October 10, 2024 • 43 mins
Kevin and Casey listen to a pop punk song about the world’s obsession with fame and wealth written by famous millionaires Good Charlotte. Will the guys finally grasp the concept of wealth inequality or R they pOsErs that don’t GET pUnK rOcK mUsiC?!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Give it a chance, Give it a chance, Give it
a chance.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Good morning, give it.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
A chance, Give it a chance, Give it a chance,
Give it a chance, good morning, Give it a You
want to give it a chance, Give it a chance,
give it a chance. Just I feel drunk with power
when I have the song and you don't have.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
It, And are you drunk with alcohol? It's twelve eleven pm.
I don't I want to want to pull the curtain
back too much. But maybe this becomes a little different
kind of chance you. Maybe Casey's got to give rehabit Chancey.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I took, I took, I took Edie's space cake. I
love that this is becoming a runner.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Protected Services has so much a yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
There's three different episodes where the defendant mentions explicitly drugging
his underage child.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah no, so yeah, this is well, actually all right,
I'll find a transition from that. You know, if you were,
if you were really rich, you might.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I'm a rich No, it's not that would be.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
That jumped to very No, I think.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
If rich rock of failure. Okay, sorry sorry, sorry ahead.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Sometimes you know rich people, I don't you know they
might they might not notice when their kids are this
sort of lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I was yet I had it. It's a lifestyle, and
it's in the famous I have to be I have
to be a little.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, okay, you gotta be careful here.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, it's I kind of love it. I'm kind of
welcoming it. No, there's a there's a degree or two
of of of separation. Uh uh, I'm into it. This Actually,
this is actually liberating for me.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, I'll gonna be honest with you. Like there, I
was between a lot of songs and and there are
I want to get into this category in following podcast
or you know, later podcasts where.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Like hot topic emo, is that the category? Yeah, yeah,
white belt category.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Of I like this song. The world doesn't like this song,
and I want to defend it. But also I understand
the problems with it. So it's like I've already given
this a chance, but I want the world to give
it a chance. Right, That's that's the evolution totally.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I also just think, again, I want to point something out.
I'm going to point this out probably every three episodes
of our show, and maybe every three times I talk
about it on the internet. Again, every single song we
do this idea that the world doesn't like it will
be it's a very specific definition of the world and doesn't.
These are all songs that were like enormously successful songs.
(02:58):
Massive is normous. These songs were is normous and so yeah,
it's like, you know, lifestyles are rich and the famous
was like literally that song was like on TRL and shit,
so you can't It's like, you know, I do want
to say one thing quick before we get into it.
Someone recently that I a person who is an is
(03:19):
an audience member who I've known for a while from
my own little music world, I think listening to our
podcast reached out to me. I was like, so, do
you just like not like anything pop cultural? And I
was like, no, that's not it at all. I like
a lot of it. But then it prompted me to reflect,
like are you a snob? Because I feel like I've
(03:40):
known snobs my whole life, from like fourteen getting into
like whatever independent music culture. There was always the gatekeepers
that were like there to make me feel and I'm like,
what's so funny about that concept is that I actually
feel like my music tastes are so pedestrian and predictable.
It's like, how can you be a snob if you
like three bands? You talk about Elliott Smith and Irvana
(04:02):
and like Bob Dylan or something like all of the like,
there's not a person in there. I guess Elliott's closest
to like a little bit of a yeah, like hidden Treasure,
But the guy was nominated for an Oscar. It's not
like he's a secret so.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Soundtrack artist, like, yeah, he has got songs on soundtracks that.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, exactly. It's like, so I'm like, no, it's not
that I don't like anything pop cultural, nor is it
that I'm a snob. It's that I like two bands.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
But I was thinking about that. It's funny you mentioned
it because I was thinking about this too, and I
think I am a snob. But I believe that everyone
is right, like everyone knows what they like exactly. But
you know, I think I think there are people who
are louder about it. And yeah, in doing this podcast,
you know we are. Of course we're being louder about.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
It by definition you were talking into microphones.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, but I do think that our you know, going
back to our ethos, which is like trying to be
positive through this or just trying to change our own
experience or open our horizons a little bit or.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Changed like national policy about all manner of different you know, initiatives.
And so I want to announce my candidacy and my
VP is okay, see so sorry.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
How can we be snobs when we do that?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
How can we be running for Prez?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Prez Hilton? Which is a similar era to this.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Song vid was she in the vid?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Oh I was? I said, Perez Hilton. Paris is married
to one of the Charlottes.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Paris is married to Perez Hilton.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
No, no, no, no, Paris Hilton is not married. No
sorry sorry, Richie Nicole rich Richie Nicole Richie is married
to one of them. And then I think Cameron Diaz
is married to the other.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Good for the brothers. Also, you know Guy Ritchie is married.
Guy Ritchie is married to Waylan. Uh what Madden, the
other Madden brother. There's like many It's like.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
It's Madonna's husband, Madonna's X is married to Marlon Wayans
Jennings Madden.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, check it out. It's all on Wikipedia.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
That's the segue into the song.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah. Okay, So one thing is I'm pretty sure this
song is post is this it? So, I think two
thousand and two. Yeah, so it's a year after that
(06:41):
that thing hives the I Don't want to Get Free,
that Vines record. It's that like new rock thing is
happening this the White Stripes are starting to percolate, pre
Jack White becoming like Vincent Price mixed with someone who
accidentally writes like the soccer anthem of all time, which
is an amazing turn. But when they were like, you
(07:02):
know these that whole thing is happening, this music for
a pop punk band. The sound of this song is
actually like a little more abrasive and a little less
like kind of candy ass than some of that stuff.
Sounded like the drums have real the drums are doing
that like last night, which was doing what's it called
(07:27):
Tom Petty American Girl. But it's got that thing which
is a little departure. It lives in the same energetic space,
but it's that thing about like how there's a difference
between like pop punk and punk pop. Super Chunk is
a punk pop band. Japandroids is a punk pop band.
The Thermals are a punk pop band. And yes, I'll
(07:47):
say it aspects of Nirvana. It's a punk pop band.
Then there's pop punk, which is to me, something that
is defined by and this isn't negative, it's just a
little bit more like there's something a little bit more
kind of caffeinated and like it's a little bit less
(08:07):
aggressive maybe than it is like caffeinated is what I
would say. And there's almost something and a lot of
it that's like, you know, a little like whether it's
Green Day, whether it's Blinkwin eighty two, where there's there's
something that's like by nature meant to be a little
bit less serious and a little bit more like sophomoric
or something like that. Yeah, and now are there is
there a real significant difference If you sat someone down
(08:29):
who'd never listened to this music, If you sat someone
down and played them like a super hyper enough by
super chunk and this, they might be like, oh, it's
like basically lives in the same world. But I think
there's like a significant if you are in these worlds,
it feels pretty significant.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It's vocals. No, I think there is a difference, and
I think it's vocals, And I think that Green Day
really toes the line of those both to both those
two things, especially like if we just look at Dookie, right, Yes,
I think it. I think what it influenced took took
more liberties with that, like sophomoric thing, yeah, even vocal
quality of your your Billy Joe Armstrong of like yeah, yeah,
(09:05):
you know like his like that too, who are you right?
Like that's where that came from. But I don't think
Billy Joel and Joe Armstrong, I don't think he was
really he was influenced by you know, sex pistols and clash,
I think, and he was channeling that. But if you
listen to the demos, like they recently released the demos
of of Doolittle, it's so cool to see he wrote
(09:29):
these really good songs.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, and like and like if they just they.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Just cleaned them up a little. It's not like they
went into the studio with a producer. No, and the
Dookie record like it's fast and furious, but it's but
it's it's it's really like the songs are there.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
That record has like grit. The sound is gritty. It's
not it's not American Idiot, which by that point is
like built for and that's not a criticism either. That
was intentionally built for radio dominance. Whereas Dookie was built
for like a slightly cleaned up version of what this
(10:07):
like kind of like you're right, British punk by way
of ap Ivy and uh and and Bay Area SKA
and punk thing. But I think I do think you're
right to iterate that as you get into blinkin eighty
two and then as you get into this league of
bands and those.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Other bands you mentioned, like thermals like they to me
don't have that same like vocal like lifestyles of the rich,
and it's not I don't even I'm not coming I'm
not even coming forward. I'm just you know, saying that
there's a different observation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's because there's
a place for it, and I there's a there's a
bunch of blank win too. There's a lot of pop
punky even like once in a while, like a like
(10:45):
a simple Plan song comes on, I'm like, I feel
so nostalgic for it that I'm like I could completely
separate how you know. Some of it is a little vapid, right,
It's a little hollow of songwriting, and this song, I
think at its worst has that. But it's popcorn, right,
It's just it's it's light, and it's fun sometimes and
(11:05):
and I do like it.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
No doubt, no doubt. And it's so it's so likable,
and it's so approachable, and it's so digestible, and it's
also what what it's what's brilliant about it and what
is what why it spoke to millions and millions and
millions and millions of especially suburban kids, is that it's
(11:27):
sort of like the kind it's like a kind of
rebellion that is like very digestible. There's like a rebelliousness
in you know, in that it's fast, in that the
guitars are distorted, in that the guy's got a kind
of like adenoidal nasal vocal quality that's a little like snotty,
like a bratty kid kind of a thing. But it's
(11:48):
not like actually like you know, uh, challenging you in
any way about like any sort of like radical ideas
or is not roca like no no, or even aesthetic.
