January 30, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, Migdalia Raino opens up about the heartbreaking journey of her son Nick’s involvement with Shekinah Church and 7M Films, detailing the troubling changes she witnessed in him over the years. She shares how Nick’s love for dance led him to the church, but soon the group’s emotional and financial manipulation began to tear apart his connection with his family. Migdalia also discusses her relentless efforts to reconnect with her son, expose the church’s harmful practices, and navigate the frustrating legal barriers in her quest for justice. Through her powerful personal story, Migdalia offers invaluable insights and hope for other families struggling with the dangers of high-control groups.
Forgive Me For I Have Followed continues the exploration from Netflix’s hit Dancing for the Devil documentary series by delving deeper into the personal stories of those affected by Robert Shinn, Shekinah Church, and 7M Films. We will focus on the experiences of victims and their families, address urgent questions raised in the documentary, and gather insights from former members and dancers. Our goal is to uncover strategies for combating abuse and ensuring that controlling, cult-like communities are held accountable for their actions.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
He agreed to meet us for lunch, and it was
one of the most awkward things you could imagine. A
young man that you raised for twenty five years and
he could barely look at us in the eye.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
jessicasiveto executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for the
Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series explored
the story of Robert Schin, the La based Chakaina Church
and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over two
decades ago before establishing seven M Films and is named
in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chaicina Church and
Seven M Films.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
In this episode, Mgdalia Riano opens up about the heartbreaking
journey of her son, Nick's involvement with Chakaina Church in
Seven M Films, detailing the trouble changes she witnessed in
him over the years. She shares how Nick's love for
dance led him to the church, but soon the group's
emotional and financial manipulation began to tear apart. His connection
(01:13):
with his family mcdalia also discusses her relentless efforts to
reconnect with her son, expose the church's harmful practices, and
navigate the frustrating legal barriers in her quest for justice.
Through her powerful personal story, mcdalia offers invaluable insight and
hope for other families struggling with dangers of high controlled groups.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
After we recently received a letter from one of our
past guests, Amanda, a letter from decades ago that parallels
the experiences many families are feeling currently, we felt it
was important to give the perspective of the families affected,
their heartbreak and hope. Now our conversation with mgdalia.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Welcome back to another episode of Forgive Me For I
have followed. Before we get into our interview with mcdhalia,
one of the things that kind of sparked this conversation
was Amanda, who we had on a previous episode text
Us and had said that her dad found this letter
that he wrote in two thousand and four, and that
(02:21):
letter was to Amanda's aunt. At that time, Amanda was
still in Chicaina, and so we thought we would start
this episode by reading that letter before we go into
the conversation with Mcdaalia.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
So the letter starts, Dear Sylvia, just want to take
a few minutes to thank you for your prayerful concern.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Over a Mandy.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Minnie and I have continued to pray for her every
Sunday morning. We pray and fast together. We are praying
that God will remove that pastor and disband that church.
We are set and to know, many people, mostly young,
are being robbed of their time, money, and relationships. While
I am more and more concerned with the ongoing distance
that has developed in our relationship with her, I am
(03:03):
confident that God is faithful. Though I have not studied
the faith movement thoroughly, what Minnie and I heard from
Mandy's pastor's own lips that Sunday morning we visited was
enough to convince me that his teachings are in air
and do not line up with the complete teachings and
revelations of God's Word. He told the congregation that he
was a millionaire and that he was working on becoming
(03:23):
a billionaire in order to demonstrate the power of God.
Then he added that we too could do the same.
He told us that he did not like Rolls Royce cars,
but he was going to have to get one for
the same reason. After showing the congregation his expensive ring,
he then told us that it did not mean much
to him and that he could easily toss it in
the trash. He told us that he had to wear
(03:46):
it in order to demonstrate the power of God in
his life. There were other things that raise suspicions in
my mind that this is a man that is so
full of himself and is using the office of a
pastor to satisfy his lust for power and self a
grand eye. For example, throughout his sermon, he was shown
on a large screen via camera to a church that
(04:07):
could not have been more than sixty in a room no.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Bigger than our house.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Just before he went up to preach, two men in
white gloves carried the pulpit and placed it in position
with the care one would expect to see if one
was moving the ark of the Covenant. The microphone, a
glass of water, and sermon notes were positioned with the
same exaggerated reverence. Equally troubling to me was the virtual
ananymmity hanging on every word he spoke, which elicited loud
(04:35):
responses sometimes asked for by him by the members there
was no doubt that the group saw this man as
a spokesman for God, who carried the authority that one
would expect to see when God did speak through a
prophet to his people. I did not want to argue
with Mandy over doctrines we have in the past. However,
I would like to ask her if she sees herself
(04:55):
better off now than just a year ago. She has
no car now and has not been a to continue
school for lack of money and transportation.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Where's the faith that is supposed to be working here.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
This was the first year Minnie and I did not
receive a gift from her on Mother's Day or Father's Day,
not that we had to have one, you understand. I
am confident that the ties and bonds of her family
will serve to create a struggle between us and the
so called family of God that she is involved with.
That people can become mesmerized by an individual and give
total allegiance and money to him or her is not
(05:28):
new that Christians can also fall into the same bind.
He can do no wrong because he is a man
of God. Obedience is harder for me to understand, though
I know it has been a common trait throughout Christian history.
I can't help and ask myself, what was it about
our parenting or her personality that created the seed bed
for her to find those doctrines acceptable and believable. Is
(05:51):
it the same fleshly desire to have all things nice,
big things that we were all born with, but through
the power of deception made reasonable and biblical. What Father
would not want to bless his children with such good things?
