Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
So what are the odds Now Joe stays old, Joe.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Goes I cannot imagine a logical scenario in which the
Democratic Party allows him to stay.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
That.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Having been said, logic seems to have departed politics in general,
and certainly this race in particular. So could it be
that Joe Biden will actually be the Democratic nominee for
president in twenty twenty four? Not too long ago, we
would have asked that question about Donald Trump, and that
(00:37):
answer would have been astounding. Now it is even more
astounding that Joe Biden may be the nominee.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Indeed, Welcome to Fire and Fury the podcast. I'm Michael
Wolfe and I'm James Truman.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
James, Okay, let's just kind of put a flagpole in
this moment in time. The most non standard election in
American history has now.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Itself gone sideways.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
And with Biden in this suicidal intransigence threatens to go
sideways once again.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I've often thought that the most.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Underdisgusted issue in politics is the emotional instability of the
people in it, and I think the Democrats have been
partially That's been their case against Donald Trump. In quite
an obvious case, the man is crazy. We're in a
moment where I think we have never been, where no
(01:47):
one quite knows how to think about this, and everyone
is on the verge of giving up.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I suppose until last night when he did the rally
in Florida, we didn't hear from him. It was utterly bizarre,
this kind of silence where you've only known noise for
ten years.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
No.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I think it's completely confounding for Trump and for the campaign.
It would be a kind of delicious ironic development. If
this sudden interest, then the Dems drama begins to make
Trump look boring.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
He's out of it.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
He's not the guy making headlines. Biden is unfortunate headlines,
but headlines nevertheless.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And has Donald Trump discovered a new tactical side to
let this play out?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I think partly that's what's going on. I mean, let
these people go off the cliff by themselves, why do anything?
But I think that's by default. Trump is never going
to accept the position in which he's not the center
of the conversation. So effectively, this is they can build
this as strategy, but this is not strategy.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
This is default. They don't know what to say.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Clearly, this is playing to their advantage, but at the
same time not to be in control of this. Yeah,
and Donald Trump now is not in control of this
story in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
And what do you hear from Trump's circle about how
he's managing this.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Everybody's confused about this since the convention begins on Monday
and so less than a week and they don't have
an opponent to run against. Yeah, So I mean, the purpose,
at least of a modern convention is to make your
argument against your opponent. So no opponent.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Now.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Their plan, and I think they unveiled this specifically at
last night's rally, is to run against Kamala. That kind
of works for them either way. If Joe does perish,
the thought stay in this race, then it's a reminder
that the likelihood is that the country will get Kamala
(03:58):
as the president. And then if he doesn't, well, the
reasonable chance is that she will be the candidate. So
they're hedging their bets in a reasonable way, except that
it's not at all certain actually that she would be
the candidate. It is quite possible. One hopes that somewhere
in the Democratic Party someone is paying attention to this,
(04:20):
that there will be somebody else entirely there will be
a new face who they would have wasted their convention
opportunity to oppose.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Right, Is there some brain trust in the Democratic Party
that's figured that out that they want to get through
the Republican convention and then Biden steps aside?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Well, what you're.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Thinking, Obviously that's what they should be thinking. That does
not seem to be the case right now. The case
right now seems to be this unimaginable scenario in which
everything is ignored and Joe Biden marches forward into whatever wall.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
He's going to hit.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, and I don't know, I can't even imagine how
the level of the party who are not now actively
throwing themselves in his way, what are they thinking? And
my only assumption is that they're thinking, Okay, this is
we're screwed. I mean absolute resignation.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah. Well, I watched the rally last night and the
first thing was he shut up an how elate, which
is kind of the last time I saw someone annihilate
I think was guns and Roses back in the nineties,
because axel Rose was a myth. So I was staggered
by that.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Politics. Everyone is late in politics, an how late often Yes,
