September 26, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode, Kevin and Casey are questioning their faith in Metallica’s 2003 hit. Are they madly in anger with this song, or are they madly in anti-anger?
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Give it a chance, give it a chance, give it
a chick good morning, Give it a chance, give it
a chance, give it a chance, give it a chance,
good morning, Give it a you want to give it
a chance, Give it a chance, give it a chance.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Just give it. Hi, everybody, So a little behind the
scenes is you know? Sometimes you know, I get excited
about what song we're going to do, and I get
the part where Kevin doesn't know and I tell him
what it is. Is it tickles me every time? The
tickles help tickles you all.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
I'm tickled.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And I was between a few songs and then when
we right before I started recording, I was debating which
one and I looked in Kevin's eyes and this one
spoke to me. Oh god, okay, and I think it's
a fun one for us. And it's a meaty topic.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Oh wow, meaty topic.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Okay, some kind of mons?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Dude?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Wait, is that what it is?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yeah, you guess it's some kind of Monster by Metallica.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
It's Saint Anger. Oh is that not even the Actually
I haven't heard it in a while, so is this
not even.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
The There is a song called some kind of Monster
The Monster Lives. I feel like he says that at
some point, and then there's a song called Saint Anger, which,
if I remember correctly, before we even get into it.
But this is all around the documentary some kind of monster,
which should be required viewing any chances out there who
(01:33):
haven't seen it, even if you don't care at all,
even if you don't even like music. I don't know
why you listen, how you'd get to us if you don't,
but it is really really really special and crazy, and
if if if it is Saint Anger, I think that
the before we listen. I'll just say my favorite thing
in the entire documentary is when Lars's dad do you
(01:55):
know what I'm about say? Lars plays his dad I
think it's this song. Well, we'll see what song we're
about to hear. He plays in one of the songs
from this record, and Lars's father, who was like a
Danish tennis player or something, he was like, so, what
would you do? You know, what do you think we
should do to make it? Is there something missing? And
his dad's like, what I would do is drag it
(02:17):
to the trash bin and press delete.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Wow, And Lars is like, oh fuck, thanks dad. Yeah,
so funny, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You got a real window into what Lars is about.
From that interaction. You were like, Oh, this is why
you tried to shut down Napster so hard.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
He's the real villain of that documentary and he doesn't
know it, which is so incredible.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I know he was a real villain, like turn of
the century music culture villain, for sure. There's so much
meat on the bone. We have it with three minutes in.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Chance or something like that. But the thing that got
me on this one and why I threw it on
my list is it's really I'm so excited to hear it.
But I'm madly in anger with you.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh it is Saint Anger. I'm madly in anger.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh I ca here we go with open minds.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Here we go, open minds. All right, here we go.
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Exhausting.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
So what I would just say quickly, first thing.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Is wait, hold on, I accidentally replayed mine. Okay, sorry,
go on.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Before I get into anything else, what I would just
say is the first thing I sent Casey in the
chat when we press play was are we doing all
seven minutes and twenty seconds? And we did?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I did not. For the record, I played the music
video version, which was only five minutes and forty seconds,
which was too long.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
They had the sense for the I love that the
radio edit is nearly six minutes long, five minutes forty
seconds long. Wow, that is a workout.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I want to I want to start with what we've
already been saying that it's it's exhausting, but I'm impressed
because these guys are not at the top of their game.
I mean, they might be financially, but like they're not
Spring Chickens at this point. When was this two.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Thousand, two thousand and one, two, something like that.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'm guessing a little later. Let's see, I'm going to
say a two thousand and three three, So yeah, yeah, yeah,
you're right, You're right there.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
They've been a band for twenty years at this point,
and they're twelve years removed from their commercial apex at
this point, ten or twelve.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Years removed, but I think still very mainstream. Like this
album was platinum or diamond, I don't know, like it
would did very well.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
By this point. They're an institution, Like I mean, I
think even poorly received and poorly commercially performing Metallica record
would still have a sold out arena tour attached to it.
They're like as big as a band playing guitar could be.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
This point, So my point is like, this is an
impressive tune to pull off in just like from a
cardio level, especially for Lars, who I think between us
is probably he probably did a lot of takes to
get this performance. But it's like, I don't know how
often he does these like blast beats on their tunes,
Like he's not really known for it, and it's exhausting,
(05:23):
and it's a lot, and it's through the whole song,
and and so that would be that's both a chancey
and an anti chancy, and that it's I think this
song really drags, even though it's constant, Yeah, you know
this force of like, but it really in some ways
I feel like it's almost sluggish, even though I definitely
think it's all quantized, which is like.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Within an inch of its life. I think what's interesting
about it is if it was a third of the
length the song basically repeats itself three times in the
version I just listened to you, and if it was
like a third as long with all of the parts,
because there's like eleven parts, yeah, which I like.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I give that. I give that some some pause.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
If it was a third as long, it would be
ten times more effective. The the baseline chancey is this
Metallica is in some ways like one of the most
punk rock I don't mean that in their metal in
their name, but they're one of the most punk rock
success stories sort of that that that exists, particularly in
(06:24):
the time they came to popularity. Like Metallica came out
and they were like an underground I think they came
from the Bay Area. I think that was where they
started playing, but like they were a hard touring no MTV,
no radio, and like for the first eight years of
the band, through all those records like Kill Them All,
Ride the Lightning and Justice for All Master Puppets, all
(06:47):
that stuff, it's like they really didn't move their sound
towards what was happening in like the Sunset Strip or
like they they definitely didn't like towards Motley Crue and Poison.
They actually went like the opposite direction and in cut
(07:07):
and in some ways like they defined what we even
think classic metal is. And so to me it's like
they're sort of regardless there are which is not the
point of this song that the actually it sort of
will become the point of the song. As our conversation evolves,
they do have some ridiculous moments in their history. Now
(07:30):
the arc of any band that's around the song probably will,
but they have some moments like the whole Reload thing
where they basically like try to become like a Lallapalooza
band and they cut their hair and they're wearing eyeliner.
There was like Load and Reload was like and now
is in like the mid nineties, bridging like grunge to
what becomes new metal. What's interesting to me, I don't
(07:51):
want to start in like six different directions. I'll come
back to this, but what I think all that stuff
when I was growing up, Like I remember seeing the
video for one their first music video, black and white,
like that them plane and like an airplane hangar in
the footage of Johnny gets Your Gun the guy who's
lost all his limbs and an explosion in a war,
and I was like, I remember, I don't I hope
(08:11):
he's not embarrassed that I share this. But my younger
brother Dan, we were kids, we would watch MTV and
we would also be allowed to like order one video
each sometimes from the box, which was this service you
could like order it was like three dollars for three videos,
and you could like request whatever videos you wanted to watch.
It was kind of a cool user interface thing, pre
internet thing on a local cable in Brooklyn. And I
(08:33):
remember watching the video for one and we were like scared,
Like we were both authentically scared. It was like watching
like a Freddy Krueger movie or something. We were like
really scared, Like he was like upset, you know. So
that the reason I bring those things up is to say, like,
Dan's a fucking coward. No, the reason we stuff is
to say they were like kind of in the context
(08:56):
of popular culture and you know, multinational record industry and
the rest of it, pretty punk. Pretty punk. They were
like dudes wearing like black jeans, black T shirts just
getting up and like playing this blistering music that was
about like death and nightmares and whatever else.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
They crossed that over. That was probably a movement, and
they they are the face that crossed that into mainstream
without question.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
And they also managed to be like the they are
also a lot of that music is pretty fucking great,
Like it's pretty bracing. I'm not like the most scholarly
or I wouldn't they claim to being the biggest Metallica fan.
There are definitely people in my life that are way,
way way more with that, but I definitely know like
it's kind of undeniable. And then even with the Black album,
(09:39):
when they do do the MTV thing more robustly and
it becomes a diamond selling giant stadium, even that, it's
just like they took the formula and like.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Slowed it down.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
It's still like heavy, brooding, intense, and it just they
kind of like managed to turn into their own weird
version of pop music. And that's all of that is
the baseline for which Metallica always gets a chancey because
they sort of like they kind of semi invented a thing,
(10:11):
and at worst they crossed over a thing sort of
on their own terms that was in the context in
which it existed profoundly not mainstream. That being said, and
I'll connect that to the song and then I'll turn
it over because I've been talking too long. This was
beautiful about cook Chef cook about this song. Actually, why
did just briefly say something? We opened about Lingo and generations.