The same old, live satan man wants to create God
in his own image and be just like God. I
(06:12):
have never heard Mandy speak of the sovereignty of God
since she has attended the church. I can go on
and on. I love Mandy very much and miss her terribly.
We will continue to love her and pray for her.
Thank you for your support and prayers in His grace.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
JB.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Kaliah, thank you so much for reading that, and I've
read it a couple times and it gets me quite
emotional because you can feel the heaviness of a father
speaking to his sister, and so through the many conversations
that we have had, I'm so incredibly thankful to have
Mgdalia on this episode because I do know from our
(06:51):
conversations there are some parallels there, and so Mgdalia, thank
you for joining us on this episode.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
How are you good? Thank you for having me good?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Do you mind if we just start by telling everyone
a little bit about Nick, his early life and his
passion for dance and what led him to move from
Atlanta to New York and then Los Angeles.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Nick is my firstborn and his father was a baseball fanatic,
so naturally he started playing baseball probably when he was two,
and continued to play it through middle school into high
school at the varsity level. Somewhere between the end of
middle school and high school, he showed an interest in
(07:34):
dance and learned how to do all sorts of dances.
Unbeknownst to us, he would lock himself in his room
and we would hear all kinds of noises and we
knew something was going on, but he wouldn't tell us.
He said it was going to be a surprise. So
once he felt confident enough to come out and show us,
we were very amazed and we were like, Wow, that's
(07:57):
that's really talented. And he just continued to practice and
get better. And we are Catholic family. I want to
go back to that because it's very important that everyone
knows that Nick is a very spiritual person. Would go
to church together on Sundays, and somewhere around when he
had his confirmation, he began to go to meetings at
(08:21):
church to prepare for it and came home saying that
he was very inspired, he was mesmerized by the speaker,
and that it was something that really spoke to him
and that it was something that he would really like
to pursue, and had indicated to me that perhaps he
would want going to the priesthood, which was a surprise
(08:42):
because I had no expectation that he would come out
with that so young. I think he had just started
high school. Around that time, he became a peer minister
and was advising younger people on the church and the
confirmation process and what it all meant. And you know,
we supported it, but we were very insistent that he
(09:02):
finished his education and then decide what he wanted to
do next. He was actually studying for a business degree,
and we could tell that he wasn't happy doing that,
so I encouraged him to take dance classes, which made
him very happy. And then he discovered there was a
dance troupe in Atlanta that was very well known across
(09:24):
the world, and he started hanging out with them and
was just always a student learning from the better dancers
and just loved it and was with them for about
a couple of years and then decided that it was
time to move outside of the group and do something bigger.
(09:45):
And he had opportunity to do a movie as an
extra in New York, and we have family in New York,
so he had to move to be able to film
with them. Then, of course, other opportunities started coming along.
The audition to be part of the troop of the
Illusionists was there's a magic show that toured all across
the US and Canada, and whenever he had a day off,
(10:09):
he would go into a dance studio and give lessons
to young kids. And yeah, he absolutely loved what he
was doing. We knew he had found his true passion
in life. So he had always talked about going to
LA even when he was still in Atlanta. You know,
we were a little skittish about LA. We knew what
happens to people when they go to LA. Unfortunately, not
(10:32):
everybody makes it. It's a very difficult thing to get into.
But after about a year and a half in New York.
He was ready and he went without any plans, didn't
know where he was going to go, didn't know where
he's going to live. He happened to have a friend,
Matt Stefanina, who's very well known in the dance world.
And Matt said, I have a house, I got some
(10:54):
dancers that are moving in. Are you interested in being
part of that group? And that is when and it
all began because his roommate was James b. Dash and
they quickly became friends. And then all of a sudden,
he's doing Bible studies with him and telling me about
you know, because we had a great relationship. He used
(11:16):
to pick up the phone all the time. This is
what I'm doing. I'm so excited. Yeah, I was the
first one he would call, and just progress from there.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
After the break, we continue our conversation with mcdalia. This
is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with mcdalia.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Before we get into La and Reino's transition there, I
do want to kind of go back to the letter
that we read and get your initial reactions was there
anything that stood out to you while I was reading
the letter?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Oh? Absolutely. I immediately identified the narcissistic tendencies, so many
similarities between narcissism and high control groups. So I immediately
saw how special they made him feel, how holy they
treated him, and the belief that he was really sent
by God, and the holidays and birthdays that just came
(12:25):
and went without any kind of recognition. That was a
big heartbreak for us. We experienced that many times over. Yeah,
Mother's day's, Father's day's, birthdays just came and went as
if there was nothing happening.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I know you had mentioned that you guys spoke very often,
so when he made the transition from New York to
Los Angeles, you would still get phone calls from him
every day.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
You said there were Bible studies.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Did he talk about joining a new church or getting involved,
and what were your initial thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It was probably the end of twenty nineteen when he
called me and said I'm no longer Catholic, I'm a
born again Christian now. And I went, Okay, what does
that mean? Do you still go to church? Are you
still following the same teachings? And he said yes, and
(13:18):
he mentioned bete Ash and said that they would do
Bible studies at the house together and that eventually he
got invited to the pastor's home for dinner, which is
supposed to be something special, and he actually said that
he almost didn't get invited, which was like, Oh, how
(13:39):
does that work? And in retrospect, I was like, he
almost didn't get invited. That means that there were bells
going off that either he chose to ignore or that
were overcome by something that someone said to him or
did to him to make him part of the group.
