Darren Hayes (Savage Garden)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
This is Frosted Tips with Lance Bass, an iHeartRadio podcast. Hello,
my little Peanuts, it's me your host, Lance Bass. This
is Frosted Tips with me Lance Bass and my co host,
my lovely husband, Turkey Turkychin.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hello. I like that. Yeah, it's an.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
It's excited. We have Darren Hayes On's day. I know
loved me some Savage Garden.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
I was a huge fan of Savage Garden.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
I remember when we first started out, you know, with
the group. It's like ninety six when we went over
to Germany, they were just coming out also, and so
we would kind of run into them a good bit
and just love them.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
So it's such a great group.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Oh, you'll have a nice ketch up.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, I mean, I see, I don't think I've probably
not seen him in twenty years.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Well, yeah, so we have a lot to catch up
on a lot.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
And speaking of catching up on, we have to catch
up on on my New York trip. I know, guys,
all right, so thank god we can finally talk about it.
As you know by now, we have a new song
coming out on the twenty ninth called Better Place.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
It is far a movie that we.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Cannot discuss, but I think all of you know, because
we are still in a strike right now, and I
think the strike's going to go for a very very
long time.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
So the sad news is we probably won't ever be able.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
To promote this movie. But the en Sync fans are
so freaking awesome that.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
I don't even think.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
I don't think we need to promote it because you
guys have just been so excited about this and made
it definitely go viral.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
So I think we have the best fans in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
I mean, I have to agree.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
Well, I think you should talk a little about the VMA's.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well okay, so yeah, So we just went and presented
in the hopes that Taylor Swift would win because that,
I mean, I felt like she was going.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
To sweep the whole thing, so I can't prepare it.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
I'm like, okay, if she wins, I had these bracelets,
I have to have to give a friendship brace No,
it's like the thing to do, and it's the ultimate
swifty move to give her an actual friendship bracelet.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
So you guys are like, officially BFx.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, yeah, we're pretty much Wow. No, it was it
was a really fun night.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
I mean, I didn't know what to expect, but I
definitely did not expect the aftermath of that.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
But yeah, I mean there's really not much I can
like say, because.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
I know you didn't you just leave right after you.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, I mean this is definitely a different VMA's because
you know, usually you're there for the whole show.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
It's it's different now.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
I feel like back in my day, you know, you went,
even if you weren't nominated, you went.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
You know, the whole industry came.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
It was it was like the place to be seen.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Now it's kind of like the only people that go
are the ones that probably going to win, and so
it just feels a little more contrived.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
I do like how performance heavy it's gotten.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah that's good.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
So yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Unfortunately we yeah we stayed for thirty minutes. We were
the first ones there. But yeah, no, I mean it
was it was awesome. It was great, you know to
be on that stage with those guys. You know, we
even did, you know, photo shoot the next day. So yeah,
so thanks guys for like, yeah, supporting us so much
during all of this. You know, at least we are

(03:29):
going to have new music very soon and then yeah,
we'll see where it goes from there. You know, lots
of talk, no solid plans just yet, because we know
we're just gonna have to.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Pivot a lot. But but yeah, things are looking really nice.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
I love it for the future me too.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
All right, well, you know what I'm excited for Our guests,
Our guest Darren Hayes.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Yes, yes, we have a lot to catch up on.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
So when we come back, we're gonna have one and
only front man up Savage Garden.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
Darren Hayes.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Darren Stanley Hayes is an Australian singer, songwriter, music producer
and composer. He was the frontman and singer of the
pop duo Savage Garden. Their ninety seven album, Savage Garden
peaked at number one in Australia, number two in the UK,
number three in the United States one two three. It
spawned the singles I Want You to the Moon and
Back and in Australian and US number one, Truly, Madly

(04:34):
Deeply Savage Garden part of Ways in two thousand and one.
Hayes released his first solo album, Spin in two thousand
and two, which sold two million copies worldwide, debuted at
number two in the UK, number three in Australia, and
after a decade long hiatus, Hayes returned in twenty twenty
two with his fifth studio album, Homosexual which I cannot
wait to talk about, which was released in October. Darren,

(04:57):
welcome to the show.

Speaker 5 (04:59):
Nice. Nice to finally do it. I know I was.
I was ill actually the first time you invited me,
so thanks for being psichond of course, but I'm here.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
We will always hold a spot for you, Darren always.
We were just talking before we started the show. It's
been since the nineties. I think we've actually seen each
other face to face. That was Top of the Pops
back in England. Yeah, which I don't even think there
is a Top of the Pops anymore. Did that finally
go away? Yeah? For people that don't understand Top of
the Pops, it was the biggest music show in England

(05:29):
from the fifties till it ended up just a few
years ago.

Speaker 5 (05:33):
And the way attended it was really sad too.

Speaker 6 (05:36):
It happened. I don't know how did it that well?

Speaker 5 (05:37):
It went from like biggest show in the world, well
in Europe, and you know when the music industry obviously
was really successful and there was lots of money, and
there was lots of budgets for music videos and things
to the music industry just crashing because of no one
knew what to do about. I think it was naps,
oh yeah, And I just remember it went from one

(06:00):
day to having like all these SUVs and budgets for
styling and clothing and like let's turn this set into
like a space planet, to the next week it was like, yeah,
your band has to get the tube, which for Americans
is the train. Your band has to get the tube there,
and we have no budget for styling. Like it was
just just sear.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
I all ever get because it was the first time
that we had to lip sync, because on that show
back of My Day, they would you were forced to
lips on it. There was no live anything. And I
remember we were so because as a boy band, of
course everyone's like they lip sync, and we were so
dead set against like we can not do this, we
can't do this. We're like, well, it's top of the pops,
you kind of have to do this.

Speaker 5 (06:41):
That must have been really offensive to you guys.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, I mean it was. It sucked, but we kind
of we understood. We're like, okay, well at Europe, I
guess this is what they do over here. Yeah, and
then the couple of times that we did it, because
you know, we started in Germany and the first couple
of television shows that they're like, well everyone lipsticks, We're like, well, no,
we're not doing that, and then they would allow us
to sing live. Now we understand why everyone lives stinks,
because no one knows how to do live vocals on

(07:06):
any of these.

Speaker 5 (07:08):
And on that show in particular, what happened was then
sort of grunge and nineties and I blame Natalie and
bergli Are. Actually it's always it's her fault. Her record
came out and everything in England was like Oasis or
Natalie and Burlei. Everyone was wearing just camo outfits and
everything was like not pop right, and certainly Top of

(07:32):
the Pops was like, you have to sing live, So
people who weren't talented were dying, so lots of careers
were They went up in flames for the two weeks
when Top of the Pops went sing live.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
What I did love about that show is you didn't
even know what the charts were until you watch the show.
Like that was you didn't get a little preview of like, oh,
Billboard came out yesterday, your number two? No, you watch
the show to see what number you were?

Speaker 4 (07:57):
What was like back in the TRL days as well? Yeah,
I mean you know, it wasn't the exact sorts, but
it was the shorts.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
For the basically it was it meant more to number
one Onioar.

Speaker 5 (08:09):
Can we spell the tea a little bit? On the
fact that I think it's pretty obvious now that we're
both gay and I are we doing some breaking news
right now?

Speaker 6 (08:20):
Are you gaying this news to me?

Speaker 5 (08:23):
It took me a long time to work that out,
like it really And I've seen and read a lot
of your interviews and they've always identify a lot with
your journey and everything, especially with the way the band
related to you. I had similar issues just internally with
the record label as well. I had this added layer
of shame where I absolutely hated myself and it wasn't

(08:45):
even sure if I was gay, so I went around
telling everybody I'm bisexual, that's thing. But I remember being
backstage at Top of the Pops and I had no
idea that we had that in common, and you were
being really cool, and I think you asked if, like
I wanted to hang out. And first of all, I'm
terrible with famous people, right, So you were instantly so

(09:06):
much more famous than me. Anyone I meet is always
more famous than me, right, So you were just like, hey,
we're going to go to a club because you know,
you're the lowest voice in the group.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
You're going to go to the club tonight.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
That sounds crazy. And I was just like, no, thanks,
I don't know what.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, and then I stole your girl, Anna Maria, who.

Speaker 5 (09:32):
You hung out with, Adam Marilla Spina.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
That was my girl. I mean, I loved me and
you guys. And then she would you know, she would
definitely go to the bars with us out. Yeah, how
is she doing? I haven't told her in a while.

Speaker 5 (09:45):
You know what, She's great. We're talking about backing vocalists
who used to work with me. Anna Marilla Spina, who
really sounded like Celean dionn oh.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yes, incredible.

Speaker 5 (09:55):
She's testament to the fact that sometimes in our business,
it does not matter how talented you are. Sometimes it's
just chance.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
We see that with the voice, you know, it's you know,
the voice has the most talented singers song or singer
songwriters in the world that have had record deals before
that are writing top songs that are producing the butt
and none of them can pop.

