf of
the National Council of Higher Education, Diversity officers, on behalf
(36:01):
of restaurant workers, and the city of Baltimore. So everyone
from the Ivory Tower to Main Street to wage workers
are all in this case. And the case is not
just about DEI. It's about our freedom of expression and
our freedom of speech, and this presidence and this administration's
attempt to unconstitutionally condition funding and other program benefits on
(36:27):
particular viewpoints, and that is unconstitutional. And so you know
that was right out of Project twenty twenty five. But
we have those suits ready to go. We have sued
on behalf of religious communities across the country to block
ICE from entering churches rightah and schools right right, there's
sensitive locations. And so I just so I think like
(36:49):
some of it is just really making sure that where
people's rights are violated under the Constitution that there are
swift challenges and other organizations are doing that too. The
other piece of the strategy is to make sure that
where there have been policy advances, Okay, remember you know
Medicare drug price negotiation, that's won't bring people's drug prices,
hip a privacy, and reproductive privacy, those types of protections
(37:13):
were being challenged by the Project twenty twenty five groups
in the courts and them of Justice under the Biden
administration was defending those and now you know, I don't
know that Bondie's Department of Justice, you know, has not
really shown that they will vigorously defend those policies. And
so that's that's not headline grabbing work. But we're doing
a lot to intervene in those cases to make sure
(37:33):
that those policies are protected on behalf of Americans. So
it's like, challenge the Project twenty twenty five blueprint, challenge
other blatant violations of people's rights, right, defend the policies
that need to be defended. And then the other part
is what I call the kind of chaos factor. Right,
this is administration that wants to throw people off guard.
I don't understand that I don't understand why you become
(37:55):
the president of the United States to go to war
with your own people when you're saying shot on all that.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
But we know that playbook.
Speaker 6 (38:01):
It's an old playbook of theirs, and so we're ready
now to be able to respond to the chaos. And
that is what my team has been doing around the
clock to make sure tros are filed quickly, you know,
the funding freezes paused, that data is protected, and other
organizations are doing that as well, and people can learn
(38:22):
more about those efforts at a project that we launched
called Democracy twenty twenty five dot org, where you can
learn more. The other piece, Molly, is the civil service.
Should we talk about that for a minute.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Please, please please, because a lot of this is a
war on nonpartisan government employees exactly.
Speaker 6 (38:41):
So you know, in the eighteen hundred, after there were
concerns that the government was really not delivering for people,
the country moved from what was called the spoil system
to the civil service system that we have now, where
the majority of people that are doing the work of
the American people, delivering our mail, making sure our food
is labeled appropriately, protecting our air and water quality, helping
(39:02):
us at the airports, protecting our communities. The majority, the
vast majority of those two point two million civil servants
who live and work, by the way across the United
States and every single state, their non part is and
they work for Republican administrations, and they work for Democratic administrations,
and they swear an oath to the Constitution, and that's
the oath they have. Well, that type of a system
(39:22):
is a real threat to people like Donald Trump who
want to govern by, you know, governed by this narrow
and rigid ideology, to create a country that's only for
some and not for all of us. And so we
have seen an outright assault on our nations public servants.
We've seen a retribution agenda at the Department of Justice
and in other agencies, but we've also just seen an
(39:44):
outright assault on average Americans that have federal jobs, that
are just doing their job and taking care of people.
So they have already sought to reimpose Schedule F, which
was one of our project twenty twenty five, you know,
top that one of their product twenty twenty five Top
P Priorities. We've filed two lawsuits on that. They have
sent out a document purporting to try to buy out
(40:06):
the federal workforce, but they're doing it in a way that,
like Congress hasn't even appropriated funds. I mean, they're doing
it in a way that it's not even clear if
the buyout is actually something they would deliver on. It's
you know, it's a scam, and so we filed yesterday,
you know, to challenge that behavior. And then individual civil
servants who are being placed on leads and who are
(40:28):
being exited out of the government will have rights too,
and some of those rights they'll they'll have to go
to other forums. Sometimes they don't go straight into district court.
Sometimes they can, but we are working to build as
many legal defenses as possible and to help the people
who have really helped our country. And your listeners can
go to Civil Servicestrong dot org, which is one of
(40:50):
our projects, civil servicestrong dot org and learn more about
how they can support the civil service and if they
are a civil servant, how they can get access to resources.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Do you think these civil servants should write the CIA
is being offered buyout, the FBI is being offered buyouts.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Should people take these buyouts?
Speaker 6 (41:10):
You know, I am never going to advise anybody with
their personal situation. But I think that you've seen a
number of state attorneys, generals, the unions, a number of
advocates and policymakers say, you know, proceed with caution. And
then of course we have sued in court because we
believe what they've done is unlawful, that it's very unclear,
it's potentially misleading, misleading, and that there's not even funds
(41:34):
appropriated for these purported buyouts. We have a lot of
concern that if people take them, they could get rescinded
in some way because there aren't funds. We have a
lot of concerns about the vague language and the sort
of roving the sort of roving positions people are taking,
and then the fact that the agency really just did
not even have legal authority to do this, to offer
(41:55):
them anyway. Right, Yeah, So all of those are that's
in court that you know. So what I hope is
that if people are able, and I know everyone's in
their own personal circumstance, but we're at this point of
this country that we are going to get we're going
to move forward only if we all commit to each
other as a community, as a national community, that the
(42:17):
best of this country, that the people of this country,
that democracy in this country is not going to go
down without a fight and without a lot of people
doing everything they can in their own personal lives in
this moment. And so you've got lawyers working around the clock,
you have civil servants who are being disrespected that are
still going into work to do their job to deliver
(42:38):
for people. I was over on Capitol Hill today. You
have members of Congress. I mean, we are all going
to have to do our part, and so I hope
that people will look at it through that lens and
do what's right for them that also know that the
American people just really appreciate our civil servants for sure.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Tell me first what you think elected Democrats should be
doing to support the really important federal employees and what's
happening right now.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
Look, I think that they're really seeking to raise awareness
about what's happening. I mean a lot of these federal employees,
guess what, they live and work and serve people in
Republican areas, in red areas across the country, Florida. I
don't have my numbers in front of me. I think
it's something like eighty thousand federal employees, maybe more than that, right,
just you know in the deepest drided states. And so
(43:26):
I think that part of this is making sure that
those that are not supporting the civil service, whether they
are in the administration or whether they are in Congress,
are really held to account. And there are ways to
do that, and I think you'll see members of Congress
that support the civil service continuing to do that. And
then a lot of it is supporting the legal challenges
and then making this a salient issue. I mean, this
(43:49):
should be an issue people that are putting our civil
servants out of work, that are making it harder for
Americans to get what they need. Those people should be
put out of the job in two years, right, and
I think in the midterms, and I think that elevating
these issues in those ways is going to be.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Really important, right. And I think that's a really good point.