(14:01):
There was probably a lot of peer pressure because he
was looking for a place to land and feel grounded,
and I guess the other dancers were probably feeling the
same way. And especially if you're a spiritual person, you
want to know that you've found your people and you
found your purpose. And I think they use that knowledge
(14:24):
of his spirituality against him and said this is the
way you need to be if you want to achieve
all the wonderful things that you want to achieve in
your life. And one of the things that I discovered
through my research is that most people who join cults
are idealists. They're looking to better the world. They're looking
(14:50):
to uplift people, and that's what Nick was all about.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
At what point did you start to notice next behavior
and communication with you changing, and how did the situation
with the Wilkins family, particularly Miranda first raise alarm bells
for you?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Well, I think the pandemic made things worse because it
isolated him and the other dancers together and they had
no recourse and no kind of way out to see
the bigger picture of what was happening to them. So
twenty twenty was a lot of these really glitzy videos
(15:33):
with you know, beautiful houses, beautiful clothing, and everyone looked
so happy and so content and so fulfilled, and it
made us think, oh, he's in a good place. Even
though the communications started to dwindle, and when we did
(15:54):
speak to him, it was, oh, I can't really talk
right now. I'm about to get on and film something.
I'm doing a gig. You know, he was never specific
about what he was doing. He couldn't talk about it.
Oh I signed an NDA, I can't talk about who
I'm doing things with, where I am or what I'm promoting.
(16:15):
Because he did some little commercials along the way too. Yeah,
and that progressed into from doing face times that went
away so we couldn't even see him. Then it was
just text, and then the time between those communications got
longer and longer and longer, from weeks to months, and
(16:36):
it was very painful. We were like, what's going on?
And my husband would say, I guess he's busy. I
guess you know, busy is a good thing, you know.
We always toward our voice to be hard workers, and
Nick was an extremely hard worker. And the beginning of
the next year, after many months of not hearing from him,
he called us and asked my husband for some information
(16:59):
into any man account that he had, kind of like
a joint account. We discussed it, you know, and I said,
you know, he's what twenty six now, you know, we
have to hand over the reins and let him do
what he needs to do with his money. It's his money.
So we did that, and almost immediately that account was
(17:21):
transferred and my husband got a notification from the bank
saying that it was close. We knew what was happening
because shortly after that was when the Wilkings called us
and said, Hey, this is happening with our daughter. What's
happening with your son? We know your son is part
of this group, and we were like, yeah, we were
(17:42):
experiencing the same thing, lack of communication. The money was
disappearing from their accounts. The same thing with Miranda, you know,
tens of thousands of dollars were being moved out of
her account. She had a joint account with her father,
and We're like, this is scary, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And I remember at the time when these were happening
with the bank accounts, I was in Chicina and I
had already had certain alarm bells going off, and I
remember looking through Breddit and just watching all of these
bloggers and YouTubers talk about and that was something that
really stood out to me, was hearing about the joint
accounts that were drained. And these are just you know,
people on Reddit that are concerned, and I've heard stories,
(18:22):
and I think that is one of the things that
rang bigger alarm bells in my head. It helped fuel
the fire of motivation for me to leave. So I
really appreciate all of the parents that shared their stories
and spoke out for their children because it did touch me.
It did reach me there when I'm already having thoughts
(18:43):
about am I supposed to be here is what we're
doing in here wrong. It really just helped put things
into perspective for me. So I can't thank you guys
enough for the tenacity that you've had as parents. How
from the outside looking in, did you see this impact
on Nick, particularly in regards to his confidence as a dancer.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well, I didn't see anything change for quite some time.
He was still hosting videos almost daily, probably by the
end of the year. Close to the early part of
the next year, which was twenty twenty two, I've noticed
there was less and less of him on the dance videos,
and I was like, what's going on. I don't get it.
(19:26):
He loves to dance. And when they started doing the
behind the scenes videos, I would catch him sitting with
Isaiah behind the camera and I'm going, what is happening.
I know he loves being behind the camera. I know
he loves doing editing and special effects and all those
kind of things. That was his thing even when he
(19:47):
was here in Atlanta. And I think I got information
from people that had come out of the church that
Robert was telling them that they weren't good dancers, that
he could dance better than the them, and he would
make fun of them during the services, and I eventually
found out that he specifically told Nick that he was
(20:07):
not a good dancer. But I think the real reason
was that Nick was not the big moneymaker and he
wanted to use him wherever he could find his strengths
other than dancing.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
For those that don't know, Nick is actually an incredible dancer.
So that's a bit shocking to me. But yes, to
your point, maybe he wasn't that big money maker for Robert, right.
But I think one of the things that was also
very concerning is after the documentary came out, Nick's account
went completely away, and so we had started to see
(20:42):
that he wasn't appearing in a lot of videos, and
then we'd see him in the background, and then after
the documentary came out, completely gone. And so one of
the things that we've been seeing a lot on social
media is where's Nick. It's almost this like hashtag of
where's Nick because he's just we're to be found and
people are speculating on their dancing with people with masks
(21:04):
on and they're like, it's Nick and it's not. But
there was a post recently that he was in the background.
He now has maybe a beard and a mustache. And
I just appreciate that you've always just been vigilant, Migdalia,
and you're just you speak out and you've never stopped
fighting for your son. And yeah, I think you mentioned
(21:26):
that Nick eventually encouraged to cut ties with his family
and that communication with him became increasingly difficult, which obviously
we've been seeing. But what was it like for you
as a mother seeing him become more distant and isolated
and see that his social media was gone.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
It was extremely devastating for me when we first realized
what was happening, it was unbelievable. I had no power
to reach my son. I had no recourse because as
(22:09):
an adult, law enforcement does not even recognize that he's
being manipulated, coerced, or controlled in any way. And the
fact that he was being told that he had to
die to himself, which means he had to bury everything
(22:31):
he knew and everyone he loved and forget it. And
that's what hurts me most of all, because Nick is
such a special soul, He has such a big heart,
and I don't want him to forget who he is,
(22:52):
who he was, and all the people who loved And
that's what Robert was telling all the day, that's just
to do, to just bury themselves, bury the things they'd loved,
I forget about their lives together. And I could do that.
