Running a newsroom is an expensive but necessary endeavor. However, many local newspapers have closed because their business revenue model has been disrupted thru technology. We’ll take a look at what happened and how it can be fixed.
PLUS...our guest has been in the thick of both politics and media for decades. He’s here to analyze why both of those areas have morphed into the crazy mess we find them in today AND hopefully figure out a way to fix it.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Follow The profit is a production of Gingwich three sixty
and I Heart Radio. So running a newsroom and a
country for that matter is pretty complicated. But a lot
has changed recently. Politics and media is being disrupted, and
our next guest is going to tell us what's happened
and how things have evolved. And he's been around for
(00:21):
a really long time. You might recognize him from television
Chris Matthews, of course from MSNBC fame, and of course
from politics and from a lot of other stuff too.
He's going to talk about how the world is radically
different these days and what you need to know about
what's coming up, and he's going to analyze why this
crazy mess that we call reality these days can hopefully
(00:44):
be fixed and how we need to talk about it.
I'm David Grosso and this is following the Prophet. So
here on all the profit we look to talk about money,
but the way we view the world through money, so
(01:06):
we're not looking to get rich quick. We're looking to
understand the world and make our money work for us.
And we're going to do that by deconstructing what's going
on in the world. And some of the best people
to do that are people like my next guests. But
before we get to him, let's talk about local news
and why newsrooms across the country, including right here in Orlando,
(01:29):
are being chopped up and in some stream cases closed down. So,
you know, if we go back in history too, before
America was founded, there's this guy named Benjamin Harris who
showed up in the British colonies of America, and he
settled in Boston, of course, the first part of America,
and he opened up a print shop, a bookstore, and
a coffee shop, and he did well for himself. But
(01:52):
on sept he created a product that got him in trouble.
When he was in England, he created Public Occurrences, the
very first newspaper of the colonies. And since these were
British colonies, basically the rules were the same as in
the mother country. No newspaper could be published without the
express permission of the government. Well, about a hundred years
(02:16):
later we got rid of the British and our famed
Revolutionary War, we kicked him out and a new country
was formed and a major public right was placed in
the U. S Constitution. It is, of course, I'm talking
about the First Amendment, which includes, among many other things,
freedom of speech and freedom of the press, and we
use that every day and it's something that British people
(02:37):
fundamentally still don't understand if you heard what Prince Harry
said recently about the First Amendment being a disaster. But
throughout US history that right has been cherished and challenged
because you can always challenge power with the First Amendment.
And in the meantime, we have a capitalist society, so
if you're running a media brand, you gotta make money.
(02:58):
The whole point of this is to make money or
is it to inform people? We gotta have two goals here,
and what we see these days is that revenue and
digitalization of media shaking things up, and we're seeing the
old model kind of fall apart because of a few things, right,
big tech, Google and Facebook are major purveyors of news,
(03:21):
and they're making a lot of money. And I've taken
a lot of those advertising dollars. People aren't watching TV.
I barely watch TV, you know. It's one of those
things that I more watched clips online. And then local
ads are still very popular. Of course there's car dealers
and lawyers and doctors and whatnot. But even that model
is beginning to be disrupted, So how do you fund media?
(03:47):
In fact, media is the fastest disappearing white collar profession
on Earth. It's a respectable job, or at least it was.
These days, it seems like it's a partisan charade for
a maide for mold media reality TV show and you know,
my next guest talks about that. You know, and he
worked for the big channels. He worked in the capital,
(04:09):
and he worked in the White House, and he worked
in all these places of power. And there's something weird
about media. Media is supposed to be the watchdog, but
media also has to make money. So how do you
balance those two? While unfortunately these days we've monetized things
and made things so efficient that we have a phenomenon
(04:30):
known as left wing media and right wing media. And
they don't give you the truth. They give you one
side of the truth and and more resembles politics, right
because the politician is never going to be fully upfront
about the truth. They're going to tell you the good stuff.
I'm gonna leave the bad stuff out. And it seems
(04:51):
like newspapers, digital publications, television has all pursued the political model.
But in the meantime they're still not making money. They've
pursued this damaging model, which is damaging to society and
so's division. But in the meantime, now we have news deserts.
There are places across the country that don't even have
(05:12):
a damn newspaper. So how are you supposed to check power?
Especially in rural areas and less populated areas where I
got started as a journalist, specifically, I'm talking about West
Texas and places like that. With no local media, there's
no check on power. There's no one looking after anything.
(05:34):
And it's a major problem for society because really, journalism
is supposed to be a check on power. You're supposed
to be able to question and at least, you know,
exercise your First Amendment rights. Well, that's all kind of
falling apart because of the revenue model, and it's not
good for society, and not a lot of people are
making money either. And really, in the end, the worry
(05:56):
is is that fewer eyes are really reporting what's really
happened in the world, and you know, it ends up
happening when no one's watching. Corruption. It's human. We are
all corrupt. We carry that with us, and if we
do not have our power checked, the probability of corruption
goes up and the likelihood of voting and participating in
society goes down. So how do we solve this problem? Well,
(06:20):
you know, people have all sorts of ideas. In the UK,
they have taxpayer funded journalism. That's problematic in its own right, right,
I'm talking about the BBC. But we need newsrooms, we
need journalists, we need checks on power or else we
go too far one way or too far the other.
We need to keep people informed. But this is a
very expensive endeavor. It's a very low margin business. You
(06:43):
want to follow the profit, don't go into media. There's
a lot of money in it. In fact, media is
such a tiny, tiny industry. Even Rupert Murdoch, the most
sensational media entrepreneur of our time, it doesn't make that
much money compared to the Silicon Alley folk media is powerful.
The media is not profitable. But media can do a
(07:06):
lot of damage as well as good. And we're still
trying to figure out what works nonprofits, for profits, hybrids, advocacy, um,
you know, philanthropy. We don't know yet what the answer is.
So you know, U S journalism needs a solution, and
(07:26):
it's something that everyone's kind of waiting on the sidelines
to figure out what the heck we're gonna do. Can
we both do good and make money, or does making
money ruin the model, or maybe it should be a nonprofit,
or maybe it should be funded by the government. Everything's
on the table at this point, and if you know
anything about the way anything's run, it's not easy to
find an answer. We're gonna take a quick break. Here,
(07:51):
be right back. So was a monumental year for global events.
A lot happened that year except Timber the Japanese surrendered,
leading to the end of World War Two. And in December,
over in Pennsylvania, my next guest was born. His name
is Chris Matthews. You might have seen him on MSNBC
(08:12):
over the years. He was a Philadelphia and he's still
a Philadelphia proud one and a baseball fan at that
and he entered into the world of politics and journalism,
and he lived in the post World War and the
post World War world showed him how to be an adult.
And when he first got to d C, he was
a US Capitol Police officer. Well, we're gonna have to
(08:34):
ask him a few questions about that. And from there
He served on the staffs of four Democratic members of Congress.
He was a speechwriter for President Carter and chief of
staff for Speaker of the House Tip O'Neil. If you're young,
that was the guy who but it heads with President Reagan,
of course in the decade that I was born, in
the nineteen eighties, and then he ended up being what
(08:55):
I know him as the host of Hardball on MSNBC.
How are you doing today, Chris, it's great be on.
You have all my background statistics, and you have the
color of the game too. So tell me. Capitol police
officer that's been in the news lately, tell me a
little bit more about that. I have a tendency, like
far As Gump, to be where the action is in
(09:15):
thee I was a Capitol Police but and our big
demonstrations in those days were relatively tamed. There were protests
against the Vietnam War, and I have to say one
thing that they did it better back then. I remember
going out to do my job during the big May
Day demonstration against the war on the Capitol grounds and
in the basement there's a messanin's either mezzanine or the
(09:38):
basement of the Capitol there was incredible force of heavily
armed swat team guys and ryant gears, shields, guns, I mean,
and everything, and they were hiding there out of sight
in case something went wrong. And I thought, oh my god,
I wouldn't have been great if in one on January
six we had that cavalry ready its charged to the
(10:01):
to the doors to compliment and to reinforce all the
regular cops standing at the doors in their regular day
to day uniforms, that Ryan squad of people have been
able to go to the doors being charged. They would
have thrown back that crowd. Nobody would have been killed.
They would have batted a few heads, perhaps with their sticks,
but that would have been a pretty calm thing instead
of what we saw. And see that as an insurrection,
(10:22):
as a defiling, a desecration of our capital. So, Chris,
we tend to see this era as unprecedented. But if
you talk to people who have been around for a while,
like yourself, there's been problems at the capitol. Like what
you saw. You you said there was a whole unit
downstairs waiting for trouble. Well, they had shields, and how
(10:42):
much they were ready for trouble? And I thought it
was good to show that they didn't want to intimidate
the crowd, neestly college kids, anti war people. They weren't
bad people, obviously, they weren't like this crowd. They was
trying to overthrow the government. They just wanted that war stops,
and it eventually did stop. The course stop. But in
those days would say the long hairs versus the hard hats.
So it was the construction guys, the guys who work
(11:03):
with their hands, who are basically the trumpets trumpies of today.
There is a pattern there of the college kids versus
the town versus gown, if you will, that that division
by education level was going on back then. You know,
I worked with a copy Lebroy Taylor from West Virginia,
working guy. Country guy told me he pulled me aside
one day and he said, you know why the little
(11:24):
man loves his country. It was always got, It's always God.
And he was teaching me about the guy with not
a big glamorous family or money or anything like that,
or a big house or a big job, but just
as an American and how he treasured his country and
his view of it was a very conservative you. And
so that that was going on your right. It was
going on back then. This fellow was trying to educate
(11:46):
me to it. So why do we have such a
profound divide? So you've been you have a unique perspective
to bring to this. Right, Like in your era, you
worked for Tip O'Neil when he would sit at the
table with Ronald Reagan and they were political opposites, but
they talked. Why is that falling apart these days? Well?
I think money. I think that people that give them
(12:07):
candidates want them to be extreme, to be polarized. They
don't want to be seen with each other. Just think
about this. Iconically, back in the seventies and eighties, you
would have these golf tournaments. I admitted this is just anecdotal,
but it was to me tells me a lot. You
would see pictures of the Republican leader Jerry Ford, who
later became president, and to put the playing golf together,
(12:30):
arm in arm. You know, there's crazy cough costumes they
used to wear those. There's all those crazy colors, ridiculous costumes,
and they would be like pounding around. You will not
see a Democrat and a Republican today powing around. They
will not let themselves have their pictures taken poling around
because that will offend their contributors. You see, their contributors
(12:50):
pay them tens of thousands of dollars to be their friends,
not just political supporters, but to be their friends. I
say that it was sarcasm, but they don't want to
see them friends with the other side because that confuses them.