It's not like it's it's not even like it's like
a Steve Albini record or something where you're like, oh
my god, like there's something you're hearing in the sounds
that you're like, like PJ. Harvey or something where you're like,
(12:10):
holy shit, like that's kind of like or or Trent
Reznor or someone like that. We mentioned him in a
recent episode where there's like something in the Sonics that
are actually a little bit like h anyway that is
to that is that is all there for me. And
with this song, it's like they're doing something where they're
taking that genre and they're pulling it a little bit
(12:30):
towards the whole like new rock thing that was happening
at that time. With that, with that the Sonics, Yeah,
and the Sonics are like slightly trashier than than than
the peer group at this point, is especially the major
label pop punk stuff is at this point, this chorus
is undeniable, super duper catchy, well structured. I'm trying to
(12:51):
do all my chance he's up top because I have
a lot of other thoughts as well, but no do
I I am not confused about the peel of this song.
And to what I just said, they literally in this song,
the whole spirit of the song is the kind of
promise of pop as in popular punk, which is streamlining
(13:16):
and making approachable even just the concept of rebellion. They're
literally this is like perfectly streamlined Olympic athlete of a
rebellion song. We're gonna find We're not. We'll get into this.
I have a lot to say about this exact next sentence.
We're not the rich and the famous, but we're gonna
(13:36):
find them with you, and we're gonna get them. We're
just like you.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
We should rob their mansion.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, And I think that in that sense, it's a
perfectly executed like it's a its mission is clear and
its execution is perfect. And I think all of the
there's one part of the song structurally, which i'll get to,
an anti chance that I do not fuck with that
all but and and as usual, it's the bridge. But
the rest of the song is.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
We're bridge snobs. We were definitely bridge I'm.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Definitely a bridge snob. That's fine with me that I'll
ride or die with.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, I'm gonna kind of do a bridge from a
posey to a neiggie. So last episode I talked about
(14:32):
how there's this artist Jackson. She has this song about
Victoria's secret. Remember, and my point and my point that
a friend of mine changed my perspective was like, well,
for a younger generation, Jocelyn, Yeah, for younger generation. This
is there, This is the this is their first step
into being skeptical about certain things or looking into things, right.
(14:53):
And I would say that this is even more a
version of that. There's like there's this massive wealth issue
and like like this is ridiculous, like they should spend
a day or two in our shoes, right, like and
all right, that being said, my anti chancey is that
it's so hypocritical. I mean, they're married to the richest people.
(15:16):
They themselves are also very wealthy, like especially at this point.
And to say it's so disingenuous, disingenuine.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I think it's disin jasmin yen.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
It's disjasmine.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
From all, I think disingenuous was great.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
This should be the theme song to The Simple Life,
which was because it's got the thing of like I
would like to see them spend a day or two
to walk in someone else's shoes. That's the whole theme
of that. The Cole Richie Show where they did dirty
basically dirty jobs to like like working on a farm
and stuff. So it's it's it's they are talking about
(15:53):
that meta.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
It's meta. It is shout out to Zuck, sorry please, but.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, the the old the whole thing of Also, I
actually don't know that.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Sorry, I'm sorry. I love that you can just one
of my favorite things about this is that the craziest
shit I could do that just like you're just flawlessly ok. Yeah.
So one of the things about this sorry please, right,
that's thereful.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
There are times that I'm like, I'm like, I want
to live in it, but I'm also like, oh, hold on,
do we need to let's keep it moving? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, oh wait, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Sorry, And I'm like, so when he says about Rolling Stone,
does he mean the magazine right?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
All they do is piss and moan, right, the celebrities
that I don't even know how often they do. That's
so strange to even say that. But there, I don't know, it's.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Strange for this. Here's the thing that I think is like,
I don't know if this is Chancy anti Chance or neither.
I fully agree. This is a song where like the
premise of the song, it's almost like it's immediately disqualifying.
So it almost like makes it like hard to like
That's why I really wanted to front load the Chancy
because for the stuff again, better or worse, the stuff
(17:04):
that I actually care about as a listener of music
and as a person who like, this song is ridiculous.
It's like a totally ridiculous, almost self disqualifying song, which
so you don't have to separate out like its mission
statement as I said aesthetically, which they nail from its
mission statement topically, which is patently ludicrous. And so yes,
(17:30):
look do celebrities. I understand what they're saying when they
are talking about celebrities piss and moan. There is a
trope I guess that doesn't come from nowhere about like
how difficult the trade off in fame, champigre problems, Champi,
Champagne problems, Champagne Poppy at Champagne Poppy on Instagram, fuck
(17:58):
them up. This is just to say I do think
that is a thing. I also think it's hilarious that
they are connected to the people to whom they are
connected and that they in speaking about that thing, because
that is there's something in there that I'm like, how
are you reconciling those realities? But I also think it's
(18:21):
like it's really funny. This is actually leading me down
maybe a weird cull to sac but like when I
was twenty years old. Right, I love Radiohead, I love Nirvana,
I loved fight Club, I love Rage Against the Machine.
I love a lot of things that, like, I guess,
in a way, we're like a kind of corrective in
(18:43):
the mainstream, right, something that was there to represent what
is being talked about in these songs everything I just mentioned.
Radiohead and Nirvana were on major labels. Radiohead has been
on a major label for most of its career, and
the time it hasn't is only because after a certain
amount of time, they were afforded, literally afforded the material
opportunity to do whatever the hell they wanted with their
(19:03):
music because they'd made millions and millions of dollars on
major international record labels. Fight Club is a very subversive
set of ideas that starred very famous people and was
put out by a multinational film corporation or media corporation.
Now you can get into a series of conversations that
(19:24):
might be more suited for like some kind of like
leftist podcasts or philosoph philosophical podcast about the ultimate value
of any of that. If you are bringing those ideas,
it's maybe like for people like me, they helped catalyze
a series of ideas. At the same time, the ideas
inherent in fight Club or OK Computer or whatever, they
(19:46):
were also being propagated by millionaires on multi national, core
billion dollar corporations, So on one hand, you could even
make the argument they were kind of like co opting
these kind of radical ideas. Now, I don't think this
song is operating at the level of any of that
shit was it was, But I do think I've had
(20:08):
this weird re reconsideration of my relationship to all of
those things as I've aged, and it's part of why
and I listen, i'd apologize, but I'm not sorry. It's
part of why my internalizations of the stories of people
like Kurt Cobaine or Amy Winehouse or Elliott Smith or whoever,
Shinead O'Connor have changed with age two. It's like it's
(20:31):
sort of that I'm like, oh yeah, right, Like maybe
the reason but besides substance abuse, family of origin, trauma
and whatever else, is that reconciling some of the things
those people knew were kind of fucked up with the
realities they were in choosing to be in is actually,
at the end of the day, kind of maybe an
impossible project. If you're looking at it squarely, So why
(20:53):
do I bring that up? This song's I'm operating on
the level of any of that, But they're flirting with
it right topically, it's still like you're they were playing
this song on the van's warped tour. Uh, and then
like I'm sure there's there's this, there's no teeth to it.
They're not really advocating for anything here, and in fact,
(21:13):
they're so confused that the whole second verse is about
like O J. Simpson and fucking Marry and Barry, which
I'm like, they're not like, yeah, look, I don't know.
Look I don't want to get pretty in trouble. I
think OJ did it. I'm pretty sure OJ did it,
you know. And if not, OJ was a very confusing,
seemingly fucked up got a lot of other directions, right,
(21:35):
great fucking jay Z line is that story of OJ song?
