Sam talks with author Catherine Fogarty about her book "Murder on the Inside: The True Story of the Deadly Riot at Kingston Penitentiary."
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Campsite Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hey everyone, it's me Sam. I'm so excited to bring
you this bonus episode today. When I make these types
of series, they don't always let me do a bonus,
but in this case, they were more than happy to
let us do it. So when I first read Roger's story,
Go Boy, it was honestly the first time I'd ever
(00:27):
heard about the Kingston Penitentiary riot. I remember I read
Roger's chapter about it, and then I spent the whole
next day on the Internet just learning everything I could
about it, and I was like, they sent the military
in to break this thing up? How have I never
heard of this? I was so shocked that I'd gone
(00:47):
my whole life without hearing about it, and I had
so many questions about it. And then I discovered that recently,
in twenty twenty one, someone wrote a whole book about
the Kingston Penitentiary riot called Murder on the Inside, and
I remember thinking, I'm going to want to talk to
(01:08):
that person. That person is Catherine Fogerty, and it was
such a privilege to get to talk to her and
learn more about the circumstances leading up to the riot,
who the key players were, the politics, the fallout, all
these aspects of the riot that we weren't able to
get into in full in our series, but we're fascinating
(01:30):
to us in our research. So right now we're going
to play for you our conversation with the author of
Murder on the Inside, Katherine Fogerty. Enjoy. So we are
here with Catherine Fogerty, the author of Murder on the Inside,
(01:51):
the true story of the deadly riot at Kingston Penitentiary.
She's an author and television producer and fellow podcaster with
her show A Story Hunter, and we're very happy to
talk with her today about the infamous Kingston Pantentiary riots
of nineteen seventy one. Catherine, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Thank you great to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
So what is your connection to the KP riot and
how did you come to write the definitive book about it?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Good question, No connection so to speak, don't.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I don't have a father or grandfather that you know,
spent time in KP. Nothing like that. Honestly, I just
I found the story accidentally years ago. It was a
little little piece in the globe of mail this you know,
this day in history, and there was just something about it.
That really, you know, really compelled me to you know,
(02:52):
cut that little piece of paper out and save it.
And then a few years later, I was I was
doing a Master's of Fine Arts and Creative nonfiction writing
and I needed a book proposal, so I remembered this,
you know, this little blurb about this this riot. And
I think what really struck me initially was the fact
that as a Canadian, I had never heard about this
(03:14):
riot and it happened to be in the same year
that the Attica riot happened. And everybody you know knows
about Attica always heard of it. But why had we
not heard of, you know, one of the worst prison
riots in Canadian history. So that's what really struck me.
This was not an easy thing to research by any means.
And uh, you know what happened from from the get
(03:36):
go was you know, the doors, the doors were slamming
very quickly. Uh So as soon as I started asking questions,
as soon as you know, that first time I went
up to Kingston, you know, I was like all fresh
and excited and you know, went over to the museum
and said, hey, you know, I'm here and I'm going
to write this story. And they're like yeah, no, you're
not because we're not going to give you any information,
(03:58):
like and they were dead face like, no, no, sir,
we don't have any information on that. And then like
you've got to be kidding me. No, they those those
doors were shut. So you know, I call it my
normal Ray moment that you know, as soon as they
said no, I said, yeah, we're going to keep going
because yeah, that that really inspired me because it's like
(04:21):
at that point is I you know, it's like at
that point, it's like forty six years after the fact,
right now, it's fifty fifty four I had I was
naive and thinking this is a long time ago, you know,
let's open up, let's open up these books, and absolutely not.
The Correctional Services is still a very very opaque secret
society and they still to this day do not want
(04:43):
anybody looking in.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Mm hmm. So the the riot was a sort of
gigantic release of a pressure that was building inside of KP.
And what was the growing tension that ultimately led to
the riot.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Well, there were several factors. So we're talking, we're going
back to April nineteen seventy one, the late sixties, early seventies,
was a time of tremendous change with respect to civil rights,
and you know, that started penetrating behind the penitentiary walls.
You know, as one of the prisoners said famously at
(05:23):
the time, you've taken our civil rights, but we want
our human rights. And did those human rights, you know,
stop at the prison door. So this is something that
was bubbling. A lot of these prisoners were young, young men,
and they were aware of the greater cultural shifts that
were happening even from behind prison doors. And then, of course,
(05:46):
one of the other factors that was in place at
the time was Kingston Penitentiary that had opened in eighteen
thirty five was supposed to close that year, nineteen seventy one,
and they were transferred and all of the inmates to
these new super max prisons, the first of its kind
in Canada, which was Millhaven Penitentiary. And this was this
(06:10):
was terrifying to the inmates. As old and as archaic
as as Kingston pen was behind those limestone walls, they
knew what it was, but this, this supermax with all
sorts of different systems. They were terrified of what this
meant for them and did this mean even you know,
(06:30):
more restrictions with respect to their their their rights, and
of course overcrowding there were over five hundred inmates at
the time, double bunking, things like that that you know,
we're also contributing to what was about to happen.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
What sort of things would they have heard about this
new prison that scared them so much? Like what what
did the supermax mean at the time, and what sort
of things would they have heard about this new place?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Well, you know again, I mean Kingston Penitentiary. I don't
know if you've been up there was archaic prison. I mean,
you know, the old doors and everything that you kind
of envision an old prison to be. But the super
max was we've got some computer systems, We've got some
doors that are you know, a central hub where they're
(07:22):
going to be controlling the doors. There was rumors that
there was going to be listening devices in all of
the cells, Rumors that they would be able to pump
tear gas into all of the cells at any given time.
So again a very very different type of prison.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And what was the moment and saying that the riots
sort of began? What started it?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Well, that day they had actually started transferring several of
the prisoners over to Millhaven.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
They you know, it was.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
A small group of prisoners led by a young man
and Billy Knight, and they decided that it was you know,
now or never. So, you know, they were very clever
in what they did with respect to you know, using
the movement of prisoners to launch this riot. And there
(08:15):
was only you know, half a dozen of them that
were able to overtake the guards as they were being
transferred from the gymnasium back to their cells one night,
and so within minutes, you know, they had control of
the entire prison and then they took six six guards hostage.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
And what were the first what was happening in the
first hours of the riot, Like once they once they
overtake the first few guards, like where do they head
and what happens next?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, So what ends up happening is that they've got
these guards and they put together what they eventually called
the Prisoner's Committee, which was this this group of men
because they realized right away that these guards that they
had taken, they wanted to keep them safe. There wasn't
the intention of killing these guards because they these were
their bargaining chips for what they were going to eventually
(09:08):
start start to work on. So they realized that they
very quickly had to protect these guards. So they created,
you know, a group of these men's that became the
protectors of the guards. They hid these guys away. They
put them actually in prisoner's uniforms to disguise them because
(09:28):
because again the different prisoner factions were going wood would
and did start forming very very quickly. So as they said,
they knew that they were going to the most important
thing was to protect those those guards.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So were they able to free all the other inmates.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yes, they were able to get the keys from guards
and then it was just it was just like a
domino effect, so they were able to again get everybody, uh,
and then a lot of them formed, came to the
dome area, this very central location, and many of them,
i mean, they had no idea what was even going
on when this started, so they quickly had to organize
(10:10):
themselves into you know, as they said, different groups and
factions as to how they were going to manage this.