Talk to me about sort of any other legal challenges
that you're doing right now.
Speaker 6 (44:14):
We sued DOSEE on the first day of the administration.
There was a flurry of lawsuits against DOGE. We're trying
to protect houses of worship from being turned into law
enforcement facilities. Against ice. We have these three civil service lawsuits.
We literally just filed before I got on the phone
with you, a lawsuit that we're going to try to
have heard today to prevent DOGE from coming into the
(44:36):
Department of Labor and the Department of Labor from sort
of seating very highly sensitive data on the entire American workforce,
sensitive data about workers in the country, health data, you know,
to sort of see that, so that will be heard.
We have challenged a variety of the executive orders as
violations of the First Amendment, and we are working you know,
(44:59):
you're looking at these grant terminations, usaid, unpaid leave, all
of those issues we were planning to litigate. So you'll
see a lot more from us in the days ahead.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Thank you, thank you, thank you scot.
Speaker 6 (45:11):
Well, thank you for having me on, and thank you
Molly for everything that you're doing to make sure people
are getting the message. And I think for so much,
and you and I talk about this every time I
come on, but just remember that there are far right
movements in this country and the Trump administration that want
people to feel like they have no power and that
they have no reason to hope. And our work goes
(45:31):
every day that we do have power and that we
can find hope in each other and in utilizing that
power for the future. And so that's what we're going
to continue to do every day, and I'll come back
and talk to you about it. Great, Thank you, great,
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
There no moth.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
Jesse Cannon Somali four or four Media, one of my
favorite media outlets, has a really, really bad article about
how Dose employees have been ordered to stop using slackball
agency transitions to a record system not subject to FOYE,
which really is one of those nightmare scenarios we kind
of knew when we'd get into encrypted technologies would probably happen,
(46:14):
but here we are in hell.
Speaker 5 (46:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I mean, look, I think that we shouldn't be so
surprised that this was happening. None of our data is
safe now we have all of these people who are
in it, they or don't have the same kind of
compliance they are, you know, doing a lot of stuff
that is really it might be fine, it might not
(46:38):
be fine, right, I Mean, that's that's going to be
the big question here, and there are going to be
all sorts of unforeseen consequences that we don't even know about.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
And I'm not surprised.
Speaker 7 (46:48):
You know.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best
US minds and politics makes sense of all this chaos.
If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a
friend and keep the conversation going.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Thanks for listening.
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds, and Mitch McConnell says that Donald Trump's
pardons were a mistake. Welcome to the resistance, Mitch McConnell.
We have such a great show for you today. The
nation's keyd here tries to make sense of Trump's plans
(00:23):
to annex Canada and make him an American citizen. Then
we'll talk to Democracy now Sky Perryman about the many, many,
many lawsuits that her organization is filing against Trump's two
point zero agenda.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
But first the news Somali.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
There is now the Elon Act.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
The other day I saw an Elon University sticker out
a card.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I thought, does it teach you? That's wheat badly that
I remembered it was real.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Now we have the Elon Act, which is going to
put a border between government contracts and people working in government.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
What are you seeing here?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
This is something if Congress had ever been at all
interested in legislating ever, this would have exit. This would
have been passed twenty years ago. Right, this is why
we have legislation, Right, this is why we do it.
So basically, there's a Congressman from Wisconsin, Mark Pocan, who
(01:20):
is going to roll out the eliminate looting of our
nation by mitigating unethical state cryptocracy quote and then in
brackets Elon Musk act.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Can we just applaud him for that? Very well done.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
You know why he's doing this, eliminating looting in our
nation by mitigating unethical state cryptocracy Elon Musk Act. The
reason why he's doing this is because the chances of
this passing are exactly zero. Right, Democrats don't control the House,
they don't control the Senate, they don't control the presidency.
That's the understatement of the year. So the point here,
(01:55):
and I think it's actually smart, is just to have
it out there. You know what Mark's doing here, he's hoping.
You know, he knows that a lot of Republicans won't
read the bill, but they might read the title.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So that's very smart.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
And again, the idea there is no government employee special
or not uses special in quotes should have any financial
interest in the government period.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Paragraph.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Elon Musk is the poster child for this kind of
potential abuse. I want to just point out there was
a really smart tweet from my friend and yours, Steve Ratner,
who goes on Morning Joe alone, is very smart. That
must companies have received over fifteen billion dollars from the
United States government. So between Tesla, which has an enormous
(02:40):
amount of government contracts, actually Tesla only has three hundred thousand,
but SpaceX has fifteen point four billion dollars in government contracts,
and they work with NASA, the EPA, but most of
that money comes from NASA, but they also work with
the Defense Department. So when you realize that Elon Musk
makes a ton of money from the federal government, this
(03:01):
all makes a lot of sense. Why he should not
be running it too. He should I'll be profiting and
running the federal government. Look, this is why we have
all of this legislation, you know, the sort of post
Watergate legislation, which was to curb corruption. And so obviously
we need more legislation. It won't can pass, but it's
(03:23):
very good to see Democrats doing this. It's important and
useful and also what this is. And by the way,
it's important to keep remembering that Elon Musk is in
the government's computers and he's got his tech bros who
are in their twenties, and they're all in there messing
around Smiley.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
After we get done taping yesterday, I walked up to
talk to my lovely wife and I encountered a television
with Donald Trump yapping next to Benjamin Yette Yahoo. And
I wanted to believe I was watching AI generated madness,
but in fact I was watching Trump suggest that the
US take a for the Gaza strip.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Look.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Trump has mused about what good real estate gaza is.
