February 14, 2024 • 37 mins
Host Chris Moody talks to Democratic campaign operatives about how they viewed the Drudge Report -- and how they tried to influence coverage on the site. Moody speaks extensively to Tracy Sefl, an adviser to Hillary Clinton's first presidential campaign, who was probably closer to Drudge than almost any Republican at the time. If you have a great Matt Drudge story, remember to call the hotline at 301-200-2414 and tell Chris about it!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When a lot of people think of Matt Drudge, they
immediately think of the Clintons for obvious reasons. I wanted
to know what people in Clinton world thought of Drudge,
who has covered the family for more than twenty five
years and obviously not very kindly. So I started with
the ragin Cajun himself, James Carville, the architect of Bill
(00:23):
Clinton's first presidential campaign. Carville is married to Mary Madaline,
a longtime Republican operative who also knew Drudge. We heard
from her in a previous episode. Our chat got off
to an interesting start. Carville was at his farm in
Virginia and one of his dogs had pooped on the floor.
When I called the Carville Madeline household.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Poo poop, I'll get it.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Hey are you hey, christer Carville. This is Chris Moody.
It's so nice to be speaking.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I don't know Mi Chicaugo, but James is right here.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Do you recall interacting with Matt Drudge or or having
any meetings with the Clintons About Matt Drudge.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I met him at Russia in Bob's wedding. You can
imagine every conservative luminary was there. It was an actually
fun wedding. To you the truth that I remembered pretty
well anybody that was anybody in conservative America was at
that wedding and you and me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
As James Carville watched Drudge make the rounds at the party,
he found him to be fairly reserved in a group setting.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
He's not a particularly an extrovert. You know, he's a
you know, he's not much of as I recall, a
kind of a backslap of you know, good old boy,
hell of a fellow kind of thing. But he obviously
has a genius because she's still fricking relevant. Who else is?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
What did the Clintons think of Matt Drudge? Did his
reporting cause headaches for the campaign?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
He did?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
He was a very relevant person during the tribulations.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Were people in like Clinton world reading Drudge report in
talking about the Drudge apportan book?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, everybody was, yes the answer and it was relevant.
Not just we would read it, Everyone was reading it.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
How did Drudge's influence of posting news quickly on the
web change how someone like you would do your job?
Did it force campaigns to have to move faster?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Absolutely? I think the trend had already started but it
accelerated it because it allowed things to get into bloodstream.
You know that used to take thirty six hours take
three point six seconds now used to be that. You know,
you'd have a day and somebody would file and it'd
be a piece in the Times and a post of
(02:44):
you know, some column and everybody would tee off on
and so, I mean, I think the effect and Drudge
was the kind of I think I'm correct on this
is not the first had to be one of the
first real Internet celebrities. And I think the whole thing
and ohing I could do to stop it his cause
a deterioration and civic education in the country because it
(03:07):
allows people to live in their own ideological comple Joe,
and it allows you to go to read what confirms
whatever you think. And I've always thought that was.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Just kind of thinking.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
But I can tell you advanty if I think it's
good or bad. You know, I could argue that it
hadn't been good, but it's there. There's nothing you can
do about it that you can't unring the bell if
you will.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
And to give.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Drudge his credit, he was one of the first people
who ring that bell. I mean, he saw something he
was ahead of his time.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Of course, Bill Clinton isn't the only Clinton who has
had to contend with Matt Drudge. When his wife Hillary
ran for president in two thousand and eight and again
in twenty sixteen, Matt Drudge was there waiting for her.
Drudge was on Hillary's campaign radar, and like it or not,
her campaign had to keep its eye on him. In
this episode, I'll take you behind the scenes of the
(04:02):
Clinton campaign and show you something that might surprise you.
That one Hillary Clinton campaign staffer was closer to Drudge
than almost any Republican. This is Finding Matt Drudge. How
could the most powerful man in media basically just vanish
from public life? From JMW Productions and iHeartMedia. This is
(04:24):
Finding Matt Drudge. The year was two thousand and seven,
and the Drudge Report was by now one of the
most influential news sites on the Internet. Everyone in political
media read him. Didn't matter if you were left right.
(04:45):
Republican Democrat. Phelippe Rhness was a Clinton spokesman who had
started working with Hillary Clinton in two thousand and two,
and when she announced her candidacy for president five years later,
he handled press for the campaign. In addition to keeping
an eye on how the Clinton campaign covered in major
papers like The New York Times or on cable television,
the Drudge Report was unignorable. Here's Philippe.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
It was mandatory for everyone in the business, both you know,
hacks and plaques to watch what he was focusing on.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Matt Drudge loved covering the presidential primary, which involved a
favorite topic of his, the Clintons, and a dynamic newcomer
to the national stage, Illinois Senator Barack Obama. So he
covered the Democratic primary intensely, which meant that people like Rhinus,
like it or not, would have to keep a close
eye on the Drudge Report. Every time Drudge posted something new,
(05:40):
political reporters who were glued to the site all day
would follow up with the Clinton team.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
He could, in fifty words, let everyone's tear on fire.
It was the perfect sort of combination.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It was.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
He was a soele usive figure that had you know,
definitely had sources on our Republican side, right. He has
been right. Sometimes he presses the button and gets everyone excited,
and it's just it's a simple topic, percent it simply
it's basically tailored me for the media environment of that
(06:16):
time and again he could. There's no reason to think
that he couldn't do the same thing now if he
chose to. Clearly, at some point he chose not to.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Could he shift the energy of a campaign or a
news cycle.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
He absolutely could. He was effectively an assignment editor, no
different than if an editor in their own newsroom walked
over and said, I just got a call from a
source that says X, go check out X. The only
difference was it was Drudge and not someone in the room.
(06:52):
You'd hear ten other reporters, half of them say I
just saw him the wire, and you know, is that true?
And I think they would believe Drudge more than they
would believe any campaign. I do remember at one point
having the the the hard conversation with myself about making
(07:13):
him my homepage, because I you know, it was so
geared to that. I think with him it was just
an energy, not a good energy, But there was a
momentum that took hold in a way that nothing else did.