Speaker 6 (10:15):
It's it is.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
It's insane how how many talented people are out there.

Speaker 5 (10:19):
I think you just need a god shaped hole of
insecurity inside you.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
And yeah, I just.

Speaker 5 (10:26):
Needed the applause.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Well, going back to uh, you know when you started
and in holding that secret, because you know we do
relate on that, I do feel that it stifled your
creativity and your music at all.

Speaker 5 (10:44):
This is going to sound like a sort of a
a very convoluted answer. I'll try to make it short.
It wasn't really a secret for me. I really did
struggle with my sexuality. I was married to a woman,
so that was a secret it I was trying to hide.
I was man. I was trying to protect my private

(11:07):
life from fame. So I wanted to have these two personas.
I wanted to have a career, very long career that
was as famous as Michael Jackson. And yet I foolishly
thought I could also have this private life and probably
should have known. I asked, you know, my wife to

(11:29):
marry me that because we bonded over hair color and
just reference. Hers was aubig Yeah, fabulous that we were
we Will and Grace before the TV show existed. You know,
we were best best friends, and I think she kept
me innocent and she kept me in this kind of

(11:52):
place where I wasn't ready to accept who I was.
And no, one day I'll talk about it. I'm writing
a book now about next year I get to talk
about this. I grew up in a culture where there
was just so much internalized shame. It wasn't even possible
for me to even think that. I didn't think I
knew any gay people, didn't even think Lance was gay.

(12:13):
My worldview was so tiny, so that when I was
traveling the world and we meet other artists, we realized
that just like race, just like gender, sexuality is such
a spectrum, and that I struggled finding that little place
for me. That when I eventually did come out, I
told everyone. I told the president of the label, who

(12:36):
was a very scary man, and he had virtually destroyed
George Michael's career for coming out. Really, and you know
what happened to me was all of a sudden, everyone
started kissing my cheek, and everyone started telling me like
treating me like I was a woman, and started this

(12:57):
process that I think is a sort of a version
of misogyny that happens to gay men in our business.
We become these harmless, non sexual, non threatening this is
the only way we know how to market. And it
was as though that was sort of the beginning of
the end of my career. It was the It was

(13:18):
the second Savage Garden record affirmation. Didn't matter that the
band was splitting up. I had come out and everyone
at the label was dealing with this internal fallout, which
was Ricky Martin. And listen some of the conversations and
the things that I heard about Ricky Martin, about the
people that supposedly loved him, would horrify you. It was horrific.

(13:41):
And so I was watching that stuff just thinking, if
this is how you speak about someone when they're not
in the room, and you're letting me hear this, what
are you going to do to my solo career? What
are you going to do? Well? I found out they
buried me, you know, So that was the struggle for me.
It wasn't you know, I was ready, Like I started
using the word him and he in my songs. My

(14:04):
first single, Insatiable, I want to taste every drop. I mean,
come on, yeah, I'm talking about you know what I'm
talking about.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Wait listen.

Speaker 6 (14:17):
What orange I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (14:19):
Turn the lights down low, take it off, let me
show my love you insatiable. And I can't remember the
rest of my lyrics because I'm a fifty one year
old game man, But essentially, all.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, it's weird because I never really get to talk
about that side of the career because yes, when you know,
everyone assumed I was straight when I was a teenager
and in this group, and then you know, I want
a big band in the world. So I did get
to hear what everyone said about gay people without them
knowing that I'm gay. So and that definitely keeps you

(14:52):
more in the closet because you're like crop like, I mean,
they they hate they will hate me. They will absolutely
hate me if I ever tell them that I'm gay.
So you just you dig back deeper and deeper every
time that you hear the joke. Er, especially the music
industry is still so homophobic. I mean, I know film industry,
you know, has gotten better and all that, but something

(15:13):
about the record industry is just so archaic with their
thoughts on sexuality.

Speaker 5 (15:20):
Because I'm so sort of outside of the box in
that regard. Like, honestly, the commercial success that I was
lucky enough to participate in, it's a blessing to me.
Like I you know, when I first started off, you know, yes,
I did want to be famous, and I was trying
to fix something in me that was deeply proficient, you know,

(15:41):
and like every you know, like if you talk to Madonna,
you know, Madonna was missing a mother and so she
needed the whole world to mock with her. Right My
thing was a father issue, you know. But as soon
as I received the attention, I got over that very quickly,
and I'm grateful for that. And I knew that it

(16:04):
wasn't going to last, that the fame wasn't going to last,
but me being a singer, me being an artist, that
was the thing that I really wanted to hold on
to it and retain. So I'm grateful that I'm not cynical.
I've never been someone that's like I'd have been a contenduct,
you know, like I've always just continued on. I make
my strange, weird records. Some of them work, some of

(16:25):
them don't. But the whole gay experience, I can't lie
and say that that wasn't like an X against me
because our generation, we couldn't just arrive and looking even
little naz X. When I think about Little Nasax, I mean,

(16:46):
if you look at his and so if you look
at how difficult that is to be an African American
and be queer. I went and saw Beyonce recently and
that a lot of people don't realize how inspired she
was by her uncle who was gay, and that is
to bring like club culture and quick culture to that audience.
It's it moves me like it really really because I

(17:09):
know how brave that is and how hard it is,
and so many other cultures that aren't. Just you know,
I have so much privilege being a straight white guy.
I can pass anywhere I want, I can turn my
sex on or off, and so many other cultures you
just can't do that. Well's smallest violent for me, but
still it's odd.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:30):
But and but that experience, I mean, it was on
a much larger scale. It's kind of it's the same
experience most gay people go through just in their own life.
You know that it's the same. It's the same thing yours.
Both of you were just on a much massive, more scale.
And a business that literally penalized you for.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Doing exactly And for me, you know, I always felt
like I was lucky that I started my career so
early and found fame as a teenager because then and
as soon as I was, you know, finishing up puberty
and everyone started to date people, that's when I got
it in sync. And because of that, I was able to
hide it a lot longer because I had so many

(18:07):
great excuses of not to date a girl or to
you know, you could just kind of mix up of like, oh, yeah,
last night in London, I totally about a girl and
we took her back to the hotel and yeah, you know,
it's no one would know, and there was no cell
phones or anything like that, so you could easily create
the narrative that you wanted to easily.

Speaker 5 (18:25):
I couldn't imagine growing up being a young person with
fame today and the scrutiny of every moment, you know,
and I, you know, there was a lot of the
I really cherish the fact that I got to come
out really in between albums. I lived in San Francisco,
and I laugh about this. I spent so many years

(18:47):
like looking across the foggy Bay like going, is he
out there? So I go out bars and I'm doing
and that, like I'm such a romantic.

Speaker 6 (18:57):
You know.

Speaker 5 (18:58):
My poor mother came to this me once from Australia
and this one night I got a number and I
made the mistake of telling my mother I got a
phone number. I was like, Ma, I got a phone number, MA,
And she was like, did he call? It was like
three am. No. No. Then every for the next two
weeks she'd go, did he call? And I go, oh, ma,

(19:22):
but like two weeks I got ghosted. We didn't know
what that was back then. But you know, you know what, Ma,
he didn't call every day that you ask me if
he calls. It feels terrible inside because he's never gonna call. Never,
because I'm idiots monster.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Okay, It's like it's like he's a ghost. I created
this thing you called ghosting. Ghost Yeah, invented the word ghosted, y'all.

Speaker 6 (19:49):
Wow, yeah, you heard it here.

Speaker 5 (19:50):
First love, did you make him up?

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Was your whole family?

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Did they accept you immediately when you came your friends
and family?

Speaker 5 (20:02):
Hmmm mmm?

Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (20:06):
But I mean, look, my mother from the second I
was born accepted me. I was the youngest of three kids,
and I was unique. I was you know, she made
me a wonder woman costume. She called it a wonder
man costume because but she used I don't know what

(20:26):
we call him in the US, but she used this
fabric paint to paint stars on my blue shorts instead
of a skirt. She made a tank top like this actually,
and it had a yellow falcon on it. And we'd
use toilet roll spray paint of gold, you know, very

(20:46):
very like. She's very gentle, and yet when I came out,
she was like, I had no idea. I'm like, I
was blow drying your frosted hair. She had, like, I
was blow drying your hair. There're outfits. I was in
the dressing rooms with you. You know, acis just being like,
m maybe the lavender.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
I mean, I didn't know that was me, you know.
I mean I asked my mom to I'm like, did
you have any clue? Because I mean I look back
and I see them like, well, I mean, come on,
I wanted my little pony at you know, six years old,
that kind of stuff. And my Mom's like, well, yeah,
looking back, I now see things, but like I just
I never it just never dawned on me in the
moment that you could have been gay. But it's so

(21:29):
funny how they'll just completely just not see that part
of you.

