Reflection

Dr. Hobson and I discuss several of the topics and issues that were explored during the Fight Night series.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From I Heart Radio and Doghouse Pictures. This is Fight Night.
I'm Jeff Keating. My initial attraction to this story centered
around Ali's return to the ring and the heist, especially

(00:21):
since both of these events happened in my hometown. I
was young and relatively naive, especially in matters of race,
culture and systematic injustice. So when I first interviewed J. D.
Hudson in two thousand and two, I never imagined I
would be getting an education into the two Americas, a

(00:44):
term often used to denote the different experiences between white
communities and black and brown communities, and also into the
worlds of the police and the people of color they
were assigned to govern. I didn't expect to discover so
much more about Atlanta, the city I was born and raised,

(01:05):
and also come to learn that this world of hustlers
and policemen where Chicken Man and JD were born, was
just miles away from where I grew up. I was
in my early thirties when I began pursuing this story,
and I was ignorant and misinformed about several topics in
our collective American history. But for some reason, these two

(01:29):
incredible men trusted me to tell their stories, and I'm
honored by this opportunity. I was also fortunate to have
other voices as guides, including our historian Dr Maurice Hobson.
In this final episode of Reflection, Dr Hobson and I
explore some of these topics and issues in more depth

(01:52):
and try to wrap our minds around the nuance and
complexities of these characters and events. We've again with the
topic of how the black communities are seen and viewed
by white communities. The expansion on that conversation really has

(02:16):
more to do with what White America cannot see. In
Black America. It's not visible via the naked eye. You know,
by and large, within black communities, the idea of who
black people were has always been extremely much more complicated
within the black community than what White America can see.
And so in this regard what Husson was referring to
it he was discussing how he was far more superior,

(02:39):
far more intelligent than the white police officers that were
his superior. But you know, he had to kind of
present himself as not being as such because that was
a way of survival. Historically, this is known as a
slave with But what this also does when white men
begin to work for him, they didn't want to leave
him because, you know, he was cool, he was fair,
he was smart, and they understood that. But the way

(03:01):
in which this works in the larger context, oftentimes, in
European cultures, the idea of success is based on you know, income,
or it's based on profession, you know, the kind of
job that you have. That's not necessarily the case in
the black community. The black community operates under a different
set of cultural practices, and so one of the things

(03:22):
that should be articulated is the fact that these hustlers, uh,
these gangsters were probably some of the most intelligent people
that you would meet. But it did not register or
it was not presented in a way to where White
America could understand it. Within Eurocentric culture, you know, if
you're smart, you're supposed to do well in school and
be Validatorian and go on to college and be rich

(03:42):
and famous and successful. Well, the truth of the matter
is that Black Americans will not afford it those opportunities.
And this goes back to w eb Devoce's double consciousness,
where Black America always has to see itself through the
eyes of others, and so there's a folk culture that
black people understand, which does fully understand the normal economic
opportunities that are presented by these quote unquote hustlers versus

(04:05):
you know, the kind of New England pious kind of
thrift and self help in denying yourself gratification. And so
Hudson's reference to that really does articulate the way in
which he's functioning in two worlds. He understands the criminal
element of this world in a very clear and precise way,
and he also understands the world of, you know, being

(04:26):
a professional as a police officer in Atlanta. One of
the things that I've found fascinating as I was going
back and listening to episode one was the way that
this cyclically came back when he first was sworn in
by Herbertie Jenkins, the chief of police, or at least
his boss as the end police, and then later went
on to explain to the audience that Herberty Jenkins became

(04:50):
one of the most liberal police chiefs in the country.
So talk about that kind of Here's the word that
blew me away, Maurice is he said that Herbertie Jenkins
evol involved. That means you change your character and heart
to mean, that's that's a that's a strong word. So
talk about I mean, is it not or do you
disagree with that? I agree, But you know, I'm listening

(05:11):
to this and and and for a living, I study people.
Maybe it wasn't that Herbert Jenkins evolved. Maybe he was
playing politics in the front end. And the political climate
in Atlanta changed, particularly in the middle of the nineteen
fifties when Mayor Bill Hartsville decided to coin and market
Atlanta as the city too busy to hate. I want

(05:31):
you to think about it this way. In the nineteen fifties,
I mean, Montgomery is absolutely rebelling, there's unrest Jackson, Mississippi.
There's unrest Little Rock, Arkansas, Nashville, Tennessee, Greensboro, North Carolina.
And so what Atlanta understands is if it presents itself
as being a moderate city, that it could actually be
the poster child for race relations in the American South.