He created nervous energy like nobody else among every corner
(07:39):
of your world, with your colleagues, with your bosses, with reporters,
with donors, with supporters. Nothing good ever, Camp it's so
you're like, oh, good a siren, this is gonna be helpful.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Presidential campaigns set up their press shops based on a
set of standards and ground rules that they can expect
from the press. Even though mainstream journalists might report negative
information about a campaign, they at least call and ask
for comment, They use multiple sources to confirm information, and
most of all, the Clinton campaign could reach out to
them and complain if they felt it was warranted. But
(08:18):
Matt Drudge didn't play by those rules, and it drove
Rightinus crazy.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
With Drudge, You're not even give me the opportunity to ignore,
and he's ignoring you. He's ignoring the apparatus that people
set up to work with the media. You probably get
a fair number of people whose bosses are like, why.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Couldn't you talk to him?
Speaker 4 (08:41):
You can't just say, oh, he's Matt Drudge. He doesn't
take any calls. It's like, well, get his number. I
mean it's you get You could become resigned to it.
How his you know his modus OPERENDI. But that doesn't
mean anyone likes it, and doesn't mean that you know
a campaign manager is going to accept it. Oh I
can't get take him to lunch. Would it help if
(09:01):
I called like No, I think it would. Arbaby works
if you covid, if George Soul existed, maybe a pointless
seven press operation.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Do you know where Matt Drudge is? If you have
a great Matt Drudge story, they can shed insight into
the mysterious mogul and help us on our search. Call
us at three zero one two zero zero two four
one four and tell us about it. We may even
air your message in the final episodes of the show.
If you want us to credit you, please say so
and leave your name. As frustrating as dealing with the
(09:40):
Drudge report was, the Clinton campaign did have someone on
the inside who was secretly working with Matt Drudge. Her
name was Tracy Cephel in two thousand and four, just
a few years before Hillary Clinton launched her first campaign
for president. Tracy Sephel was a young political operative fresh
out of graduate school when she first met Matt Drudge.
(10:01):
Three years later, while working in conjunction with the Clinton campaign,
Sephel operated a secret back channel to Drudge, known at
the time to only a handful of Clinton campaign insiders.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Whenever the Clinton campaign was portrayed or as having some backchow.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
It was Tracy using aol instant messenger. Cephel regularly fed
Drudge scoops from inside the Clinton campaign, but they quickly
became more than campaign confidants over months of trading gossip
about politics in the media. You might even say the
two became friends. Sephel spoke to me about her time
with Matt Drudge, the man who nearly took down Bill
(10:39):
Clinton only a few years earlier.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
How did the Hillary Clinton campaign view the Drudge Report?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
The campaign viewed the site through almost a religious lens,
inasmuch as it was there were a lot of rituals right.
You would check it first thing in the morning. You
would pop in and look at it during the day.
You would ask questions based on what you were seeing.
(11:08):
You would try to run something down. If something caught
your interest, you would inevitably be flagged by a television
producer who saw the same link you saw, and together
you'd put together something for broadcast. It was a cyclical,
endless place of check in. I think a lot of
(11:32):
people in those days it was your homepage. In two
thousand and four, over White House Correspondence Association, you know,
the Bacchanalia weekend that used to be a thing. I
met Matt at a party and introduced myself as someone
(11:53):
who was doing the war room for the DNC for
that election, and I was I was doing the opposition
research on George W. Bush, on Dick Cheney, and on
the million stories that were being generated by those guys.
So Matt was he was interested in what my job was,
(12:17):
and he also knew that I was coming to that
political work right out of graduate school. I was not
a campaign veteran. This was my very first campaign, so
I was different, and I think that that factored into
Matt and I really clicking. I found him to be
(12:41):
really droll and observant. He was a funny guy. And
here's the other thing. I was working seven days a
week and he was always online, so we kind of
we were just kind of each other's really good pal
who talked a lot. I'm someone who can recognize the
(13:06):
absurdities in a lot of things, and I could recognize
the absurdities even within the campaign that I was working on.
I was kind of in on the jokes with matt'
That's how I would describe it. And we would talk
about people We would talk about specific members of the
(13:28):
media who he had strong opinions about, and oftentimes was
you know, pretty freaking funny in kind of making fun
of people. So we gossiped a lot. That is definitely
something we did.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
How did you communicate with him?
Speaker 5 (13:48):
Primarily we were doing this is you know, the blast
from the past. We were doing aol I am so,
I'm sure for a lot of people people you can
remember what that interface looked like. Instant messaging, man was
it was the thing, and that's primarily how we talked.
(14:10):
We got on the phone sometimes and we met in
person several times. But boy, I tell you, you can
accomplish a lot of work over instant messaging.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Their relationship grew over time, and when the Clinton campaign
launched in two thousand and seven, Sephyl had an inside
track with the most powerful man in online media and
arguably media writ large. She knew him pretty well by then,
and now she could act as a conduit between the
Clinton world and the Drudge Report.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
I was grateful to see how he viewed media and
specific members of the media. It helped me kind of
frame what I talked to him about. But beside all
of that, essentially there was a work function too. I
had a professional relationship where we were bi directional. I
(15:03):
was giving him information, he would give me information, he
would post my information, and he would tell me things
that he heard as a result of that. So we
really did have this I recognize now incredibly unique cycle
that we kind of just developed over time. We were
(15:28):
you know, there were times when we were talking basically
every day.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Why do you think he engaged with you? Was it
because you would give him things to dish about and
you could gossip about different things, and you kind of
were playing with him on it.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
I took the work seriously, but not myself. I think
he recognized that, like I was saying, you know, I
wasn't a grizzled campaign vet I was. I was somebody
new and different, and I think we clicked a lot
based on that.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
So you've been talking to him for a couple of
years and then the campaign rolls around in two thousand
and eight, and do you think that Matt Drudge was
a friend of Hillary Clinton or an enemy of her?
How was he driving the narrative in that campaign?
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Well? This was you know, every birthday, Christmas Hanukkah gift
rapped with a bow for him, Hillary running for president
was like his nirvana. I mean, this was something he
had been almost almost like longing for. Both she and
(16:40):
her husband are so formative in the existence of the
Drudge Report. He understood that these were complicated, fascinating and
prominent people who he could follow closely and shape other opinions.