They're paying not just for political point a point of view,
but for friendship. This is the social life of a
lot of these people. They give the politicians to be
(13:10):
accepted into a kind of social group, you know, a cotillion,
if you will, an assembly in the old way, you
know what I mean. So they don't want to see
they don't want to see the other side pound around
the other side. I mean there there's this true word
on the left to the left doesn't want to see
any friendship on the other side because that suggests you're
not really committed. So today's politics is very different. It's
(13:34):
about anger, it's about resentment. But if you classes of
people education, people that didn't get a college education resent
those who did. The ones that the Ivy League are
resented by those that didn't go to the Ivy League.
It's tremendously based on education now in class, and yeah,
I think that's it. We don't like that word in
American class, but it's there. Well, you know a lot
(13:55):
about that, Chris, So I think you came of age
during a time when Irish people were still a large
lee uh you know, blue collar folk. And now in
this country you know, uh, you know, someone like Sean
Hannity's an Irish person and he's a wild conservative. So
it's it's like a perfectly different era. I wouldn't call
that an upgrading class in his time. But you don't
(14:17):
have to tell you. When the World Trade Towers were hit,
it was a point of pride with me that the
Irish Americans were both the ones with Cander Fitzgerald up
the top floors. They're also in the police force. We
lost Irish Americans and that going charging up those stairs
when everybody else was coming down. I'm very proud of
those guys, mostly guys from the boroughs, who went to
(14:38):
save that building. But I'm also proud of the ones
who made it to the top floors with the big
equity firms, you know, the big financial houses. You know,
I don't think the Irish are we cover all the
bass you have opened up my tribal knowledge here, which
is I don't usually talk about it, but I always
saw you as that, and no one ever told me that.
I guess it's because of my ethnic backgroud. I always
saw you as like the firebrand Irish. I like, you know,
(15:01):
there's the raging Cajun and then there's Chris Matthews, who's
like the face of Irish America. But maybe it shows
I saw it, and I know one ever told me
you were Irish. I just noticed the politics, and you
know it's I feel like Irish Americans is one of
the most successful assimilation stories in America that no one
(15:22):
talks about. That took a while, though it always so
this donor class that you're talking about, aren't they most
of your age? Is this a generational thing? Is this
something your generation has demanded? They're waiting for their ambassadorships
right now? Right? Isn't the fact that Biden hasn't made
these announcements yet because it's a little ticklish, a little uh,
(15:45):
a little question there. You only had some hit for that.
They always do get hit for it for a day
or two. So don't people your age understand that they're
like leaving a world behind for people my age. That
is a little challenging. Well, I think it was Ronald
Reagan had said that all this stuff that was invented
was invented by our generations. Everything, all that, all that,
(16:07):
that's why is everybody plays with every day. And when
you see four young women for examples, and men sitting
together at lunchtime, they're on their phones. And they didn't
invent those phones. They were invented by their forebears, if
you will. But as a cranky argument, I I think
people today are different. I think they're more liberal, more
progressive on LGBT, on on a race, certainly race. Uh,
(16:29):
A young kid will come back from school today and
not say that the teacher is African American. They wouldn't
even note it as important. Back in my day, they
would note it that say it. It It would be negative,
but then say it. I think people aren't so on
interracial marriage, if you will, The numbers are completely upside
down from where they were in my era. You know,
percents say it's fine with them. Last night, there was
(16:51):
four percent that was fine with them a black and
white relationship. So that has definitely changed. So we'll see
how it develops into a society. Well it would carry
are you want into adulthood? Would? Will it really change
the way neighborhoods are arraid how people live in neighborhoods.
People say they want to live in an integrated neighborhood.
I believe that, and I know that from Capitol Hill
in Washington, where people are moving to. They like neighborhoods
(17:12):
a little grittier, a little more urban, you know what
I mean. They don't want to live in some boring suburb.
They want to get into where the there's a sense
of city, you know what I mean. So that's changed.
So let's talk about you a little bit. At different
points in your life, you've been accused of being too
conservative or too liberal, or you know, don't go ahead
and use the word accusation. I have been too conservative
(17:33):
compared to some of my colleagues, certainly, certainly, but compared
to the people in the other networks, I was a liberal.
So you look at it different. Tell me more about that,
Chris Well. I think from compared to MSNBC, I would
more conservative than most of the people on the network,
not all of them, not Joe. I don't think Nicole
I don't think Stephanie, I don't think Brian. Brian's politics
(17:55):
are hard to read. But maybe we're more less liberal
than the people in prime time Joy Now and and
Chris Hayes and Rage and of course Lawrence. I think
I'm probably a little tagged to the right of them. Yeah,
but my issues are the war and interack, my wars.
My issues are voter rights, basic rights, opposition to wars.
(18:16):
You know, I can argue about inflation with some of
this big spending it and I think we're gonna have
a higher crime rate because of some of the intimidation.
Perhaps a good police officers will stop doing their job.
That's what we have to be really afraid of it.
When you call nine one, you want a good cop
to show up. You don't want nobody to show up.
That makes me sound more conservative, I am. So tell
(18:37):
me more about this inflation and government spending. Because the
last time inflation was around, you are already of age
in the nineteen seventies. Tell us about it. We never
lived through this. I studied economics, I was in grad
schools and a PhD. Probably basically there's demand pull. You
have too many dollars chasing too few goods and services.
So when all of a sudden there's several trillion dollars
in the economy floating around looking for places to go,
(18:59):
and there's not any more people working, or maybe a
fewer because of COVID, and there's no no more goods
out there. People compete for the goods with higher prices.
People pay more. You go to a restaurant, you don't
complain about the extra five or ten bucks for the entree.
You don't argue as hard as you do before for
a hotel bill. I mean a lot of this is
at the top end, but it's also about gas. You know,
(19:21):
there's only only some of whose guests, and there's more
money people trying to get into, they raise the prices.
This is what goes on in economics, supply and demand
loaders supply bigger demand, higher price, and that's what's going
on now. But the political class explains this away, and
if I turn on your former channel, this is not
an issue because they have the belief in the new
monetary policy, which is magical, which you can spend all
(19:44):
the money in one in Washington, is not gonna have
an impact, is going to manipulate money, and everything's gonna
be fine. Well, the FED is going to do what
they can demonetize this dead, but I see it's not
really working. They keep missing their expectations. I read it
every day now, Fed's expectations about interest rates coming up
earlier is the way off, and every day it's more
way off. So anyway, not to over criticize them, because
(20:06):
they're doing their best. But you know, if the money's
out there, it's gonna get spent, and if it's gonna
be spent, it's gonna compete for goods and services. So
this will help salaries at the bottom line. People are
hard to fill their their their workforces now, so hopefully
that'll mean supplying to man, hey, I want Sundrip Bucks
in now. No, I want seven team Bucks now. Sorry, buddy,
(20:27):
you want me or not? You know, that's what I
think workers are probably gonna start doing now because they
have everywhere you go, you know, getting a car fixed
or anything. By the way, mechanics are probably gonna get
big salaries out of this because people are trying to
get in their cars out and they started driving around.
They're not working. They want to they want to fix things.
Is that generally good for society? Then or it's a
(20:48):
I think, I think we've got to help the people
at the at the you know, the most important people
that want's trying to work into the middle class, trying
to make it. You know, they're trying to get so
they're trying to get their hooks into something like solid
hopes of the next twenty years, a career that's gonna
get a job that's gonna keep them solid for a
long time. That's what everybody wants. But your generation has
(21:11):
kind of devoured the middle class in this country the
policies of and I can blame both parties that like
the middle classes all hollowed out. It doesn't seem like
it exists anymore. Well, depends what you want done. You know,
the most valuable people were in Africa and eyes the
peace car mechanics, because the cars have to run. There's
(21:32):
no bs about it. The car is not working. It's
not working. You don't need a PhD in the philosophy
or or Shakespeare. Which need is a guy or what
I'm gonna could fix the car. And those were the
last people that were pushed out after independence because they said,
no matter what the government, ministers need to have their
cars moving. So the liberals, with the good talks and
a nice language about race, they might go first because
(21:55):
they're dispensable. But the mechanics you didn't get rid of him.
You needed the car to work. So in a sense,
our society is going to get warmed up. The plumber.
Remember the movie Moonstruck, and the richest guy in the
movie was it was the plumber, not not the professor
at n y U, but the plumber. So so so, Chris,
my grandfather's business was never expropriated in Communist Cuba because
(22:18):
he was a mechanic. So you make an excellent point.
So even the Commies needed by the way, they still stucked.
They still sucked. The Communies are just as bad as ever.
I just said it to you, just as bad as
just like East Germany. I was in East Germany when
the wall came down, and they treated all the East
Germans like second class citizens. They got lousy currency to
get the good East Marks, not deutsch marks. They were
(22:39):
the factory managers to school principles. The really good communists
that do well, they're doing their jobs, got the worst money.
They couldn't travel. They could go to two countries for vacation,
Poland and hungry, lots of fun. That's all they could
travel to. They couldn't go to the hotels, they couldn't
go to the restaurants. Only the tourists couldn't. Guess what
that's like Cuba today, Cuba, Cuba is a horsh screw
(23:01):
the regular, regular people. The regular people are getting screwed.
I got no time for cash. The Castro brothers. And
by the way, that when you talking about keep talking
about my generation. In the late fifties, when Castro came in,
we all bought his line that he was a liberal Democrat,
that he was going to bring democracy. He's gonna get
rid of all the dictatorship and the corruption and the
(23:22):
prostitution and all that stuff. Yeah, I'm right right. You
didn't get rid of the prostitution. He didn't get rid
of the corruption, and the only got rid of freedom.
And he announced he was a communist and a loyal
servant of the Soviet Union and betrayed all of us
who rooted for him against Batista. He just did it.
He just said one day I'm a communist. I fooled
to you guys. The only guy didn't fool was Nixon.
Nixon spotted him from the beginning, and he said he
(23:45):
hated that guy said, how did that guy know? He
used to reading about Castro and Nixon. It's a fascinating story. Well,
you're talking about my family's experience. Thank you about I hope,
I hope I'm getting it right. Oh, you got it.