First line, OJ said, I'm not black im OJ? Okay, okay,
but like you know, this is not like this isn't
even the things I was just talking about in their
complexity fight club and and and and okay computer, This
is just like two kids who are kind of like,
(21:57):
you know, they're doing a good job. What's the word
cop playing agit prop? Certainly not raised against the machine,
and uh, you know, I don't know to me, who
are like who is the weed and who is the they? Is?
What's really my problem with this song. They're making a
lot of assumptions about who they these two people are
(22:18):
actually like aligned with and who they are on the
other side of a line from and I think that
the song buckles under those contradictions. For this admittedly maybe
overthinking listener, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
It's interesting to think of that this on TRL because
it fits squirrely.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
In fact, I watched the music video and Chris Kirkpatrick
is in it and Kyle Gass is also Is he
really the end of this song? I give a huge
chancey too. And I really liked how they went up
on it lifestyles, Oh.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
The little chord turnaround, I agree.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And fact that nice.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
It almost what I should say about that. It almost
fixes my issues with the bridge, which is a non
existent sheet of a bridge, because I like when a
song does that at the end, it's almost like a
bridge at the end when you make those changes.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I'm a big fan of that little coda. So yeah,
I'm with you. So the only thing I'll say about
the bridge, which they're in the music video, there's a
Kyle Gas and Chris ker Patrick's skit that happens.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Oh okay, what happens.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
It's like they're in a courtroom and like who's rich
and who's famous? Good? Good good. Charlotte is in trouble
for speaking out against their giving middle fingers in the
courtroom and Kyle Gas is like playing this like we
don't get it, we don't get your music. And Chris
kork Patrick is like he's like on the stand, He's like,
(23:48):
look at the way they dress, like they're like you know,
and it's just like hots and stuff. It's just like
they are freaks, like tongue in cheek. But the skit
doesn't go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
What's the end of the skit.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
The end of this get is a person stands up
and it is like we find the uh, the defendants,
and then it doesn't cut to them saying yeah, not guilty.
It's just them walking out of the court reservoir.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Oh so we find the defendants. Maybe what the the
sentencing was was that they had to dress like like
like like famous rich people's.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, but they still had spies.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Oh well, maybe it was that they chose that and
that they were still like the look. And then he
was like, Chris Kirkpatrick, you could get your ass kicked.
Eminem's another one with this too. That's a fascinating like
this time period. Eminem's like on t r L making
fun of all these other people, but like the real
(24:50):
slim Shady which is infectious and and like this it's
like perfect that it's stated mission. But it's like, is
it is it any less a bubblegum pop song than
like Bye Bye Bye. It's basically the only difference is
that it's hip hop and and that point was still
you know, the the the real like white hot ascendency,
(25:10):
like hip hop as the primary mover and shaker in
popular culture. But like it's not like you're listening, it's
not like, uh, it's not even like the real slim
Shadies like to Pimp a Butterfly or something like that,
like where you're like bring in like weird jazz influenced
you know, like it's like it's a pop song and
it's a great pop song.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
It is it is, it is. I mean what I
don't think in sync would would go through this territory
right of like lifestyles of the rich and famous. Although
like Weezer did, right, Weezer did Beverly Hills, right, which
is this tongue in cheek thing, and they've they live
they live in Beverly Hills and they're they're California guys. Now,
oh they always guess not always. I don't other things
(25:50):
this this though. I remember people saying again, I'm just
like Pat Plowing. I remember people saying that they started
as like a real roots kind of like.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Good Charlotte did.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yes, Yes, that they were. They were coming up in
a scene like that Vay seen at lower level, and
they got to this point. So this must be their
maladroit right for Weezer or whatever, like or they're sant
anger push it out, like push it out, they're trying
to or the American right there, American idiot where they're
like trying to do something. I think I bet you
(26:24):
American idiot had a lot more to say than this.
I know that well. But I think like they probably
land the metaphors a little stronger than this.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I think that's probably true. And I feel like, you know,
I also feel like he was Look, I'm not like
a card carrying Green Day fan. But I do think
he's like a great songwriter, you know what I mean,
Like whether or not I always love the uh the end,
I don't know even the right way to end that sentence.
(26:55):
It's not like I don't really hear Green Day songs
and be like that's bad, you know what I mean.
I just don't know if it's exactly But there's some
Green Day songs that I think are like great, And
I think he has a real awareness of he's a
smart pop songwriter. I think, I totally think, and so
I think when he puts his mind to something like
(27:16):
that project, like I remember at the time of American
Idiot thinking it was actually pretty cool along the lines
of what we were discussing earlier. I don't really think I
ever owned the record, but I feel like the idea
that in the Teeth of the Bush thing, some like
a huge band was putting out songs that were explicitly
like kind of like I'm thumbing their nose at that
(27:38):
and inviting their audience to do the same. Now, if
you sit there with a fine tooth quom and go
through those songs, there is there is a question there is.
It's what's brilliant about it is it is intentionally it
is not rage against the machine, where that guy's concerns
are hyper specific and he is being hyper literal in
telling you about them. Their genius, of course, was that
(27:58):
they figured out how to like Trojan Horse songs about
like Leonard Peltier and the Sandinistas and the Zapatistas and
every other thing and like income inequality all the rest
of it into like massive led Zeppelin by way of
hardcore songs that like a bunch of people would just
go nuts for and then like later might be like, wait,
(28:19):
what is he talking about? You know, I don't know
if with the Green Day stuff, it feels like that
that record the times I've heard American idiot songs later,
the concerns it's more thematic to me than it is
like policy oriented or you know what I mean. That's
not a criticism, that's that you know. I remember Bob Dylan.
There's a famous story he says to Phil Oaks, great
(28:43):
folk songwriter, but it was a very much like a
topical lefty love me, I'm a liberal and all this
kind of stuff, And Dylan says to himt one point
like you're not a songwriter, you're a journalist, And it
was meant to be like very and I think it
was very cutting to him because I think they all
held him in such high regard that him sort of
saying like, yeah, you just like you just read the
(29:05):
paper and write songs, and it's kind of.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Right, you're Do you think he meant it as he
didn't agree with him, or that he's being too close.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I think he meant it more like it that well,
he sort of seems like he might be like a
world class asshole Bob Dylan.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
But oh, I agree, I agree, But I know, like
if he meant it as like, hey, you're not doing
this effectively, like you know, you could do it a
little bit more subtle and get your point across farther
than doing it so clunky, you're basically I.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Think maybe I think that at that point it was set.
What when he's saying that, it's when he's sort of
started his apostasy from uh, what's it called topical songwriting.
He's basically decided like after my back pages and you know,
the band, he starts playing band music. He's kind of like,
(29:53):
I don't do that anymore. So it was almost his
way of being like, like, I think he was a
dude who was he was always playing chess like people
were probably like phil Oaks is the new Dylan, and
Dylan was sort of like I'm sure didn't like that
and was like, and phil Oaks, those songs are great songs.
You know, I don't agree. He was a journalist. I
(30:14):
think he actually wrote about that stuff with a lot
of soul and sensitivity, and also so to a lot
of journalists. But anyway, this is all just to say again,
I do I like what you're saying, because I think
it when I'm saying maybe I'm being a little uncharitable
when I say it's invalidating. Like, look, people exist in
the contexts in which they exist. And if this band
(30:34):
was like, hey, we're gonna put like a song on,
we have an opportunity to get on TRL and like
have a song that's about like how ridiculous the sort
of like infrastructure of celebrity is, well, that's kind of cool.
Maybe for me there's some kind of tension and also
participating in the infrastructure of celebrity while doing that. But
(30:55):
then it's like that's a more naughty question, like what
do you want? Do you want? Fiona app getting up
at the VMAs and being like this is all stupid,
I personally do. I kind of like them, And then
I like when someone like her like never went to
something like that again, that to me is actually like
coolest because the person's being like, you know, the person
has a front row seat, they're in it, and they're like,
(31:18):
you know, this is like total bullshit, right, and then
they're like and I'm just never gonna come again. I
kind of for me, And maybe that's childish Holden cough fieldish.
I don't know, but there's a part of me that
like I love that, and yeah, but everybody can do it.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
I know. Another thought I have is like there are
times that it just I missed the window of time
that it would be controversial, like like for example, like
I'm not really a big sex Pistols fan. I'm not
a Johnny fans and that that that that that thing
he did.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
After Public Image Limited Public.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I can't believe that. I think it's the weirdest ship.
I don't like it at all, Like that's like me
being like I don't and I'm embarrassed to watch it.