(17:01):
Hillary running for president was peak mat Drudge and nothing
has been the same as what.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
It was for that and so was the stories that
he was running crafting an anti Hillary Clinton narrative at
that time.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
I think he was crafting an intensely critical persona. He
you know, he was highlighting her every misstep and ignoring
her every success. It was a lot of you know,
flubs that would get attention and next thing, you know,
(17:39):
it would be, you know, jumping over to cable news. So, yes,
he had been crafting a caricature of Hillary and her
running for president gave him latitude to expand the persona
that he was helping create to the surprise of men,
(18:00):
but not to my surprise, but to the surprise of many.
He played ball with me. He was willing to do
things that were positive for Hillary that would be interpreted
as a success for her, or a hit if you will,
in the campaign parlance. And I think people were shocked,
(18:24):
like we thought Drudge, you know, he was anti Hillary.
Why is he doing these things that are nice to her?
And it sounds silly. I mean, it sounds like a
middle school or is or something. But he really did
permit himself to be kind to her. It wasn't a
(18:44):
permanent situation, and it wasn't a failsafe situation. But there
were certainly positive successes in Hillary's favor that Matt created
or amplified, And did.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Anyone on the campaign who knew you had this relationship
with him and encourage you to try to craft the
coverage or send him articles to try to make more
favorable news articles on that site.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
One hundred and fifty thousand percent. Yes, it was a
really small group of people that knew what I was doing.
I would say less than you could count on one
hand of full time campaign staff who knew of my
relationship and who worked closely with me when we had
(19:38):
content that we wanted him to have. So it was
an interesting position for me to be in because it
was pretty secret at this point. I guess that's the
best way to say it. Chris that it was a secret.
Not a lot of people knew. I had no formal
(19:59):
title for what I was doing with the campaign. It
was kind of a secret, little satellite operation that I
was running and a few others were contributing to.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
So you are the secret Drudge whisperer.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Basically, I think that is such a funny phrase, but
it's accurate. I would say our relationship resulted in a
couple different things. I got a lot of sirens out
of Matt and your listeners who are of that era
(20:38):
will know the holy grail of the red Drudge siren,
right was everybody, stop what you're doing, Something's about to happen.
He's got the siren up. So I got a lot
of sirens up with things that I was giving him,
or things that I was about to give him. You know,
if we were going to be releasing some policy or
(21:03):
some statement or some fundraising data, he would get the
heads up. The way the Drudge Report is primarily working,
of course, is linking to articles. But what my relationship
was oftentimes creating those big giant font read siren headlines
(21:27):
at the top of the page. Those had extraordinary weight.
I don't believe that it's the same in present day,
but at the time, something at the top of the
Drudge Report may not even be a hyperlink. It could
just be text that he put up that says Hillary
crushing her fundraising numbers, and everyone would go nuts, just nuts.
(21:54):
It's hard to understate just how reverent the political world
was around the Drudge Report and something going up with
a siren and big font up at the top of
the site. I mean that was like, put aside whatever
else you're doing, this is now our priority. And that
(22:19):
was pretty intense. We accomplished a lot together, had a
lot of successes for me, I think he got a
lot of successes in terms of his influence being very solid.
It was really defined by this cycle of sharing information
(22:40):
both ways, and it was always peppered with some observations
or comedy or personal asides. We knew that we were
trafficking good information back and forth.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Campaigns have a lot of choices with which reporters to
go to, maybe with a scoop or an inside story,
Why go to Drudge and not say the New York
Times or the Associated Press or ABC News.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Place yourself in the moment where everyone's homepage was Drudge
Report dot com. Imagine just how important he was. It's
almost as if a bell would ring in every newsroom
when the red siren would come up. His scoops, his headlines,
(23:30):
his all caps shouting fonts. Those were it was like
calling the troops to duty. Reporters would jump. You would
see it jump from the screen of the Drudge Report
to the television to the dayside cable show, to a
(23:54):
wire report. He was America's assignment editor.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I think there came a time when he switched and thought,
you know what, my new bread and butter is this
guy Iack Obama, because people go nuts about this guy.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
He certainly was seeing that. He you know, he was
witnessing what we were all witnessing, this sort of you know,
the electricity around Obama's campaign. But he also was having
fun with Obama. I remember, in particular, there was a
day where then Senator Obama was going to give a
(24:31):
major speech on Iraq, and it was you know, it
was the talk of talk of the town that this
speech was going to be a really big deal, you know,
kind of a capstone moment for his campaign. But what
Drudge put up on the website was something he'd gotten
for me, which was a surge in fundraising numbers that
(24:54):
we were reporting. So he did the red alert siren,
not a out Obama's major Iraq speech, but the siren
was for you know, queen of the quarter. Hillary crushes
Obama in fundraising, and he loved that. He I mean,
(25:14):
how fun was that to essentially create something that upstaged
or stepped on Obama's prepared messaging moment That was you know,
it was It was pretty fun.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
So if you're smart about it, you can completely take
the wind out of Obama's sales just with one aim message.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
That's what we did. That is what we did. I
never really embraced this as like some sort of powerful
perch because I knew that at any moment he could
still fuck us over. He would still do it when
he could. He would screw her over, screw us over.
And I can remember other staffers, you know, the people
(26:00):
who knew about this. They would say to me, at
the end of the day, Matt Drudge is still a Republican.
And whether or not that's true, it certainly helped reign
in any sense of you know, supreme power, because for him,
the Drudge Report was performance art. That's that's what the
(26:21):
site was, and Matt appreciates comedy, and for him, there
was there was some comedy in this back and forth
and pumping up Hillary and giving her these amazing headlines
and amazing stories and sirens galore, driving so much positive coverage.
But that was never something I thought would last forever.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Did Hillary Clinton ever look at the Drudge Report?
Speaker 5 (26:47):
I don't know anyone who didn't.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Cephal and Drudge's relationship was definitely transactional and professional, but
over that time they sort of became friends, so much
so that Drudge invited her to visit him in his
condo in Miami, something very few Washington political operatives would
ever have the chance to do. Stephal took him up
on it. For years, she kept this part of her
friendship with Drudge private, and has only recently begun to
(27:18):
speak publicly about it.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
I didn't talk about the times that we spent together.