Speaker 5 (21:33):
Some of us are really lucky to have. And I
mean some of us because I so so many more
of my friends had really difficult relationships with their parents. Yeah,
but those mother son relationships I think are so wonderful.
You know, where you're there's this connection, like I call it,
like an invisible tether that I have to my mother.

(21:56):
I always didn't. I think it's because subconsciously. And the
books on this book called the Velvet Rage, it's like I.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Just heard about that. Oh yeah, oh no, that's Tad's
new tour is called Velvet Rage.

Speaker 6 (22:11):
Still in that. No, The Velvet Reads is a very
famous book.

Speaker 5 (22:14):
Yeah, it's a really important text that gay men should
read because it is about this thing that happened to
a certain generation where we were. We were othered even
by our parents. Our parents knew there was something wrong
with us, and they overcompensated.

Speaker 6 (22:28):
So some they.

Speaker 5 (22:31):
Protected us and some didn't know consciously, but they knew
there's something different about this one, and they start to
sever a tie between us and that anxiety that some
of us felt between our fathers was really a child
knowing their father is leaving us and wanted to hold

(22:54):
on and just it's a very very complicated thing because
you know, we are different. We were different, and our
parents didn't really relate to that.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, no, normally did we feel different. But we also
weren't given permission to be ourselves, you know, until someone,
you know, basically that gives you permission to be you know,
like you can be gay. Oh I can be gay.
Oh crap, I didn't. I didn't know that, And you're
just suppressing everything your whole entire life until you realize that,
Oh wait, I can't do this and you and you'll
let me do that. That's great.

Speaker 5 (23:26):
I feel like we can't really answer that question. That's
because we were fam I think being famous lets you
by that point. You know, I was absolutely providing for
my family. I was as you might relate, you know,
I was someone that was seen as a golden child,
not in any accusatory way in my family. I adore
my family. And I think if you're famous and you

(23:46):
don't buy a house for your family, if you can
afford to do that, you're probably a crappy person because
of you being famous and getting a lot of money
is a bit like winning lottery and it's a moral
So yes, I did those things. So how could the
people that love me then look at me and think
of me as a bad person? Because I was also

(24:08):
being a really generous person and a kind person in
a bubble? Were I just a preschool teacher like I
was supposed to be, But they have been as accepting.
I don't know my core, yes, but the rest of
my community, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, it's true, it's interesting, and yeah, like you said,
we'll never know. Well, I can't wait to read that
book though, because I just love the psychology behind any
of that. So yeah, I think it's going to obviously
relate to me.

Speaker 4 (24:33):
And along those lines, I've always said, because you know,
lances from Mississippi, which you know, it's great, it's a
you know, you know, there's a lot of good things
about Missiby, but there's a lot of bad things, and
we've always been treated amazingly whenever we go back. But
I always have said, like, people care more that you're
famous than that you're gay, So they overlook the gay

(24:56):
stuff because they're like, oh, my god, it's celebrity, so
they can pushed all that aside. If you were just
the postman coming by with a rainbow flag, they may
not be so kind to you, right if you've seen.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Them, that's true.

Speaker 5 (25:07):
Yeah, that's just privileged. I think it's always important to
check that, you know. I think, like I said before,
just passing, you know, I can choose whether I come
out or not every single day. You know, I'm not
someone that gets recognized in the streets, so I don't
really have the celebrity thing, but I definitely have the

(25:27):
ability to. And if you think about it, it's like
every time you buy a bunch of flowers, people will
make an assumption.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Someone will you.

Speaker 5 (25:36):
I've had people say who's the lucky girl?

Speaker 6 (25:39):
Oh yeah all the time.

Speaker 4 (25:39):
Or when I get a haircut, if I go to
a new place and they see a ring on my finger,
they're like, oh, like, who's when I'm married to your wife,
and it's always you have to come out over and
over and over again.

Speaker 5 (25:51):
But it's making that decision. Who do you reveal this exactly?

Speaker 4 (25:55):
And sometimes I just go along with it and pretend
I'm married to a wife because I don't feel comfortable
with the person that I'm they don't know, like in
a sense, they might not be so kind, and I
don't want to have to go through that, so I
just go along with it.

Speaker 6 (26:05):
And it's something you still do even when we're comfortable.

Speaker 5 (26:08):
Yeah, there are certain places in the world, and I
think I try to have compassion for that because it's
a little bit like my my analogy. When I first
moved to New York. I tell people it's like, oh
my god, it's so embarrassing. I went from Brisbane, Australia
to New York and I just decided that New york

(26:30):
Is weren't very friendly. So I would take offense to that.
So I'd go into a badega or something and I'd
pay and then there'd be nothing said, and I'd go,
you're for about And then my friend mRNA Soarez, she
love this name check. He was just like, you know,

(26:55):
you can't change the city. Yeah, Like you're gonna exhaust
yourself and you're just making yourself miserable. And it's one
of those things, you know, where sometimes you have to
just look at your environment. And I might get some
criticism for saying this, but you know, I have compassion.
I think if someone's not if there an acceptance of

(27:20):
me comes from a place that's conservative or religious, or
from a place that doesn't come from hatred, doesn't come
from bigotry, it comes from say, what I would call
legentle ignorance, which is a lack of exposure. I have compassion.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
You don't know what you don't know?

Speaker 5 (27:39):
Yeah, And I'm not one of those people that I
just want to walk in and just like burst a
balloon with rainbow colors and be.

Speaker 6 (27:45):
Like yeah me, you know, like I'm just.

Speaker 5 (27:50):
I don't id that confrontation. I would rather just be
someone who is in their life that they happen to
be like, are you gay? And that blows the moment, yeah, events,
and that makes them have to rethink all of their.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
You know, yeah, yeah, that's what I always call it.
Also gay. You know, like I'm also gay. You know,
it's just like that's not what I lead with, but
it's like, yes, but I'm also gay. It's one part
of also blonde, and I'm also a way guy, and
I'm also a musician. It's just just one of my
also's now.

Speaker 5 (28:26):
But we haven't talking about it as well, like us, Yeah,
what cost talking about being gay.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, I love that, especially when I came out my friends,
uh and even like the instinct guys and everyone you know,
they I think they overcompensate a little bit of wanting
to accept you and make you try to feel comfortable.
So then but then they go into the stereotypical things.
There's always joking with you on the most stereotypical gay things.
I'm like, well, no, I don't like that, and know

(28:54):
that's not how I am, but sure, let's make a
joke about it.

Speaker 6 (28:57):
I know, like, oh, we're getting hot talks for lungs. Yeah,
support you. It was like, okay, calm down, I'm allowed.

Speaker 5 (29:04):
To say this because my mom cracks up. But when
I first came out, my mom would just be she'd
be like reading a magazine, she go outon John's genius.
Isn't he He's good? Isn't he music?

Speaker 6 (29:23):
Good music?

Speaker 5 (29:24):
I had to normalize and fine gay people in culture
that she was okay with it, which like I can
be the only gay only again in your life. Mom.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
All right, So we've been doing a deep dive with
our guests starting from the very beginning. Now, you were
born Were you born in Brisbane?

Speaker 5 (29:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Okay, so you're born in Brisbane? What was What was
it like being born there? What was school like for you?
Did you always know that you wanted to go on
to music, even at an early age.

Speaker 5 (29:58):
Yes, So being there, I lovingly say this, I really
thought it was just an accident of God. I thought,
I mean, look, you probably can't see I'm so pale
and a nation of surfers and you know, an indigenous
land mass that was stolen. I will acknowledge that nation

(30:21):
is sort of like an African terrain because it is
beautifully indigenous and it's very rough, like a climate to
live in.

Speaker 6 (30:29):
And I was this.