You know, when at the first the small group initiated this,
I mean, they didn't realize what they were getting themselves
involved in, what they were taking on, which was control
of over five hundred inmates in horrible conditions, and what
(10:31):
that was going to look like twenty four hours or
forty eight hours later. And of course it was not
going to be a good situation. So they had to,
as they said, quickly decide and start figuring out how
they were going to manage this.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Right, So that was all happening inside the prison. What
is the sort of reaction when when news spreads that
the prison has fallen? What's happening outside the walls?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
You know, to summarize them, I would say what started
happening right from the get go was a lot of misinformation,
which you know, I think, I think we still deal
with these days when you know, different events. Events happened
because what with respect to the prison, the prison was
locked down, Uh, so nobody was getting in or out.
(11:18):
They called back all the all the guards that were
off duty at the time, of course, they called them
them all back. And what I discovered later on when
I was talking to any of these guards, I mean,
they really didn't know what was going on because they
were never inside the prison. They were they were on
the outside. Uh. And then of course the Kingston Police came,
the opp came and you know, then within a short
(11:41):
period of time, they you know, they decided they were
going to call in the in the military.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Uh so, uh, you know, in not not.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Too long a time, you had you know, hundreds of
heavily armed guards, sorry, soldiers surrounding this prison with with
tanks and helicopters above. And uh, it was certainly quite
a quite a scene.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Did the media catch hold of it right away? And
was it?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Did?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Did this become a national story immediately? Or did they
try and keep it quiet at first?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
No?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
I don't you know, they didn't.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
They weren't really able to keep it quiet for too long.
And of course, you know, the media was was very
different at that time, and one of the individuals that
ended up going into the prison to negotiate was a
newspaper man himself. So within you know, within a day,
I'm just trying to think back, you know, all those headlines. Yeah,
(12:37):
within within twenty four hours, it was it was front
page news and uh, you know, of course things didn't
travels as quickly as they do now with social media,
but it was it was definitely, you know, a national story.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
So you you mentioned that there was committees and there
was negotiating who were the sort of key figures on
either side of the negotiations and what sort of things
were the inmates advocating for.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
M Well, basically, when they the first thing that they
did is they said, we want, you know, the press
to come. They invited the press. They wanted as as
they said, we want the world to see inside, come
inside here and see what we how we live and
what we're dealing with. So that was the most important
(13:29):
thing for them. And you know, of course the correctional
services did not want that to happen, and they still
don't let that happen to this day, but they really
had no choice. So ultimately they had to let allow
a few newspaper newsmen in with cameras and then what
(13:49):
they asked what they wanted was you know, a citizens
committee to work with them to negotiate. They didn't want,
they didn't trust, you know, negotiating with prison officials, so
they wanted they asked for you know, some people to
come in and those were, as they said, a newsman
(14:10):
by the name of Ron Haggard, and then the other
general were mostly lawyers that were involved. So they brought
these these men to the prison to start these negotiations.
So there was the Prisoner's Committee, uh, and what they
called the citizens committee.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
So when the newsmen go in and they take photos
of what's happening inside the pen and the demands are
getting out to the public, what is the publics are they?
Are they sympathetic or were they sympathetic right away or
did it take a few days or was it sort
of the reaction to this sort of split.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I mean, I think, you know, there's always going to
be a group that were sympathetic. So yes, there were
definitely a group, and those groups started showing up outside.
So as they said, you've got these heavily armed military
men outside, and then you know, as the story is
getting out, you're getting you know, some some young people
and some other people that are you know, interested in
(15:09):
what's going on coming to see. And of course then
you've got a lot of you know, gawkers as well
that are coming to see. So you've got quite a
diverse group of people out there.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Was one of the big concerns the safety of the guards,
Like did it seem like the guards were in danger?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Absolutely? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
When they took the guards hostage, they uh, you know,
as they said, the intention was for them to be
used as bargaining chips. But again, they soon realized that
they were going to have a lot of difficulty protecting
them because, of course, there was another group within the
prison that was much more violent and didn't really care
(15:51):
about what was happening with respect to negotiations. They just
they wanted their you know, their pound of flesh. So
they were intent on getting to these guards. As I
write in the book, I you know, I ended up
meeting one of those guards who was the only one
that was still still alive. And when I met him,
it was probably forty six years after the fact, and
(16:14):
I mean, this man, you know, Steele was in tears
reliving that that scenario. Carrie Boschell, who was the youngest
guard that was that was taken hostage at the time.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Wow. So there's there's sort of this period where there's
the chaos of the early moments of them all getting
out of like taking down the prison, and then there's
this sort of diplomacy phase and then a few days
go by, what sort of happens next with the conditions
(16:47):
inside there? And does it feel like they're working toward
a resolution? Like is it obvious how this is going
to end.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, yeah, well I was. I don't think it was
ever going to end well, you know, one way or
the other. But yeah, so as the negotiations are continuing
and and these people are working very very hard that
the gentleman on the Citizens Committee were absolute heroes. What
ends up happening between the prisoners is these vying factions
(17:18):
for control. And the gentleman that sort of instigated the riot,
Billy Knight, he was he was quickly losing control. I mean,
he was somebody that you know, I think acted before
he thought in some respects, he didn't know what he
was getting himself into and didn't have the ability to
(17:41):
continue to manage what was happening. So fortunately one of
the other prisoners, a gentleman by the name of Barry Mackenzie,
was able to step up and take control and he
started working towards, you know, menning these different factions. Uh.
(18:02):
But of course, the conditions in the prisons as every
hour continues, I mean they're just getting worse and worse.
I mean they're trying to get food in some of
the politicians are refusing that.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So so you've got all these different groups.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
You've got the prisoner's group, you've got the Citizens Committee,
and then you've got these groups outside which consist of
the penitentiary brass uh and then politicians you know, all
the way up to the solicitor solicitor general. So everybody's
playing off of everybody. You've got, you know, what's what's
the expression, too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak.
(18:39):
The politicians or you know, saying, you know, we're not
going to negotiate. And the men that are inside in
the Prisoner's Committee that are in there observing what is
going on and visiting the prisoners inside, you know, are saying,
you know, just here's you know, here's what they're asking for.