I never felt comfortable sharing that with anyone. It felt
like kind of our private relationship until you know, the
last couple of years, when it's my belief that the
site is it's not Matt's DNA the way it once was,
(27:41):
and I feel okay talking about our relationship. I really
did maintain privacy around our relationship. That felt like the
respectful thing to do. But boy, we had fun. I
mean we hung out a couple different times in memorable
ways in Miami, in DC, and at his house. He
(28:05):
had me over and a couple of my favorite memories
from being welcomed and invited into his home. He told
me I was the third woman to ever set foot
in his place. I mean, that's not something anyone would
want on their gravestone, but I certainly recognized that pat was.
That was quite something. And you know, he lived in
(28:30):
the he had maybe he still does, this beautiful condo
in downtown Miami, sleek and modern and very chic. And
you know, to have someone welcome you into their home,
I think it says something about their trust in you.
So I appreciated that he and my husband and I
(28:52):
all had dinner too. I mean, that was fun. That
was We had a good time. There was a lot
of gossip and stories and you know, a very easy,
friendly relationship, and I recognize how unusual that was. We
spoke a lot about cats. I think we were sharing
(29:14):
photos too. You know, he loved his cats. At the
end of the day, He's a guy, just a person
as much as he is this creature that people have
made him into. Some of what we did was just
kind of mundane, hanging out, going to a restaurant, sitting
and talking, driving around in his convertible, you know, tooling
(29:38):
around Miami, or spending time just catching up. I think
we really knew each other as well as we wanted
the other person to know us.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
This was Washington, after all, a city where nothing stays
secret forever. In October two thousand and seven, the New
York Times ran a story that dished everything about Sephal's
relationship with Drudge.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
My cover was blown at that point, and it certainly
changed my relationships with political media.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
And when the New York Times reported on your relationship
with Matt Drudge, how did Matt respond to that?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
Well, we knew the article was coming. He knew, I knew.
We agreed that neither of us was going to comment.
He got the story before it was even online, so
he saw the finished piece. He saw that, you know, indeed,
neither of us had commented. He shared it with me.
(30:35):
It went live, It captured everyone's attention, and there was
a you know, a little mini frenzy around that. I
think we were both satisfied of the other's decision to
not comment, so that was definitely collaborative.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Hillary Clinton ended up losing the Democratic primary to Barack
Obama in two thousand and eight. She officially dropped out
of the race, urging her supporters to rally behind him.
Speaker 6 (31:03):
Today, as I suspend my campaign, I congratulate him on
the victory he has won and the extraordinary race he
has run. I endorse him and throw my full support
fail him.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Matt Drudge was in the audience that day. Cephel had
brought Drudge as her plus one. It was a rough
day for Sephel, who had poured her heart and soul
into the campaign. It would also be the last time
she ever saw Matt Drudge in person.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
I know. The last time I saw him in person
was when we attended Hillary's concession speech. I remember that
very well. June seventh, two thousand and eight. He picked
me up, we drove to the event. We tried to
hang out in the back, and pretty soon his presence
(31:57):
was noted and our cover was kind of blown. We
did not get to just hang out in the back.
But that's the last time we were together.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
With your hybrid relationship both professional and friendly with him
when you were in this time of working so hard
for a candidate and having to face the day of
that candidate dropping out. Did he serve a role as
a friend to you? Was he comforting or was he
there more as a news observer?
Speaker 5 (32:26):
I think she was there as Matt the human being.
I think he truly wanted to see and hear what
that event was like. I think in many ways he
had been a part of it. I can understand why
if you work day in and day out on something,
(32:46):
you want to see it through its see it to
the end. And that's what he did.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
And in front of him, this person that he knows
you a friend, if you can want to call it
that right, is probably going through or something really tough.
Did you find him to be emotionally supportive?
Speaker 5 (33:05):
Yeah? I think he was perfectly appropriately sensitive to how
I felt about her dropping out and conceding the race.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Sepha looks back on those days with Drudge is a
special time. She hasn't spoken to him in many years.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
We talked a lot about what he was looking forward
to doing post campaign, and I like to think that
that's kind of where he is now he's living the
good life. He's enjoying the finer things in the world.
He's living off of the profits of this thing that
he created, for better or for worse, the good the
(33:46):
not good. And I think that he saw two thousand
and eight as his peak as well. I think he
was kind of fried and ready to get away. Like
an athlete, you're at your pea at some point in
your career, but you're not retired yet. I think that's
what his arc felt like to me from that point
(34:08):
in time, in that two thousand and eight era up
to today. It's you know, he's an athlete whose best
years might be behind him, but he's still that drudge.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
So do you know where he's living now?
Speaker 5 (34:26):
I don't. I can imagine he has his favorite places,
I know, the places where he's been spotted or where
he has a home, and I know he likes to travel,
so perhaps he's hopping around. But this is a guy
who's been on He's been in on the joke the
(34:47):
whole way, So wherever he might be, he's still keeping
one finger on the pulse, maybe just not with as
much wild abandon as he once did.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Do you think he still is involved with the site
on a daily basis.
Speaker 5 (35:04):
I think it depends sometimes, maybe most of the time,
I don't think so. I don't think the site represents
the tone of the guy that I knew.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
As someone who has spent time with him. For everybody else,
he's elusive, he's mysterious. Why why do you think he
keeps the cards so close to his vest I.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
Think he's seen that it worked. It elevated him, It
created a persona mystique that he could shape. He knew
that if he was going to come to DC to
attend Hillary's concession speech, he knew that someone would see him.
He knew that that would be written as the elusive
(35:53):
Matt has appeared in public. He was the master of
his own profile, and I think he saw the benefits
of being the mystery man. He laughed a lot about
the reporting others did about him. You know, if a
book came out or some sort of analysis appeared, he
(36:17):
would laugh. He would say, to me, that guy has
no idea what he's talking about. And you know, so
he was reading what was being written about him, and
he didn't care that it wasn't accurate. I think he
just recognized that that persona was a valuable persona. I
think he felt like somebody who could, you know, kind
(36:41):
of rub their hands together and say, my work here
is done. I've created this. I'm the king, you know,
I rule the world.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
I'm done.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
I think he was hanging his own mission accomplished.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Banner turned out two thousand and eight was really just
the warm up act for Matt Drudge. Just a few
years later, Donald Trump would give Drudge a chance to
take his legacy even higher, to become a presidential kingmaker.