You're straight on. But you you sound con servative these days, Chris,
because I see a lot of liberals with Jay flags,
and you know, they're they're kind of like falling into
(24:06):
the same traps that you know, maybe people of the
past in well, they don't know what they're talking about.
There was a lot of romance though back in my
day in college. Everybody, you know, one of the congress
woman got in trouble with that. Join the Vince Ramos brigade.
You know, let's go to Cuban, help the revolution. Let's
go help them cutch sugar so that there are people
(24:26):
can go to school. Remember that, Well you don't remember,
but that's what going on. There's a lot of romance
about cash Joe and j of course, my kids got
che Carey sweat t shirts. You know, I know about that.
But the truth is he was a communist dictatorship. That
extuecuted six people the minute he came into office by
firing squad. He was not some romantic good guy. But
(24:47):
I know that. But many of my colleagues don't know that,
so well, they're wrong. And by the way, I don't
call me a conservative because I mean a communist, because
all good liberals are anti communist stuff. Well, and maybe
they need to hear that. That's an important line, Chris,
so they do. We're gonna take a quick break here,
be right back. Okay, So let's before I get into media,
(25:12):
which is the supposed to be the point of this interview.
I want to talk about your your stance on policing.
You mentioned it, and you know the economic impact of that,
you know, crime. Jimmy Carter once said, if you call
somebody a racist, you've lost them. They're going they're never
gonna come back to you because they don't like the
look of it, the sound of it, they don't like
the accused of it, and whatever their attitudes are how
(25:33):
they were brought up. It doesn't work. And by the way,
when you attack police, do you think the bad cops
here it? The band cops are always gonna be the
bad cops. But the good cops. Oh my god, I
gotta get home to my wife and kids and my
in laws and everybody in my neighborhood. I go to
church with them and they look at me as one
of the bad guys. You're not helping this situation. So
we gotta have discernment. We have to discern and keep
(25:56):
the cases to the cases. And there is a systemic problem,
and a police force deal with it. But when you
downline one one, you want somebody to show up who's
comfortable with their authority, not abusing it, but confident enough
to do their job and protect you. Be strong. And
we need those people because as long as we live
in a society that has social problems and crime, we
(26:18):
have to have people to deal with it. And I
worry that a police officer today, as a reasonable forty
five year old police but says, I've got an hour
to go before my ship's up. Do I really want
to go into that club in the middle of the
night when this fighting going on? I really want to
go in there. I really want to go into a
domestic situation where there's not just frying pants flying across
the room, but knives and stuff like that. Do I
(26:38):
really want to go in that room with my gun.
I don't want to go go relax and take it out.
Oh I'm off in an hour. Let me get out
of here. I'm telling you human interest humans common sense
tells you we don't have society on your side. Why
would you risk your life? Isn't that reasonable? But isn't
that reasonable? That's my general perspective. Reform instead of defunding.
(27:00):
You know that sounds too normal, and that's not in
you know, the media sphere. You don't hear that. You
either hear defond or Blue Lives Matter. You don't hear
the middle, correct. I think we've all, well, not all
of this, but we've had different experiences with police. But
some of them are brusque, arrogant, maybe awful in some cases,
and others are there to help you of course, and
(27:20):
uh maybe that's just human nature that some people have
good days and bad days. But we have to encourage
the good days. I was a cop and what we
really like to do is give people directions. In the
Capitol building, we do what we like people coming up
there and say, well when was this builder? How when
when the British break in? Tell me where the where
the bullet holes. That's what I like to show people,
(27:42):
the bullet holes in the ceiling of that what we
call the British steps where they broke in in the
War of a T twelve and the bullet holes are
still there. That was fun, you know, telling people about
the history of their country. You know they don't want
to mix it up with racists. And although one guy
came up to me during that demonstration, I told you
about that hit him once. For me, what he thought
I was some redneck, angry cop who just wanted to
(28:05):
about hit coming his head in. I had friends. I
had definitely one friend at least was in that protest.
So I didn't like that guy who come up to
me and assumed I was some sort of thug that
he needed to encourage to be more thuggish. So tell
me about media, Chris, so you I watched you a
lot on MSNBC back when I watched cable. What do
(28:25):
you think about media today because you are a very
prominent media person and now you get to see it
from that look. I don't know. I don't think it's uh.
I think it's what I always said. If people see
what you see is Ronald Reagulan said, don't be afraid
to see what you see. If you see something that's
only telling one side of the story, I get a
little suspicious about the facts you're getting, but they may
be factually accurate. You know, when and when you take
(28:48):
the standard court, you're asked to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing. But try that for a standard
from a cable anchor. The truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the words. Don't throw in cheap shots. Acknowledge
there's a cost to anything you're pushing. It's always the
question of getting it right. Whether it's black lives, which
(29:08):
is a wonderful cause it has to be used the
right way, or it's reven infrastructure. Yes to a point,
At what point doesn't inflate the economy? I think you
have to look at things with a little discernment, and
you can't just take a side and yell and assume
like if your party ran the country, everything would be swelled.
That's not I guess, is the the conceit of both sides,
(29:31):
left and right. They have the conceit that if all
we left, I like there were liberal Democrats since sev seven,
if all we ever did was et unlike liberal everything
would be just swimmingly going along and everything would be great. No. No,
And if we'd like to just conservatives, no, it was
(29:53):
just conservatis. We wouldn't have so security, we wouldn't have Medicare,
we wouldn't have college loans, probably at least the ones.
I had a lot of things we just wouldn't have.
We wouldn't have that. We might not have had anything good.
I don't know, but I think if the republic has
had their way, I think if the Democrats have had
their way, my god, I don't know who would have
kept counting, who kept count of the money? Because they
(30:13):
don't say no, they just say yes. You know, somebody's
got to hold you back once in a while. So
it's this tension between both sides, right, But that's not
what you see on MSNBC, Fox or CNN these days.
In fact, well, I'm not a media critic. It's like
a baseball player criticizing other baseball players. I don't want
to do that, but I do think, you know, when hardball,
(30:35):
I'll start with the idea of I was willing to
ask the question three times, not just twice. I was
willing to be obnoxious until people saw they're not answering
the question. And sometimes it really worked, and sometimes didn't work,
and sometimes I just looked ounoxious, and sometimes I got
somebody answers, like getting Trump to admit it was gonna
his his idea of pro life was to punish the woman.
(30:55):
Well he got off of that quick, or getting Zell
Miller to want to have a duel with me. But otherwise,
you know, it aggravates people. They don't like their people.
They're they're heroes getting a second degree. They do not
like them big questions, and the and the people on
the left, certainly as much as the right, hate being
cross examined. They don't like being questioned closely. They want
(31:18):
to be taken exactly at their word. The talking points
should be swallowed hale, and anything short of that is
to question their legitimacy, which, by the way, having worked
in politics, the politician never tells the bad stuff. They
tell you the best possible story they can tell. So
work from there down to truth, you know what I mean,
because they're not going to tell you anything short of
(31:40):
what sounds good. They're just not except really a good one.
Really maybe a really good politicians self deprecating now and
then I think I think pe like John McCain, they
come across them that didn't have sort of a bob dole.
You sort of get people that pat morning and maybe
didn't you getting close to the truth to some of them.
(32:01):
So tell me about the way you ended things there.
I know what I mean. We live in a world
of nda s or whatever. But what should the audience
know about your transition and career? Because if I don't
ask you, the question went on, I went on. I
went on the ear March second and said that I
had complimented a woman in the makeup chair the makeup room,
and I should have done it, And that is the
(32:21):
beginning and end of it. That's what put the pressure
on me to make a decision. I decided to do
it my way and it just ended. But the facts
are there and check around. Yeah no, I've read it,
of course. But and you've come out since and you've
said that the Me Too movement is actually a positive
development in society, just like you said black lives. But
I think part I think, I think everything has to
(32:43):
be It gets refined over time. Things go one direction
and they get synthesized into something a little more sophisticated.
But yeah, people that go to work, women to go
to work especially, don't have to have people appraising their
their appearance during the work work hours, certainly, and that
that's certainly reasonable to me. A daughter he's in business
world at the night and a wife was an anchor woman.
(33:03):
I think that's a reasonable new standard, a good standard. Great.
So tell me about your book and how you wrote
it and how you got the idea to do it.
Your books called This Country and it's a your memoir basically, Well,
I worked on it for two years and I decided
Simon Shuster said they wanted the book which was the
story of my professional life starting way back, and well
my life really and it really has a great panoramic
(33:26):
fact factor to it. I mean, I was in the
Peace Corp in Africa for two years. I was teaching
business and riding around a motorcycle country Swasi lynd that's
Swati now the re changes. Yeah, and then I was
able to hitchhike up all with colemen Jarrow, amazing adventures.
I had an additional the work I was doing. And
(33:49):
by the way, I used to think of myself as
a bourgeois che Rivera because he was teaching communism in
Latin America and I was teaching business and romantic But
I really did think about it when I was write
around my bike, and then you know, and then I
came back to the Hill, Capitol Hill. I got the
pop job, the police job. I worked my way up
to speech writer to President Carter. I was on the
(34:09):
plane with him writing speeches right to the end, flying
on Marine one the morning we lost. And then I
worked for six years as Tipo Nil's guy, and I
worked against Ronald Reagan every morning, listening to his old
stories from the old days and fighting with Reagan, occasionally
cutting deals with him, which I thought it was great.
I wrote a book about that, and then turning the
journalism with the San Francisco Examiner, and having a great
(34:31):
opportunity to cover the Berlin Wall coming down, being there
when it happened, being in South Africa, when African America,
the Africans, I keep saying, African Americans, Africans of course
became eligible to vote, and that thanks to Nelson Mandel,
they all voted for the new government of Nelson Mandel.
The a n C came in and he wouldn't even
leave prison for twenty eight years, he's still in prison.
(34:52):
He said, I'm not coming out to illegalize my party,
and realized the Communist Party too. For us, I'm not
coming out. So he insists it on the government changing
the majority rule by elections, not by blood blood warfare.
So I other things like the Belfast Agreement Good Friday
between the Irish and the Protestants, of the Catholics, of
(35:12):
the Protestants. My family comes from both sides, and both
I resides, and I'd love to see that piece, that
piece tree. And I got to see the Pope's funeral,
which was a majestic affair. So it's truly about my
life and politics of all my words with politicians, covering
all the political campaigns, going back to uh, it's pretty
amazing life. And I looked when I look back, and
(35:34):
I said, my god, this is a story. I've been
writing about the Kennedy's and Tippoo and Reagan and all that.