This is something we've seen him do before. It's what
is it. It's Trump's usual sort of freelancing what he
said yesterday. And again, remember it's Trump. So there's a
lot of you know, there's a lot of flooding the
(04:23):
zone shit, so nobody really knows what's happening here, And
like I want to point out that it's possible he
was just freelancing. In fact, there's a picture of Susie Wiles,
his chief of staff, when he was saying it, and
her eyes were bulging out of her head, which makes
me think, you know, it was like when Trump. Remember
when Trump said maybe if you bring the light into
(04:44):
the body with COVID, you can kill COVID and then
you saw you saw Deborah Burke, who was working in
the ADMIN.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Like her eyes bulging out of her head. That was
what this is like.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So anyway, we saw him talk about this to a
whole musing about how maybe he would send in American troops.
Nobody wants American troops in the Middle East. In fact,
he was elected to make eggs cheaper. That's not happening,
and also to end endless wars, also not happening. But
(05:19):
he's not going to be able to send American or
if he does, there's going to be a major constitutional crisis,
which will be not surprising.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Personally, Malli, what did it for me? Is newest member
of the resistance, Rand Paul said that he didn't quite
see this out this as an American first agenda.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
This is the most cursed timeline where Rand Paul and
Mitch McConnell are being held up as voices of sanity.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
We are so incredibly.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Fucked speaking of the CIA has offered buyouts to the
entire workforce of the CIA.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
So I want to point out that having to defend
the CIA is not as a lefty we don't want
to defend the CIA in our minds nation building is bad. Okay,
I don't want you know, like usaid, We've talked about
this last week or last episode.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Hey brings me no pleasure to defend the.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
FBI in the CIA, right, These are you know, organizations
filled with Republicans, and yet I think firing the entire
CIA might be a mistake. I'm just gonna go out
on a limb here and say, some of those guys
are doing pretty important stuff preventing terrorism. You know, look,
I don't even want to say this because I don't
want to jinx us, but there's a reason why we
(06:35):
haven't had a wide, you know, an enormous terrorist attack
since nine to eleven. It's because these people in the CIA,
in the FBI have been keeping us safe. And I'm
sorry to tell you I take no pleasure in any
of this. But I don't think firing the entire CIA
is a good call.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
And now I am.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Done because I'm so depressed. But yes, don't fire the CIA.
This is an insane thing to do. And you know
what the other thing is that these buyouts are all
just completely you know, they don't have the money for it.
It's you know, it's elon. Just try to get people
to quit so that he doesn't have to deal with them.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, it's pretty silly.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
So next we come to a Politico article that, well,
we never like to do the I told you so thing,
but we should really.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Try to love that.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
I should try to mark the I told you so
with a little bit of facts of thirty seven ways
Project twenty twenty five has shown up in Trump's executive orders.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
What you got, Molly, There are a lot of ways.
I know you're going to be shocked to hear that, just.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
As many people are often saying, there are many ways
that this is showing up.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Look, Project twenty twenty five is like social issues school choice,
which is, you know, defunding public schools, allowing troops to
rejoin who decline the COVID nineteen vaccine, banning transgender troops,
closing the Office of Federal Contract Compliance programs, ending diversity
(08:00):
in the equity and inclusion, ending government efforts to fight misinformation,
enforce the death penalty, and execute prisoners on death row.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
What else, remove DEI from federal hiring. We are just
in it in.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
A way that is completely insane and Okay, we're sending
health care protections for sexual orientation and gender identity Right,
which of course restrict federal funds from supporting abortion access
abroad and under the Mexico City I mean, it's just
everything you thought using Civil Rights Act to remove gender
(08:35):
ideology and critical race theory, withdraw from the World Health Organization,
you know, every plan that we thought, We just knew
that this was going to be. This was how it
was going to be. And it's just incredible. You know,
when Trump said he wasn't going to do it, we
should have just no one should have believed him. And
(08:56):
here we are, and he's staffed a lot of project
you know, worthy of So many people worked in Trump
one point zero, went into the Heritage Foundation or the
other groups that Row Project twenty twenty five and now
are in Trump two point zero or are on the
outside trying to control it. This is just completely, completely
(09:20):
crazy and I'm not surprised at all, and none of
us should be.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And we saw this coming a mile away.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Jeet here is a contributor to the nation and the
host of the Time of Monsters.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Welcome back to Fast Politics. Jeat Here.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Always good to be on.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I'm such a fan of yours.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
And you know, it's funny because it's like you have.
Speaker 7 (09:48):
Been coming on this podcast through the last four years
of normal. But you know, we certainly have had our
problems with Joe Biden, don't get me wrong, you know,
and there was certain only some things where we were
both i think quite agitated, like his foreign policy perhaps
not reflecting my own.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
But wow, holy Molly.
Speaker 5 (10:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, we're crazy town. Now.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
There was shock, there was awe yesterday.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
There were so many things that happened, and some of
them will have lasting implications, some of them will affect
what our lives are like ten years from now, and
some of them will just be a rounding error.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So where do you want to start?
Speaker 5 (10:33):
Yeah, well, I mean, actually, I think that's a really
crucial point that I think a lot of the sort
of Trump strategy, which I think he gets from Bannon
as well, is to just like, you know, creates so
much chaos that it confuses the opposition. And I think
that what has to like distinguish between things that are
appalling but actually like don't match policy or don't have
(10:56):
quite the policy consequences, whereas things that are actually bad
in terms of like actual events that are happening in
the world. Because you know, we know Trump is a
BS artist, so I actually want to like just clarify
that point because there's a lot of stuff that he said,
you know, like yesterday one of the United States to
take over Gaza, presumably after Palstinin's had been cleared out
of there, and to make the so called riviera of
(11:18):
the Middle East in Gaza. It's a great real estate
opportunity folks get in.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
And by the way, I want to specify that we're
laughing to keep from grime because this is so dystopian
and dark.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
Yeah, I mean, like just like on the face of it,
you know, this is an American president who's calling for
our a ethnic clergic be you know, kind of imperialism.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yes, and more American troops to the Middle East to.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
Get yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like if it were to happen,
so super appalling, even appalling if it doesn't happen, because
this totally discredits the United States on the world stage
in terms of all its claims and to support the
international law. Now, having said that, I want to tie
this in with the sort of terrifores going on because
it's very interesting to see how Trump operates on this
(12:03):
and I think it is a lot of this is
what in professional wrestling is known as k fabe.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Ooh, what's that?
