Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
The leading right wing candidate in the country, someone who
has come to power because he has fully and completely
subscribed to the idea of overturning Roe v. Wade is
now fully on the side of Roe v Wade. It's
a kind of unprecedented head spinning moment. And my understanding
(00:26):
is that having made this declaration, every pro life heavyweight
in the party was then on the phone with the
campaign and in a shit show of this can't stand.
What are we going to do here? And Trump was
basically told we're looking at a revolt within the party.
(00:47):
We will lose, not because the Democrats win, but because
we are being deserted by the Republican base, by the
evangelical base, by the pro life base. And you have
to undo this, which is that's interesting because Trump never
undoes anything. Welcome to Fire and Fury the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'm Michael Wolf and I'm James Truman.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
So let's just situate ourselves here. Labor Day has passed,
so now begins the traditional slog to the end. I mean,
the end is not that far away. It's a literal,
a day by day countdown to November fifth, and it's
a grind for both sides. Every day, the pendulum is
(01:38):
going to swing a little this way and a little
that way. And I think a really important point at
which to start here and to understand this, is that
there was really relatively little, if any, convention bounce for Kamala.
And I know that the Trump people were really anticipating
(01:59):
a four point a five point perish, the thought a
six point bounce for her. And so here we are
with a negligible, if any bounce. And I think what
that means is again that this is an incredibly close race.
It has always been a close race, other than the
anomaly of Joe Biden fading over a long period of time.
(02:24):
It is here's the Trump country, here's the non Trump country,
and those two things are facing off. They will continue
to face off right down to the end. Here's an
important caveat too, that the end is starting now. I
mean voting starts in some places. I think in North
Carolina voting starts next week, later in the month. It
(02:47):
will start in other places. So this is happening, and
it's happening with no one having a clear advantage.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I mean, it's very struck that the week of the convention,
it was not about togetherness but it was about eloquence
and high ideals, which didn't move the needle, as you note,
and then last week, maybe dog days of August, we
were back to kind of schoolyard sort of pointing, accusing, belittling.
Do you think that's going to be the tenor for
(03:17):
the rest of it?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Absolutely, I mean he's maxed out his numbers. Actually that's
another important. His numbers don't really change, her numbers slightly improve,
His numbers don't really fall, so all he can do
is try to pull her numbers down. His goal is
to define her in the most negative possible way. Her goal,
(03:40):
I suppose, looking at this from what she's trying to do,
is trying to maintain That's certainly not the most aggressive
and most audacious move that she could make. And I
think that goes to this interview that she did last week,
which to me was a strictly not a loss not
again just tread water interview. I mean it was kind
(04:02):
of ghastly.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, it was. I thought there was one really significant
moment in it, which is when Dana Bash asked her
about Trump, saying that she had just invented herself as
a black woman, and she said, oh, same tired le
playbook from Donald Trump and Dana basaid is that it
you have anything more to say, and you kind of
understood an instant why she probably didn't, shouldn't, or didn't
(04:25):
want to do interviews because the press has been in
this position for a long time with Trump, where any
absurd thing he says gets legitimized when you ask a
question about it, when you put it forward as a
thesis that demands a response.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Completely, She's absolutely right in not doing interviews, but having
done an interview, and because it's inevitable that she will
have to do in interview, then the choice is whether
it be defensive or aggressive. Basically, what we've defined and
what she helped define here is it's, you know, miss
goody two shoes against the ultimate bad boy.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, I think she did something else too. I think
she was dismissive. I mean she did not take him seriously,
which is something I think Joe Biden did. It was
the end of democracy kind of vibe that went on
and on and on. I thought what she did was
kind of smart in that way.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yes, why not. But on the other hand, here's the
problem that the Democrats have always had is that they
read as insincere, they read as phony, they read as
draping themselves in a whole set of ideals that a
good part of the country doesn't share. It's wrapping themselves
(05:40):
in democratic party virtue, and it doesn't connect to a
lot of people in the way that Donald Trump has
succeeded at in which this kind of in visceral connection.
And it's always as though, deflecting connections. I don't want
to connect because well, probably because I can't, and also
(06:00):
because that's a risky strategy, so it's always no risk.