They're asking for immunity from prosecution. They're asking that you know,
(19:02):
they not be.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Attacked.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
They were asking for their physical safety if they leave
the prison. And so those negotiations are going back and forth,
and you know, one the right hand is not necessarily
you know, saying and agreeing with the left hand. So
there's a lot of confusion for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, you described these people on the Citizens Committee as heroes,
Like why do you describe them that way?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Because they didn't have to do this. First of all,
they were putting their own lives at risk. One of them,
I think it was Desmond Morton, who just had you know,
this man had just had a recent heart attack, so
he was definitely putting his life at risk. Several of
them were lawyers and they had represented some of these prisoners,
(19:50):
so they had a better understanding of what their lives
were like, and they worked tirelessly to try to to
negotiate the peace that needed to be put in place
to prevent you know what happened, say at Attica. I mean,
(20:11):
they knew that if the military came in, I mean,
it was going to be an absolute bloodbath. They knew
that that was not the solution. And yes, you know,
do you how do you negotiate a prison riot? Well,
obviously very carefully.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
They really really.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Worked hard to try to make you know, the public
and these these politicians understand like this is the best
case scenario. You know, there has to be some give
and take here. Yeah, they were in such a difficult,
difficult position.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
So, yes, we've talked about the diplomacy phase, and then
there's the sort of all hell breaks loose. Phase. Can
you tell us sort of about the final act of
the riot and how it ultimately ended?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
So again you've got all this different communication, broken telephone,
so to speak. So what's happening in the it's getting
very volatile inside. And what's happening in the prison is
that this this rogue group of very violent inmates. They
believe that the military is going to come in. They're
all probably going to get killed. So you know what,
(21:41):
let's have, you know, our last hurrah, and they're they're
they're out for blood. So they decide that they're going
to round up what they call the Undesirables, which is
a segregated group of sex offenders, and they march sixteen
(22:01):
of these men into that central dome area and they
tie them to chairs and proceed to beat them. The
gentlemen that are on the prisoner's committee, they've lost control
of this group. They cannot They tried desperately to stop it.
They had tried to protect these men, but eventually they
lost control. So there is nothing they can do at
(22:24):
that point. You know. An interesting aside to this when
we talk about Roger Karen, when I began this story
and read Roger's book Bingo. Of course, when you read
what happened that night with the Undesirables, it's.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Quite quite graphic.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
It's very violent, and you know, I just I couldn't
believe it. I happened to be at a luncheon with
a group of retired correctional officers one day up in
Kingston and somebody said to me, you know, don't believe
what Roger Karen wrote because he wasn't even there. I thought, okay,
(23:07):
you know, that's very odd. So at that point I thought, okay, well,
you know, obviously I need to uh confirm everything that
that Roger wrote in his book. So I ended up,
you know, through through a lot of work and a
lot of effort in you know, getting the original trial
(23:28):
transcripts from from the archives. I will go into the
details of you know, the pound of flesh I had
to give to get that information, but I needed that,
you know, I needed those those transcripts.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And what I was able to.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Confirm was there was not a single thing that Roger
Karen had made up or elaborated on. You know, it
was exactly as he as he wrote and then which
I subsequently wrote.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
The details were incredibly her horrific.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
So again, just as aside to that, you know, that
was an interesting thing that I that I went through
in research and writing the book. So this happens, and
then you know, we're in the final hour the government,
the Solicitor General has he's you know, he's saying one
thing to to the Citizens Committee as to what he'll do,
but then on the in public he's saying something else.
(24:24):
So he ends up saying something on the radio that
basically says, you know, we're not negotiating anymore and we're.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Going to attack on Monday morning.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Forgetting that the prisoners had radios in their cells and
so they hear this, of course, and they're like, okay,
you know, we're all basica, we're all dead.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Anyway.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
So I mean, it just came down to the final
final few hours where you know, again the gentleman on
the Citizens Committee and the Prisoner's Committee, we're finally able
to say, you know, do not come in, do not attack,
and you know, let let these let these men out.
So they they brought buses in and started started letting
(25:07):
them out, you know, uh, you know, a few dozen
at a time. So so luckily the all out invasion
military invasion was was averted, but just by just by
a few hours.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Honestly, was this final letting out of the prisoners at
the end of it. Did it come after any concessions made?
Did they have to come to a deal before they
came out.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
They had asked for immunity from prosecution, they had asked
for protection, they wanted more information about mill Haven, things
like that. So the government really didn't you know, promise
that much to them.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I mean, there was an.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
There was an inquiry done afterwards as to what went
wrong and what happened there. You know, they didn't really
fulfill any of their promises. Things even you know, got
worse as as as they left the prison, and they
weren't protected from from retaliation from those, you know, from
prison guards.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So so how close in time was the torture scene
with the undesirables? Was that like the night before it
officially ended?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yes, yeah, right, yeah, And two men were two men
were murdered in that and and many others were obviously
very very severely beaten. I mean, the fact that only
two were killed was a shock. I know when the
when they when the prison riot was over, I mean
they were they were sending like the corners vans up
(26:50):
from Toronto because they assumed that the dozens would be
would be dead.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
So the prisoners come out essentially one at a time,
with your hands up type of very much. There's no
part of the prison that is still usable.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
There was a few sections that they weren't in, like
I believe the part of the hospital. There were a
few sections that had been separated because it was different buildings,
but the main prison was totally destroyed.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
So essentially they had to find a place to put
hundreds of inmates on short notice in the aftermath of this,
and how did they deal with that? Where did they go?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
They just started transferring them to different federal penitentiaries and
even some provincial penitentiaries in the area. And some did,
like there were some that stayed at Kingston, as I said,
in a few of those areas that they were able
to keep control of and maintain, but most of them
were transferred out. Yeah, the prison was you know, after
(27:57):
four days, it was a complete disaster. So most of
them that so then they moved up there. This transferred
to Millhaven. Milhaven wasn't ready though, the sales weren't ready
things like that, so again that became a bigger problem,
or a different problem, I should say.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
So for the prisoners who were the first to arrive
at Millhan after the riot. What sort of welcome was
waiting for them in Millhaven?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Well, there was definitely a welcome wagon waiting. So one
of the biggest issues when they were negotiating the end
of the riot and trying to negotiate a truce was
again they were very concerned about retaliation. They were told like,
you know, that's crazy, that that will never happen. So
what happened when they were bust over to Millhaven? When
(28:46):
they came off those buses, there was a gauntlet of
prison guards waiting for them with their batons and they were,
you know, passed through this gauntlet and beaten. And Ron Haggard,
the newsman, I mean, he wrote about this years later
and he always said one of his biggest regrets was
never getting on that bus to protect them, because again
(29:11):
they were everybody everyone assured them, no, no, that that's
not going to happen.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
But it's exactly what happened.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Did the guards that beat the prisoners in Millhaven? Did
they face any consequences?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
They were charged, Thirteen of them were charged, but they
were which was a first first that that had ever
happened in Canadian history. But of course they were all acquitted.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
It's like an indication of how severe this beating must
have been that out of sight where the power dynamic
is guards and inmates, that it even got out what
had happened there, Like it must have been a very
serious assault.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Yes, I mean, luckily, you know, a couple of the
prisoners were able to content get in touch with their lawyers,
and one of the lawyers being one of the gentlemen
on the Citizens Committee who you know, rushed to mill
Haven to sort of see what was going on and
was refused entry into the penitentiary. So they were certainly
trying to keep that quiet, keep it hidden, but luckily
(30:18):
that they were able to get that information out, and yeah,
they were, you know, very severely beaten.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Roger you've read his books, so he obviously was no
stranger to violence, but he essentially says that of all
the beatings that he took at the worst head trauma
that he suffered was when he arrived at Millhaven.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Yeah, yeah, I mean smash on the head with these batons.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
It was just just horrific.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
At the end of the riot, did anything change in
the penal system, Like, did the inmates successfully get their
message out and affect any kind of change or succeed
in their bid to spread public awareness of the conditions
(31:29):
they were living in.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
That's you know, that's a that's an interesting question. I mean,
it's a yes and no. There were some there were
some changes that were made at the time. I mean
one of the one of the small changes, but it
was a very big change for for inmates at the time,
was the removal of numbers HM on their their prison uniforms, because,
(31:54):
as they had said, one of their issues was, you know,
we want to be treated as human beings, not numbers.