I had to keep trying to reach out and reconnect
(23:16):
with my son no matter what. And that's the only
way I was able to see him. I got on
a plane with my husband and we showed up at
his house, and we showed up at the church, and
we knocked and we rang the doorbells, and we insisted
that we were going to see our son, even though
(23:38):
he never had time for us over the phone. I
was going to see him no matter what. And we
showed up at that church, and five minutes later he
called us as sod, where are you What are you doing?
And we said, we're here to see you. He said,
don't go to the church. You're not allowed to go
(23:59):
to the church. And we said, okay, so where do
you want to meet us? And he agreed to meet
us for lunch. And it was one of the most
awkward things you could imagine. A young man that you
raised for twenty five years and he could barely look
at us in the eye. There was no eye contact.
(24:21):
It was like a totally different person, and we just
kept trying to talk to him and find out what
he was doing, what his life was like, Is he
all right? And he just kept talking in circles. But
at least we saw him. We were able to touch
(24:41):
him and hold him and kiss him and tell him
we loved him. And that meant a lot to me,
because I don't want to ever forget that I'm here
and I'm going to keep fighting for him.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
When we returned the conclusion to our conversation with me, Dahlia,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with my Dahlia.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Have you been able to see Nick since the documentary
came out?
Speaker 4 (25:20):
And what was that like?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
If so, Yes, we were able to see him. We actually,
for the first time, had a planned visit. Total, we
have seen him three times in the last three years,
just once a year, and all three times have been
because we got on a flight and just showed up.
(25:42):
But the last time we told him we're coming, he
wanted us to come in July and we couldn't come
in July, and we pushed it to August, and he
agreed that he was going to meet with us. So
it was the first time he was really open to it,
and I was grateful because, you know, after the documentary
(26:04):
came out, he called us and lectured us on all
the downfall from the documentary, that people were following him,
trying to find out where he lived, sending him hate
on social media. He said that he almost had an
(26:27):
accident because someone was following him in a car and
he was trying to dodge them and go down on
familiar streets to avoid them catching up with him. I
don't know if any of that it's true, but he agreed,
and once we had that conversation and everyone calmed down,
(26:51):
we always seemed to come to a place where we're like, okay,
we're going to agree to disagree on some of this.
I let him vent and we apologize for whatever mishap
might have taken place after the documentary and him having
to delete all his social media because of it. That's
(27:11):
one of the reasons he said he had to do it.
But I don't believe I think it was Robert who
made him do it. I think Robert said, look, you
need to prove to me that You're loyal despite everything
that's come out, and this was an act of loyalty
for him to completely die to himself, to lose all
those years of hard work and videos and delete everything.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And that really stood out to me, having gone through
the experience of not only social media accounts, but having
to bury parts of myself. And there are some things
when I was in Chakina that I had gotten rid
of that were just so sentimental and irreplaceable.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
And to this.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Day it bothers me so much that those things that
I have had or gone forever because I thought, like
you said, I thought I was part of something bigger.
I felt like it was a bigger purpose. I really
wanted just to help people and bring people to the
Kingdom of God.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
So to come to the.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Place today where I realized that wasn't it. It feels
like you know, and I do know at the end
of the day, is it's just material things. But they
were sentimental and they are like the time passes and
those there's some things that I just won't be able
to get back from those experiences and or from that time,
and that has been one of the hardest things for
(28:33):
me to have to reconcile with with myself.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
And.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
You know, I appreciate you for your vulnerability because it
kind of it allows space for me as well to
grieve those things. And you know, so for you looking back,
what advice would you give to other families who might
be going through a similar situation with a loved one
in a high control group.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
You really need to do your research, need to talk
to experts. I was lucky enough to have a couple
of sessions with doctor Quincy Gideon, and she's a cult expert,
and I follow a lot of the cult experts online,
doctor Stephen Hassen, Rick Ross, There's a whole bunch of
(29:20):
cult experts on Instagram. They outline a lot of the
red flags that you need to watch out for when
you're joining a group, and talk about how important it
is to keep communication and make sure that your loved
one knows that they're loved and that you're there for
them and supporting them no matter what their choices are.
(29:42):
I know that Nick's spiritual journey is very important to him,
and one of the last things I said to him
on our last phone conversation was that I respect his
decision to follow God. I respect his decision to be honest,
a ritual journey for the rest of his life if
he needs to be, to go into the priesthood, if
(30:04):
that's what he wants to do. But I made it
very distinct that where he is now and the people
that he is with now are not the people he
should continue that journey with. And I want him to
be able to separate that because one of the things
I said to him over and over again, you can
do what you're doing anywhere on this planet. If you
(30:29):
want to give yourself to God and serve and do
good work, you can do that anywhere in the world.