And I said, mon, I read about myself this time.
Who do you admire the most? Chris Well, this only
gets me in trouble, Churchill. Why does that get you
in trouble a lot? Because the Liberals? Yeah, I think
you're always where you're listening to footsteps. I think you're
(35:54):
listening to what progressives today. They all think he's you know,
yesterday and all I thought. He had a person at
a carry dirt and stand against the world and said,
I'm gonna stop the Nazis. I'm gonna do it, no
matter what if my party says, no matter what my
country says, I'm gonna do it because it has to
be done. It's the right thing to do. And he
did it, and he's been a life like that of
being a person of character. My favorite story about him
(36:15):
is when he was in It was in prep school
and what English called public school, and he was at
Harrow and he brought his governess, his nanny basically up
to the school and walked around on the high street
with Hord next to him and he said, this is
somebody said in the most bravest they never saw his life.
For a young kid to be seen with this danny
and and being proud enough with her to say, I
(36:35):
don't care what you guys think, throw stones at me,
make fun of me. I love my my, my nanny,
my woman, he called her so. From a very early
age he had this gun, He had a list, he
was short, he was balding, young, he he didn't look
like a man of great stature to look at. But
my god, he saved his country and he saved the
honor of the West. I think that's why we Americans
(36:56):
looked at him more than we looked to probably any
American leader. We looked at him as the guy, the
person who really stood up. The other one is Hemingway,
because Hemingway, for whatever reason, sort of governs the way
I look at the world. I want to go. I
wanted to go to Africa, heming I was in Africa.
I want to go to France. I want to be
a Paris, especially in the Left Bank. I wish I
was there in the twenties. I love all that stuff.
(37:17):
I love catch him Idaho, Key, West, Florida, wherever he
went seems to be magical for me. And so you
explained that the church on him both had that magical
leadership over me and making me wanted to be like them.
You know. So those two, I'll stick with them. I've
been everywhere Ernest Hemingway has been because there's a family
connection there. I'll save that story for another day. Of course,
(37:39):
Hemingway was very active in Cuba. So yeah, I've been
I've been been a thinking it's magnificent. So what would
you do if you were young, Chris, if you could
tear it in the clock back and you were, you know,
young again, you think, do you think the world is
has a lot of opportunities still or what do you
(38:00):
think of where we are today? Well, if I was
doing it over again, I have to do it over again,
which bes knocking on doors. Whether it was trying to
win a primary Democratic primary and Philly against the machine,
or it was getting a job with Capitol Hill, or
it was collecting for my newspaper route, or it was
(38:22):
everything seems to come down and knocking on doors and
seeing which ones open. I guess that I don't know.
I think I might run for office again, try and
stick at it. But yet the route to that is
still the same as it always was. Go to law school, somehow,
get yourself a good parachute. So when you lose the
first couple of times, you have somewhere to go. That's
(38:43):
a big point. I have to have that parachute. So
you go back to some law firm and make it
to the next election and make connections. So maybe that
old route is still the route. I know it's even
less Cheney as a lawyer, and I think you know,
Chuck Schumer's a lawyer, and Mr McConnell. It seems like
it's still the route. I'm not sure it's healthy for
the country unless your lawyers have the best fact they don't,
(39:05):
but I do. I do think it seems to be
the one route, and you have to stay at home,
don't go to DC or New York l a stay
at home, get a law degree, and think about nothing else,
like Clinton to think about nothing else. I mostly are
like this, that's there one thing to do, and they
do it and nine and lose never you never hear
them again. But the ones you hear of all followed
(39:27):
that route. But again, nine out of ten don't make
it more than nineteen out of twenty. Maybe it's higher
than that. Very few people make it as lifetime politicians,
and they keep beating people who you never hear from again.
And then interesting for every every election, every prime they
beat a whole bunch of people you never hear of
from again. So it's a risky business. You can end
up being a nobody and listed your whole life trying
(39:48):
to be somebody. One of the themes that you touch
on and all your storytelling, Chris, is the working class
that kind of the lifeblood of this country and really
the world. Right because Ever and Swaziland or East Watine, right,
you dealt with working people like you can both your
way out of anything. But the cars have to run.
And like if lawyers ran this country, it would just
come to a grinding hall if the politicians actually had
(40:10):
to run things. So how do we remind you call?
They're the ones you call, They're the ones you call.
So how do we how do we create public policy
that creates more opportunity for for working people, for the
people who really run this country? Oh my god, I
wish I knew. I don't think it's just attacking the
hell the equity people. They're really rich, the billionaires. But
(40:30):
here's what I worry about. I worry about the separation
of Marx would talk about the separation of labor from
product and profit. That the labor there's a lot more
money made than the labor is paid. So that's you know,
surplus value, whatever you call it, belance, grace, surplus value.
So they blame the capitalists for making all the money
that the workers aren't or a big chunk of it.
(40:51):
But what's really going on today with the equity business
is people that build up companies with intrepeability then sell
them to somebody and that holder of a big equity
firm makes all the money. And then so people are
making money off money. Now, most of the billionaires today
don't have any product they can point to. They're not
Leoni Coco say, look at my car, or Henry Ford
(41:11):
look at my car. Thomas said, isn't look at my
light bulber. They don't have a thing they can point to.
Some of them do, obviously, sucking value people like Zuckerberg
and you know people like that, But most of them
are making money off money. And I worry about that
because that means that the entrepreneur isn't getting that profit.
The person is what their company up is. See what
(41:32):
I mean? So I think we're getting we're really separating
the effort that goes into creating a product for the money.
But you're describing to a tease Warren Buffett, that's like
the highest version of this who is like everybody loves
this guy. Explain, I don't I don't get it though
he never did anything. He kind of moved money around.
And I do worry about I do worry about that.
(41:53):
What do you put on the tombstuff? Was rich? I
think I think we still have a half. I don't
have to answer your question, but I do think that
mixed capitalism is still the answers somewhere between capitalism and
the government involvement with the safety and I think it's
very important, but capitalism and the problem. But is right.
But we did the code, we got the COVID, we
got that. We know, we got the fiser from durn
(42:15):
At first fights without any federal money, I guess, but
during a whist federal money, um, Jane Jay, I mean
we every current and bad guy in the world's gonna
come the United States to save their life. Our medicine
is the best in the world. It's not distributed the
best by any means, but it is the best. We
are every shock, I mean, everybody comes here because this
is where it's practice. That it's best medicine because the
(42:36):
private motive and the science that comes from it, and
the R and D and all that stuff that goes
into it. Um. So I think the private motive does
really work. The Soviet system has not worked. We saw
what happened with that. I was over there when it
was coming down, and then the head of the Communist
Party in Budapest look me in the eye and said,
the socialist model is not working. That was an amazing line.
(42:57):
I think. I don't think the socialist model and in
America is making it easier. I mean, the socialist model
is the nicest way of saying disaster. It just it
doesn't work. Selbys were great at arming revolutions and of
zero health economic development of the countries they deliberated, just zero.
They don't know anything about development in Russia is a
(43:18):
gas station with an army. You know what else is it?
This guy putting, he's just there's nothing there. He's got
nothing that all he can do is cause trouble. So
I like Biden's attempt to make him sort of buff
them up by saying we're one of the two world leaders.
I think he's trying to win him by Eukreeman to
the idea, I Joe Biden can make you one of
the two world leaders. So don't just screw around, because
(43:41):
that's just gonna make you a troublemaker. But I can
make you one of the two world leaders. That's a
pretty good offer. And I can do that. I'm the
only guy that can do it. Treat you like an equal,
and I can make you a big chat to me
to ride around your horse with your shirt off. You
could be thinking I'm one of the two world leaders,
not just I'm one of the world's troublemakers. Which one
do you like? I think Biden could be really onto something.
I hope he is. Chris, you're such an unlikely messenger
(44:03):
for me in my book. Never did I ever expect
to hear from Chris Matthews of MSNBC fame. Socialism is
a failed model. That's just like not expected. It was
the Communist Party leader of Budapest who said that, and
my son was in the room taking pictures that they got.
It was fun. Thank you, this has been a joy.
Oh you've been wonderful. Yeah, thank you so much for
(44:26):
figuring out your plot. I think you're in I think
you're in an evolutionary state here, Yeah, I know, of course. Yeah. Well,
moderation is key and I love talking to people like you,
and all the best to Kathleen and your family. Have
a great time and Nantucket. It's a beautiful place. Thank you.
By the book This Country, It's a great book. Thank you.
(44:48):
So thanks to all of you for joining me as
we Follow the Prophet, and a big things to our
producers Emileano lemon Cheyenne Read, Scott Handler, and of course
to our executive producer's new King Rich and Debbie Myers.
I'm David Grasso. If you enjoying this show as much
as I am, give us five stars and give us
a review. We read those and take your feedback in mind.
Follow the Prophet is a production of ging Rich three
(45:08):
sixty and I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you get here podcasts. All opinions expressed by
David Grasso and his guests on the show are solely
their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of ging
(45:29):
Rich three sixty or affiliates, and may have been previously
disseminated by David Grasso on this podcast, television, radio, internet,
or another medium. You should not treat any opinion expressed
by David grass So as a specific inducement to make
a particular investment or follow in particular strategy, but only
as an expression of his opinion. David Grass's opinions are
(45:49):
based upon information he considers reliable, but neither ging Rich
Productions nor its affiliates and or subsidiaries warrant its completeness
or accuracy, and it should not be relied upon as such.
David Grasso, ging Ridge Productions, its affiliates, and or subsidiaries
are not under any obligation to update or correct any
information provided on this website. David Grasslo's statements and opinions
(46:11):
are subject to change without notice. No part of David
Grasso's compensation from ging Ridge Productions is related to the
specific opinions he expresses. Past performance is not indicative of
future results. Neither David Grasslo nor ging Rich three sixty
guarantees any specific outcome or profit. You should be aware
of the real risk of loss in following any strategy
or investment discussed on this website or on the show.
(46:33):
Strategies or investments discussed may fluctuate in price or value.
Investors may get back less than invested. Investments or strategies
mentioned on this website or on the show may not
be suitable for you. This material does not take into
account your particular investment objectives, financial situation, or needs, and
is not intended as recommendations appropriate for you. You must
take an independent decision regarding investments or strategies mentioned on
(46:57):
this website or on the show. Before acting on information
on this website or on the show, you should consider
whether it is suitable for your particular circumstances and strongly
consider seeking advice from your own financial or investment advisor.