Speaker 5 (12:10):
K fabe is like how you're watching something that is
it's the tacit agreement between the audience and the wrestlers
to pretend that everything is real even though they know
it's not real.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Oh, that's really interesting.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
It's a very useful term. And Trump himself the product
of the world of professional wrestling. I mean, this is
one of the reasons he's president. He's like built a
celebrity in the WWE world, and he's made Vince pac
Man's wife. She's the nominee to be at the Department
of Education.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
She knows a lot about learning.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
That's the right. Yeah, but I mean he's a professional wrestler. Like,
like one should no more take anything, Crump says seriously
than one should take the feud between a Hulk hole
Gan and Andre the Giant, right, Like, this is a
lot of this is like performative now, especially on the
trade wars. Like I want to underscore this because what
Trump has done is a He's made huge claims of
(13:02):
like you know, wanting to annex Canada, which I gotta
tell you in Canada is not making people very happy here.
Wanted to annex Greenland, wanted to take over the Panama
Canal again, and then having the tariffs, launching a trade war,
and then negotiating. And what's interesting is that what he's
negotiating like is actually like basically the same or like
less than what the US had. So like just the
(13:23):
clearst cases in Mexico where you say, like, oh wow,
Mexican President Claudia Shineban has agreed to send ten thousand
Mexican troops to supporter Well guess what underbinded that fifteen
thousand troops, So this is like five thousand less troops.
And he also got Trump to say that the US
will work on a major Mexican issue, which is the
(13:43):
selling of like you know, high powered military weapons made
in America to the Mexican cartels, which is something Mexico wants, right,
Like you look at the negotiations, like, you know, Mexico,
to my mind, came out on top of this. Now
in Canada like the same thing, like like you know,
he had trade war, threats of taking over were negotiated,
and what basically just In Trudeau agree to was when
(14:04):
you know, wrapping up spending on border, which he'd already
agreed to under Biden, and the setting up a fentanyl zar,
whatever the hell that means. And I gotta say, like, like,
in twenty twenty three, do you know how much ventanyl
came in was caught at the border between kind of
the United States?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
How much ten pounds?
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Two pounds? What? And last year was like forty eight pounds,
And like the Katie Van says is a massive amount
of ventanyl, Well it's actually like less than your average
like healthy dog.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Ways exactly, even my dog's way more than.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
That, yeah, exactly. So I gotta say, like, so he's
getting like basically nothing. You can go down the line
with Panama, you know, like they agreed to break up
greate agreements with China, which they had already agreed to
break up like in twenty nineteen. So so again, he's
getting nothing from these agreements, but he's getting a lot
of theater. And I think that the theater is both
(14:58):
the sort of like to please the mega base will
like look on this to day all, look how strong
Trump's winning on the international stage. He's like beating his chest,
He's showing America's great again, while getting nothing and secondly,
I don't know if it's a deliberate strategy for distraction,
but it actually like takes people's focus away for the
real stop. And I gotta say, like for the last week,
(15:19):
you know, the real stop is Elon Musk taking control
of the federal government of the actual like you know,
going in there. This guy hey, like you know, hasn't
been confirmed by the said or anything, is head of this.
This is called DOGE, which is like, oh, only exists
because of like an executive order by Trump. He's not
a real agency. Is staffed by like you know, like
basically teenagers cronies of Musk whose names he doesn't even
(15:41):
want to reveal.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Right because that's docs and even though they work for
the federal government and he's stocked other federal government employees before.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Yeah, and also like you know, like actually, if he
wants us to have a government official that's like in
charge of like the system that makes all your Social
Security checks go out, you should actually know they're right,
So they've taken over this. Economist Nathan Tankas has done
a lot of really good writing really explaining this like
a detail, but basically this is the beating heart of
(16:10):
the federal government. You know, just as your heart pumps
up blood, the financial system of finances picking out is
what pumps out all the checks that you know, so
you get your Social Security get check, you get your
Medicare check, you get like everything. And now Elon Musk,
a private citizen, happens to the world's richest man, happens
to have a lot of government contracts, is able to
look at like everyone's Social Security number, and every check
(16:33):
that goes to the federal government sends out, and he
can like look into the basically the contracts of all
his rivals and has like this enormous power. And you know,
they indititionally lied and said they're doing only read only,
but actually it's been reported by Wired they're able to
they're actually like changing the codes of this finance system.
And that is an incredibly dangerous overreach. And it's basically
(16:56):
a coup like Musk has committed like uh, successful coup
at the highest levels of federal power. This is like
a hugely worriesome thing. And I think it's actually I EI,
the one thing that gives me heart is that I
think this is something that's resonating. Individual did a zoom
call which crash started twenty thousand and not a lot
of people are going under protest, and like I think
(17:18):
as fectless as I feel that Democrats have been, so
she said, Trump's victory, this is actually like getting people
like check Schumer out there protesting and been thinking about
like becoming you know, like God forbid, a real opposition party.