So that was that was one concession that they made.
The Swackhammer inquiry and report that came out. I believe
there was over seven seventy three recommendations, and one positive
(32:14):
recommendation out of that was the creation of the Office
of the Correctional Investigator, which we still have to this day.
But I could take that swack Camera report and I
could create a pile of, you know, many other reports
and investigations that have happened and have been written since
(32:36):
I think that one came out in nineteen seventy three.
Every year, the Office of the Correctional Investigator, you know,
releases a report as to recommendations to improve our correctional services,
but what actually happens is a whole other, whole other thing.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
So yeah, one thing I want to ask you about
is I heard that when they were emerging from the
prison and boarding these buses to head to their next destination,
that there was some public there and some of them
were like celebrating the prisoners for their successful active protest
(33:17):
or whatever however we want to categorize that. Have you
heard anything to that effect or did you learn anything
about like people coming showing up to support the prisoners.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
I mean it wasn't I don't think it was a
large group, but there were definitely groups of younger people
that you know, again, it's nineteen seventy one, so the
issue of you know, civil rights and human rights is
a very prevalent issue that is happening at the time.
So there were definitely groups of young people that had
taken you know, come up on buses from Toronto, et
(33:52):
cetera to support the prisoners. There were groups that showed
up during you know, the various trials that took place
after the fact. So so yes, I mean there was definitely,
I think a stronger awareness as to what was going
on inside that penitentiary and and some of the others.
(34:14):
So so it did open up the doors, uh somewhat,
I think. And I remember reading a lot of you know,
letters to the editor which again where you know, some
were positive, somewhere were we're not so positive. So there
was definitely a you know, a split split reaction to
to what.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Was going on.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Mm hmm. And when you go through the archives, what
are some of like the the lasting images of the
Kingston Riot that that you see in your mind when
you revisit this story.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
M You know, the images that I saw from the
dome where those the undesirables had been chained to these chairs,
that that certainly is is a lasting image for me.
But speaking of images, I mean, one thing I wrote
about is the fact that trying to obtain images from
(35:10):
the riot was very very difficult. I mean, trying to
get anything about it was difficult. And I went up
to I found out that the Kingston wig had that
the newspaper in Kingston obviously had most of the information
and most of those images. And when we went to
the archives at Queen's University one day, we discovered that
(35:34):
somebody had removed all of the negatives from those four
days from the newspaper archives and even the archives. I mean,
she was absolutely shocked because she didn't she didn't know,
but somebody had come in and removed all those original images,
which is pretty strange. Yeah. So, uh and you know
(36:01):
various images that I had, uh and saw of the
guards after they had been released. I mean, you know,
these men were certainly certainly traumatized m h not you know,
most of them believing that they were never going to
make it out alive.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
M And there seems to be lots of photos of
the condition of the prison at the end of the
riot as well.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, I mean all the plumbing was broken, everything was destroyed,
everything was broken.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, it was. It was unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
When you were doing research for this book, what were
some of the places you were most excited to see?
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Relative Well, the first time I went up, I mean
it was the first time I did the tour. It
was at the you know, sort of the year one
of my research. It was like four or five years,
So that was exciting just to even get in the
prison and kind of understand the layout and uh see
uh see some of the different areas and then I
(37:00):
think about like two years into my research, I did
another tour, and every year I'm not sure where they're
at right now, but they were opening different areas of
the prison. And my book opens in the gymnasium, which
is where the gentlemen were sitting watching a hockey game,
(37:20):
and this is where the riot began. So the second
tour that I did, they had opened a few of
the other areas, and one of them was the gymnasium.
And honestly, I was like a kid in a candy
shop standing in that gymnasium because I had spent, you know,
so much time visualizing this, you know, cinder block, and
(37:42):
trying to find images of it, which I could never find.
So just actually being in that space was was quite
an experience for me.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Catherine, I know you are doing many things all the time.
Do you have anything coming up that we can look
forward to?
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Yeah, I'm just working on my third true crime book.
I released a second one in twenty twenty three, and
I'm going to be releasing another this new book in
twenty and twenty six. Bring a twenty twenty six and
it's about a nineteen sixty nine murder that took place
(38:22):
in Los Angeles of a Canadian and I believe we
may have actually solved this cold case. So it's a
very exciting, exciting story and I'm really looking forward to to.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Getting it out incredible, looking forward to that. Catherine, thank
you so much for doing this with us.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Thank you, it's been great.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Go Boy is a production from Campside Media in partner
with iHeart Podcasts. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Go Boy was written
and hosted by me Sam Mollins. Our producer is Rob
Lindsay of Paradox Pictures. Laine Rose is our senior producer.