(10:35):
I'm forty four. We opened for the front Bottoms on
tour last year, most recently a short tour out to
the West Coast, and after one of the shows, I
would go to the merch table and sell merchant and
hang out. And there was these kids at these shows,
like fifteen year old kids. And this kid came up
to me in Kansas City and was like when you
came out, I was like, who's this old dad? But
then you played and I was like, damn, he's eating
(10:56):
right now. That dude just ate and I was like,
I didn't really eat like I was like usually after
the show because I don't want to get like sick
er stitches in my tomue tum anyway. So the the
But that's just to say nothing about the song. The
thing about the song that's kind of cool is when
it starts, you're reminded of everything we just talked about.
(11:18):
There's like different there's parts of this song where you're like,
all right, Metallic of rules, this is just like blistering
stampede of like crazy, you know, muted, like he's like
choking the symbol, and yeah, riff riff after riff after
riff after riff, You're like, oh yeah, right, like nuclear assault.
Metallica is all about like just like the best ship
(11:40):
by them is like scorched Earth.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I agree, And in fact Headfeel's voice is like the
same as it was in a lot of ways. It's
just in the past. They soaked all of this in
reverb and this is dry, Like his vocal is super dry,
and I think they're going for that and.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
We'll get to this, We'll get to the fish its
own section.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, but finish your ear yet. That's it.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
That's it. It's just it is. It has all the
hallmarks of that. Maybe we could transition into we can
waffle back and forth. There's no rules between chance and
anti chance. You are also aware from the very beginning,
whether you are even in touch with this awareness or not.
I bet somebody who knows nothing about anything we're talking
about would hear this and there would be a moment
where the beg kind of sounds crazy, and not just
(12:25):
like the riffage, I mean like the sound you're like,
it kind of sounds crazy, and the snare drum sound is,
let's get into it, canonically catastrophically terrible. It's like something
that if you were in like a Reddit forum about Metallica,
I promise you there is a seven hundred page thread
(12:47):
about the snare drum sound on this record and this song.
It's the thing people talk about who are like aware
of their band. What the fuck the choice was to
make that the snare drum sound for this whole record
is so crazy to me. It sounds like it's so
abrasive and such a like distancing agent from the music.
Every time he hits it, I'm like, ugh.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
My speculation is that I think Lars is maybe King Herb,
and he's a King Herb, and I think he really
needs to stand out and like hear his voice, like
even in that documentary, he's always like sitting on a
table with like crossed legs, like he's always doing something extra,
as the kids say, And this is that this is
(13:30):
his embodiment of like how can I stay? How can
I like put myself into this? And it's always to
the detriment in my opinion of like the music, like
or or to the environment or in the documentary you
see like in the environment, or even like the napster thing.
The napster thing is crazy because he's like it's the
thing that gets brought up. He says, like he's like
(13:50):
every time that my name comes up. It's the Napster
thing even to this day, which is insane amazing, but
it's it's that's the same thing. It's like he went
all in. He made a big swing on the snare
or on Napster or in these arguments he made.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Hating James Hetfield apparently, like seemingly in that documentary, you're
just like you really, yeah, it's he's he's rough. He
seems rough.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
He's a barnacle. That's like on this band. That's like,
you know, it's like is it part of the ship
if it's been there forever? But it's but yeah, the
Napster thing was great. Remember how Sean Parker wore that
Metallica hat when he like came out at the VMA's.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I do that's like critical? Uh you know gen X
millennial CUSP content was like, yeah, I was. I was.
You were probably like two you were.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I was watching it, watching it. I think I was
closer videos was watching it going getting idea.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Let me descrate this.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Head spinning around when you're talking about music videos. I
was definitely thinking that one. That one was scary, Like I.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Whole thing was. I was a little older by then.
I actually feel like if I was to watch some
of there's apparently like unedited or different edits of that
nine inch nowl stuff that's intentionally way more like stuff
that would have never been showed on TV as like
flirting with like kind of like approximating like snuff films
(15:22):
like esque things, and you're like there's something about that
that's so funny that I'm like, I'm all, I'm like, wow,
that's you know, I really get it, like pushing and
the outer limits of a particular kind of psychology. And
there's also a part of me it's like, what the.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Fuck are you doing? That's gross?
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Like yeah, yeah, like okay, that's cool. Like we bought
Charles Manson's house and that's where we made the record.
I'm like, all right, cool.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
You know I remember people being like gg Allen like
shit on stage and you're like why, like is he okay?
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Dude? You just reminded me of and no. The answer
to that was no, he was not okay. But the
something with gg Allen that was like I remember someone
showing me something like a late fucked up night at
someone's apartment and they were like, oh, I got this
VHS tape of Gglen doing this like, and I was like, okay,
I was like whatever I was, whatever I was engaging
(16:14):
with at that time chemically, and I was like kind
of like a hostage, like sitting on this person's couch
and they put on some shit that I was like,
I don't think I can still remember it today twenty
three years later, but I was like I never needed
to see that, and I never need to see it again,
and certainly I don't need it to be on like
(16:35):
a TRL or whatever. The same anger thing, the snare thing,
the Lars thing, the needing to stand out there. I mean, look,
(16:57):
the thing is they probably it's the ambition fuel whatever.
Lars is clearly like they were a kind of anti
rock star, right because they were like playing these huge places,
but they weren't like in the context in which they exist.
Now that gets changed, we'll get there in a minute,
(17:19):
but in the time in which they're coming, like, you know,
their first platinum record, I think the first platinum one
was Injustice for All and they get nominated for a
Grammy for that and they play at the Grammys and
it's a moment like it's like they play one at
the Grammys in like nineteen eighty nine, and people are
like whether I like that or not? That was racing
and like now it's the famous thing where they lose
(17:41):
the Metal Grammy to Jethrow Toll.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Oh, I don't even remember this.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
It's a big, like funny thing because it was like
Jethrow Toll's like they have a flute, you know. It's
like not a metal band at all. And they were
like a band from twenty years whatever. It was a
classic Grammys thing where they rewards something from twenty years earlier,
where it's like Denzel gets it for training day because
he should have gotten it from Malcolm X, but they
gave it to somebody else, you know whatever. Anyway, gotcha.
(18:08):
But like there's this they really were like they weren't
Axel Rose, they weren't Michael Jackson, they weren't like, you know,
Cindy Lauper. They weren't Debbie gibbson whatever was like happening.
But they weren't like also like these sons of strip
bands with the teased hair and whatever. They were something
very different to that. They also couldn't really call them
a punk band because no punk bands were operating at
(18:31):
that level of commercialism, and because a punk band would
have made the same to anger one third as long.
They would have thrashed through all of those parts and
they would have been like songs over after two minutes.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
But you know metal's thing, one of its things is
it's like excesses arrangement wise or whatever, epic long yeah, yeah,
and it starts with what you started with. It's also
meant to be Maybe this is another way in which
they're meant to stand out, or he's meant to stand out.
It's supposed to be something you're like, Wow, you marvel
at the dexterity of how Lars can be playing blast beats.
(19:04):
For the other thing is every drummer I know, for
what it's worth is like Lars sucks.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yes, it's really crazy. Like I watch sometimes like these
like memes online of things, and there's a guy that
I really do like. He adds Lars esque drums to
like other songs, and I've seen that he's so good
at it, and it really feels like Lars and he
makes faces like Lars. Yes, it's like of like TikTok
e Instagram videos. It's a section I really like.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
It's really so clearly done. The research that's what's great
about it?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
He must be a fan actually even though he's making
fun of it, but like he to listen to it
so much, or actually they're a really interesting band that
I think people who love Metallica can hate Lars and
still love Metallica.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
I think there's people who, in fact, you're right, and
I think that there's people who it's like Neil Young
or something. There are people who like Neil Young's their guy,
but one of the baseline things is that they're like,
I feel like I'm saying bassline a lot in this episode.
One of the fundamental of being a serious Neil Young
fan is that you have to concede that there is
(20:05):
just a bunch of absolute garbage in there as well.
The heights are arguably unmatched in some way in in
his genre. And you hear a Neil Young song and
inside of three seconds you know it's a Neil Young song.