This is Finding Matt Drudge. Stay tuned. Remember to call
(37:38):
us at three zero one two zero zero two four
one four if you have a great tip or a
great Matt Drudge story. We'll track down the tips for
the final episodes of the show.
When a lot of people think of Matt Drudge, they
immediately think of the Clintons for obvious reasons. I wanted
to know what people in Clinton world thought of Drudge,
who has covered the family for more than twenty five
years and obviously not very kindly. So I started with
the ragin Cajun himself, James Carville, the architect of Bill
(00:23):
Clinton's first presidential campaign. Carville is married to Mary Madaline,
a longtime Republican operative who also knew Drudge. We heard
from her in a previous episode. Our chat got off
to an interesting start. Carville was at his farm in
Virginia and one of his dogs had pooped on the floor.
When I called the Carville Madeline household.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Poo poop, I'll get it.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Hey are you hey, christer Carville. This is Chris Moody.
It's so nice to be speaking.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I don't know Mi Chicaugo, but James is right here.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Do you recall interacting with Matt Drudge or or having
any meetings with the Clintons About Matt Drudge.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I met him at Russia in Bob's wedding. You can
imagine every conservative luminary was there. It was an actually
fun wedding. To you the truth that I remembered pretty
well anybody that was anybody in conservative America was at
that wedding and you and me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
As James Carville watched Drudge make the rounds at the party,
he found him to be fairly reserved in a group setting.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
He's not a particularly an extrovert. You know, he's a
you know, he's not much of as I recall, a
kind of a backslap of you know, good old boy,
hell of a fellow kind of thing. But he obviously
has a genius because she's still fricking relevant. Who else is?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
What did the Clintons think of Matt Drudge? Did his
reporting cause headaches for the campaign?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
He did?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
He was a very relevant person during the tribulations.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Were people in like Clinton world reading Drudge report in
talking about the Drudge apportan book?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, everybody was, yes the answer and it was relevant.
Not just we would read it, Everyone was reading it.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
How did Drudge's influence of posting news quickly on the
web change how someone like you would do your job?
Did it force campaigns to have to move faster?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Absolutely? I think the trend had already started but it
accelerated it because it allowed things to get into bloodstream.
You know that used to take thirty six hours take
three point six seconds now used to be that. You know,
you'd have a day and somebody would file and it'd
be a piece in the Times and a post of
(02:44):
you know, some column and everybody would tee off on
and so, I mean, I think the effect and Drudge
was the kind of I think I'm correct on this
is not the first had to be one of the
first real Internet celebrities. And I think the whole thing
and ohing I could do to stop it his cause
a deterioration and civic education in the country because it
(03:07):
allows people to live in their own ideological comple Joe,
and it allows you to go to read what confirms
whatever you think. And I've always thought that was.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Just kind of thinking.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
But I can tell you advanty if I think it's
good or bad. You know, I could argue that it
hadn't been good, but it's there. There's nothing you can
do about it that you can't unring the bell if
you will.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
And to give.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Drudge his credit, he was one of the first people
who ring that bell. I mean, he saw something he
was ahead of his time.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Of course, Bill Clinton isn't the only Clinton who has
had to contend with Matt Drudge. When his wife Hillary
ran for president in two thousand and eight and again
in twenty sixteen, Matt Drudge was there waiting for her.
Drudge was on Hillary's campaign radar, and like it or not,
her campaign had to keep its eye on him. In
this episode, I'll take you behind the scenes of the
(04:02):
Clinton campaign and show you something that might surprise you.
That one Hillary Clinton campaign staffer was closer to Drudge
than almost any Republican. This is Finding Matt Drudge. How
could the most powerful man in media basically just vanish
from public life? From JMW Productions and iHeartMedia. This is
(04:24):
Finding Matt Drudge. The year was two thousand and seven,
and the Drudge Report was by now one of the
most influential news sites on the Internet. Everyone in political
media read him. Didn't matter if you were left right.
(04:45):
Republican Democrat. Phelippe Rhness was a Clinton spokesman who had
started working with Hillary Clinton in two thousand and two,
and when she announced her candidacy for president five years later,
he handled press for the campaign. In addition to keeping
an eye on how the Clinton campaign covered in major
papers like The New York Times or on cable television,
the Drudge Report was unignorable. Here's Philippe.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
It was mandatory for everyone in the business, both you know,
hacks and plaques to watch what he was focusing on.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Matt Drudge loved covering the presidential primary, which involved a
favorite topic of his, the Clintons, and a dynamic newcomer
to the national stage, Illinois Senator Barack Obama. So he
covered the Democratic primary intensely, which meant that people like Rhinus,
like it or not, would have to keep a close
eye on the Drudge Report. Every time Drudge posted something new,
(05:40):
political reporters who were glued to the site all day
would follow up with the Clinton team.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
He could, in fifty words, let everyone's tear on fire.
It was the perfect sort of combination.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It was.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
He was a soele usive figure that had you know,
definitely had sources on our Republican side, right. He has
been right. Sometimes he presses the button and gets everyone excited,
and it's just it's a simple topic, percent it simply
it's basically tailored me for the media environment of that
(06:16):
time and again he could. There's no reason to think
that he couldn't do the same thing now if he
chose to. Clearly, at some point he chose not to.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Could he shift the energy of a campaign or a
news cycle.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
He absolutely could. He was effectively an assignment editor, no
different than if an editor in their own newsroom walked
over and said, I just got a call from a
source that says X, go check out X. The only
difference was it was Drudge and not someone in the room.
(06:52):
You'd hear ten other reporters, half of them say I
just saw him the wire, and you know, is that true?
And I think they would believe Drudge more than they
would believe any campaign. I do remember at one point
having the the the hard conversation with myself about making
(07:13):
him my homepage, because I you know, it was so
geared to that. I think with him it was just
an energy, not a good energy, But there was a
momentum that took hold in a way that nothing else did.