(05:52):
Atlanta in nineteen one is the first Southern city to
integrate in terms of public schools, in terms of transportation,
and different aspect of life. And Jenkins is on record
as saying that plansmen from you know, Florida or Alabama
or Tennessee, Mississippi. You know the Carolinas, that they would
be put in jail, they would get their heads cracked

(06:13):
if they came to Atlanta trying to start problems. You
also have doing this time is RALPHL. McGill, who is
the editor for the Atlanta Journal Constitution, who has taken
a seriously heartlined stance on really presenting Atlanta as a
city that has moderate race relations. And so I think
that Herbert Jenkins that he fits into this new refashioning

(06:34):
and rebranding of Atlanta, and I think he then becomes
a leader or pioneer in terms of how race relations
can go. I mean there there are a lot of
major political figures in the history of the United States
that have done that. I mean, one that comes to
mind is Linda Baines Johnson. He ran as a segregationist.
He's out of Texas, but he does more in terms
of civil and human rights legislation than any other American president,

(06:56):
And any movement towards the advancement of democracy is centered
around someoneline President Lynda B. Johnson. Now we can see
that same kind of experience with her Jenkins. What I'm
saying is he may have evolved, but what he may
have evolved from is not having to play politics as
much as being a human being. That's fair to say. Again,
the interconnection between Herbertie Jenkins and j D from early on,

(07:20):
specifically as it relates to our story, I guess that's
a better way to put it. You know, this guy
that's sworn in with this racial slur. J D even
says at the time, I didn't even think about it.
I had to reflect back on it. That's kind of unusual,
and that statement itself. And then as you see, as
the story progresses, however we would define it, you know,

(07:40):
evolution or playing politics or whatever. But ultimately, Herbertie Jenkins
assigns j D, the same cop that he's sworn in
to lead this case, so obviously they got either some
kind of bond or trust or respect or whatever it
is to put him in such a case with such
a high spotlight. Is that fair to say? It's fair
to say it. And you know, across the American South,

(08:02):
I mean particularly, you know, we think about race relations
in the American South and we see it as a
sordid relationship between blacks and whites. But people are complicated,
and one on one they do different things, and maybe
you know safe to say that Hudson and Herbert Jenkins
really did just have a bond and there was a trust.
And also, you know, think of it this way. What
really maybe happening here is that J. D. Hudson as

(08:23):
a police officer who had to arrest the young people
of the Atlanta student movement, you know, at LEPs Diner,
but he had to do so with dignity and pride.
And it may be that Chief Jenkins understood that j
D was the kind of person that could keep the
black community office back, and see there may have been

(08:44):
appreciation for that. It was one of those things to
where because j. D. Hudson had an organic relationship with
all of the black communities in Atlanta, and Herbert Jenkins
understood that the black community respected j. D. Hudson. That's
probably why j D was able to you know, become
Ali's bodyguard and to be with him seven you know,

(09:05):
during the time when Ali is here before his fight.
You know, I've had some reservations about some of the
phrases and topics that we're discussing, So let's take one
of those so we can expand on it a little bit,

(09:28):
which is black on black crime. Just talk a little
bit about the history of that phrase. Black on black
crime is a pathologizing kind of term. Oftentimes that came
into the American English lexicon with other words such as
inner city which means black, well, welfare queen. They're the

(09:50):
scripted narratives. And the thing about it is, I want
you to think about this, only of the United States
is identifies as of African descent, and the fact that
someone would throw out black on black crime, it negates
all of the horror and terror in the violence that
America has put on all of its citizens, but black, brown,

(10:11):
Native women, poor people. So to throw that out there,
it really shifts to blame from what the real culprit is.
And so when we talked about black on black and
what that means, oftentimes, you know, black on black is
presented to kind of take the focus off of what
America has done in terms of violence towards other communities,

(10:34):
and it just focuses on a particular group to show
that black people are their own worst enemies. And it
doesn't take into account American greed, it doesn't take into
account segregation, it doesn't take into account sexual assault, and
trafficking and all of those different things. It doesn't really
take it to account American history exactly. All right, Let's
seg to Mohammad Ali. Mom was telling me that Muhammad