Follow The profit is a production of Gingwich three sixty
and I Heart Radio. So running a newsroom and a
country for that matter is pretty complicated. But a lot
has changed recently. Politics and media is being disrupted, and
our next guest is going to tell us what's happened
and how things have evolved. And he's been around for
(00:21):
a really long time. You might recognize him from television
Chris Matthews, of course from MSNBC fame, and of course
from politics and from a lot of other stuff too.
He's going to talk about how the world is radically
different these days and what you need to know about
what's coming up, and he's going to analyze why this
crazy mess that we call reality these days can hopefully
(00:44):
be fixed and how we need to talk about it.
I'm David Grosso and this is following the Prophet. So
here on all the profit we look to talk about money,
but the way we view the world through money, so
(01:06):
we're not looking to get rich quick. We're looking to
understand the world and make our money work for us.
And we're going to do that by deconstructing what's going
on in the world. And some of the best people
to do that are people like my next guests. But
before we get to him, let's talk about local news
and why newsrooms across the country, including right here in Orlando,
(01:29):
are being chopped up and in some stream cases closed down. So,
you know, if we go back in history too, before
America was founded, there's this guy named Benjamin Harris who
showed up in the British colonies of America, and he
settled in Boston, of course, the first part of America,
and he opened up a print shop, a bookstore, and
a coffee shop, and he did well for himself. But
(01:52):
on sept he created a product that got him in trouble.
When he was in England, he created Public Occurrences, the
very first newspaper of the colonies. And since these were
British colonies, basically the rules were the same as in
the mother country. No newspaper could be published without the
express permission of the government. Well, about a hundred years
(02:16):
later we got rid of the British and our famed
Revolutionary War, we kicked him out and a new country
was formed and a major public right was placed in
the U. S Constitution. It is, of course, I'm talking
about the First Amendment, which includes, among many other things,
freedom of speech and freedom of the press, and we
use that every day and it's something that British people
(02:37):
fundamentally still don't understand if you heard what Prince Harry
said recently about the First Amendment being a disaster. But
throughout US history that right has been cherished and challenged
because you can always challenge power with the First Amendment.
And in the meantime, we have a capitalist society, so
if you're running a media brand, you gotta make money.
(02:58):
The whole point of this is to make money or
is it to inform people? We gotta have two goals here,
and what we see these days is that revenue and
digitalization of media shaking things up, and we're seeing the
old model kind of fall apart because of a few things, right,
big tech, Google and Facebook are major purveyors of news,
(03:21):
and they're making a lot of money. And I've taken
a lot of those advertising dollars. People aren't watching TV.
I barely watch TV, you know. It's one of those
things that I more watched clips online. And then local
ads are still very popular. Of course there's car dealers
and lawyers and doctors and whatnot. But even that model
is beginning to be disrupted, So how do you fund media?
(03:47):
In fact, media is the fastest disappearing white collar profession
on Earth. It's a respectable job, or at least it was.
These days, it seems like it's a partisan charade for
a maide for mold media reality TV show and you know,
my next guest talks about that. You know, and he
worked for the big channels. He worked in the capital,
(04:09):
and he worked in the White House, and he worked
in all these places of power. And there's something weird
about media. Media is supposed to be the watchdog, but
media also has to make money. So how do you
balance those two? While unfortunately these days we've monetized things
and made things so efficient that we have a phenomenon
(04:30):
known as left wing media and right wing media. And
they don't give you the truth. They give you one
side of the truth and and more resembles politics, right
because the politician is never going to be fully upfront
about the truth. They're going to tell you the good stuff.
I'm gonna leave the bad stuff out. And it seems
(04:51):
like newspapers, digital publications, television has all pursued the political model.
But in the meantime they're still not making money. They've
pursued this damaging model, which is damaging to society and
so's division. But in the meantime, now we have news deserts.
There are places across the country that don't even have
(05:12):
a damn newspaper. So how are you supposed to check power?
Especially in rural areas and less populated areas where I
got started as a journalist, specifically, I'm talking about West
Texas and places like that. With no local media, there's
no check on power. There's no one looking after anything.
(05:34):
And it's a major problem for society because really, journalism
is supposed to be a check on power. You're supposed
to be able to question and at least, you know,
exercise your First Amendment rights. Well, that's all kind of
falling apart because of the revenue model, and it's not
good for society, and not a lot of people are
making money either. And really, in the end, the worry
(05:56):
is is that fewer eyes are really reporting what's really
happened in the world, and you know, it ends up
happening when no one's watching. Corruption. It's human. We are
all corrupt. We carry that with us, and if we
do not have our power checked, the probability of corruption
goes up and the likelihood of voting and participating in
society goes down. So how do we solve this problem? Well,
(06:20):
you know, people have all sorts of ideas. In the UK,
they have taxpayer funded journalism. That's problematic in its own right, right,
I'm talking about the BBC. But we need newsrooms, we
need journalists, we need checks on power or else we
go too far one way or too far the other.
We need to keep people informed. But this is a
very expensive endeavor. It's a very low margin business. You
(06:43):
want to follow the profit, don't go into media. There's
a lot of money in it. In fact, media is
such a tiny, tiny industry. Even Rupert Murdoch, the most
sensational media entrepreneur of our time, it doesn't make that
much money compared to the Silicon Alley folk media is powerful.
The media is not profitable. But media can do a
(07:06):
lot of damage as well as good. And we're still
trying to figure out what works nonprofits, for profits, hybrids, advocacy, um,
you know, philanthropy. We don't know yet what the answer is.
So you know, U S journalism needs a solution, and
(07:26):
it's something that everyone's kind of waiting on the sidelines
to figure out what the heck we're gonna do. Can
we both do good and make money, or does making
money ruin the model, or maybe it should be a nonprofit,
or maybe it should be funded by the government. Everything's
on the table at this point, and if you know
anything about the way anything's run, it's not easy to
find an answer. We're gonna take a quick break. Here,
(07:51):
be right back. So was a monumental year for global events.
A lot happened that year except Timber the Japanese surrendered,
leading to the end of World War Two. And in December,
over in Pennsylvania, my next guest was born. His name
is Chris Matthews. You might have seen him on MSNBC
(08:12):
over the years. He was a Philadelphia and he's still
a Philadelphia proud one and a baseball fan at that
and he entered into the world of politics and journalism,
and he lived in the post World War and the
post World War world showed him how to be an adult.
And when he first got to d C, he was
a US Capitol Police officer. Well, we're gonna have to
(08:34):
ask him a few questions about that. And from there
He served on the staffs of four Democratic members of Congress.
He was a speechwriter for President Carter and chief of
staff for Speaker of the House Tip O'Neil. If you're young,
that was the guy who but it heads with President Reagan,
of course in the decade that I was born, in
the nineteen eighties, and then he ended up being what
(08:55):
I know him as the host of Hardball on MSNBC.
How are you doing today, Chris, it's great be on.
You have all my background statistics, and you have the
color of the game too. So tell me. Capitol police
officer that's been in the news lately, tell me a
little bit more about that. I have a tendency, like
far As Gump, to be where the action is in
(09:15):
thee I was a Capitol Police but and our big
demonstrations in those days were relatively tamed. There were protests
against the Vietnam War, and I have to say one
thing that they did it better back then. I remember
going out to do my job during the big May
Day demonstration against the war on the Capitol grounds and
in the basement there's a messanin's either mezzanine or the
(09:38):
basement of the Capitol there was incredible force of heavily
armed swat team guys and ryant gears, shields, guns, I mean,
and everything, and they were hiding there out of sight
in case something went wrong. And I thought, oh my god,
I wouldn't have been great if in one on January
six we had that cavalry ready its charged to the
(10:01):
to the doors to compliment and to reinforce all the
regular cops standing at the doors in their regular day
to day uniforms, that Ryan squad of people have been
able to go to the doors being charged. They would
have thrown back that crowd. Nobody would have been killed.
They would have batted a few heads, perhaps with their sticks,
but that would have been a pretty calm thing instead
of what we saw. And see that as an insurrection,
(10:22):
as a defiling, a desecration of our capital. So, Chris,
we tend to see this era as unprecedented. But if
you talk to people who have been around for a while,
like yourself, there's been problems at the capitol. Like what
you saw. You you said there was a whole unit
downstairs waiting for trouble. Well, they had shields, and how
(10:42):
much they were ready for trouble? And I thought it
was good to show that they didn't want to intimidate
the crowd, neestly college kids, anti war people. They weren't
bad people, obviously, they weren't like this crowd. They was
trying to overthrow the government. They just wanted that war stops,
and it eventually did stop. The course stop. But in
those days would say the long hairs versus the hard hats.
So it was the construction guys, the guys who work
(11:03):
with their hands, who are basically the trumpets trumpies of today.
There is a pattern there of the college kids versus
the town versus gown, if you will, that that division
by education level was going on back then. You know,
I worked with a copy Lebroy Taylor from West Virginia,
working guy. Country guy told me he pulled me aside
one day and he said, you know why the little
(11:24):
man loves his country. It was always got, It's always God.
And he was teaching me about the guy with not
a big glamorous family or money or anything like that,
or a big house or a big job, but just
as an American and how he treasured his country and
his view of it was a very conservative you. And
so that that was going on your right. It was
going on back then. This fellow was trying to educate
(11:46):
me to it. So why do we have such a
profound divide? So you've been you have a unique perspective
to bring to this. Right, Like in your era, you
worked for Tip O'Neil when he would sit at the
table with Ronald Reagan and they were political opposites, but
they talked. Why is that falling apart these days? Well?
I think money. I think that people that give them
(12:07):
candidates want them to be extreme, to be polarized. They
don't want to be seen with each other. Just think
about this. Iconically, back in the seventies and eighties, you
would have these golf tournaments. I admitted this is just anecdotal,
but it was to me tells me a lot. You
would see pictures of the Republican leader Jerry Ford, who
later became president, and to put the playing golf together,
(12:30):
arm in arm. You know, there's crazy cough costumes they
used to wear those. There's all those crazy colors, ridiculous costumes,
and they would be like pounding around. You will not
see a Democrat and a Republican today powing around. They
will not let themselves have their pictures taken poling around
because that will offend their contributors. You see, their contributors
(12:50):
pay them tens of thousands of dollars to be their friends,
not just political supporters, but to be their friends. I
say that it was sarcasm, but they don't want to
see them friends with the other side because that confuses them.