He created nervous energy like nobody else among every corner
(07:39):
of your world, with your colleagues, with your bosses, with reporters,
with donors, with supporters. Nothing good ever, Camp it's so
you're like, oh, good a siren, this is gonna be helpful.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Presidential campaigns set up their press shops based on a
set of standards and ground rules that they can expect
from the press. Even though mainstream journalists might report negative
information about a campaign, they at least call and ask
for comment, They use multiple sources to confirm information, and
most of all, the Clinton campaign could reach out to
them and complain if they felt it was warranted. But
(08:18):
Matt Drudge didn't play by those rules, and it drove
Rightinus crazy.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
With Drudge, You're not even give me the opportunity to ignore,
and he's ignoring you. He's ignoring the apparatus that people
set up to work with the media. You probably get
a fair number of people whose bosses are like, why.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Couldn't you talk to him?
Speaker 4 (08:41):
You can't just say, oh, he's Matt Drudge. He doesn't
take any calls. It's like, well, get his number. I
mean it's you get You could become resigned to it.
How his you know his modus OPERENDI. But that doesn't
mean anyone likes it, and doesn't mean that you know
a campaign manager is going to accept it. Oh I
can't get take him to lunch. Would it help if
(09:01):
I called like No, I think it would. Arbaby works
if you covid, if George Soul existed, maybe a pointless
seven press operation.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Do you know where Matt Drudge is? If you have
a great Matt Drudge story, they can shed insight into
the mysterious mogul and help us on our search. Call
us at three zero one two zero zero two four
one four and tell us about it. We may even
air your message in the final episodes of the show.
If you want us to credit you, please say so
and leave your name. As frustrating as dealing with the
(09:40):
Drudge report was, the Clinton campaign did have someone on
the inside who was secretly working with Matt Drudge. Her
name was Tracy Cephel in two thousand and four, just
a few years before Hillary Clinton launched her first campaign
for president. Tracy Sephel was a young political operative fresh
out of graduate school when she first met Matt Drudge.
(10:01):
Three years later, while working in conjunction with the Clinton campaign,
Sephel operated a secret back channel to Drudge, known at
the time to only a handful of Clinton campaign insiders.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Whenever the Clinton campaign was portrayed or as having some backchow.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
It was Tracy using aol instant messenger. Cephel regularly fed
Drudge scoops from inside the Clinton campaign, but they quickly
became more than campaign confidants over months of trading gossip
about politics in the media. You might even say the
two became friends. Sephel spoke to me about her time
with Matt Drudge, the man who nearly took down Bill
(10:39):
Clinton only a few years earlier.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
How did the Hillary Clinton campaign view the Drudge Report?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
The campaign viewed the site through almost a religious lens,
inasmuch as it was there were a lot of rituals right.
You would check it first thing in the morning. You
would pop in and look at it during the day.
You would ask questions based on what you were seeing.
(11:08):
You would try to run something down. If something caught
your interest, you would inevitably be flagged by a television
producer who saw the same link you saw, and together
you'd put together something for broadcast. It was a cyclical,
endless place of check in. I think a lot of
(11:32):
people in those days it was your homepage. In two
thousand and four, over White House Correspondence Association, you know,
the Bacchanalia weekend that used to be a thing. I
met Matt at a party and introduced myself as someone
(11:53):
who was doing the war room for the DNC for
that election, and I was I was doing the opposition
research on George W. Bush, on Dick Cheney, and on
the million stories that were being generated by those guys.
So Matt was he was interested in what my job was,
(12:17):
and he also knew that I was coming to that
political work right out of graduate school. I was not
a campaign veteran. This was my very first campaign, so
I was different, and I think that that factored into
Matt and I really clicking. I found him to be
(12:41):
really droll and observant. He was a funny guy. And
here's the other thing. I was working seven days a
week and he was always online, so we kind of
we were just kind of each other's really good pal
who talked a lot. I'm someone who can recognize the
(13:06):
absurdities in a lot of things, and I could recognize
the absurdities even within the campaign that I was working on.
I was kind of in on the jokes with matt'
That's how I would describe it. And we would talk
about people We would talk about specific members of the
(13:28):
media who he had strong opinions about, and oftentimes was
you know, pretty freaking funny in kind of making fun
of people. So we gossiped a lot. That is definitely
something we did.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
How did you communicate with him?
Speaker 5 (13:48):
Primarily we were doing this is you know, the blast
from the past. We were doing aol I am so,
I'm sure for a lot of people people you can
remember what that interface looked like. Instant messaging, man was
it was the thing, and that's primarily how we talked.
(14:10):
We got on the phone sometimes and we met in
person several times. But boy, I tell you, you can
accomplish a lot of work over instant messaging.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Their relationship grew over time, and when the Clinton campaign
launched in two thousand and seven, Sephyl had an inside
track with the most powerful man in online media and
arguably media writ large. She knew him pretty well by then,
and now she could act as a conduit between the
Clinton world and the Drudge Report.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
I was grateful to see how he viewed media and
specific members of the media. It helped me kind of
frame what I talked to him about. But beside all
of that, essentially there was a work function too. I
had a professional relationship where we were bi directional. I
(15:03):
was giving him information, he would give me information, he
would post my information, and he would tell me things
that he heard as a result of that. So we
really did have this I recognize now incredibly unique cycle
that we kind of just developed over time. We were
(15:28):
you know, there were times when we were talking basically
every day.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Why do you think he engaged with you? Was it
because you would give him things to dish about and
you could gossip about different things, and you kind of
were playing with him on it.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
I took the work seriously, but not myself. I think
he recognized that, like I was saying, you know, I
wasn't a grizzled campaign vet I was. I was somebody
new and different, and I think we clicked a lot
based on that.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
So you've been talking to him for a couple of
years and then the campaign rolls around in two thousand
and eight, and do you think that Matt Drudge was
a friend of Hillary Clinton or an enemy of her?
How was he driving the narrative in that campaign?
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Well? This was you know, every birthday, Christmas Hanukkah gift
rapped with a bow for him, Hillary running for president
was like his nirvana. I mean, this was something he
had been almost almost like longing for. Both she and
(16:40):
her husband are so formative in the existence of the
Drudge Report. He understood that these were complicated, fascinating and
prominent people who he could follow closely and shape other opinions.
(17:01):
Hillary running for president was peak mat Drudge and nothing
has been the same as what.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
It was for that and so was the stories that
he was running crafting an anti Hillary Clinton narrative at
that time.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
I think he was crafting an intensely critical persona. He
you know, he was highlighting her every misstep and ignoring
her every success. It was a lot of you know,
flubs that would get attention and next thing, you know,
(17:39):
it would be, you know, jumping over to cable news. So, yes,
he had been crafting a caricature of Hillary and her
running for president gave him latitude to expand the persona
that he was helping create to the surprise of men,
(18:00):
but not to my surprise, but to the surprise of many.