there is no timetable in politics. There is no threshold
for contempt.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Which yes, that is always yes. I mean I thought
the subtext of Trump's performance was don't look old. So
there were many less sort of nonsensical digressions than one
had grown used to. I think he was reading a
lot of it off the teleprompter, and I think it
was last night he unveiled laughing Kamela's trial balloon for
her nickname, which I thought was kind of lame. And
(06:05):
his dealing with Biden was he did this sort of
cruel impression of an octogenarian, which only a seventy nine
year old can do with such conviction and fear.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I read this and did not see the rally. Was
the impression like the impression he did of that New
York Times reporter, because all of his impressions, I mean,
the guy is in his defense, he's been ripped again
and again from making fun of the disabled reporter, but
that's his impression of everyone.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
It was very similar. It was of someone differently abled
who he enjoyed mocking, and otherwise I'd never gotten really
to the end of one of his speeches, have you
heard the ones where the music comes in it's this
sort of syrupy John william style Hollywood soundtrack I have
and he starts talking in cadences I have, okay, And
he asked at one point in the crowd, do you
want the music? And they all went, yeah, we want
(06:57):
the music.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Often he says, give me the iPad and on the
plane he's his own DJ.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah. But this wasn't the pop tunes. This was the
twenty minute or whatever we call it. I'm pretty sure
it was sync to the teleprompter because it kind of
worked in sync with the music.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Fairly concerned. There are two kinds of Trump speeches. There's
the teleprompter speech and then there's what they call the
binder speech, and the binder speech is the dangerous one.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
He did say something completely batchit, which was that every
job that Biden had created, which I think is forteen
million jobs, every single one of those jobs has been
taken by an illegal immigrant. And you know, I wondered
of fourteen million people being told they were an illegal
immigrant of having gotten a job in the last four years,
what's the political advantage in that?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And on the other side, you have Binded saying that
he's created fifteen thousand.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Jobs that's right, but you know he was he mocked Biden,
he mocked Kamela, but really he was running against Night
very much more Biden's policies. I think, in the absence
of the figure to take down as his opponent.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
That's important because he's very bad at running against policies,
doesn't like to run against policies, and really the entire
foundation of his political presence is to run against a person.
He needs an enemy. Yes, so not having an enemy
at this point in time is weird. If the Democrats
(08:26):
push this out until the second half of August, that
very well could play to their advantage. I mean, I
think it is a big advantage. And I agree that
there is probably no one in the Democratic Party thinking
strategically at this point in time, but it is the
obvious conclusion. Play this out, don't put anyone into harm's
(08:51):
way until that absolutely has to happen.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
So okay, So last night in Florida, we saw the
first public appearance of Baron Trump, who stood up and
got a standing ovation. We saw Don Junior and Eric
and Trump found a way to make fun of Don
Junior and Eric forgetting a smaller revation than Baron did.
At the convention. Are we going to see Millennia?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
She is scheduled to speak at the convention. I mean
this will be an important event because she has not
made one campaign appearance nor been by his side in
any of his myriad courtroom appearances. So that whole playbook
of what a spouse is supposed to do she has
not followed. So they hope to make up for that,
(09:38):
or pay no attention to that, by giving her a
very prominent place at the convention. Trump always refers to
her as a show stopper. My wife is a show stopper.
So she is getting a prime time spot to be
the presidential spouse and the once in future first lady,
(09:59):
Now you'll call. In twenty sixteen, they gave her that
spot and they wrote her.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
A Michelle Obama speech.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yes, but I expect that they will it will do
better better this time.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I believe she dipped her toe in the water. Last
night while Donald was in Florida, she had a fundraiser
at Trump Tower.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Oh yeah, that's the other thing.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
That the one area that she has staked out for
herself for gay Republicans.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yes, I guess that goes back to her fashion connection.
That's why she might think she has a constituency there,
but it seems pretty slender.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Okay, so this is important for them that Milania, you know,
the missing wife, stands up and delivers a show stopping speech.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
This is a clear weakness in the Trump campaign and
the Trump presentation, the Trump identity, that he can't get
his wife to cooperate in any way, and that she
seems to be rebuffing him. Yes, so this is important.