Speaker 5 (30:30):
Delicate, sort of irish blonde, sort of blue eyed dandelion
that hated this arm still does and I would just
be like, God, why did you curse me with this weather?
Number one? And I used to think that the world
was like a little movie about me and that I

(30:51):
don't know, I just always thought that I would be famous.
But maybe it's a trauma response because we can laugh
about this. Don't worry. I'm cool about it. But I
had a very traumatic childhood. It's extremely violent, so growing
up in the shining, but it activated my imagination. So
from a very very young age, I really did believe

(31:12):
in Star Wars mythology. I believed that there was an
adventure for me somewhere else. So by the time that
music came, you know, listening to Madonna, listening to Michael Jackson.
The moment that I decided to become a pop star
was in nineteen eighty seven. He came to my hometown.
He was supposed to perform at a stadium, but my country,

(31:37):
it was the only country in the entire world tour.
He was at the most famous star in the whole world.
He couldn't really sell tickets because this rumor went out
that he was going to perform behind a bubble because
he was afraid of the germs leaved it. So we're like, Oh,
I range at Michael Jackson and like what he's done

(32:00):
to his nose and he's a bit feminine. But to me,
he was like, oh, he's androgynous and he's strange. And
I was being bullied at school and whatever. So I
went to that bad tour with this field ticket. It
got exchanged for a front row seat in an arena. Wow,
So Michael front row and I just watched him as

(32:24):
a student and I just remember, and I still get
this feeling and every time before I go to get
on stage, that feeling that he made. Everyone felt this
electricity in the air, that you could feel the Adams
moving And I thought, I want to do that one day.
And I knew from a very young age, I thought

(32:45):
everyone wanted to do it, and I got talked out
of it from every possible angle, every possible teacher mentor
there's one music teacher and one boss at a record
store that I worked in that was encouraging to me.
But most people said you'll never make it. But I
knew that I would and did. Yeah, Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
It's I love that our generation had so many great
examples to encourage us to go it because Michael did
that for me, Madonna did that for me, Janet Jackson
did that for me. Even Garth Brooks and Reba McIntyre,
like watching their shows in the eighties and nineties is
what made me want to do that. I want to
be on that stage. And I feel like this generation

(33:28):
doesn't have quite as many to inspire them. I mean,
of course you have Beyonce, of course you have Taylor Swift,
but there's you know, there's very few of those that
are just doing those insane performances where it just inspires
that kid in the front row and be like, oh
my gosh, what is this. I need to do this,
And it's a.

Speaker 5 (33:46):
Feeling in the air and it's to me. I still
get it before most most decent performers, where part of
it is just the shit volume of the PA system.
Part of it is that the group experience, of the
expectation what's about. But it's a feeling like I want
to cry with joy, and I think I just feel

(34:09):
so lucky that I get to do that for a living.
That I get to because life is hard. It's fads,
you know, and we get to spend ninety minutes taking
people away and just changing their lives for a moment.
And I guess I just remembered what that meant to
me as a child. My life was so so hard,

(34:31):
but in those moments, I was transported and I still
strive for that. That's kind of what I strove for
when I write a song, when I'm singing whatever, I
look for someone in the audience who needs that attention,
not the person who's thirsty. I look for the person

(34:52):
who is a little bit broken like I was, and
I'll always find them and I just I know that
that was so Australian.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
No, you can.

Speaker 6 (35:06):
We love a good nor.

Speaker 5 (35:07):
Do I know that I've done my job. If maybe
I've made a connection.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
That's great. Well, when life does get hard, because you know,
you've talked about your mental health and how suppressing yourself,
you know it takes a chunk out of your mental
health bigly. But when life is getting hard and it
feels harder for you, what do you do personally to
kind of get over that and get out of your
head everything?

Speaker 5 (35:37):
So I talk very openly about mental health. I mean,
I'm at the moment, I'm very specifically and consciously working
on my childhood trauma because writing this book, at first
it was not fun because I would talk about these
experiences that happened to me as a child with violence,

(35:59):
and I did really have anywhere to go. You know,
some of my friends are actors, and you know they've
had training with maybe recall memory or summoning an experience
up and then they can neatly put that down. But
you know, like as singers, we just inhabit a moment,
we feel it in our body and then we move

(36:19):
on whereas it for me, I've had twenty five years
of being openly someone that has major depressive disorder, and
I think now the official diagnosis for me is just
that I have complex post traumatic stress disorder, which was
repeated exposure to violence and witnessing violence when I was

(36:44):
a child, And this particular treatment I'm doing at the
moment is called EMDR where based on rapid eye movement.
And I just wanted to sort it out because I
want to be your father one day, you know. I
want to be free of some of the triggers that

(37:07):
will sneak up on me in my life. I could
be I can be in a department store with someone
I love and they might go off to another part
of the store like any normal person would. But my
reaction is I feel panic inside as a part of
me remembers being lost as a child.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
Or being a band abandoned. Yeah, yeah, oh my god.
How much of this is going to be in your
memoir and down of it? And I'm sure that it's
cathartic at this point after writing about that.

Speaker 5 (37:41):
Yeah, and again, like with songs and music, like I
had no interest in writing like a celebrity memoir. I mean, yeah,
I was in a pop band and it broke up,
and that was a bit juicy. But I was grateful
that I was offered a publishing deal from Penguin because
I wrote an article for the Independent newspaper in the

(38:03):
UK about this about my depression, and I had a
couple of publishers just say we want to read that book.
So that's important to me. It's important to me that
people know that well, first of all, that suicide is
just never an option, you know, Like I talked to
my audience all the time that we have this pact,

(38:24):
which is that we just choose to stay. I have
a lyric on my most recent record. There's a song
called Poisoned Blood where I talk about the fact and
this is a trigger warning if anyone's listening that has
dealt with depression or suicide. I'm going to talk about
this in my family. But you know, I've had more
than a few people in my actual, you know, immediate

(38:48):
family who have committed suicide, and I just I've seen
the after effects of that and the aftermath of that,
and I just decided that would never be me. I
never wanted that, not because there's anything special or strong
about me, but just because I would speak about it,
and there's so much stigma around mental health. And that's

(39:10):
really the main thing I wanted to express in my
book was I actually thrive with my mental illness. I
thrive being gay, and I thrive having mental illness because
I express it, I talk about it, I seek help,
and and I fabilize it.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
And it's so nice that you're able to recognize that,
because I think majority of us don't. They don't even
know what to look forward that I'm even having a problem.
You know, I've dealt with depression, but it took me
years to figure out what that was. I'm like, oh,
that's what everyone talks about, and that's what I've been
feeling for years.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Now.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
I can depressed, I guess. But it's it's funny how
you just talk yourself out of getting help, or you know,
self diagnose yourself or you know, I don't know, I'm
being too dramatic. There's all these things that you put
through your brain that you know stop you from actually
getting the help.

Speaker 5 (40:01):
And yet you wouldn't do that if, say, your A
one C one was out of balance.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Sorry exactly.

Speaker 5 (40:06):
Yeah, it's really no different to that when you physically
see things and your blood work and all that, like
you can't well.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
Yeah, And there's also a big thing with just the
current culture. There's like this especially this misogynistic kind of
you know, purveying culture that if you care about your
mental health somehow you're a weaker person. Whereas it's just
another part of your body like everything else, like you said,
like your A and C, like your cholesterol. If you
have an unwell mind, if you're depressed, well, you know what,

(40:34):
that's kind of.

Speaker 6 (40:35):
Controlling your entire.

Speaker 4 (40:38):
It makes you a much stronger friend, more empathetic towards others.
It really creates makes you a whole person, and so
and so many people are just shamed for trying to
help that part of your body when it is a
huge part of yourself. It's you, it's your entire well being.

Speaker 5 (40:55):
Yeah. And also it's it's actually when you get treatment,
it's it's the relief is really quick.

Speaker 6 (40:59):
It's huge.

Speaker 5 (41:00):
Kind of I have I don't believe in regrets, but
I definitely have some regret over the fact that I
really suffered for years just thinking I can kind of
handle this or whatever. And it's like, dude, just if
there's some medication you can take. I remember a friend
said to me, once you know, you know, maybe there
is some medication you can take daily that would just

(41:22):
make you want to be here, and you know what
there was. Then one day, I remember waking up just
feeling like I still had all of my problems, but
they were just in another room and about them if
I wanted to, but they didn't overwhelm me. And then
I just got on with the rest of my life.
And I just that's the message, you know, that I

(41:42):
always try to convey to anyone, because there's an amazing
U two lyric when Michael Hutchins died. Bono wrote this
about Michael Hutchins, and he said, you know, you just
got stuck in a moment that you couldn't get out of, and.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
They're just yeah, there.

Speaker 5 (41:57):
And I think when you know, when there's a tragedy
involved which results in like an end of a life,
it is a tragedy because life is so so precious,
you know. And I can laugh about it because I've
had moments where I've felt a bit dramatic and the
next day I've been like, wow, I'm really glad I
didn't do anything about this, because this chocolate cake is amazing.

(42:21):
I'd be like, I'm so glad because this cake is
so amazing. That's life, and then you can have tiny
little moments that are worth living for as.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
Well as have you Have you ever written a children's
book about because I feel like you would read really
great children's books that really talk about mental health and
a find creative way. I don't know, I just feel
like you'd be reallyk.

Speaker 5 (42:43):
Of that think that, you know what. I was a
preschool teacher, so I love children, and I just finished
writing a musical which is, you know, loosely based on
my life, but it was it's about yeah, surviving trauma,

(43:04):
and it's that the protagonist is is a young kid
and written from a child's point of view, because I
do find that very easy to relate to and and
I love talking to children. I have a goddaughter who
is six, and I think because my own childhood was

(43:24):
so challenging, it's really really easy for me to empathize
with kids. I think because their emotions are so big,
and that's the one thing I do remember as a
preschool teacher.