They're paying not just for political point a point of view,
but for friendship. This is the social life of a
lot of these people. They give the politicians to be
(13:10):
accepted into a kind of social group, you know, a cotillion,
if you will, an assembly in the old way, you
know what I mean. So they don't want to see
they don't want to see the other side pound around
the other side. I mean there there's this true word
on the left to the left doesn't want to see
any friendship on the other side because that suggests you're
not really committed. So today's politics is very different. It's
(13:34):
about anger, it's about resentment. But if you classes of
people education, people that didn't get a college education resent
those who did. The ones that the Ivy League are
resented by those that didn't go to the Ivy League.
It's tremendously based on education now in class, and yeah,
I think that's it. We don't like that word in
American class, but it's there. Well, you know a lot
(13:55):
about that, Chris, So I think you came of age
during a time when Irish people were still a large
lee uh you know, blue collar folk. And now in
this country you know, uh, you know, someone like Sean
Hannity's an Irish person and he's a wild conservative. So
it's it's like a perfectly different era. I wouldn't call
that an upgrading class in his time. But you don't
(14:17):
have to tell you. When the World Trade Towers were hit,
it was a point of pride with me that the
Irish Americans were both the ones with Cander Fitzgerald up
the top floors. They're also in the police force. We
lost Irish Americans and that going charging up those stairs
when everybody else was coming down. I'm very proud of
those guys, mostly guys from the boroughs, who went to
(14:38):
save that building. But I'm also proud of the ones
who made it to the top floors with the big
equity firms, you know, the big financial houses. You know,
I don't think the Irish are we cover all the
bass you have opened up my tribal knowledge here, which
is I don't usually talk about it, but I always
saw you as that, and no one ever told me that.
I guess it's because of my ethnic backgroud. I always
saw you as like the firebrand Irish. I like, you know,
(15:01):
there's the raging Cajun and then there's Chris Matthews, who's
like the face of Irish America. But maybe it shows
I saw it, and I know one ever told me
you were Irish. I just noticed the politics, and you
know it's I feel like Irish Americans is one of
the most successful assimilation stories in America that no one
(15:22):
talks about. That took a while, though it always so
this donor class that you're talking about, aren't they most
of your age? Is this a generational thing? Is this
something your generation has demanded? They're waiting for their ambassadorships
right now? Right? Isn't the fact that Biden hasn't made
these announcements yet because it's a little ticklish, a little uh,
(15:45):
a little question there. You only had some hit for that.
They always do get hit for it for a day
or two. So don't people your age understand that they're
like leaving a world behind for people my age. That
is a little challenging. Well, I think it was Ronald
Reagan had said that all this stuff that was invented
was invented by our generations. Everything, all that, all that,
(16:07):
that's why is everybody plays with every day. And when
you see four young women for examples, and men sitting
together at lunchtime, they're on their phones. And they didn't
invent those phones. They were invented by their forebears, if
you will. But as a cranky argument, I I think
people today are different. I think they're more liberal, more
progressive on LGBT, on on a race, certainly race. Uh,
(16:29):
A young kid will come back from school today and
not say that the teacher is African American. They wouldn't
even note it as important. Back in my day, they
would note it that say it. It It would be negative,
but then say it. I think people aren't so on
interracial marriage, if you will, The numbers are completely upside
down from where they were in my era. You know,
percents say it's fine with them. Last night, there was
(16:51):
four percent that was fine with them a black and
white relationship. So that has definitely changed. So we'll see
how it develops into a society. Well it would carry
are you want into adulthood? Would? Will it really change
the way neighborhoods are arraid how people live in neighborhoods.
People say they want to live in an integrated neighborhood.
I believe that, and I know that from Capitol Hill
in Washington, where people are moving to. They like neighborhoods
(17:12):
a little grittier, a little more urban, you know what
I mean. They don't want to live in some boring suburb.
They want to get into where the there's a sense
of city, you know what I mean. So that's changed.
So let's talk about you a little bit. At different
points in your life, you've been accused of being too
conservative or too liberal, or you know, don't go ahead
and use the word accusation. I have been too conservative
(17:33):
compared to some of my colleagues, certainly, certainly, but compared
to the people in the other networks, I was a liberal.
So you look at it different. Tell me more about that,
Chris Well. I think from compared to MSNBC, I would
more conservative than most of the people on the network,
not all of them, not Joe. I don't think Nicole
I don't think Stephanie, I don't think Brian. Brian's politics
(17:55):
are hard to read. But maybe we're more less liberal
than the people in prime time Joy Now and and
Chris Hayes and Rage and of course Lawrence. I think
I'm probably a little tagged to the right of them. Yeah,
but my issues are the war and interack, my wars.
My issues are voter rights, basic rights, opposition to wars.
(18:16):
You know, I can argue about inflation with some of
this big spending it and I think we're gonna have
a higher crime rate because of some of the intimidation.
Perhaps a good police officers will stop doing their job.
That's what we have to be really afraid of it.
When you call nine one, you want a good cop
to show up. You don't want nobody to show up.
That makes me sound more conservative, I am. So tell
(18:37):
me more about this inflation and government spending. Because the
last time inflation was around, you are already of age
in the nineteen seventies. Tell us about it. We never
lived through this. I studied economics, I was in grad
schools and a PhD. Probably basically there's demand pull. You
have too many dollars chasing too few goods and services.
So when all of a sudden there's several trillion dollars
in the economy floating around looking for places to go,
(18:59):
and there's not any more people working, or maybe a
fewer because of COVID, and there's no no more goods
out there. People compete for the goods with higher prices.
People pay more. You go to a restaurant, you don't
complain about the extra five or ten bucks for the entree.
You don't argue as hard as you do before for
a hotel bill. I mean a lot of this is
at the top end, but it's also about gas. You know,
(19:21):
there's only only some of whose guests, and there's more
money people trying to get into, they raise the prices.
This is what goes on in economics, supply and demand
loaders supply bigger demand, higher price, and that's what's going
on now. But the political class explains this away, and
if I turn on your former channel, this is not
an issue because they have the belief in the new
monetary policy, which is magical, which you can spend all
(19:44):
the money in one in Washington, is not gonna have
an impact, is going to manipulate money, and everything's gonna
be fine. Well, the FED is going to do what
they can demonetize this dead, but I see it's not
really working. They keep missing their expectations. I read it
every day now, Fed's expectations about interest rates coming up
earlier is the way off, and every day it's more
way off. So anyway, not to over criticize them, because
(20:06):
they're doing their best. But you know, if the money's
out there, it's gonna get spent, and if it's gonna
be spent, it's gonna compete for goods and services. So
this will help salaries at the bottom line. People are
hard to fill their their their workforces now, so hopefully
that'll mean supplying to man, hey, I want Sundrip Bucks
in now. No, I want seven team Bucks now. Sorry, buddy,
(20:27):
you want me or not? You know, that's what I
think workers are probably gonna start doing now because they
have everywhere you go, you know, getting a car fixed
or anything. By the way, mechanics are probably gonna get
big salaries out of this because people are trying to
get in their cars out and they started driving around.
They're not working. They want to they want to fix things.
Is that generally good for society? Then or it's a
(20:48):
I think, I think we've got to help the people
at the at the you know, the most important people
that want's trying to work into the middle class, trying
to make it. You know, they're trying to get so
they're trying to get their hooks into something like solid
hopes of the next twenty years, a career that's gonna
get a job that's gonna keep them solid for a
long time. That's what everybody wants. But your generation has
(21:11):
kind of devoured the middle class in this country the
policies of and I can blame both parties that like
the middle classes all hollowed out. It doesn't seem like
it exists anymore. Well, depends what you want done. You know,
the most valuable people were in Africa and eyes the
peace car mechanics, because the cars have to run. There's
(21:32):
no bs about it. The car is not working. It's
not working. You don't need a PhD in the philosophy
or or Shakespeare. Which need is a guy or what
I'm gonna could fix the car. And those were the
last people that were pushed out after independence because they said,
no matter what the government, ministers need to have their
cars moving. So the liberals, with the good talks and
a nice language about race, they might go first because
(21:55):
they're dispensable. But the mechanics you didn't get rid of him.
You needed the car to work. So in a sense,
our society is going to get warmed up. The plumber.
Remember the movie Moonstruck, and the richest guy in the
movie was it was the plumber, not not the professor
at n y U, but the plumber. So so so, Chris,
my grandfather's business was never expropriated in Communist Cuba because
(22:18):
he was a mechanic. So you make an excellent point.
So even the Commies needed by the way, they still stucked.
They still sucked. The Communies are just as bad as ever.
I just said it to you, just as bad as
just like East Germany. I was in East Germany when
the wall came down, and they treated all the East
Germans like second class citizens. They got lousy currency to
get the good East Marks, not deutsch marks. They were
(22:39):
the factory managers to school principles. The really good communists
that do well, they're doing their jobs, got the worst money.
They couldn't travel. They could go to two countries for vacation,
Poland and hungry, lots of fun. That's all they could
travel to. They couldn't go to the hotels, they couldn't
go to the restaurants. Only the tourists couldn't. Guess what
that's like Cuba today, Cuba, Cuba is a horsh screw
(23:01):
the regular, regular people. The regular people are getting screwed.
I got no time for cash. The Castro brothers. And
by the way, that when you talking about keep talking
about my generation. In the late fifties, when Castro came in,
we all bought his line that he was a liberal Democrat,
that he was going to bring democracy. He's gonna get
rid of all the dictatorship and the corruption and the
(23:22):
prostitution and all that stuff. Yeah, I'm right right. You
didn't get rid of the prostitution. He didn't get rid
of the corruption, and the only got rid of freedom.
And he announced he was a communist and a loyal
servant of the Soviet Union and betrayed all of us
who rooted for him against Batista. He just did it.
He just said one day I'm a communist. I fooled
to you guys. The only guy didn't fool was Nixon.
Nixon spotted him from the beginning, and he said he
(23:45):
hated that guy said, how did that guy know? He
used to reading about Castro and Nixon. It's a fascinating story. Well,
you're talking about my family's experience. Thank you about I hope,
I hope I'm getting it right. Oh, you got it.
You're straight on. But you you sound con servative these days, Chris,
because I see a lot of liberals with Jay flags,
and you know, they're they're kind of like falling into
(24:06):
the same traps that you know, maybe people of the
past in well, they don't know what they're talking about.