She's got to prove that she is in this game.
She will be the first lady.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah. Do you think she can deliver?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Well, she All she has to do is be a
show stop.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
We'll be back right after the break.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So let's talk for a minute about the other thing
that happened this week, which we touched upon in our
last podcast, I think, which was the strange appearance of
a nine hundred page dossia from the Heritage Foundation on
Project twenty five, which was presented as supposedly as Trump's
sort of running mandate, which he then completely disavowed.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
What happened there, Okay, Well, let me just and I
think it's important to just sketch the Trump organizational hierarchy
understanding at the same time that Trump has no organizational hierarchy,
which is part of the Problemah. But inside the Trump
(11:57):
circle you have the campaign, which is largely running things,
you know, principally two people, Susie Wile and Chris Losovita,
And both of them have had long careers in Republican politics.
In other words, their careers are not exclusively Trump careers,
their Republican ops. Their job is to win. They don't
(12:21):
live a life in the Trump product development group, So
their focus is on winning this campaign. In order to
win this they're going to have to scrape off an
x number of percent of the Swing voters and the
Haley voters. So the last thing that they want is
to have to defend a whole range of positions that
(12:43):
are clearly unpopular with anyone else but the MAGA core. Yeah, okay,
that's one part. Then the other part you have outside
of that inner circle, you have several other concentric circles,
and one of them includes the Heritage Foundation people, and
they're the ones who have drafted this so called Project
twenty five.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
And you have another.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Group called America First, and both of those groups have
a MAGA claim on the MAGA soul but they hate
each other, okay, so they're always fighting back and forth.
Their hope and dream is that they will have positioned
themselves for jobs in a future administration, and they will
do this by saying the things that they think Donald
(13:27):
Trump wants them to say, and at the same time
say the things that their own MAGA core actually believes.
So in each of these groups, you have core Mega people,
you have Trump Orbit, grifters, and rank opportunists. So this
Project twenty five has put together, not put together in
(13:48):
consultation with the Trump Circle. Really it occurs outside of
the circle and the Trump team. Since the fall, they've
issued a series of statements, you know, don't believe anything
that doesn't come from us. And in truth, the idea
that Donald Trump is already thinking about what he might
do when he is in office of composing a program
(14:11):
for that eventuality, when even in office he doesn't really
have a program, is somewhat preposterous. So this is the
variables that everybody is working with. Here, there's a vacuum,
let's fill it. The campaign taking the position. When that
vacuum needs to be filled, the adults in the room
(14:31):
will fill it. Meanwhile, they issued this report and then
it becomes a kind of mainstream media whipping boy. Look
at this, Look at Project twenty five. Look the Democrats,
look at Project twenty five. These are the terrible things
that are going to happen. So that kind of works
for everyone. It works for the Heritage people because they've
(14:52):
articulated these opinions that may well find their way into
at least into the scattered organization of whatever Trump ultimately
does or whatever rhetoric he ultimately adopts. And at the
same time it confirms the worse fears of the media,
while simultaneously there is this group that is actually running
(15:17):
things around Trump, that is saying no, no, no, no,
get this away from us. And this actually now comes
into play on the convention next week, because political parties
go into conventions with the formal platform. You know, it's detailed,
and I mean they have a whole bunch of other
(15:40):
opportunists and grifters who put this together and usually no
one reads these platforms, and it's just an exercise in
people trying to get a job. Given the fact that
the people putting this together in Trump's name are prone
to extreme positions, yes, perhaps principally the most extreme on
(16:00):
the abortion question, which Trump is most concerned about and
which Project twenty five. As I recall, no one is
ever getting an abortion again. Ever, so the campaign has
taken the position, why do we need a platform? Why
can't we just have a simple page of generalities, world peace,
(16:20):
protect the border, and we never say weeks when it
comes to abortion. Actually we never say the word abortion.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah. During the speech last night, I couldn't help thinking, logistically,
how did you deport one hundred and fifty thousand people
in your first month of office. It's an insane idea, right.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Well, as one of the Trump people said to me
when I asked about this, you well, you know, he
said he could spend four years deporting everyone in America
or four years of playing golf.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
This is a Republican, a close Trump insider. For even
everyone around Trump, nobody knows what he's going to do.