Speaker 6 (43:36):
Of just.

Speaker 5 (43:39):
Watching children try to navigate these big feelings and just
help helping them understand that, you know, like sadness is huge,
you know, and sometimes they all the child wants is
for you to acknowledge that and just say you must
be feeling really sad, huh, like you must need a hug, right, Yeah,

(44:02):
that's how most of us feel.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, it's the most honest emotions coming from.

Speaker 4 (44:07):
I mean, most people just want the acknowledgement that you're
not doing well and want someone to see you and
say that they support.

Speaker 6 (44:12):
You and just that can help.

Speaker 4 (44:14):
Would that could honestly change from life to death for
a single person and people don't realize that.

Speaker 5 (44:20):
Yeah, so that's cool. So people, Yes, children's get that on.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Put that on the list, on the list. When did
you realize you could pursue music as a possible career.

(44:47):
Was there a certain teacher that you had that encouraged you? Like,
what what was that moment?

Speaker 5 (44:53):
It was in high school? And high school short story
was relentlessly bullied, just relentlessly. And then all the kids
that relentlessly bullied me were too dumb to continue on
into senior year, so they all just dropped out or
they became parents real quick. And that story and then
all of a sudden, I wasn't being bullied anymore, and

(45:15):
I was just being cast in theater productions and when
I could sing, I was just my whole identity just changed.
And it was a choir teacher, missus Sales, and she
came to my show in Brisbane on this last tour.
It was incredibly emotional because she had and well she

(45:38):
was experiencing an early on set memory situation and she
remembered me, and it was incredibly emotional because she saw me,
you know, and she put me in a girl's choir,
which at the time was just like, oh, man, like I'm.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Already being bullied, make it worse.

Speaker 5 (46:04):
But she saw that potential in me, and what they
did was I'm sure they rigged it. But I won
a scholarship to a theater camp and I couldn't afford it.
We were really, really poor, and suddenly I was like
a thirteen year old kid and I was surrounded by

(46:26):
other probably queer kids, to be honest, and that's when
I kind of knew I was special. I think we
may have a mutual friend in Debbie Gibson.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
Of course, love Happy birthday, Debbie. She just had a birthday.

Speaker 5 (46:41):
And I remember it was electric Youth was out, and
we did the choreography of Electric Youth, and I just
remember thinking I knew I was really good at it.
And then we wrote a song and I just was
really good at it. And it wasn't me being boastful
or anything. I just really felt like I was like

(47:02):
in this groove of where I was supposed to be
in my life. So I got to see those people
less well maybe six months ago, you know, in my hometown,
and just say thank you, like you've changed my life
so great. So those people I love that.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Now. I don't know the full story here, but Daniel Jones,
your partner in Savage Garden, it was you answered an
ad in a music magazine because he was looking for
a lead vocalist. How old were you when this happened,
and what were you expecting answering this ad?

Speaker 5 (47:38):
Right older? So again to contextualize it, So I sang,
and then school was ending, and you were expected to
know what you're supposed to do at the end of school.
I was sixteen coming out to seventeen when you finished,
and you're supposed to go to college. And I auditioned
because I thought you had to play an instrument to

(48:00):
sing I was a singer and I didn't play an instrument,
so I would have gone to a conservatorium. And I
did really well at school, so I was all My
teachers wanted me to go and study law or business
or something like that. But my music teachers got me
to audition to into an acting school and they take

(48:21):
fifteen people in the state. And I had a girlfriend
at the time, and I got in and all that
this is in the entire state. I got a position
and she.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
Didn't get in.

Speaker 5 (48:36):
So I was like, you know what, I'm going to
give this up because we're going to do this together
and we'll be together forever. She said, good, So I
gave up my No good.

Speaker 4 (48:46):
For me.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
No.

Speaker 5 (48:50):
So I ended up not being in that place where
I thought I was supposed to be. So I wasted
years study journalism and I thought, I'll write for MTV,
I'll write for Rollstone. That's how I'll get into the business.
I had a father who was so strict and told
me I could never be a musician. I was working

(49:10):
in a music store, working in a video store. Was
around the stuff you buy and Daniel's ad came out.
So I must have been maybe twenty one at that point,
and I was nervous as crap. My audition was the
beginning of Little Little Shop of Horrors, the female part,
you know, I mean insane.

Speaker 6 (49:33):
I couldn't.

Speaker 5 (49:35):
And he and his he lied, which look that's he's
kind of like a Simon cow is, very very clever.
But he just saw I was a diamond and the rough.
And I think the rest of the band that he
was with, like they lied. They said they had a
major publishing deal. They didn't what had happened. Chapel had said,
your songs are okay, but you need a new lead singer.

(49:56):
His brother was the lead singer.

Speaker 6 (49:59):
He got rid of his got me.

Speaker 5 (50:01):
The brother hated me because I out of a job.
And then we were just this covers band and I
was like, I thought we were going to be famous.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Where's that record? Deal?

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Was that whatever?

Speaker 5 (50:13):
But then there was a year of doing pubs, clubs,
gigs and whatever. I started to become a rock star.
I gide my hair black, I pierced my I just
it was like I got my mojo. And then he
was about to go to Alice Springs, which is in
the center of the country. They got a gig at
a casino and they said in nineteen ninety two, and

(50:35):
they said, do you want to come? And I was like, hell, no, no,
I'm not going, but I want to be in a
band with you. And he said, okay, then we'll be
a duo if you learn this keyboard. And he gave
me an end sonic keyboard, which most of our first
album was written on, and he gave me the instruction booklet.
He said, if you learn how to play this, I'll
be in a band with you. I didn't learn how

(50:56):
to play it. He came back and we wrote most
of the first album together and that's how we became.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
That is so crazy now. Savage Garden was probably not
the first name that y'all discuss naming yourselves.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
What was it?

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Bliss Bliss? Oh, bliss Bliss. I mean, I've heard worse.

Speaker 5 (51:18):
The first name we wanted to call ourselves was because
I was very very hip in terms of like ahead
of the curve of where music was going. I was
the person that was listening to like Jam and Lewis
and like I was all about production and I was
obsessed with pop before it even happened. So while you

(51:40):
were making your records, I hadn't even heard them yet,
but I knew that's where music was going, because music
before you, before Brittany, before any of the amazing pop
that was about to come out, it was Runge. Do
you remember took Over. I was obsessed with pop. I
had never let it go from the eighties all the

(52:01):
way through to sort of Janet, So I was just
listening to that music and a lot of early eighties
stuff like new wave music, Duran, Duranne. So I wanted
to call us Heart of Glass, which was a Blondie reference.
It was also kind of a reference to sort of
you know, those bands from around culture club days and

(52:23):
things like that. And in the end, Savage Garden was
a reference to Anne Rice. I was reading Anne rice
novel Matic Gay, so that's where the name came from.
I still hate the name, always hated the name. Really,
it was like fifth Choice, but it was the only

(52:44):
one copyrighted and there was no website for it.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Yet that's it.

Speaker 6 (52:49):
It stuck.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
I hate. Look it worked, it worked well for you guys.
So it seemed like things did move quickly for you
in Savage Garden, like right out of the gate, did
you feel I know, I know you were doing the
club gigs and all that type of stuff. You know
that like the first you know, couple of years. But
did you feel ultimately that it was a quick rise

(53:10):
for you guys, Yes.

Speaker 5 (53:13):
But I don't know if you relate to this. I
am a strong believer in I don't know a sense
of destiny. There are a few moments in my life
where I've felt it, and it's a spine tingling feeling.
But it used to sound arrogant back then saying it.
But I knew that it would happen. I knew. I
feel like I created it when I was thirteen. I
genuinely believe that, and there have been various moments in

(53:36):
my life where I believed that I've conjured something up
from the universe and it would happen. So I wasn't
surprised at all. It was meteoric, you know. All of
a sudden the record was out and then we didn't
have a US deal in Rosio Donald was playing it on.

Speaker 6 (53:53):
Her I remember that too.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
She was obsessed with a song, and because Rosie played
it on her show, that got radio on top of it.
And y'all didn't you have your American label yet, So
that must have been great.

Speaker 5 (54:06):
For you guys, and Clive Davis from Arista flew us
over economy of course Don Einer from Colombia. Basically the
two of them in the same day. We had essentially
an audition to see if we could sing, and it
was just Daniel playing keyboard. He weren't that great and

(54:29):
and it was great songwriter, the two of us together,
great songwrit It has a bit clunky on the keyboards.
I'm clunky on the keyboards, but yeah. So that was
terrifying because he was just like, oh my god, I
am no Bert Bacarach, you know, but I sang for
both gentlemen. Clives was terrifying because Clive was in the

(54:49):
room and no one reacted.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
Well, it's like the mafia bosses in the room, like creepy.