(39:18):
Sound design, mix and engineering by Garrett Tiedeman. Original music
by Garrett tiedemant fact checking by Michael Kenyon Meyer. Selected
archival clips are from CBC Licensing. The book Go Boy
was written by Roger Kuran. iHeart Podcasts executive producers are
(39:39):
Lindsay Hoffman and Jennifer Bassett. Campside Media's executive producers are
Josh Dean Vanessa, Gregoriatis, Adam hoff and Matt Cher. A
special thanks to our operations team Doug Slaywyn, Ashley Lawren
Sabina Mara and Destiny Dingle. If you enjoyed Go Boy,
(39:59):
please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
Campsite Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hey everyone, it's me Sam. I'm so excited to bring
you this bonus episode today. When I make these types
of series, they don't always let me do a bonus,
but in this case, they were more than happy to
let us do it. So when I first read Roger's story,
Go Boy, it was honestly the first time I'd ever
(00:27):
heard about the Kingston Penitentiary riot. I remember I read
Roger's chapter about it, and then I spent the whole
next day on the Internet just learning everything I could
about it, and I was like, they sent the military
in to break this thing up? How have I never
heard of this? I was so shocked that I'd gone
(00:47):
my whole life without hearing about it, and I had
so many questions about it. And then I discovered that recently,
in twenty twenty one, someone wrote a whole book about
the Kingston Penitentiary riot called Murder on the Inside, and
I remember thinking, I'm going to want to talk to
(01:08):
that person. That person is Catherine Fogerty, and it was
such a privilege to get to talk to her and
learn more about the circumstances leading up to the riot,
who the key players were, the politics, the fallout, all
these aspects of the riot that we weren't able to
get into in full in our series, but we're fascinating
(01:30):
to us in our research. So right now we're going
to play for you our conversation with the author of
Murder on the Inside, Katherine Fogerty. Enjoy. So we are
here with Catherine Fogerty, the author of Murder on the Inside,
(01:51):
the true story of the deadly riot at Kingston Penitentiary.
She's an author and television producer and fellow podcaster with
her show A Story Hunter, and we're very happy to
talk with her today about the infamous Kingston Pantentiary riots
of nineteen seventy one. Catherine, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Thank you great to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
So what is your connection to the KP riot and
how did you come to write the definitive book about it?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Good question, No connection so to speak, don't.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I don't have a father or grandfather that you know,
spent time in KP. Nothing like that. Honestly, I just
I found the story accidentally years ago. It was a
little little piece in the globe of mail this you know,
this day in history, and there was just something about it.
That really, you know, really compelled me to you know,
(02:52):
cut that little piece of paper out and save it.
And then a few years later, I was I was
doing a Master's of Fine Arts and Creative nonfiction writing
and I needed a book proposal, so I remembered this,
you know, this little blurb about this this riot. And
I think what really struck me initially was the fact
that as a Canadian, I had never heard about this
(03:14):
riot and it happened to be in the same year
that the Attica riot happened. And everybody you know knows
about Attica always heard of it. But why had we
not heard of, you know, one of the worst prison
riots in Canadian history. So that's what really struck me.
This was not an easy thing to research by any means.
And uh, you know what happened from from the get
(03:36):
go was you know, the doors, the doors were slamming
very quickly. Uh So as soon as I started asking questions,
as soon as you know, that first time I went
up to Kingston, you know, I was like all fresh
and excited and you know, went over to the museum
and said, hey, you know, I'm here and I'm going
to write this story. And they're like yeah, no, you're
not because we're not going to give you any information,
(03:58):
like and they were dead face like, no, no, sir,
we don't have any information on that. And then like
you've got to be kidding me. No, they those those
doors were shut. So you know, I call it my
normal Ray moment that you know, as soon as they
said no, I said, yeah, we're going to keep going
because yeah, that that really inspired me because it's like
(04:21):
at that point is I you know, it's like at
that point, it's like forty six years after the fact,
right now, it's fifty fifty four I had I was
naive and thinking this is a long time ago, you know,
let's open up, let's open up these books, and absolutely not.
The Correctional Services is still a very very opaque secret
society and they still to this day do not want
(04:43):
anybody looking in.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Mm hmm. So the the riot was a sort of
gigantic release of a pressure that was building inside of KP.
And what was the growing tension that ultimately led to
the riot.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Well, there were several factors. So we're talking, we're going
back to April nineteen seventy one, the late sixties, early seventies,
was a time of tremendous change with respect to civil rights,
and you know, that started penetrating behind the penitentiary walls.
You know, as one of the prisoners said famously at
(05:23):
the time, you've taken our civil rights, but we want
our human rights. And did those human rights, you know,
stop at the prison door. So this is something that
was bubbling. A lot of these prisoners were young, young men,
and they were aware of the greater cultural shifts that
were happening even from behind prison doors. And then, of course,
(05:46):
one of the other factors that was in place at
the time was Kingston Penitentiary that had opened in eighteen
thirty five was supposed to close that year, nineteen seventy one,
and they were transferred and all of the inmates to
these new super max prisons, the first of its kind
in Canada, which was Millhaven Penitentiary. And this was this
(06:10):
was terrifying to the inmates. As old and as archaic
as as Kingston pen was behind those limestone walls, they
knew what it was, but this, this supermax with all
sorts of different systems. They were terrified of what this
meant for them and did this mean even you know,
(06:30):
more restrictions with respect to their their their rights, and
of course overcrowding there were over five hundred inmates at
the time, double bunking, things like that that you know,
we're also contributing to what was about to happen.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
What sort of things would they have heard about this
new prison that scared them so much? Like what what
did the supermax mean at the time, and what sort
of things would they have heard about this new place?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Well, you know again, I mean Kingston Penitentiary. I don't
know if you've been up there was archaic prison. I mean,
you know, the old doors and everything that you kind
of envision an old prison to be. But the super
max was we've got some computer systems, We've got some
doors that are you know, a central hub where they're
(07:22):
going to be controlling the doors. There was rumors that
there was going to be listening devices in all of
the cells, Rumors that they would be able to pump
tear gas into all of the cells at any given time.
So again a very very different type of prison.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And what was the moment and saying that the riots
sort of began? What started it?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Well, that day they had actually started transferring several of
the prisoners over to Millhaven.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
They you know, it was.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
A small group of prisoners led by a young man
and Billy Knight, and they decided that it was you know,
now or never. So, you know, they were very clever
in what they did with respect to you know, using
the movement of prisoners to launch this riot. And there
(08:15):
was only you know, half a dozen of them that
were able to overtake the guards as they were being
transferred from the gymnasium back to their cells one night,
and so within minutes, you know, they had control of
the entire prison and then they took six six guards hostage.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
And what were the first what was happening in the
first hours of the riot, Like once they once they
overtake the first few guards, like where do they head
and what happens next?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, So what ends up happening is that they've got
these guards and they put together what they eventually called
the Prisoner's Committee, which was this this group of men
because they realized right away that these guards that they
had taken, they wanted to keep them safe. There wasn't
the intention of killing these guards because they these were
their bargaining chips for what they were going to eventually
(09:08):
start start to work on. So they realized that they
very quickly had to protect these guards. So they created,
you know, a group of these men's that became the
protectors of the guards. They hid these guys away. They
put them actually in prisoner's uniforms to disguise them because
(09:28):
because again the different prisoner factions were going wood would
and did start forming very very quickly. So as they said,
they knew that they were going to the most important
thing was to protect those those guards.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So were they able to free all the other inmates.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yes, they were able to get the keys from guards
and then it was just it was just like a
domino effect, so they were able to again get everybody, uh,
and then a lot of them formed, came to the
dome area, this very central location, and many of them,
i mean, they had no idea what was even going
on when this started, so they quickly had to organize
(10:10):
themselves into you know, as they said, different groups and
factions as to how they were going to manage this.