You don't have to do it where you are. But
I think it's very important for people to recognize the
red flags and to understand to be kind and loving
and never lose hope. Continue the communication, continue sending pictures
(30:55):
and notes and texts and love letters and thinking of
thank you, and be prepared because when they come out
on the other side, they're going to need a lot
of support and a lot of love from the family,
and we're going to be here for them.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
We'd like to thank Mgdahalia for coming on the show
and sharing her story, her and wavering determination to reconnect
with her son and expose the harmful practices of Chiquina
Church highlights the immense challenges faced by the families caught
in the grip of high control groups. We'd also like
to thank JB. For his heartfelt letter regarding Amanda. It
was a powerful reflection of the deep devotion these parents
(31:42):
have in their efforts to reunite with their children.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
We truly wish them all the very best. We hope
this conversation gave you insight on how these high controlled
groups affect their loved ones. Be sure to follow us
for more thought provoking discussions, and, as always, thank you
for tuning in to Forgive Me For I Have Followed.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Give Me For I Have Followed is a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast network, hosted.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
By me Kalia Gray and me Jess Costivetto.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron
Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Our executive producers are Kaleia Gray, myself, Wilmar Balderama, Leo
Klem and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
And Halo Boy.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
See you next week, See you next week,
He agreed to meet us for lunch, and it was
one of the most awkward things you could imagine. A
young man that you raised for twenty five years and
he could barely look at us in the eye.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
jessicasiveto executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for the
Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series explored
the story of Robert Schin, the La based Chakaina Church
and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over two
decades ago before establishing seven M Films and is named
in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chaicina Church and
Seven M Films.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
In this episode, Mgdalia Riano opens up about the heartbreaking
journey of her son, Nick's involvement with Chakaina Church in
Seven M Films, detailing the trouble changes she witnessed in
him over the years. She shares how Nick's love for
dance led him to the church, but soon the group's
emotional and financial manipulation began to tear apart. His connection
(01:13):
with his family mcdalia also discusses her relentless efforts to
reconnect with her son, expose the church's harmful practices, and
navigate the frustrating legal barriers in her quest for justice.
Through her powerful personal story, mcdalia offers invaluable insight and
hope for other families struggling with dangers of high controlled groups.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
After we recently received a letter from one of our
past guests, Amanda, a letter from decades ago that parallels
the experiences many families are feeling currently, we felt it
was important to give the perspective of the families affected,
their heartbreak and hope. Now our conversation with mgdalia.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Welcome back to another episode of Forgive Me For I
have followed. Before we get into our interview with mcdhalia,
one of the things that kind of sparked this conversation
was Amanda, who we had on a previous episode text
Us and had said that her dad found this letter
that he wrote in two thousand and four, and that
(02:21):
letter was to Amanda's aunt. At that time, Amanda was
still in Chicaina, and so we thought we would start
this episode by reading that letter before we go into
the conversation with Mcdaalia.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
So the letter starts, Dear Sylvia, just want to take
a few minutes to thank you for your prayerful concern.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Over a Mandy.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Minnie and I have continued to pray for her every
Sunday morning. We pray and fast together. We are praying
that God will remove that pastor and disband that church.
We are set and to know, many people, mostly young,
are being robbed of their time, money, and relationships. While
I am more and more concerned with the ongoing distance
that has developed in our relationship with her, I am
(03:03):
confident that God is faithful. Though I have not studied
the faith movement thoroughly, what Minnie and I heard from
Mandy's pastor's own lips that Sunday morning we visited was
enough to convince me that his teachings are in air
and do not line up with the complete teachings and
revelations of God's Word. He told the congregation that he
was a millionaire and that he was working on becoming
(03:23):
a billionaire in order to demonstrate the power of God.
Then he added that we too could do the same.
He told us that he did not like Rolls Royce cars,
but he was going to have to get one for
the same reason. After showing the congregation his expensive ring,
he then told us that it did not mean much
to him and that he could easily toss it in
the trash. He told us that he had to wear
(03:46):
it in order to demonstrate the power of God in
his life. There were other things that raise suspicions in
my mind that this is a man that is so
full of himself and is using the office of a
pastor to satisfy his lust for power and self a
grand eye. For example, throughout his sermon, he was shown
on a large screen via camera to a church that
(04:07):
could not have been more than sixty in a room no.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Bigger than our house.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Just before he went up to preach, two men in
white gloves carried the pulpit and placed it in position
with the care one would expect to see if one
was moving the ark of the Covenant. The microphone, a
glass of water, and sermon notes were positioned with the
same exaggerated reverence. Equally troubling to me was the virtual
ananymmity hanging on every word he spoke, which elicited loud
(04:35):
responses sometimes asked for by him by the members there
was no doubt that the group saw this man as
a spokesman for God, who carried the authority that one
would expect to see when God did speak through a
prophet to his people. I did not want to argue
with Mandy over doctrines we have in the past. However,
I would like to ask her if she sees herself
(04:55):
better off now than just a year ago. She has
no car now and has not been a to continue
school for lack of money and transportation.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Where's the faith that is supposed to be working here.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
This was the first year Minnie and I did not
receive a gift from her on Mother's Day or Father's Day,
not that we had to have one, you understand. I
am confident that the ties and bonds of her family
will serve to create a struggle between us and the
so called family of God that she is involved with.
That people can become mesmerized by an individual and give
total allegiance and money to him or her is not
(05:28):
new that Christians can also fall into the same bind.
He can do no wrong because he is a man
of God. Obedience is harder for me to understand, though
I know it has been a common trait throughout Christian history.
I can't help and ask myself, what was it about
our parenting or her personality that created the seed bed
for her to find those doctrines acceptable and believable. Is
(05:51):
it the same fleshly desire to have all things nice,
big things that we were all born with, but through
the power of deception made reasonable and biblical. What Father
would not want to bless his children with such good things?
The same old, live satan man wants to create God
in his own image and be just like God. I
(06:12):
have never heard Mandy speak of the sovereignty of God
since she has attended the church. I can go on
and on. I love Mandy very much and miss her terribly.
We will continue to love her and pray for her.