Speaker 6 (54:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (54:58):
Look, don was different. Donnie was just like he wanted
the band. Arisa wanted us to put some covers on
the record, and we refused, and Columbia just said, you
can do whatever you want, we just want you nice.
And so we had complete artistic control over that record

(55:19):
from the beginning. So we went into the label in
the US with complete artistic control to a certain degree.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
What was it like meeting Rosie o'donald for the first time,
knowing that she had such a I don't know, a
little start for your career in the States.

Speaker 5 (55:36):
Incredible, And every now and then she'll send me a
little instant message and she'll say, I'm still so proud
of you.

Speaker 6 (55:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (55:45):
Oh, I get teary eyed because she's a gay icon
and she's a pioneer and my life that we wouldn't
have a US career without Rosie. There's no way in
the world. And she knows that.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
And I know that she was the I mean if
you wanted, if you wanted to get into pop culture,
yeah you had Rosie had to be behind you. I
mean she was the in the zeitguy.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
Well, I mean I watched that show as a young
kid all the time with my mom after school. And
that's how with you guys, Like she also took an
affinity to when.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
She eventually did. Yeah, we did go on the first.

Speaker 4 (56:18):
But eventually and like remember I remember always she took
you to like was it universal or something?

Speaker 1 (56:23):
So that's when I almost killed her.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Yeah, I just.

Speaker 4 (56:26):
Remember that so vividly, and that kind of like you
became more popular for me at that point.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Yeah, She definitely helped our popularity, sure, because it was
after that Disney special and then when Rosie kind of
attaches to you, it was just it was the perfect scenario.

Speaker 4 (56:41):
Kis Min, I might say, it was there going to
be their band name. It was going to be kis
Mit instead of being seeing Yeah kis Min real.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah it works. We use it a lot these days.

Speaker 6 (56:53):
So who was that lose? Yeah? Yeah, it was his.

Speaker 5 (56:56):
Idea right Listen because when we were on tour, I
used to watch your No Strings Attached DVD constantly and
I my god, like we were just playing like we
were playing like arenas and you guys were playing like
stadiums at that point, and I was just like obsessed.
Still pill can watch that performance and just like, oh

(57:20):
my god, so tight. And recently I watched you know,
all those amazing making making obs of those tours and
it and the stamina and the professionalism and whenever, like
I still bow down because that when when I was
a kid watching Madonna, the only reason I got into

(57:41):
fitness was because madonn jogged and I was like, what
the hell's jogging? And I saw having to do cardio.
That's I used to run on a treadmill and sing
because of you.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
Yeah, that's what that's what we'd have to do, and
you just had to put the work in. And but
at an early age, you didn't even know that was
You didn't know that was hard work. That was just
what it was. And I feel like the same way
we always tell people because we have twins now and
they're like, oh, that must be just so hard like twins.
I'm like, well, we don't really know the difference because
we didn't have one before, so this is just all
we know. So to us, it just seems this.

Speaker 4 (58:14):
Is a part for the course. There'll be two in October, yeah,
next month.

Speaker 5 (58:18):
So did you sleep much for the first six months
or not?

Speaker 1 (58:22):
It was different the first couple of months, No, because
the whole time I just would I didn't want to
sleep because I felt like at any second they were
going to die. So it's just like constantly just watching
the breathe. Yeah, sleep deprivation is it's a real thing,
sane with kids. There's so many times the first couple
of months where I'm holding them and it felt like

(58:43):
I'm in a dream and I'm staring at them. I'm like,
are you real? Like it just didn't. They didn't seem real,
and at any moment I thought I was just gonna
like drop them because I was so tired. It just
I just felt like I was in a dream state
the first two months.

Speaker 6 (58:55):
Yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 5 (58:57):
Well, I'm very jealous and that sense in a good way.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Well you want to have kids at some point, right.

Speaker 5 (59:01):
Dude, And I'm tent on doing that.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Well when you're ever ready, ye know, because we got
all the parts to do it, so we do.

Speaker 6 (59:10):
We know everyone, we got you. We've done it all.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
All right, So we got to get into some of
the songs there. So it seems like you have some
of the most romantic love songs ever out there, truly
madly deeply I knew I loved you. Now, where did
you find the inspiration for these love songs?

Speaker 5 (59:44):
Well, they're aspirational. I mean. What I think is fascinating
about on You I loved you before I met you,
was that I was not in love when I write
that song. And in fact, that song we used to
call the FU song because we delivered our second album
to Sony and don Iina said, yeah, it's good, but

(01:00:06):
there's no truly madely deeply on there. And I remember
being so offended and was like rolling up my sleeves,
being like, oh he wants he wants another truly madly
deeply well, Kim, and we went into Walter Alfanasiev's front,
this producer's front writing room. There was just a white
grand piano, and we wrote that song in maybe ten

(01:00:29):
or fifteen minutes, in a cynical sense, like very much,
let's write the most basic, simple whatever. I prefer that
song to this day, to truly madly deeply, because when
I started writing the melody and the words came out
of me, it made me want to cry, and I
didn't know why, but I know today now because it's

(01:00:50):
a song about future love and I was not feeling
that love and I do feel that love today. Sometimes
you just have to wait for it. But mothers come
up to me and say to me all the time,
this is how I feel about my baby. And so
the whole time it was out, maybe fifteen years, I
would always be like, but I would sing the song

(01:01:12):
and sort of go through the motions. But there's something
sometimes I think. I write songs and the subject matter
or the experience hasn't even happened yet. And that's why
truly was different. Truly, it was very much. You know,
I was married to a woman and she's still one
of my good friends and she's a sweetheart. I am

(01:01:34):
so grateful to her for having the bravery and the
compassion to realize we're so young, you know, and to
realize that I hadn't finished growing yet, and she let
me go. You know, she still loved me and she
let me go, and even though I was gay, we

(01:01:58):
still really cared about each other. It was a really
difficult breakup because it was so confusing to me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
Well young I loved each other, it just wasn't an
romantic love exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:02:07):
And I remember being apart from her when I was
recording the record, and that song is about her. Yeah
it was about like I missed you so much and whatever.
But you know, not long after that, she was this
incredible person that essentially said you have to be free
and you have to be the person that you want
to be. And thank God for her, because, im it's

(01:02:30):
when I would beg her to come back. Like I was, listen,
I was like a nun Like I wasn't like I
wish that I had all these amazing erotic stories of me,
like just being out there single, but you know, and
also being in the public eye and being in a
pop band. It wasn't like I could go and date
or anything, and so I found it really hard. And

(01:02:51):
so I would often call her and be like, oh,
we just like live together and just whatever. She would
just say no, got allowed back. And I'm so so
grateful to her for that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Now where is she these days?

Speaker 5 (01:03:07):
She's amazing. Oh man, she just she just kicks ass.
We you know, we I saw her backstage in my
hometown and uh, oh my god. I got into so
much trouble. I didn't even put her on the guest
list a person and she said to me, I was

(01:03:29):
going to kick your ass, but we hugged and she
just said, You're always going to be my person. You know.
She's just she's an amazing, strong woman, incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
So a few years back, Savage Garden unfortunately broke up
one what ultimately led to that breakup, And you've said
that you probably will never reunite, but is that the
real truth?

Speaker 5 (01:03:52):
Oh my god. Yes, I was in a band with
someone who, once they got success, got board with it
and didn't want it anymore. Thanks for telling the rest
of us. And then lied about how the band broke up.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
How did he say it broke up?

Speaker 5 (01:04:12):
How did he say it broke up? This is it
broke up? Where backstage in Japan about to launch our
second album, we have our second number one single in
the US, just charting. Ah, and he sees himself on
a beautiful promo bag from the Japanese record company and
he freaks out because he doesn't want to be a product.

Speaker 6 (01:04:33):
Oh god, so you.

Speaker 5 (01:04:36):
Know, because he's an artist and he's a serious artist,
he don't want to be a product anymore. And I
walk in a management meeting where he's leaving the band
a week before the album's coming out, and I'm going,
what is going on? Oh God, you have to broke
some deal in the room where I say, what if

(01:04:56):
maybe you just turned up and did the dates that
we've booked arenas for the next year, And he's like,
maybe that could work.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Finish your commitments.