You know, when at the first the small group initiated this,
I mean, they didn't realize what they were getting themselves
involved in, what they were taking on, which was control
of over five hundred inmates in horrible conditions, and what
(10:31):
that was going to look like twenty four hours or
forty eight hours later. And of course it was not
going to be a good situation. So they had to,
as they said, quickly decide and start figuring out how
they were going to manage this.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Right, So that was all happening inside the prison. What
is the sort of reaction when when news spreads that
the prison has fallen? What's happening outside the walls?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
You know, to summarize them, I would say what started
happening right from the get go was a lot of misinformation,
which you know, I think, I think we still deal
with these days when you know, different events. Events happened
because what with respect to the prison, the prison was
locked down, Uh, so nobody was getting in or out.
(11:18):
They called back all the all the guards that were
off duty at the time, of course, they called them
them all back. And what I discovered later on when
I was talking to any of these guards, I mean,
they really didn't know what was going on because they
were never inside the prison. They were they were on
the outside. Uh. And then of course the Kingston Police came,
the opp came and you know, then within a short
(11:41):
period of time, they you know, they decided they were
going to call in the in the military.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Uh so, uh, you know, in not not.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Too long a time, you had you know, hundreds of
heavily armed guards, sorry, soldiers surrounding this prison with with
tanks and helicopters above. And uh, it was certainly quite
a quite a scene.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Did the media catch hold of it right away? And
was it?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Did?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Did this become a national story immediately? Or did they
try and keep it quiet at first?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
No?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
I don't you know, they didn't.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
They weren't really able to keep it quiet for too long.
And of course, you know, the media was was very
different at that time, and one of the individuals that
ended up going into the prison to negotiate was a
newspaper man himself. So within you know, within a day,
I'm just trying to think back, you know, all those headlines. Yeah,
(12:37):
within within twenty four hours, it was it was front
page news and uh, you know, of course things didn't
travels as quickly as they do now with social media,
but it was it was definitely, you know, a national story.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
So you you mentioned that there was committees and there
was negotiating who were the sort of key figures on
either side of the negotiations and what sort of things
were the inmates advocating for.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
M Well, basically, when they the first thing that they
did is they said, we want, you know, the press
to come. They invited the press. They wanted as as
they said, we want the world to see inside, come
inside here and see what we how we live and
what we're dealing with. So that was the most important
(13:29):
thing for them. And you know, of course the correctional
services did not want that to happen, and they still
don't let that happen to this day, but they really
had no choice. So ultimately they had to let allow
a few newspaper newsmen in with cameras and then what
(13:49):
they asked what they wanted was you know, a citizens
committee to work with them to negotiate. They didn't want,
they didn't trust, you know, negotiating with prison officials, so
they wanted they asked for you know, some people to
come in and those were, as they said, a newsman
(14:10):
by the name of Ron Haggard, and then the other
general were mostly lawyers that were involved. So they brought
these these men to the prison to start these negotiations.
So there was the Prisoner's Committee, uh, and what they
called the citizens committee.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
So when the newsmen go in and they take photos
of what's happening inside the pen and the demands are
getting out to the public, what is the publics are they?
Are they sympathetic or were they sympathetic right away or
did it take a few days or was it sort
of the reaction to this sort of split.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I mean, I think, you know, there's always going to
be a group that were sympathetic. So yes, there were
definitely a group, and those groups started showing up outside.
So as they said, you've got these heavily armed military
men outside, and then you know, as the story is
getting out, you're getting you know, some some young people
and some other people that are you know, interested in
(15:09):
what's going on coming to see. And of course then
you've got a lot of you know, gawkers as well
that are coming to see. So you've got quite a
diverse group of people out there.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Was one of the big concerns the safety of the guards,
Like did it seem like the guards were in danger?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Absolutely? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
When they took the guards hostage, they uh, you know,
as they said, the intention was for them to be
used as bargaining chips. But again, they soon realized that
they were going to have a lot of difficulty protecting
them because, of course, there was another group within the
prison that was much more violent and didn't really care
(15:51):
about what was happening with respect to negotiations. They just
they wanted their you know, their pound of flesh. So
they were intent on getting to these guards. As I
write in the book, I you know, I ended up
meeting one of those guards who was the only one
that was still still alive. And when I met him,
it was probably forty six years after the fact, and
(16:14):
I mean, this man, you know, Steele was in tears
reliving that that scenario. Carrie Boschell, who was the youngest
guard that was that was taken hostage at the time.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Wow. So there's there's sort of this period where there's
the chaos of the early moments of them all getting
out of like taking down the prison, and then there's
this sort of diplomacy phase and then a few days
go by, what sort of happens next with the conditions
(16:47):
inside there? And does it feel like they're working toward
a resolution? Like is it obvious how this is going
to end.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, yeah, well I was. I don't think it was
ever going to end well, you know, one way or
the other. But yeah, so as the negotiations are continuing
and and these people are working very very hard that
the gentleman on the Citizens Committee were absolute heroes. What
ends up happening between the prisoners is these vying factions
(17:18):
for control. And the gentleman that sort of instigated the riot,
Billy Knight, he was he was quickly losing control. I mean,
he was somebody that you know, I think acted before
he thought in some respects, he didn't know what he
was getting himself into and didn't have the ability to
(17:41):
continue to manage what was happening. So fortunately one of
the other prisoners, a gentleman by the name of Barry Mackenzie,
was able to step up and take control and he
started working towards, you know, menning these different factions. Uh.
(18:02):
But of course, the conditions in the prisons as every
hour continues, I mean they're just getting worse and worse.
I mean they're trying to get food in some of
the politicians are refusing that.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So so you've got all these different groups.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
You've got the prisoner's group, you've got the Citizens Committee,
and then you've got these groups outside which consist of
the penitentiary brass uh and then politicians you know, all
the way up to the solicitor solicitor general. So everybody's
playing off of everybody. You've got, you know, what's what's
the expression, too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak.
(18:39):
The politicians or you know, saying, you know, we're not
going to negotiate. And the men that are inside in
the Prisoner's Committee that are in there observing what is
going on and visiting the prisoners inside, you know, are saying,
you know, just here's you know, here's what they're asking for.