What's the least amount of harm I can do. I
can't come out in that kind of straightforward this is
really who I am, take it or leave it, which
is effectively the Trumpian way. I can't do that because, well,
(06:21):
probably because I don't exactly know who I am.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Right, It's interesting how the language of risk has become
the language of the campaign. Perhaps you know Nate Silver's
book which was comparing politics with poker and using what
he learned from poker, and I mean he and others
have assessed Trump as being actually just intuitively good at
risk management. And I think what you're saying is that
Kamala is not as good that she doesn't want to
(06:47):
take those risks that Trump into it.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Well again, I mean I would always hesitate to use
the word management in a sentence with Trump, and I
don't think it is management. I think he is who
he is. Although so having said that, I think we
go to this other thing, which was encapsulated this week,
his notion of management in the abortion discussion.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Oh, the flip flop.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, this has been dogging him essentially since the court
overturned Roe v. Wade.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, he's always.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Taken a completely opportunistic stance on abortion. Clearly he doesn't
subscribe to the pro life point of view, to say
the very least, But certainly he was willing to do this,
not least of all because he was protected by Roe v.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Wade.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Well, nothing was really going to happen, and so he
did what a good part of the Republican Party demanded
that he do. But with the overthrow of Roe v. Wade,
he realized this is a clear vulnerability and he's been
sending signs about that for the past year. But now
this has gotten to this critical point. And I think
(07:54):
that was one of his main takeaways from Harris's acceptance
speech at the convention. You know, he calls it the
A word. We're in trouble with the A word. You know,
they're going to call me the A man.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Which is.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
And so what to do about this? And no one
in his camp and in non evangelical part of the
Republican Party knows what to do about this. This is
a problem. And his feeling has been those people have
nowhere to go, the evangelicals and the pro choice base.
What are they going to do?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Vote for her? No?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Obviously not. So he's been like, I got to solve
this problem, and essentially out of nowhere, and as I
understand it, without any preparation, without him preparing his staff,
and without the staff preparing him on how he said,
let's make IVF free, and the staff was like, like,
(08:51):
who is making IVF free? Is the government making IVF free?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I think the Mexican government was, Yes, been made to pay?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Are we making the insurance companies pay for IVF? And
how much is this going to cost?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, it's like forty thousand dollars for treatment, right, yes?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And does Trump even know what IVF is? But then
he went further and he was asked about this ballot
initiative in Florida. It's actually a constitutional amendment to override
the after six weeks ban on abortions in the state
of Florida, and he gave every indication that he would
(09:29):
vote for the amendment. Now, the amendment is basically not
at all different from Roe v. Wade and actually goes
further than the decisions that had somewhat modified Roe v.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Wade.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
It goes back to essentially meaning abortion is allowed until viability.
Talking to a couple of people who he has spoken
to about this, it's like, I don't want to have
to talk about this. How do we put the abortion
thing of it? And everybody says, just don't talk about
which again is it's just not possible for him to do.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I think we'll see this coming up again and again
and again.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
What's going on with Corey Lewandowski.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I mean, I think it's sort of what's going on
with the campaign. I mean, we discussed this last week
in this summer moment. This is the moment when Trump
makes a change. So the question is is Trump making
a change? And that's unclear which would be a characteristic
way for Trump to make a change. Has there been
(10:30):
a change? You can only see that in hindsight, but
I think the Corey story is a great Trump story.
Corey has been around from twenty fifteen and been repeatedly
kicked out of the campaign. You know, he's pulled in
and then he fondles someone's buttocks and he's out. But
(10:51):
he's been pulled in again. And my understanding is that
this began as a pity job. He petitioned Trump, I
need a job, I need a paycheck, and then Trump
told the campaign find something for Corey. You know, he's
been a loyalist all this time, and Trump loves a loyalist,
and Corey has been always loyal to Trump. They kind
(11:13):
of brought in a bunch of people at that, so
Corey was just part of this group that they brought
in and said not a change in the campaign, were
just expanding the campaign. But then because Trump likes Corey,
Corey started traveling with Trump. So Corey was on the plane.
So Susie Wiles and Chris Lasovita, who run the campaign,
(11:34):
there in Palm Beach at headquarters, and Corey is traveling
with Trump, and Trump will speak to anyone who is
within range of his voice. So suddenly Corey is the
first point of contact with Trump and representing himself as
the first point of contact and giving directions to everybody.