The way he plays the guitar, the way he sings it.
It's But also there's like whole records that you're like,
(20:27):
I can't fuck with that at all. And I think
there are Metallica fans who feel that way about various
segments of Metallica's recorded output. But I think is also
interesting about this song though, is that it reflects. It's
one of those moments, which I think we've talked about
at some point before. I feel like we have one
of those moments where a genre defining band, in the
(20:50):
fitful exercise of trying to maintain its relevance and stature,
starts to reflect the things it influenced to some degree.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Oooh okay, oh yeah, let me get that straight. Yeah,
So you're saying that, like, this band that influence all
these bands is now referencing bands that it influenced.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Exactly and what so specifically for me in this song
the choices you talked about about the snare sound and
the totally dry vocal thing that's actually I think meant
to be a kind of There's two things that are
happening at the same time. One is, and I'll finish
the thing about what I just said, it's it's related though.
One is they're mistaking I think this one subjective what
(21:33):
they're making. A mistake that is built around this is
going to be a return to form. We're going back
to like our roots. It's like they make this mistake
and assumption that like in making these certain sonic choices,
they're like going back to their roots. Like it's like
we're gonna go and it's gonna be no reverb on anything.
It's just going to be like super serrated and nasty,
(21:55):
and we're in fact we're going to use this like
crazy pinging snare sound. It's just gonna be so abrasive
and and then so doing. Actually it's just like doesn't
really sound like them or like anything you really want
to hear. Actually, and for all of James Hetfield's strengths
as a vocalist, I don't know that you really need
his voice laid that there. It's not like it's like,
(22:18):
I don't know, such a pure instrument that you're like, oh,
it's like hearing Sam Cook without any anything, any adornment,
or Marvin Gay or something. But I think that what
the moments where you hear the influence of the things
they helped influence the verses that sane, anger, reck whatever.
(22:40):
It's like clean tone, arpeggiation, halftime that's straight up like
heart shaped box lithium that kind of like that kind
of like grunge, alternative rock, slow it down, clean it up.
Even the vocal melody and the way it's like repeat.
It's this kind of very repetitive and then when they
(23:02):
step on the pedal, things get loud. Hallmark of all
that loud soft loud thing. They go new metal with
it with the person.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
You push it.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Out, you push it out. It's like some system of
a down limb biscuit thing. That to me is maybe
my biggest issue with it. It doesn't feel like motel.
No chance there, no yeah, perfect, no chance.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
There t shirts made, no chance there, no chance there.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Smush it out.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
You smush it out, it says on the back. Also
you to smush it out. Yeah, blush it out.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
But I rush it out and slush it out.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
But no, that is so true. That is so new metal,
and it doesn't fit them at all. But it's interesting.
I watched the video. They have the new bassist who
feels very new metal. That guy I forget his.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Robert Trujillo or something. Yeah, yeah, he came from suicidal tendencies.
I think, yes, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, But he feels the most new metal of the band,
and they do that.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Weird crab walk thing. Yeah, he like plays the bass
at his feet and he's like doing it.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yay, especially to go from Jason Newstead right from him.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
For Jason Newst, I do seem like a nice guy. Basically,
they told they like mixed the bass out of Injustice
for All, the first album he plays bass on after
Cliff Burton dies, and it's to this day it's still
this thing where he's like, I can't really hear anything
I'm doing on that record. And that record also sounds
crazy because it's all metal riffs, thrash, you drumming, and
(24:37):
you're like, is there bass guitar on any of this?
Like what is this anyway? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Wild? So yeah, that's so that You're right, that is
so new metal. I think there's all There's like some
other moments too that I think that that tone that
you're mentioning that is also sort of Nirvana is also
like I kept thinking, like pod or like these other
bands really like have this, like I have this sort
of dryness to the even even I even wrote down
(25:05):
Rage against the Machine, especially like their later stuff like
their their their records that came out early two thousands,
like I think that, and I actually I think that's
more of an engineer and producer choice. I think it's
more of his choice than you know, to keep it
so that w and I get it, because when you're
(25:25):
listening to the radio and it's corn and it's limp
biscuit to drop in the quintessential old school metallica sound
will feel like a throwback, whereas you want people to
know this is new and we wanted to it, want
it should feel. I can understand him thinking it should feel,
you know, contemporary, and I can understand why you would
make that choice. But within that I think you tweak.
(25:47):
I think you put a little bit of reverb on
the vocals something. Yeah, I think the whole thing that
you're you're touching on there is actually like a really
fertile subject in general about entertainment industry period, and.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
You see it. Maybe you see it in music most clearly.
It's slightly different than like maybe the arc for certain
actors or like people who make things in other very
highly visible entertainment mediums and music. The zeitgeist moves so
fast that when someone is perceptibly moving after it, like
(26:23):
trying to stay in relevance, and they're like, you know,
kind of aging out of that, it's really like you're like, oh,
I see you, I see you. You're trying to like
it's like the Steve b Shemy meme, like of the
Hello fellow kids, and he's like, you know, Steve BUCHEMI
and like backwards hat and whatever. Like it feels like
(26:45):
those self conscious choices to try and keep up with
the like whatever is usually to diminishing returns.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
My question to that is, do you think that still
exists as much as it had? Because with that, with
you know, without like what the radio was, especially at
this time and throughout the radio on to turn the
radio up, that's my favorite Metallica song. When this was
the the main thing was to get on the radio
and to fit in with the radio. People were trying
(27:15):
to fit in with the radio. But now the radio
is basically you know, it's it's it's a lot of
talk now and in a good way. Like I think
it's it's less of it's less of a of like
I mean, I'm sure it's still cataploat ploats.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
I love that Cataploads is a good band name.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Well it's cataploats. I'm sure it still pushes these bands
forward in a you know, in a way it's still
it's still there. But yeah, do you think that there's
this modern thing of like I got to get on
that playlist?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yes, I know that that is true. Talk to me
about I can't give you clearly, I can't give you
l Ron Hubbard. I clearly can't make can't give you
inside information with respect, so like it having a propulsive
cataplosive success for my commercial career. But I can tell
(28:06):
you the game has absolutely largely become like upon release
of single one from forthcoming album or whatever collection of songs,
EP whatever, like if you are of any sort of
I mean, and I'm actually gonna go like like like
people my wrung or even like a little lower in
(28:26):
the food chain. It is really about like what playlists
did you get?
Speaker 2 (28:32):
And like where I mean, and you know, being used
on TikTok through like in the background of us, you know,
like that trendy that listen.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
If any of you fucking chancers are like somehow you know,
either yourself or adjacent to a uh influenza influence influenza,
please put any song of either of ours on there,
because it would be nice to make that cool bill.
But yeah, I feel like uh a billion or just
(29:03):
like one bill, like it's one bill is one bill? Yeah,
one cool bill is one bill. I saw a Snoop
Dogg on this subject. I saw did you see this?
It was pretty funny. He was like, and that guy,
he was like, can someone please, someone must ask him
a question at some press conference thing he was doing.
They're like, you know about Spotify, And he was like,
can someone please explain to me how the fuck we
make money off of this? Like I had seventy two
(29:26):
million streams of whatever last year and I made forty
six thousand dollars. Like, if I'm doing that, what about
these kids that are playing like two hundred thousand streams? Like,
someone can explain to me how you don't get a
million dollars off a billion streams or whatever. I'm I
would love to know. And he's like at the end,
he's like, I mean, I don't know. I don't even
know who runs this shit. Are you in the room
(29:47):
right now? If someone who runs Spotify is in the
room right now? But yeah, clearly no. I was talking
about a single bill. If you can get us a single.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
Single bill, okay.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
I also think radio, like everything else, has become a
much more splintered game. And I think it does still exist,
and it does still but I think the what's it
called the platforms and the oh there's a word I'm
looking for for like what they're programming, what style, what
genre or whatever, what each of these stations represents. I
(30:30):
do think terrestrial radio is like in a lot of
ways diminished. I think for people like me, even for
people like the National Right who sell out like Madison
Square Garden, they don't think they're going to get on
the radio, you know what I mean, Like they're not
even thinking about that. They would get on WFUV and
k XP and all of that, k w K, KCRW,
(30:51):
that whole triple A thing. But like the radio that
we're talking about, that's not a place like almost anybody,
most anybody that's not like an upper upper percent pop artist.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Really it's really interesting because but it has I don't know,
it's it has helped like talk like like the personalities
on the radio. Yes, I mean they have always been,
but you know even more so now like you see
these these kind of like each one has their own crew.