They're asking for immunity from prosecution. They're asking that you know,
(19:02):
they not be.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Attacked.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
They were asking for their physical safety if they leave
the prison. And so those negotiations are going back and forth,
and you know, one the right hand is not necessarily
you know, saying and agreeing with the left hand. So
there's a lot of confusion for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, you described these people on the Citizens Committee as heroes,
Like why do you describe them that way?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Because they didn't have to do this. First of all,
they were putting their own lives at risk. One of them,
I think it was Desmond Morton, who just had you know,
this man had just had a recent heart attack, so
he was definitely putting his life at risk. Several of
them were lawyers and they had represented some of these prisoners,
(19:50):
so they had a better understanding of what their lives
were like, and they worked tirelessly to try to to
negotiate the peace that needed to be put in place
to prevent you know what happened, say at Attica. I mean,
(20:11):
they knew that if the military came in, I mean,
it was going to be an absolute bloodbath. They knew
that that was not the solution. And yes, you know,
do you how do you negotiate a prison riot? Well,
obviously very carefully.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
They really really.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Worked hard to try to make you know, the public
and these these politicians understand like this is the best
case scenario. You know, there has to be some give
and take here. Yeah, they were in such a difficult,
difficult position.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
So, yes, we've talked about the diplomacy phase, and then
there's the sort of all hell breaks loose. Phase. Can
you tell us sort of about the final act of
the riot and how it ultimately ended?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
So again you've got all this different communication, broken telephone,
so to speak. So what's happening in the it's getting
very volatile inside. And what's happening in the prison is
that this this rogue group of very violent inmates. They
believe that the military is going to come in. They're
all probably going to get killed. So you know what,
(21:41):
let's have, you know, our last hurrah, and they're they're
they're out for blood. So they decide that they're going
to round up what they call the Undesirables, which is
a segregated group of sex offenders, and they march sixteen
(22:01):
of these men into that central dome area and they
tie them to chairs and proceed to beat them. The
gentlemen that are on the prisoner's committee, they've lost control
of this group. They cannot They tried desperately to stop it.
They had tried to protect these men, but eventually they
lost control. So there is nothing they can do at
(22:24):
that point. You know. An interesting aside to this when
we talk about Roger Karen, when I began this story
and read Roger's book Bingo. Of course, when you read
what happened that night with the Undesirables, it's.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Quite quite graphic.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
It's very violent, and you know, I just I couldn't
believe it. I happened to be at a luncheon with
a group of retired correctional officers one day up in
Kingston and somebody said to me, you know, don't believe
what Roger Karen wrote because he wasn't even there. I thought, okay,
(23:07):
you know, that's very odd. So at that point I thought, okay, well,
you know, obviously I need to uh confirm everything that
that Roger wrote in his book. So I ended up,
you know, through through a lot of work and a
lot of effort in you know, getting the original trial
(23:28):
transcripts from from the archives. I will go into the
details of you know, the pound of flesh I had
to give to get that information, but I needed that,
you know, I needed those those transcripts.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And what I was able to.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Confirm was there was not a single thing that Roger
Karen had made up or elaborated on. You know, it
was exactly as he as he wrote and then which
I subsequently wrote.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
The details were incredibly her horrific.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
So again, just as aside to that, you know, that
was an interesting thing that I that I went through
in research and writing the book. So this happens, and
then you know, we're in the final hour the government,
the Solicitor General has he's you know, he's saying one
thing to to the Citizens Committee as to what he'll do,
but then on the in public he's saying something else.
(24:24):
So he ends up saying something on the radio that
basically says, you know, we're not negotiating anymore and we're.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Going to attack on Monday morning.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Forgetting that the prisoners had radios in their cells and
so they hear this, of course, and they're like, okay,
you know, we're all basica, we're all dead.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Anyway.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
So I mean, it just came down to the final
final few hours where you know, again the gentleman on
the Citizens Committee and the Prisoner's Committee, we're finally able
to say, you know, do not come in, do not attack,
and you know, let let these let these men out.
So they they brought buses in and started started letting
(25:07):
them out, you know, uh, you know, a few dozen
at a time. So so luckily the all out invasion
military invasion was was averted, but just by just by
a few hours.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Honestly, was this final letting out of the prisoners at
the end of it. Did it come after any concessions made?
Did they have to come to a deal before they
came out.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
They had asked for immunity from prosecution, they had asked
for protection, they wanted more information about mill Haven, things
like that. So the government really didn't you know, promise
that much to them.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I mean, there was an.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
There was an inquiry done afterwards as to what went
wrong and what happened there. You know, they didn't really
fulfill any of their promises. Things even you know, got
worse as as as they left the prison, and they
weren't protected from from retaliation from those, you know, from
prison guards.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So so how close in time was the torture scene
with the undesirables? Was that like the night before it
officially ended?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yes, yeah, right, yeah, And two men were two men
were murdered in that and and many others were obviously
very very severely beaten. I mean, the fact that only
two were killed was a shock. I know when the
when they when the prison riot was over, I mean
they were they were sending like the corners vans up
(26:50):
from Toronto because they assumed that the dozens would be
would be dead.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
So the prisoners come out essentially one at a time,
with your hands up type of very much. There's no
part of the prison that is still usable.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
There was a few sections that they weren't in, like
I believe the part of the hospital. There were a
few sections that had been separated because it was different buildings,
but the main prison was totally destroyed.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
So essentially they had to find a place to put
hundreds of inmates on short notice in the aftermath of this,
and how did they deal with that? Where did they go?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
They just started transferring them to different federal penitentiaries and
even some provincial penitentiaries in the area. And some did,
like there were some that stayed at Kingston, as I said,
in a few of those areas that they were able
to keep control of and maintain, but most of them
were transferred out. Yeah, the prison was you know, after
(27:57):
four days, it was a complete disaster. So most of
them that so then they moved up there. This transferred
to Millhaven. Milhaven wasn't ready though, the sales weren't ready
things like that, so again that became a bigger problem,
or a different problem, I should say.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
So for the prisoners who were the first to arrive
at Millhan after the riot. What sort of welcome was
waiting for them in Millhaven?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Well, there was definitely a welcome wagon waiting. So one
of the biggest issues when they were negotiating the end
of the riot and trying to negotiate a truce was
again they were very concerned about retaliation. They were told like,
you know, that's crazy, that that will never happen. So
what happened when they were bust over to Millhaven? When
(28:46):
they came off those buses, there was a gauntlet of
prison guards waiting for them with their batons and they were,
you know, passed through this gauntlet and beaten. And Ron Haggard,
the newsman, I mean, he wrote about this years later
and he always said one of his biggest regrets was
never getting on that bus to protect them, because again
(29:11):
they were everybody everyone assured them, no, no, that that's
not going to happen.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
But it's exactly what happened.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Did the guards that beat the prisoners in Millhaven? Did
they face any consequences?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
They were charged, Thirteen of them were charged, but they
were which was a first first that that had ever
happened in Canadian history. But of course they were all acquitted.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
It's like an indication of how severe this beating must
have been that out of sight where the power dynamic
is guards and inmates, that it even got out what
had happened there, Like it must have been a very
serious assault.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Yes, I mean, luckily, you know, a couple of the
prisoners were able to content get in touch with their lawyers,
and one of the lawyers being one of the gentlemen
on the Citizens Committee who you know, rushed to mill
Haven to sort of see what was going on and
was refused entry into the penitentiary. So they were certainly
trying to keep that quiet, keep it hidden, but luckily
(30:18):
that they were able to get that information out, and yeah,
they were, you know, very severely beaten.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Roger you've read his books, so he obviously was no
stranger to violence, but he essentially says that of all
the beatings that he took at the worst head trauma
that he suffered was when he arrived at Millhaven.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Yeah, yeah, I mean smash on the head with these batons.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
It was just just horrific.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
At the end of the riot, did anything change in
the penal system, Like, did the inmates successfully get their
message out and affect any kind of change or succeed
in their bid to spread public awareness of the conditions
(31:29):
they were living in.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
That's you know, that's a that's an interesting question. I mean,
it's a yes and no. There were some there were
some changes that were made at the time. I mean
one of the one of the small changes, but it
was a very big change for for inmates at the time,
was the removal of numbers HM on their their prison uniforms, because,
(31:54):
as they had said, one of their issues was, you know,
we want to be treated as human beings, not numbers.