There was a lot of romance though back in my
day in college. Everybody, you know, one of the congress
woman got in trouble with that. Join the Vince Ramos brigade.
You know, let's go to Cuban, help the revolution. Let's
go help them cutch sugar so that there are people
(24:26):
can go to school. Remember that, Well you don't remember,
but that's what going on. There's a lot of romance
about cash Joe and j of course, my kids got
che Carey sweat t shirts. You know, I know about that.
But the truth is he was a communist dictatorship. That
extuecuted six people the minute he came into office by
firing squad. He was not some romantic good guy. But
(24:47):
I know that. But many of my colleagues don't know that,
so well, they're wrong. And by the way, I don't
call me a conservative because I mean a communist, because
all good liberals are anti communist stuff. Well, and maybe
they need to hear that. That's an important line, Chris,
so they do. We're gonna take a quick break here,
be right back. Okay, So let's before I get into media,
(25:12):
which is the supposed to be the point of this interview.
I want to talk about your your stance on policing.
You mentioned it, and you know the economic impact of that,
you know, crime. Jimmy Carter once said, if you call
somebody a racist, you've lost them. They're going they're never
gonna come back to you because they don't like the
look of it, the sound of it, they don't like
the accused of it, and whatever their attitudes are how
(25:33):
they were brought up. It doesn't work. And by the way,
when you attack police, do you think the bad cops
here it? The band cops are always gonna be the
bad cops. But the good cops. Oh my god, I
gotta get home to my wife and kids and my
in laws and everybody in my neighborhood. I go to
church with them and they look at me as one
of the bad guys. You're not helping this situation. So
we gotta have discernment. We have to discern and keep
(25:56):
the cases to the cases. And there is a systemic problem,
and a police force deal with it. But when you
downline one one, you want somebody to show up who's
comfortable with their authority, not abusing it, but confident enough
to do their job and protect you. Be strong. And
we need those people because as long as we live
in a society that has social problems and crime, we
(26:18):
have to have people to deal with it. And I
worry that a police officer today, as a reasonable forty
five year old police but says, I've got an hour
to go before my ship's up. Do I really want
to go into that club in the middle of the
night when this fighting going on? I really want to
go in there. I really want to go into a
domestic situation where there's not just frying pants flying across
the room, but knives and stuff like that. Do I
(26:38):
really want to go in that room with my gun.
I don't want to go go relax and take it out.
Oh I'm off in an hour. Let me get out
of here. I'm telling you human interest humans common sense
tells you we don't have society on your side. Why
would you risk your life? Isn't that reasonable? But isn't
that reasonable? That's my general perspective. Reform instead of defunding.
(27:00):
You know that sounds too normal, and that's not in
you know, the media sphere. You don't hear that. You
either hear defond or Blue Lives Matter. You don't hear
the middle, correct. I think we've all, well, not all
of this, but we've had different experiences with police. But
some of them are brusque, arrogant, maybe awful in some cases,
and others are there to help you of course, and
(27:20):
uh maybe that's just human nature that some people have
good days and bad days. But we have to encourage
the good days. I was a cop and what we
really like to do is give people directions. In the
Capitol building, we do what we like people coming up
there and say, well when was this builder? How when
when the British break in? Tell me where the where
the bullet holes. That's what I like to show people,
(27:42):
the bullet holes in the ceiling of that what we
call the British steps where they broke in in the
War of a T twelve and the bullet holes are
still there. That was fun, you know, telling people about
the history of their country. You know they don't want
to mix it up with racists. And although one guy
came up to me during that demonstration, I told you
about that hit him once. For me, what he thought
I was some redneck, angry cop who just wanted to
(28:05):
about hit coming his head in. I had friends. I
had definitely one friend at least was in that protest.
So I didn't like that guy who come up to
me and assumed I was some sort of thug that
he needed to encourage to be more thuggish. So tell
me about media, Chris, so you I watched you a
lot on MSNBC back when I watched cable. What do
(28:25):
you think about media today because you are a very
prominent media person and now you get to see it
from that look. I don't know. I don't think it's uh.
I think it's what I always said. If people see
what you see is Ronald Reagulan said, don't be afraid
to see what you see. If you see something that's
only telling one side of the story, I get a
little suspicious about the facts you're getting, but they may
be factually accurate. You know, when and when you take
(28:48):
the standard court, you're asked to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing. But try that for a standard
from a cable anchor. The truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the words. Don't throw in cheap shots. Acknowledge
there's a cost to anything you're pushing. It's always the
question of getting it right. Whether it's black lives, which
(29:08):
is a wonderful cause it has to be used the
right way, or it's reven infrastructure. Yes to a point,
At what point doesn't inflate the economy? I think you
have to look at things with a little discernment, and
you can't just take a side and yell and assume
like if your party ran the country, everything would be swelled.
That's not I guess, is the the conceit of both sides,
(29:31):
left and right. They have the conceit that if all
we left, I like there were liberal Democrats since sev seven,
if all we ever did was et unlike liberal everything
would be just swimmingly going along and everything would be great. No. No,
And if we'd like to just conservatives, no, it was
(29:53):
just conservatis. We wouldn't have so security, we wouldn't have Medicare,
we wouldn't have college loans, probably at least the ones.
I had a lot of things we just wouldn't have.
We wouldn't have that. We might not have had anything good.
I don't know, but I think if the republic has
had their way, I think if the Democrats have had
their way, my god, I don't know who would have
kept counting, who kept count of the money? Because they
(30:13):
don't say no, they just say yes. You know, somebody's
got to hold you back once in a while. So
it's this tension between both sides, right, But that's not
what you see on MSNBC, Fox or CNN these days.
In fact, well, I'm not a media critic. It's like
a baseball player criticizing other baseball players. I don't want
to do that, but I do think, you know, when hardball,
(30:35):
I'll start with the idea of I was willing to
ask the question three times, not just twice. I was
willing to be obnoxious until people saw they're not answering
the question. And sometimes it really worked, and sometimes didn't work,
and sometimes I just looked ounoxious, and sometimes I got
somebody answers, like getting Trump to admit it was gonna
his his idea of pro life was to punish the woman.
(30:55):
Well he got off of that quick, or getting Zell
Miller to want to have a duel with me. But otherwise,
you know, it aggravates people. They don't like their people.
They're they're heroes getting a second degree. They do not
like them big questions, and the and the people on
the left, certainly as much as the right, hate being
cross examined. They don't like being questioned closely. They want
(31:18):
to be taken exactly at their word. The talking points
should be swallowed hale, and anything short of that is
to question their legitimacy, which, by the way, having worked
in politics, the politician never tells the bad stuff. They
tell you the best possible story they can tell. So
work from there down to truth, you know what I mean,
because they're not going to tell you anything short of
(31:40):
what sounds good. They're just not except really a good one.
Really maybe a really good politicians self deprecating now and
then I think I think pe like John McCain, they
come across them that didn't have sort of a bob dole.
You sort of get people that pat morning and maybe
didn't you getting close to the truth to some of them.
(32:01):
So tell me about the way you ended things there.
I know what I mean. We live in a world
of nda s or whatever. But what should the audience
know about your transition and career? Because if I don't
ask you, the question went on, I went on. I
went on the ear March second and said that I
had complimented a woman in the makeup chair the makeup room,
and I should have done it, And that is the
(32:21):
beginning and end of it. That's what put the pressure
on me to make a decision. I decided to do
it my way and it just ended. But the facts
are there and check around. Yeah no, I've read it,
of course. But and you've come out since and you've
said that the Me Too movement is actually a positive
development in society, just like you said black lives. But
I think part I think, I think everything has to
(32:43):
be It gets refined over time. Things go one direction
and they get synthesized into something a little more sophisticated.
But yeah, people that go to work, women to go
to work especially, don't have to have people appraising their
their appearance during the work work hours, certainly, and that
that's certainly reasonable to me. A daughter he's in business
world at the night and a wife was an anchor woman.
(33:03):
I think that's a reasonable new standard, a good standard. Great.
So tell me about your book and how you wrote
it and how you got the idea to do it.
Your books called This Country and it's a your memoir basically, Well,
I worked on it for two years and I decided
Simon Shuster said they wanted the book which was the
story of my professional life starting way back, and well
my life really and it really has a great panoramic
(33:26):
fact factor to it. I mean, I was in the
Peace Corp in Africa for two years. I was teaching
business and riding around a motorcycle country Swasi lynd that's
Swati now the re changes. Yeah, and then I was
able to hitchhike up all with colemen Jarrow, amazing adventures.
I had an additional the work I was doing. And
(33:49):
by the way, I used to think of myself as
a bourgeois che Rivera because he was teaching communism in
Latin America and I was teaching business and romantic But
I really did think about it when I was write
around my bike, and then you know, and then I
came back to the Hill, Capitol Hill. I got the
pop job, the police job. I worked my way up
to speech writer to President Carter. I was on the
(34:09):
plane with him writing speeches right to the end, flying
on Marine one the morning we lost. And then I
worked for six years as Tipo Nil's guy, and I
worked against Ronald Reagan every morning, listening to his old
stories from the old days and fighting with Reagan, occasionally
cutting deals with him, which I thought it was great.
I wrote a book about that, and then turning the
journalism with the San Francisco Examiner, and having a great
(34:31):
opportunity to cover the Berlin Wall coming down, being there
when it happened, being in South Africa, when African America,
the Africans, I keep saying, African Americans, Africans of course
became eligible to vote, and that thanks to Nelson Mandel,
they all voted for the new government of Nelson Mandel.
The a n C came in and he wouldn't even
leave prison for twenty eight years, he's still in prison.
(34:52):
He said, I'm not coming out to illegalize my party,
and realized the Communist Party too. For us, I'm not
coming out. So he insists it on the government changing
the majority rule by elections, not by blood blood warfare.
So I other things like the Belfast Agreement Good Friday
between the Irish and the Protestants, of the Catholics, of
(35:12):
the Protestants. My family comes from both sides, and both
I resides, and I'd love to see that piece, that
piece tree. And I got to see the Pope's funeral,
which was a majestic affair. So it's truly about my
life and politics of all my words with politicians, covering
all the political campaigns, going back to uh, it's pretty
amazing life. And I looked when I look back, and
(35:34):
I said, my god, this is a story. I've been
writing about the Kennedy's and Tippoo and Reagan and all that.
And I said, mon, I read about myself this time.