I hate it, but I remember being a kid and
being like even like younger in like high school and
rolling my eyes at anarchy. Ye okay, I am in
(32:31):
that case. It's like I I was like, oh wow,
that's I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Because you were going like this, I want to see it,
will do it for me too, but it's not working.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
That's because I'm in zoom. Sorry, but I remember feeling
that way, and even then, and probably at the time
it was controversial to say that he's that they're.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Totally and to be on the BBC like being high
and drunk and swearing and.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, sure sure, and so I give it credit for that,
and I really I give yeah totally and even American Idiot,
I give it a lot of credit because they went
out on that was that was a tough time, like
in like a sort of post role to speak out
like that was you know, there's only a couple of
bands that did it, and someone over people somehow of
raging against machine went over so many people's heads that
like people are still figuring out that their poetical which
(33:23):
is crazy. The name gave American Idiot was directly like
that was that. I think they're almost some of the
most direct lyrics that there could be for you know,
like a leftist. I'm this is what, this is how
I believe, like I don't like this political regime, and
(33:44):
I give that that credit, even though I also think
it's a little bit of an eye roll now looking
back or just certain things are like okay, but this
I can't.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
This isn't sophisticated in any way. And I don't and
I don't When I say sophisticated, I don't mean like
swirling a you know, a glass of you know, some
expensive wine while you the port. I mean like it
it's unsubtle in the wrong ways. Don't want to be
(34:15):
an American idiot whatever. They're like. What's brilliant about that
is that it's specifically unspecific. He's not saying like, don't
want to codify endless wars in the Middle East, for
like he's saying like, uh, he's kind of finding a
way to avoid being specific, but is also being specific
in positioning himself as opposed to a kind of thoughtlessness
(34:39):
he found running rampant in his country. This is just
like it's so it's it feels a little bit like
a kind of bait thing to me, Like they kind
of like I feel like it was a way too.
There's something that actually you bring up the sex pistols,
it's interesting, there's something about it. It's like it is
(35:00):
like like with time, all things kind of like somewhat
these things kind of like rhyme, repeat but degrade. Like
this was a way to try to like use those
same platforms, those labels, MTV, all these other outlets to
sort of like they kind of I feel like that
was the marketing plan in some way for I'm sure
(35:21):
the meeting about this band and this single at the
label with the publicist and the radio rep was about
like how to position them as like the bad boys
in this and like once you're in that territory, you're
probably not the bad boy. You're probably not or if
(35:43):
you are, like what does that even mean? Like you know,
it's like the thing about the sex pistols is like you, yeah, okay,
it's cool that there were some people to say saying
the word anarchy on the BBC, but at the end
of it was like, well, actually it was just like
a bunch of kids who didn't really know what the
hell they were doing, who being positioned by like two
(36:03):
masterminds that were like fashion industry visionaries, like do you
know what I mean, Like, you get to a certain
point you're like, what's actually radical about this at all?
And again not that I think it's when you introduce
this stuff, you are allowed to ask these questions. When
this stuff comes, when you make the choice as an
artist and as a institution, we're able to bring this
(36:24):
stuff into the frame, well, then you're allowed to be
interrogated about it. One of the things that I think
is so cool about what I thought was so cool
with Rage before they got back together, is that Zach
sort of who was in a lot of ways like
the leftist left most left leftist in that band, was like, Oh,
(36:48):
this project doesn't actually serve my mission statement, Like I
actually want this shit to happen, and our band has
done nothing to make that happen. So I'm just gonna
not do it anymore. And I think and then he
like went and like lived with the Zapatistas down it
(37:10):
or like you know these he was like, that's he's
about it, that guy, And there's and I'm not saying
I'm not fucking out in the streets doing it, you
know what I mean? Like I have a very complicated
internal relationship to my own sort of political identity. But
I always admired that, and then you know, at some
point maybe he was like, it's I need Whether it's
as simple, he's allowed to be like I need some money,
(37:32):
he's also allowed to be like, I'm miss playing music
with those people, and he's also allowed to be like, well,
maybe I'll try again, you know what I mean. And
I thought it was cool that they came back and
did that. But that guy I believe has the courage
of his convictions. I don't even know that there's convictions
to have courage about in this song. I think it's
just like a bit of role playing. And you know,
(37:54):
maybe that's not for me to say, but I uh,
you know, it's also a very approachable song. Great chorus,
Yeah no, no tenacious D in the half of the
half of the D in.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
The VID half the D. I want to go back
a little bit what you said, because I think I
think we're dancing around a sort of the way to
sort of make a message, and it's weird to do
something like this. Probably, I don't know, maybe ten years
or eight years after, maybe longer. Shenad O'Connor on SNL, Right,
(38:27):
ten years, yeah, ten years, right, A moment like that
is so is trying to raise awareness. Like even still today,
people are like, that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
You know when you see it, it's shocking. I watched
that like once a year to remind myself of it's
the coolest thing I've ever seen somebody do in that
context ever, and real stakes, real steaks.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
She got people, and people will go people. So there's
there's a lot of camps. There's people who see that
and go, I can't fucking believe that, and they don't
want to know why she did it. And there are
people who are like, that's interesting, I want to see why,
and then they make that decision for themselves to look
it up and see how they feel about why. And
I think that's that's what you should set out to
do with with like art that is trying to raise awareness. Right.
(39:13):
And I'll say this, I sometimes talk about your music,
but there's been a lot of times in my life
that you've song lyrics you wrote have raised awareness to
topics and that I'm like, oh, I didn't really know
I felt that way, but now I feel that way,
and I oh, I'm so I'm going to look into
this a little bit more, and I think you've done
such a good Yeah, but from all the way from
when I first heard your music, like it was like
(39:34):
Whistling Dixie and songs that are I'm like, I didn't
know I even felt that way, but I feel the
same way. And I think like there is such a
it's a missed opportunity that if you really did want
to say something about wealth inequality.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, like what is this even? But that's the thing.
I'm like, what is this even saying? It's like saying
like we're good, We're not rich people. We're not celebrities.
I know we are rich people in our celebrities, but
we're not really and we're with you guys, and let's
go get them, like this is nothing. This isn't a thing,
this isn't a state thing.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
So get them. The funniest part, like it's so funny,
it's like with it. Everyone's like, yeah, let's get them.
And then they're like in the house.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah yeah, like wait, that's exactly and maybe this is
a good place we used to wrap it up, like
I think you actually in in Look when someone's like,
can't we just like things, can't we just have fun?
We totally. Can you've totally. There's a million things I
just like and that are just fun. This is trying
to have its cake and eat it too. It wants
(40:32):
to be a fun, approachable, sugary pop punk song that
also wants to wear the clothes of saying something but
doesn't actually say anything. It's much better. It's just a
sugary pop punk song with like some cool sounds in it.
Like that's a much better thing. Once you actually get
in bed with the lyrics, you're like, oh, this is bullshit.
(40:53):
And when you put it next to something like like
I could do an hour on the sinad O'Connor sn thing,
it's the thing. It to me, it is like the
thing against which every fucking thing like this should be
measured forever. Because it more or less ended her like
(41:14):
that degree of her. She continued to be on a
major label. She continued to be a very successful artist,
very venerated artist, somebody who people but she also was
somebody who for the rest of her career had to
like deal with the fallout of that.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
People looked at her as a ticking time bomb of
like what like, oh, I don't trust her, what is
she going to do? Right, Like there's like even even
if people agreed with her, they're like, look, there's brands
involved in this. Like people are like, that's a liability, yo.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
And the thing that I'll always remember about that and
we should is like the next week, Madonna was the
musical guest or something, or I think Joe Pesh was
the host, and he said we should. He would smack
her in the face if he saw her, and then
Madonna ripped up a picture of Joey. But ifuco like this,
look that up. If you don't know what that was,
(42:03):
it was like the Long Island Lolita, some trashy tabloid
story and to fight the real enemy and like kind
of like condemned her.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
It was like and this is like, you know, noted
feminist icon, you know, Madonna, and I just I remember
thinking like, wow, she really And the other side of that, though,
is people like Bikini Kill, legions and generations of punk people,
especially female identifying people, seeing that moment and being like,
(42:32):
like it activated I just got goosebumps. It like activated
a whole bunch of people to be like, oh, yo,
stand for what you actually believe in, because like this
person just did it. Live in front of millions of people,
and if you watch that video, the audience is it
is very rare that this is literally true. They are
(42:52):
stunned into silence. It's totally silent, and I just can't
think of something that's more. And also, by the way,
not to be she was right fifteen years early, right
about something that became like a global scandal and a
OSCAR winning industrially codified fucking movie. She was fifteen years
(43:17):
ahead of everybody on that. So anyway, that being said,
a nice song by good Charlotte, very fun tune, but
it doesn't pass the Shanade test for O k D.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
But I will listen to it and laugh and it
on that level too. Okay, greats so fun
Give it a chance, Give it a chance, Give it
a chance.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Good morning, give it.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
A chance, Give it a chance, Give it a chance,
Give it a chance, good morning, Give it a You
want to give it a chance, Give it a chance,
give it a chance. Just I feel drunk with power
when I have the song and you don't have.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
It, And are you drunk with alcohol? It's twelve eleven pm.