He played ball with me. He was willing to do
things that were positive for Hillary that would be interpreted
as a success for her, or a hit if you will,
in the campaign parlance. And I think people were shocked,
(18:24):
like we thought Drudge, you know, he was anti Hillary.
Why is he doing these things that are nice to her?
And it sounds silly. I mean, it sounds like a
middle school or is or something. But he really did
permit himself to be kind to her. It wasn't a
(18:44):
permanent situation, and it wasn't a failsafe situation. But there
were certainly positive successes in Hillary's favor that Matt created
or amplified, And did.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Anyone on the campaign who knew you had this relationship
with him and encourage you to try to craft the
coverage or send him articles to try to make more
favorable news articles on that site.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
One hundred and fifty thousand percent. Yes, it was a
really small group of people that knew what I was doing.
I would say less than you could count on one
hand of full time campaign staff who knew of my
relationship and who worked closely with me when we had
(19:38):
content that we wanted him to have. So it was
an interesting position for me to be in because it
was pretty secret at this point. I guess that's the
best way to say it. Chris that it was a secret.
Not a lot of people knew. I had no formal
(19:59):
title for what I was doing with the campaign. It
was kind of a secret, little satellite operation that I
was running and a few others were contributing to.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
So you are the secret Drudge whisperer.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Basically, I think that is such a funny phrase, but
it's accurate. I would say our relationship resulted in a
couple different things. I got a lot of sirens out
of Matt and your listeners who are of that era
(20:38):
will know the holy grail of the red Drudge siren,
right was everybody, stop what you're doing, Something's about to happen.
He's got the siren up. So I got a lot
of sirens up with things that I was giving him,
or things that I was about to give him. You know,
if we were going to be releasing some policy or
(21:03):
some statement or some fundraising data, he would get the
heads up. The way the Drudge Report is primarily working,
of course, is linking to articles. But what my relationship
was oftentimes creating those big giant font read siren headlines
(21:27):
at the top of the page. Those had extraordinary weight.
I don't believe that it's the same in present day,
but at the time, something at the top of the
Drudge Report may not even be a hyperlink. It could
just be text that he put up that says Hillary
crushing her fundraising numbers, and everyone would go nuts, just nuts.
(21:54):
It's hard to understate just how reverent the political world
was around the Drudge Report and something going up with
a siren and big font up at the top of
the site. I mean that was like, put aside whatever
else you're doing, this is now our priority. And that
(22:19):
was pretty intense. We accomplished a lot together, had a
lot of successes for me, I think he got a
lot of successes in terms of his influence being very solid.
It was really defined by this cycle of sharing information
(22:40):
both ways, and it was always peppered with some observations
or comedy or personal asides. We knew that we were
trafficking good information back and forth.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Campaigns have a lot of choices with which reporters to
go to, maybe with a scoop or an inside story,
Why go to Drudge and not say the New York
Times or the Associated Press or ABC News.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Place yourself in the moment where everyone's homepage was Drudge
Report dot com. Imagine just how important he was. It's
almost as if a bell would ring in every newsroom
when the red siren would come up. His scoops, his headlines,
(23:30):
his all caps shouting fonts. Those were it was like
calling the troops to duty. Reporters would jump. You would
see it jump from the screen of the Drudge Report
to the television to the dayside cable show, to a
(23:54):
wire report. He was America's assignment editor.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I think there came a time when he switched and thought,
you know what, my new bread and butter is this
guy Iack Obama, because people go nuts about this guy.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
He certainly was seeing that. He you know, he was
witnessing what we were all witnessing, this sort of you know,
the electricity around Obama's campaign. But he also was having
fun with Obama. I remember, in particular, there was a
day where then Senator Obama was going to give a
(24:31):
major speech on Iraq, and it was you know, it
was the talk of talk of the town that this
speech was going to be a really big deal, you know,
kind of a capstone moment for his campaign. But what
Drudge put up on the website was something he'd gotten
for me, which was a surge in fundraising numbers that
(24:54):
we were reporting. So he did the red alert siren,
not a out Obama's major Iraq speech, but the siren
was for you know, queen of the quarter. Hillary crushes
Obama in fundraising, and he loved that. He I mean,
(25:14):
how fun was that to essentially create something that upstaged
or stepped on Obama's prepared messaging moment That was you know,
it was It was pretty fun.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
So if you're smart about it, you can completely take
the wind out of Obama's sales just with one aim message.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
That's what we did. That is what we did. I
never really embraced this as like some sort of powerful
perch because I knew that at any moment he could
still fuck us over. He would still do it when
he could. He would screw her over, screw us over.
And I can remember other staffers, you know, the people
(26:00):
who knew about this. They would say to me, at
the end of the day, Matt Drudge is still a Republican.
And whether or not that's true, it certainly helped reign
in any sense of you know, supreme power, because for him,
the Drudge Report was performance art. That's that's what the
(26:21):
site was, and Matt appreciates comedy, and for him, there
was there was some comedy in this back and forth
and pumping up Hillary and giving her these amazing headlines
and amazing stories and sirens galore, driving so much positive coverage.
But that was never something I thought would last forever.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Did Hillary Clinton ever look at the Drudge Report?
Speaker 5 (26:47):
I don't know anyone who didn't.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Cephal and Drudge's relationship was definitely transactional and professional, but
over that time they sort of became friends, so much
so that Drudge invited her to visit him in his
condo in Miami, something very few Washington political operatives would
ever have the chance to do. Stephal took him up
on it. For years, she kept this part of her
friendship with Drudge private, and has only recently begun to
(27:18):
speak publicly about it.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
I didn't talk about the times that we spent together.
I never felt comfortable sharing that with anyone. It felt
like kind of our private relationship until you know, the
last couple of years, when it's my belief that the
site is it's not Matt's DNA the way it once was,
(27:41):
and I feel okay talking about our relationship. I really
did maintain privacy around our relationship. That felt like the
respectful thing to do. But boy, we had fun. I
mean we hung out a couple different times in memorable
ways in Miami, in DC, and at his house. He
(28:05):
had me over and a couple of my favorite memories
from being welcomed and invited into his home. He told
me I was the third woman to ever set foot
in his place. I mean, that's not something anyone would
want on their gravestone, but I certainly recognized that pat was.