Speaker 5 (01:05:07):
I did all the work for the band. I did
every interview, every you know what it's like Bravo magazine,
tried as a duo on your own. The guy, Oh,
he's busy. He didn't do anything. And yet me loyal, naive, loving,
I kept thinking it will eventually change his mind. And

(01:05:31):
meanwhile he was launching his own record labels, he was
recording bands, he was taking meetings. He thought that he
was going to become like Ryan Tetta or Simon or
something like that. Right, and we have all this on video.
It's so funny, like we were filming a documentary at

(01:05:51):
the time, and so towards the end of the tour,
it started to dawn on me that well he was
serious about this and it was not going to happen.
So I said him, begged him and said, listen, if
I become a solo artist, you have to tell people
this is your idea because beatles, right, I will be
blamed and also the singer. They're going to think that

(01:06:13):
I just wanted to be single. And he promised me
that he would. And we had a management contract at
the time. We're managed by two different parties, and one
of the parties we had a clause in there that
it had activated where we could leave the management company

(01:06:34):
if we wanted to. The key man it was a
guy called Bob Cavallo from Disney used to manage prints,
and Bob had left the company and I didn't want
to be as a solo artist managed by this other entity.
So I said to Daniel, can you help me write
to them. We just need to put in writing that
we want to leave this company. And he said, yeah,

(01:06:55):
absolutely fine. The tour ends, we go our separate way,
we have a goodbye dinner, we have a farewell dinner.
It's like, my god, it's really over.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
It's over. It's great.

Speaker 5 (01:07:04):
You're going to tell everyone that you left. Yes, you're
gonna write this management thing. Yes, what's gonna happen. And
then one day I'm at home in San Francisco going
and get a phone call from him, and he says,
I've changed my mind. I don't really need to leave
the management contract because I'm not going to be a
performer anymore. And I said, you're gonna screw me and

(01:07:25):
he said, yeah, but I have to look out for me.
So we weren't talking. Yeah, I go on to my
solo record. I'm making my solo record. And do you
remember what long lead press was a long lead for people.
We don't really have it anymore, but long lead us
print magazines where you would record an interview and there

(01:07:49):
would be an unbreakable commitment between the record company and
the publisher and this is for Rolling Stone in Australia
or it was, or maybe one of the major newspapers
where was a three month old So they heard my
solo album and then I told them, yes, the band
has broken up. Whatever. And the next day I was

(01:08:10):
about to phone him even though we were not speaking,
to say listen, I've started my press so in about
three months time, the story's going to break. I need
you to make sure you tell people the truth. Well
a journalist called the story into a tabloid newspaper. What
but the next day this story breaks. Band breaks up

(01:08:32):
and Daniel is on the road with one of his
new bands that he signed that never ended up becoming
successful and was at a bit bitchy. I'm glad. Yes,
he's had a radio station and a journalist says to him,
will we hear that Savage Garden is breaking up? As
it's the truth, so I'll give him this one break
Only he says it's the first I've ever heard of it.

(01:08:55):
I was the headline lead singer leaves band doesn't even
a guy h No, I'm on a plane to New York.
I think you were involved in this too. Lance, This
bono recording called what's going on?

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Oh, yes, let's go out. Yes, I was on it.

Speaker 5 (01:09:14):
Okay, So I'm on a tarmac in Lady just going, dude,
what have you just said? And he said the same
thing he said to me about the management thing. He said, well,
you've said what you've said. Now I have to look
out for myself. I'm going I look like Creamer.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
I'm going yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:09:32):
He's like, you'll see. I'm like, what do you mean,
I'll see. What are you going to say? And he says,
whatever I have to say?

Speaker 6 (01:09:39):
Oh no, never.

Speaker 5 (01:09:41):
Wanted to be famous? Who left the band? Suddenly arranged
a press conference and there's a picture sitting on the
steps of our local town going, look at all MOPy,
Oh god, it's gone with that story since time, immemoriam only.
I've always just told this story and told the truth

(01:10:02):
and over time. Now the truth, which is what I say,
is a fact and people know what happened. But for
five or six years, he there were so many knives
in my back. So the band never gonna get back together? Lance,
Hell no.

Speaker 6 (01:10:17):
Good.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
Usually I say that we do put bands back together
on the show, but I'm gonna say on this one,
I don't know if we're gonna be able to help no.

Speaker 5 (01:10:25):
Man, Yeah, and admits what he did and publicly apologizes
to me. Okay, maybe we'll do a charity show.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Okay, So there is there is a chance.

Speaker 4 (01:10:35):
I think he was just salty that you got all
the attention, because honestly, I didn't even realize he was
in the group until.

Speaker 6 (01:10:41):
That's a kid.

Speaker 4 (01:10:42):
I only thought that you was you and like like
the girl backrop singer, such a betrayal.

Speaker 5 (01:10:48):
And I think for me, like when you have to
like literally grow a new limb and learn how to
walk and do all that stuff. Now I do everything
he used to do. I produced my own records. My
last record I wrote, produce, prod engineered of you know,
I'm the Miracle, was mixed by a genius called Trevor Yusuda.

Speaker 6 (01:11:08):
That was it.

Speaker 5 (01:11:09):
The only thing I didn't do was mix my album. Like,
I'm so proud of the to say, how would I
even write a song with him?

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
Yeah, Well, after ten years of taking a break and
you're coming back with Homosexual, which you said you wrote produce.
I mean you did everything for this one. Did you
purposely want to go into that project like that or
did you eventually be like, no, wait, I should be
doing all of this.

Speaker 5 (01:11:34):
I did it because I remember being really inspired by
George Michael and I loved how hands on George was,
and I think for a long time I was really
intimidated not to be that. I was always producing records.
I was always there and never really given the credit
for that. Sometimes, especially on the second Savage Garden record.
You know, I will never ever criticize our songwriting chemistry.

(01:11:57):
It was absolutely fifty to fifty and Daniel deserves all
of that credit. It was fifty to fifty and his
songwriting with me amazing. I'll never ever say anything about that,
and nothing they do that, But yeah, he really wasn't
there in the studio the second record. It was Walter A.
You know, I don't even know if Daniel is playing

(01:12:18):
on the second record, you know. So I was there
from that second record, watching, learning, loving than Walter did
my first solo record, and then from then on for
the last I don't know, since you know, last twenty
three years, I've been a studio animal, and I realized
that so much of producing is taste and intuition and

(01:12:40):
just why don't we try this? And so I've I
learned how to do a bunch of this.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
Stuff that I'm well, I'm sure you learned so much
doing something like that. What do you think is the
biggest thing that you did learn about the side of
the producing side of yourself.

Speaker 5 (01:12:56):
That usually your first idea is the best one that
record every melody like melody king, you know, you know
chord progressions are They're less special I think than say
a sound palette. I think a sound palette is what
makes a really amazing producer. You know, anyone can really

(01:13:20):
sort of play some chords, but it's creating a sonic field,
which I don't confess to be that great at. But
you know, when I think of some of the incredible
mix engineers and producers that have made some of my
favorite records, you know, they just create a world that's

(01:13:43):
it's alchemy, that's magical. It's just the thing that makes
and recognizing when the hair is standing up on the
back of your neck. Same thing with a melody. Sometimes
you can just over polish a turd.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
But true, what do you think of with AI? You know,
be in the big moment right now? How bad do
you think that is going to change our industry? And
what can we do to make sure that art stays aren't.

Speaker 5 (01:14:11):
Oh, I have a controversial opinion about that. I think
the financial aspect of it is the only thing to
really be worried about. I think we need to make
actors are getting paid. There's a situation at the moment
when it comes to film where they're trying not to
have background actors because you just have a bunch of

(01:14:31):
CGIP you're trying to have. They're trying to do a
bunch of people out of their hard and work that
I have moral opposition to. When it comes to I
think there's a fear at the moment that's a little
bit like our understandable fear of Spotify and the devaluation

(01:14:54):
of music. I think we need to make sure that
the financial aspect of AI doesn't dominate. If there's a
way to collaborate with the computer without making the computer
the highest paid songwriter in the room. Yeah, you know.
I think being afraid of technology is never a great

(01:15:15):
idea because technology is always going to advance.

Speaker 6 (01:15:18):
It's always going to be here. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:15:19):
Yeah, But giving technology or a stream and value, as say,
holding a physical product was a stupid thing to do.
It was a really really stupid thing to do it once.
The minute you told someone that a song was only
worth ninety nine cents, a song is worth, yeah, a

(01:15:41):
song is priceless. But we told people it was only
worth ninety nine sense, we lost it and we did that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
I never even looked at it that way. But you're right,
you're completely right, all right. So when do you know
the date the memoir is going to come out? Because
I want to make sure that we all get.

Speaker 5 (01:16:00):
That kind you know. I think it's slated for the
Christmas period next year. I know, lots of deadlines, said,
you have to really write a book?

Speaker 6 (01:16:12):
Who knew?

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
It's a lot. It's a lot, and it's just like
a musical. I mean, it doesn't take as long as
a musical, but it's a lot more undertaking than most
people would ever understand.

Speaker 5 (01:16:23):
I'm great, you know. I didn't realize that there that
you know. I mean, I'm writing it, you know, and
a lot of people don't write their book. Yeah, And
so I have to turn in essentially a final draft
by February next year, so I'll best be getting.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
To it, all right. Well, we're looking forward to that.
And one fun fact that I love about you? Is
you love your Star Wars probably more than you Yeah, yeah,
a little bit. Well, of course I do have the
mayor fourth be with your birthday, which makes me kind of.