Thank you for your support and prayers in His grace.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
JB.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Kaliah, thank you so much for reading that, and I've
read it a couple times and it gets me quite
emotional because you can feel the heaviness of a father
speaking to his sister, and so through the many conversations
that we have had, I'm so incredibly thankful to have
Mgdalia on this episode because I do know from our
(06:51):
conversations there are some parallels there, and so Mgdalia, thank
you for joining us on this episode.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
How are you good? Thank you for having me good?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Do you mind if we just start by telling everyone
a little bit about Nick, his early life and his
passion for dance and what led him to move from
Atlanta to New York and then Los Angeles.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Nick is my firstborn and his father was a baseball fanatic,
so naturally he started playing baseball probably when he was two,
and continued to play it through middle school into high
school at the varsity level. Somewhere between the end of
middle school and high school, he showed an interest in
(07:34):
dance and learned how to do all sorts of dances.
Unbeknownst to us, he would lock himself in his room
and we would hear all kinds of noises and we
knew something was going on, but he wouldn't tell us.
He said it was going to be a surprise. So
once he felt confident enough to come out and show us,
we were very amazed and we were like, Wow, that's
(07:57):
that's really talented. And he just continued to practice and
get better. And we are Catholic family. I want to
go back to that because it's very important that everyone
knows that Nick is a very spiritual person. Would go
to church together on Sundays, and somewhere around when he
had his confirmation, he began to go to meetings at
(08:21):
church to prepare for it and came home saying that
he was very inspired, he was mesmerized by the speaker,
and that it was something that really spoke to him
and that it was something that he would really like
to pursue, and had indicated to me that perhaps he
would want going to the priesthood, which was a surprise
(08:42):
because I had no expectation that he would come out
with that so young. I think he had just started
high school. Around that time, he became a peer minister
and was advising younger people on the church and the
confirmation process and what it all meant. And you know,
we supported it, but we were very insistent that he
(09:02):
finished his education and then decide what he wanted to
do next. He was actually studying for a business degree,
and we could tell that he wasn't happy doing that,
so I encouraged him to take dance classes, which made
him very happy. And then he discovered there was a
dance troupe in Atlanta that was very well known across
(09:24):
the world, and he started hanging out with them and
was just always a student learning from the better dancers
and just loved it and was with them for about
a couple of years and then decided that it was
time to move outside of the group and do something bigger.
(09:45):
And he had opportunity to do a movie as an
extra in New York, and we have family in New York,
so he had to move to be able to film
with them. Then, of course, other opportunities started coming along.
The audition to be part of the troop of the
Illusionists was there's a magic show that toured all across
the US and Canada, and whenever he had a day off,
(10:09):
he would go into a dance studio and give lessons
to young kids. And yeah, he absolutely loved what he
was doing. We knew he had found his true passion
in life. So he had always talked about going to
LA even when he was still in Atlanta. You know,
we were a little skittish about LA. We knew what
happens to people when they go to LA. Unfortunately, not
(10:32):
everybody makes it. It's a very difficult thing to get into.
But after about a year and a half in New York.
He was ready and he went without any plans, didn't
know where he was going to go, didn't know where
he's going to live. He happened to have a friend,
Matt Stefanina, who's very well known in the dance world.
And Matt said, I have a house, I got some
(10:54):
dancers that are moving in. Are you interested in being
part of that group? And that is when and it
all began because his roommate was James b. Dash and
they quickly became friends. And then all of a sudden,
he's doing Bible studies with him and telling me about
you know, because we had a great relationship. He used
(11:16):
to pick up the phone all the time. This is
what I'm doing. I'm so excited. Yeah, I was the
first one he would call, and just progress from there.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
After the break, we continue our conversation with mcdalia. This
is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with mcdalia.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Before we get into La and Reino's transition there, I
do want to kind of go back to the letter
that we read and get your initial reactions was there
anything that stood out to you while I was reading
the letter?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Oh? Absolutely. I immediately identified the narcissistic tendencies, so many
similarities between narcissism and high control groups. So I immediately
saw how special they made him feel, how holy they
treated him, and the belief that he was really sent
by God, and the holidays and birthdays that just came
(12:25):
and went without any kind of recognition. That was a
big heartbreak for us. We experienced that many times over. Yeah,
Mother's day's, Father's day's, birthdays just came and went as
if there was nothing happening.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I know you had mentioned that you guys spoke very often,
so when he made the transition from New York to
Los Angeles, you would still get phone calls from him
every day.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
You said there were Bible studies.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Did he talk about joining a new church or getting involved,
and what were your initial thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It was probably the end of twenty nineteen when he
called me and said I'm no longer Catholic, I'm a
born again Christian now. And I went, Okay, what does
that mean? Do you still go to church? Are you
still following the same teachings? And he said yes, and
(13:18):
he mentioned bete Ash and said that they would do
Bible studies at the house together and that eventually he
got invited to the pastor's home for dinner, which is
supposed to be something special, and he actually said that
he almost didn't get invited, which was like, Oh, how
(13:39):
does that work? And in retrospect, I was like, he
almost didn't get invited. That means that there were bells
going off that either he chose to ignore or that
were overcome by something that someone said to him or
did to him to make him part of the group.
(14:01):
There was probably a lot of peer pressure because he
was looking for a place to land and feel grounded,
and I guess the other dancers were probably feeling the
same way. And especially if you're a spiritual person, you
want to know that you've found your people and you
found your purpose. And I think they use that knowledge
(14:24):
of his spirituality against him and said this is the
way you need to be if you want to achieve
all the wonderful things that you want to achieve in
your life. And one of the things that I discovered
through my research is that most people who join cults
are idealists. They're looking to better the world. They're looking
(14:50):
to uplift people, and that's what Nick was all about.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
At what point did you start to notice next behavior
and communication with you changing, and how did the situation
with the Wilkins family, particularly Miranda first raise alarm bells
for you?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Well, I think the pandemic made things worse because it
isolated him and the other dancers together and they had
no recourse and no kind of way out to see
the bigger picture of what was happening to them. So
twenty twenty was a lot of these really glitzy videos
(15:33):
with you know, beautiful houses, beautiful clothing, and everyone looked
so happy and so content and so fulfilled, and it
made us think, oh, he's in a good place. Even
though the communications started to dwindle, and when we did
(15:54):
speak to him, it was, oh, I can't really talk
right now. I'm about to get on and film something.