(10:56):
Ali had a real love affair with Atlanta of the
years well as a result of Ali being able to
fight here, he endears that relationship with Atlanta. And there
are at least four things that Ali does with Atlanta
over his career because they become partners. So Muhammad Ali
and Atlanta, Georgia create this love affair and what I
call it is a love story in the Key of

(11:18):
the Black New South. The Black New South deals with
the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four and the
Voting Rights Act of ninety five, which politically changed the
American South where black people are able to really assert
themselves politically. And so what all he does is in
the late nineteen seventies, he comes back to Atlanta to
help raise money for the Dr Martin Luther King Center.

(11:40):
He comes back to Atlanta, King's hometown and celebrates Dr
King in his non volunt direct action by helping to
raise money. He has a fight in effigy with Maynard
Jackson to help raise money for this cause. Also, during
the notorious episodes known as the Atlanta Child Murders, it
is Ali who gives his money from his own winnings
to the City of Atlanta. He gives four hundred thousand

(12:01):
dollars in cash because the City of Atlanta could only
muster one thousand dollars for an award, so he gives
that to the City of Atlanta because he says, it's
shameful what's happening to those children. And then, of course
in the nineteen eighties, he does come back to Atlanta
to again help raise more money for the King Center.
But it's in when he likes to torch for the

(12:23):
Centennial Olympia that we really see that deal sealed in
in their relationship. The relationship between Muhammad Ali and Atlanta,
Georgia is one that deserves considerable research and attention. Ali
understood that Atlanta given him the opportunity to come back
and fight, set a stage for him to do what
he loved to do most and that was, you know,

(12:45):
be a champion of humanity. Atlanta understanding the bron the brain,
the brilliance of Ali as not only a heavyweight fighter,
but as a champion for civil and human rights attached
to itself and the both the city and Ali merge
themselves and present it the kind of image of what

(13:08):
it meant to be rising in the black New South.
What are some similarities and some tie ins about this story,
that event you just discussed, that heist from nineteen seventy
and what we're dealing with now in two thousand and twenty.
Some of the similarities between the Ali fight nineteen seventy,

(13:32):
the all black everything heist that takes place after the fight,
and what we have going now is also a conversation
around equal protection and due process under the law. Let
me connect this in a particular kind of way. You know,
Mohammad Ali was buked in scoring because he was deemed
as on patriotic because he did not want to adhere

(13:53):
to policies that would have sent him to the front
lines to be murdered on behalf of the country that
didn't love him. And it goes back to the conversation
I mean with with Ali being a prize fighter, I'm
pretty sure that white America would have loved to have
seen him just shut up in box. And you know,
right now we are in the midst of a pandemic
where the American President and even the governor in the
state of Georgia has failed to try to protect people

(14:17):
from this pandemic. Things such as personal protective equipment ppees
that is seriously impacted folks with pre existing conditions, who
are overwhelmingly black and brown, who who don't have access
to adequate healthcare, they live in food deserts. We see
the rise of the prison industrial complex and and how
that works. But what we also began to see here

(14:37):
is right now with professional sports, you see athletes that
are taking a page out of Muhammad Ali's book and
they're standing up. Of course, Colin Kaepernick is going to
get his due for taking a knee in regards to
the playing of the national anthem to bring, you know,
attention to police brutality. You got the NBA players who
with the Kenosha, Wisconsin police shooting Jacob Blake in the

(14:59):
back seven time times, who basically say, you know what,
this is an injustice and they said we're not going
to play tonight. You have Lebron James and the rest
of the NBA players who meet with President Barack Obama
who's able to really fully discuss how they can will
their power as athletes to be able to make this

(15:20):
world more democratic. So I mean, we see how Atlanta,
Georgia is going to make state from arena become a
place for voting. What we're seeing here is that Ali
was the kind of world persona. He showed us how
it should be done. But then on the flip side
of it is in each in every world and each
and every time, there's always an informal economy. And there

(15:42):
are those within all communities, but the Black community in
particular that feel as if America has never done right
by black populations, and thus they operate on their own terms.
And in operating on their own terms, that's why you
would have a fireball, or why you would have a
you know, Richard Wheeler, Yeah, short, Papa. I love the