Obviously we have, you know, we're under the Elvis Duran
(31:26):
umbrella and that's that's our crew that's our that's our
Z Morning crew.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
That's right, and that's what we grew up with. And honestly,
don't don't don't step to our crew at all.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I'll fight you.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
I'll fight you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
We'll fight you in the dark.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
I'm madly in anger with you.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
So let's jump back into those lyrics. Maybe this is
how do you think he felt? How do you think
he felt when he wrote down I'm madly in anger
with you, like like madly in love with you. He
switched out love to anger.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Yeah, I think that two things are true for me
at the same time, with this whole record, in this
whole documentary, in this song, and maybe this is where
I can tie my little bow up on this. This
was probably a good thing for this man as a person.
He was going through a sobriety journey. He was going
through a like, uh sort of excavation of trauma journey.
(32:18):
He was going through a facing things down with his
bandmates and colleagues journey. And I think he needed to
write all of this stuff down to get that out.
Now do I think the lyrics fucking fuck it all
and fucking no regrets, which by the way, could have
been an I never seen a baby's hey, sorry or whatever.
(32:39):
There our very first r og shit. I think, uh,
I think that that sounds like Nickelback to me, A
fucking fucking nice it's fucking no regrets.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yes, you're right, that is that is Nickelback. It's also
it's too many fucks in that, you know, like when
a when a kid is like learning him to curse,
and he's like, you fucking motherfucker. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
When we were this is when I was in the
first grade at our Lady of Angels Brooklyn, me and
this kid, John wine Garten, we asked to go to
the bathroom and it's a Catholic school and it's like
silent in the hallways. We walked to and from the bathroom,
and the whole time we were just going fuck fuck
fuck ship ship fuck fuck fuck fucky fuck shit fuck.
And so when we come back, it's silent and our
(33:22):
teacher's just looking at us, and we walk in and
heard everything you said, John, and we both like looked
at each others like the Spider Man me. We were
both like she did it, Like we both got in
a lot of trouble, had to bring home a note whatever.
It is exactly like that that's what this is. Like,
it's insane.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I wish she still had the note and like you
framed it in your house.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Maybe I might.
Speaker 5 (33:42):
It says fu fu fuck, it says fuck at all,
fucking no regrets, fucking news, fuck my neck, and then
loves bright Eyes.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
How dided eyes get in here?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Because I was thinking of fuck my face.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I would love a Metallica Bright Eyes Collabo.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yo, he had flea on his last record.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
But that's that's not the same thing now, I guess
it's not.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
It's closer. You get me closer to flee Fuckla California.
And also the thing about the medallion and the news
and you know a lot there, he says, he hangs himself,
which is you know, trigger warning.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Sat Anger. Even just that name so stupid, it's so funny,
Like it's as if any of the other Saints have
an emotion attached to their name. Yeah, it's like Saint Patrick,
you know, Saint Anthony st Anger.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
St Anger of a sissy st Anger you sissy? Yeah, Look, I.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Mean for me with you, I can't. I love it.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
At the end of the day, a push comes to shove.
This is three times too long. Yeah, it has a
number of actually super I'm sure if you saw this
song played live, you'd be like taken in by parts
of its propulsive, aggressive nature. It needs to be sixty
six percent shorter at least, and they need to find
(35:14):
a better snare sound, and they need to put a
little bit of slapback or reaver ab on his voice.
And then we've got a song that I'm not like,
is it Master of Puppets? No, but it would be like, wow,
that's a really good late mid period metallic.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
So there's a lot of metal. I like, like, I
don't think people look at me and they're like, there's
the metal god. But I definitely look at you and
say that you better.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
I say it all the time. I say it's Eadie
all the time, like you know, Casey the metal God.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah, Like, how was she doing since the weed brownies?
Who forced down?
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Oh yeah, listeners from the last episode. Last episode, I
actually forced my daughter to have some weed brownies and
she's you know that story about the person who takes
acid and then they turn into a jug of orange
juice and then they like can't tip over Good Parent
Award CPS.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
And she's like, I'm out, So I lost what I
was saying, Oh metal, I like metal a lot, actually,
and there are oftentimes that I want to dial it
all the way up and go to like death metal
or like you know, corrosion of conformity, like these bass
like when I'm in the mood for it, I want
it to be like it's like there's lots of pulp
(36:20):
orange juice, and then there's like some pulp. I like
lots of pulp, yes with metal, and this song gives
me a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
A lot of pulp in it, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
It's there's a lot of moments that remind me of
like what I like about metal. It's heavy, and it's
like it really does sometimes push you, like I bet
you it's a great song to like work out to
or like totally you know, but like as like a
person who likes how songs are written and like likes
to not you know, tip my hat to that. I
I can't. It's hard from it aside from the fact
(36:50):
that there are all these different parts. But the problem
with is it is that they do those parts so
much it all feels like the same part they do.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
They literally just repeat the song in full three times
and then there's some other stuff that happens too. That's
too much. And I will say it's great to have
a whole bunch of interesting parts. They are capable of that.
They're compelling. They know how to construct their world very compellingly.
But when the change happened from the thrashiness of the
(37:18):
first two minutes to the first sung verse where we're
in that like heart shaped box slash aerials or whatever place,
I laughed out loud. I'd forgotten that. That's I was like,
the transition is so abrupt and so crazy, and then
his voice comes in and it's like he's like right here.
It was just like I actually thought it was legitimately funny.
(37:41):
So look, I think we have appropriately excavated Saint Anger,
and I think we've both we've given it plenty of chance,
and also we've called it like we see it. There's
a lot of bullshit going on here too, doggy, I know, arf.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I just I remembered that part in Give Me a Few,
will Give Me Fire get made, which is I think
they I like that song. I actually like that song,
and it does the same thing where it's like you
is pumped it engine. It's that same breakdown, but that
I think they they I think they stomped the landing
on that. Re Listen to that because I think that's
I know that that was a departure for them. They
(38:18):
lost a lot of fans from the heavy metal era
to the alternative. But I think I want to listen
to Fuel after this. I'm you know, you kind of
you you lit the Metallica candle for me again by
like kind of talking about their their backstory and how
that they sort of are a punk rock story.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
They certainly were. They certainly were, and I think it.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Just made me give them a chance.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
I think Metallica there's a lot to be said for it.
Lars is a tough sell. Lars seems to be a
god tear herb and you know, that's tough price of entry.
But Ah and James kind of look, there's herbaceousness abounds
(39:05):
in the band.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
But I think he's actually really charismatic too.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
She was like and he seems like she's also very
sent There's like a lot of sensitivity going on in
there actually, which kind of sometimes I get why Lars
is like, oh my god, but also Lars is kind
of like that just seems kind of like I would
take it to the garbage, kind of delete it. You know.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's regardless, that's what that's his past.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, that's Lars's past.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
That's his influence. So long story short, Madly and like
with you.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
A Mellian Chauncey with you.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
That's really good. It's fun. I really like that one.
Put that on a T shirt.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, anyone out there who wants to make T shirts.
The first one we had was what was the first one?