I don't I want to want to pull the curtain
back too much. But maybe this becomes a little different
kind of chance you. Maybe Casey's got to give rehabit Chancey.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I took, I took, I took Edie's space cake. I
love that this is becoming a runner.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Protected Services has so much a yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
There's three different episodes where the defendant mentions explicitly drugging
his underage child.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah no, so yeah, this is well, actually all right,
I'll find a transition from that. You know, if you were,
if you were really rich, you might.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I'm a rich No, it's not that would be.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
That jumped to very No, I think.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
If rich rock of failure. Okay, sorry sorry, sorry ahead.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Sometimes you know rich people, I don't you know they
might they might not notice when their kids are this
sort of lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I was yet I had it. It's a lifestyle, and
it's in the famous I have to be I have
to be a little.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, okay, you gotta be careful here.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, it's I kind of love it. I'm kind of
welcoming it. No, there's a there's a degree or two
of of of separation. Uh uh, I'm into it. This Actually,
this is actually liberating for me.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, I'll gonna be honest with you. Like there, I
was between a lot of songs and and there are
I want to get into this category in following podcast
or you know, later podcasts where.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Like hot topic emo, is that the category? Yeah, yeah,
white belt category.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Of I like this song. The world doesn't like this song,
and I want to defend it. But also I understand
the problems with it. So it's like I've already given
this a chance, but I want the world to give
it a chance. Right, That's that's the evolution totally.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I also just think, again, I want to point something out.
I'm going to point this out probably every three episodes
of our show, and maybe every three times I talk
about it on the internet. Again, every single song we
do this idea that the world doesn't like it will
be it's a very specific definition of the world and doesn't.
These are all songs that were like enormously successful songs.
(02:58):
Massive is normous. These songs were is normous and so yeah,
it's like, you know, lifestyles are rich and the famous
was like literally that song was like on TRL and shit,
so you can't It's like, you know, I do want
to say one thing quick before we get into it.
Someone recently that I a person who is an is
(03:19):
an audience member who I've known for a while from
my own little music world, I think listening to our
podcast reached out to me. I was like, so, do
you just like not like anything pop cultural? And I
was like, no, that's not it at all. I like
a lot of it. But then it prompted me to reflect,
like are you a snob? Because I feel like I've
(03:40):
known snobs my whole life, from like fourteen getting into
like whatever independent music culture. There was always the gatekeepers
that were like there to make me feel and I'm like,
what's so funny about that concept is that I actually
feel like my music tastes are so pedestrian and predictable.
It's like, how can you be a snob if you
like three bands? You talk about Elliott Smith and Irvana
(04:02):
and like Bob Dylan or something like all of the like,
there's not a person in there. I guess Elliott's closest
to like a little bit of a yeah, like hidden Treasure,
But the guy was nominated for an Oscar. It's not
like he's a secret so.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Soundtrack artist, like, yeah, he has got songs on soundtracks that.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, exactly. It's like, so I'm like, no, it's not
that I don't like anything pop cultural, nor is it
that I'm a snob. It's that I like two bands.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
But I was thinking about that. It's funny you mentioned
it because I was thinking about this too, and I
think I am a snob. But I believe that everyone
is right, like everyone knows what they like exactly. But
you know, I think I think there are people who
are louder about it. And yeah, in doing this podcast,
you know we are. Of course we're being louder about.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
It by definition you were talking into microphones.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, but I do think that our you know, going
back to our ethos, which is like trying to be
positive through this or just trying to change our own
experience or open our horizons a little bit or.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Changed like national policy about all manner of different you know, initiatives.
And so I want to announce my candidacy and my
VP is okay, see so sorry.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
How can we be snobs when we do that?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
How can we be running for Prez?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Prez Hilton? Which is a similar era to this.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Song vid was she in the vid?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Oh I was? I said, Perez Hilton. Paris is married
to one of the Charlottes.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Paris is married to Perez Hilton.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
No, no, no, no, Paris Hilton is not married. No
sorry sorry, Richie Nicole rich Richie Nicole Richie is married
to one of them. And then I think Cameron Diaz
is married to the other.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Good for the brothers. Also, you know Guy Ritchie is married.
Guy Ritchie is married to Waylan. Uh what Madden, the
other Madden brother. There's like many It's like.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
It's Madonna's husband, Madonna's X is married to Marlon Wayans
Jennings Madden.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, check it out. It's all on Wikipedia.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
That's the segue into the song.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah. Okay, So one thing is I'm pretty sure this
song is post is this it? So, I think two
thousand and two. Yeah, so it's a year after that
(06:41):
that thing hives the I Don't want to Get Free,
that Vines record. It's that like new rock thing is
happening this the White Stripes are starting to percolate, pre
Jack White becoming like Vincent Price mixed with someone who
accidentally writes like the soccer anthem of all time, which
is an amazing turn. But when they were like, you
(07:02):
know these that whole thing is happening, this music for
a pop punk band. The sound of this song is
actually like a little more abrasive and a little less
like kind of candy ass than some of that stuff.
Sounded like the drums have real the drums are doing
that like last night, which was doing what's it called
(07:27):
Tom Petty American Girl. But it's got that thing which
is a little departure. It lives in the same energetic space,
but it's that thing about like how there's a difference
between like pop punk and punk pop. Super Chunk is
a punk pop band. Japandroids is a punk pop band.
The Thermals are a punk pop band. And yes, I'll
(07:47):
say it aspects of Nirvana. It's a punk pop band.
Then there's pop punk, which is to me, something that
is defined by and this isn't negative, it's just a
little bit more like there's something a little bit more
kind of caffeinated and like it's a little bit less
(08:07):
aggressive maybe than it is like caffeinated is what I
would say. And there's almost something and a lot of
it that's like, you know, a little like whether it's
Green Day, whether it's Blinkwin eighty two, where there's there's
something that's like by nature meant to be a little
bit less serious and a little bit more like sophomoric
or something like that. Yeah, and now are there is
there a real significant difference If you sat someone down
(08:29):
who'd never listened to this music, If you sat someone
down and played them like a super hyper enough by
super chunk and this, they might be like, oh, it's
like basically lives in the same world. But I think
there's like a significant if you are in these worlds,
it feels pretty significant.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It's vocals. No, I think there is a difference, and
I think it's vocals, And I think that Green Day
really toes the line of those both to both those
two things, especially like if we just look at Dookie, right, Yes,
I think it. I think what it influenced took took
more liberties with that, like sophomoric thing, yeah, even vocal
quality of your your Billy Joe Armstrong of like yeah, yeah,
(09:05):
you know like his like that too, who are you right?
Like that's where that came from. But I don't think
Billy Joel and Joe Armstrong, I don't think he was
really he was influenced by you know, sex pistols and clash,
I think, and he was channeling that. But if you
listen to the demos, like they recently released the demos
of of Doolittle, it's so cool to see he wrote
(09:29):
these really good songs.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, and like and like if they just they.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Just cleaned them up a little. It's not like they
went into the studio with a producer. No, and the
Dookie record like it's fast and furious, but it's but
it's it's it's really like the songs are there.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
That record has like grit. The sound is gritty. It's
not it's not American Idiot, which by that point is
like built for and that's not a criticism either. That
was intentionally built for radio dominance. Whereas Dookie was built
for like a slightly cleaned up version of what this
(10:07):
like kind of like you're right, British punk by way
of ap Ivy and uh and and Bay Area SKA
and punk thing. But I think I do think you're
right to iterate that as you get into blinkin eighty
two and then as you get into this league of
bands and those.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Other bands you mentioned, like thermals like they to me
don't have that same like vocal like lifestyles of the rich,
and it's not I don't even I'm not coming I'm
not even coming forward. I'm just you know, saying that
there's a different observation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's because there's
a place for it, and I there's a there's a
bunch of blank win too. There's a lot of pop
punky even like once in a while, like a like
(10:45):
a simple Plan song comes on, I'm like, I feel
so nostalgic for it that I'm like I could completely
separate how you know. Some of it is a little vapid, right,
It's a little hollow of songwriting, and this song, I
think at its worst has that. But it's popcorn, right,
It's just it's it's light, and it's fun sometimes and
(11:05):
and I do like it.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
No doubt, no doubt. And it's so it's so likable,
and it's so approachable, and it's so digestible, and it's
also what what it's what's brilliant about it and what
is what why it spoke to millions and millions and
millions and millions of especially suburban kids, is that it's
(11:27):
sort of like the kind it's like a kind of
rebellion that is like very digestible. There's like a rebelliousness
in you know, in that it's fast, in that the
guitars are distorted, in that the guy's got a kind
of like adenoidal nasal vocal quality that's a little like snotty,
like a bratty kid kind of a thing. But it's
(11:48):
not like actually like you know, uh, challenging you in
any way about like any sort of like radical ideas
or is not roca like no no, or even aesthetic.