So I want people to be able to distinguish, you know,
like it's gone like over loud territory and it's a
bit roundabout, but distinguished between the things that are theatrical,
(17:41):
that are basically you know, appalling on every level should
be condemned, Like it's not actually good for the American
president to talk about annexing other countries, you know, whether
it's Canada, Greenland or Gaza. That's not good. That should
be condemned straightforwardly. But it's not happening. What is actually
happening where where I think that folk of protests and
(18:01):
energy has to be Like I think that basically with
the trade stuff, like I would and the gods of stuff,
I wouldn't ignore it, but I would just like I
think the best response is just like you know, you're
just talking out of your hat.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Well, and also I want to add, like, I think
you're right, and I think.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
There are two things though that have to be remembered.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
One is that all of this is to extend tax
cuts for very rich people. None of this is needed,
None of this must happen. You can just reverse the
twenty seventeen tax cuts and then we're all fine. Right,
there's some debt, but it's not crazy. You can balance
the budget without destroying the federal government. This is because
(18:43):
it's ideologically aligned with Project twenty twenty five and the
far rights desire to crosh the federal government.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Sorry continue, Yeah, No.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
I absolutely, I actually think that. I mean, I think
the Texest has made this point which I think has
to be understood. The debt leverage is going to be
combined with must takeover of the federal financial system. That's
just say, like, once the debt ceiling stuff comes in,
there's gonna be a lot of debate what gets well cut,
what doesn't, And Musk is going to be able to
basically docs and out and make a big show of
(19:14):
various spending programs and give that. It's going to be
a leverage that Trump uses for this long held project
like radically scaling back social services in the United States.
I mean the basic math is that, like, Okay, if
military spending is off the table, and the Trump has
said he wants worse money on the military, not last,
then the only way you can get the kind of
(19:35):
cuts that you need to finance these tax cuts is
you have to go after Medicare and Social Security. I mean,
those are like just they're just the biggest items on
the thing, and like everything else, all this USA USAID
stuff like that's just small peanuts.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Gee, just for one second, since you and I both
come from these very lefty I mean, I assume your
parents were big lefties, but my Grandpather was this communist,
Like didn't you always just assume USA was like a
cover for the CIA.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Oh yeah, I know, it's totally a cover of the CI.
Yeah yeah, yeah, no, it totally is. Which is also
kind of interesting. I mean there is I mean most
I think, you know, he has a lot of business
highs all over the world, and he's playing a lot
of deep games, and I think, you know, like what
cadrule loud that like he's like you're gonna be able
to plotate various foreign people who want USAID to be cut.
(20:26):
But I have to say it, like I think, on
the principle of it, I think, yes, a private billionaire
should not be allowed to cut a government agency just
by his whim. Like that's like crazy and it's unconstitutional
and it's a coup and Democrats should oppose.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It on that end.
Speaker 5 (20:41):
Uh, you know, like whether and USAID does good stuff,
I'll grant you that, But you know, having said that,
like as you think a lot of the Democratic Party
decision to focus on USAID is the same old playbook.
You know, let's rally the national security state. Let's get
the good Republicans on board because they know the importance
of the stuff to and will create a bipartisan consensus
(21:02):
against Trump. I say, like that script is the work,
and it's a Dick Cheney strategy, Like let's talk Dick Cheney,
and it has especially like we now know it doesn't
work because you're seeing all these Republicans going on and
supporting Tulta Gabbard right, like they tried the same thing.
Gabbard quite correctly pointing out but you know, she has
(21:24):
stuff that's totally outside the consensus of mas form policy.
But guess what Tom Cousin is a is a backup Republican,
he's gonna vote for her.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I want to do two seconds more on what you
just said, because I think that's really important. There has
been a branch of the Democratic Party that has truly
believed that if you just appeal to saint Republicans, they
will switch parties. So we have seen that that not
only does that not happen, they just leave. So the
very very few sane Republicans Jeff Flake, Ben sass gone right,
(21:58):
that's it.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Everyone else turned maga.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Even the smart sort of doctors in the Senate, and
I'm thinking about you, Bill Cassidy, smart moral voted for
RFK Junior. So there is no normal Republican party anymore.
And the fact that Democrats keep thinking that they can
appeal to those people, and I think in some ways,
(22:22):
you know, Harris's campaign made this play for these educated Republican.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Women, Well they didn't care. So obviously those people no
longer exist.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So Democrats should just appeal to their base as opposed
to ignoring their base.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
Yeah, I know, absolutely, And I just want to underscore
one they it's not just that they didn't win over
the educated Republicans, but to the extent that the Democrats
become the pro establishment party, because when you do that,
what you're saying is we are the party of the
mainstream establishment. The you know, old line Republicans and old
line Democrats were united against Trump. That actually alienates people,
(22:57):
That alienates your own base because right now America is
in an anti system mood. It has been for like
just like two thousand and eight with the financial meltdown.
And in an anti system mood, you don't want to
support the parole system party like that's your enemy. And
people it's not so much people go over to cramp.
They just stay home.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And that's what we saw.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
We saw. It's absolutely happened. Some of us said it
is gonna happen, and you know, like I hate to
say I told you so, but actually I like to
say I told you so.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
We are again not laughing for any reason other than
the world is burning down.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Actually the world is not bringing down just America.
Speaker 5 (23:34):
But yes, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, I think I
think America is big enough that it can't actually take
down the world. Then I'd be like, don't understimate yourself.
Don't under I mean, like as a Canadian nationalist. Now
and there's a lot of Canadian nationalism, Like I sure
we have these fantasies like let's burn down the White
House again as you did in eighteen twelve, but really, honestly,
like you know, like we're all in this together. And
(23:55):
now having said that, so I think that like with
must takeover, like please don't talk about you say, I
D like, don't talk about how these poor like guys
in Langley, Virginia are gonna be out of a job, like,
so talk about the you know, like like actually Medicare
and social Security.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
This is like, this is what they're targeting.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
This is gonna be like uh uh. And that the
world richest man who wants to become even richer because
he has fantasies of setting up a utopia on Mars,
you know, is gonna gut the federal government and it's
been given like extraordinary unconstitutional power that people should be
out on the street for that, and that this is
gonna actually hurt like real people in the real world.
So I think it's very important not just to oppose it,
(24:36):
but to oppose it the right way. And I got
to say, like some of this focus on USAI D
like to me, like it's the Cheney mindset.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
No, And I think that's a really good point that
it's Liz Cheney mindset. Liz Cheney is not I mean,
I don't know her, but she did the right thing.