That was quite something. And you know, he lived in
(28:30):
the he had maybe he still does, this beautiful condo
in downtown Miami, sleek and modern and very chic. And
you know, to have someone welcome you into their home,
I think it says something about their trust in you.
So I appreciated that he and my husband and I
(28:52):
all had dinner too. I mean, that was fun. That
was We had a good time. There was a lot
of gossip and stories and you know, a very easy,
friendly relationship, and I recognize how unusual that was. We
spoke a lot about cats. I think we were sharing
(29:14):
photos too. You know, he loved his cats. At the
end of the day, He's a guy, just a person
as much as he is this creature that people have
made him into. Some of what we did was just
kind of mundane, hanging out, going to a restaurant, sitting
and talking, driving around in his convertible, you know, tooling
(29:38):
around Miami, or spending time just catching up. I think
we really knew each other as well as we wanted
the other person to know us.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
This was Washington, after all, a city where nothing stays
secret forever. In October two thousand and seven, the New
York Times ran a story that dished everything about Sephal's
relationship with Drudge.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
My cover was blown at that point, and it certainly
changed my relationships with political media.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
And when the New York Times reported on your relationship
with Matt Drudge, how did Matt respond to that?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
Well, we knew the article was coming. He knew, I knew.
We agreed that neither of us was going to comment.
He got the story before it was even online, so
he saw the finished piece. He saw that, you know, indeed,
neither of us had commented. He shared it with me.
(30:35):
It went live, It captured everyone's attention, and there was
a you know, a little mini frenzy around that. I
think we were both satisfied of the other's decision to
not comment, so that was definitely collaborative.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Hillary Clinton ended up losing the Democratic primary to Barack
Obama in two thousand and eight. She officially dropped out
of the race, urging her supporters to rally behind him.
Speaker 6 (31:03):
Today, as I suspend my campaign, I congratulate him on
the victory he has won and the extraordinary race he
has run. I endorse him and throw my full support
fail him.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Matt Drudge was in the audience that day. Cephel had
brought Drudge as her plus one. It was a rough
day for Sephel, who had poured her heart and soul
into the campaign. It would also be the last time
she ever saw Matt Drudge in person.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
I know. The last time I saw him in person
was when we attended Hillary's concession speech. I remember that
very well. June seventh, two thousand and eight. He picked
me up, we drove to the event. We tried to
hang out in the back, and pretty soon his presence
(31:57):
was noted and our cover was kind of blown. We
did not get to just hang out in the back.
But that's the last time we were together.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
With your hybrid relationship both professional and friendly with him
when you were in this time of working so hard
for a candidate and having to face the day of
that candidate dropping out. Did he serve a role as
a friend to you? Was he comforting or was he
there more as a news observer?
Speaker 5 (32:26):
I think she was there as Matt the human being.
I think he truly wanted to see and hear what
that event was like. I think in many ways he
had been a part of it. I can understand why
if you work day in and day out on something,
(32:46):
you want to see it through its see it to
the end. And that's what he did.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
And in front of him, this person that he knows
you a friend, if you can want to call it
that right, is probably going through or something really tough.
Did you find him to be emotionally supportive?
Speaker 5 (33:05):
Yeah? I think he was perfectly appropriately sensitive to how
I felt about her dropping out and conceding the race.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Sepha looks back on those days with Drudge is a
special time. She hasn't spoken to him in many years.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
We talked a lot about what he was looking forward
to doing post campaign, and I like to think that
that's kind of where he is now he's living the
good life. He's enjoying the finer things in the world.
He's living off of the profits of this thing that
he created, for better or for worse, the good the
(33:46):
not good. And I think that he saw two thousand
and eight as his peak as well. I think he
was kind of fried and ready to get away. Like
an athlete, you're at your pea at some point in
your career, but you're not retired yet. I think that's
what his arc felt like to me from that point
(34:08):
in time, in that two thousand and eight era up
to today. It's you know, he's an athlete whose best
years might be behind him, but he's still that drudge.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
So do you know where he's living now?
Speaker 5 (34:26):
I don't. I can imagine he has his favorite places,
I know, the places where he's been spotted or where
he has a home, and I know he likes to travel,
so perhaps he's hopping around. But this is a guy
who's been on He's been in on the joke the
(34:47):
whole way, So wherever he might be, he's still keeping
one finger on the pulse, maybe just not with as
much wild abandon as he once did.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Do you think he still is involved with the site
on a daily basis.
Speaker 5 (35:04):
I think it depends sometimes, maybe most of the time,
I don't think so. I don't think the site represents
the tone of the guy that I knew.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
As someone who has spent time with him. For everybody else,
he's elusive, he's mysterious. Why why do you think he
keeps the cards so close to his vest I.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
Think he's seen that it worked. It elevated him, It
created a persona mystique that he could shape. He knew
that if he was going to come to DC to
attend Hillary's concession speech, he knew that someone would see him.
He knew that that would be written as the elusive
(35:53):
Matt has appeared in public. He was the master of
his own profile, and I think he saw the benefits
of being the mystery man. He laughed a lot about
the reporting others did about him. You know, if a
book came out or some sort of analysis appeared, he
(36:17):
would laugh. He would say, to me, that guy has
no idea what he's talking about. And you know, so
he was reading what was being written about him, and
he didn't care that it wasn't accurate. I think he
just recognized that that persona was a valuable persona. I
think he felt like somebody who could, you know, kind
(36:41):
of rub their hands together and say, my work here
is done. I've created this. I'm the king, you know,
I rule the world.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
I'm done.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
I think he was hanging his own mission accomplished.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Banner turned out two thousand and eight was really just
the warm up act for Matt Drudge. Just a few
years later, Donald Trump would give Drudge a chance to
take his legacy even higher, to become a presidential kingmaker.
This is Finding Matt Drudge. Stay tuned. Remember to call
(37:38):
us at three zero one two zero zero two four
one four if you have a great tip or a
great Matt Drudge story. We'll track down the tips for
the final episodes of the show.
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