It's not like it's it's not even like it's like
a Steve Albini record or something where you're like, oh
my god, like there's something you're hearing in the sounds
that you're like, like PJ. Harvey or something where you're like,
(12:10):
holy shit, like that's kind of like or or Trent
Reznor or someone like that. We mentioned him in a
recent episode where there's like something in the Sonics that
are actually a little bit like h anyway that is
to that is that is all there for me. And
with this song, it's like they're doing something where they're
taking that genre and they're pulling it a little bit
(12:30):
towards the whole like new rock thing that was happening
at that time. With that, with that the Sonics, Yeah,
and the Sonics are like slightly trashier than than than
the peer group at this point, is especially the major
label pop punk stuff is at this point, this chorus
is undeniable, super duper catchy, well structured. I'm trying to
(12:51):
do all my chance he's up top because I have
a lot of other thoughts as well, but no do
I I am not confused about the peel of this song.
And to what I just said, they literally in this song,
the whole spirit of the song is the kind of
promise of pop as in popular punk, which is streamlining
(13:16):
and making approachable even just the concept of rebellion. They're
literally this is like perfectly streamlined Olympic athlete of a
rebellion song. We're gonna find We're not. We'll get into this.
I have a lot to say about this exact next sentence.
We're not the rich and the famous, but we're gonna
(13:36):
find them with you, and we're gonna get them. We're
just like you.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
We should rob their mansion.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, And I think that in that sense, it's a
perfectly executed like it's a its mission is clear and
its execution is perfect. And I think all of the
there's one part of the song structurally, which i'll get to,
an anti chance that I do not fuck with that
all but and and as usual, it's the bridge. But
the rest of the song is.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
We're bridge snobs. We were definitely bridge I'm.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Definitely a bridge snob. That's fine with me that I'll
ride or die with.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, I'm gonna kind of do a bridge from a
posey to a neiggie. So last episode I talked about
(14:32):
how there's this artist Jackson. She has this song about
Victoria's secret. Remember, and my point and my point that
a friend of mine changed my perspective was like, well,
for a younger generation, Jocelyn, Yeah, for younger generation. This
is there, This is the this is their first step
into being skeptical about certain things or looking into things, right.
(14:53):
And I would say that this is even more a
version of that. There's like there's this massive wealth issue
and like like this is ridiculous, like they should spend
a day or two in our shoes, right, like and
all right, that being said, my anti chancey is that
it's so hypocritical. I mean, they're married to the richest people.
(15:16):
They themselves are also very wealthy, like especially at this point.
And to say it's so disingenuous, disingenuine.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I think it's disin jasmin yen.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
It's disjasmine.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
From all, I think disingenuous was great.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
This should be the theme song to The Simple Life,
which was because it's got the thing of like I
would like to see them spend a day or two
to walk in someone else's shoes. That's the whole theme
of that. The Cole Richie Show where they did dirty
basically dirty jobs to like like working on a farm
and stuff. So it's it's it's they are talking about
(15:53):
that meta.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
It's meta. It is shout out to Zuck, sorry please, but.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, the the old the whole thing of Also, I
actually don't know that.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Sorry, I'm sorry. I love that you can just one
of my favorite things about this is that the craziest
shit I could do that just like you're just flawlessly ok. Yeah.
So one of the things about this sorry please, right,
that's thereful.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
There are times that I'm like, I'm like, I want
to live in it, but I'm also like, oh, hold on,
do we need to let's keep it moving? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, oh wait, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Sorry, And I'm like, so when he says about Rolling Stone,
does he mean the magazine right?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
All they do is piss and moan, right, the celebrities
that I don't even know how often they do. That's
so strange to even say that. But there, I don't know, it's.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Strange for this. Here's the thing that I think is like,
I don't know if this is Chancy anti Chance or neither.
I fully agree. This is a song where like the
premise of the song, it's almost like it's immediately disqualifying.
So it almost like makes it like hard to like
That's why I really wanted to front load the Chancy
because for the stuff again, better or worse, the stuff
(17:04):
that I actually care about as a listener of music
and as a person who like, this song is ridiculous.
It's like a totally ridiculous, almost self disqualifying song, which
so you don't have to separate out like its mission
statement as I said aesthetically, which they nail from its
mission statement topically, which is patently ludicrous. And so yes,
(17:30):
look do celebrities. I understand what they're saying when they
are talking about celebrities piss and moan. There is a
trope I guess that doesn't come from nowhere about like
how difficult the trade off in fame, champigre problems, Champi,
Champagne problems, Champagne Poppy at Champagne Poppy on Instagram, fuck
(17:58):
them up. This is just to say I do think
that is a thing. I also think it's hilarious that
they are connected to the people to whom they are
connected and that they in speaking about that thing, because
that is there's something in there that I'm like, how
are you reconciling those realities? But I also think it's
(18:21):
like it's really funny. This is actually leading me down
maybe a weird cull to sac but like when I
was twenty years old. Right, I love Radiohead, I love Nirvana,
I loved fight Club, I love Rage Against the Machine.
I love a lot of things that, like, I guess,
in a way, we're like a kind of corrective in
(18:43):
the mainstream, right, something that was there to represent what
is being talked about in these songs everything I just mentioned.
Radiohead and Nirvana were on major labels. Radiohead has been
on a major label for most of its career, and
the time it hasn't is only because after a certain
amount of time, they were afforded, literally afforded the material
opportunity to do whatever the hell they wanted with their
(19:03):
music because they'd made millions and millions of dollars on
major international record labels. Fight Club is a very subversive
set of ideas that starred very famous people and was
put out by a multinational film corporation or media corporation.
Now you can get into a series of conversations that
(19:24):
might be more suited for like some kind of like
leftist podcasts or philosoph philosophical podcast about the ultimate value
of any of that. If you are bringing those ideas,
it's maybe like for people like me, they helped catalyze
a series of ideas. At the same time, the ideas
inherent in fight Club or OK Computer or whatever, they
(19:46):
were also being propagated by millionaires on multi national, core
billion dollar corporations, So on one hand, you could even
make the argument they were kind of like co opting
these kind of radical ideas. Now, I don't think this
song is operating at the level of any of that
shit was it was, But I do think I've had
(20:08):
this weird re reconsideration of my relationship to all of
those things as I've aged, and it's part of why
and I listen, i'd apologize, but I'm not sorry. It's
part of why my internalizations of the stories of people
like Kurt Cobaine or Amy Winehouse or Elliott Smith or whoever,
Shinead O'Connor have changed with age two. It's like it's
(20:31):
sort of that I'm like, oh yeah, right, Like maybe
the reason but besides substance abuse, family of origin, trauma
and whatever else, is that reconciling some of the things
those people knew were kind of fucked up with the
realities they were in choosing to be in is actually,
at the end of the day, kind of maybe an
impossible project. If you're looking at it squarely, So why
(20:53):
do I bring that up? This song's I'm operating on
the level of any of that, But they're flirting with
it right topically, it's still like you're they were playing
this song on the van's warped tour. Uh, and then
like I'm sure there's there's this, there's no teeth to it.
They're not really advocating for anything here, and in fact,
(21:13):
they're so confused that the whole second verse is about
like O J. Simpson and fucking Marry and Barry, which
I'm like, they're not like, yeah, look, I don't know.
Look I don't want to get pretty in trouble. I
think OJ did it. I'm pretty sure OJ did it,
you know. And if not, OJ was a very confusing,
seemingly fucked up got a lot of other directions, right,
(21:35):
great fucking jay Z line is that story of OJ song?
First line, OJ said, I'm not black im OJ? Okay, okay,
but like you know, this is not like this isn't
even the things I was just talking about in their
complexity fight club and and and and okay computer, This
is just like two kids who are kind of like,
(21:57):
you know, they're doing a good job. What's the word
cop playing agit prop? Certainly not raised against the machine,
and uh, you know, I don't know to me, who
are like who is the weed and who is the they? Is?