But she has no constituency and so it's not a
moral tradgment. It's a you need electeds who have people
who vote them, and if you don't have that, then
there it's kind of silly. I want to just for
(25:05):
a minute talk about it's funny because I'm thinking about
like the best thing that ever happened to Trudeau this.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
Oh yeah, I know the hob Trudeau will still be
kind kind of but he's gonna go out of go
out on a high note. And I actually think, I mean,
it's very I don't know if your listeners a you say,
Canadian are pulling, but the Liberal Party like just a
butt ago was headed towards a blood bath, like they
were headed towards like an extinction level I've had because
Trudeau had been blamed for like sort of you know,
(25:35):
post COVID inflation. Now they're gonna have a leadership change,
but actually already even before there's a new leader, you know,
like in Ontario, the Liberals are these poles. Certain Liberals
are ahead of uh, the Conservative Party, so it's not
going to be a blug bath. And in fact, if
the Conservatives can't win in Ontario, they really can't win,
they might get a minority government, but even though they're
(25:56):
also pulling very valid in Quebec. So those are the
two biggest provinces, y know, which together have like nearly
half of the country's population. So basically I think, yeah,
in a weird way, Trump has revived Canadian liberalism. I mean,
I think we'll probably see that in a lot of
other places as well. Like to the extent to which
(26:16):
various right wing parties all over the world are associated
with Trump, they will be very unpopular. Yeah, I mean
I think that's like a cold comfort I feel to
I buy American friends. But it is absolutely the case
that we're seeing You're going to see a global reaction
against us. And what I think maybe the longer term
is something we're thinking about is like when you see
(26:36):
in the Canadian elite, and especially even amongst our centrist
and conservative types, this like idea like you know, we
can't trust America the president of America. We can It's
like professional wrestling kfabe but still like you having the
President of America saying, you know, Knada is not a
real country. We have to like Annax said, you know,
like so you actually see people like very like people
(26:57):
who had been in conservative governments in the past. Buy's
never been say like, okay, we got to start. Can
we get Canada in the European Union. Can we get
Canada to get trade agreements in Asia and in Latin America?
Can we work around the United States? Can we have
like you know, like hedge oar bats, you know, diversify
our assets, like like move beyond the United States. And
I don't think that's in Canada alone. Like if you
(27:19):
have like the co president Elon musk Is, you know,
pushing like the far right in Germany, well guess what
like in Germany, like you know, like the more brace
stream people are gonna be thinking, like, you know, America,
they saved us from naziuseam but where are they now?
What is America now? It's not the America or anything good.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
It's get here. I hope you'll come back.
Speaker 5 (27:41):
Yes, of course. Always. You can't give me away. You
can't give me away.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Sky Perryman is the President of Democracy Forward.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Welcome back to Fast Politics Sky.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
Hey did it always be here? What a world?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, So talk to me about what is going on
right now, what your organization is doing to hold this
new whatever this is accountable.
Speaker 6 (28:08):
Well, look, first of all, I want to say, we
know a lot many of Americans, including so many people
on our team, are in a really hard time right
now because this administration came in and just immediately started
engaging in such behavior that is really I mean, hold
living up, funding for community programs and essential services like
meals on wheels, and disregarding the basic rights of people.
(28:31):
So I just want to say, at the outset, we're
going to talk about some things we're doing to make
things better, but I don't want to undermine how the
paint the fear that people are feeling at this point.
But in the Court Democracy Forward, our organization, we have
brought a number of cases against the administration's unlawful activity.
I believe as of yesterday we had brought more cases
(28:52):
than any other single organization or any ag But we
are working so closely with so many organizations that are
doing this work, and we had to mobilize and get
into court last week to stop the freeze of essential
services across the country where the administration just with the
stroke of a pence, you know, tried to cut off
everything for meals on wheels to head start to grant
(29:14):
portals that were important for people's health care. I mean,
it was really scary, and we were able to get
into court overnight on behalf of some great clients, the
American Public Health Association, the National Council of Nonprofits, SAGE,
and Main Street Alliance. We were able to get in
court and block that.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Can you explain to me what the sort of legal
plan is and how it works exactly?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (29:38):
I mean, look, the legal plan is pretty simple. When
Donald Trump violates the law and harms people and communities,
he's going to have to answer in court for that behavior.
We knew a lot of what he was going to
do because it was all in a Project twenty twenty five, right,
and we were ready to go. And that's why you
see so many groups suing on birthright, citizenship other things.
(29:58):
We were ready to go on those things. We also
do that this administration wants to govern by chaos and confusion.
That's one of the things they want to do. They
want to throw people off kilter, and so we prepared
for a long time to have the resources to be
able to swiftly bring challenges. They were shocked that in
the middle of the night we were able to get
into court with great clients to stop what they were
(30:20):
doing with the funding. You know, we're in court today
because yesterday there were reports that the US Doge Service
is going to enter the Department of Labor and try
to misappropriate and take economic data across the country. I mean,
just really terrible behavior. But we're able to mobilize and
move very swiftly to get in court because of the
(30:41):
preparation and because of the great warriors that are joining
this work. So that the strategy is that as they
act unlawfully, we're going to see them in court. And
I did some accounting on the back of an envelope
this morning, and there's not a single federal judge in
this country that has ruled that they're doing anything lawfully.
I mean, in every court challenge that's been brought where
(31:03):
judges have considered these things and brought them to temporary orders,
everyone including Reagan appointed judges, are saying that the administration
is acting unlawfully. So we just have to do more
lawsuits if they continue to violate the law and harm people.
So here's my question for you.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Elon Musk is basically doing whatever you want, right, I mean,
he has a crew of people. They are getting into everything.
What is the sort of is that illegal? And can
it be stopped by the courts?
Speaker 6 (31:35):
It's completely unlawful. I do think it will be stopped
by the courts. There's a hearing where I know we're
recording this, but there's a hearing that's going to happen
in a few minutes while we're on this podcast that's
seeking to stop the misappropriation of data at Treasury. We
have filed a suit this morning and are about to
put a tro on file to stop them from doing this.
At the Department of Labor, we've you know, already stopped
(31:57):
the funding free So these are things that are completely
on lane. They violate the Federal Privacy Act, they violate
the protections against arbitrary and capricious and unlawful government activity,
they violate a range of other standards, and I think
you're going to see the courts issue orders to stop
these things as soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
What happens when Trump bold starts ignoring these orders when,
for example, like birthright citizenship now is indefinitely his play
on the fourteenth Amendment and definitely frozen. What happens when
Trump World is like forget that these courts are I mean,
what happens then?