So this is all this great vacuum which the Heritage
Foundation is looking at and saying, well, we ought to try.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
To fill it.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah. Yeah, have they shut themselves in the foot? Are they?
Are they gone?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Everyone shoots themselves in the foot, but everyone also lives
another day there.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
He has to pick a VP before or during the convention.
How does he pick a VP without knowing who they're
going to be running against?
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Very difficult.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
And then the VP comes part of this internescine MAGA
or Republican war. So the three prominent VP candidates JD. Vance,
Doug Bergham, Marco Rubio. Vance would be the MAGA candidate,
but Burgham is a pretty classic Neocon, you know, engage international,
(17:50):
let's bomb the Russians back into the Soviet Union. On
the other hand, he's also has for Trump kind of
bad abortion bona fides, He's at a week ban whatever.
And then Marco Rubio also a pretty traditional Republican Neo
khani ish kind of person that will make the Heritage Foundation.
(18:12):
All of those people, the MAGA people, Doug Bergham and
Marco Rubio would be troubling picks for them, So I
mean it will probably be Vance.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
I would still say, oh really.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
First thing, Vance is thirty nine years old, so that
can only make Trump look old, whereas Joe Biden makes
Trump look young. A thirty nine year old running mate
would make him look old and would already start to
make him look like yesterday's news. I mean, he only
has one term in front of him, a kind of
(18:47):
you know, uncommented aspect of this that Donald Trump, if
he wins, will go into office as effectively a lame duck,
and the focus will immediately move to the thirty nine
years year old.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, you can almost see that the convention that Trump's
introductory speech, you know, praise then humiliate in one speech
his VP pick.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
No, I think he has deeply mixed feelings about who
his vice president is.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Let's go back to the White House and Joe Biden
and particularly the media we're seeing in the Times every day,
particularly Thomas Freeman, who have just become viciously anti Biden,
having defended him for the last three years.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
No, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
First thing the Times is every day, including two major editorials.
Speaking with the editorial, the Wei voice cannot be more
scathing and adamant that Biden has to go because he's
unfit and can't cut it. Yeah, So how did they
miss this for the past certainly two years, three years.
(19:58):
Let's acknowledge that during this time, the one person who
has consistently pointed out all of this is Donald Trump.
It turns out that that the that the Trump side
has been entirely right about this, and that the mainstream
media has effectively covered this up.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
So as of this moment, what a Trump's odds of winning?
Speaker 4 (20:20):
I don't know. Wow.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
In order for Joe Biden to stage a comeback, first
of all, he would have to demonstrate that he is
something that he is patently not. Yeah, and I don't
know how he demonstrates that. He can't demonstrate it in
the ways that you would have to, which is to
publicly demonstrate that he's hutus, that he's vigorous and and
(20:43):
and cogent and on his toes. There would have to
be some pretense invented that allows people to forget what
they have seen with their lying eyes. Or let me
slightly take back the hundred percent and say that Donald
Trump could always blow it up in some way. I mean,
(21:05):
I always thought that this campaign was always largely Trump
against Trump, but now it actually seems like it's Trump
against Biden, and Trump is clearly the stronger, more formidable there,
I say, even more stable.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Is it possible that is the revolving wheel of fortune.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
We'll be back next week with more on Donald Trump's
presidential campaign and with what happens at the Republican National Convention,
Fire and Fury.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
The podcast is hosted and executive produced by Michael Wolfe
and James Truman. The producers are Adam Waller and Emily Maronov,
executive producers for Kaleidoscope. Mangesh had to get an Os Valascian,
executive producers for iHeart A, Nikki Ito and Katrina novel
(22:00):
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