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I know, the back said I smush it down, you
smash it down, and in the.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Front I should say I'm madly in chance with you. Okay, yeah,
so in the show notes right your home address and
will get the T shirts from you whoever's making the
T shirts, give us your pin code.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah all right, buddy. Well that was really fun. I'm
really I was exciting. And I think like of the songs,
like I don't know, there's attributes about the song that I.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Like more than this is one of the best ones
ones because it's its own thing in a way that's
kind of like yeah, I get.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
It, I know. And it's also like it's a it's
sometimes a genre that like it's like a horror movie
that's like when it's kind of bad. You're almost like, yeah,
that's fine, exactly, they're supposed to be a little bad,
Like you.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Know, that's exactly right. Yes, this isn't we're not looking
for what we're looking for from, like you know, light
album or something. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Carls June. That's our
that's our our. Of course we always, as always we
end the show with a shoutout. I heard you were
(41:02):
a minutaur. I don't have anything else to go.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Okay, we're just rambling at this point. We're keeping it
all in.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
By Chancey
Speaker 2 (41:13):
He's just giving a sha
Give it a chance, give it a chance, give it
a chick good morning, Give it a chance, give it
a chance, give it a chance, give it a chance,
good morning, Give it a you want to give it
a chance, Give it a chance, give it a chance.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Just give it. Hi, everybody, So a little behind the
scenes is you know? Sometimes you know, I get excited
about what song we're going to do, and I get
the part where Kevin doesn't know and I tell him
what it is. Is it tickles me every time? The
tickles help tickles you all.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
I'm tickled.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And I was between a few songs and then when
we right before I started recording, I was debating which
one and I looked in Kevin's eyes and this one
spoke to me. Oh god, okay, and I think it's
a fun one for us. And it's a meaty topic.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Oh wow, meaty topic.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Okay, some kind of mons?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Dude?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Wait, is that what it is?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yeah, you guess it's some kind of Monster by Metallica.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
It's Saint Anger. Oh is that not even the Actually
I haven't heard it in a while, so is this
not even.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
The There is a song called some kind of Monster
The Monster Lives. I feel like he says that at
some point, and then there's a song called Saint Anger, which,
if I remember correctly, before we even get into it.
But this is all around the documentary some kind of monster,
which should be required viewing any chances out there who
(01:33):
haven't seen it, even if you don't care at all,
even if you don't even like music. I don't know
why you listen, how you'd get to us if you don't,
but it is really really really special and crazy, and
if if if it is Saint Anger, I think that
the before we listen. I'll just say my favorite thing
in the entire documentary is when Lars's dad do you
(01:55):
know what I'm about say? Lars plays his dad I
think it's this song. Well, we'll see what song we're
about to hear. He plays in one of the songs
from this record, and Lars's father, who was like a
Danish tennis player or something, he was like, so, what
would you do? You know, what do you think we
should do to make it? Is there something missing? And
his dad's like, what I would do is drag it
(02:17):
to the trash bin and press delete.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Wow, And Lars is like, oh fuck, thanks dad. Yeah,
so funny, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You got a real window into what Lars is about.
From that interaction. You were like, Oh, this is why
you tried to shut down Napster so hard.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
He's the real villain of that documentary and he doesn't
know it, which is so incredible.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I know he was a real villain, like turn of
the century music culture villain, for sure. There's so much
meat on the bone. We have it with three minutes in.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Chance or something like that. But the thing that got
me on this one and why I threw it on
my list is it's really I'm so excited to hear it.
But I'm madly in anger with you.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh it is Saint Anger. I'm madly in anger.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh I ca here we go with open minds.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Here we go, open minds. All right, here we go.
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Exhausting.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
So what I would just say quickly, first thing.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Is wait, hold on, I accidentally replayed mine. Okay, sorry,
go on.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Before I get into anything else, what I would just
say is the first thing I sent Casey in the
chat when we press play was are we doing all
seven minutes and twenty seconds? And we did?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I did not. For the record, I played the music
video version, which was only five minutes and forty seconds,
which was too long.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
They had the sense for the I love that the
radio edit is nearly six minutes long, five minutes forty
seconds long. Wow, that is a workout.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I want to I want to start with what we've
already been saying that it's it's exhausting, but I'm impressed
because these guys are not at the top of their game.
I mean, they might be financially, but like they're not
Spring Chickens at this point. When was this two.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Thousand, two thousand and one, two, something like that.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'm guessing a little later. Let's see, I'm going to
say a two thousand and three three, So yeah, yeah, yeah,
you're right, You're right there.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
They've been a band for twenty years at this point,
and they're twelve years removed from their commercial apex at
this point, ten or twelve.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Years removed, but I think still very mainstream. Like this
album was platinum or diamond, I don't know, like it
would did very well.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
By this point. They're an institution, Like I mean, I
think even poorly received and poorly commercially performing Metallica record
would still have a sold out arena tour attached to it.
They're like as big as a band playing guitar could be.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
This point, So my point is like, this is an
impressive tune to pull off in just like from a
cardio level, especially for Lars, who I think between us
is probably he probably did a lot of takes to
get this performance. But it's like, I don't know how
often he does these like blast beats on their tunes,
Like he's not really known for it, and it's exhausting,
(05:23):
and it's a lot, and it's through the whole song,
and and so that would be that's both a chancey
and an anti chancy, and that it's I think this
song really drags, even though it's constant, Yeah, you know
this force of like, but it really in some ways
I feel like it's almost sluggish, even though I definitely
think it's all quantized, which is like.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Within an inch of its life. I think what's interesting
about it is if it was a third of the
length the song basically repeats itself three times in the
version I just listened to you, and if it was
like a third as long with all of the parts,
because there's like eleven parts, yeah, which I like.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I give that. I give that some some pause.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
If it was a third as long, it would be
ten times more effective. The the baseline chancey is this
Metallica is in some ways like one of the most
punk rock I don't mean that in their metal in
their name, but they're one of the most punk rock
success stories sort of that that that exists, particularly in
(06:24):
the time they came to popularity. Like Metallica came out
and they were like an underground I think they came
from the Bay Area. I think that was where they
started playing, but like they were a hard touring no MTV,
no radio, and like for the first eight years of
the band, through all those records like Kill Them All,
Ride the Lightning and Justice for All Master Puppets, all
(06:47):
that stuff, it's like they really didn't move their sound
towards what was happening in like the Sunset Strip or
like they they definitely didn't like towards Motley Crue and Poison.
They actually went like the opposite direction and in cut
(07:07):
and in some ways like they defined what we even
think classic metal is. And so to me it's like
they're sort of regardless there are which is not the
point of this song that the actually it sort of
will become the point of the song. As our conversation evolves,
they do have some ridiculous moments in their history. Now
(07:30):
the arc of any band that's around the song probably will,
but they have some moments like the whole Reload thing
where they basically like try to become like a Lallapalooza
band and they cut their hair and they're wearing eyeliner.
There was like Load and Reload was like and now
is in like the mid nineties, bridging like grunge to
what becomes new metal. What's interesting to me, I don't
(07:51):
want to start in like six different directions. I'll come
back to this, but what I think all that stuff
when I was growing up, Like I remember seeing the
video for one their first music video, black and white,
like that them plane and like an airplane hangar in
the footage of Johnny gets Your Gun the guy who's
lost all his limbs and an explosion in a war,
and I was like, I remember, I don't I hope
(08:11):
he's not embarrassed that I share this. But my younger
brother Dan, we were kids, we would watch MTV and
we would also be allowed to like order one video
each sometimes from the box, which was this service you
could like order it was like three dollars for three videos,
and you could like request whatever videos you wanted to watch.
It was kind of a cool user interface thing, pre
internet thing on a local cable in Brooklyn. And I
(08:33):
remember watching the video for one and we were like scared,
Like we were both authentically scared. It was like watching
like a Freddy Krueger movie or something. We were like
really scared, Like he was like upset, you know. So
that the reason I bring those things up is to say, like,
Dan's a fucking coward. No, the reason we stuff is
to say they were like kind of in the context
(08:56):
of popular culture and you know, multinational record industry and
the rest of it, pretty punk. Pretty punk. They were
like dudes wearing like black jeans, black T shirts just
getting up and like playing this blistering music that was
about like death and nightmares and whatever else.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
They crossed that over. That was probably a movement, and
they they are the face that crossed that into mainstream
without question.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
And they also managed to be like the they are
also a lot of that music is pretty fucking great,
Like it's pretty bracing. I'm not like the most scholarly
or I wouldn't they claim to being the biggest Metallica fan.
There are definitely people in my life that are way,
way way more with that, but I definitely know like
it's kind of undeniable. And then even with the Black album,
(09:39):
when they do do the MTV thing more robustly and
it becomes a diamond selling giant stadium, even that, it's
just like they took the formula and like.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Slowed it down.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
It's still like heavy, brooding, intense, and it just they
kind of like managed to turn into their own weird
version of pop music. And that's all of that is
the baseline for which Metallica always gets a chancey because
they sort of like they kind of semi invented a thing,
(10:11):
and at worst they crossed over a thing sort of
on their own terms that was in the context in
which it existed profoundly not mainstream. That being said, and
I'll connect that to the song and then I'll turn
it over because I've been talking too long. This was
beautiful about cook Chef cook about this song. Actually, why
did just briefly say something? We opened about Lingo and generations.