(16:02):
story of Ola May and her daughters tressing up, going
to the malls and stealing everything and then obviously using
it to it. But there are white politicians and white
people in corporate worlds that are stealing money and breaking
the law all over the place, and of course they
it's not looked at in the same regard, or they

(16:23):
have the finances to hire people to protect them legally,
or they have the connections politically to protect them from
certain things. But it's all criminals. Discussed that a little
bit in nineteen seventy and that hypocrisy in some ways,
well sure, I mean the founding of this country is
based on that same kind degree. I mean, you know,
there were people Native Americans that were that have been

(16:45):
on this land for thousands of years. And when Europeans come,
they decide that, you know, they are guys, chosen people,
and they are going to go from sea to shining sea.
It's called manifest destiny. And so when this new nation
was created, the laws were created to keep a particular
group of people in power, uh, the top five percent
in power. And as a result of that, when you

(17:06):
create the laws, you also create the loopholes. When we
talk about this gangster all of this gangster stuff, what
we're really talking about as capitalism and greed. I mean,
that's what America was based on. We're talking about a
group of hustlers who have figured out how to manipulate
the system based on how they can, versus bankers and
Wall Street who is able to manipulate the system of

(17:28):
money how they can, and then they can get just
slapped on the wrist. Oh, I didn't know that that happened.
You're talking about the haves and have knots historically and
how they have knots have always had to be much
more creative whereas to have they function in terms of money.
One of the things that I argue and how I
teach history is that racism, sexism, classism equals prejudice plus

(17:51):
the use in the abuse of power. Everyone has prejudice.
And when I say prejudice, I mean you may not
like red meat. That's that's your own prejudice. I mean,
for whatever reason, you may at late meat, or you
may not like the New Orleans Saints because you just
don't like them. But the real issue is the use
of the abuse of power. And what that means is
if I am a New Orleans Saints fan and you
are one of my students, Jeff, and I give you

(18:12):
an F in my class because I have the power
to use it and abuse it to give you an
F because I'm holding my prejudice against you. Then that
creates a problem. And when we talk about the us
and abusive power of what we're saying is we're talking
about the creation of policies and policies dictate laws, and
so the laws of this nation have failed to protect

(18:32):
the least amongst us, the Black America, Brown America women,
pool whites, the First Nations, and Native groups l g B,
t q I. The laws have failed to protect them
because at the end of the day, this nation was
based on white Anglo Saxon Protestant male ideas. I was

(18:59):
just raised with an interest in other cultures, whatever it
may be. I mean, I'm talking. I mean, you could
be going from Russia to Asia, Africa, whatever, and so
I find it interesting that there's a lot of people
that just aren't interested in other cultures. There's so you
know what I mean, they're so locked into their own.
That's what fascinated me with this world. I was like,

(19:21):
oh my goodness, this is incredible. And the fact that
it was in Atlanta, Maurice under my nose, in a
city that I grew up in all these years, and
a true crime and and literally miles away an you know,
I'm in Decatur, Georgia. You know a lot of this
is happening on the west side or the southwest side.
So anyway, I just I'm constantly reflecting on that, and

(19:42):
it's just I'm just like And it was different to
Maurice because a lot of people get obsessed with stories.
I wasn't obsessed with this. I would move on and
move away, but this story always seemed to come back
and grab me and find me and say no, you
need to tell me. So I'm a static we get
a chance to tell this story. We don't know how
time works, we don't know how it will move forward.

(20:04):
And right now, right here, you're doing this work and
it is going to be recorded and it is going
to be released. And the cool thing about it is
you have a different network that because it's you. Because
black folks are interested in black history in Atlanta, it's
also going to teach some something. So you know, when
someone googles my name, what they know is they know
I do African American history. They know I do political

(20:26):
history of American South, they know I do Atlanta. They
know it's black. They know that about me. So for
certain demographics, no matter what I do, they're like, I
don't want to hear what he has to say because
he's gonna come with that leftist, extremist kind of stuff. Whatever,
whether it is that or not doesn't really matter. But
with you. Your own communities are going to support you,

(20:46):
and that that's a vast community right there. So sometimes
it takes a Jewish kid from Decayta, Georgia whose mother
and father met at the high est and whose dad
is picking up his sister and nieces. Woman. I mean, hey,
you were born for this, I mean the meeting of
your parents and what all this stuff does, and it

(21:06):
comes back to you. You've chosen for this and I
look forward to, you know, helping you promote this kind
of story. But you're the right clearly, you're the right
person for the job, because we were out here talking
about it. I'm saying that to say that I'm not
promoting time or chance, but I do believe that there's
something bigger working. You know, when you do these types
of pieces, documentaries, these limited podcasts, you have this material.