I'm doing a gig. You know, he was never specific
about what he was doing. He couldn't talk about it.
Oh I signed an NDA, I can't talk about who
I'm doing things with, where I am or what I'm promoting.
(16:15):
Because he did some little commercials along the way too. Yeah,
and that progressed into from doing face times that went
away so we couldn't even see him. Then it was
just text, and then the time between those communications got
longer and longer and longer, from weeks to months, and
(16:36):
it was very painful. We were like, what's going on?
And my husband would say, I guess he's busy. I
guess you know, busy is a good thing, you know.
We always toward our voice to be hard workers, and
Nick was an extremely hard worker. And the beginning of
the next year, after many months of not hearing from him,
he called us and asked my husband for some information
(16:59):
into any man account that he had, kind of like
a joint account. We discussed it, you know, and I said,
you know, he's what twenty six now, you know, we
have to hand over the reins and let him do
what he needs to do with his money. It's his money.
So we did that, and almost immediately that account was
(17:21):
transferred and my husband got a notification from the bank
saying that it was close. We knew what was happening
because shortly after that was when the Wilkings called us
and said, Hey, this is happening with our daughter. What's
happening with your son? We know your son is part
of this group, and we were like, yeah, we were
(17:42):
experiencing the same thing, lack of communication. The money was
disappearing from their accounts. The same thing with Miranda, you know,
tens of thousands of dollars were being moved out of
her account. She had a joint account with her father,
and We're like, this is scary, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And I remember at the time when these were happening
with the bank accounts, I was in Chicina and I
had already had certain alarm bells going off, and I
remember looking through Breddit and just watching all of these
bloggers and YouTubers talk about and that was something that
really stood out to me, was hearing about the joint
accounts that were drained. And these are just you know,
people on Reddit that are concerned, and I've heard stories,
(18:22):
and I think that is one of the things that
rang bigger alarm bells in my head. It helped fuel
the fire of motivation for me to leave. So I
really appreciate all of the parents that shared their stories
and spoke out for their children because it did touch me.
It did reach me there when I'm already having thoughts
(18:43):
about am I supposed to be here is what we're
doing in here wrong. It really just helped put things
into perspective for me. So I can't thank you guys
enough for the tenacity that you've had as parents. How
from the outside looking in, did you see this impact
on Nick, particularly in regards to his confidence as a dancer.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well, I didn't see anything change for quite some time.
He was still hosting videos almost daily, probably by the
end of the year. Close to the early part of
the next year, which was twenty twenty two, I've noticed
there was less and less of him on the dance videos,
and I was like, what's going on. I don't get it.
(19:26):
He loves to dance. And when they started doing the
behind the scenes videos, I would catch him sitting with
Isaiah behind the camera and I'm going, what is happening.
I know he loves being behind the camera. I know
he loves doing editing and special effects and all those
kind of things. That was his thing even when he
(19:47):
was here in Atlanta. And I think I got information
from people that had come out of the church that
Robert was telling them that they weren't good dancers, that
he could dance better than the them, and he would
make fun of them during the services, and I eventually
found out that he specifically told Nick that he was
(20:07):
not a good dancer. But I think the real reason
was that Nick was not the big moneymaker and he
wanted to use him wherever he could find his strengths
other than dancing.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
For those that don't know, Nick is actually an incredible dancer.
So that's a bit shocking to me. But yes, to
your point, maybe he wasn't that big money maker for Robert, right.
But I think one of the things that was also
very concerning is after the documentary came out, Nick's account
went completely away, and so we had started to see
(20:42):
that he wasn't appearing in a lot of videos, and
then we'd see him in the background, and then after
the documentary came out, completely gone. And so one of
the things that we've been seeing a lot on social
media is where's Nick. It's almost this like hashtag of
where's Nick because he's just we're to be found and
people are speculating on their dancing with people with masks
(21:04):
on and they're like, it's Nick and it's not. But
there was a post recently that he was in the background.
He now has maybe a beard and a mustache. And
I just appreciate that you've always just been vigilant, Migdalia,
and you're just you speak out and you've never stopped
fighting for your son. And yeah, I think you mentioned
(21:26):
that Nick eventually encouraged to cut ties with his family
and that communication with him became increasingly difficult, which obviously
we've been seeing. But what was it like for you
as a mother seeing him become more distant and isolated
and see that his social media was gone.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
It was extremely devastating for me when we first realized
what was happening, it was unbelievable. I had no power
to reach my son. I had no recourse because as
(22:09):
an adult, law enforcement does not even recognize that he's
being manipulated, coerced, or controlled in any way. And the
fact that he was being told that he had to
die to himself, which means he had to bury everything
(22:31):
he knew and everyone he loved and forget it. And
that's what hurts me most of all, because Nick is
such a special soul, He has such a big heart,
and I don't want him to forget who he is,
(22:52):
who he was, and all the people who loved And
that's what Robert was telling all the day, that's just
to do, to just bury themselves, bury the things they'd loved,
I forget about their lives together. And I could do that.
I had to keep trying to reach out and reconnect
(23:16):
with my son no matter what. And that's the only
way I was able to see him. I got on
a plane with my husband and we showed up at
his house, and we showed up at the church, and
we knocked and we rang the doorbells, and we insisted
that we were going to see our son, even though
(23:38):
he never had time for us over the phone. I
was going to see him no matter what. And we
showed up at that church, and five minutes later he
called us as sod, where are you What are you doing?