Speaker 6 (32:35):
Well, you know a lot of people ask this question,
and I think, you know, I want to kind of
take it piece by piece. I mean, number one, we
need to get the orders out there, right, we need
to get at the court and have judges do what
they have already been doing.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
No, you have to do this, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
And what we have seen in those cases last week,
there was a concern that they weren't complying with the
funding that the pause and the funding freeze order, and
the judges already called that out. And we have seen
them capitulate in some ways. So for instance, after a
tro was entered and another funding case that the AG's brought,
they issued guidance across the government. So part of it
(33:12):
is making sure the courts are really putting lawyers through
the paces.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
That's great.
Speaker 6 (33:17):
Yeah, lawyers gotthical obligation to follow court orders. And people
don't want their bar license in jeopardy because their clients
are not following court orders, and so I think that
there are some places within our process.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I want to just keep going for a second, because
I think that's really important. A lot of lawyers got
disbarred after Trump one point zero, So that is a
real thing that can happen continue, and you don't.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
Want to have to show up to court and explain
why your client is not operating consistently with the court orders,
which is already starting to happen. So I will say that,
like the lawyers on the side of people in democracy
are lawyers, the state AG's lawyers, other organizations, We're going
to push that if there are attempts to evade court orders.
(34:03):
Now the issue then is what if there are attempts
to evade court orders, and what if the courts keep
ruling one way and the administration just does that sort
of just operates completely outside those balance. I think that
is a crisis that's you know, there's a number of
crises in this country because of this administration and how
they are operating. That is one crisis that could emerge,
(34:24):
and our constitution provides checks to that. I mean, at
some point, Congress and not just the Democrats in Congress,
right at some point, Congress as a body has to
step in. I think that this extreme behavior it threatens
actually Congressism power, it threatens the Court's power. And so
I do think you're going to see the checks and
balances in our branches of government be an important counterweight.
(34:47):
I mean, I will say that I do believe that
they will be. And I think the main thing right now,
in these early days is to for the administration to
understand that if they do these things, they're going to
have to go to court. I mean, they rescinded them
last week because we went into court and got an
order pausing it, and then there were concerns about their
compliance with the order, right, and then they were send
(35:08):
the memo and then now you know, the court is
not fooled by that and has issued in.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Order to protect people.
Speaker 6 (35:15):
But I just want to say, like, I think that
it's that kind of retail level court advocacy that we're
going to have to do right now to protect people
in communities.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Right, So talk to me about kind of what the
strategy here is. There are so many things in my
mind that seem like blatantly unconstitutional. The data stuff feels
very high onless what else are you seeing?
Speaker 2 (35:38):
What else are you keeping track of and what else
are you litigating?
Speaker 6 (35:40):
Again, Well, look, there are a number of attempts to
just limit Americans' freedoms. And we sued, you know, last
week on this DEI anti DEI orders that on behalf
of the American Association of University Professors, on behalf of
the National Council of Higher Education, Diversity officers, on behalf
(36:01):
of restaurant workers, and the city of Baltimore. So everyone
from the Ivory Tower to Main Street to wage workers
are all in this case. And the case is not
just about DEI. It's about our freedom of expression and
our freedom of speech, and this presidence and this administration's
attempt to unconstitutionally condition funding and other program benefits on
(36:27):
particular viewpoints, and that is unconstitutional. And so you know
that was right out of Project twenty twenty five. But
we have those suits ready to go. We have sued
on behalf of religious communities across the country to block
ICE from entering churches rightah and schools right right, there's
sensitive locations. And so I just so I think like
(36:49):
some of it is just really making sure that where
people's rights are violated under the Constitution that there are
swift challenges and other organizations are doing that too. The
other piece of the strategy is to make sure that
where there have been policy advances, Okay, remember you know
Medicare drug price negotiation, that's won't bring people's drug prices,
hip a privacy, and reproductive privacy, those types of protections
(37:13):
were being challenged by the Project twenty twenty five groups
in the courts and them of Justice under the Biden
administration was defending those and now you know, I don't
know that Bondie's Department of Justice, you know, has not
really shown that they will vigorously defend those policies. And
so that's that's not headline grabbing work. But we're doing
a lot to intervene in those cases to make sure
(37:33):
that those policies are protected on behalf of Americans. So
it's like, challenge the Project twenty twenty five blueprint, challenge
other blatant violations of people's rights, right, defend the policies
that need to be defended. And then the other part
is what I call the kind of chaos factor. Right,
this is administration that wants to throw people off guard.
I don't understand that I don't understand why you become
(37:55):
the president of the United States to go to war
with your own people when you're saying shot on all that.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
But we know that playbook.
Speaker 6 (38:01):
It's an old playbook of theirs, and so we're ready
now to be able to respond to the chaos. And
that is what my team has been doing around the
clock to make sure tros are filed quickly, you know,
the funding freezes paused, that data is protected, and other
organizations are doing that as well, and people can learn
(38:22):
more about those efforts at a project that we launched
called Democracy twenty twenty five dot org, where you can
learn more. The other piece, Molly, is the civil service.
Should we talk about that for a minute.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Please, please please, because a lot of this is a
war on nonpartisan government employees exactly.
Speaker 6 (38:41):
So you know, in the eighteen hundred, after there were
concerns that the government was really not delivering for people,
the country moved from what was called the spoil system
to the civil service system that we have now, where
the majority of people that are doing the work of
the American people, delivering our mail, making sure our food
is labeled appropriately, protecting our air and water quality, helping
(39:02):
us at the airports, protecting our communities. The majority, the
vast majority of those two point two million civil servants
who live and work, by the way across the United
States and every single state, their non part is and
they work for Republican administrations, and they work for Democratic administrations,
and they swear an oath to the Constitution, and that's
the oath they have. Well, that type of a system
(39:22):
is a real threat to people like Donald Trump who
want to govern by, you know, governed by this narrow
and rigid ideology, to create a country that's only for
some and not for all of us. And so we
have seen an outright assault on our nations public servants.