So that was that was one concession that they made.
The Swackhammer inquiry and report that came out. I believe
there was over seven seventy three recommendations, and one positive
(32:14):
recommendation out of that was the creation of the Office
of the Correctional Investigator, which we still have to this day.
But I could take that swack Camera report and I
could create a pile of, you know, many other reports
and investigations that have happened and have been written since
(32:36):
I think that one came out in nineteen seventy three.
Every year, the Office of the Correctional Investigator, you know,
releases a report as to recommendations to improve our correctional services,
but what actually happens is a whole other, whole other thing.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
So yeah, one thing I want to ask you about
is I heard that when they were emerging from the
prison and boarding these buses to head to their next destination,
that there was some public there and some of them
were like celebrating the prisoners for their successful active protest
(33:17):
or whatever however we want to categorize that. Have you
heard anything to that effect or did you learn anything
about like people coming showing up to support the prisoners.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
I mean it wasn't I don't think it was a
large group, but there were definitely groups of younger people
that you know, again, it's nineteen seventy one, so the
issue of you know, civil rights and human rights is
a very prevalent issue that is happening at the time.
So there were definitely groups of young people that had
taken you know, come up on buses from Toronto, et
(33:52):
cetera to support the prisoners. There were groups that showed
up during you know, the various trials that took place
after the fact. So so yes, I mean there was definitely,
I think a stronger awareness as to what was going
on inside that penitentiary and and some of the others.
(34:14):
So so it did open up the doors, uh somewhat,
I think. And I remember reading a lot of you know,
letters to the editor which again where you know, some
were positive, somewhere were we're not so positive. So there
was definitely a you know, a split split reaction to
to what.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Was going on.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Mm hmm. And when you go through the archives, what
are some of like the the lasting images of the
Kingston Riot that that you see in your mind when
you revisit this story.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
M You know, the images that I saw from the
dome where those the undesirables had been chained to these chairs,
that that certainly is is a lasting image for me.
But speaking of images, I mean, one thing I wrote
about is the fact that trying to obtain images from
(35:10):
the riot was very very difficult. I mean, trying to
get anything about it was difficult. And I went up
to I found out that the Kingston wig had that
the newspaper in Kingston obviously had most of the information
and most of those images. And when we went to
the archives at Queen's University one day, we discovered that
(35:34):
somebody had removed all of the negatives from those four
days from the newspaper archives and even the archives. I mean,
she was absolutely shocked because she didn't she didn't know,
but somebody had come in and removed all those original images,
which is pretty strange. Yeah. So, uh and you know
(36:01):
various images that I had, uh and saw of the
guards after they had been released. I mean, you know,
these men were certainly certainly traumatized m h not you know,
most of them believing that they were never going to
make it out alive.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
M And there seems to be lots of photos of
the condition of the prison at the end of the
riot as well.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, I mean all the plumbing was broken, everything was destroyed,
everything was broken.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, it was. It was unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
When you were doing research for this book, what were
some of the places you were most excited to see?
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Relative Well, the first time I went up, I mean
it was the first time I did the tour. It
was at the you know, sort of the year one
of my research. It was like four or five years,
So that was exciting just to even get in the
prison and kind of understand the layout and uh see
uh see some of the different areas and then I
(37:00):
think about like two years into my research, I did
another tour, and every year I'm not sure where they're
at right now, but they were opening different areas of
the prison. And my book opens in the gymnasium, which
is where the gentlemen were sitting watching a hockey game,
(37:20):
and this is where the riot began. So the second
tour that I did, they had opened a few of
the other areas, and one of them was the gymnasium.
And honestly, I was like a kid in a candy
shop standing in that gymnasium because I had spent, you know,
so much time visualizing this, you know, cinder block, and
(37:42):
trying to find images of it, which I could never find.
So just actually being in that space was was quite
an experience for me.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Catherine, I know you are doing many things all the time.
Do you have anything coming up that we can look
forward to?
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Yeah, I'm just working on my third true crime book.
I released a second one in twenty twenty three, and
I'm going to be releasing another this new book in
twenty and twenty six. Bring a twenty twenty six and
it's about a nineteen sixty nine murder that took place
(38:22):
in Los Angeles of a Canadian and I believe we
may have actually solved this cold case. So it's a
very exciting, exciting story and I'm really looking forward to to.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Getting it out incredible, looking forward to that. Catherine, thank
you so much for doing this with us.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Thank you, it's been great.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Go Boy is a production from Campside Media in partner
with iHeart Podcasts. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Go Boy was written
and hosted by me Sam Mollins. Our producer is Rob
Lindsay of Paradox Pictures. Laine Rose is our senior producer.
(39:18):
Sound design, mix and engineering by Garrett Tiedeman. Original music
by Garrett tiedemant fact checking by Michael Kenyon Meyer. Selected
archival clips are from CBC Licensing. The book Go Boy
was written by Roger Kuran. iHeart Podcasts executive producers are
(39:39):
Lindsay Hoffman and Jennifer Bassett. Campside Media's executive producers are
Josh Dean Vanessa, Gregoriatis, Adam hoff and Matt Cher. A
special thanks to our operations team Doug Slaywyn, Ashley Lawren
Sabina Mara and Destiny Dingle. If you enjoyed Go Boy,
(39:59):
please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
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