Who do you admire the most? Chris Well, this only
gets me in trouble, Churchill. Why does that get you
in trouble a lot? Because the Liberals? Yeah, I think
you're always where you're listening to footsteps. I think you're
(35:54):
listening to what progressives today. They all think he's you know,
yesterday and all I thought. He had a person at
a carry dirt and stand against the world and said,
I'm gonna stop the Nazis. I'm gonna do it, no
matter what if my party says, no matter what my
country says, I'm gonna do it because it has to
be done. It's the right thing to do. And he
did it, and he's been a life like that of
being a person of character. My favorite story about him
(36:15):
is when he was in It was in prep school
and what English called public school, and he was at
Harrow and he brought his governess, his nanny basically up
to the school and walked around on the high street
with Hord next to him and he said, this is
somebody said in the most bravest they never saw his life.
For a young kid to be seen with this danny
and and being proud enough with her to say, I
(36:35):
don't care what you guys think, throw stones at me,
make fun of me. I love my my, my nanny,
my woman, he called her so. From a very early
age he had this gun, He had a list, he
was short, he was balding, young, he he didn't look
like a man of great stature to look at. But
my god, he saved his country and he saved the
honor of the West. I think that's why we Americans
(36:56):
looked at him more than we looked to probably any
American leader. We looked at him as the guy, the
person who really stood up. The other one is Hemingway,
because Hemingway, for whatever reason, sort of governs the way
I look at the world. I want to go. I
wanted to go to Africa, heming I was in Africa.
I want to go to France. I want to be
a Paris, especially in the Left Bank. I wish I
was there in the twenties. I love all that stuff.
(37:17):
I love catch him Idaho, Key, West, Florida, wherever he
went seems to be magical for me. And so you
explained that the church on him both had that magical
leadership over me and making me wanted to be like them.
You know. So those two, I'll stick with them. I've
been everywhere Ernest Hemingway has been because there's a family
connection there. I'll save that story for another day. Of course,
(37:39):
Hemingway was very active in Cuba. So yeah, I've been
I've been been a thinking it's magnificent. So what would
you do if you were young, Chris, if you could
tear it in the clock back and you were, you know,
young again, you think, do you think the world is
has a lot of opportunities still or what do you
(38:00):
think of where we are today? Well, if I was
doing it over again, I have to do it over again,
which bes knocking on doors. Whether it was trying to
win a primary Democratic primary and Philly against the machine,
or it was getting a job with Capitol Hill, or
it was collecting for my newspaper route, or it was
(38:22):
everything seems to come down and knocking on doors and
seeing which ones open. I guess that I don't know.
I think I might run for office again, try and
stick at it. But yet the route to that is
still the same as it always was. Go to law school, somehow,
get yourself a good parachute. So when you lose the
first couple of times, you have somewhere to go. That's
(38:43):
a big point. I have to have that parachute. So
you go back to some law firm and make it
to the next election and make connections. So maybe that
old route is still the route. I know it's even
less Cheney as a lawyer, and I think you know,
Chuck Schumer's a lawyer, and Mr McConnell. It seems like
it's still the route. I'm not sure it's healthy for
the country unless your lawyers have the best fact they don't,
(39:05):
but I do. I do think it seems to be
the one route, and you have to stay at home,
don't go to DC or New York l a stay
at home, get a law degree, and think about nothing else,
like Clinton to think about nothing else. I mostly are
like this, that's there one thing to do, and they
do it and nine and lose never you never hear
them again. But the ones you hear of all followed
(39:27):
that route. But again, nine out of ten don't make
it more than nineteen out of twenty. Maybe it's higher
than that. Very few people make it as lifetime politicians,
and they keep beating people who you never hear from again.
And then interesting for every every election, every prime they
beat a whole bunch of people you never hear of
from again. So it's a risky business. You can end
up being a nobody and listed your whole life trying
(39:48):
to be somebody. One of the themes that you touch
on and all your storytelling, Chris, is the working class
that kind of the lifeblood of this country and really
the world. Right because Ever and Swaziland or East Watine, right,
you dealt with working people like you can both your
way out of anything. But the cars have to run.
And like if lawyers ran this country, it would just
come to a grinding hall if the politicians actually had
(40:10):
to run things. So how do we remind you call?
They're the ones you call, They're the ones you call.
So how do we how do we create public policy
that creates more opportunity for for working people, for the
people who really run this country? Oh my god, I
wish I knew. I don't think it's just attacking the
hell the equity people. They're really rich, the billionaires. But
(40:30):
here's what I worry about. I worry about the separation
of Marx would talk about the separation of labor from
product and profit. That the labor there's a lot more
money made than the labor is paid. So that's you know,
surplus value, whatever you call it, belance, grace, surplus value.
So they blame the capitalists for making all the money
that the workers aren't or a big chunk of it.
(40:51):
But what's really going on today with the equity business
is people that build up companies with intrepeability then sell
them to somebody and that holder of a big equity
firm makes all the money. And then so people are
making money off money. Now, most of the billionaires today
don't have any product they can point to. They're not
Leoni Coco say, look at my car, or Henry Ford
(41:11):
look at my car. Thomas said, isn't look at my
light bulber. They don't have a thing they can point to.
Some of them do, obviously, sucking value people like Zuckerberg
and you know people like that, But most of them
are making money off money. And I worry about that
because that means that the entrepreneur isn't getting that profit.
The person is what their company up is. See what
(41:32):
I mean? So I think we're getting we're really separating
the effort that goes into creating a product for the money.
But you're describing to a tease Warren Buffett, that's like
the highest version of this who is like everybody loves
this guy. Explain, I don't I don't get it though
he never did anything. He kind of moved money around.
And I do worry about I do worry about that.
(41:53):
What do you put on the tombstuff? Was rich? I
think I think we still have a half. I don't
have to answer your question, but I do think that
mixed capitalism is still the answers somewhere between capitalism and
the government involvement with the safety and I think it's
very important, but capitalism and the problem. But is right.
But we did the code, we got the COVID, we
got that. We know, we got the fiser from durn
(42:15):
At first fights without any federal money, I guess, but
during a whist federal money, um, Jane Jay, I mean
we every current and bad guy in the world's gonna
come the United States to save their life. Our medicine
is the best in the world. It's not distributed the
best by any means, but it is the best. We
are every shock, I mean, everybody comes here because this
is where it's practice. That it's best medicine because the
(42:36):
private motive and the science that comes from it, and
the R and D and all that stuff that goes
into it. Um. So I think the private motive does
really work. The Soviet system has not worked. We saw
what happened with that. I was over there when it
was coming down, and then the head of the Communist
Party in Budapest look me in the eye and said,
the socialist model is not working. That was an amazing line.
(42:57):
I think. I don't think the socialist model and in
America is making it easier. I mean, the socialist model
is the nicest way of saying disaster. It just it
doesn't work. Selbys were great at arming revolutions and of
zero health economic development of the countries they deliberated, just zero.
They don't know anything about development in Russia is a
(43:18):
gas station with an army. You know what else is it?
This guy putting, he's just there's nothing there. He's got
nothing that all he can do is cause trouble. So
I like Biden's attempt to make him sort of buff
them up by saying we're one of the two world leaders.
I think he's trying to win him by Eukreeman to
the idea, I Joe Biden can make you one of
the two world leaders. So don't just screw around, because
(43:41):
that's just gonna make you a troublemaker. But I can
make you one of the two world leaders. That's a
pretty good offer. And I can do that. I'm the
only guy that can do it. Treat you like an equal,
and I can make you a big chat to me
to ride around your horse with your shirt off. You
could be thinking I'm one of the two world leaders,
not just I'm one of the world's troublemakers. Which one
do you like? I think Biden could be really onto something.
I hope he is. Chris, you're such an unlikely messenger
(44:03):
for me in my book. Never did I ever expect
to hear from Chris Matthews of MSNBC fame. Socialism is
a failed model. That's just like not expected. It was
the Communist Party leader of Budapest who said that, and
my son was in the room taking pictures that they got.
It was fun. Thank you, this has been a joy.
Oh you've been wonderful. Yeah, thank you so much for
(44:26):
figuring out your plot. I think you're in I think
you're in an evolutionary state here, Yeah, I know, of course. Yeah. Well,
moderation is key and I love talking to people like you,
and all the best to Kathleen and your family. Have
a great time and Nantucket. It's a beautiful place. Thank you.
By the book This Country, It's a great book. Thank you.
(44:48):
So thanks to all of you for joining me as
we Follow the Prophet, and a big things to our
producers Emileano lemon Cheyenne Read, Scott Handler, and of course
to our executive producer's new King Rich and Debbie Myers.
I'm David Grasso. If you enjoying this show as much
as I am, give us five stars and give us
a review. We read those and take your feedback in mind.
Follow the Prophet is a production of ging Rich three
(45:08):
sixty and I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you get here podcasts. All opinions expressed by
David Grasso and his guests on the show are solely
their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of ging
(45:29):
Rich three sixty or affiliates, and may have been previously
disseminated by David Grasso on this podcast, television, radio, internet,
or another medium. You should not treat any opinion expressed
by David grass So as a specific inducement to make
a particular investment or follow in particular strategy, but only
as an expression of his opinion. David Grass's opinions are
(45:49):
based upon information he considers reliable, but neither ging Rich
Productions nor its affiliates and or subsidiaries warrant its completeness
or accuracy, and it should not be relied upon as such.
David Grasso, ging Ridge Productions, its affiliates, and or subsidiaries
are not under any obligation to update or correct any
information provided on this website. David Grasslo's statements and opinions
(46:11):
are subject to change without notice. No part of David
Grasso's compensation from ging Ridge Productions is related to the
specific opinions he expresses. Past performance is not indicative of
future results. Neither David Grasslo nor ging Rich three sixty
guarantees any specific outcome or profit. You should be aware
of the real risk of loss in following any strategy
or investment discussed on this website or on the show.
(46:33):
Strategies or investments discussed may fluctuate in price or value.
Investors may get back less than invested. Investments or strategies
mentioned on this website or on the show may not
be suitable for you. This material does not take into
account your particular investment objectives, financial situation, or needs, and
is not intended as recommendations appropriate for you. You must
take an independent decision regarding investments or strategies mentioned on
(46:57):
this website or on the show. Before acting on information
on this website or on the show, you should consider
whether it is suitable for your particular circumstances and strongly
consider seeking advice from your own financial or investment advisor.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.