What's really my problem with this song. They're making a
lot of assumptions about who they these two people are
(22:18):
actually like aligned with and who they are on the
other side of a line from and I think that
the song buckles under those contradictions. For this admittedly maybe
overthinking listener, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
It's interesting to think of that this on TRL because
it fits squirrely.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
In fact, I watched the music video and Chris Kirkpatrick
is in it and Kyle Gass is also Is he
really the end of this song? I give a huge
chancey too. And I really liked how they went up
on it lifestyles, Oh.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
The little chord turnaround, I agree.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And fact that nice.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
It almost what I should say about that. It almost
fixes my issues with the bridge, which is a non
existent sheet of a bridge, because I like when a
song does that at the end, it's almost like a
bridge at the end when you make those changes.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I'm a big fan of that little coda. So yeah,
I'm with you. So the only thing I'll say about
the bridge, which they're in the music video, there's a
Kyle Gas and Chris ker Patrick's skit that happens.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Oh okay, what happens.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
It's like they're in a courtroom and like who's rich
and who's famous? Good? Good good. Charlotte is in trouble
for speaking out against their giving middle fingers in the
courtroom and Kyle Gas is like playing this like we
don't get it, we don't get your music. And Chris
kork Patrick is like he's like on the stand, He's like,
(23:48):
look at the way they dress, like they're like you know,
and it's just like hots and stuff. It's just like
they are freaks, like tongue in cheek. But the skit
doesn't go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
What's the end of the skit.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
The end of this get is a person stands up
and it is like we find the uh, the defendants,
and then it doesn't cut to them saying yeah, not guilty.
It's just them walking out of the court reservoir.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Oh so we find the defendants. Maybe what the the
sentencing was was that they had to dress like like
like like famous rich people's.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, but they still had spies.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Oh well, maybe it was that they chose that and
that they were still like the look. And then he
was like, Chris Kirkpatrick, you could get your ass kicked.
Eminem's another one with this too. That's a fascinating like
this time period. Eminem's like on t r L making
fun of all these other people, but like the real
(24:50):
slim Shady which is infectious and and like this it's
like perfect that it's stated mission. But it's like, is
it is it any less a bubblegum pop song than
like Bye Bye Bye. It's basically the only difference is
that it's hip hop and and that point was still
you know, the the the real like white hot ascendency,
(25:10):
like hip hop as the primary mover and shaker in
popular culture. But like it's not like you're listening, it's
not like, uh, it's not even like the real slim
Shadies like to Pimp a Butterfly or something like that,
like where you're like bring in like weird jazz influenced
you know, like it's like it's a pop song and
it's a great pop song.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
It is it is, it is. I mean what I
don't think in sync would would go through this territory
right of like lifestyles of the rich and famous. Although
like Weezer did, right, Weezer did Beverly Hills, right, which
is this tongue in cheek thing, and they've they live
they live in Beverly Hills and they're they're California guys. Now,
oh they always guess not always. I don't other things
(25:50):
this this though. I remember people saying again, I'm just
like Pat Plowing. I remember people saying that they started
as like a real roots kind of like.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Good Charlotte did.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yes, Yes, that they were. They were coming up in
a scene like that Vay seen at lower level, and
they got to this point. So this must be their
maladroit right for Weezer or whatever, like or they're sant
anger push it out, like push it out, they're trying
to or the American right there, American idiot where they're
like trying to do something. I think I bet you
(26:24):
American idiot had a lot more to say than this.
I know that well. But I think like they probably
land the metaphors a little stronger than this.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I think that's probably true. And I feel like, you know,
I also feel like he was Look, I'm not like
a card carrying Green Day fan. But I do think
he's like a great songwriter, you know what I mean,
Like whether or not I always love the uh the end,
I don't know even the right way to end that sentence.
(26:55):
It's not like I don't really hear Green Day songs
and be like that's bad, you know what I mean.
I just don't know if it's exactly But there's some
Green Day songs that I think are like great, And
I think he has a real awareness of he's a
smart pop songwriter. I think, I totally think, and so
I think when he puts his mind to something like
(27:16):
that project, like I remember at the time of American
Idiot thinking it was actually pretty cool along the lines
of what we were discussing earlier. I don't really think I
ever owned the record, but I feel like the idea
that in the Teeth of the Bush thing, some like
a huge band was putting out songs that were explicitly
like kind of like I'm thumbing their nose at that
(27:38):
and inviting their audience to do the same. Now, if
you sit there with a fine tooth quom and go
through those songs, there is there is a question there is.
It's what's brilliant about it is it is intentionally it
is not rage against the machine, where that guy's concerns
are hyper specific and he is being hyper literal in
telling you about them. Their genius, of course, was that
(27:58):
they figured out how to like Trojan Horse songs about
like Leonard Peltier and the Sandinistas and the Zapatistas and
every other thing and like income inequality all the rest
of it into like massive led Zeppelin by way of
hardcore songs that like a bunch of people would just
go nuts for and then like later might be like, wait,
(28:19):
what is he talking about? You know, I don't know
if with the Green Day stuff, it feels like that
that record the times I've heard American idiot songs later,
the concerns it's more thematic to me than it is
like policy oriented or you know what I mean. That's
not a criticism, that's that you know. I remember Bob Dylan.
There's a famous story he says to Phil Oaks, great
(28:43):
folk songwriter, but it was a very much like a
topical lefty love me, I'm a liberal and all this
kind of stuff, And Dylan says to himt one point
like you're not a songwriter, you're a journalist, And it
was meant to be like very and I think it
was very cutting to him because I think they all
held him in such high regard that him sort of
saying like, yeah, you just like you just read the
(29:05):
paper and write songs, and it's kind of.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Right, you're Do you think he meant it as he
didn't agree with him, or that he's being too close.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I think he meant it more like it that well,
he sort of seems like he might be like a
world class asshole Bob Dylan.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
But oh, I agree, I agree, But I know, like
if he meant it as like, hey, you're not doing
this effectively, like you know, you could do it a
little bit more subtle and get your point across farther
than doing it so clunky, you're basically I.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Think maybe I think that at that point it was set.
What when he's saying that, it's when he's sort of
started his apostasy from uh, what's it called topical songwriting.
He's basically decided like after my back pages and you know,
the band, he starts playing band music. He's kind of like,
(29:53):
I don't do that anymore. So it was almost his
way of being like, like, I think he was a
dude who was he was always playing chess like people
were probably like phil Oaks is the new Dylan, and
Dylan was sort of like I'm sure didn't like that
and was like, and phil Oaks, those songs are great songs.
You know, I don't agree. He was a journalist. I
(30:14):
think he actually wrote about that stuff with a lot
of soul and sensitivity, and also so to a lot
of journalists. But anyway, this is all just to say again,
I do I like what you're saying, because I think
it when I'm saying maybe I'm being a little uncharitable
when I say it's invalidating. Like, look, people exist in
the contexts in which they exist. And if this band
(30:34):
was like, hey, we're gonna put like a song on,
we have an opportunity to get on TRL and like
have a song that's about like how ridiculous the sort
of like infrastructure of celebrity is, well, that's kind of cool.
Maybe for me there's some kind of tension and also
participating in the infrastructure of celebrity while doing that. But
(30:55):
then it's like that's a more naughty question, like what
do you want? Do you want? Fiona app getting up
at the VMAs and being like this is all stupid,
I personally do. I kind of like them, And then
I like when someone like her like never went to
something like that again, that to me is actually like
coolest because the person's being like, you know, the person
has a front row seat, they're in it, and they're like,
(31:18):
you know, this is like total bullshit, right, and then
they're like and I'm just never gonna come again. I
kind of for me, And maybe that's childish Holden cough fieldish.
I don't know, but there's a part of me that
like I love that, and yeah, but everybody can do it.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
I know. Another thought I have is like there are
times that it just I missed the window of time
that it would be controversial, like like for example, like
I'm not really a big sex Pistols fan. I'm not
a Johnny fans and that that that that that thing
he did.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
After Public Image Limited Public.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I can't believe that. I think it's the weirdest ship.
I don't like it at all, Like that's like me
being like I don't and I'm embarrassed to watch it.