Speaker 5 (01:16:57):
Like, isn't Joey the really big.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
Oh yeah, he he's big star Wars, Yeah, for sure,
and you collect I think a lot of things from
Star Wars too. What made you get into Star Wars really.

Speaker 5 (01:17:10):
Just I think the idea that there was another purpose
for me somewhere else a long time time, in a
galaxy far far away. And the lead character you don't
have to be Sigmund Freud to work out how I
could relate to this. He was an orphan. He felt

(01:17:33):
like and knew in his heart that his destiny was
somewhere else. One would believe him, and he would look
up to the stars and he would imagine that there
was a greater purpose for him, And it was his
own self belief that propelled him toward eventually becoming what

(01:17:53):
his destiny was, which was essentially the last Jedi. You know,
like this credible, mystical, powerful being. But he started off
as just a farm boy in a.

Speaker 1 (01:18:05):
Stupid hat kind of what I was to You're so
poetic I can. I can see why you are a songwriter.
All right, let's give a frosted tip here before I
let you go. You took a decade long hiatus from
your career. For someone who wants to give back into
a passion they once had, what tips do you have

(01:18:27):
for them?

Speaker 5 (01:18:29):
Oh, slowly remove all the things from your life that
make you happy. Hit rock bottom, and then you realize
that you can do a list actually on one side
and just look back and think what used to make
me happy and start reintroducing those things. And I think

(01:18:51):
for me, I purposely moved away from music, and I
was doing everything from I went through the Groundlings program
in LA, studying improv comedy. I was even doing stand
up why, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
Know which I think is the hardest job in entertainment,
by the way.

Speaker 5 (01:19:08):
Oh yeah, sort of did everything I could to sort
of deny this part of me that we're so essential.
But now I look back and I'm so grateful. If
I look at the music videos that I made during
this project, you know, I directed a lot of them,
I acted in them. I ended up making friends who

(01:19:30):
had no idea who I was. So all of my
friendships and relationships became so much more grounded and real.
So I mean, honestly, I just think that cliched phrase,
you know, a change is as good as a holiday.

Speaker 1 (01:19:44):
For me.

Speaker 5 (01:19:45):
I wasn't happy making music, and I had to leave
it to appreciate what I had. I just know that
one day something in my life needed expressing so badly
that I found myself here in at my studio and

(01:20:06):
I wrote a song called Let's Try Being in Love,
and it was It was so passionate and so colorful,
and I knew everything. I knew everything, every color, every
show I knew. I started collecting clothing. I knew exactly
what everything was going to be. So I think you
have to love it more than the paycheck, and you

(01:20:28):
have to love it more than the process and the
pain and the callouses and all that sort of stuff.
And I didn't and I do now.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):
So yeah, sometimes you have to let it go. And
if it comes back to or what do they say,
when you love someone, let they come out? It's meant
to be.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
I just get to a couple of fan questions sharensby Eskireka,
I would like to know is there a Savage Garden
song you wish you could re record.

Speaker 5 (01:20:57):
Oh, great question. I never would because I understand that
the artists desire to do that because my voice just
wasn't as good back then as it is today. I'm
just older and I have more control over it now,
and I think it's just a better instrument on a
good day. On a bad day, it sounds like a

(01:21:19):
foghorn and my dog hates it. But yeah, some of
the there's a mistake in the song to the Moon
and Back where I say all her friends they've been
trialed for treason, and the phrase is tried. It's no embarrassing.

Speaker 1 (01:21:43):
I love how things like that makes make a cut
of it. You know, it's like it's.

Speaker 4 (01:21:49):
Like no one else saw this, No one person really
noticed it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:55):
But see, I love mistakes like that. I think that's great.
I'm bippo. Would like to know what was it like
being at the Olympics.

Speaker 7 (01:22:03):
Oh, it was so exciting because that's the first time
I met Kylie Minogue, just before Kylie's one of several reinventions,
but that was right before I Can't get You out
of my head.

Speaker 5 (01:22:18):
Yeah, slightly accessible then, so she was the massive star,
but slightly more accessible where I got her phone number.
So that really really cool.

Speaker 1 (01:22:32):
Yeah, All the Lovers is like my ultimate song. Ye,
that video that was incredible.

Speaker 5 (01:22:39):
That new song.

Speaker 1 (01:22:42):
Was like the biggest Pride moment ever, Like it was.

Speaker 5 (01:22:45):
That was a little riff on.

Speaker 6 (01:22:48):
It was a good it was a good dad joke.
We appreciate it. Actually here at the show, I love
it all right.

Speaker 1 (01:22:54):
Well, Darren, it was so great to catch up with you.
I hope, I hope it doesn't take us another quarter
of a century to see each other again.

Speaker 6 (01:23:01):
Well, we live twenty minutes away, so hopefully right next.

Speaker 5 (01:23:03):
To you, I know, And let's do the la thing
and just say let's get lunch.

Speaker 6 (01:23:07):
Let's get get lunch.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
I would love that. No, seriously, let's get together because
I would love to even catch up with you even
more and talk about things we can't talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:23:14):
On the radio.

Speaker 1 (01:23:15):
Oh yeah, juicy juicy scoop. Oh no, that's heathern McDonald uh.

Speaker 2 (01:23:22):
Both.

Speaker 5 (01:23:22):
Thanks so fun?

Speaker 1 (01:23:24):
Oh, definitely fun. Is there anything you would like to
tell your fans before we let you go?

Speaker 5 (01:23:28):
Oh my gosh, just thanks for remembering me, or we
say that, just thanks for remembering me. I just think,
you know, how do you remember.

Speaker 1 (01:23:35):
That you're unforgettable. Are you kidding me? I mean especially
for our generation. You were the voice of our generation
for so long. So yeah, you're you're graded with us.

Speaker 5 (01:23:44):
Yeah, yeah, very great.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
Thanks.

Speaker 5 (01:23:47):
Let me peek inside your home.

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
It's been really oh I know. Well yeah, well if
you look at anywhere else, is gonna be baby stuff
just everywhere everywhere. It's a disaster.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
It's a fun disaster, all.

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
Right, buddy. Well, thank you so much for being on
the show, and I hope you have a great rest
of the day.

Speaker 5 (01:24:01):
You guys too.

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
All right, body dodge later bye, mister Darren.

Speaker 6 (01:24:20):
Hay Shall, Shall we say it again?

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
I mean the nicest, just the nicest, but what what
Australian person do you know that is not the nicest?

Speaker 6 (01:24:30):
I mean it's kind of true name one.

Speaker 1 (01:24:32):
I can't I'm sure there's a lot of that strains
out there being like oh Susie Smith.

Speaker 6 (01:24:38):
Oh Sue Suthee Smith.

Speaker 4 (01:24:41):
God, okay, you proved it, Jammy, Oh Jammay, she's a
title bitch.

Speaker 1 (01:24:47):
For y'all that don't know. Jam you have to catch
up on this show. It's well, it's been a few
years now, it's been a few years, but it's it
started out, what was the show.

Speaker 4 (01:24:55):
Summer High Time with Chris Lily who plays all these
different characters. It's could be it's a controversial show.

Speaker 1 (01:25:02):
You know, it's controversial, but it's it's supposed to be constraus.
It's supposed to be supposed to be ignorantly controversial. Yes,
and I I just and Jimmy is just such a
crazy character.

Speaker 6 (01:25:13):
She's a gay icon.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
She has a gay icon for sure. So he plays
like a sixteen year old very you.

Speaker 4 (01:25:18):
Know, obnoxious, rich private school girl on jim My private
school girl.

Speaker 6 (01:25:24):
Jay A m i A. We had yet set her on.

Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
Show, okay, because they spin off these to the characters.

Speaker 6 (01:25:32):
Yeah, they had jam A for a few couple.

Speaker 1 (01:25:33):
Of seaons okay, Yeah, and there was another character too, right.

Speaker 6 (01:25:36):
Yeah, they had mister Geez. They had the boy, uh,
the boy.

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
I forget his name.

Speaker 4 (01:25:42):
And they had a whole new season where he did
one called like Crazy's or something.

Speaker 1 (01:25:46):
Well, we didn't ask him what he's binging right now,
So just go watch that show, all right, guys. Well
that is all the show I have for you. Thank
you so much for listening. Turkey as always, Gobble, gobble, gobble, yeah,
goble gobs all, I got it all right. Be good
to each other out there, don't drink and drive, take
care of those animals, and remembered Hey, thanks for listening.

(01:26:10):
Follow us on Instagram at Frosted Tips with Lance and
Michael Turchinard and at Lance Bass for all your pop
culture needs

Speaker 4 (01:26:17):
And make sure to write a review and leave us
five stars six if you can see you next time.

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