And we said, we're here to see you. He said,
don't go to the church. You're not allowed to go
(23:59):
to the church. And we said, okay, so where do
you want to meet us? And he agreed to meet
us for lunch. And it was one of the most
awkward things you could imagine. A young man that you
raised for twenty five years and he could barely look
at us in the eye. There was no eye contact.
(24:21):
It was like a totally different person, and we just
kept trying to talk to him and find out what
he was doing, what his life was like, Is he
all right? And he just kept talking in circles. But
at least we saw him. We were able to touch
(24:41):
him and hold him and kiss him and tell him
we loved him. And that meant a lot to me,
because I don't want to ever forget that I'm here
and I'm going to keep fighting for him.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
When we returned the conclusion to our conversation with me, Dahlia,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with my Dahlia.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Have you been able to see Nick since the documentary
came out?
Speaker 4 (25:20):
And what was that like?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
If so, Yes, we were able to see him. We actually,
for the first time, had a planned visit. Total, we
have seen him three times in the last three years,
just once a year, and all three times have been
because we got on a flight and just showed up.
(25:42):
But the last time we told him we're coming, he
wanted us to come in July and we couldn't come
in July, and we pushed it to August, and he
agreed that he was going to meet with us. So
it was the first time he was really open to it,
and I was grateful because, you know, after the documentary
(26:04):
came out, he called us and lectured us on all
the downfall from the documentary, that people were following him,
trying to find out where he lived, sending him hate
on social media. He said that he almost had an
(26:27):
accident because someone was following him in a car and
he was trying to dodge them and go down on
familiar streets to avoid them catching up with him. I
don't know if any of that it's true, but he agreed,
and once we had that conversation and everyone calmed down,
(26:51):
we always seemed to come to a place where we're like, okay,
we're going to agree to disagree on some of this.
I let him vent and we apologize for whatever mishap
might have taken place after the documentary and him having
to delete all his social media because of it. That's
(27:11):
one of the reasons he said he had to do it.
But I don't believe I think it was Robert who
made him do it. I think Robert said, look, you
need to prove to me that You're loyal despite everything
that's come out, and this was an act of loyalty
for him to completely die to himself, to lose all
those years of hard work and videos and delete everything.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And that really stood out to me, having gone through
the experience of not only social media accounts, but having
to bury parts of myself. And there are some things
when I was in Chakina that I had gotten rid
of that were just so sentimental and irreplaceable.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
And to this.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Day it bothers me so much that those things that
I have had or gone forever because I thought, like
you said, I thought I was part of something bigger.
I felt like it was a bigger purpose. I really
wanted just to help people and bring people to the
Kingdom of God.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
So to come to the.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Place today where I realized that wasn't it. It feels
like you know, and I do know at the end
of the day, is it's just material things. But they
were sentimental and they are like the time passes and
those there's some things that I just won't be able
to get back from those experiences and or from that time,
and that has been one of the hardest things for
(28:33):
me to have to reconcile with with myself.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
And.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
You know, I appreciate you for your vulnerability because it
kind of it allows space for me as well to
grieve those things. And you know, so for you looking back,
what advice would you give to other families who might
be going through a similar situation with a loved one
in a high control group.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
You really need to do your research, need to talk
to experts. I was lucky enough to have a couple
of sessions with doctor Quincy Gideon, and she's a cult expert,
and I follow a lot of the cult experts online,
doctor Stephen Hassen, Rick Ross, There's a whole bunch of
(29:20):
cult experts on Instagram. They outline a lot of the
red flags that you need to watch out for when
you're joining a group, and talk about how important it
is to keep communication and make sure that your loved
one knows that they're loved and that you're there for
them and supporting them no matter what their choices are.
(29:42):
I know that Nick's spiritual journey is very important to him,
and one of the last things I said to him
on our last phone conversation was that I respect his
decision to follow God. I respect his decision to be honest,
a ritual journey for the rest of his life if
he needs to be, to go into the priesthood, if
(30:04):
that's what he wants to do. But I made it
very distinct that where he is now and the people
that he is with now are not the people he
should continue that journey with. And I want him to
be able to separate that because one of the things
I said to him over and over again, you can
do what you're doing anywhere on this planet. If you
(30:29):
want to give yourself to God and serve and do
good work, you can do that anywhere in the world.
You don't have to do it where you are. But
I think it's very important for people to recognize the
red flags and to understand to be kind and loving
and never lose hope. Continue the communication, continue sending pictures
(30:55):
and notes and texts and love letters and thinking of
thank you, and be prepared because when they come out
on the other side, they're going to need a lot
of support and a lot of love from the family,
and we're going to be here for them.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
We'd like to thank Mgdahalia for coming on the show
and sharing her story, her and wavering determination to reconnect
with her son and expose the harmful practices of Chiquina
Church highlights the immense challenges faced by the families caught
in the grip of high control groups. We'd also like
to thank JB. For his heartfelt letter regarding Amanda. It
was a powerful reflection of the deep devotion these parents
(31:42):
have in their efforts to reunite with their children.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
We truly wish them all the very best. We hope
this conversation gave you insight on how these high controlled
groups affect their loved ones. Be sure to follow us
for more thought provoking discussions, and, as always, thank you
for tuning in to Forgive Me For I Have Followed.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Give Me For I Have Followed is a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast network, hosted.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
By me Kalia Gray and me Jess Costivetto.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron
Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Our executive producers are Kaleia Gray, myself, Wilmar Balderama, Leo
Klem and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
And Halo Boy.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
See you next week, See you next week,
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com