I hate it, but I remember being a kid and
being like even like younger in like high school and
rolling my eyes at anarchy. Ye okay, I am in
(32:31):
that case. It's like I I was like, oh wow,
that's I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Because you were going like this, I want to see it,
will do it for me too, but it's not working.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
That's because I'm in zoom. Sorry, but I remember feeling
that way, and even then, and probably at the time
it was controversial to say that he's that they're.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Totally and to be on the BBC like being high
and drunk and swearing and.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, sure sure, and so I give it credit for that,
and I really I give yeah totally and even American Idiot,
I give it a lot of credit because they went
out on that was that was a tough time, like
in like a sort of post role to speak out
like that was you know, there's only a couple of
bands that did it, and someone over people somehow of
raging against machine went over so many people's heads that
like people are still figuring out that their poetical which
(33:23):
is crazy. The name gave American Idiot was directly like
that was that. I think they're almost some of the
most direct lyrics that there could be for you know,
like a leftist. I'm this is what, this is how
I believe, like I don't like this political regime, and
(33:44):
I give that that credit, even though I also think
it's a little bit of an eye roll now looking
back or just certain things are like okay, but this
I can't.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
This isn't sophisticated in any way. And I don't and
I don't When I say sophisticated, I don't mean like
swirling a you know, a glass of you know, some
expensive wine while you the port. I mean like it
it's unsubtle in the wrong ways. Don't want to be
(34:15):
an American idiot whatever. They're like. What's brilliant about that
is that it's specifically unspecific. He's not saying like, don't
want to codify endless wars in the Middle East, for
like he's saying like, uh, he's kind of finding a
way to avoid being specific, but is also being specific
in positioning himself as opposed to a kind of thoughtlessness
(34:39):
he found running rampant in his country. This is just
like it's so it's it feels a little bit like
a kind of bait thing to me, Like they kind
of like I feel like it was a way too.
There's something that actually you bring up the sex pistols,
it's interesting, there's something about it. It's like it is
(35:00):
like like with time, all things kind of like somewhat
these things kind of like rhyme, repeat but degrade. Like
this was a way to try to like use those
same platforms, those labels, MTV, all these other outlets to
sort of like they kind of I feel like that
was the marketing plan in some way for I'm sure
(35:21):
the meeting about this band and this single at the
label with the publicist and the radio rep was about
like how to position them as like the bad boys
in this and like once you're in that territory, you're
probably not the bad boy. You're probably not or if
(35:43):
you are, like what does that even mean? Like you know,
it's like the thing about the sex pistols is like you, yeah, okay,
it's cool that there were some people to say saying
the word anarchy on the BBC, but at the end
of it was like, well, actually it was just like
a bunch of kids who didn't really know what the
hell they were doing, who being positioned by like two
(36:03):
masterminds that were like fashion industry visionaries, like do you
know what I mean, Like, you get to a certain
point you're like, what's actually radical about this at all?
And again not that I think it's when you introduce
this stuff, you are allowed to ask these questions. When
this stuff comes, when you make the choice as an
artist and as a institution, we're able to bring this
(36:24):
stuff into the frame, well, then you're allowed to be
interrogated about it. One of the things that I think
is so cool about what I thought was so cool
with Rage before they got back together, is that Zach
sort of who was in a lot of ways like
the leftist left most left leftist in that band, was like, Oh,
(36:48):
this project doesn't actually serve my mission statement, Like I
actually want this shit to happen, and our band has
done nothing to make that happen. So I'm just gonna
not do it anymore. And I think and then he
like went and like lived with the Zapatistas down it
(37:10):
or like you know these he was like, that's he's
about it, that guy, And there's and I'm not saying
I'm not fucking out in the streets doing it, you
know what I mean? Like I have a very complicated
internal relationship to my own sort of political identity. But
I always admired that, and then you know, at some
point maybe he was like, it's I need Whether it's
as simple, he's allowed to be like I need some money,
(37:32):
he's also allowed to be like, I'm miss playing music
with those people, and he's also allowed to be like, well,
maybe I'll try again, you know what I mean. And
I thought it was cool that they came back and
did that. But that guy I believe has the courage
of his convictions. I don't even know that there's convictions
to have courage about in this song. I think it's
just like a bit of role playing. And you know,
(37:54):
maybe that's not for me to say, but I uh,
you know, it's also a very approachable song. Great chorus,
Yeah no, no tenacious D in the half of the
half of the D in.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
The VID half the D. I want to go back
a little bit what you said, because I think I
think we're dancing around a sort of the way to
sort of make a message, and it's weird to do
something like this. Probably, I don't know, maybe ten years
or eight years after, maybe longer. Shenad O'Connor on SNL, Right,
(38:27):
ten years, yeah, ten years, right, A moment like that
is so is trying to raise awareness. Like even still today,
people are like, that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
You know when you see it, it's shocking. I watched
that like once a year to remind myself of it's
the coolest thing I've ever seen somebody do in that
context ever, and real stakes, real steaks.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
She got people, and people will go people. So there's
there's a lot of camps. There's people who see that
and go, I can't fucking believe that, and they don't
want to know why she did it. And there are
people who are like, that's interesting, I want to see why,
and then they make that decision for themselves to look
it up and see how they feel about why. And
I think that's that's what you should set out to
do with with like art that is trying to raise awareness. Right.
(39:13):
And I'll say this, I sometimes talk about your music,
but there's been a lot of times in my life
that you've song lyrics you wrote have raised awareness to
topics and that I'm like, oh, I didn't really know
I felt that way, but now I feel that way,
and I oh, I'm so I'm going to look into
this a little bit more, and I think you've done
such a good Yeah, but from all the way from
when I first heard your music, like it was like
(39:34):
Whistling Dixie and songs that are I'm like, I didn't
know I even felt that way, but I feel the
same way. And I think like there is such a
it's a missed opportunity that if you really did want
to say something about wealth inequality.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, like what is this even? But that's the thing.
I'm like, what is this even saying? It's like saying
like we're good, We're not rich people. We're not celebrities.
I know we are rich people in our celebrities, but
we're not really and we're with you guys, and let's
go get them, like this is nothing. This isn't a thing,
this isn't a state thing.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
So get them. The funniest part, like it's so funny,
it's like with it. Everyone's like, yeah, let's get them.
And then they're like in the house.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah yeah, like wait, that's exactly and maybe this is
a good place we used to wrap it up, like
I think you actually in in Look when someone's like,
can't we just like things, can't we just have fun?
We totally. Can you've totally. There's a million things I
just like and that are just fun. This is trying
to have its cake and eat it too. It wants
(40:32):
to be a fun, approachable, sugary pop punk song that
also wants to wear the clothes of saying something but
doesn't actually say anything. It's much better. It's just a
sugary pop punk song with like some cool sounds in it.
Like that's a much better thing. Once you actually get
in bed with the lyrics, you're like, oh, this is bullshit.
(40:53):
And when you put it next to something like like
I could do an hour on the sinad O'Connor sn thing,
it's the thing. It to me, it is like the
thing against which every fucking thing like this should be
measured forever. Because it more or less ended her like
(41:14):
that degree of her. She continued to be on a
major label. She continued to be a very successful artist,
very venerated artist, somebody who people but she also was
somebody who for the rest of her career had to
like deal with the fallout of that.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
People looked at her as a ticking time bomb of
like what like, oh, I don't trust her, what is
she going to do? Right, Like there's like even even
if people agreed with her, they're like, look, there's brands
involved in this. Like people are like, that's a liability, yo.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
And the thing that I'll always remember about that and
we should is like the next week, Madonna was the
musical guest or something, or I think Joe Pesh was
the host, and he said we should. He would smack
her in the face if he saw her, and then
Madonna ripped up a picture of Joey. But ifuco like this,
look that up. If you don't know what that was,
(42:03):
it was like the Long Island Lolita, some trashy tabloid
story and to fight the real enemy and like kind
of like condemned her.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
It was like and this is like, you know, noted
feminist icon, you know, Madonna, and I just I remember
thinking like, wow, she really And the other side of that, though,
is people like Bikini Kill, legions and generations of punk people,
especially female identifying people, seeing that moment and being like,
(42:32):
like it activated I just got goosebumps. It like activated
a whole bunch of people to be like, oh, yo,
stand for what you actually believe in, because like this
person just did it. Live in front of millions of people,
and if you watch that video, the audience is it
is very rare that this is literally true. They are
(42:52):
stunned into silence. It's totally silent, and I just can't
think of something that's more. And also, by the way,
not to be she was right fifteen years early, right
about something that became like a global scandal and a
OSCAR winning industrially codified fucking movie. She was fifteen years
(43:17):
ahead of everybody on that. So anyway, that being said,
a nice song by good Charlotte, very fun tune, but
it doesn't pass the Shanade test for O k D.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
But I will listen to it and laugh and it
on that level too. Okay, greats so fun
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