(10:35):
I'm forty four. We opened for the front Bottoms on
tour last year, most recently a short tour out to
the West Coast, and after one of the shows, I
would go to the merch table and sell merchant and
hang out. And there was these kids at these shows,
like fifteen year old kids. And this kid came up
to me in Kansas City and was like when you
came out, I was like, who's this old dad? But
then you played and I was like, damn, he's eating
(10:56):
right now. That dude just ate and I was like,
I didn't really eat like I was like usually after
the show because I don't want to get like sick
er stitches in my tomue tum anyway. So the the
But that's just to say nothing about the song. The
thing about the song that's kind of cool is when
it starts, you're reminded of everything we just talked about.
(11:18):
There's like different there's parts of this song where you're like,
all right, Metallic of rules, this is just like blistering
stampede of like crazy, you know, muted, like he's like
choking the symbol, and yeah, riff riff after riff after
riff after riff, You're like, oh yeah, right, like nuclear assault.
Metallica is all about like just like the best ship
(11:40):
by them is like scorched Earth.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I agree, And in fact Headfeel's voice is like the
same as it was in a lot of ways. It's
just in the past. They soaked all of this in
reverb and this is dry, Like his vocal is super dry,
and I think they're going for that and.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
We'll get to this, We'll get to the fish its
own section.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, but finish your ear yet. That's it.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
That's it. It's just it is. It has all the
hallmarks of that. Maybe we could transition into we can
waffle back and forth. There's no rules between chance and
anti chance. You are also aware from the very beginning,
whether you are even in touch with this awareness or not.
I bet somebody who knows nothing about anything we're talking
about would hear this and there would be a moment
where the beg kind of sounds crazy, and not just
(12:25):
like the riffage, I mean like the sound you're like,
it kind of sounds crazy, and the snare drum sound is,
let's get into it, canonically catastrophically terrible. It's like something
that if you were in like a Reddit forum about Metallica,
I promise you there is a seven hundred page thread
(12:47):
about the snare drum sound on this record and this song.
It's the thing people talk about who are like aware
of their band. What the fuck the choice was to
make that the snare drum sound for this whole record
is so crazy to me. It sounds like it's so
abrasive and such a like distancing agent from the music.
Every time he hits it, I'm like, ugh.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
My speculation is that I think Lars is maybe King Herb,
and he's a King Herb, and I think he really
needs to stand out and like hear his voice, like
even in that documentary, he's always like sitting on a
table with like crossed legs, like he's always doing something extra,
as the kids say, And this is that this is
(13:30):
his embodiment of like how can I stay? How can
I like put myself into this? And it's always to
the detriment in my opinion of like the music, like
or or to the environment or in the documentary you
see like in the environment, or even like the napster thing.
The napster thing is crazy because he's like it's the
thing that gets brought up. He says, like he's like
(13:50):
every time that my name comes up. It's the Napster
thing even to this day, which is insane amazing, but
it's it's that's the same thing. It's like he went
all in. He made a big swing on the snare
or on Napster or in these arguments he made.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Hating James Hetfield apparently, like seemingly in that documentary, you're
just like you really, yeah, it's he's he's rough. He
seems rough.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
He's a barnacle. That's like on this band. That's like,
you know, it's like is it part of the ship
if it's been there forever? But it's but yeah, the
Napster thing was great. Remember how Sean Parker wore that
Metallica hat when he like came out at the VMA's.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I do that's like critical? Uh you know gen X
millennial CUSP content was like, yeah, I was. I was.
You were probably like two you were.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I was watching it, watching it. I think I was
closer videos was watching it going getting idea.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Let me descrate this.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Head spinning around when you're talking about music videos. I
was definitely thinking that one. That one was scary, Like I.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Whole thing was. I was a little older by then.
I actually feel like if I was to watch some
of there's apparently like unedited or different edits of that
nine inch nowl stuff that's intentionally way more like stuff
that would have never been showed on TV as like
flirting with like kind of like approximating like snuff films
(15:22):
like esque things, and you're like there's something about that
that's so funny that I'm like, I'm all, I'm like, wow,
that's you know, I really get it, like pushing and
the outer limits of a particular kind of psychology. And
there's also a part of me it's like, what the.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Fuck are you doing? That's gross?
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Like yeah, yeah, like okay, that's cool. Like we bought
Charles Manson's house and that's where we made the record.
I'm like, all right, cool.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
You know I remember people being like gg Allen like
shit on stage and you're like why, like is he okay?
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Dude? You just reminded me of and no. The answer
to that was no, he was not okay. But the
something with gg Allen that was like I remember someone
showing me something like a late fucked up night at
someone's apartment and they were like, oh, I got this
VHS tape of Gglen doing this like, and I was like, okay,
I was like whatever I was, whatever I was engaging
(16:14):
with at that time chemically, and I was like kind
of like a hostage, like sitting on this person's couch
and they put on some shit that I was like,
I don't think I can still remember it today twenty
three years later, but I was like I never needed
to see that, and I never need to see it again,
and certainly I don't need it to be on like
(16:35):
a TRL or whatever. The same anger thing, the snare thing,
the Lars thing, the needing to stand out there. I mean, look,
(16:57):
the thing is they probably it's the ambition fuel whatever.
Lars is clearly like they were a kind of anti
rock star, right because they were like playing these huge places,
but they weren't like in the context in which they exist.
Now that gets changed, we'll get there in a minute,
(17:19):
but in the time in which they're coming, like, you know,
their first platinum record, I think the first platinum one
was Injustice for All and they get nominated for a
Grammy for that and they play at the Grammys and
it's a moment like it's like they play one at
the Grammys in like nineteen eighty nine, and people are
like whether I like that or not? That was racing
and like now it's the famous thing where they lose
(17:41):
the Metal Grammy to Jethrow Toll.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Oh, I don't even remember this.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
It's a big, like funny thing because it was like
Jethrow Toll's like they have a flute, you know. It's
like not a metal band at all. And they were
like a band from twenty years whatever. It was a
classic Grammys thing where they rewards something from twenty years earlier,
where it's like Denzel gets it for training day because
he should have gotten it from Malcolm X, but they
gave it to somebody else, you know whatever. Anyway, gotcha.
(18:08):
But like there's this they really were like they weren't
Axel Rose, they weren't Michael Jackson, they weren't like, you know,
Cindy Lauper. They weren't Debbie gibbson whatever was like happening.
But they weren't like also like these sons of strip
bands with the teased hair and whatever. They were something
very different to that. They also couldn't really call them
a punk band because no punk bands were operating at
(18:31):
that level of commercialism, and because a punk band would
have made the same to anger one third as long.
They would have thrashed through all of those parts and
they would have been like songs over after two minutes.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
But you know metal's thing, one of its things is
it's like excesses arrangement wise or whatever, epic long yeah, yeah,
and it starts with what you started with. It's also
meant to be Maybe this is another way in which
they're meant to stand out, or he's meant to stand out.
It's supposed to be something you're like, Wow, you marvel
at the dexterity of how Lars can be playing blast beats.
(19:04):
For the other thing is every drummer I know, for
what it's worth is like Lars sucks.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yes, it's really crazy. Like I watch sometimes like these
like memes online of things, and there's a guy that
I really do like. He adds Lars esque drums to
like other songs, and I've seen that he's so good
at it, and it really feels like Lars and he
makes faces like Lars. Yes, it's like of like TikTok
e Instagram videos. It's a section I really like.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
It's really so clearly done. The research that's what's great
about it?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
He must be a fan actually even though he's making
fun of it, but like he to listen to it
so much, or actually they're a really interesting band that
I think people who love Metallica can hate Lars and
still love Metallica.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
I think there's people who, in fact, you're right, and
I think that there's people who it's like Neil Young
or something. There are people who like Neil Young's their guy,
but one of the baseline things is that they're like,
I feel like I'm saying bassline a lot in this episode.
One of the fundamental of being a serious Neil Young
fan is that you have to concede that there is
(20:05):
just a bunch of absolute garbage in there as well.
The heights are arguably unmatched in some way in in
his genre. And you hear a Neil Young song and
inside of three seconds you know it's a Neil Young song.
The way he plays the guitar, the way he sings it.