(11:56):
And then he gives an interview and in the interviewer
asks about Susie Chris, where does everybody stand? And Corey says,
Chris and Susy are great, they're they're really fantastic, and
putting himself and we all work well together and we're
kind of the three amigos. He said, Oh, he promotes
(12:16):
himself then from this pity hire to one of the
people running the campaign. But at least we think that
Corey is so smart. Just this past week, the Washing
Post ran a story about all of Corey's past bad behavior,
all of the times the buttocks he fondled, Yeah, and
(12:39):
the times that he was kicked out of the campaign. Now,
I don't think that there's anybody within the campaign who
thinks that that was just a brilliant editorial decision by
the Washington Post. Yes, and I understand now that both
the New York Times and the Washing Post are calling
around with information. I wonder where this information could have
(13:01):
come about another buttock's fondling incident that just happened this
past week or the week before that's the Cory story
up to the minute.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
So he's he's close to toast. Well, you know, it's
Trump even cat.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Actually it often works, and that's why this is always difficult.
It often works with Trump that when somebody gets in trouble,
he defends.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Them, right because then he has them. They're obligated to him.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Well, they're obligated to him. And also you know he
sees there but for the grace of God. Right, yeah,
or have been there done that? We'll be back right
after the break.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Have you been following his posts on truth social.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I mean I think that this is really I mean,
speaking of broadcasts, this becomes another way that it's all
all comes from him. It's all about what he is saying.
The truth social thing is extraordinary because I mean, if
you look at Trump's posts untruth social, the man is,
(14:11):
let's find a word for it. I mean, he is
not functional. He is he's a crazy person. I mean
he is a kind of person that you would say
that this is that there's something has gone grievously wrong here,
that there's danger to himself to others. You know, these
are not just one post and not occasional posts, but
(14:31):
sometimes these are ten in a row, twenty in a row,
thirty in a row, forty in a row. So he's
clearly staying up all night. There's some moment that this happens,
and it's certainly without precedent for someone running for high office.
It's actually, I think without precedent for a public figure ever.
(14:54):
Now the campaign has always from the beginning, they they said,
thank God for truth Social because no one is on
it except Trump. So it's just as though this is
his mind, this is just what he's thinking what otherwise
would be just private churning for anyone else who didn't
(15:14):
have their own social media network. Occasionally the media will
flag this, but not all that often, and certainly not
at the five alarm level. You know, this is a
personal train wreck going on here, and I think that
that's probably because you know, I think it's because nobody
(15:35):
knows what to make of it. I mean, it's like
the relationship with Milania. It stares you in the face,
but nobody. You can't go there, right And I think
you can't go to the truth Social post because if
you do, you would come up with the fact that
here is someone at least having a partial psychotic break.
I think nobody can deal without.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
So do we still say that Donald Trump is gifted
to social media if we look back on what his
campaign tactics have been.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I think he is gifted at it. You know that
Donald trump promise is that what you see is what
you get, that there is no filter. He will say
anything that comes into his mind comes out of his mouth.
And that is against all political precedent. What an enormous
number of people find valuable or entertaining, or truthful or
(16:30):
novel or just something that is not politics as usual.
So yes, it's been an extraordinary success.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah. Yeah, So looking to the debate, is there anything
Kamalahus can do to get the boost that the convention
didn't give her?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
I think you go into these debates, or everyone goes
into these debates other than Donald Trump thinking the job
is not to put yourself at risk, not to take
a gamble, and the best scenario is to come out
even do no harm.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I think that's what.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
The debate skill is. Trump doesn't work that way because
no matter what happens, I mean, he's going to be
fine with his people and going to be of course
anathema to the other side. She's also not at great
risk because she knows what is expected of her.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Now.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I don't know what would happen if she came out
and was suddenly I'll let it all hang out. Figure
she's not going to be, But what if she were.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
I can't imagine what other things could happen that are
going to throw this into a new arena, this pre
election campaign, you know, I mean, I.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Think that there's only two things. There are some egregious
mistake which can always happen, you know. I mean in
the debate, George Bush Senior looked at his watch in
the middle of the debate.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And someone had to fly on their head. Who was that?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Mike Pence?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
That was Yes, that that was not good. Yeah. So
where do you think it stands today? The odds?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
You know, I mean, I would give the odds today
slightly to her, but only slightly. In that slightness probably
wears off. You know, she is the beneficiary to being new.
A month from now she will be less new, and
so you know, we'll go into election night.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I don't know. Thank you, Michael, thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
That's all the time we have for today, and we'll
be back next week.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Fire and Fury the Podcast is hosted and executive produced
by Michael Wolfe and James Truman. The producers are Adam
Waller and Emily Maronov. Executive producers for Kaleidoscope, Mangesh had
to get her an odd Velocian executive producers for iHeart
on Nikki Etour and Katrina Novel