(21:30):
You're trying to find this story and what we realized
is it really is about this friendship that developed between
this white Jewish Southern kid from Decatur and this black
hustler turn preacher from Atlanta. And just over time, I
mean I go in, you know, to track down this story,
Maurice and to tell it because I'm so excited because

(21:52):
i love true crime so much. But ultimately, I'm having
dinner with Gordon Williams and his family. I'm meeting his children,
We're going to film premiers together. He's meeting my family,
He's meeting my wife and kids. So I mean, it
really develops into this friendship. What starts as research and
an education just turns into something so much more. Listen, man,

(22:16):
it is always a beautiful thing. You know the old
A Team show Hannibal used to say, I just love
when a plan comes together. But what you are exemplifying
and what you embody is what we call research to practice.
It's not just about the story. You have thoroughly immersed
yourself so truly understand this. And basically you have this
story in your mind. You're connecting with all of those

(22:38):
to make sure that the story is told correctly. And
now you're able to take what's in your mind and
present it to the rest of the world so they
can see the story there. And also it's it's the
background in history and the situation they're in. I mean,
you say, oh, these people are criminal, but you've got
to look at the four hundred years that fall behind him,
and you've got to look at the education that's afford
them and key ingredient in all humanity, which is survival.

(22:59):
Some people are just trying to survive for their families.
And and so he really got and then what we
ultimately must do is we have to look at each person,
not by the face and not that a skinned but
there's a name, and there's a storage everyway. This is
Gordon Williams Senior. This is his story, and there this
is J. D. Hudson. And so not every cop is

(23:20):
going to be the same. Every hustler is going to
be the same. And you know, wherever we go anywhere,
there's going to be a name to the face of
the story that we're telling. And that's vital. There's a
really good book called The Warmth of other Sons by
Isabella Wilkerson, and one of the stories he tells is
about this black family in Limestone, Alabama, which is North Alabama,

(23:41):
and how the youngest child was a feeble child and
he would never be suited to do farm work because
he was just a small framed feeble child. And so
they tell the story on how this family moves north.
I think they moved to Ohio because there was southern
and there was not a lot of education. When the
youngest child went to school, his name him was James Owens,

(24:02):
but the teachers named him Jesse because they called him
j C. They named him Jesse. And so this becomes
the same Jesse Owens who his feeble body and rule
Alabama sharecrop and may have not have meant anything, but
in another environment he becomes the fastest man in the
world as debunks the idea of white supremacy by beating
the Nazis. So what I'm saying is that given different

(24:25):
situations and opportunities, Chicken Man could have been mayor of Columbus, Ohio,
or the head of a multimillion dollar corporation exactly, or
vice versa. The heads of these corporations could ended up impoverished,
in prison or whatever it is. So you use the word, well,
there's a lot of complexity to all of these stories,
but ultimately this is just a great heist. It's a
great high it's a great story to tell. Thank you

(24:51):
for listening to Fight Night. We hope you joined us
for our next podcast about a professor who conducted over
fifty interviews with the most infamous mass murderer in South
Carolina history. It's called pee Wee. Gaskins was not My friend.

(25:17):
Fight Night is a joint production from My Heart Radio,
Will Packer Media and Doghouse Pictures in association with Psychopia Pictures.
Produced and hosted by Jeff Keating. Executive producers are Will Packer,
James Lopez, Kenny Burns, Dan Bush, Lars Jacobson, and Noel Brown.
Supervising producer is Taylor Shoyne. Story editors are Noel Brown

(25:38):
and Dan Bush. Written by Jeff Keeting and Jim Roberts.
Edited by Matt Owen. Mixing and sound designed by Jeremiah
Kolanni Prescott. Music written and performed by The Diamond Street Players.
Additional music by Ben Lovett. Audio archives courtesy of WSB
News Film and Video Tape Collection, Brown Media Archives, University

(25:58):
of Georgia Libraries. Special thanks to Dr Maurice Hobson and
David Davis. Fight Night is a production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, check out the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.