It's But also there's like whole records that you're like,
(20:27):
I can't fuck with that at all. And I think
there are Metallica fans who feel that way about various
segments of Metallica's recorded output. But I think is also
interesting about this song though, is that it reflects. It's
one of those moments, which I think we've talked about
at some point before. I feel like we have one
of those moments where a genre defining band, in the
(20:50):
fitful exercise of trying to maintain its relevance and stature,
starts to reflect the things it influenced to some degree.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Oooh okay, oh yeah, let me get that straight. Yeah,
So you're saying that, like, this band that influence all
these bands is now referencing bands that it influenced.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Exactly and what so specifically for me in this song
the choices you talked about about the snare sound and
the totally dry vocal thing that's actually I think meant
to be a kind of There's two things that are
happening at the same time. One is, and I'll finish
the thing about what I just said, it's it's related though.
One is they're mistaking I think this one subjective what
(21:33):
they're making. A mistake that is built around this is
going to be a return to form. We're going back
to like our roots. It's like they make this mistake
and assumption that like in making these certain sonic choices,
they're like going back to their roots. Like it's like
we're gonna go and it's gonna be no reverb on anything.
It's just going to be like super serrated and nasty,
(21:55):
and we're in fact we're going to use this like
crazy pinging snare sound. It's just gonna be so abrasive
and and then so doing. Actually it's just like doesn't
really sound like them or like anything you really want
to hear. Actually, and for all of James Hetfield's strengths
as a vocalist, I don't know that you really need
his voice laid that there. It's not like it's like,
(22:18):
I don't know, such a pure instrument that you're like, oh,
it's like hearing Sam Cook without any anything, any adornment,
or Marvin Gay or something. But I think that what
the moments where you hear the influence of the things
they helped influence the verses that sane, anger, reck whatever.
(22:40):
It's like clean tone, arpeggiation, halftime that's straight up like
heart shaped box lithium that kind of like that kind
of like grunge, alternative rock, slow it down, clean it up.
Even the vocal melody and the way it's like repeat.
It's this kind of very repetitive and then when they
(23:02):
step on the pedal, things get loud. Hallmark of all
that loud soft loud thing. They go new metal with
it with the person.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
You push it.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Out, you push it out. It's like some system of
a down limb biscuit thing. That to me is maybe
my biggest issue with it. It doesn't feel like motel.
No chance there, no yeah, perfect, no chance.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
There t shirts made, no chance there, no chance there.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Smush it out.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
You smush it out, it says on the back. Also
you to smush it out. Yeah, blush it out.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
But I rush it out and slush it out.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
But no, that is so true. That is so new metal,
and it doesn't fit them at all. But it's interesting.
I watched the video. They have the new bassist who
feels very new metal. That guy I forget his.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Robert Trujillo or something. Yeah, yeah, he came from suicidal tendencies.
I think, yes, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, But he feels the most new metal of the band,
and they do that.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Weird crab walk thing. Yeah, he like plays the bass
at his feet and he's like doing it.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yay, especially to go from Jason Newstead right from him.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
For Jason Newst, I do seem like a nice guy. Basically,
they told they like mixed the bass out of Injustice
for All, the first album he plays bass on after
Cliff Burton dies, and it's to this day it's still
this thing where he's like, I can't really hear anything
I'm doing on that record. And that record also sounds
crazy because it's all metal riffs, thrash, you drumming, and
(24:37):
you're like, is there bass guitar on any of this?
Like what is this anyway? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Wild? So yeah, that's so that You're right, that is
so new metal. I think there's all There's like some
other moments too that I think that that tone that
you're mentioning that is also sort of Nirvana is also
like I kept thinking, like pod or like these other
bands really like have this, like I have this sort
of dryness to the even even I even wrote down
(25:05):
Rage against the Machine, especially like their later stuff like
their their their records that came out early two thousands,
like I think that, and I actually I think that's
more of an engineer and producer choice. I think it's
more of his choice than you know, to keep it
so that w and I get it, because when you're
(25:25):
listening to the radio and it's corn and it's limp
biscuit to drop in the quintessential old school metallica sound
will feel like a throwback, whereas you want people to
know this is new and we wanted to it, want
it should feel. I can understand him thinking it should feel,
you know, contemporary, and I can understand why you would
make that choice. But within that I think you tweak.
(25:47):
I think you put a little bit of reverb on
the vocals something. Yeah, I think the whole thing that
you're you're touching on there is actually like a really
fertile subject in general about entertainment industry period, and.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
You see it. Maybe you see it in music most clearly.
It's slightly different than like maybe the arc for certain
actors or like people who make things in other very
highly visible entertainment mediums and music. The zeitgeist moves so
fast that when someone is perceptibly moving after it, like
(26:23):
trying to stay in relevance, and they're like, you know,
kind of aging out of that, it's really like you're like, oh,
I see you, I see you. You're trying to like
it's like the Steve b Shemy meme, like of the
Hello fellow kids, and he's like, you know, Steve BUCHEMI
and like backwards hat and whatever. Like it feels like
(26:45):
those self conscious choices to try and keep up with
the like whatever is usually to diminishing returns.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
My question to that is, do you think that still
exists as much as it had? Because with that, with
you know, without like what the radio was, especially at
this time and throughout the radio on to turn the
radio up, that's my favorite Metallica song. When this was
the the main thing was to get on the radio
and to fit in with the radio. People were trying
(27:15):
to fit in with the radio. But now the radio
is basically you know, it's it's it's a lot of
talk now and in a good way. Like I think
it's it's less of it's less of a of like
I mean, I'm sure it's still cataploat ploats.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
I love that Cataploads is a good band name.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Well it's cataploats. I'm sure it still pushes these bands
forward in a you know, in a way it's still
it's still there. But yeah, do you think that there's
this modern thing of like I got to get on
that playlist?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yes, I know that that is true. Talk to me
about I can't give you clearly, I can't give you
l Ron Hubbard. I clearly can't make can't give you
inside information with respect, so like it having a propulsive
cataplosive success for my commercial career. But I can tell
(28:06):
you the game has absolutely largely become like upon release
of single one from forthcoming album or whatever collection of songs,
EP whatever, like if you are of any sort of
I mean, and I'm actually gonna go like like like
people my wrung or even like a little lower in
(28:26):
the food chain. It is really about like what playlists
did you get?
Speaker 2 (28:32):
And like where I mean, and you know, being used
on TikTok through like in the background of us, you know,
like that trendy that listen.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
If any of you fucking chancers are like somehow you know,
either yourself or adjacent to a uh influenza influence influenza,
please put any song of either of ours on there,
because it would be nice to make that cool bill.
But yeah, I feel like uh a billion or just
(29:03):
like one bill, like it's one bill is one bill? Yeah,
one cool bill is one bill. I saw a Snoop
Dogg on this subject. I saw did you see this?
It was pretty funny. He was like, and that guy,
he was like, can someone please, someone must ask him
a question at some press conference thing he was doing.
They're like, you know about Spotify, And he was like,
can someone please explain to me how the fuck we
make money off of this? Like I had seventy two
(29:26):
million streams of whatever last year and I made forty
six thousand dollars. Like, if I'm doing that, what about
these kids that are playing like two hundred thousand streams? Like,
someone can explain to me how you don't get a
million dollars off a billion streams or whatever. I'm I
would love to know. And he's like at the end,
he's like, I mean, I don't know. I don't even
know who runs this shit. Are you in the room
(29:47):
right now? If someone who runs Spotify is in the
room right now? But yeah, clearly no. I was talking
about a single bill. If you can get us a single.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
Single bill, okay.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
I also think radio, like everything else, has become a
much more splintered game. And I think it does still exist,
and it does still but I think the what's it
called the platforms and the oh there's a word I'm
looking for for like what they're programming, what style, what
genre or whatever, what each of these stations represents. I
(30:30):
do think terrestrial radio is like in a lot of
ways diminished. I think for people like me, even for
people like the National Right who sell out like Madison
Square Garden, they don't think they're going to get on
the radio, you know what I mean, Like they're not
even thinking about that. They would get on WFUV and
k XP and all of that, k w K, KCRW,
(30:51):
that whole triple A thing. But like the radio that
we're talking about, that's not a place like almost anybody,
most anybody that's not like an upper upper percent pop artist.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Really it's really interesting because but it has I don't know,
it's it has helped like talk like like the personalities
on the radio. Yes, I mean they have always been,
but you know even more so now like you see
these these kind of like each one has their own crew.