We've seen a retribution agenda at the Department of Justice
and in other agencies, but we've also just seen an
(39:44):
outright assault on average Americans that have federal jobs, that
are just doing their job and taking care of people.
So they have already sought to reimpose Schedule F, which
was one of our project twenty twenty five, you know,
top that one of their product twenty twenty five Top
P Priorities. We've filed two lawsuits on that. They have
sent out a document purporting to try to buy out
(40:06):
the federal workforce, but they're doing it in a way that,
like Congress hasn't even appropriated funds. I mean, they're doing
it in a way that it's not even clear if
the buyout is actually something they would deliver on. It's
you know, it's a scam, and so we filed yesterday,
you know, to challenge that behavior. And then individual civil
servants who are being placed on leads and who are
(40:28):
being exited out of the government will have rights too,
and some of those rights they'll they'll have to go
to other forums. Sometimes they don't go straight into district court.
Sometimes they can, but we are working to build as
many legal defenses as possible and to help the people
who have really helped our country. And your listeners can
go to Civil Servicestrong dot org, which is one of
(40:50):
our projects, civil servicestrong dot org and learn more about
how they can support the civil service and if they
are a civil servant, how they can get access to resources.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Do you think these civil servants should write the CIA
is being offered buyout, the FBI is being offered buyouts.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Should people take these buyouts?
Speaker 6 (41:10):
You know, I am never going to advise anybody with
their personal situation. But I think that you've seen a
number of state attorneys, generals, the unions, a number of
advocates and policymakers say, you know, proceed with caution. And
then of course we have sued in court because we
believe what they've done is unlawful, that it's very unclear,
it's potentially misleading, misleading, and that there's not even funds
(41:34):
appropriated for these purported buyouts. We have a lot of
concern that if people take them, they could get rescinded
in some way because there aren't funds. We have a
lot of concerns about the vague language and the sort
of roving the sort of roving positions people are taking,
and then the fact that the agency really just did
not even have legal authority to do this, to offer
(41:55):
them anyway. Right, Yeah, So all of those are that's
in court that you know. So what I hope is
that if people are able, and I know everyone's in
their own personal circumstance, but we're at this point of
this country that we are going to get we're going
to move forward only if we all commit to each
other as a community, as a national community, that the
(42:17):
best of this country, that the people of this country,
that democracy in this country is not going to go
down without a fight and without a lot of people
doing everything they can in their own personal lives in
this moment. And so you've got lawyers working around the clock,
you have civil servants who are being disrespected that are
still going into work to do their job to deliver
(42:38):
for people. I was over on Capitol Hill today. You
have members of Congress. I mean, we are all going
to have to do our part, and so I hope
that people will look at it through that lens and
do what's right for them that also know that the
American people just really appreciate our civil servants for sure.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Tell me first what you think elected Democrats should be
doing to support the really important federal employees and what's
happening right now.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
Look, I think that they're really seeking to raise awareness
about what's happening. I mean a lot of these federal employees,
guess what, they live and work and serve people in
Republican areas, in red areas across the country, Florida. I
don't have my numbers in front of me. I think
it's something like eighty thousand federal employees, maybe more than that, right,
just you know in the deepest drided states. And so
(43:26):
I think that part of this is making sure that
those that are not supporting the civil service, whether they
are in the administration or whether they are in Congress,
are really held to account. And there are ways to
do that, and I think you'll see members of Congress
that support the civil service continuing to do that. And
then a lot of it is supporting the legal challenges
and then making this a salient issue. I mean, this
(43:49):
should be an issue people that are putting our civil
servants out of work, that are making it harder for
Americans to get what they need. Those people should be
put out of the job in two years, right, and
I think in the midterms, and I think that elevating
these issues in those ways is going to be.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Really important, right. And I think that's a really good point.
Talk to me about sort of any other legal challenges
that you're doing right now.
Speaker 6 (44:14):
We sued DOSEE on the first day of the administration.
There was a flurry of lawsuits against DOGE. We're trying
to protect houses of worship from being turned into law
enforcement facilities. Against ice. We have these three civil service lawsuits.
We literally just filed before I got on the phone
with you, a lawsuit that we're going to try to
have heard today to prevent DOGE from coming into the
(44:36):
Department of Labor and the Department of Labor from sort
of seating very highly sensitive data on the entire American workforce,
sensitive data about workers in the country, health data, you know,
to sort of see that, so that will be heard.
We have challenged a variety of the executive orders as
violations of the First Amendment, and we are working you know,
(44:59):
you're looking at these grant terminations, usaid, unpaid leave, all
of those issues we were planning to litigate. So you'll
see a lot more from us in the days ahead.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Thank you, thank you, thank you scot.
Speaker 6 (45:11):
Well, thank you for having me on, and thank you
Molly for everything that you're doing to make sure people
are getting the message. And I think for so much,
and you and I talk about this every time I
come on, but just remember that there are far right
movements in this country and the Trump administration that want
people to feel like they have no power and that
they have no reason to hope. And our work goes
(45:31):
every day that we do have power and that we
can find hope in each other and in utilizing that
power for the future. And so that's what we're going
to continue to do every day, and I'll come back
and talk to you about it. Great, Thank you, great,
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
There no moth.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
Jesse Cannon Somali four or four Media, one of my
favorite media outlets, has a really, really bad article about
how Dose employees have been ordered to stop using slackball
agency transitions to a record system not subject to FOYE,
which really is one of those nightmare scenarios we kind
of knew when we'd get into encrypted technologies would probably happen,
(46:14):
but here we are in hell.
Speaker 5 (46:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I mean, look, I think that we shouldn't be so
surprised that this was happening. None of our data is
safe now we have all of these people who are
in it, they or don't have the same kind of
compliance they are, you know, doing a lot of stuff
that is really it might be fine, it might not
(46:38):
be fine, right, I Mean, that's that's going to be
the big question here, and there are going to be
all sorts of unforeseen consequences that we don't even know about.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
And I'm not surprised.
Speaker 7 (46:48):
You know.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best
US minds and politics makes sense of all this chaos.
If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a
friend and keep the conversation going.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Thanks for listening.
Host
Molly Jong-Fast
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