Obviously we have, you know, we're under the Elvis Duran
(31:26):
umbrella and that's that's our crew that's our that's our
Z Morning crew.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
That's right, and that's what we grew up with. And honestly,
don't don't don't step to our crew at all.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I'll fight you.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
I'll fight you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
We'll fight you in the dark.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
I'm madly in anger with you.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
So let's jump back into those lyrics. Maybe this is
how do you think he felt? How do you think
he felt when he wrote down I'm madly in anger
with you, like like madly in love with you. He
switched out love to anger.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Yeah, I think that two things are true for me
at the same time, with this whole record, in this
whole documentary, in this song, and maybe this is where
I can tie my little bow up on this. This
was probably a good thing for this man as a person.
He was going through a sobriety journey. He was going
through a like, uh sort of excavation of trauma journey.
(32:18):
He was going through a facing things down with his
bandmates and colleagues journey. And I think he needed to
write all of this stuff down to get that out.
Now do I think the lyrics fucking fuck it all
and fucking no regrets, which by the way, could have
been an I never seen a baby's hey, sorry or whatever.
(32:39):
There our very first r og shit. I think, uh,
I think that that sounds like Nickelback to me, A
fucking fucking nice it's fucking no regrets.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yes, you're right, that is that is Nickelback. It's also
it's too many fucks in that, you know, like when
a when a kid is like learning him to curse,
and he's like, you fucking motherfucker. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
When we were this is when I was in the
first grade at our Lady of Angels Brooklyn, me and
this kid, John wine Garten, we asked to go to
the bathroom and it's a Catholic school and it's like
silent in the hallways. We walked to and from the bathroom,
and the whole time we were just going fuck fuck
fuck ship ship fuck fuck fuck fucky fuck shit fuck.
And so when we come back, it's silent and our
(33:22):
teacher's just looking at us, and we walk in and
heard everything you said, John, and we both like looked
at each others like the Spider Man me. We were
both like she did it, Like we both got in
a lot of trouble, had to bring home a note whatever.
It is exactly like that that's what this is. Like,
it's insane.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I wish she still had the note and like you
framed it in your house.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Maybe I might.
Speaker 5 (33:42):
It says fu fu fuck, it says fuck at all,
fucking no regrets, fucking news, fuck my neck, and then
loves bright Eyes.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
How dided eyes get in here?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Because I was thinking of fuck my face.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I would love a Metallica Bright Eyes Collabo.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yo, he had flea on his last record.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
But that's that's not the same thing now, I guess
it's not.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
It's closer. You get me closer to flee Fuckla California.
And also the thing about the medallion and the news
and you know a lot there, he says, he hangs himself,
which is you know, trigger warning.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Sat Anger. Even just that name so stupid, it's so funny,
Like it's as if any of the other Saints have
an emotion attached to their name. Yeah, it's like Saint Patrick,
you know, Saint Anthony st Anger.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
St Anger of a sissy st Anger you sissy? Yeah, Look, I.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Mean for me with you, I can't. I love it.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
At the end of the day, a push comes to shove.
This is three times too long. Yeah, it has a
number of actually super I'm sure if you saw this
song played live, you'd be like taken in by parts
of its propulsive, aggressive nature. It needs to be sixty
six percent shorter at least, and they need to find
(35:14):
a better snare sound, and they need to put a
little bit of slapback or reaver ab on his voice.
And then we've got a song that I'm not like,
is it Master of Puppets? No, but it would be like, wow,
that's a really good late mid period metallic.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
So there's a lot of metal. I like, like, I
don't think people look at me and they're like, there's
the metal god. But I definitely look at you and
say that you better.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
I say it all the time. I say it's Eadie
all the time, like you know, Casey the metal God.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah, Like, how was she doing since the weed brownies?
Who forced down?
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Oh yeah, listeners from the last episode. Last episode, I
actually forced my daughter to have some weed brownies and
she's you know that story about the person who takes
acid and then they turn into a jug of orange
juice and then they like can't tip over Good Parent
Award CPS.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
And she's like, I'm out, So I lost what I
was saying, Oh metal, I like metal a lot, actually,
and there are oftentimes that I want to dial it
all the way up and go to like death metal
or like you know, corrosion of conformity, like these bass
like when I'm in the mood for it, I want
it to be like it's like there's lots of pulp
(36:20):
orange juice, and then there's like some pulp. I like
lots of pulp, yes with metal, and this song gives
me a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
A lot of pulp in it, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
It's there's a lot of moments that remind me of
like what I like about metal. It's heavy, and it's
like it really does sometimes push you, like I bet
you it's a great song to like work out to
or like totally you know, but like as like a
person who likes how songs are written and like likes
to not you know, tip my hat to that. I
I can't. It's hard from it aside from the fact
(36:50):
that there are all these different parts. But the problem
with is it is that they do those parts so
much it all feels like the same part they do.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
They literally just repeat the song in full three times
and then there's some other stuff that happens too. That's
too much. And I will say it's great to have
a whole bunch of interesting parts. They are capable of that.
They're compelling. They know how to construct their world very compellingly.
But when the change happened from the thrashiness of the
(37:18):
first two minutes to the first sung verse where we're
in that like heart shaped box slash aerials or whatever place,
I laughed out loud. I'd forgotten that. That's I was like,
the transition is so abrupt and so crazy, and then
his voice comes in and it's like he's like right here.
It was just like I actually thought it was legitimately funny.
(37:41):
So look, I think we have appropriately excavated Saint Anger,
and I think we've both we've given it plenty of chance,
and also we've called it like we see it. There's
a lot of bullshit going on here too, doggy, I know, arf.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I just I remembered that part in Give Me a Few,
will Give Me Fire get made, which is I think
they I like that song. I actually like that song,
and it does the same thing where it's like you
is pumped it engine. It's that same breakdown, but that
I think they they I think they stomped the landing
on that. Re Listen to that because I think that's
I know that that was a departure for them. They
(38:18):
lost a lot of fans from the heavy metal era
to the alternative. But I think I want to listen
to Fuel after this. I'm you know, you kind of
you you lit the Metallica candle for me again by
like kind of talking about their their backstory and how
that they sort of are a punk rock story.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
They certainly were. They certainly were, and I think it.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Just made me give them a chance.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
I think Metallica there's a lot to be said for it.
Lars is a tough sell. Lars seems to be a
god tear herb and you know, that's tough price of entry.
But Ah and James kind of look, there's herbaceousness abounds
(39:05):
in the band.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
But I think he's actually really charismatic too.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
She was like and he seems like she's also very
sent There's like a lot of sensitivity going on in
there actually, which kind of sometimes I get why Lars
is like, oh my god, but also Lars is kind
of like that just seems kind of like I would
take it to the garbage, kind of delete it. You know.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's regardless, that's what that's his past.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, that's Lars's past.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
That's his influence. So long story short, Madly and like
with you.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
A Mellian Chauncey with you.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
That's really good. It's fun. I really like that one.
Put that on a T shirt.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, anyone out there who wants to make T shirts.
The first one we had was what was the first one?
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I know, the back said I smush it down, you
smash it down, and in the.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Front I should say I'm madly in chance with you. Okay, yeah,
so in the show notes right your home address and
will get the T shirts from you whoever's making the
T shirts, give us your pin code.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah all right, buddy. Well that was really fun. I'm
really I was exciting. And I think like of the songs,
like I don't know, there's attributes about the song that I.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Like more than this is one of the best ones
ones because it's its own thing in a way that's
kind of like yeah, I get.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
It, I know. And it's also like it's a it's
sometimes a genre that like it's like a horror movie
that's like when it's kind of bad. You're almost like, yeah,
that's fine, exactly, they're supposed to be a little bad,
Like you.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Know, that's exactly right. Yes, this isn't we're not looking
for what we're looking for from, like you know, light
album or something. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Carls June. That's our
that's our our. Of course we always, as always we
end the show with a shoutout. I heard you were
(41:02):
a minutaur. I don't have anything else to go.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Okay, we're just rambling at this point. We're keeping it
all in.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
By Chancey
Speaker 2 (41:13):
He's just giving a sha
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com